Suns Fire Frank Vogel and the NBA Star Coaching Carousel | The Bill Simmons Podcast
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- Опубліковано 9 тра 2024
- The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Joe House and Wosny Lambre to discuss the Suns firing Frank Vogel.
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That Bradley Beal trade was easy to see would be a train wreck ahead of time.
Wiz dump salary in Beal then add another salary dump in Poole.
@@marcusgarvey6231 No. It wasn't salary dump on Poole. Their organization was dumb enough to believe that Poole was a top player.
I love how bill use to hate on doc but since he was on his pod he’s acting like doc was a great coach. Like poor doc he got the bucks job instead of suns or lakers are open now. Bill stop being two faced face it doc is lucky he got a job . He’s been a big playoff choker / excuse maker the past 15 years. Plus bucs job is better then suns and lakers
Doc gets treated with kid gloves and it makes no sense
Ok tko
He did the same with Kyrie. Called him overrated on the Cavs, then acted like the Celtics got the second best PG in the league, and then spent years trash talking him once he forced his way out. You can go down the list. Hell, even a nobody like Jae Crowder got the Bill Simmons treatment. "Can you believe this guy is coming off the bench? One of the best 3 and D players in the league!" to "Why is the dumpster fire still in the league" the next year. Bill as big of a homer as Stephen A, but at least Bill watches basketball.
Never underestimate Bill’s ability to somehow turn any topic into a diss on Lebron
While making fun of Skip for doing basically the same thing
Thanks, you prevented me from wasting 12 minutes of my life.
I misunderstood lebron when he said not1, not 2, not 3....not 8...when he went to Miami. Lebron was talking about coaches and not championship.
Even though Miami never changed coaches 😂
Still more rings this decade alone than the Celtics this decade and last lmaooo
Oh I see!!! Got it
@@chr1sj151 he wanted spoltra fired but Riley has balls and told him no.
Well done 😂 I love LeBron but this is funny af
What's the common thread of all those players who've had the most coaches? They're the stars from a decade ago, the mercenaries out to form superteams and take shortcuts to the finals. The guys who never manned up, shouldered a little blame, or sufferring a little self-reflection to feed a competitive fire and come back stronger. They'd rather leave and try their hand somewhere else. These are the stars who were coddled and catered to their entire careers. I'm exactly 0% surprised at the names on that list.
Lebron has 4 rings. Lebron has 4 Finals MVP'S. He has more rings than 97 of the 113 NBA players in the hall of fame. Your little diatribe doesn't change any of that. And no one who has ever coached Lebron has been as successful without him. Not Mike Brown. Not Ty Lue. Not Spoelstra. Not Blatt. Not Vogel. And Ham won't be either.
@@thomascrowniii1693 And yet Lebron will never be the GOAT that he calls himself.
@shorewall He doesn't have to be. GOAT is a matter of OPINION. The FACTS are that there are 97 players who he has more rings than in the HOF and they include Doc, Bird, Moses, Ewing, Malone, Stockton, West, Wilt, Hakeem, Barkley and about 80 other guys who are the best players in the history of their respective franchises.
@poorchris No one care about people who don't know sh!t about basketball. Kyrie missed the playoffs every year before he played with Lebron and hasn't been past the second round since.
And Lebron has been the favorite in the Finals 3 times and only lost one of them. He was the favorite against Dallas. The Heat weren't the favorite against the Spurs the second time and the Cavs were never the favorite against the Warriors. Stop lying and stick to the FACTS until then 🤫
Then how does Booker make sense on the list? He's only played for one franchise yet he's higher than LeBron on the list.
Bill is on a roll this whole video!
if you have to rely on a coach to bring a NBA team together, you are F#$KING doomed
Counterpoint: Doc in BOS. He kinda killed it with that team.
@@ericpeters0n What did he do? He was the coach for years. They won when they made a superteam in an era with no superteams.
@@ericpeters0n Those guys in Boston came together by themselves because they were desperate to get a title. It lasted 2 seasons. The only reason why you noticed doc in those years was because a team with 4 all famers was continuously going to game 7 against mediocre teams and was never able to win a series convincingly.
