Is It Legal To Secretly Record Your Employer?
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- Опубліковано 21 січ 2024
- We've seen a rise in employees recording themselves being fired or laid off and then posting it to social media like TikTok, Twitter, or UA-cam. And many of these termination zoom calls go viral. But is it illegal and should you do it?
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It's almost like corporations have removed the ability for their staff to trust them......
Corporations have never been trustworthy.
Right? I'm getting sick of corporations demanding trust in a space where they give none.
It is only a "buisness relation", as on the old films when a mobster had another kneeling about to kill them and say "Hey Zonny... you understand t'is only buisness... right?"
the truth is that the market is tilted against workers (too many 9 to 5ers way too little job slots) so they can do whatever they can come up with.
Almost?
My company has a NO RECORDING DEVICES policy in general. You could steal trade secrets, expose secret senior meetings, etc. however, the general punishment was “termination”. It will be interesting if financial repercussions will ensue
Ill add this little tidbit to it. If they start the call by telling you the call is being recorded, then you are free to record it as well. All parties have been notified.
I personally got a layoff in writing because after they told me the call was being recorded I ask them to hold for just a sec, then asked them to repeat what they just said. The HR lady said "The call is being recorded. Why did you want me to repeat that?" When I said "So I can get it on my recording device" She hung up on me. I then received a notice via email that I was being laid off.
Assholes. What was this wonderful company ? Call them out.
Sounds like rules for thee and not for me.
I love it! They wanted evidence but would not allow you to do the same.
Depends on the State. Some states are single party consent states.
that is only in some states.
In NC only one party needs to be aware they are being recorded. Its a one party consent state.
It's better to expose these disgusting behaviors than to let it slide. This is why companies lobby to hide these harassments under contracts.
As long as you’re prepared to never have a great job again then yeah. 🤣
If you want to live with your mom and dad for a few more years. 😂
How is being laid off or fired considered harassment?
@@cl20v87Right
@@cl20v87 It's not - they probably meant to say it's generally: Extortion, fraud, and exploitation.
I live in California and was working out of a home office. I had a hunch i was going to get laid off via a zoom call, and was prepared to ask their permissiom to record the call as soon as I saw regional and national leadership suddenly pop up on the call. I KNOW that recording the call ultimately benefitted me because i asked a couple of confirmation questions( is this for performance?? Will i receive these terms in writing?). They attempted to get me to make a rash emotional decision before the EOY deadline for bonuses( this was a Sales postion). They asked for the decision by EOD without ever sending me a written description of any options I had. I DID NOT make a decision until they put these options in writing. I think since they agreed to me recording the call and i had that recording of the discussion, they were more willing to let me negotiate the terms of the separation.
Corporations will always look for angles to screw their workers out of their best options. It's sad.
Based on my understanding you must notify all parties such as in your case to be protected in Cali?
@@_nimrod92 correct. Although the company was incorporated in a different state, I asked for permission to cover myself. Stated the names on the call and the date and then asked for permission.
Well played @famousibarra1!
@@famousibarra1 definitely well played
Your last paragraph is so true. It’s naive to believe just because they got legal department they don’t screw you. People by default should think they’re there to screw you and you have to fight so that you can protect yourself. You did a good job.
And sorry to hear about the layoff. We’ve all been there. Let’s keep positive and somethings good is going to happen. Sending positive thoughts your way.
Recording these types of interactions is going to be the new normal going forward regardless of legal jurisdictions.
If that’s true then firing via email will be the new normal.
It definitely should be. However, in contrast, uploading the video(s) to make them publicly available is another matter that will spark legal issues and might even brand some individuals "unhireable" for such adversarial conduct.
@@arcanernz I'm fine with that. There's a written record at that point.
I think most companies record these type of meetings anyway, and its in the employment agreement. So im not sure if its a problem for them to record it as well. However- Usually int he code of conduct- sharing confidential conversations is clearly against the rules. (although- if you are being fired...... its not like they can fire you again)
@@abprepboy33 was gonna say, what are you gonna do?
I live in Georgia which is a one party consent state. Back in 2014 I was laid off by my manger at a restaurant that I was a dishwasher for 3 years. I recorded the last conversation with my manager when I was laid off. My manager lied on the separation notice that I quit. A friend that I knew for several years was the owner of this restaurant and 3 other restaurants with the same name. This recording was shared with my friend. Two days later I received a corrected separation notice that I was laid off. I then went to the Georgia Department of Labor and filed for unemployment. If a friend was not an owner I would had went directly to the Department of Labor to file a complaint. Regardless of a state's recording consent laws I would record the meeting if are expected to be laid off to cover yourself. This way if they lie that you quitted your job you share the recording with your state's department of labor in filing a complaint.
I suspect this was the motivation for Ms Peachhh to record her termination call: HR was trying to make it appear that her termination was *her* fault, when it wasn't. Had they told her something far more neutral -- e.g. "The company has decided to move in a different direction, which means your position has been abolished" -- she'd look foolish posting that on social media.
Getting let go from a job for any reason other than cause is traumatic for the person it effects. Employers should minimize this trauma as far as possible by keeping things neutral. Otherwise, they can look forward to more videos like this shared online.
Was there any consequence for the manager?
@@jjones0822 other than her eating crow I don't believe so. I just went back to the back office of the restaurant 2 days later got my corrected separation notice that I was laid off. Kept on trucking to the state unemployment office.
It is honestly so dehumanizing to be fired this way. Name and shame these corporations. They need to do better for their employees.
These days, all employers need to be recorded by law. I'm simple, they record us......we can record them.
