00:00 Intro 13:31 Arti-(UK) | If Everything Is Atoms, What Matters? 37:59 Patrick-FL | Do What You Will But Don't Infringe On Others 41:14 Samar-(PK) | Comfort In Seeing Loved Ones Again 1:05:04 Nikol-(AM) | Motivation To Not Do Bad Things 1:24:12 Jasyon-(AU) | Questions Of Trans In Society
Thank you for taking the time to actually answer the Australian caller's questions. It is appreciated as it is refreshing to hear the conversation instead of having it shut down because a person is deemed a bigot for asking questions about a hot button topic that they are honestly trying to understand. I'm a progressive, but I have become disillusioned in the past few years by being told certain that questioning the nuance of "woke" topics (for lack of a better word) is itself considered hateful.
They are not rockstars. Saying "you're rockstars" is comparing them to something you perceive as "better" than their actual position. That's like saying to Prince "you're a biologist". Forrest is actually a biologist, a teacher, a UA-camr - all amazing things in their own right. I know it's pedantic and silly, but being called a rockstar is not really a compliment to a biologist, unless you strip the compliment of all meaning and just call it a compliment, in which case just tell them they are amazing on their own terms. Pet hate, hence the rant ;)
@@joelonsdale Slow down there fella. Saying someone is a rockstar, is just saying someone is the best in their field or in what ever they might be doing with an aspiration for excellence and achievement of excellence.
“Why does something need to be permanent to have value?” Anyone ever been to a sand sculpture competition at the beach? You see some awesome art work, don’t you? Truly memorable stuff. We don’t have ice sculpture competitions in Australia, but I imagine they’re the same.
A delicious meal is fabulous and found valuable in more than one way. Most things we value in this life are temporary. That makes the time we have them precious.
It's like saying a human being has no value since everyone will die. They are so afraid that they have to say that no one dies. It's just some go to live in an eternity endlessly worshipping a narcissistic god and the rest are tortured for an eternity if you didn't worship a narcissistic god with no evidence of existing.
I saw a show once where some monks of some Buddhist -type religion had spent MONTHS making a mandala with colored sandstone rubbings on the sidewalk and one day, some toddler came along, looked at it, and promptly decided to jump on it and run around, completely ruining it. It took my breath away and I felt horrible for a minute but those monks just smiled and reassured his (horrified) mother that it was ok...all things are temporary.
Good duo right here, Seth always seems to defer a bit to the regular hosts to give them the floor to talk more but I always appreciate his perspective and approach and wish he would get more airtime
I'm an atheist but was raised in a Christian family. We were Episcopalian. My mother always said the good thing about being an Episcopalian was that you could pretty much believe whatever you wanted to 😄🤗. I never had a fear of hell or felt god was watching everything I was doing. It just didn't make sense to me. My doubts began when I was 12 years old and was taking confirmation classes. I asked the priest if people who had never heard of Jesus would go to hell. He said yes, because belief in Jesus was the only way to get into heaven. I was shocked and appalled. So, here I am, 75 yo, believing pretty much what I want to. Thank you, mother, for giving me that freedom of thought. My deconstruction, unlike many others, has been relatively painless.
@KeplersDream Brilliant! (And please forgive me for explicitly saying what I think you are already implying😂) Then when they say "No you were not there." Of course I'll say "How can you know I wasn't there? Where you there?" 😂 Afterall, there is a real possibility that the atoms that are ME may well have been there. Whoa, that sounds like some real bong insight there. 🤯
@@siezethebidet I think there is an even more interesting gambit here. What @mirandarensberger6919 said kind of leads there. Because most arguments you could bring up against the claim of "I have been there." are also arguments against religion. So you can use the same rebuttals that theists would use, making the other person argue against these arguments.
@@siezethebidet Actually you should say I was there and I remember everybody who was there with me and you weren't there. That way they can't rip off you statement.
I would answer Arti’s question, concerning value, thusly: Sentient beings are capable of comfort, joy, pleasure and happiness. We are, also, capable of misery. Life is valuable because of love, joy, pleasure and happiness. Meaning is derived by making life a more enjoyable place. I enjoy making my grandchildren laugh and helping their life to be more enjoyable. How does death take that value away? When I’m on my death bed, these memories will bring comfort. When I’m dead, the struggle is over. When I lose a loved one, I take comfort in knowing that I helped make their life more enjoyable. It doesn’t take away all the pain, but it gives comfort.
That’s a good answer! I think I came to agree with what was suggested from this call, meaning comes from consciousness and sentience and the fact that that is a temporary result of the atoms making up people existing as they are makes it if anything more precious.
I'd add to that Mark, by looking from the other direction: what you do in this life echoes into the future in the lives of those you influenced (for the better or worse). Your interactions with your grandchildren will be templates that they will use with their grandkids, and on and on. Sure the echoes fade and merge with others, but they matter now and into the future, even when you are gone.
I agree with Forest's cosmic nihilism, but I would also add that meaning is an emergent property of biological organisms. "Meaning" is the mapping of sensory-motor inputs to relatively abstract mental representations, which primarily occurs in animals with complex forebrains.
human ego has a really hard time getting over- 'why am I here? there MUST be a point'. That the cosmos owes you nothing, and doesn't give a $hit either way how you feel about it, isn't a very comforting, even if very probably true 'answer'.
Arti, if you are here reading the comments, I really liked the Crash Course series that talked about philosophy. That can at least introduce you to a lot of philosophers and their ideas in a very short time span, and then you can investigate whatever route you want to from there.
I am trying to read the comments in between cringing at how stammery I was lol! Thanks for the suggestion, I didn’t know crash course had a philosophy series, I’ll check it out!
@ Oh, you sounded awesome! I loved your conversation. If it makes you feel better, I think psychologically most everybody doesn’t like hearing themselves from recordings. Something about the fact that the way you hear your own voice, like through the bones and meat of your own skull, sounds fundamentally different than how everyone else hears you. In any case, I went and re-reviewed the series, and I found number 16: Existentialism particularly interesting. I really liked the part about the WWII soldier that’s needs to decide to stay home and help his sick mother, or go to war. He can have a big significance for one person, or a small significance, but for many people. You may want to start with that episode. If you like philosophy, another channel I like is Philosophy Engineered! In particular his videos about What is Truth? And also What is Logic? I hope you like those and lmk what you think. Lmk if you want more suggestions, I’ve added so many science, math, and theist response videos to my sub feed, lol. And good luck with the doctorate! It’s a long grueling process, but it feels so good once you’re done!