Looking back to the ATL years, I actually really like Bud for PHX
Denver is not a deep team.
Wild narrative; Jokic has never played with an all star...
Poor Doc? Rivers has choked his way to multiple jobs and millions of dollars. I have never seen a grown man offer so many excuses for not getting the job done.
The suns thing isn't that hard to figure out. Same with the Lakers. Neither team is that good. They have defensive passengers, LA is crippled by trying to run their offence through Lebron who dumps the ball at the end of the shot clock and turned it over too much. He shot 7/23 in the 4th quarters. All four games were close and their best players didn't show up. Blaming Ham is bullshit and typical of Lebron to not take any accountability. The Suns had no point guard all year and their best players barely played together. All three are Iso players who are not great off the ball. Never mind they tried to have KD play centre. Last I checked its AD, KD, Booker, Lebron and Beal making like 40 plus million a year. They didn't get results. It's hilarious to hear Woz making excuses for Lebron. HE SHOT 7/23 IN THE 4TH AND MISSED A WIDE OPEN THREE TO WIN THE GAME IN GAME 2. But yeah let's blame the fuckin role players.
How did a conversation about KD having the most coaches in the last 10 years and him killing yet another coach turn into a Lakers/LeBron trolling/slanderfest?
Seriously... but those are the strays you catch when you're in the GOAT convo.
Because KD is following in Lebron's footsteps. He is doing things he hath seen the master do.
I love Lebron so much I named my first child after him and I'm white
it ain't slander if it's true
@@shorewalland lebron is following Kobe
It’s complicated.. some reporting says Frank lost the team mid-season. From the outside the Suns problems clearly were due to roster construction. Suns got too many guys 6’3-6’4-ish who all do the same thing. It killed them in the playoffs. James Jones won’t get fired cause he’s got so much clout in the league. Frank took an undeserving L from the outside, but none of us were in that locker
If he lost the locker room, it's because of the roster they got. You got KD and Beal, who are losers. That's two out of their Big 3. No one in that front office cares about fit, or fight, or hustle. Look at the Knicks, look at the Wolves, look at OKC. Most of the teams that are advancing in the playoffs look like they want to be there.
And in the end, Vogel got fired because they got sodomized by this Buzzsaw of a Wolves team. If they won and went further, then I don't think he gets fired. Vogel is the scapegoat, no matter what anyone says. It's like saying that Adrian Griffin lost the Bucks locker room, but they did better with him as coach then with Doc!
Both Frank and the roster were the problem. Trust me it was both.
@@shorewallyou kids just come on here to type rubbish . How can you call two grown men you dont know losers ? Yall r some sheep smh
@@shorewall there is no coach in the world who could take Durant to the finals unless the roster was already the best team ever assembled before he got there. beal is a good player on a bad team guy. booker is overrated at this point.
Shut up guy
Suns did Frank wrong man ain’t no way around it.
That’s true but did you really think Vogel was gone be the type of headcoach to put the Suns over the top?
@RonJP-pm7jp it's mostly the roster, not the coach. Terrible team building, the man pleaded for a point guard.
He has 4 years left on his contract....he just won the lottery.
Really? Name one adjustment Vogel made on either end of the floor from game 1 to game 4. I'll wait...
@@thomascrowniii1693not to mention them barely having an offense to speak of. You shouldn’t have the 10th best offense with that roster. Having a bad defense is understandable to blame on roster construction but that offense sucked because of the coach more than any lack of PG. booker kd and Beal provide enough passing to have a great offense with a good coach. Look at Philly. No one thought they had a traditional point guard and and look how he improved their play with good coaching.
Ishbia is quickly becoming the Dan Snyder of the NBA. Don't forget Isiah has his ear.
David Tepper
Trae to Brooklyn? Orlando makes more sense for position and they have Paolo to build around
Bill was calling Doc a bad coach for years and spent all last season and the summer complaining about Mazulla.
Is insane how quicly they dismiss a great coach like Igor Kokoshov. Ask Luka Dončić how is Igor as a coach.