Damn right you are being recorded all the time, everytime by the Company (big bosses)!
TOTALLY AGREE. Interactions with your employer are not social, ever; they are business transactions. All business transactions should be recorded. The day of the tyrannical strawboss, bullying & lying, are coming to an end.
It is just fair play.
Amen! Funny thing is if the do something wrong they some how lost the recording or it was never record even though it was stated its recorded in the beginning.
I always record my boss! Just for my protection. But I have never and would never upload for strangers. I seriously do not want my face and my video go viral. That will make me an unreliable, untrustworthy person when I am looking for another job.
How do you to record without him noticing?
@@marcelamsss turn your camera onto record and then face the phone with the lenses up. Or do the same thing but hold your phone. Keep brightness down.
turn on the audio recorder and leave it in your pocket. ime, it worked for me in my pants pocket fine but a holster would definitely work. test it out before relying on it tho.
video... I've seen eyeglass frames that have IR cameras in them (the lens behind dark red tinted plastic line a tv remote, hiding the lens from the naked eye tho it would be visible to another IR camera).
@marcelamsss Use a recording app on your phone. If it's virtual set up a camera, or use screen record on your phone or computer.
If you work from home how do you set up the sound to be recorded? I have a headset with mic but no external speakers
What I think is horrible is the torture that Companies put people through trying to get them to quit. Rather than just firing people.
There are to advantages to the employee when that is being done. As long as you put up with the crap you will still have a job and second you could just put up with it wail looking for a new job as the worst thing you could do is be looking for a new job wail unemployed. There are a large number of companies that either wont hire people who are unemployed or have been unemployed for to long. My room mate had to fill for Social Security way to early because no employer would touch him with a ten foot poll. He was laid off because of the pandemic and by the time companies where starting to rehire its been way to long for him to get a job. He was spending 60+ hours a week applying to jobs and when he did get a rejection letter it said that his skills where out of date and he got his first after about 6 month of being laid off and after a year they really ramped up.
saves money
Due to how unemployment insurance works. Unless your layoff is due to your employer going out of business, your former employer generally pays half of what you receive from unemployment while you're still qualified. (And some jurisdictions may require them to pay all of it, depending on the amount.) Meaning they're paying for a former employee but getting nothing in return. If you leave voluntarily or are fired for cause, you don't qualify for unemployment except in very slim circumstances.
@@brandishwar That's also where the practice of the employment security people effectively working for the employer came from. The tax revenue that funds the department comes from the companies, so they'll side with the employer in virtually every case and accept assurances that evidence exists from HR reps that may not have even seen the evidence themselves. Assuming it even exists.
Keep recording. Screw these companies for thinking they can treat employees how they want without consequences. They need to know they if they do bad, they will be called out. Tired of companies acting like they’re heaven to work for but will be two faced and throw away employees
Some companies secretly record employees, so I don't find fault if some employees are turning the tables. I have heard of some companies even placing spyware and recording devices on equipment sent to employees working remotely from home.
lol tech companies have always operated with this. why are none of you people surprised at the ease of which they hired way too many people two-three years ago?
don't work for companies that rapidly hire new talent, they will churn and burn.
@@mikeydude750 I mean what bad advice. Why are you blaming the employee for seeking a job?
Here's an interesting thing, people should tell the HR folks they're being recorded. Be interesting to see if they continue the meeting. I guess if not, they'll just send a letter.
I do this. Anytime I feel like HR or management gonna come up with bs I tell them I am recording the conversation. Saved me a lot of time and trouble. They hate it but they made sure to be careful what they said around me at all times lol. Never recorded my own layoff though, would have to try that if the opportunity presents itself.
@@anthonyandrade5071 I wish I would’ve recorded countless meetings with previous companies HR to avoid the bs and kept myself as well from saying things that were not beneficial to me but nonetheless it doesn’t matter most of these places I worked at were pretty bad jobs to begin with not worth stressing for but I can see in the case of the girl that got laid off after recently being hired at Cloudfare that after so much hard work to just get on boarded to be dropped deceptively like that.
Don’t tell them. You can record it for your own purpose and if they are at fault (screw you for unemployment) you can use it to file a claim with the evidence. And it’s regardless of whether it’s legal to record it or not.
@@KittenBowl1 the video just mentioned that the evidence could get thrown out in court because it was not acquired through the proper procedures. Yes, you can push them to do things with the evidence such as try to get them to honor a verbal agreement that they hadn't pulled through with, but if it gets down to legal business... it might not fly. Granted, they'll still take a hit to their reputation, but legally nothing would be done against them if that is the only relevant evidence provided
And as mentioned, you can still get in trouble if they decide to press charges for violating some type of law (probably privacy somewhere). But if you keep it only for personal documentation and it never gets used, it really shouldn't be an issue since they aren't supposed to ever find out. Then again, crackdowns on AI generation BS can happen so... still a potential issue - but you're not using it for that, presumably, so that shouldn't be a problem either
Recorded "legally" = evidence which may be presented in court.
Recorded outside of "legally" = 'intelligence' / possibly useful information but rarely presentable in court.
To clarify something, oftentimes lay offs / terminations come with severance agreements which may include a non-disparagement clause. Posting negative info re: the company afterwards, may put your severance money at risk.
I would say No.... Companies been having the fun using employees firing them so time to expose.
LinkIn is mostly that of employees thanking the company that fired them.
It’s quite disgusting
Most corporate cringe LinkedIn content makes me physically nauseous.