Ken Hamm is so old that: The dinosaurs died out because the neighborhood kids kept throwing their eggs at his house. The Grand Canyon used to be a crack in his driveway. Romulus wanted to build a seaport, but Ken and his friends were playing beach volleyball and chased him away. His family physician was Hippocrates. His first job was holding Rosetta's chisels when she was carving her stone.
52:00 -- on the invisible person sitting in the chair, it had limited effect. What I found interesting was that, after a while, one of the kids in one trial tried talking to the invisible person. When he got no response, he and the other kids began to question what was up. So the first kid gets up and slowly walks to the chair and eventually touches it to find out no one is sitting there. Thus, we have a real world example of how skepticism and testing out a claim can lead to atheism. These kids became invisible princess atheists. 🙃
Theist here, what a pleasant episode. Especially love the Australian caller struggling with a typical talking point and Forrest's genuine patient answer.
@donjuan123 The Hebrew doesn't say "whale", it says "large fish". In context, it just meant "large sea creature", because the ancient Israelites didn't make the distinction. Also, it's fiction.
@ C’mon man. The Bible calls it a fish Jonah 1:17. If you’re going to seem critical of the post of another first be sure that they’re wrong and you’re right. The Bible does not use any taxonomic terminology but simply refers to everything bringing forth after their “kind”.
13:31 Arti-(UK) | If Everything Is Atoms, What Matters? I can't decide if this is a good question or a stupid question (which probably means it is a good question) I can only come up with questions that it begs. 1. Why does Arti's dad think that anything does matter? 2. What would things have to be made out of in order for things to matter? 3. How would a species that evolved into behaving as if its own self didn't matter behave? Which brings me to my semi-conclusion, perhaps we need to instinctively feel our own self importance in order to successfully evolve. Alas I am a Boh Rap Coda, "Nothing really matters Anyone can see Nothing really matters Nothing really matters to me" Freddie Mercury
Also recently deconverted Australian. Heart-warming to hear from the Australian ex-Mormon (I was Pentecostal/charismatic). Can so relate to eschewing intellectual exploration for fear of *being deceived*. Religion sucks.
@@Apotheosis-81 You say that as if you're ignorant of what your hole-y babble says about animals. That or you're just playing dishonest projection games.
Ref: The notion that things must last forever to have value. Permanence, like other notions of absolutes, is an illusion emerging from human imagination in response to emotions like fear and desire. Buddhists monks acknowledge transience (impermanence) by creating beautifully intricate and colorful sand mandalas, (imaged models of a "perfect universe") just to sweep them away once finished.
I like what Forest said about leaving the left overs from the main harvest for anyone who is in need. In the neighborhood that I grew up in, there was a wealthy land owner of a strawberry field who would allow us to glean the fields. It was awesome and an indelible memory. I also remember when I attended church, my pastor described this scripture as God's welfare program. Thanks Forest for sharing that thought.
What happens when an entire city of people starts coming for the farmers crops? How much money, time, and hard work does the farmer put forward for masses of lazy people that come like locusts to feed?
It is a nice idea, and in a rural setting with no available cars or trucks, it would work. In some places, some fields/crops can be afterharvested by locals like your strawberryfield. The problem is modern thieves, they do not care about the mutual respect that is needed here. Sometimes there will not be enough crops to cover the farmers own needs, is he still supposed to give away a part? Not big needs, not money needs, but simply the amount he needs to feed his family and livestock over winter. Is he supposed to kill some animals because he cant feed them, just to feed some possible strangers?
13:31 Arti. Don't worry about the atheist position on meaning (there isn't one) Instead, question your OWN position. Namely, exactly how does god existing give your life meaning? That then brings up the issue that if you are basing your meaning on god, then you better be 100% sure one exists and that you've got the right one, otherwise you've got nothing but a great big maybe, which atheism also offers.
Cheers for the question, it’s a really good one. I’ve started that questioning when I first started on this journey and I’m still finding answers, but that’s a good way to frame it that I hadn’t thought before. I’ll definitely think about it!
As born and bred southern white guy, I've never understood the negative "black people and fried chicken" stereotype. Every poor white family I knew growing up ate a metric shitload of fried chicken. How was it somehow "less than" for black folk to eat it, but "perfectly reasonable" for white folk? Never got it as a kid.
If the Bible got one thing right - Talking animals. I talk to the birds that come close to me, I’d like them to understand that I’m not danger to them.
"Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fantasies. To teach superstitions as truths is a most terrible thing. The child mind accepts and believes them, and only through great pain and perhaps tragedy can he be in after years relieved of them." Hypatia (attributed)
A comment on the beginning of the episode. 2°F is around -15°C. That's not too bad. Then again, I'm sitting comfortably outside on the porch having a morning coffee in -20°C Québec right now so I might not have good perspective.
Hopefully Arti is able to look into secular humanism since it seems to be a great way a lot of people ground morals without a god, then I’d suggest searching other moral frameworks online, if they feel they need. I think Seth is very correct they’re on the right path.
Thanks, I’ll definitely look into it, I really want to find as many possible theories as I can to make sure I’m not just jumping straight from one poorly founded moral system to another. So any suggestion to expand my knowledge base on it is great.
To the first caller, the best place for getting more information is the library. Reading is the best way of collecting knowledge and understanding. Imo. 😊
Oh definitely, that’s why I asked if they had any suggestions on where to start (very poorly because I was nervous lol). The philosophy section is a big place, especially at a university library, so I was trying to find a place to start. But secular humanism and nihilism seems a good beginning.
