@@ant1finox111 No, it was definitely LFP (the first ones with 50 or 51 kwh net and the rear axle performance engine). it was a Shanghai model. they never build NMC there. And also the sensitivity in cold temperatures was LFP like ;-). LFP was a big pro for me towards buying the SR+ back then. And yes, it did recommend charging up to 100% once a week. I am very passionate about electric cars and batteries and not the standard non caring customer :-)
@@ant1finox111ah ok. As written mine had 95.000 km. Initially when new it claimed a Range of 421km. After 95.000 still 399km doesn‘t sound too bad for me.
There is a somewhat recent video from Jeff Dahn about this very subject, and LFP was subject to higher degradation when charged to 100%. LFP suffers from partly a very flat charge curve vs cell voltage so there is merrit to charge packs with chemsitry like this to 100% more often than for example NMC/NCA. However it is still not advised as a daily routine.
I don't think most people know this info is out there. I saw Engineering Explained recently did a video on the LFP and appears to be referencing Jeff's work. Most of us have had it engrained in our heads that LFP is the way to go and that it is the million mile battery. Jeff clearly states how to get that million mile battery, but it isn't today's LFP's! LOL This info needs to get out there and people need to change their charging habits.
I believe lfp batteries degrade more quickly early in their life and then flatten out, unlike other chemistries that are more constant in their degradation rate.
@@markstephandoscar634 They do degrade more quickly at first, but you will see if you look up Dr Dahn's work the degradation is still going to continue and they do degrade faster because of the BMS issues and charging to 100%. They think they have a chemistry change that helps and that is likely what CATL and BYD have been talking about with recent LFP battery announcements. Still too soon to know if this really fixes the problem. It is a TBD. We were given a lot of marketing that LFP was the million mile battery, but does not appear to be the case with the current tech sold. Looks like they are hot on the trail to fix this.
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100% is a must in order to both balance cells and reset coulomb counting. However, it's enough to do it from time to time. For example, once a month. Not weekly and, of course, not always as Tesla said at the beginning.
LFP degrades differently to NMC. At first there is a bigger dip and then the slope is much flatter and the battery stabilises. Also the 'guess' factor of the bmc is much greater and only a charge-to-full from flat will give you accurate results. Recent tests and studies have also confirmed that LFP should not be short-charged to 100% because ( as with any Li-Ion battery) the last 10% are the most stressful for the battery cell.
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In fact, the last 30% double calendar aging. If you want to reduce calendar aging, just charge until 70%. And from time to time to 100% in order to calibrate BMS and balance cells.
Hi Bjørn, I remember you mentioned partner a new content manager after solving cash flow issues. This channel is doing fantastic! The content has been top-notch. Great work!
2021 M3 LFP with 65kkm here. Scan my Tesla reports 7.6 % degradation; 62/38 % AC/DC Charging, often charged to 100 % as recommended. Since some weeks I now only charge it to 50 % daily and top up to 75 % when I need to drive longer (~2x per week). I aim for 1x per month 100 % charge for calibration.
that's the right way... 100% charge should be done only once in a while for calibration purposes - ONLY. Although the LFP's don't suffer that much from 100% charge, like to others, they still suffer. 30%-80% rule still applies to LFPs
My 22 lfp has done 80,000km and I have recorded the range consistently since new. I plotted it and did a trend line and I’m losing 3km of range every 10,000km. The curve is linear, it’s not tapering off.
@@sergiuvlad88 so you have lost more than me by the looks of it. I lose 3km per 10,000 and I started at 436km so at 30,000km I was at 427km range. I’m at around 412 now at 80,000km so yours is losing range quicker than mine.
Yeah lfp dont want to camp with 100% either. Maybe not that bad as with nmc but still. But LFP needs 100% charges from time to time for the bms to know the soc. correctly.
Disagree. The Degradation is good. The Car had 60kWh gross capacity when it was new and around 57,4kWh net available (Buffer was 2,7kWh). Now after 2 Years and 60.000km the Battery has a gross Capacity of 57kWh, which is 5% Degradation. I think that is pretty good given the fact, that smaller batteries get more cycles and they are regulary charged to 100%. Also it seems to be the case, that the LFP Batteries mainly degrade by age, not so much by Cycles and Kilometres or DC Charging.
@@gjssjg How did you measure it? I have a 2024 LFP model 3 and my rated range (shown by the vehicle) has already dropped by 2%...(I charge at home with AC 99% of the time)
Problem with value 60kWh is that nobody has seen and measured this value, it is only on paper. If you you start measuring from delivery of car, you will measure only cca 57,4kWh. And you have to substract energy buffer to calculate usable energy - cca 54,8 kWh from 100% to 0% SOC visible on car display.
@@zsolthaluska4522 no car is 100% identical too many variables in driving and manufacturing of the battery cells.....whatever your battery state is right now is what your degradation is going to be. I've charged at home with a Tesla charger with very little supercharging, relatively none.
There have been quite a few videos about LFP degradation and best charging practices. From what I understand charging LFP to 100% daily is really bad for them especially if you are not discharging below 70%. They need more frequent 100% charges to keep the BMS accurate for state of charge because of the flat discharge curve.
Tesla's recommendation for LFP packs is to charge to 100% at least once a week, and to "keep your charge limit set to 100%, even for daily use". The car actually pops up a little warning when you set the charge limit below 100%.
@@JohnSmith-pg7eo Why would Tesla give out bad advice? They actually seem quite insistent about it, reminding you in the Tesla app, reminding you on the charging limit screen, and even reiterating it in the software update release notes.
@@Reason077 all any manufacturer cares about is the warranty term. Because LFP batteries have a flat voltage curve it is harder to estimate the state of charge, compared to NMC batteries. To simplify charging habits for the average consumer Tesla advises regular full charging to avoid an issues for people who don’t remember to fully charge their cars every so often.
@@JohnSmith-pg7eo If that was true it would be easy for Tesla to fix in software, though. They could let the owner set charge limit to 80% or whatever, but have the software occasionally automatically go to 100% when it needs to calibrate. Just like Apple does with their phones. So is this the entire reason that Tesla insists you should charge to 100%? Could also be that frequent deep discharging of LFP ( < 40%) is worse for longevity than charging them to 100%.
I have 107k miles (172k km) on my 2022 Model 3 RWD (LFP), and it only has about 4.5% degradation after being DC charged about 75% of the time (over 22 MWh). I full-charge it as much as I want, deep cycle it, and the car just holds up. I recently got back from a 10,600 mile (17,000 km) road trip with the car; really impressed with the longevity of LFP.
I also have a MY 2023 SR with 33.500km and 1 and a half year. Now the car displays 401km at 100% vs 418km as new. In the 1st year it dropped just 3km and now in the last months it dropped quite significantly in a short time. I charge mainly with DC (around 90%) but rarely to 100%, maybe 1-2 times per month. To be honest, it degrades more than anticipated, at least in the first years.
Discharge it to about 5%, let it sit for a couple of hours, charge it to 100% and let it sit for a couple of hours. You'll get some km on the guess-o-meter.
Well, that's 2-4% degradation for 1.5 years - the first 2 years are where the steep degradation occurres. Then it flattens out. I believe that's fully OK and nothing to worry about.
