What are the implications of Calvinism? Fatalism? Evangelism? Free will? - Podcast Episode 194
Вставка
- Опубліковано 1 лип 2024
- If Calvinism is true, what is the point of evangelism? If Calvinism isn't true, how does that not result in fatalism? If Calvinism is true, can humanity in any sense have free will or be responsible?
Links:
Could Calvinism be a stumbling block to the spread of the gospel of Christ? - www.gotquestions.org/calvinis...
What is fatalism? What is determinism? - www.gotquestions.org/fatalism...
Do human beings truly have a free will? - www.gotquestions.org/free-wil...
Transcript: podcast.gotquestions.org/tran...
---
podcast.gotquestions.org
GotQuestions.org Podcast subscription options:
Apple - podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast...
Google - podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0...
Spotify - open.spotify.com/show/3lVjgxU...
Amazon - music.amazon.com/podcasts/ab8...
IHeartRadio - iheart.com/podcast/81148901/
Disclaimer: The views expressed by guests on our podcast do not necessarily reflect the views of Got Questions Ministries. Us having a guest on our podcast should not be interpreted as an endorsement of everything the individual says on the show or has ever said elsewhere. Please use biblically-informed discernment in evaluating what is said on our podcast.
“See to it that there is no one who takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception in accordance with human tradition, in accordance with the elementary principles of the world, rather than in accordance with Christ.”
Colossians 2:8 NASB2020w
There is no chance I will ever be a Calvinist. Limited atonement and Irresistible grace are simply at odds with the Word of God that we have a free will. And it makes God a moral monster, condemning some to hell before they are ever born.
Neither calvanist or armenian. I'm a Biblicist.
The Bible and the Holy Spirit, with prayer will give you everything the First gentleman spoke about.
This philosophy comes from a man, and man is fallible, so I’ll stick to what Jesus tells us. It doesn’t have to be parsed, and explained by a man.
7:39 Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, believe God raised him from the dead, read His word, and do what it says
@15:54 BIGGEST PROBLEM with Calvanism
But his argument is a non sequitur because no Calvinist evangelizes with TULIP. No one is saved by being a Calvinist. It's a fake problem that he made up.
There is no tension in Scripture. How completely unbiblical to imply that God is a God of confusion and tension. For shame.
Love is not love when its forced upon a person, that's an oxymoron.
You can force people to do things but its not possible to make them love you by choosing them against their will and of course we have the classic
1 Timothy 2;4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth
God has pre determined a perfect plan for our lives, 'predestined' but we can throw it all away by not receiving it.
Love how you speak Jeff! 👍
Had a thought today. Let's imagine a Calvinist being honest when sharing hidden parts of their doctrine if someone asked what they believed...
"God may hate your child. God made most people to glorify him in hell for all eternity with having zero choice. Our leader John Calvin was instrumental in murdering many people. Anytime you see the words "world" or "all" in the bible it means only the elect. Having just the bible will not suffice as we recommend lots of other books to understand the bible. A child being abused was ordained by God."
I love the Calvinist folks, just can't agree with their twisted theology.
Love how Sheo speaks and your relationship with Jesus !
So many calvinists don’t really believe their theology? That’s what you mean when you say “calvinists do preach the gospel”
I believe we have to preach because the word of God changes the heart and if someone doesn’t hear the word their heart may not change and they might not be saved, because number 1 God doesn’t not choose who is and is not saved but he chooses those who are saved.
Positive? Misrepresenting "sovereignty" is a positive? Can't argue against? Question. Is the CEO of the company "sovereign" over every employee, including the guy who cleans the floors at night? If you agree he is, does that mean that the CEO micromanages the janitor? If he doesn't, does that mean he is not sovereign???
God is Sovereign and our free will choices are a factor in His sovereignty.
Proverbs 3:5-6
Thank you again for presenting this series on Calvinism. It has been very enlightening and pushes one to reach for the Word of God for understanding. I appreciate Got Questions Ministries and am glad you will continue the podcasts with the three of you, Kevin, Jeff, and Shay.
I Appreciate this Whole discussion.. I was raised Bridgeport Mi. Baptism Church.. To Pray to Repent and except Jesus CHRIST.. IN Prayer and Getting Baptized.. Then I started listening to Paul Washer, Voddie Baucham.. others.. can you Gentlemen of God, Please explain R.C. Sprouls believe? I’ve started listening to him.. Pastors, Brothers.. Thank You. I need this Study Very much..Love Prayers, To you and your Family..🙏🙏🙏🕊❣️
IMO… to be a 0-point Calvinist… or a 5-point Calvinist you would have to deny some critical verses.