@ArtemisFowl_the_wise you did great. I would be very nervous too, if i had to speak and be heard by thousands of people. 😊 I hope you find what you are looking for. 😊 Greetings from 🇫🇮
@@RexfelisLXIX I guess the corporate name portmanteau UA-cam technically counts as one word so I’ll award you this one . . . somewhat begrudgingly. Lol
I'd suggest Arti contact their local Humanist Society. There are certainly books they can read on secular ethics, Sam Harris for example, but better might be to just think about how they feel about things, and try to figure out why they think those things, and maybe write it down in the form of a manifesto. Structuring it like that can help you to nail it down to bullet points. 😊
Oh that’s a great suggestion! I had a vague idea (like the caller after me) that maybe just do whatever as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone, and try to help as much as possible. Once I realised wasn’t compatible with Christianity that’s when I started questioning religion. So writing down something more solid and structured from what my initial feelings were might give me a better starting point until I can find a more specific philosophy that seems to fit. Thanks!
I guess youtube doesn't like my comment ... I wanted to add some nuance to the handling of Jayson's call. But apparently the topics discussed trigger some kind of youtube filter :(
Some collections of atoms are included in sentient life and consciousness, which makes your question possible -- and your question obviously matters to you, otherwise why ask it? The experience of life, while it is going on, matters. Wildlife cannot, in most cases, reply to this philosophical abstract, but all will fight for continued life.
@@MCodger I feel like for many simpler or perhaps primitive life forms, what we anthropomorphise as a fight for life is likely an intuitive struggle against a perceived threat . . . not to play semantics, but your post provoked my cogitative deliberation so . . . yeah. (Your replying post struck me as a nonsequitur to your OP so it threw me at first. Then I saw both were you which did nothing to resolve my confusion. Good luck on your QotW
Ooh, another Bible verse I hope is true? Any of the ludicrous number of times that it talks of "a pleasing aroma to the Lord". Because it's hard to take it very seriously when you can envision god floating blissfully towards mounds of flaming goat like a cartoon character smelling a pie.
Timestamp ±1:09:00 Forrest describes basic "kindergarten morality" and Nikol says "I don't think that's achievable.." It is achieved by billions of people on a daily basis! Most people in any community, in any country are just plain decent folk honoring the property rights of others (not stealing) not attacking or abusing anyone, in fact living quite peacefully among one another. If this were not the norm, the world would not function at all! Religious moralists would quickly point to all those who do steal and abuse. They point up atrocities committed by humans with no awareness that atrocities (and even misdemeanors) are highly noticed precisely because they are the exceptions to most human's normal social behaviour. 🎉 Basic " kindergarten morality is not only achievable, it is overwhelmingly the norm. BTW, Although I'm an atheist, one of my favorite books "Everything I Need to Know, I learned in Kindergarten." It's written by Robert Fulghum - a Christian (from Nikol's team) 😂
Forest: you should probably stop people from conflating nihilism with pessimism. Pessimism, from a philosophical standpoint, means that you feel life is not worth living. You don't have to be a pessimist if you are nihilist. An optimist, from a philosophical standpoint, means you think life is worth living. You don't need more than that. You can want to live even if there isn't a supernatural being. Why would that have anything to do with anything? Don't let them convince you that you'll have to commit suicide just because you don't believe in their God.
No. Pessimism isn't that life is not worth living. The difference with nihilism is that Pessimism does accept that there is some degree of value or meaning in life. For example, Schopenhauer, pessimist, saw art and asceticism as ways to mitigate a life that's filled with suffering.
@@ChallengeYourBeliefs no, that is nihilism. Per wikipedia's entry on "Philosophical pessimism": "Philosophical pessimism is a philosophical tradition which argues that life is not worth living and that non-existence is preferable to existence." Q.E.D. Addendum to that: you can be a theist and a pessimist. A message you can find in the bible is that life on earth is worthless and the only one that matters is the one in heaven. That's why you shouldn't get married or have possessions. That is called nihilistic, but technically it is pessimistic. Philosophy defines the word differently.
@@ChallengeYourBeliefs No, but it shows that philosophy defines pessimism differently than regular speech. Kinda like science and the word theory. There's nothing to prove as that is the definition of the word as they define it. Which is what I stated, how philosophy defines it. I got it from an education channel by a college professor of philosophy, and Wikipedia confirms him. I'm going with my definition, and I don't give a damn about what Schopenhauer said. In philosophy, pessimism is the belief that life is not worth living, but that is not the same as nihilism. You can think life is worth living even if there isn't a God, and you also don't need asceticism. Don't listen to Schopenhauer is my advice. Find your own path.
FWIW Forrest does his 'cosmic nihilism' schtick pretty regularly to derive a positive outlook on existence even though 'nothing really matters ultimately'. It's the glass is half full flip side of the argument- *BECAUSE* we are just an irrelevant blip in a vast expanse of the universe, that which is valuable is the time you have right here, right now and the worst thing you can do to a conscious entity is to deny it that 1 possibility and experience.
lol, this is why you never let a chemist talk about philosophy. But I guess surprise for him because this show has given me a good answer to reply with!
@ArtemisFowl_the_wise I have great chats with my brothers about philosophy, if they are open and willing to discuss the mysteries of the human "soul" there's so much to debate - free will, consciousness, subjective vs objective morals etc
I hope the bible at least got gods pronouns right. Hell knows all those natural-haired conservatives who have been influenced by the radical right are gonna throw a fit over it otherwise.
For Arti's dad shouldn't it be the other way around? If you are going to a better place and will exist forever then why should anybody hesitate to kill you? If you have a very limited time to get whatever you can out of your life then why wouldn't cutting that short be one of the worst things anybody could do to you?
It matters to ME that this group of atoms that make me up exists. It doesn't matter to the universe at all, and I don't see why I would care that I don't matter to the universe. I don't understand at all why I would care what meaning the universe, or some god, decides I should have. Even if a god decided some meaning for my existence I have no way to access that god's opinion so I have to live my life for me, not some hidden god's wishes.
1:25:52 Please Forrest, hell no. While our history is not quite as “extended” as the US and we never had institutional slavery, our record on indigenous rights is equally detestable, including the use of blackface to mock and demean the worlds oldest continuous culture.
Aboriginal Australians were still in boarding schools in the middle of the last century to my memory by the time black Americans were still segregated but somewhat independent within their own communities. I love the movie “Rabbit-Proof Fence”, it depicts that time in the Australian history.