Nba coaching musical chairs really off putting ..if I had a team I'd pick someone with no baggage .
Booker is a overpaid role player. And nobody seems to accept it. He can produce sensationell stats, when it doesn`t matter. But never ever delievers, when it matters the most. In elimination games, he is nowhere to be seen, period.
Sure he is, didn't you see him shove a guy in the back and cripple an old man? Go watch the tape again, Book shove is what got that knee. Bush league.
I remember when Bill Russell had two coaches-Red and himself
Coach Bud is a really good coach but it seems like he's good at setting up a system but he's not good at making adjustments when Plan A goes wrong. I always feel like people aren't specific enough when they talk about if a coach is "good" or not, I think of the 3 main coaching skills as 1) good at planning 2) good at adjusting to the game or talent 3) connecting with/inspiring players. I've always thought that to be a good coach you had to be great at at least one of those, and to be a great coach be good at all 3.
I think if the team galvanizes around Booker like the Suns did a few years ago during the Finals run, it will work. Booker isn't the type of guy though to TAKE the reigns, but he's happy to lead if they're given to him
how does tatum have 2? stevens, ime, joe mazz
Tatum is at 3 coaches right? Brad, Ime, and Joe
These stars are not winners man. Talent wise its through the roof..but the intangibles are just lacking. They're so soft and weak and dont buy into any coaching philosophy at all. They dont wanna win..they won at life financially wise but that's probably about it
Is that Bubba the Love Sponge in the middle 😂
BS with some subtle JJ coaching zingers on recent pods. I like JJ but I’m always here for Bill’s pettiness. It’s great.
AA and just remember Fitz brought out the best of players before
Rather than Maverick pretending, I'd rather hire professional actor Adrien Brody, who did a great job playing Pat Riley on the Lakers HBO TV show.
That'll solve it lol.
Congratz to coach Bud for getting that $50m contract and props to Frank for walking away with $30m.
Firing Vogal did not have immediate consequences for Lebron.
But it has led to this comment from skip.
Which is a kind of perfect and beatiful stinger lol.
Tatums had 3 coaches tho Brad udoka and mazulla
Kat has had a ton of coaches also.
Booker(along with KD) clearly had Monty Williams fired.
Monty Williams, the guy coaching in Detroit? The guy who kept on losing and losing and losing? They paid him a 72 million dollar contract my guy, otherwise Detroit would fire his ass too. That's like CEO money! He landed on his feet, relax.
@@chiggsytube That's nice, but it has nothing to do with what I said, lol. I love the relax part at the end as if I'm screaming this. Nice try little man. 👍
Brad stevens, Eme, and Joe are somehow only 2 coaches according to Bill
Bill create new ways to hate on Bron
Start dropping the whole pod in video after the clips
Tatum had 3 no? Stevens, Ime, Joe maz?
Lebron needs someone to blame he couldn’t deflect if he is the player coach!
Who do you blame and who does all media blame? Who have they been blaming for the last 20 years? The stupidity of you and these idiots is on another level. But you heard it so must repeat right.
So with CP3 retiring, Beal's contract being what it is, did the Wizards win that trade by getting Poole?
Sam Cassell is the coach I would pick for the Wizards.
Remember when CP3 took the Suns to the finals, good job trading him and having no leaders.
I love that KD and Kyrie both had 8 coaches, but in Bill's world KD is first on the list and Kyrie comes in second.
Cannot wait for the LeBron/KD/Harden Millennial era of basketball to be over
Kobe had more coaches lololol
@@misinfluence interim coaches don't count
I don't understand the LeBron hate. He only left teams when his contract was up. He never demanded a trade. The only trade he was a part of was a sign and trade that was equivalent to him leaving in free agency.
People don't hate Jordan for quitting on his teammates with his two fake retirements or for signing with the Wizards and basically being their GM while playing
@@catman-du8927 lebron never ask for trades because he wants to choose his destiny and even moreso he wants to control the narrative that a team didn't have to "get rid of him" but more that he chose to leave on his own accord.Lebron whole shtick is that coaches,gms and teams didn't make him better in any type of way but that he makes everything happen because of his own genius it's egotistical nonsense
@@catman-du8927 and you don't think LeBron has been the GM/coach? He got so many players traded and coaches fired.