You can't and shouldn't estimate degradation using kms number alone that the car projects. That kms number constantly fluctuates based on the driving conditions. Plus there's always a "BMS drift", that is especially bad with LFP. You either need to calibrate your battery first and then use "Scan My Tesla" to read the number of kWh spent while driving from 100% to 0% (what Bjørn has done), or use battery degradation test in the Service Menu of your car, which takes a lot of time and burns off a lot of electricity, but is easier and more reliable. Find a video on youtube on how to do it if you're super concerned about degradation. I would just do a calibration and see that kms number go up a little.
@@solofreelancer Yes you are right, is not a precise indication of the degradation, but Tesla vehicles don't have a GOM. Their mileage is locked into the EPA at 100% SoC (converted to Km in metric countries) when the vehicle is new. When battery degradation happens, the mileage goes down over time so that 100% reads less mileage. Yes the BMS can be off with 1-2%, but after going to under 5% SoC and back to 100% while charging at AC, you will have a pretty decent idea of the degradation.
The most recent research from Jeff Dahn's labs report there is significant degradation with LFP. They are working on improved chemistries to help with this. But the marketing and advise given appears to be only partially correct. Look up Jeff Dahn's more recent presentations if you want the real scoop. The best advise right now is to only charge to 100% on an as needed basis. Space it out depending on how much you use the car. There was also an updated video by Engineering Explained that appears to reference this info from Dr Dahn for the LFP edition and for the NMC/NCA editions. Better LFP are coming, but we are not there yet. The real million mile batteries are in fact the NMC that are maintained at a moderate SOC in the meaty center of the battery.
My LFP M3 has the exact same degradation from new if you look at the total miles at 100% as a relative indicator. It has gone from 273 miles to 262 miles, current mileage 20kmiles (33k kms)
my argument is that regulators should force automakers to be more accurate, and have more stringent criteria, in their claimed total, and actual usable battery capacity. As well as, having SOH limit for replacement under warranty increased to 80% (or higher) of homologated actual usable battery capacity.
While sentry use a significant amount of battery, i don't think that alone would count for even close to the reported usage here, and standby-drain is near 0. After i had my model 3 LFP parked for 2 weeks, the drain was only around 1%. However, Norway have cold climate in general, and we do use defrost/pre-heating quite a lot, especially those of us who don't park in a garage, so i think it's very likely that pre-heating is the source of the majority of the remaining unknown battery drain on this car. I believe the LFP version also like to have the battery heated up more then the other battery types, so it pre-heats the battery more as well.
Indeed, most probably the biggest one is the cabin preconditioning while the car is not plugged in, as it is not taken into account in the trip meter, but uses a lot of energy, especially in colder climates like Norway.
@bjornnyland If I recall correctly The 60kwh SR+ had at least in the beginning an additional buffer at delivery of several kwh. The buffer was setup so that people would not get stranded , as the BMS had not all battery data yet. That buffer was removed as soon as the car was charged to 100%. I believe that some of your initial measurements of the new 60kwh SR+ had bad measurements due to that. Could you please verify and at least add a comment to the table. Just got my Knob a couple of weeks ago and was also a bit disappointed that My 2022 60kwh SR+ has roughly 5% degradation in 2 years and 32tkm in nordic climate according to the Knob’s app. But I still hope that the rate will slow down now. Keep up the good work!
9% on SR+ 12/2021 17k km, MIC. figure derived from full charge “range” as reported on %/“range”, new 444km, now 410km. 17k km, Mostly charged on slow AC. I blame regular top cycling which I have stopped doing.
I think Tesla has to do better, when it comes LFP charging recommendations. A lot of people including myself end up charging 100% way too frequently. I havent stopped until recently, when I came across a video on the topic.
@@ATICrossX Used daily but only short distances. And following the Tesla instruction to “always plug in and leave the charge level at 100%” it is that instruction that is being increasingly challenged, and the suspicion that Tesla is using the “always at 100%” to “enhance” the daily range of LFP models by obscuring a potentially damaging charging metric.
On my LFP batterie with 95% DC charges as I don’t have home charging capability, I have 4,75% degradation for 135000km. What did you have Bjorn on the sexy buttons degradation numbers??
2023 RWD owner in UK with 30,000+ miles (nearly 50,000km). I use Teslafi to follow how my battery is performing and it has, much as expected, apparently “lost” 4% in first 14 months. In practical terms she was originally offering up 272/3 miles at 100%, now offering 262. In practical terms I don’t believe most people have anything to worry about, but some education on what to expect will help reassure people I know.
I have Model Y RWD LFP BYD pack and the car is only 10 mounts old - 25k km. I have 4,2% degradation according to scan my tesla app. 60.7 kWh Full pack when New, 58.0kWh now. 2.6kWh buffer and 55.4kWh udable now. 418km rated range when new, now 408km. +-90% AC charging.
Sounds about right. I have a September 2023 Model Y RWD MIC LFP CATL with 15.000km. From new it said 418km now 412km. I have been top charging waaay to much over the past year.
I'm finding LFP battery degrades at approximately 2%/year and that mileage doesn't have a big effect. I have a 3 year old car that has travelled 30,000 miles that has degraded by 6.28% and a similar age car, in TeslaFi, has travelled 200,000 miles and has degraded by 6.51%. I'll see how it ages over the next few years to see if it slows up, but at the moment it seems pretty linear... This is based upon range indicated when charged to 100% however the figures do agree quite well with Scan my Tesla.
@@ksmith660 Mileage per se, no. It’s cycles that is usually the critical issue. That LFP are not prone to degradation from frequent charging to 100% ,especially top cycling is now being challenged.
This. From what i've seen from owners reports is cycles and distance travelled doesnt play a big part. The majority of degrations seen is just calendar aging. The calendar aging can be slowed down by lowering the AVERAGE SOC. So for example its better to charge to 100% once per week and drive it until it hits ~20% and repeat rather than plugging in daily and always topping back up from say 90% to 100%
20% degradation in 10 years would still be a lot. If you don't drive it a lot you would need a new battery after 12 years. IMO that is still terrible. My LPG car is 14 years old and 330.000km, no problems
@@bq5577x judging by other chemistries, it wont be 2%/year every year. Degradation is typically non-linear with most of it happening in the first couple years. Nobody really knows what the curve is for LFP for EVs yet because they've only been in cars since 2021. We simply need to wait to get more data
Latest info I have seen is that LFP degrades much quicker if you constantly charge to 100%. Its a massive difference compared to only charging to around 50%. Especially if you leave it for a long time.
Tesla LFP degradation is only related to battery age. If you find two LFP model 3 built in the same month but with 200k and 10k km on odometer separately, you’ll find them have almost exactly same degradations.
Now what I'd be really curious to see is compare a car that has been charged to 100% every single time it's plugged in like a lot of LFP 3 owners tend to do given the initial direction by tesla, vs one that is only charged to 100% once a week or once a month for calibration but has an overall median SOC of 50%. A lot of people seem to believe the misconception that LFP doesn't have faster calendar aging at higher state of charge, although its much better than NMC etc, calendar aging is still much higher when left at 100% all the time.
2023 M3 LR and i lot 5% already at 43000, the worst part degradation is speeding up after this May. I'm really disappointed at these numbers. ;( i took care of it like a baby.
@@Bercik87my 22 m3p has worse because I have panasonic batteries. But 5% is nothing, it’s normal to lose that early, after that it should degrade less per km&years. just don’t charge it too high
Same here, 2022 MY LR with 7% degradation at 60k km. I noticed the same behavior, as from may degradation increased a lot, lost almost 2kwh in a month, but I suspect it is linked to outside temperature increase and I also suspect I will get some back in Oct, once outside temperature goes down. Noticed the same behavior last year as well.