@ that's a non-sequitur. There were well off African Americans during Jim Crow. In the 1950’s there was a systematic program conducted by the Australian government removing indigenous children from their families and placing them with white families in a attempt to destroy indigenous culture. While there was no institutional slavery in Australia it most certainly did take place. There were horrific massacres of indigenous tribes. Pygmies were genocided into non-existence. And today the indigenous incarceration rate, the poverty levels, the health outcomes are still at atrocious levels. I urge you to consider their treatment as a race as a whole , not isolated incidences of fairness
@Spanish-m5u well you are the one that claimed that Indigenous Australians were doing just fine because some went to boarding school while the majority suffered horrific injustice and despicable treatment at the hands of white Australians. 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Apot seems annoyed about something. Oh well. I certainty don't trust him or his like with any amount of power over others. Something to do with his desire to feel superior to others and wishing to harm others in order to do so.
That's just the thing with domestic terrorists that push godless social networks and laws on every facet of society, we are at odds. There can be no peace or compromise. We can't have freedom where people want to control views on God and science. That is the establishment of a theological concept in government
@@amtlpaulYes. All war and battle comes down to one person forcing their will over the other. Some sociopolitical concepts are not compatible with our constitutional republic for which it stands.
@amtlpaul I'm not with egalitarianism and pandering to things that are contrary to hard work, talent, and earning things. People get rewarded for their ability and skill. Disabilities should also be taken into account, but never put on the same platform, for obvious reasons. And of course, some ideas are contrary to a constitutional republic for the people and by the people.
Did Samar say that bad things have been added to Islam later? But... but... but the Qur'an is a perfect infallible copy of what Allah directly dictated to Mohammed, perfectly preserved over centuries, right? (Sorry, but it pricked up my ears hearing that from a Muslim. I don't think you're wrong, mind you. But other Muslims might have a problem with that interpretation.)
CTS: I hope the Bible got at least the part about Satan being real right. He seems like an honest and righteous dude compared to the narcissistic and megalomaniacal figure called god. 🙂↔️
00:00 Intro
13:31 Arti-(UK) | If Everything Is Atoms, What Matters?
37:59 Patrick-FL | Do What You Will But Don't Infringe On Others
41:14 Samar-(PK) | Comfort In Seeing Loved Ones Again
1:05:04 Nikol-(AM) | Motivation To Not Do Bad Things
1:24:12 Jasyon-(AU) | Questions Of Trans In Society
Put a tag on Forrest's butt-sex line. Please and thank you in advance.
Thank you for taking the time to actually answer the Australian caller's questions. It is appreciated as it is refreshing to hear the conversation instead of having it shut down because a person is deemed a bigot for asking questions about a hot button topic that they are honestly trying to understand. I'm a progressive, but I have become disillusioned in the past few years by being told certain that questioning the nuance of "woke" topics (for lack of a better word) is itself considered hateful.
Thank you both for your intelligence and respectful demeanor. Always a delight listening to you, especially needed now.
Seth and Forrest Thank You for what you do! You guys are Rockstars!
They are not rockstars. Saying "you're rockstars" is comparing them to something you perceive as "better" than their actual position. That's like saying to Prince "you're a biologist". Forrest is actually a biologist, a teacher, a UA-camr - all amazing things in their own right. I know it's pedantic and silly, but being called a rockstar is not really a compliment to a biologist, unless you strip the compliment of all meaning and just call it a compliment, in which case just tell them they are amazing on their own terms. Pet hate, hence the rant ;)
I think the term Rockstar means they are Super Cool. Right on.
i think your overthinking it @@joelonsdale
@@joelonsdale
Slow down there fella. Saying someone is a rockstar, is just saying someone is the best in their field or in what ever they might be doing with an aspiration for excellence and achievement of excellence.
“Why does something need to be permanent to have value?”
Anyone ever been to a sand sculpture competition at the beach? You see some awesome art work, don’t you? Truly memorable stuff.
We don’t have ice sculpture competitions in Australia, but I imagine they’re the same.
A delicious meal is fabulous and found valuable in more than one way. Most things we value in this life are temporary. That makes the time we have them precious.
It's like saying a human being has no value since everyone will die.
They are so afraid that they have to say that no one dies. It's just some go to live in an eternity endlessly worshipping a narcissistic god and the rest are tortured for an eternity if you didn't worship a narcissistic god with no evidence of existing.
I saw a show once where some monks of some Buddhist -type religion had spent MONTHS making a mandala with colored sandstone rubbings on the sidewalk and one day, some toddler came along, looked at it, and promptly decided to jump on it and run around, completely ruining it. It took my breath away and I felt horrible for a minute but those monks just smiled and reassured his (horrified) mother that it was ok...all things are temporary.
Would theists agree that their mothers and fathers and children have value? They are also temporary and ultimately pointless.
You'd want to work fast if you wanted to take up ice sculpture, up here in Qld, that's for sure! ... though Tassie in winter is a better prospect.
Good duo right here, Seth always seems to defer a bit to the regular hosts to give them the floor to talk more but I always appreciate his perspective and approach and wish he would get more airtime
I'm an atheist but was raised in a Christian family. We were Episcopalian. My mother always said the good thing about being an Episcopalian was that you could pretty much believe whatever you wanted to 😄🤗. I never had a fear of hell or felt god was watching everything I was doing. It just didn't make sense to me. My doubts began when I was 12 years old and was taking confirmation classes. I asked the priest if people who had never heard of Jesus would go to hell. He said yes, because belief in Jesus was the only way to get into heaven. I was shocked and appalled.
So, here I am, 75 yo, believing pretty much what I want to. Thank you, mother, for giving me that freedom of thought. My deconstruction, unlike many others, has been relatively painless.
The conversation with Samar was a breath of freah air. This entire show has been interesting and enlightening. Thank you!!
My response to the “Were you there?” canard is “Yes, as a matter of fact I _was_ there; and everything happened the way that scientists say it did.”
"Prove I wasn't there."
@KeplersDream Brilliant! (And please forgive me for explicitly saying what I think you are already implying😂) Then when they say "No you were not there." Of course I'll say "How can you know I wasn't there? Where you there?" 😂 Afterall, there is a real possibility that the atoms that are ME may well have been there. Whoa, that sounds like some real bong insight there. 🤯
@@siezethebidet I think there is an even more interesting gambit here. What @mirandarensberger6919 said kind of leads there. Because most arguments you could bring up against the claim of "I have been there." are also arguments against religion. So you can use the same rebuttals that theists would use, making the other person argue against these arguments.