Getting 1 thing right doesn't make proper doctrine "1-point Calvinist" that's how cults work. Get one foot in the door and then invade and infect.
Would you consider a guest to present a more traditional southern Baptist perspective on Soteriology?
Hello, I just want to say how much I appreciate your ministry. Your gracious response, and kind reply to commenters and guests on your channel is wonderful. Please continue to point out the full blown error, of limited atonement. I was in Calvinism for about six or seven years, and I could never get past limited atonement. Thank you again. I hope they are willing to have you on.
Just be sure to keep grace and not strawman if you want to change minds - Kevin Thompson at BtF has become embittered towards Calvinists and it makes it hard to listen to him (even when he's right.) Appreciate your ministry and the way you explain proper doctrine, you remind people Scripture is not confusing on this matter, man has only made it so.
I'm sure they would love to have James White come on as a guest. Since he knows history so well and would best represent such a perspective truthfully.
@@donovanwillis568James White is a fraud. I'm not questioning his salvation, I'm questioning his intellectual integrity.
@@donovanwillis568 Now, that’s some funny stuff right there.
I think it all comes down to the question “just how sovereign is God actually?
Not even a little. I am completely sovereign over my children, I can still choose to allow them to act on their own will. As a parent my hope is that they choose the good and reject evil, choice is all over Scripture. It doesn't effect God's sovereignty, one with power would not be sovereign if they had no choice in whether to use it or not.
Outwardly, we cannot see who are elected or not so we still need to evangelize.
That's literally nowhere in Scripture.
Jesus Christ is Lord 🙏 turn to Him and believe then repent. Ask Him to be your Lord and Savior. It's literally your choice nobody else's. Today is the day of your Salvation it's not too late but tomorrow may be too late. Now that you know, it's on you, nobody else.
If Calvinists were honest, they would tell you there is not one single verse in the scripture that supports their position That regeneration precedes faith. not one. however, if you use their dictionary, you can dance around many many scriptures… that state salvation is available for all, everyone, whosoever believes, and the list goes on and on. But to believe their position you have to use their dictionary.
Bonus ill give you 2 : )
Acts 13:48.... who appointed who to believe?
Acts 16:14.... who opened her heart to believe?
Keep searching, not to come to calvanism but to see that it's robust.
@@danielgilbert3044 oh, I’m not searching, been there done that, six or seven years in Calvinism. You need to hop over to Leighton Flowers UA-cam channel Soteriology 101. He breaks it down. Very clear for you. If you carry Calvinism to its logical conclusion, determinism, the god of Calvinism is a monster. you will want to look at the dozens of scriptures, where the Lord said himself believe. All, whosoever, the gospel is the power of God for the salvation for all those who believe. Don’t get suckered, my friend. I was. But no more.
@@danielgilbert3044 those passages are just a simple example of God, doing what he does, Jesus said if I be lifted up. The father will draw all men to me. But first they believed.
Where do those scriptures say that God draws men to Jesus, then they believe? Or, is the act of drawing God's work of instilling faith in His elect?
There is not just Calvinism or arminianism. I wouldn't put myself in either camp. If I follow Calvinism out, it does appear teach a different God than is who is in Scripture. Arminianism is not there either. For a look at another perspective please see Leighton Flowers' UA-cam channel. He was a calvinist but came out of it. He calls himself a provisionist.
Excellent!!
Great point gentlemens, I only follow God and his holy word. Cavanist etc... is good things you could take, but is not the main source, the Bible is the main source and the Holy Spirit is the one that convicts.
The points being made from around the 12 minute mark up to around the 15 minute mark should clearly point out that Calvinism is not biblical.
EXACTLY! Why would Yahweh instruct us to do anything that was irrelevant and meaningless. NOT.
Plus, Kevin’s point at about 19 mins adds to that. Trying to figure out intellectually Yahweh and His ways beyond what is in scripture - why? And we are warned against it. So, WHY even give Calvinism any credence?! We shouldn’t. Besides that most I have met are so arrogant and sinful in their character and behavior, especially when it comes to this subject.
@@JacQuelineMMestre that is for sure. Just listen to James White for only a few minutes and you get a kink in your neck, just looking up to see him atop his high horse.