@@ionut-bogdaniordache6587 interesting. I would say the exact opposite. Our (battery's) biggest enemy is cold. I try to keep mine in underground garage as much as possible. Whenever it's not - it's usually plugged in. Cold days without cable were literally few in the course of entire year. I started to plot chart recently because it worried me and clearly since this May (11months since delivery) after my trip Warsaw-Berlin degradation skyrocketed. If it doesn't stop it's gonna be around 10%/yr Saying that much loss over so short time is "ok" is preposterous.
I have a Oct'22 M3 LFP. pretty much like the one in this vid. I'm afraid that After some 6 or 7 years the car will still be good for any trips up to 300km but on longer trips I think I will really start to see that I can not get to all my current go-to charging stations anymore. Now, I take my first stop after a minimum of 350km with still a decent buffer.
Any chance we can see how the 40kwh Leaf has fared over time. They are a popular second hand choice and interesting to see how the lack of cooling has affected the battery.
It was so nice experience to have Nissan Leaf as a rental car. Peeping all time about anything, only Chademo as only DC option and then finding Charging spots was a pleasure.
You should try Hyundai ioniq 5 or Kia Niro to check how the newer Hyundai/Kia models stand the test of time. From what i have heard, they perform very well despite 10 000+ mil of driving.
I drive a 2022 China-made Model 3 LFP mostly in Germany and Switzerland and have 120.000 on the odometer. Teslafi shows degradation based on 439 km range @ 100% when new - now down to 412 km which is a 6.2% loss in range. The degradation curve is pretty much linear over the 120K and time on the graph. I have been pushing the envelope on this battery pack though. I often have long and fast drives on the Autobahn and regularly drive it down to zero percent towards the next supercharger or on the returning leg back home after long drives. DC-Fastcharge is about 38% vs. 62% AC-Charing measured in added capacity. The car must have some good buffer left, because even 10 km after the 0%-Indication, there is no power limit indicated by the car or being felt while driving. Have not tried to run it dead though.
I've driven three Teslas from when they were new with approx 0 km driven. 19000 km 5% loss of stated range for Model S Plaid 2023 (no parking sensors) 17000 km 5% loss for Model S Plaid 2022 (with parking sensors) 58000 km 12% loss for Model 3 Performance 2021 I mostly drive on German highways and do 20-30% of total charging on Superchargers. Rarely exceeding 78-80% SoC. If driving in Norway, Model 3 is plenty - while Plaid has some advantage if you enjoy Autobahn. I've simply looked at stated range on the display when the car were new, and what they show later on. It rapidly falls. But once it hits 12% loss of range, it seems a bit more "stable". The Model 3 had 12% loss at 47000 km, but this was also the case at 58000 km.
I own a 21 TM3 SR. Range new was apx 430km. Never the promised 448km. After 3 years and 38000km it has 397km. Yes I am disapointed the degradation is much more than I expected. Also disapointed the WLTP is just a lie, and not even allowed to complaine under warranty.This is probably my first and last EV.
The problem with LFP is that due to the flat voltage v state of charge curve, Voltage can't really be used to estimate SOC. So to estimate SOC the car has to measure charge and drain but that drifts over time hence the need to charge to 100% regularly - because there is a voltage kick up at 100% which allows a recalibration HOWEVER - LFP batteries don't like being charged at the top end of the SOC zone - just like NCM. So its a bit of a myth that you can keep topping up LFP batteries to 100% with no damage
The thing is i did see someone test this can´t remember his name but he did say that LFP batteries need to be charged to max 60% to as when you charge it up to 100% everyday it is bad for the batteri even for LFP , so from what he did say best for LFP is to try and charge it up to only 60% and that will help the batteri to last longer. So i have started that now as long as i go to work and back if i will go longer then i will charge it higher when needed.
BTW If you find that range has gone down faster lately it's just that Tesla changed the way of calculating it after update 2024.32.3, you must have lost from 3 to 6 kms (maybe more depending on the engine).
2021 M3 LFP with 56k and ca. 8% deg. according to SMT. Used to charge to 60% in the first 1,5 years and more often to 100% since then. Didn't seem to make a difference for me, looking at the deg. over time.
My 21 SR+ is at 81000km now and I can only go by the range Display. When I bought it my Range at 100% was shown at about 415-420km (I didn't take a picture of the exact value sadly). Now at 100% it shows about 396-398km. So it's in the range of 4-6% Degradation. Maybe it would go up a little if I did the "calibration thing" but I am too lazy :) I have to say the 398 value hasn't gone down in quite a while now so the "early quick" degradation and then stable of LFP seems to show here.
According to the SMT data you showed, this car's battery pack has lost 3.5 kWh. Tesla calculates degradation using (Nominal Ful Pack) / (Full Pack When New) = 57.0/60.5 = 94.2% of original capacity remaining. Cycles don't seem to matter as much as calendar aging, especially if car is parked for long periods at high SoC and/or high temperature.
Björn, you should do the test drive until the battery dies - otherwise you cannot see the real degradation. Tesla LFP has a "programmed degradation": Every car of the same age has the same usable energy until 0% SOC: The LFP in the M3 is a map on the batteries age - which is a untrue obviously - but good enough to fullfill warrenty claims and usability. The riddle is what is left below 0%.
Tesla advertise to charge it one time per week to 100%. It can be used to charge everyday to 100% and let the charger run. But some LFP experts explained that a LFP will suffer like a regulair battery. The damage will be less but charging it one time a month for the battery management system is way better for degradation. Tesla only says it because you’re expected range can be messed up when you don’t charge it to 100% for a long time. For the LFP the best is from 20-60%.
At about 18,000 miles on LFP and sitting at 259 miles at 100% vs 272 miles when new. Like a month ago it was showing 262 miles at 100%. Might stop charging to 100% unless going on long road trip.
Mine is from December 2022 and has 12000 miles on it. It is currently showing 251 miles where about 2 months ago it was 262 and I’ve done like 3000 miles since then. I think BMS is miscalibrated on mine as I stopped charging it to 100% and usually charge to 50-70% only the other day charged to 100% just to find out my range dropped quite a bit.
The usage doesn't really appear to have any influence on degradation for the LFP M3. So I assume if you had a car with a few hundred kilometers and the corresponding cycles, the degradation per cycle would be way better. But finding such a car is probably not easy.
Degradation doesn't really go by cycles (the relationship is not linear). You can expect 5% within the first 50k km and then the curve pretty much flattens out.
Agreed. My standard range MY with LFP was advertised with 455km of range and from new only ever charged to 435km. Within a year it degraded to 420km. Couple this with the fact that Tesla are about to start changing customers extra to access the full capacity of their battery, this shows that Tesla are misleading their customers.
Charging to 100% is not healthy at all even to LFP battery, it's advertised to charge like that to make BMS work properly. The reason is that LFP has way more flat discharge curve (not as linear as NMC cells) and as you already noticed it kicks ass at now SOC no problem but then is suddenly goes to empty. Having it frequently at 100% SOC BMS knows was more precisely where real SOC is.
This seems to be in line with what I see on my 23 Model Y RWD with 50k km, around ~5%, for me the degradation seems quite big, I bought this car expecting the battery to be strong and to last and now I'm not so sure.