@@siezethebidet If they deny that I was there I'd ask, "Were you there to see what was there, or did you scientifically deduce that I wasn't there?"
@@siezethebidet Actually you should say I was there and I remember everybody who was there with me and you weren't there. That way they can't rip off you statement.
I would answer Arti’s question, concerning value, thusly: Sentient beings are capable of comfort, joy, pleasure and happiness. We are, also, capable of misery. Life is valuable because of love, joy, pleasure and happiness. Meaning is derived by making life a more enjoyable place. I enjoy making my grandchildren laugh and helping their life to be more enjoyable. How does death take that value away? When I’m on my death bed, these memories will bring comfort. When I’m dead, the struggle is over. When I lose a loved one, I take comfort in knowing that I helped make their life more enjoyable. It doesn’t take away all the pain, but it gives comfort.
That’s a good answer! I think I came to agree with what was suggested from this call, meaning comes from consciousness and sentience and the fact that that is a temporary result of the atoms making up people existing as they are makes it if anything more precious.
I'd add to that Mark, by looking from the other direction: what you do in this life echoes into the future in the lives of those you influenced (for the better or worse). Your interactions with your grandchildren will be templates that they will use with their grandkids, and on and on. Sure the echoes fade and merge with others, but they matter now and into the future, even when you are gone.
Thank you guys . Great show as always!
If everything is atoms, then everything matter. 😐
I don’t trust atoms, they make up everything.
Any video that starts with a quote from Ken Ham is gonna be a bumpy ride. 😅
I agree with Forest's cosmic nihilism, but I would also add that meaning is an emergent property of biological organisms. "Meaning" is the mapping of sensory-motor inputs to relatively abstract mental representations, which primarily occurs in animals with complex forebrains.
Forrest has a very limited explanation of his understanding of what he calls universal nihilism. Lol
human ego has a really hard time getting over- 'why am I here? there MUST be a point'.
That the cosmos owes you nothing, and doesn't give a $hit either way how you feel about it, isn't a very comforting, even if very probably true 'answer'.
The excitement that explodes from Forrest when Arti mentioned which science they're in, is a sight to behold. Wonderful.
Seth and Forrest, you’re the best. ( and all your friends)!
Thanks!
Arti, if you are here reading the comments, I really liked the Crash Course series that talked about philosophy. That can at least introduce you to a lot of philosophers and their ideas in a very short time span, and then you can investigate whatever route you want to from there.
I am trying to read the comments in between cringing at how stammery I was lol! Thanks for the suggestion, I didn’t know crash course had a philosophy series, I’ll check it out!
@ Oh, you sounded awesome! I loved your conversation. If it makes you feel better, I think psychologically most everybody doesn’t like hearing themselves from recordings. Something about the fact that the way you hear your own voice, like through the bones and meat of your own skull, sounds fundamentally different than how everyone else hears you. In any case, I went and re-reviewed the series, and I found number 16: Existentialism particularly interesting. I really liked the part about the WWII soldier that’s needs to decide to stay home and help his sick mother, or go to war. He can have a big significance for one person, or a small significance, but for many people. You may want to start with that episode. If you like philosophy, another channel I like is Philosophy Engineered! In particular his videos about What is Truth? And also What is Logic? I hope you like those and lmk what you think. Lmk if you want more suggestions, I’ve added so many science, math, and theist response videos to my sub feed, lol. And good luck with the doctorate! It’s a long grueling process, but it feels so good once you’re done!
Seth....greatest poker face ever!
"Were you there?"
Well, I mean, my atoms were probably there. Does that count?
Two of the best hosts right here.
Ken Hamm looks so old I bet he was there at the Resurrection. He's the only guy whose birth year on his drivers license is listed as BC.
Enoch was his younger brother.
Yet, he's only 22 years old. Strange huh.
On the day grass evolved, Ken Hamm yelled at kids to get off his lawn.
Ken Hamm is so old that:
The dinosaurs died out because the neighborhood kids kept throwing their eggs at his house.
The Grand Canyon used to be a crack in his driveway.
Romulus wanted to build a seaport, but Ken and his friends were playing beach volleyball and chased him away.
His family physician was Hippocrates.
His first job was holding Rosetta's chisels when she was carving her stone.
Ken was messing around with the singularity one day when all of a sudden . . .
Well done Arti for finally seeing the light!
I adore this host combination SO MUCH. Especially when one of these is in PhilosoFace mode.
52:00 -- on the invisible person sitting in the chair, it had limited effect. What I found interesting was that, after a while, one of the kids in one trial tried talking to the invisible person. When he got no response, he and the other kids began to question what was up. So the first kid gets up and slowly walks to the chair and eventually touches it to find out no one is sitting there. Thus, we have a real world example of how skepticism and testing out a claim can lead to atheism. These kids became invisible princess atheists. 🙃
25:55 yess you're on your right track caller 👏👏👏
Theist here, what a pleasant episode. Especially love the Australian caller struggling with a typical talking point and Forrest's genuine patient answer.
""There must be more""
These people want afterlife. That's what it all boils downn to
When they ask "Were you there?" respond with "Were you?"
"They cannot raise to our level". Well said, brilliant.
😆 “They were a very impressive they/them.” They’ve got this spirit!
I hope the Bible at least got that bit with Elisha and the bears right
Instantly my favorite call from Patrick.
jesus Forrest do you ever stop working?
I hope it's true that you could stay alive in a fish's stomach for three days if necessary. Why do I hope this? Don't worry about that, I just do.
“Don’t worry about that. . . . “
That’s funny shit, Miranda!
Good luck!
If your takling about the bible… whales Are not fish but mammals
@donjuan123 The Hebrew doesn't say "whale", it says "large fish". In context, it just meant "large sea creature", because the ancient Israelites didn't make the distinction. Also, it's fiction.
@ C’mon man. The Bible calls it a fish Jonah 1:17.
If you’re going to seem critical of the post of another first be sure that they’re wrong and you’re right.