@@ROTAX1: I have, and you’re right! Even the one’s I’ve met personally. They can otherwise be “nice” people but forget about it when you start to question their views. People in the Facebook groups straight attack you just how trying to understand and have questions. You can just tell they DON’T have the truth. It’s an incubator for insecure people finding some intellectual foothold that helps them feel superior and content with themselves and the pack mentality that brings them the wrong kind of comfort. It’s Cult behavior.
Would you say that's judgemental and pretty mean to your Brother's and Sister's who are Calvanist?
The point they made early on by Kevin was the the theology is very biblical too.
No non calvanist I know claims that we do anything to accomplish our salvation. We both believe in God's sovereignty. God can choose to allow choice and still be all powerful. Paul explicitly says if it is through faith that we are saved then there is no boasting. I don't understand how God allowing us to choose if we will accept or reject his offer is taking any part in saving ourselves. God reached out to us first, we didn't reach out to him, but he reached out to everyone.
Either God MAKES us believe or he doesn't,there can't be both, this is a contradiction not a mystery.
This is a big issue because it makes God out to be duplicitous offering a message that can't be received. Calvinism also takes away the responsibility of man and make man the victim. This isn't the God I have known from scripture study for 20 years and it breaks my heart.
Why would Yahweh instruct us to do anything that was irrelevant and meaningless. NOT.
Plus, Kevin’s point at about 19 mins adds to that. Trying to figure out intellectually Yahweh and His ways beyond what is in scripture - why? And we are warned against it. So, WHY even give Calvinism any credence?! We shouldn’t. Besides that most I have met are so arrogant and sinful in their character and behavior, especially when it comes to this topic.
He told us to be faultless and holy..... which is impossible. Except by the Blood of Jesus
Even if a group of people are arrogant, that isn't a valid argument against their position. You're falling into an ad hominem fallacy.
How does God's instructions come as irrelevant and meaningless in Calvinism? If I am following your statement correctly...
@@dylansaurusrex21: No, you’re wrong. Those Characteristics (arrogance, just to name 1) aren’t “fruits” of God’s spirit. So, if that is so prevalent in a world view - it does beg the question: how can they have the truth, in word & spirit, as we are called to? It doesn’t add up. That’s just the icing on the cake for the other issues that don’t all add up AND are all interlocked (one letter goes with the other). Sooooo.
@@danielgilbert3044: That doesn’t explain it away and just sounds like an excuse to be comfortable with sin.
@@JacQuelineMMestre Again, character of a person has no relation to the position they hold. This is bad logic. This is a fallacious argument. One could say that from their perspective, Arminians are prideful and arrogant, not walking out the fruit of the Spirit, but that is still not an argument proving or disproving Arminianism.
"I believe like a Calvinist and peach like an Armenian" James 1:8 A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways. (Besides, Armenianism is a branch is Calvinism anyway.)
I'm 5 point, early on I had heard that Calvanist's can be abrasive and prideful. Yet, in my experience it's been the other side of the Christian fence that tend to really throw down when the topic comes up. : )
But love them regardless and try and settle the conversation down or change topics.
John piper claims to be a 7 point calvanist, 2 extra points are:
double predestination and the best-of-all-possible worlds.
Dave Hunt has great books on Calvinism
Kevin has nailed it in his ending summary,
God ordained that Billy G. Preach the word exactly as he did and through that means he saved many souls he had predestined before the foundation of the world. If Billy had not preached is a fruitless statement because all that has come to pass had to come to pass according to the counsel of His will. Eph 1.
Billy G and Franklin G ( Freemasons)? Also Franklin G made comments that Jesus would have took the vaccinations .😂 Really? Now that's impossible!! Greg Lolery that's on moody radio supports the vaccinations.
John Calvin never preached Calvinism. Selah. Some other guy came up with it almost 200 years later, pulling a single scripture from one of his sermons, out of context, and began to debate its meaning by human logic. NONE of it, on either side of the argument, is scriptural, and clearly does not reflect the heart of God, who is not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to everlasting life. And yet for hundreds of years now, the church has been confused and divided over this teaching of demons. ANYTHING that denies our assurance of salvation in Christ IS demonic. STOP THE MADNESS already!