And temperature. In the solar + LFP battery storage wold, we tend to aim for 25C for the battery. There is significant degradation at higher temperatures. I wonder if those are part of the reason these degradation numbers are so high. I have LFP packs that have been in use for five years, sit at 100% in summer every day, and I'm not nearly seeing these degradation numbers (granted, I don't see high currents like in EV applications either).
2 місяці тому
@@PurpleAlienPlanet Temperature can be controlled. Time is not. 😉
I asked tesla about reason of my terrible range... they said all is fine. I asked about baterry degration they said they are not allowed/dont want to show me ...
11:57 So, tesla dont report any heating to drive consumption?? So total energy consumption with heat losses is on 60kkm/15Mwh is 25kwh/100km. There is line on software DISCHARGE TOTAL 15268kwh. You can calculate wh/km from that 😊
Haa, yes. Ideling, stationary is there, offcourse. Sorry my mistake. Had to check the lines in app again. Big ideling consumption, over 2000kwh is there. But winter stationary consumption is lot, when glass roof waste the heat out.
Dear Bjorn in metric system you can just write 60 Mm instead of 60 kilo kilo-meters. I doubt you write file sizes in the same way. For example 60k kB (kilo kilo-bytes) instead of just 60 MB.
LFP batteries can take 100% charge more frequently than NMC, but it's still quite harmful. Watch this if you want to know why and what the optimal charging regime for LFP is: ua-cam.com/video/w1zKfIQUQ-s/v-deo.html A short summary: Try and discharge LFP battery as much as possible before charging it again, because LFP batteries like longer charge/discharge cycles. As oppose to NMC (nickel) batteries that like shorter charge/discharge cycling as close as possible to the middle (50%).
There are lots of documented Tesla's which have over 400,000 MILES and the battery degradation is pretty much the same as someone who would be charging it at home. The difference is almost non existent. So it's proven that if you only have access to Superchargers... your battery will be just fine. CATL have batteries developed with 1,000,000 km warranty and even a new one with 1,500,000 km warranty. if your vehicle loses a certain amount of capacity over that time. I think it's around 90-ish %... they'll give you a new battery for free. We're at the point where battery degradation isn't anything to think about anymore. I sure wont be thinking about it.
LFP batteries are no good. Too heavy, low power output and battery capacity issues requiring 100% charge to reset the battery capacity, which in turn reduces battery life. Tesla 4680 dry cells will become the lowest cost and best performing batteries. Hopefully, these cells are used by Tesla in my next EV.
@@Actarus28320same range smaller lighter pack. Longer range same weight pack. 4680 gives options. As the cost per KWh to manufacture comes down. From a supply chain, production line, manufacturing point of view ie less model variants per car per battery pack. Tesla could make every battery pack the same for every model, 3 and Y, and you just rent the extra capacity when you do a road trip. Why have 3 or 4 versions of sized pack when it’s cheaper to make one pack and software limit it to the version of car. It’s about cost of production and energy density. I’d happily rent capacity to buy a cheaper model 3 for day to day, standard range, then rent and turn it into a long range two weeks of the year for family holidays or daily rent if we go out for the day.
Well well? I am not surprised at the bigining it was the miracle battery the chinese manufacturer are just liars and now wee need to see how difficult it is to repair a LFP battery how do you melt all that glue .......just imposible😊
Hi Bjorn, i have a 03-2022 Model 3 RWD with 92.000km on the clock if you want to test it, will happily drive it to you. ScanMyTesla reports 56,6kWh nominal full pack
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LFP Model 3 SR+ 2021 Owner here..
309,000km Driven Battery Health via service menu reports 89% Health in the battery pack
395km total charge at 100%
Wow, I have the same car, and same 395 km max charge while 46k driven only.
WHAAATTTT are you being serious?!
Mine 6/2021 with 95.000km showed fully charged 399km of range
@@ant1finox111 No, it was definitely LFP (the first ones with 50 or 51 kwh net and the rear axle performance engine). it was a Shanghai model. they never build NMC there. And also the sensitivity in cold temperatures was LFP like ;-). LFP was a big pro for me towards buying the SR+ back then. And yes, it did recommend charging up to 100% once a week. I am very passionate about electric cars and batteries and not the standard non caring customer :-)
@@ant1finox111ah ok. As written mine had 95.000 km. Initially when new it claimed a Range of 421km. After 95.000 still 399km doesn‘t sound too bad for me.
There is a somewhat recent video from Jeff Dahn about this very subject, and LFP was subject to higher degradation when charged to 100%. LFP suffers from partly a very flat charge curve vs cell voltage so there is merrit to charge packs with chemsitry like this to 100% more often than for example NMC/NCA. However it is still not advised as a daily routine.
I don't think most people know this info is out there. I saw Engineering Explained recently did a video on the LFP and appears to be referencing Jeff's work. Most of us have had it engrained in our heads that LFP is the way to go and that it is the million mile battery. Jeff clearly states how to get that million mile battery, but it isn't today's LFP's! LOL This info needs to get out there and people need to change their charging habits.
Yup i tend to share video from EE about LFP and NMC because so many misleading info on battery charging behaviour out there
I believe lfp batteries degrade more quickly early in their life and then flatten out, unlike other chemistries that are more constant in their degradation rate.
@@markstephandoscar634 They do degrade more quickly at first, but you will see if you look up Dr Dahn's work the degradation is still going to continue and they do degrade faster because of the BMS issues and charging to 100%. They think they have a chemistry change that helps and that is likely what CATL and BYD have been talking about with recent LFP battery announcements. Still too soon to know if this really fixes the problem. It is a TBD. We were given a lot of marketing that LFP was the million mile battery, but does not appear to be the case with the current tech sold. Looks like they are hot on the trail to fix this.
100% is a must in order to both balance cells and reset coulomb counting. However, it's enough to do it from time to time. For example, once a month. Not weekly and, of course, not always as Tesla said at the beginning.
LFP degrades differently to NMC. At first there is a bigger dip and then the slope is much flatter and the battery stabilises. Also the 'guess' factor of the bmc is much greater and only a charge-to-full from flat will give you accurate results. Recent tests and studies have also confirmed that LFP should not be short-charged to 100% because ( as with any Li-Ion battery) the last 10% are the most stressful for the battery cell.
In fact, the last 30% double calendar aging. If you want to reduce calendar aging, just charge until 70%. And from time to time to 100% in order to calibrate BMS and balance cells.
Hi Bjørn, I remember you mentioned partner a new content manager after solving cash flow issues. This channel is doing fantastic! The content has been top-notch. Great work!
2021 M3 LFP with 65kkm here. Scan my Tesla reports 7.6 % degradation; 62/38 % AC/DC Charging, often charged to 100 % as recommended. Since some weeks I now only charge it to 50 % daily and top up to 75 % when I need to drive longer (~2x per week).
I aim for 1x per month 100 % charge for calibration.
Which number(s) should i be looking at in scan my tesla to determine degradation?
@@frenchieownz Divide "Nominal full pack" by "Full pack when new", can be found in the Battery tap.
Also, M3 LFP here. What's your average minimum charge before you plugin to charge?