The Bible does not use any taxonomic terminology but simply refers to everything bringing forth after their “kind”.
@@mirandarensberger6919
The Catholic Church
once declared the beaver to be a fish,
in order to feed people during 40 days of fasting 😂
When someone says the buzzword "deconstruction" that's an instant autoskip of a call.
13:31 Arti-(UK) | If Everything Is Atoms, What Matters?
I can't decide if this is a good question or a stupid question (which probably means it is a good question)
I can only come up with questions that it begs.
1. Why does Arti's dad think that anything does matter?
2. What would things have to be made out of in order for things to matter?
3. How would a species that evolved into behaving as if its own self didn't matter behave?
Which brings me to my semi-conclusion, perhaps we need to instinctively feel our own self importance in order to successfully evolve.
Alas I am a Boh Rap Coda,
"Nothing really matters
Anyone can see
Nothing really matters
Nothing really matters to me"
Freddie Mercury
Jeez what a day
Also recently deconverted Australian. Heart-warming to hear from the Australian ex-Mormon (I was Pentecostal/charismatic). Can so relate to eschewing intellectual exploration for fear of *being deceived*. Religion sucks.
You deconverted from being Australian?
Funny Forest and Seth “the voice” it’s gunna be a good show 4:03
6:49 if the Bible was true, poor and suffering get mega pay day cause it fits my circumstances
PhilosoFACE! Stealing that.
1:12:31 THAT PART
Seth caring about animals makes me like him even more. He has a good heart.
Most of your atheist friends view animals as slaves to be farmed or used as pets for personal comfort.
@Apotheosis-81 Please, no one take this obvious bait
@Apotheosis-81 as opposed to the 'good' book? Genesis 1:26-30
@@Apotheosis-81A gross misrepresentation, a hasty generalization fallacy and a strawman fallacy. Are you proud of yourself, for being a simpleton?
@@Apotheosis-81
You say that as if you're ignorant of what your hole-y babble says about animals.
That or you're just playing dishonest projection games.
Ref: The notion that things must last forever to have value. Permanence, like other notions of absolutes, is an illusion emerging from human imagination in response to emotions like fear and desire. Buddhists monks acknowledge transience (impermanence) by creating beautifully intricate and colorful sand mandalas, (imaged models of a "perfect universe") just to sweep them away once finished.
I hope the Bible at least got the recipe for unleavened bread right. I'm not risking a second Passover disaster with a gummy, yeasty abomination.
Funny shit!
I saw Gummy Yeast Abomination open for Pearl Jam . . . I’m pretty sure.
@@xmillion1704😂😂😂
What kind of in-ear monitors does Forrest use? I'm looking for a pair like this.
Doesn’t Seth sound a bit like Bill Maher..? 😅 and Seth is so very kind.. he’s awesome 🥰
Would love more information on the "chair experiment" being mentioned in the call with Samar. I engaged Google but didn't find any answers.
If an adult said "Were you there?" I'd laugh and say "Hey, I was once 5 years old, too."
I like what Forest said about leaving the left overs from the main harvest for anyone who is in need.
In the neighborhood that I grew up in, there was a wealthy land owner of a strawberry field who would allow us to glean the fields. It was awesome and an indelible memory.
I also remember when I attended church, my pastor described this scripture as God's welfare program.
Thanks Forest for sharing that thought.
What happens when an entire city of people starts coming for the farmers crops? How much money, time, and hard work does the farmer put forward for masses of lazy people that come like locusts to feed?
@@Apotheosis-81 this happens in china.. whole crops are stolen, some even before they are ripe.
It is a nice idea, and in a rural setting with no available cars or trucks, it would work. In some places, some fields/crops can be afterharvested by locals like your strawberryfield.
The problem is modern thieves, they do not care about the mutual respect that is needed here.
Sometimes there will not be enough crops to cover the farmers own needs, is he still supposed to give away a part? Not big needs, not money needs, but simply the amount he needs to feed his family and livestock over winter. Is he supposed to kill some animals because he cant feed them, just to feed some possible strangers?
13:31 Arti. Don't worry about the atheist position on meaning (there isn't one) Instead, question your OWN position. Namely, exactly how does god existing give your life meaning? That then brings up the issue that if you are basing your meaning on god, then you better be 100% sure one exists and that you've got the right one, otherwise you've got nothing but a great big maybe, which atheism also offers.
Cheers for the question, it’s a really good one. I’ve started that questioning when I first started on this journey and I’m still finding answers, but that’s a good way to frame it that I hadn’t thought before. I’ll definitely think about it!
As born and bred southern white guy, I've never understood the negative "black people and fried chicken" stereotype. Every poor white family I knew growing up ate a metric shitload of fried chicken. How was it somehow "less than" for black folk to eat it, but "perfectly reasonable" for white folk? Never got it as a kid.
There is only one answer.......Unicorns!!!
Only one: Holy Unicorn, The Creator of Rainbows (and all the rest of the universe).
Pop culture has turned unicorns and rainbows into queer concepts. The original writers were most likely talking about a kind of rhinoceros.
@@Apotheosis-81 No way! And in this comment section, that matters because...?
If the Bible got one thing right -
Talking animals.
I talk to the birds that come close to me, I’d like them to understand that I’m not danger to them.
"Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fantasies. To teach superstitions as truths is a most terrible thing. The child mind accepts and believes them, and only through great pain and perhaps tragedy can he be in after years relieved of them."
Hypatia (attributed)
Finally, two good hosts.
12:39 I need this to be a metal band criticizing the bible the way you all do!
Lebowski deserves more than one view.
LOL. Seth, my phone is set up to 'bark' when my husband calls. That's where my mind went.
A comment on the beginning of the episode. 2°F is around -15°C. That's not too bad. Then again, I'm sitting comfortably outside on the porch having a morning coffee in -20°C Québec right now so I might not have good perspective.
Merde! Ce qui se passe, il fait si froid !
No wind and the sun being out.
- 5°F is a good day still
@@raymondmccurry9672 Naw. Try living on Vancouver Island in the winter. You will be more cold at 5° of damp air than -20° of dry.