A person after my own heart. I’m struggling with this daily - How so many Christians can be failing to humble themselves before the REALITIES found in the proper interpretation of God’s word that they would come to these false conclusions. And a simple way to see the wrong in it is based on how it agrees with the world:
Atheists: God sends people to hell
Calvinists: I agree
Atheists: We don’t have free will
Calvinists: I agree
Like…what?!
If God did not ORDAIN evil/the fall, then what He DID ordain has been overturned and defeated by evil.
No, He did ORDAIN the fall, but He did not compel Adam to sin; just the opposite in fact, He commanded Adam to NOT sin. But Adam freely chose to eat the forbidden fruit, and BY HIM (Romans 5) sin and death entered into the world.
Knowing something will happen and ordaining it is not the same thing. Nor does it mean evil wins. The Scriptures say God turns the weapons of the enemy against themselves.
@@Crusader_Joe
Yes there is a difference between knowledge and decreeing, and Scripture declares God does both.
When you talk about one point, three-point, four-point, or whatever point, Calvinist, it should be framed as God is mildly sovereign, moderately sovereign, mostly sovereign, or completely sovereign. To me, that’s a better way to look at the five points.
God allows evil because of our free-will. Evil is created by the acts of our free-will.
only those who are the elect respond to the gospel, God knew who would respond and reaches out to those by means He chooses, those who don't respond, God uses even those for His glory in ways we may not understand, God is not the author of sin, but allows it because of the fall of Adam, because of us, not Him, even the sin He allows is for His glory and purposes, hallelujah, He is so good
There are 3 mysteries which will never be understood completely; 1)The Trinity of God 2)The dual nature of Christ 3)Free-will vs Predestination
I understand all of those things completely...
@@Crusader_Joe How many people have you taught your understanding to?
The " means " of salvation of the elect is the preaching of the cross. (1 COR.1:18).
THIS IS GODS PLAN.
GOD REVEALS CHRIST.
IN YOUR HEART.(2COR.4:6), YOU BELIEVE HIM!
GOD GIVES YOU UNDERSTANDING OF HIS WORD. ( 1JOHN 2:27). SOME BELIEVERS ARE MORE MATURE IN THE FAITH,AND HAVE MORE UNDERSTANDING OF SCRIPTURE..
KEEP SEEKING! GOD WILL TEACH YOU.
SEE PRO.4:18 :JOHN 8:31-32.
Calvinism is only for mature Christians to know and not to share during evangelizing.
That's literally gnosticism by definition. "SECRET KNOWLEDGE"
God is JUST AND IMPARTIAL. It is a harmfully false doctrine just as the once saved always saved concept. We are all made in His image and He loves each and every one of us. The reason He didn’t love Esau was because He knew the life he was going to lead even prior to him growing up, how he would be ungrateful towards his father and so on.
(God speaking)
16 “For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that EVERYONE who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.”
John 3:16-17 NLT
(God speaking)
1 ”I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. 3 You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. 5 Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.“
John 15:1-6 NLT
8 DON’T LET ANYONE CAPTURE YOU WITH EMPTY PHILOSOPHIES AND HIGH-SOUNDING NONSENSE THAT COME FROM HUMAN THINKING AND FROM THE SPIRITUAL POWERS OF THIS WORLD, RATHER THAN FROM CHRIST. 9 For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body. 10 So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority. 11 When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision-the cutting away of your sinful nature. 12 For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead. 13 You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins. 14 He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross.
Colossians 2:8-14 NLT
God wants NO ONE to perish and is even delaying His return in the hopes that more will come to faith and be saved but He knows how everything is going to play out before it happens. God uses his branches to reach out and draw others to Him so they will be saved by His grace. Without this obedience many remain unguided to Him and left in the dark about His loving grace. He reveals His love through His creation but also through His followers. We were all elected to the offered gift of salvation, God foreknows who will accept that gift before they are even born. When you see “the elect” it’s talking about the elect that have accepted His gift, when you see “predestined” it’s talking about those He prepared plans to obey Him with knowing they were among those that were going to accept Him. Jesus Christ did not charge us with the Great Commission for nothing, He did it for a good reason, and not merely for the sake of legalism! He did it because His grace is what we need (no our works) and others need it too. God gave us free will in His sovereignty. To suggest God is not loving, just, or impartial is to smear His character! His love and justice is far greater than ours so obviously we can assume it exceeds our faulty practices of such.
Once saved always saved concept ?? So your salvation depends on you ?
“ And I am sure of this , that he that began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6