@@eltaho Around 20 %.
that's the right way... 100% charge should be done only once in a while for calibration purposes - ONLY. Although the LFP's don't suffer that much from 100% charge, like to others, they still suffer. 30%-80% rule still applies to LFPs
My 22 lfp has done 80,000km and I have recorded the range consistently since new. I plotted it and did a trend line and I’m losing 3km of range every 10,000km. The curve is linear, it’s not tapering off.
did you mainly charge on AC or DC? My M3 rwd 23 shows 419km when full after 27k km. Charged on DC 80% of the time.
@@sergiuvlad88 so you have lost more than me by the looks of it. I lose 3km per 10,000 and I started at 436km so at 30,000km I was at 427km range. I’m at around 412 now at 80,000km so yours is losing range quicker than mine.
@@paulsimpson8990 how do you normally charge? AC/DC? how often to 100%?
@@sergiuvlad88 11lw AC and I charge to 100% a few times and week and run down to 5% as I do 800 to 1000km most weeks
@@paulsimpson8990
My has 129k and Charge 415 km ,at the beginning was 438 km
DC charging is not contributing to fast degradation, it’s heat and prolonged high SoC. LFP doesn’t like to stay at high SoC either.
Yeah lfp dont want to camp with 100% either. Maybe not that bad as with nmc but still.
But LFP needs 100% charges from time to time for the bms to know the soc. correctly.
Disagree. The Degradation is good. The Car had 60kWh gross capacity when it was new and around 57,4kWh net available (Buffer was 2,7kWh). Now after 2 Years and 60.000km the Battery has a gross Capacity of 57kWh, which is 5% Degradation. I think that is pretty good given the fact, that smaller batteries get more cycles and they are regulary charged to 100%. Also it seems to be the case, that the LFP Batteries mainly degrade by age, not so much by Cycles and Kilometres or DC Charging.
Agree, I have a 22 LFP MIC with 25k on the clock I don't have any degradation at all
@@gjssjg How did you measure it? I have a 2024 LFP model 3 and my rated range (shown by the vehicle) has already dropped by 2%...(I charge at home with AC 99% of the time)
Problem with value 60kWh is that nobody has seen and measured this value, it is only on paper. If you you start measuring from delivery of car, you will measure only cca 57,4kWh. And you have to substract energy buffer to calculate usable energy - cca 54,8 kWh from 100% to 0% SOC visible on car display.
@@zsolthaluska4522 Why do you charge to 100% all the time? It will degrade battery faster (yes, LFP as well)
@@zsolthaluska4522 no car is 100% identical too many variables in driving and manufacturing of the battery cells.....whatever your battery state is right now is what your degradation is going to be.
I've charged at home with a Tesla charger with very little supercharging, relatively none.
There have been quite a few videos about LFP degradation and best charging practices. From what I understand charging LFP to 100% daily is really bad for them especially if you are not discharging below 70%. They need more frequent 100% charges to keep the BMS accurate for state of charge because of the flat discharge curve.
Tesla's recommendation for LFP packs is to charge to 100% at least once a week, and to "keep your charge limit set to 100%, even for daily use". The car actually pops up a little warning when you set the charge limit below 100%.
@@Reason077 I’d ignore that advice. Once a month is fine and keeping it in between 40-80% for the rest of the time.
@@JohnSmith-pg7eo Why would Tesla give out bad advice? They actually seem quite insistent about it, reminding you in the Tesla app, reminding you on the charging limit screen, and even reiterating it in the software update release notes.
@@Reason077 all any manufacturer cares about is the warranty term. Because LFP batteries have a flat voltage curve it is harder to estimate the state of charge, compared to NMC batteries. To simplify charging habits for the average consumer Tesla advises regular full charging to avoid an issues for people who don’t remember to fully charge their cars every so often.
@@JohnSmith-pg7eo If that was true it would be easy for Tesla to fix in software, though. They could let the owner set charge limit to 80% or whatever, but have the software occasionally automatically go to 100% when it needs to calibrate. Just like Apple does with their phones. So is this the entire reason that Tesla insists you should charge to 100%? Could also be that frequent deep discharging of LFP ( < 40%) is worse for longevity than charging them to 100%.
I have 107k miles (172k km) on my 2022 Model 3 RWD (LFP), and it only has about 4.5% degradation after being DC charged about 75% of the time (over 22
MWh). I full-charge it as much as I want, deep cycle it, and the car just holds up. I recently got back from a 10,600 mile (17,000 km) road trip with the car; really impressed with the longevity of LFP.
2023 M3 RWD. 40000KM. Charging everyday to 100% with 3 KW Mobile charger. 427km was when new. Now 422KM
I also have a MY 2023 SR with 33.500km and 1 and a half year. Now the car displays 401km at 100% vs 418km as new. In the 1st year it dropped just 3km and now in the last months it dropped quite significantly in a short time. I charge mainly with DC (around 90%) but rarely to 100%, maybe 1-2 times per month.
To be honest, it degrades more than anticipated, at least in the first years.
Discharge it to about 5%, let it sit for a couple of hours, charge it to 100% and let it sit for a couple of hours. You'll get some km on the guess-o-meter.
My MY 2023 SR 16 months old with 38.000 km has 409 km.
Well, that's 2-4% degradation for 1.5 years - the first 2 years are where the steep degradation occurres. Then it flattens out. I believe that's fully OK and nothing to worry about.
You can't and shouldn't estimate degradation using kms number alone that the car projects. That kms number constantly fluctuates based on the driving conditions. Plus there's always a "BMS drift", that is especially bad with LFP. You either need to calibrate your battery first and then use "Scan My Tesla" to read the number of kWh spent while driving from 100% to 0% (what Bjørn has done), or use battery degradation test in the Service Menu of your car, which takes a lot of time and burns off a lot of electricity, but is easier and more reliable.
Find a video on youtube on how to do it if you're super concerned about degradation.
I would just do a calibration and see that kms number go up a little.
@@solofreelancer Yes you are right, is not a precise indication of the degradation, but Tesla vehicles don't have a GOM. Their mileage is locked into the EPA at 100% SoC (converted to Km in metric countries) when the vehicle is new. When battery degradation happens, the mileage goes down over time so that 100% reads less mileage. Yes the BMS can be off with 1-2%, but after going to under 5% SoC and back to 100% while charging at AC, you will have a pretty decent idea of the degradation.
Don't LFP batteries degrade quickly early on and then slowly? It'll be interesting to see how the car would be after 4, 6, 8, 10, 15, 20 years.
this. The ageing process is very nonlinear in the beginning
not only LFP, but in general
The most recent research from Jeff Dahn's labs report there is significant degradation with LFP. They are working on improved chemistries to help with this. But the marketing and advise given appears to be only partially correct. Look up Jeff Dahn's more recent presentations if you want the real scoop. The best advise right now is to only charge to 100% on an as needed basis. Space it out depending on how much you use the car. There was also an updated video by Engineering Explained that appears to reference this info from Dr Dahn for the LFP edition and for the NMC/NCA editions. Better LFP are coming, but we are not there yet. The real million mile batteries are in fact the NMC that are maintained at a moderate SOC in the meaty center of the battery.
You are interessted to see the car after 20 years? Based on that, which decission will you make?
This is true for both LFP and NMC/nickel batteries.
My LFP M3 has the exact same degradation from new if you look at the total miles at 100% as a relative indicator. It has gone from 273 miles to 262 miles, current mileage 20kmiles (33k kms)
my argument is that regulators should force automakers to be more accurate, and have more stringent criteria, in their claimed total, and actual usable battery capacity. As well as, having SOH limit for replacement under warranty increased to 80% (or higher) of homologated actual usable battery capacity.