Pathetic
1. Thank you for mentioning about the one or two party consent rules. Some people who may want to record their firing/layoff for clout may end up in BIG trouble if they recorded in a two-party consent state and didn’t say that this was being recorded
2. If the situation is outside of your control, like a financial crisis, or you know in your heart that you weren’t doing your job, it’s better to take the L and move on. However, if you suspect constructive dismissal, a retaliatory action, or possible discrimination, it may be good to record to protect yourself.
Bearing in mind that three quarters of all US states are one-party states. There are only 10 two-party states.
California, Florida, Maryland, Massachusetts, Montana, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Washington are straight up two-party, states. Connecticut is one party for in-person conversations and phone calls you are a participant in, but doesn't allow electronic recording of electronic communication. Oregon is one-party for phone calls but two party for in-person, but this law was recently found to be unconstitutional, which would make them a one-party state.
In all but three of these only notification is required, not consent.
So the odds are you live in a place where this is legal.
@@pjaypender1009
"In all but three of these only notification is required, not consent."
What are those 3 states?
@@pjaypender1009 The issue is, does the employer operate from one of the states that requires multiple party consent -- which a number of larger companies are going to have operations in one of them. Namely, California. Possibly Washington. You still need to check the aspects of the other party (the company you are working with/for) beforehand if you plan on utilizing the 'one party consent' option, at least if you plan on playing it safe
Who would give constructive dismissal? That would usually lead into the person being fired to beg for another chance. Or at worse if they go to work for a competitor make the competition better
When you're on a call over an application like Zoom, it is easy to record the conversation. I'm sure the employer is recording the call. Furthermore, a trick that companies do these days when a customer calls them is to include on their message to you prior to reaching a person is make the statement "This call may be recorded for training purposes." The reality is that they are taping every call with a date and time stamp along with who you are so that if there is any issues or dispute in the future they can pull up the call to use against you if applicable.
Teams too and they now have transcription ability.
That isn't what you need to be afraid of, it is computer editing that is the real dangerous.
Zoom ANNOUNCES VERY CLEARLY when recordings begin. I use it to scare my students when we do online testing lol. Employers can record your zoom interaction without you knowing but they can't use zoom to do the recording without you knowing
It's the only place to make people, companies, police and government orgs accountable in a virtual world. You better best bet, that HR is recording this from the reverse side and not telling anybody being terminated and being recorded. Always helps in court.
That is not the real danger, computer editing is were the real sickening part comes.
I didn't say that, you see, he is crazy, he deserves to get fired.
I would recommend everybody to record these conversations with your employer as it would be much easier to recall what was being said, and to expose those bad apples!
More important question (if you don't get caught recording by posting it on social media like a dumbass) is: is it RIGHT to record your employer? Is it WARRANTED?
I had bosses where it would have been absolutely warranted to record EVERYTHING that came out of their mouths because they were narcissistic liars and would say one thing today and deny they ever said that the day after.
Very true -- and not just with bosses, but any a--hole who lies to your face.
The problem is the legality of it -- it is a _criminal violation_ to record in a two-party (multi-party) state without everyone's consent, so that's something you have to be aware of. (I don't agree with such laws -- at least not in all cases -- but it is what it is.)
Agreed. It's a CYA since it's always the employee vs everyone else unless you get you basically get them to put it in writing which will never happen or someone else witnesses it too. And even with all that it's still nearly impossible to make any sort of case.
I was thinking the exact same thing, Brian! I wouldn't put myself out in the public like that where all potential employers can see me being spiteful...
Yeah, wouldn't recommend it.
Just folks note that recording and publishing are two different things. I record everything in audio, because I don't want to ask again to repeat if I don't hear it clearly.
Under the NLRA recording an employer in employment matters related to wage, hiring and organization issues is 100% legal regardless of individual state laws.
“This call is being recorded for quality assurance.”
*This call *may* be recorded for quality assurance*
Keep them guessing while still getting implied consent lol
My old manager used to literally verbally abuse me so I started recording him.. pretty much either just in my pocket or hitting record and setting my phone on the table camera up.. shits insane what these people think they can get away with saying.. glad I found your content man.. I run my own personal 3d printing business now and pretty small youtube channel.. Its a slow roll it seems but Im not going to give up.
I didnt want to get into 3d printing full time until I was making like at least 150 bucks a day.. unfortunately things didnt go as planned but I just cannot stand workin for the people that think its okay to just take advantage of their workers and talk to them and treat them like garbage.. People everywhere in ND are talking about how no one wants to work. Well this state is ridiculous. Any place talking like that has a bad employer, manager, or theyre still in the 2000s paying seriously sad wages that NO ONE could live off of. Their excuse for it is "Its meant to be a highschoolers job just to get by" but its so sad when its literally just old ladies an stuff workin it just to get by.. barely makin it by im sure, just like everyone else
*Past generations*: Literal hippies
*Also past generations*: "no oNe WaNts tO WoRk tHesE DaYs"
LONG LONG ago, before I knew what the laws were, I secretly recorded a lawyer yapping at me about some property that I had tried to purchase via 'rent to own' and over time they were trying to change the terms. I do not remember the details but when I turned the tape over to keep recording he stopped the meeting and told me to leave. Didn't say it was illegal, but was clearly upset about it. Nowadays they will sue you over that, whether you have money or not!!!
Because he f u, isn't funny they get play and then they find out they get butt hurt, because the can't con you.
Man, it's David and Goliath, if you company big tech companies and us, the small people. We get fired for nothing. In my opinion, this is pure self-defense.
That's what I am saying! I'd do it to CYA! I have trust issues because people have lying issues. And it's better to have the proof than to NOT have it.
How exactly did this help her? Her ass is still fired. Now she just looks like a problem employee.