Hopefully Arti is able to look into secular humanism since it seems to be a great way a lot of people ground morals without a god, then I’d suggest searching other moral frameworks online, if they feel they need. I think Seth is very correct they’re on the right path.
Thanks, I’ll definitely look into it, I really want to find as many possible theories as I can to make sure I’m not just jumping straight from one poorly founded moral system to another. So any suggestion to expand my knowledge base on it is great.
To the first caller, the best place for getting more information is the library. Reading is the best way of collecting knowledge and understanding. Imo. 😊
Oh definitely, that’s why I asked if they had any suggestions on where to start (very poorly because I was nervous lol). The philosophy section is a big place, especially at a university library, so I was trying to find a place to start. But secular humanism and nihilism seems a good beginning.
@ArtemisFowl_the_wise you did great. I would be very nervous too, if i had to speak and be heard by thousands of people. 😊 I hope you find what you are looking for. 😊 Greetings from 🇫🇮
Seven word comment.
UA-cam algorithm rules.
Visibility.
@@RexfelisLXIX I guess the corporate name portmanteau UA-cam technically counts as one word so I’ll award you this one . . . somewhat begrudgingly. Lol
That’s a cool layered haiku, so much depth, both in craft and meaning.
@animeepstudios9110 Thank you very much.
I hope the Bible at least got salvation by circumcision right.
Let's hope so, otherwise the three I got are useless
@ That’s hilarious!
@@xmillion1704
I haven't the headspace for comments like this!
CUT IT OUT
Ken Ham was onto something or Ken Ham was on something?
There is no god, never has been and never will be.
I just wanna give some love to Samar, I am from India.
Show volume is too low. Thanks.
I'd be interested to hear Forrest's beef with Sam Harris
Yeah, it's Iron Age *set* in a fictional bronze age. You could call it bronze age fan fiction sex manual?
If someone is looking for a philosophical channel, I recommend "The Preceptor" or "Le precepteur" if you pretty well understand french
And Jesus said "Hey, Mom, willya run home and get me my flats? These spikes are killin' me."
I'd suggest Arti contact their local Humanist Society. There are certainly books they can read on secular ethics, Sam Harris for example, but better might be to just think about how they feel about things, and try to figure out why they think those things, and maybe write it down in the form of a manifesto. Structuring it like that can help you to nail it down to bullet points. 😊
Oh that’s a great suggestion! I had a vague idea (like the caller after me) that maybe just do whatever as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone, and try to help as much as possible. Once I realised wasn’t compatible with Christianity that’s when I started questioning religion. So writing down something more solid and structured from what my initial feelings were might give me a better starting point until I can find a more specific philosophy that seems to fit. Thanks!
Arti - look up Humanism.
I guess youtube doesn't like my comment ... I wanted to add some nuance to the handling of Jayson's call. But apparently the topics discussed trigger some kind of youtube filter :(
" I hope the Bible got [the story of ONE REAL PERSON] right."
Some collections of atoms are included in sentient life and consciousness, which makes your question possible -- and your question obviously matters to you, otherwise why ask it?
The experience of life, while it is going on, matters. Wildlife cannot, in most cases, reply to this philosophical abstract, but all will fight for continued life.
@@MCodger I feel like for many simpler or perhaps primitive life forms, what we anthropomorphise as a fight for life is likely an intuitive struggle against a perceived threat . . . not to play semantics, but your post provoked my cogitative deliberation so . . . yeah.
(Your replying post struck me as a nonsequitur to your OP so it threw me at first. Then I saw both were you which did nothing to resolve my confusion.
Good luck on your QotW
Enki created everything since his creation myth is the oldest that we know about! wHeRe YoU nOt ThErE?!
Ooh, another Bible verse I hope is true? Any of the ludicrous number of times that it talks of "a pleasing aroma to the Lord". Because it's hard to take it very seriously when you can envision god floating blissfully towards mounds of flaming goat like a cartoon character smelling a pie.
I used to refer to my personal philosophy as “happy doom.”
We’re all doomed anyway, might as well throw your hands up and yell “WEEEEEEEE!”
@@Gnome_with_no_name I call myself a cheerful nihilist and I have the same philosophy
I call myself a cheerful nihilist 😊
@@lisalawwill4843 Look at us crazy kids, gleefully tumbling into the void.
Join us! We will sing songs and have snacks and everlasting blackness!
I hope it's true that God can't defeat iron chariots. When the Rapture comes, I'll just sit in my car and not get stuck going to heaven.
One of the old fashioned volvo's would be the best bet.
@@Biggles2666 My Volvo 850 turbo turns 30 this year and it weighs 2.1 metric tones, add another 120kg if the tank is full.
So I should be ok😁
Timestamp ±1:09:00 Forrest describes basic "kindergarten morality" and Nikol says "I don't think that's achievable.." It is achieved by billions of people on a daily basis! Most people in any community, in any country are just plain decent folk honoring the property rights of others (not stealing) not attacking or abusing anyone, in fact living quite peacefully among one another. If this were not the norm, the world would not function at all!
Religious moralists would quickly point to all those who do steal and abuse. They point up atrocities committed by humans with no awareness that atrocities (and even misdemeanors) are highly noticed precisely because they are the exceptions to most human's normal social behaviour. 🎉
Basic " kindergarten morality is not only achievable, it is overwhelmingly the norm.
BTW, Although I'm an atheist, one of my favorite books "Everything I Need to Know, I learned in Kindergarten." It's written by Robert Fulghum - a Christian (from Nikol's team) 😂
I hope the bible at least got the page numbers right... Gotta start somewhere, I guess?
Forest: you should probably stop people from conflating nihilism with pessimism. Pessimism, from a philosophical standpoint, means that you feel life is not worth living. You don't have to be a pessimist if you are nihilist. An optimist, from a philosophical standpoint, means you think life is worth living. You don't need more than that. You can want to live even if there isn't a supernatural being. Why would that have anything to do with anything? Don't let them convince you that you'll have to commit suicide just because you don't believe in their God.
No. Pessimism isn't that life is not worth living. The difference with nihilism is that Pessimism does accept that there is some degree of value or meaning in life.
For example, Schopenhauer, pessimist, saw art and asceticism as ways to mitigate a life that's filled with suffering.