Bjorn please come to LA and test my degredation. I have 211,000 miles on my 2018.
bet you have ay flight and so on… 😂 test your soh yourself, it’s not rocket science
But your M3 will be NCA based... not LFP!
lol, pay for his stay, flight and the work. He literally shows you how to do it, just do it yourself
I noticed on teslalogger that LFP are degrading as fast as NCA ... It seems that LFP's slower degradation is a fairy tale.
While sentry use a significant amount of battery, i don't think that alone would count for even close to the reported usage here, and standby-drain is near 0. After i had my model 3 LFP parked for 2 weeks, the drain was only around 1%.
However, Norway have cold climate in general, and we do use defrost/pre-heating quite a lot, especially those of us who don't park in a garage, so i think it's very likely that pre-heating is the source of the majority of the remaining unknown battery drain on this car.
I believe the LFP version also like to have the battery heated up more then the other battery types, so it pre-heats the battery more as well.
Indeed, most probably the biggest one is the cabin preconditioning while the car is not plugged in, as it is not taken into account in the trip meter, but uses a lot of energy, especially in colder climates like Norway.
@bjornnyland
If I recall correctly The 60kwh SR+ had at least in the beginning an additional buffer at delivery of several kwh. The buffer was setup so that people would not get stranded , as the BMS had not all battery data yet. That buffer was removed as soon as the car was charged to 100%.
I believe that some of your initial measurements of the new 60kwh SR+ had bad measurements due to that. Could you please verify and at least add a comment to the table.
Just got my Knob a couple of weeks ago and was also a bit disappointed that My 2022 60kwh SR+ has roughly 5% degradation in 2 years and 32tkm in nordic climate according to the Knob’s app. But I still hope that the rate will slow down now.
Keep up the good work!
9% on SR+ 12/2021 17k km, MIC. figure derived from full charge “range” as reported on %/“range”, new 444km, now 410km. 17k km, Mostly charged on slow AC. I blame regular top cycling which I have stopped doing.
Is it also LFP? There's a theory about this saying that LFP might degrade more as time passes than with kms or charging cycles.
8% on SR+ 10/2021 51k km, MIC
I think Tesla has to do better, when it comes LFP charging recommendations.
A lot of people including myself end up charging 100% way too frequently. I havent stopped until recently, when I came across a video on the topic.
thats pretty steep, could it also be from lots of sitting, because 17k km is low for almost 3 years?
@@ATICrossX Used daily but only short distances. And following the Tesla instruction to “always plug in and leave the charge level at 100%” it is that instruction that is being increasingly challenged, and the suspicion that Tesla is using the “always at 100%” to “enhance” the daily range of LFP models by obscuring a potentially damaging charging metric.
On my LFP batterie with 95% DC charges as I don’t have home charging capability, I have 4,75% degradation for 135000km. What did you have Bjorn on the sexy buttons degradation numbers??
2023 RWD owner in UK with 30,000+ miles (nearly 50,000km). I use Teslafi to follow how my battery is performing and it has, much as expected, apparently “lost” 4% in first 14 months. In practical terms she was originally offering up 272/3 miles at 100%, now offering 262.
In practical terms I don’t believe most people have anything to worry about, but some education on what to expect will help reassure people I know.
I have Model Y RWD LFP BYD pack and the car is only 10 mounts old - 25k km. I have 4,2% degradation according to scan my tesla app. 60.7 kWh Full pack when New, 58.0kWh now. 2.6kWh buffer and 55.4kWh udable now. 418km rated range when new, now 408km. +-90% AC charging.
Sounds about right. I have a September 2023 Model Y RWD MIC LFP CATL with 15.000km.
From new it said 418km now 412km.
I have been top charging waaay to much over the past year.
I'm finding LFP battery degrades at approximately 2%/year and that mileage doesn't have a big effect. I have a 3 year old car that has travelled 30,000 miles that has degraded by 6.28% and a similar age car, in TeslaFi, has travelled 200,000 miles and has degraded by 6.51%. I'll see how it ages over the next few years to see if it slows up, but at the moment it seems pretty linear... This is based upon range indicated when charged to 100% however the figures do agree quite well with Scan my Tesla.
@@ksmith660 Mileage per se, no. It’s cycles that is usually the critical issue. That LFP are not prone to degradation from frequent charging to 100% ,especially top cycling is now being challenged.
This. From what i've seen from owners reports is cycles and distance travelled doesnt play a big part. The majority of degrations seen is just calendar aging. The calendar aging can be slowed down by lowering the AVERAGE SOC. So for example its better to charge to 100% once per week and drive it until it hits ~20% and repeat rather than plugging in daily and always topping back up from say 90% to 100%
20% degradation in 10 years would still be a lot. If you don't drive it a lot you would need a new battery after 12 years. IMO that is still terrible. My LPG car is 14 years old and 330.000km, no problems
@@bq5577x judging by other chemistries, it wont be 2%/year every year. Degradation is typically non-linear with most of it happening in the first couple years. Nobody really knows what the curve is for LFP for EVs yet because they've only been in cars since 2021. We simply need to wait to get more data
Latest info I have seen is that LFP degrades much quicker if you constantly charge to 100%. Its a massive difference compared to only charging to around 50%. Especially if you leave it for a long time.
Where did you get that? The chemical structure of LFP should be much more stable at 100% than NMC/NCA, so that doesn't align with most info.
@@GoofyChristoffer It does "better" with degradation from high SoC, but LFP is not 100% resistant to it. Not at all.
Tesla's recommendation for LFP packs is to charge to 100% at least once a week, and to "keep your charge limit set to 100%, even for daily use".
My 2022 Model 3 RWD (LFP) has ~120 000 kms and has around 6.4% degradation according to the Tessie app. Around 80% AC charged, 20% DC charged.
@@hayden4857 what’s the displayed range out of interest?
Last year I had 59,0 kWh Usable Remaining in new 2023 Model Y Rwd according to ScanMyTesla. Now it is 56,0 kWh. Degradation is 5 %.
Tesla LFP degradation is only related to battery age. If you find two LFP model 3 built in the same month but with 200k and 10k km on odometer separately, you’ll find them have almost exactly same degradations.
Now what I'd be really curious to see is compare a car that has been charged to 100% every single time it's plugged in like a lot of LFP 3 owners tend to do given the initial direction by tesla, vs one that is only charged to 100% once a week or once a month for calibration but has an overall median SOC of 50%.
A lot of people seem to believe the misconception that LFP doesn't have faster calendar aging at higher state of charge, although its much better than NMC etc, calendar aging is still much higher when left at 100% all the time.
2023 M3 LR and i lot 5% already at 43000, the worst part degradation is speeding up after this May. I'm really disappointed at these numbers. ;( i took care of it like a baby.
LR does not have LFP batteries.
@@DamianLesiuk It doesn't - but i'm referring to generic battery degradation from customer perspecitve. It's MUCH more than anticipated.
@@Bercik87my 22 m3p has worse because I have panasonic batteries. But 5% is nothing, it’s normal to lose that early, after that it should degrade less per km&years. just don’t charge it too high
Same here, 2022 MY LR with 7% degradation at 60k km. I noticed the same behavior, as from may degradation increased a lot, lost almost 2kwh in a month, but I suspect it is linked to outside temperature increase and I also suspect I will get some back in Oct, once outside temperature goes down. Noticed the same behavior last year as well.