In physical self-defense it is an affirmative defense to argue "yes, I did threaten or use deadly force against the accuser, BUT I am privileged to do so because [reasons]." The reasons have to be good ones AND the burden of proof shifts to the accused, but the core principle is that in some circumstances a nominally illegal act can be justified.
Whether that is true for termination meetings in all party consent states is something I don't know, but it makes sense that it ought to be, particularly if you have strong evidence of an illegal firing or one marked by defamation and don't expect the employer to be honest (particularly if there are multiple managers/HR types on the call who might conspire to be each other's witness that nothing untoward was said, and it's just you on your end).
Still risky though (again, the burden can shift to you) and better to state your intent to record the conversation and let whatever happens, happen. But definitely don't post on social media.
I get why people record it because they feel that the layoffs are unfair. I also don’t necessarily think it is wrong to protect yourself if you feel you are being targeted unfairly. That being said loading it to TikTok will probably put a large red flag on hiring you.
It could, unless your TikTok/Social Media is set to Private & they can't view it unless they follow you (which you wouldn't allow anyways)
This video covers the most basic things but there's a looooot of space for manipulation and bending that's missing here, so let me give you some perspective. I've had to challenge local judges whom I have recorded (in Europe) so I've had to really delved deep into this. IANAL, this is not legal advice, etc.
First of all, indeed there are one-party consent jurisdictions and two-party consent jurisdictions as far as recording goes; but then there's the question of uploading or in general "publishing". In some places, you have a one-party consent requirement for recording, but may NOT publish without two-party consent. In other places, you have a two-party consent requirement for recording, but there is no law at all about publishing, because the legal system assumes that any recording you've made that is legal, is going to have had both parties consent to it already. So technically, you could record in a one-party consent jurisdiction, and then drive through the border to a two-party jurisdiction, and upload there. Because the first jurisdiction's domain of power ends at the border, you are not breaking the law of the first jurisdiction if you upload outside of its geographical area. So the trick is to upload or publish in a geographical area which does not have restrictions on publishing, only restrictions on recording.
This means to me that telework really blew this one open because it might be very difficult to prove *where* you made a specific recording, especially if you just recorded the video using a screen grabber, like OBS, which only records what's on your screen and not your surroundings. Your screen might have been located anywhere in the world, including legally interesting places like Germany, Austria, Hungary, Poland, and so on. It would be hard to prove your location at the time of the recording to you. Even with logging of IP addresses, you can just say you used a VPN to connect to your home network and you dialled into the meeting out of that.
You'll find that in Europe a lot of people don't understand one-party consent. Even lawyers and judges and police officers don't understand one-party consent: they strongly believe that criminal law says you cannot secretly record at all, and you have to argue with them for a while, cite the exact laws, and so on. Yes, that is correct: often judges don't understand laws they talk about and go by whatever BS they heard on Judge Judy or CSI. People are stupid no matter what line of work they're in.
Then there's the question of what "publish" even means. So for example, making recordings available during a court case does not count as publishing in some jurisdiction. This is especially the case in *criminal* cases where the motto is often "any and all proof is admitted"; the law regarding how criminal justice cases are carried out is very, very different from country to country. Sometimes, if a judge *orders* you to provide a recording for use in the case, you are free of any legal consequences with regards to publishing without the consent of the other party.
While in some cases you may not publish a recording without the consent of the other party, you are well in your right to make an exacting transcript - one which includes every mispronounciation, partial word, phlegm regurgitation, and cough - and publish that anywhere you wish. I did this in a specific case in a second-instance court where I posited that the first-instance judge broke the law by calling me on the phone and convincing me to give up my rights during a case. My lawyer included the transcript and said that "the recording is available should it be necessary". So, specifically, there is no foul in saying the recording is *available*, if a judge orders you to make it available then it is out of your hands and you are not at fault for *publishing* it. That transcript was enough to convince the second instance judge that the first instance judge disregarded my rights.
This also carries over to publishing: you can take the transcript, say you have a recording ready to go, and you're perfectly right to do so. No one will sue you for libel, because in the worst case scenario you can produce the recording to verify the authenticity of the transcript. Remember that in court it's your word against theirs, however, if you have the recording, then it's their word, against your word + your recording. Most judges will not even need to check the recording and they'll just skip the whole quandry and throw out the libel case.
Now comes the question of: what if you really want to upload the recording? AI comes to the rescue. As long as you're not uploading their voice or face, you are not actually uploading *a recording of* the other party. So, blur out the face, or use generative AI to give it a watercolor stroke style, and suddenly it's not *their likeness*, it's a *drawing of* their likeness. Similarly, use an AI voice changer on their voice and it's not *their voice* if suddenly they have a slightly french accent or sound like Arnold Schwarzenegger. You can explain in the video that for legal reasons you had to slightly change the voice and the facial likeness of the other party so that it would be legal to upload this video. This stuff is still pretty believable and people will understand that you had to do this to CYA.
I believe that the legal argument in this last one is that while a recording creates irrefutable proof that a person said a specific thing, if you use a voice changer it is "in the eye of the beholder" whether or not to believe that the person whose voice was changed actually said this. That is, it's up to the listener whether they believe that you just used a slightly modified recording, or whether you fully generated this out of thin air and it's all lies. So, given that there's always the option that the voice-changed recording is all lies, the person in question does not have an irrefutable recording of themselves uploaded without their consent.
In my opinion, the advent of AI and voice changing has done away with any restrictions on uploading this sort of stuff, and case law will take at least a decade to catch up to this.