I like how they got bud right away...another guy who lost in round 1
Lmao at Jusuf Nurkic galvanizing the team...
But you're right, I don't see Bud being successful on this team, Ishbia is starting to look like the next Dan Synder as a meddling owner just killing the franchise, and as long as he's owning them this team is screwed
Tatum shouldn’t even have one. he didn’t get his coach fired. The guy just got moved upstairs.
Am I insane or has Tatum not had 3 coaches?
Wos is when u order Stephen A. from Teemu
Hoopers giveth, hoopers taketh away.
Vogel was the wrong coach for the roster. Defensive minded coach on an offensive minded team. It’s the front office’s fault for hiring him, then the players fault for not performing, then his fault, in order. Coach is the easiest thing to change though
Hey everybody..I hope Fitz..becomes the coach...Google his resume...NICE..I say nice cuz Fitz will implement a DOMINATE talk to the 3...AAA and he will include the importance
Damn while I'm hearing this ..FITZ should be considered for ANY AVAILABLE JOB...his resume..prove me wrong
Bradley Beal should go down as a Hall of Fame overrated player
Steve Nash got screwed over by the Nets.
Nadal just got his ass kicked on clay in the worst fashion in his entire career, but at least he’s not the Slim Reaper!
1. The Suns are a mess. Problems much bigger than the coach.
2. Vogel did a horrible job, can't get upset he was fired.
Fitzdale....yeah I SAID IT....watch
You explained in the end how Rob Pelinka did not build a good enough roster to compete for a championship, how Darvin Ham mismanaged that said roster yet continue to make it about LeBron. Why do people want to always vilify LeBron ? I just don’t get it
We’ll never see anyone ever get held to the standard LeBron does. The reality is when things go good ppl like this try to give everyone else credit but when things go wrong they blame LeBron even tho they contradict themselves like you said.
He’s selfish
Lebron is the reason the roster is not good enough to compete for a championship! There is nothing the team can do to win, as long as Lebron is on the team holding them back. What trade, what signing, should they have made? They got a miracle turning Westbrook into DLo!
But it's never enough, because Lebron is the number 1 on the team, when he just ain't that guy anymore. And he won't shrink his role, because of his ego. When they win, it's all thanks to Lebron. When they lose, it's everyone else. Lebron is a walking sieve on defense. He pretends to care, when he is really just stat padding.
He won't sacrifice stats, or money, or playing time, in order to win. He won't leave the Lakers for a better situation, because he is now a full time mogul, stat padding because he thinks that might put him over MJ, when it never will.
@@shorewall
Bruh, just say i hate LeBron, it’s okay.
@@mikeg7244 It really is okay.
Bad year for Giannis, feels like a decade ago now that the Bucks won.
Bradley Beal's awful game 4 is not why the Suns failed the season. They weren't winning that series, they weren't winning more than 1 game. A more dominant showing in the regular season would have kept them out of the play-in. OBVIOUSLY it's not ALL on Vogel but if you actually followed his rotations and scheming you know he did not help this team at all. Coaching isn't everything but it MATTERS. Maybe Vogel was just a better fit for the Lakers team (with a defensive anchor in Davis). Winning a chip with one team doesn't automatically make you a good coach. I would rather have anyone than Frank Vogel coaching this team (except for Doc Rivers lol).
Forgot why I don't listen to a whole lot of Bill Simmons. I remember now😂
If the Wolves sweep the nuggets I think the Suns should feel a tiny bit better lol
What does the Lakers and suns have in common? Aging superstars, that are no longer superstars but still think they are superstars.