@@ionut-bogdaniordache6587 interesting. I would say the exact opposite. Our (battery's) biggest enemy is cold. I try to keep mine in underground garage as much as possible. Whenever it's not - it's usually plugged in. Cold days without cable were literally few in the course of entire year.
I started to plot chart recently because it worried me and clearly since this May (11months since delivery) after my trip Warsaw-Berlin degradation skyrocketed. If it doesn't stop it's gonna be around 10%/yr
Saying that much loss over so short time is "ok" is preposterous.
My tesla model 3 LR 2019 NMC, has 152k on the clock and 8% degredation. 4500kw dc charge and 26000kw AC charge.
I've got M3 SR+ 2021 also lfp with 154k km and mesured degradation is 5.9% with 45% of DC charging
Great video
Thank you
I have a Oct'22 M3 LFP. pretty much like the one in this vid. I'm afraid that After some 6 or 7 years the car will still be good for any trips up to 300km but on longer trips I think I will really start to see that I can not get to all my current go-to charging stations anymore. Now, I take my first stop after a minimum of 350km with still a decent buffer.
Any chance we can see how the 40kwh Leaf has fared over time. They are a popular second hand choice and interesting to see how the lack of cooling has affected the battery.
Leaf 2018 40kWh, 6.5 years, 60K km, 30% fast charging = 14% degradation.
Leaf 2017 40kWh, 55000 km, 50% DC charging, 11,3% degradation.
It was so nice experience to have Nissan Leaf as a rental car. Peeping all time about anything, only Chademo as only DC option and then finding Charging spots was a pleasure.
You should try Hyundai ioniq 5 or Kia Niro to check how the newer Hyundai/Kia models stand the test of time. From what i have heard, they perform very well despite 10 000+ mil of driving.
I drive a 2022 China-made Model 3 LFP mostly in Germany and Switzerland and have 120.000 on the odometer. Teslafi shows degradation based on 439 km range @ 100% when new - now down to 412 km which is a 6.2% loss in range. The degradation curve is pretty much linear over the 120K and time on the graph.
I have been pushing the envelope on this battery pack though. I often have long and fast drives on the Autobahn and regularly drive it down to zero percent towards the next supercharger or on the returning leg back home after long drives. DC-Fastcharge is about 38% vs. 62% AC-Charing measured in added capacity.
The car must have some good buffer left, because even 10 km after the 0%-Indication, there is no power limit indicated by the car or being felt while driving. Have not tried to run it dead though.
Thanks for sharing. I’m in market for Tesla. Would you recommend M3 or MY RWD SR LFP?. Would be driving similar routes plus Italy
You forgot to subtract the energy regenerated from the charge total. The numbers work then.
Maybe test degradation also with different LFP Model 3s
recent reports suggest topping to 100% is harmful to lfp's (though less than lithium). Charging to 90% probably recommended.
I've driven three Teslas from when they were new with approx 0 km driven.
19000 km 5% loss of stated range for Model S Plaid 2023 (no parking sensors)
17000 km 5% loss for Model S Plaid 2022 (with parking sensors)
58000 km 12% loss for Model 3 Performance 2021
I mostly drive on German highways and do 20-30% of total charging on Superchargers. Rarely exceeding 78-80% SoC. If driving in Norway, Model 3 is plenty - while Plaid has some advantage if you enjoy Autobahn.
I've simply looked at stated range on the display when the car were new, and what they show later on. It rapidly falls. But once it hits 12% loss of range, it seems a bit more "stable". The Model 3 had 12% loss at 47000 km, but this was also the case at 58000 km.
do BYD cars degradation as well please! :)
I own a 21 TM3 SR. Range new was apx 430km. Never the promised 448km. After 3 years and 38000km it has 397km. Yes I am disapointed the degradation is much more than I expected. Also disapointed the WLTP is just a lie, and not even allowed to complaine under warranty.This is probably my first and last EV.
Got the same car with 84,000km and about the same degradation, avg 129Wh/km
Will be cool if you can do a battery test like this with a Xpeng G9 and if posible later on G6 also.
The problem with LFP is that due to the flat voltage v state of charge curve, Voltage can't really be used to estimate SOC. So to estimate SOC the car has to measure charge and drain but that drifts over time hence the need to charge to 100% regularly - because there is a voltage kick up at 100% which allows a recalibration
HOWEVER - LFP batteries don't like being charged at the top end of the SOC zone - just like NCM.
So its a bit of a myth that you can keep topping up LFP batteries to 100% with no damage
The thing is i did see someone test this can´t remember his name but he did say that LFP batteries need to be charged to max 60% to as when you charge it up to 100% everyday it is bad for the batteri even for LFP , so from what he did say best for LFP is to try and charge it up to only 60% and that will help the batteri to last longer. So i have started that now as long as i go to work and back if i will go longer then i will charge it higher when needed.
BTW If you find that range has gone down faster lately it's just that Tesla changed the way of calculating it after update 2024.32.3, you must have lost from 3 to 6 kms (maybe more depending on the engine).
2021 M3 LFP with 56k and ca. 8% deg. according to SMT. Used to charge to 60% in the first 1,5 years and more often to 100% since then. Didn't seem to make a difference for me, looking at the deg. over time.
How had been the battery charged? Since the new study that 100% always is also not good for LFP batteries, I charge only once a week to 100%.
My 21 SR+ is at 81000km now and I can only go by the range Display. When I bought it my Range at 100% was shown at about 415-420km (I didn't take a picture of the exact value sadly). Now at 100% it shows about 396-398km. So it's in the range of 4-6% Degradation. Maybe it would go up a little if I did the "calibration thing" but I am too lazy :)
I have to say the 398 value hasn't gone down in quite a while now so the "early quick" degradation and then stable of LFP seems to show here.
According to the SMT data you showed, this car's battery pack has lost 3.5 kWh. Tesla calculates degradation using (Nominal Ful Pack) / (Full Pack When New) = 57.0/60.5 = 94.2% of original capacity remaining. Cycles don't seem to matter as much as calendar aging, especially if car is parked for long periods at high SoC and/or high temperature.
i want to see the scanmytesla battery stats of mc hammer 🙏
Björn, you should do the test drive until the battery dies - otherwise you cannot see the real degradation. Tesla LFP has a "programmed degradation": Every car of the same age has the same usable energy until 0% SOC: The LFP in the M3 is a map on the batteries age - which is a untrue obviously - but good enough to fullfill warrenty claims and usability.
The riddle is what is left below 0%.
Tesla advertise to charge it one time per week to 100%. It can be used to charge everyday to 100% and let the charger run. But some LFP experts explained that a LFP will suffer like a regulair battery. The damage will be less but charging it one time a month for the battery management system is way better for degradation. Tesla only says it because you’re expected range can be messed up when you don’t charge it to 100% for a long time. For the LFP the best is from 20-60%.
I never mesuared the degration on my 2019 M3 LR but at least i dont feel it jet 😅
My 2020 54kwh has 13% according to sexy button 60k on the clock
Very good 💯
I've been offered a M3 SR+ 21 for £19k with 40,000 miles on the clock and a LR version for £1500 more (similar miles), what would you guys go for?