There is another legal trick. It pays to have your own website for your professional services which has its own Terms of Service. Therein you can hide information that you will be recording any and all future recordings. Have a representative of the company hiring you schedule a meeting with you through a calendar scheduling function located on your website, where they obviously get a popup saying that by using the website they accept the ToS. Legally, it can be argued that the company rep who accepted the ToS did so in the name of the company, and should have consulted their legal dept or informed the rest of the company about the contents of the ToS. Just like you accept the ToS of your cable company when you visit their website. At this point you can put yourself in the clear for any sort of recording, publishing, uploading, etc, but the legal arguments behind that are not known to me too well, and I suggest doing some research.
Of course, none of this is legal advice, I am not a lawyer, and you should seek legal advice on everything I said. I'm just telling you what happened to me specifically in my situation and what my experience is researching this and considering all options open to the person makin the recording.
Ages ago, in the naughts, I posted something like “another day another dollar” to Facebook. Holy hell! My boss was looking and had a fit! Learned quickly to limit, restrict, and then, get an alias 😂
Another thing to consider here. Is that some states with a 1-party consent law. Also have laws that still require businesses and government entities to provide notice that there is recording (audio or video). Meanwhile, private citizens not currently representing a company do not. So, if your employer wants you to do a conference call OFF THE CLOCK. Which is a strong indicator of getting laid off. You are a private citizen and not beholden. However, if the company fires you whilst on the clock. You are currently representing the company. And in some states. That would require you to notify everyone of the recording. Even if it's an internal conversation within the company. My cousin fell victim to that legality a few years back. As he was on the clock and recorded the conversation. And used it for evidence in a wrongful termination lawsuit. He won the lawsuit. But then the company pressed charges for recording without consent. As he was on the clock and acting as a business at the time. So he won money. But then he got a felony and went to prison, and lost a chunk of his settlement. Now he can't get a decent job due to the felony. He regrets his refusal to consult a lawyer before doing what he did.
Tread carefully.
You can guarantee that your employer is recording the meeting if they're firing you or laying you off. There are times when a company has legitimate reasons to make cuts, but most of the time it's for petty nonsense. If you live in an "at will" state you can be let go for any reason with no explanation. If your supervisor just doesn't your personality they can let you go even if you're doing a good job, this is why there's zero employee loyalty these days.
Everybody refers to it as being laid off but many of these people were fired. Big difference
Just be sure you know the laws about recording in your state. Two party states suck.
Exactly! Different states have different laws. In my state, you only need 1 party to agree to recording and you count as that party. Also, you do not have to inform any of the other parties that you’re recording them.
@@mbagirl9567same my current state Indiana is a one party and my previous state ND was also a one party.
I think a cool way to get by would be if they tell you the call is being recorded, just say "ok i consent to the recording of this interaction."
I think it's the same in my country. Two recordings require two consents for each.
Two party is a double sword, If they record you and not tell you, there f and more important company Computer editing excuse and don't think they will not use it, they will.
"This call may be recorded for training and quality assurance"
Legal implied consent in any state
Working from home is definitely gonna come under more fire. I don't think any company has the power to say "you can't record us in your own home". However, under "their house" is perhaps where things get spicy.
It doesn't have anything to do with whether on company property or your own property/home. It will come down to whether the jurisdiction that you live in has 2 party consent or 1 party consent. You can't use the argument "In my home, everything is recorded and I just happened to put you on speakerphone which recorded the entire conversation" as the other party in a 2-party consent jurisdiction wasn't aware that they were being recorded.
@@johnwong9128 this makes sense. It seems you can record without consent in your own home but only if it's for you yourself to listen to it later on (self use). If you do it and distribute, share, try to use it in court, etc., it comes down to 1 party or 2 party consent.
If you are in a state that is not a one party state one way to get over that two party requirement is to record for yourself, then change the recording into a transcript as notes. That way you basically have meeting notes. Next send a meeting follow up email right after your meeting or termination with your meeting notes included in your email to your current or previous employer. Only include the important or relevant information. Also, always keep consistent personal notes/documentation regardless if your environment is positive or negative. You can be proactive and make documenting monthly or weekly work notes a habit in case something does occur.
The problem is if the company or the people in the meeting said "we never said that" from your "meeting notes" and you can't just say "yes you did since I recorded it"
@@johnwong9128 They won't say that because you will follow up right after the meeting. If they say they never said that after some time has passed your notes are time stamped through your email. You can also bring a notebook and paper to show you are taking notes, and ask questions during the meeting if you are worried about that. However it is unlikely they will respond or challenge you if you send a timely follow up because y'all would have just spoke. To me a timely follow up is anywhere between immediately after the meeting to up to 3 days later. You can also cc other people who were there if they were relevant. Like if you met with a neutral third party, or multiple supervisors.
@@soufwesthoustontx the thing with "notes" is that the person "taking" notes can write anything whereas a audio recording generally is more difficult to alter. For example, in a 2 party jurisdiction, you can record me saying that you're fired for gross incompetence and theft and then have the recording transcribed and say that "you were taking notes" and even email it to me after the meeting but I can still deny ever having said it. With a audio recording, it is a lot more difficult to deny it.
@@johnwong9128 The whole purpose of a meeting follow up is to have written documentation of what was discussed in a meeting. You send meeting follow ups right after the meeting in which any disagreement would be discussed and documented. You actively take notes during the meeting and can state that during the meeting and follow up with a meeting follow up right after. Not weeks after or after something escalated. Also if you use a note taking app or even a word doc your notes will be time stamped. It's no different than when you text someone something in the moment and that conversation being used for evidence later on.