@@ChallengeYourBeliefs no, that is nihilism. Per wikipedia's entry on "Philosophical pessimism":
"Philosophical pessimism is a philosophical tradition which argues that life is not worth living and that non-existence is preferable to existence." Q.E.D.
Addendum to that: you can be a theist and a pessimist. A message you can find in the bible is that life on earth is worthless and the only one that matters is the one in heaven. That's why you shouldn't get married or have possessions. That is called nihilistic, but technically it is pessimistic. Philosophy defines the word differently.
@johnobrien6415 So you quote wiki and that's your QED? 😄
@@ChallengeYourBeliefs No, but it shows that philosophy defines pessimism differently than regular speech. Kinda like science and the word theory. There's nothing to prove as that is the definition of the word as they define it. Which is what I stated, how philosophy defines it. I got it from an education channel by a college professor of philosophy, and Wikipedia confirms him. I'm going with my definition, and I don't give a damn about what Schopenhauer said. In philosophy, pessimism is the belief that life is not worth living, but that is not the same as nihilism. You can think life is worth living even if there isn't a God, and you also don't need asceticism. Don't listen to Schopenhauer is my advice. Find your own path.
FWIW Forrest does his 'cosmic nihilism' schtick pretty regularly to derive a positive outlook on existence even though 'nothing really matters ultimately'.
It's the glass is half full flip side of the argument- *BECAUSE* we are just an irrelevant blip in a vast expanse of the universe, that which is valuable is the time you have right here, right now and the worst thing you can do to a conscious entity is to deny it that 1 possibility and experience.
Arti - Dad asking them to Solve 3000 years of moral philosophy in 15 min please
lol, this is why you never let a chemist talk about philosophy. But I guess surprise for him because this show has given me a good answer to reply with!
@ArtemisFowl_the_wise I have great chats with my brothers about philosophy, if they are open and willing to discuss the mysteries of the human "soul" there's so much to debate - free will, consciousness, subjective vs objective morals etc
@arti the youtube channel "no nonsense spirituality" has some interesting ideas on nihilism. Regards
I’ll check it out, thanks!
I hope the bible at least got gods pronouns right. Hell knows all those natural-haired conservatives who have been influenced by the radical right are gonna throw a fit over it otherwise.
For Arti's dad shouldn't it be the other way around? If you are going to a better place and will exist forever then why should anybody hesitate to kill you? If you have a very limited time to get whatever you can out of your life then why wouldn't cutting that short be one of the worst things anybody could do to you?
It matters to ME that this group of atoms that make me up exists. It doesn't matter to the universe at all, and I don't see why I would care that I don't matter to the universe. I don't understand at all why I would care what meaning the universe, or some god, decides I should have. Even if a god decided some meaning for my existence I have no way to access that god's opinion so I have to live my life for me, not some hidden god's wishes.
1:25:52 Please Forrest, hell no. While our history is not quite as “extended” as the US and we never had institutional slavery, our record on indigenous rights is equally detestable, including the use of blackface to mock and demean the worlds oldest continuous culture.
Aboriginal Australians were still in boarding schools in the middle of the last century to my memory by the time black Americans were still segregated but somewhat independent within their own communities. I love the movie “Rabbit-Proof Fence”, it depicts that time in the Australian history.
@ that's a non-sequitur. There were well off African Americans during Jim Crow. In the 1950’s there was a systematic program conducted by the Australian government removing indigenous children from their families and placing them with white families in a attempt to destroy indigenous culture. While there was no institutional slavery in Australia it most certainly did take place. There were horrific massacres of indigenous tribes. Pygmies were genocided into non-existence. And today the indigenous incarceration rate, the poverty levels, the health outcomes are still at atrocious levels. I urge you to consider their treatment as a race as a whole , not isolated incidences of fairness
@ i would also urge you to not to use movies as a source of historic accuracy.
@@nevyn1854 you never watched it and yet you exactly described what the movie was about🤦🏻♂️
@Spanish-m5u well you are the one that claimed that Indigenous Australians were doing just fine because some went to boarding school while the majority suffered horrific injustice and despicable treatment at the hands of white Australians. 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Apot seems annoyed about something. Oh well. I certainty don't trust him or his like with any amount of power over others. Something to do with his desire to feel superior to others and wishing to harm others in order to do so.
That's just the thing with domestic terrorists that push godless social networks and laws on every facet of society, we are at odds. There can be no peace or compromise. We can't have freedom where people want to control views on God and science. That is the establishment of a theological concept in government
@@Apotheosis-81Well, certainly if you're going to demand power over others, there's going to be a problem.
@@amtlpaulYes. All war and battle comes down to one person forcing their will over the other. Some sociopolitical concepts are not compatible with our constitutional republic for which it stands.
@@Apotheosis-81Your desire to make yourself superior to others is pathological.
@amtlpaul I'm not with egalitarianism and pandering to things that are contrary to hard work, talent, and earning things. People get rewarded for their ability and skill. Disabilities should also be taken into account, but never put on the same platform, for obvious reasons. And of course, some ideas are contrary to a constitutional republic for the people and by the people.
13:50 Is there even any NEED to do "counter-apologetics? It still all boils down to that damn bible and it's not going to be re-written.
I hope the Bible at least got the existence of unicorns right.
(And that they are still around but just extremely good at hiding.)
I just crop dusted myself.
Hope you feel better!
I hope it was consensual.
Opps
Did Samar say that bad things have been added to Islam later?
But... but... but the Qur'an is a perfect infallible copy of what Allah directly dictated to Mohammed, perfectly preserved over centuries, right?
(Sorry, but it pricked up my ears hearing that from a Muslim. I don't think you're wrong, mind you. But other Muslims might have a problem with that interpretation.)
Patrick never has anything worth hearing. Can you stop taking his calls!?
Why is Forrest so cute?.... wait, yeah, focus on atheist thoughts 😎
I think sex IS an "atheist thought"... so carry on!
1:03:31 me
I hope the bible at least got the feeding of the multitude right. Jesus is going to have a lot of people to feed during his thousand year reign.
CTS: I hope the Bible got at least the part about Satan being real right. He seems like an honest and righteous dude compared to the narcissistic and megalomaniacal figure called god. 🙂↔️