Aging, no-longer-superstars playing on teams with weak owners that they can bully into doing their bidding
Booker isn’t even in his prime plz stfu
Okay, hear me out.. I got really high one night during the wolves series (I'm a wolves fan, which isn't relevant but I'm proud of it for basically the first time in my life) and I had this thought:
Wouldn't all of Phoenix's problems be solved if they just tried to run the Triangle???? I know it doesn't translate that well to today's game, but like... with their roster I feel like it's their best shot at actually giving themselves a shot
I think that makes a lot of sense. They don't shoot 3s anyway, and they need some kind of offensive identity.
Cp3 should retire and become the lakers coach with melo and d wade as assistants...lebron would respect them
Yea im disappointed in Beal..... I am also down on Booker......elite elites..... Take teams further simply based off their eliteness......... ...KD is also being further exposed.... To be just an elite bball player..... Not a leader
Hawks №1
Frank isn't the problem. Offensive team with a defensive coach. Just a bad hire. Good coach. Bring him to my Knicks to team with Thibs and we will keep teams under 70 points!! Lol 😆
I think they figured the offensive stars would be good enough, and they needed Vogel to handle the defense. But the Suns are a badly built roster.
4:26 Glenn "Doc" Rivers, would have never gotten the Lakers job anyway. LeBron knows Doc's record and lack of modern coaching abilities too well. Doc got exactly what he deserved for taking the Milwaukee jod, no one was forcing him to go there and take over. Adrian Griffin lost that job because he couldn't get anyone on the Bucks to actually run his plays consistently or play meaningful defense - he never had Giannis or any of the other veterans on "his side". So now the Bucks are stuck with huge payroll, and a very aging starting lineup, especially Dame. Milwaukee is going 🎶 "..nowhere fast..." 🎶
6:06 this is good analysis, what is the "team identity" of the Phoenix Suns as a whole unit? Is it just their offensive talent? Will coach Bud or any coach make a difference on a team that can't go out and add players that fit that coach's "playstyle"? Because owner Matt Ishbia is expecting results from his investment and the Suns huge payroll, the whole front office better be working to fix this mess or he will dump them all.
Wos is so wrong. Bud was a terrible coach for the Bucks. If you are going to argue that they won with him, you can still win with a bad coach. They won in spite of him. Bud’s value is in the regular season. He can get away with Giannis pnrs and drop coverage when you have a great shot blocking big and an all time in defender in Jrue fighting over screens. But in the playoffs wherein you need to adjust schemes and coverages. He just wasn’t it.
Dumb way to end the pod. Ham's sin wasn't even one, it was not knowing when to call TOs, challenges, took him half a year to put together the starting rotation that the whole fanbase was asking, starting Reddish and Prince, 3 and 4 guard lineups, slow or non existent in-game adjustments
Jordan Poole player coach
Now that would be entertaining.
Vogel is not a good coach. The Suns had the highest rate of contested shots in the league - with 3 of the best scorers in the league on the same team. Our offense was TERRIBLE.
tatum had 3 - brad ime joe
LOL Rui was good in the regular season, that was the grip on Darvin Ham.
He kept Taurean Prince starting for 50 games. If you thought Rui sucked, try watching the 1st 50 games with Prince 💀
"poor doc" wtf? he comes on your pod a few times and simmons is doc-defender.
The bifurcation of LeBron James, one as scapegoat, is the only acceptable way into the NBA future
hi Bill can you pls explain to me your infatuation of KD ? aside from stats and piggy backing off of GS ?
He called him as the better pick than Oden at the draft, got it right, and has a soft spot for him ever since.
Dudes a walking bucket. His ability to get his own shot is unmatched in his generation. He is 6th all time in points averaged per game. I don't really understand what you're asking. KD is one of the 25 best basketball players ever and he's still in the league. Anyone who's job it is to talk about basketball is going to have a "infatuation" with him.
@@mjwbulich Lol, KD is a loser. He has the talent of a number 1, but the heart of a bench guy.
A topic talking about KD turns into shittin on Lebron….again
Skip was right look at the lakers since….. Frank Vogel is a horrible coach always looks lost and gets the best talent
This stat is meaningless
Booker wasn’t in the league in 2014.
Bill has a baby voice.