@@soufwesthoustontxyou aren't getting my point that taking "notes" and even sending it right after the meeting, the person can still say "I never said that". Using a "note taking" or "transcribing" app is "recording" and still requires the necessary consent so in a 1 party consent jurisdiction, you're fine but in a 2 party consent jurisdiction, you need the other party's permission. Even if lying about the use of transcription software/app and saying that you manually took down notes which doesn't require permission, it may lead to "I never said that" even if sent "immediately" after the meeting. Time stamps would either not prove anything since it would show that it was illegally "recorded" or if it were manually taken as notes, it would still lead to "I never said that at that time". Sending the "notes" a few minutes or an hour after the meeting doesn't stop the person from saying "I never said that" which the other person may reply "but I was taking notes" and then the person could/would reply "yes and I "took notes" also where I have you..." (specifying something which never happened).
Just an FYI - You may think that recording your boss doing something sketchy will slow you to have a Perry Mason moment down the road when you can catch him in a lie. Real life doesn’t work like that. They will find a way to overlook the lie because the boss is more valuable to the company than you are.
Or it will increase the size of your settlement when they calculate the damage to the “Brand” if it goes public.
Companies rely on being able to bully the employee into submission. Have as much ammunition as you can. This isn’t for “I hope the senior managers see it my way” type of scenarios.
Basically you will negotiate a better separation at best
@@utubes720 do you really think that one woman looked good? no she looked petulant, whiny, and arrogant. the company was right to get rid of her. if you record your own layoff/termination, you look like the jerk who deserved to be fired.
Record whatever you can. I almost always text my boss even when I call in sick.
I have never recorded a shitty ass employer and it's HR Cronies but I will start to in the near future! You need to protect yourself against these greedy, lying, shady, and unscrupulous employer, so if you need to sue them!!
As long as you inform them you're recording it should be good. But the bad thing about letting them know you're recording is that they are careful about what they will be saying and not gonna really tell you what they're gonna say.
However,I would never post it on social media. I hate those platforms.
I feel like a this depends on one or two party consent state
Thank you for posting this. So important that people know the specific laws in their state.
Short answer: It depends. If you live in a state like mine, only one party needs to be aware that recording is happening, and, you being the one who is recording, are that party. So yes, generally speaking (there are of course exceptions) I can record any call / etc I receive without issue. Some states I believe require all parties to know they are being recorded. This is why telemarketers, customer service reps, etc, the automated system tells you that your call "may be recorded for training purposes" -- it's easier to just tell everyone they might be recorded when you might be calling someone in a state where it is required for all parties to know, than it is have the system be "smart" and only tell the people who need to know they're being recorded. I'm willing to bet that's why meeting software like Zoom does the same -- easier to cover the worst case scenario for everyone than try to only tell those you need to. As soon as you have logic in a programmed system, you're opening the door for mistakes and in this case, mistakes could cost $$$$$$$$.
Long answer: It depends. Before you do something like plaster a recording on the internet, at least check with a lawyer about any pitfalls that might arise from it.
Don’t always assume a recording will make you look good. In a court, anything can and will be used against you.
Or in a new job interview
Use against, also means both.
Nowadays, many employers search a candidates social media accounts prior to making a job offer. I'm pretty sure anyone that has done this will not be offered employment. No company wants to potentially be involved in negative postings.
Always very informative videos!
In Victoria, Australia, only if they consent to it. Surveillance Devices Act 1999
It's not illegal if your state is one-party recording, which mine is. I record all my interactions with management on my phone, just don't trust a lot of them anymore.
Ooh. You should probably look for a new job. Sounds like a toxic work place.
@@navyreviewer Easier said than done. I have interviews lined up but they always offer shitty pay and won't negotiate. I'm thinking about just getting into something different entirely. The IT market is trash right now.
@stonesfan285 ah IT. Say no more. Many years ago I was in IT. It sucked then. I've hired many former IT people. They all say it's gotten worse, and they want out. Bad pay, unrealistic demands, toxic work place, saturated market. I personally eventually landed in auto repair. If you do really want out, I suggest plumbing or welding. I know it isn't chic, and it is hard work. It may even require moving. The culture shock can also be neck snapping. On the other hand, the time/money investment can be very low. Many places will hire no experience people right off the street and train them. If they're willing to learn. The hours can suck, especially for plumbing where youre "on call " but im sure you're used to that. The pay, howere, can be very good.
@@navyreviewer Funny you should say that. I tried to be a steamfitter prior to this and it just wasn't for me. I gave up four years of my life dealing with abuse people who wouldn't teach me anything and I never got indentured. Every time I would ask, they would just lay me off.
@stonesfan285 sorry to hear that didn't work out. I hope you do find a job you enjoy and pays the bills, IT or not.
The one party consent states include Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Connecticut, District of Columbia, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, West Virginia, Wisconsin, and Wyoming.
Love your videos, sir!
record whatever you want, don't put it on social media but hold on to it in case it comes in handy. and don't sign nothing.
A few other points...
* Watch any types of other professional agreements, privacy contracts, etc. which you may have signed or agreed to. Note many of these are checkboxes on electronic HR forms.
* Watch for any type of regulated industry. Many have privacy clauses which extended to employee information as well as patient/customer privacy.
* Understand if you publish this, employers can easily give you bad references -- which are perfectly truthful ("She recorded a private HR meeting and posted it") -- or send the video/link to potential employers.
If I think you are being fired unfairly (see a lawyer and record it or have a witness) However, there is no reason to post it. If there is a lawsuit, let your lawyer deal with it.
Accepting a severance agreement may (probably) have a clause relating to releasing the recordings in some complicated language you should have read twice.