Only taken the battery to 7% and even then was sweating about it even though I had many superchargers within the area. 😅
3:36 What did the car GOM report as km range at 100% battery
Was also hoping to see that
At about 18,000 miles on LFP and sitting at 259 miles at 100% vs 272 miles when new. Like a month ago it was showing 262 miles at 100%. Might stop charging to 100% unless going on long road trip.
charging to 100% all times is also bad for LFP
Mine is from December 2022 and has 12000 miles on it. It is currently showing 251 miles where about 2 months ago it was 262 and I’ve done like 3000 miles since then. I think BMS is miscalibrated on mine as I stopped charging it to 100% and usually charge to 50-70% only the other day charged to 100% just to find out my range dropped quite a bit.
@@bq5577x We don't. Maybe once a week. Drive it down to 20% or so and charge it back.
My 22 LFP 20,000 miles is also at 259 (273 when new) -similar to yours.
@@zachlafond2652 things start to be better when you Americans stop using retard units
Interesting test🙂
Can you also test the Volvo EX30 Standard Range with 51/49kwh LFP battery?
Can't see that anyone else has tested this.
The usage doesn't really appear to have any influence on degradation for the LFP M3. So I assume if you had a car with a few hundred kilometers and the corresponding cycles, the degradation per cycle would be way better. But finding such a car is probably not easy.
Degradation doesn't really go by cycles (the relationship is not linear). You can expect 5% within the first 50k km and then the curve pretty much flattens out.
Isn't chill mode like economy mode on other cars? thus longer range
How many % does the owner daily charge to?
Agreed. My standard range MY with LFP was advertised with 455km of range and from new only ever charged to 435km. Within a year it degraded to 420km. Couple this with the fact that Tesla are about to start changing customers extra to access the full capacity of their battery, this shows that Tesla are misleading their customers.
Oh, you better get a bigger sample size to make sure!
nice !
Charged and discharged cycle difference might be coming from regen breaking.
Charging to 100% is not healthy at all even to LFP battery, it's advertised to charge like that to make BMS work properly. The reason is that LFP has way more flat discharge curve (not as linear as NMC cells) and as you already noticed it kicks ass at now SOC no problem but then is suddenly goes to empty. Having it frequently at 100% SOC BMS knows was more precisely where real SOC is.
This seems to be in line with what I see on my 23 Model Y RWD with 50k km, around ~5%, for me the degradation seems quite big, I bought this car expecting the battery to be strong and to last and now I'm not so sure.
I have Tesla Model 3 SR+ 60 kWh LFP at 93k km. I can give you some stats if you like.
yeah sure.
Is the LFP battery in that Tesla the same as the one in the new Highland RWD?
@@cemoz0132 Tesla didn’t updated their batteries with Highland, so yes, is the same LFP battery from CATL.
Does not tesla know the nett battery capacity when new?
btw my m3 rwd from 2022.12 had 62kwh gross (nominal remaining) 59,2kwh net. can send you smt screenshot.
The main factor in LFP degradation is TIME, not cycles, not kilometers. Cyclic aging is almost negligible. Calendar aging is not.
And temperature. In the solar + LFP battery storage wold, we tend to aim for 25C for the battery. There is significant degradation at higher temperatures. I wonder if those are part of the reason these degradation numbers are so high. I have LFP packs that have been in use for five years, sit at 100% in summer every day, and I'm not nearly seeing these degradation numbers (granted, I don't see high currents like in EV applications either).
@@PurpleAlienPlanet Temperature can be controlled. Time is not. 😉
Sure, but is it? I believe I've seen LFP-based EV's on this channel hitting over 40C cell temperature...
@@PurpleAlienPlanet That's not good, for sure.
aviloo formula for tesla battery pack:
"nominal full pack" minus "energy buffer". that's it.
I asked tesla about reason of my terrible range... they said all is fine. I asked about baterry degration they said they are not allowed/dont want to show me ...
Oh my days, gray hair in coming😢
11:57 So, tesla dont report any heating to drive consumption?? So total energy consumption with heat losses is on 60kkm/15Mwh is 25kwh/100km. There is line on software DISCHARGE TOTAL 15268kwh. You can calculate wh/km from that 😊
Common misconception. Tesla counts heat also.
Haa, yes. Ideling, stationary is there, offcourse. Sorry my mistake. Had to check the lines in app again. Big ideling consumption, over 2000kwh is there.
But winter stationary consumption is lot, when glass roof waste the heat out.
Dear Bjorn in metric system you can just write 60 Mm instead of 60 kilo kilo-meters.
I doubt you write file sizes in the same way. For example 60k kB (kilo kilo-bytes) instead of just 60 MB.
Lol What did he do to his car?! I have driven mine 40k kilometers and got 3,4% Degradation 🤔45% DC Charging
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This battery probably needed a few calibration Cycles where is discharged down below 5% SOC add charge below 12kw/h up to 100%
Here for the dad jokes - AC/DC one got me haha
Trade it in for a GM EV!😊
LFP batteries can take 100% charge more frequently than NMC, but it's still quite harmful. Watch this if you want to know why and what the optimal charging regime for LFP is: ua-cam.com/video/w1zKfIQUQ-s/v-deo.html
A short summary:
Try and discharge LFP battery as much as possible before charging it again, because LFP batteries like longer charge/discharge cycles.
As oppose to NMC (nickel) batteries that like shorter charge/discharge cycling as close as possible to the middle (50%).
4% in the first 2 years is OK I guess, but if it continues like this its not good.
At least Bjorn is honest
Second 😊
4.2% capacity loss
So all that tablet is useless, just get the little stm32 knob 🤣
I leased my ModelY SR LFP - so don't care about degradation!! lol
There are lots of documented Tesla's which have over 400,000 MILES and the battery degradation is pretty much the same as someone who would be charging it at home. The difference is almost non existent. So it's proven that if you only have access to Superchargers... your battery will be just fine. CATL have batteries developed with 1,000,000 km warranty and even a new one with 1,500,000 km warranty. if your vehicle loses a certain amount of capacity over that time. I think it's around 90-ish %... they'll give you a new battery for free. We're at the point where battery degradation isn't anything to think about anymore. I sure wont be thinking about it.
I don't think any Tesla LFP battery already has 400.000 miles.
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LFP batteries are no good. Too heavy, low power output and battery capacity issues requiring 100% charge to reset the battery capacity, which in turn reduces battery life. Tesla 4680 dry cells will become the lowest cost and best performing batteries. Hopefully, these cells are used by Tesla in my next EV.
LFP are the best option right now, we will see what's really behind the 4680 cells, we have only promises so far.
@@Actarus28320same range smaller lighter pack. Longer range same weight pack. 4680 gives options.
As the cost per KWh to manufacture comes down. From a supply chain, production line, manufacturing point of view ie less model variants per car per battery pack.
Tesla could make every battery pack the same for every model, 3 and Y, and you just rent the extra capacity when you do a road trip.
Why have 3 or 4 versions of sized pack when it’s cheaper to make one pack and software limit it to the version of car.
It’s about cost of production and energy density.
I’d happily rent capacity to buy a cheaper model 3 for day to day, standard range, then rent and turn it into a long range two weeks of the year for family holidays or daily rent if we go out for the day.
Well well? I am not surprised at the bigining it was the miracle battery the chinese manufacturer are just liars and now wee need to see how difficult it is to repair a LFP battery how do you melt all that glue .......just imposible😊
Hi Bjorn, i have a 03-2022 Model 3 RWD with 92.000km on the clock if you want to test it, will happily drive it to you.
ScanMyTesla reports 56,6kWh nominal full pack