First
I’ve been waiting to hear from anyone what coach that LeBron “got fired” has had more success away from him than with him since these coaches are allegedly sooo good that ppl are defending
He gets them fired as a scape goat. What are you saying? No one's saying the coaches are better without him. They are saying that the coaches weren't the reason they lost. Lebron is. Lebron is weak mentally. He has only won when the deck was stacked in his favor, and folds every other time.
Miami, he had a HoF coach, two All star teammates, and went 50% in the finals over 4 years, when they were the best team in the league. And the years that they lost, he didn't show up. Hell, they almost lost in 2013. And the teams that he lost to weren't world beaters.
In Cleveland, he built another superteam with 2 all star teammates. And in another 4 years he won 1 chip.
In LA, he had an MVP level teammate, and over 5 years, has won 1 chip.
Lebron runs from superteam to superteam, leaving his previous team in shambles. He sets up as good of a situation for himself as he can, and he still can't get it done. In every situation, there is one constant. Not the coach, not the players, but Lebron.
MJ won 6 chips in 8 years with the same team. And his teams never had as much talent as every one of Lebron's teams since he went to Miami. And what's more, LeGM has sabotaged Lebron's own chances, by getting teammates traded who went on to be better away from him than they were with him.
@@shorewalllebron was the underdog for 7 out 10 finals not according to me according to vegas
Dunking on Skip? Fine. Dunking on Skip when he is right? Low class. LeBron would have never won a title in OrLAndo except for that Chinese inspired bubble lol
The bubble was a BS ring for LeBron..we all know that.
I am confused...when has Bron ever not been blamed? People say this while blaming him 😂😂. Lakers been cycling through coaches for years pre Bron. But yeah like somebody else said excellent pivot from the actual leader in coaching changes😂😂😂.
@poorchris LeBron has literally received the blame for all of those things.
It’s funny when you guys talk shit about the players when clearly Frank Vogel had no idea what was going on. Worst coach I’ve ever seen his sons history. I’ve been a sons fan for 43 years. Everybody want him fired he put nobody in position to win doesn’t know how to use the stars he has.
Kobe played for 10 coaches
Lebron is about to play for his 10th coach
Bill don’t know talent 😂😂he is a stats guy he is a media guy he ain’t no scout he’s a media guy
No reasonable person would take the Bubble Championship seriously.
When did lebron ever blame anyone?
He is always bitching about the team and coaching and puts the blame on role players who don't bail him out. And his whole Klutch and ESPN Propaganda machine goes even further.
Notice what he doesn't do. Take responsibility and blame, stand up for his teammates, etc.
He does it often he’s just passive aggressive. He do it with tweets and silly emojis.
Since rookie year
@@norebab3818
Send me the quotes
Why anyone would want to coach the Suns is beyond me. Coaching a bottom of the barrel tanking team would be infinitely better
How are you a good coach and can’t win a game with KD Booker and Beal?
Because KD is a loser. Because Beal is a loser. And because Booker is a loser.
Why is the guy in the middle even on this podcast? All he does is laugh, and sit there looking very weird and never says anything intelligent. I suppose they're only paying him a dollar two 50 and that could explain it.
Kobe has had more coaches than lebron lololol
nice try.
@@nikosvaulthe did keep coping
JJ Reddick is the perfect Lebron player-coach solution.
Also, it wasn't Lebron that threw Vogel under the bus, and Ham got himself fired. "Coach killer" is a tired take.
Lebron has his Klutch tentacles in the media. He has conditioned his fans to do his dirty work for him. When they win, it was all thanks to Lebron. When they lose, it was anyone else. When he plays good, it's amazing that he's doing this at 39. When he doesn't play good, give him a break, he's 39!
Lebron will never be the GOAT that he calls himself. This last act of his career is really exposing his true character.
@@shorewall💯
Booker needs to enter overrated conversations
I dont underatand yall basketball media ppl dis shit is normal in soccer ...its normal to sack a coach if a multi million dollar team dont meet expectation . U cant sack the players , the coach always the fall guy to bring a new energy to the locker room .its not fair but it is what it is . The suns roster is shit , if am the owner i will fire the coach and the GM .