Wow. No lie I was just thinking about this earlier today at work and was wondering if you had ever posted a video about this. This is definitely a sign. Thank you!
It isn't just the law here. Even if the law allows, corporate policy might not. So if you record the call in violation of that policy, and you're being laid off, they could use that policy to fight an unemployment claim if they discover the recording - e.g. because you posted it to TIkTok, Instagram, Reddit, etc... So if you're going to record the conversation, keep it confidential unless you have a valid reason to disclose it - and wanting exposure on TikTok isn't valid reason.
Yeah, I think you should do it! Screw these corporations!!!
It's interesting to see these types of videos of layoffs, but I wouldn't want to.
I recorded in 2009. The recording got my unemployment approved. Yes, it is legal to record, if you and the employer are in 1 party states. Or if they inform you that the meeting is being audio/video recorded.
I'm really enjoying your videos Brian. Thank you ;-)
Glad you like them!
My employer illegally discriminated against me in my termination interview. They listed off every symptom of autism and acted like they were doing me a favour by getting rid of me. It was awful.
In california, if I remeber it correctly, you can still record someone without his or her consent if it was a "battery" case or a white collar crime.
A Life After Layoff is right. In the last lawsuit from CSULA vs its employee on a sex harsment case, the employee sercertly recorded the meeting and the employee was charged 6000 dollar for not having the other party's consent(possibily CSULA top offical). However, she still recevied million of settlement from that.
Now I wonder if I can accidentally record them. As in they are calling me during a public stream on twitch and everybody hears it. Mostly, I am in California and these bosses out here trying to pull some illegal things all the time and it ends up being your word versus theirs. One boss tried to (California) tried to pull the Use it or Lose it for Vacation hours. Another one said I can't call out sick unless it is for Doctor's Apt or Surgeries. And it ended up being counted as an unexcused absence and wasn't paid. And you have to call them and they have to answer, no emailing no texting no documented trails so they can deny you calling out sick.
I need to correct you on the two-party state laws. Yes you can't present recorded evidence as an offense. However, if you are a defendant or the company you are suing lies and your recorded evidences actually points out they just lied under oath. Recorded evidence is automatically accepted under the threat/rights doctrine.
Keep in mind the recording can only EVER be presented after the cross examination. One cannot record a person doing a bad, then run straight to the courts.
6:24 I did not have "snippets of Much Ado About Nothing on layoff videos" on my bingo card for 2024. Great video and that was a delightful surprise as a cherry on top. Thanks for posting.
If a company in a 2 party state calls you in a 1 party state, your states rules apply; you only have to follow the rules where you live, you are free to record.
If a company in a 1 party state calls you in a 2 party state, your states rules apply; they must follow the rules where you live and get your consent before they record you.
The law favors the more strict interpretation in favor of the customer.
It depends on the state. Some states it’s illegal to record exit interviews/terminations if both parties don’t agree to.
Record away ladies and gentlemen, these companies have more than enough protections. If you choose to show it before you have received a new role is of course your choice. We don't have to just keep accepting these companies treating us as fodder.
I hope you see this. If you record your being fired call or in person. If the company is doing mass layoffs and they tell everyone the reason for termination is performance and obviously not 15% in one year is under performing then it is with cause. So where I live it’s no unemployment insurance for with cause. If they are going to try that to avoid severance and screw you out of insurance that you pay for then the recoding should be allowed. Lying to try to avoid to pay severance should be a criminal offence. It is insurance fraud against the employee.
I would not post it, but it may not be a bad idea to have a record of the event. Having a record of the actual conversation could be a good form of protection in a legal dispute. Here in Québec you can record any conversation you are part of.
It is all of Canada that has 1-party consent.
QUESTION: If you think that you are about to be fired, can you have a lawyer (that reads your contract) included in the call, to make sure that your employer will not back out of any agreed compensation?
In some cases employers ask people to sign documents (they call them formalities, like to return equipment, etc.) to wave all rights to compensation, stocks and lost wages, and many time people are not informed for what the document is for (fine print), or are meant to just wave all possible legal actions (like getting fired when you are sick, etc).
I say yes. HR and corp needs to learn, how you treat your workers should serve as a warning to excellent employees and potential clients to avoid them. If laws will not protect workers, then they should be held account.
Idc if it’s illegal or not , I’m doing it ! I started recording the toxicity in these work environments since 2019. I have not uploaded it to social media but I can definitely understand how it gets there . I’m convinced people have to be embarrassed to do better . You have people unaliving themselves for these jobs so yes people are going to make recordings normal . The days of EEOC taking to long to investigate and then when they do all they do in most cases is side with the toxic employer by giving you a right to sue letter . In my state it’s legal & even if it wasn’t, I’d do it anyway!
I created a post of FB some years ago about my redundancy. Someone 'grassed' on me from the company what I had done and my manager called me to ask me to take it down. I removed it on that day and have learned my lesson. In terms of recording your lay off or redundancy in the UK, I've no idea if it's legal or not.
This has nothing to do directly with the point of this video, but generally, if a company buys an office space, which already has camera’s in place pointing toward the desks, that does not mean they can legally use them in the EU. If this was not mentioned in the agreement they had previously signed, then most certainly not. & the last thing u want to do is make all of your employees sign a piece of paper asking them if it’s okay to record them during working hours.
I mean you could, but probably best to discuss such things with management & the shareholders beforehand.
How this reflects back to recording your employer is simple, read an agreement before you sign an agreement. & publishing it on social media seems like a bad idea. If you want to record it sneakily for yourself to go over the things that were said afterwards, sure. Employers will cover their own backs with a team of legal experts, so you should take some steps to protect yourself as well imo.
Great video!
Glad you enjoyed it
It depends on the country if it is legal to record meetings without agreement of the participants.
In Cali, you have to ask for permission. Two party consent.
Double edged sword.
If you don’t have permission, end the call and get all of the info in writing. This helps to protect yourself.
Looked through many topics of your videos. If you could post one on ageism from a receuiters/employers pov, i would appreciate it. Not much that can be done about it, but be nice to help understand. Thank you!
Heads up I'm not a lawyer but, From what I've seen the laws governing recorded conversations are regulated by the state where the recording was made. Meaning that if you're in TX and call CA you are allowed to use single party consent.
If employers try to stop recording the next step is people naming the people doing the termination and having a url to the managers linkedin.
Section 184 of the Criminal Code of Canada states that recording private conversations is legal as long as one of the parties that is recording the conversation (which could be you) is involved in the call or conversation and consents to the recording. This is called a “one party consent” exception.
I think the recording consent laws have to do with admissibility in court not if you can do it. So if you record in a two party consent state and then bring a lawsuit against them then that recording is inadmissible. I could be wrong but that’s how I understand it
I am currently in a bizarre situation. I was laid off at the end of November, but then they asked me to stick around until the end of March.
I'm in Texas. Like many States, Texas is a "single party" State - meaning that only one party to a conversation has to be aware that it is being recorded for it to be legal & admissible in court. Companies may have policies against it, which is convenient for them if they are violating the law but easily overruled in court or EEOC proceedings.
I have been recording phone calls and meetings lately because you never really know when you might need that information. In my state, only one person needs to consent to recording. I'm not going to go uploading it. However, if I ever need to contest what someone said, I have evidence.
Related, if you want to store these "safely" put them on an password protected encrypted drive. You can still be ordered to open an encrypted drive but it keeps them from being immediately visible.
Self curiosity. What type of device do you use? Are you just using your phone? I find my phone doesn't have enough space to go for very long. I use the default recording feature on the camera. Unless there is some software for android I should look into. Just looking for effective but not so obvious device suggestions. Thanks.
@@TheNewbSauce I think my earlier comment was removed. I just use my phone with an audio recorder. Audio recording uses like 10x less memory. On the computer, I just use OBS.
Wiretap laws differ by state. Some are only one party consent.
They are probably going to add a retroactive non recording and posting clause to severance agreements.
I'm of two minds on this, on one hand showing that companies can be exploitive and dishonest about things is important. On the other hand one has to wonder how this might hurt peoples chance of finding other employment.
For the most part, you sign a non-disclosure and confidentiality contract when you take a job. That means that the company has a legal contract with you that you cannot release confidential interactions (a meeting with your employer) to the public (e.g., social media).
However, if you state to the employer that you want the call recorded without specifically saying you are the one recording it and insist that you will not stay on the call if they don't record it, then if they say yes, you can record it too.
This should be useable in a court of law if you think you qualify for a wrongful termination suit. I doubt that would still protect you from posting it on social media.
Funny you say that because almost every manager I have seen in food service has publicly talked about their meetings and write ups as if nothing is off either with it.
At 4.25 you said Delaware even though it wasn’t on the list, was that a mistake or was it actually a 2 party state
Over state lines, in terms of a legal context digitally, if the employer is in a separate state it is a federal matter, and federally one party consent makes it legal to record people. It is not a criminal offense, and damage is still purely a civil matter but so long as you don't make defamatory statements, "exposing" them is not unlawful. Look into implied consent as well, if they record you dont need to tell them you're recording them. Also look up implied consent.
😁 In Canada it's a one party consent. I record all meetings. They are coming in handy in a Human Rights claim right now.
I live in a one person consent state by law, however m my company send out a policy update which prohibits the use of recording. Can they do this? My coworker was terminated in person, without any representation or proof of what they had said to her. If I’m ever in this situation, can I still record?
Isn’t it funny that the NSA/Government, that is supposed to work for us, can record anything “it” wants but the citizens have to dance around the concept depending upon a made up line on a map whether or not we can record a conversation that we are a part of?
Note that if your contract states your work activities may be recorded or monitored, then both you and your employer have consented to recording.
I worked for a community childcare sector. I wish i had recorded because they said if you dont go we will destory you and make fake claims against you... and we will make sure your life is reuined.
It depends on state law in your jurisdiction.
The whole recording liability thing is ridiculous. One can also make the argument that for business purposes all meetings should be recorded, including terminations. But this argument is not about that. it’s not about businesses doing the right thing ever. It’s allowing businesses to crap on their current and former employees and getting away with it. Employees should be allowed to protect themselves. Businesses shouldn’t have any legal leeway on recordings. Keeping a recording private is one thing, but if pictures are allowed, recordings should be too.
What if you have audio only and disguise your voice and post it on an account that cannot be traced to you?
thanks for bring this topic up
The employer records in interviews. It used to be that CEOs where shamed for lay offs.
Let’s bring shaming back. That would be great.
Is it legal ? Depends on the law of the the country you're in and state law that may apply.
In many countries employees may have signed a confidentiality agreement and you make break that undertaking by recording the layoff and posting it, but thats not the same of doing something illegal. Your video makes an important point because people are remote working it depends where they are at the time.
It's as if you watched the video.... 😱
I would say it is a good idea to record yourself getting fired. If the employer is sacking someone for an illegal reason then you have evidence. But my experience is that the employer will generally make up some excuse involving "work performance" whilst being vague as possible. Getting sacked via an online call is degrading, whatever happened to terminating an employee in person?