I want to remind people that it's OK to call bands and their music shit, criticize them, and tell them to end the band. The point of this video is that Phil receives backlash for changing the sound of Genesis to a more pop direction, and I prove here that he never controlled the band. If we are going to be honest with ourselves, if Peter was still in the band, wouldn't he have wanted to go in a pop direction? Wouldnt he make the band go this direction with him? wouldn't he control the band? wouldn't he do everything that Phil gets shit on for when in reality Phil did none of that? Thank you guys for making this video popular and hopefully this will continue to fix the stigma that Phil ruined Genesis.
Phil Collins = admirable drum chops, but zero cool and deplorable politics. Like your dad dancing at a wedding with a rolled up copy of the Daily Mail in his back pocket, he might keep time but you wish he wouldn't bother.
"If Peter was still in the band,wouldn't he have wanted to go in a pop direction?".....No,I honestly don't think he would.The majority of Peter's solo music (with the ONE exception being the 'SO' album ) was never as pop oriented as Phil's.Peter was always more adventurous and experimental in his approach to music.The very next thing he put out after 'SO' was 'Passion',the experimental soundtrack to the film 'The Last Temptation of Christ'.It says a lot about the kind of artist Peter is for him to release his most daringly non commercial and experimental work ever following right after the most pop oriented and best selling album of his career.He didn't try to make 'SO' part2. I remember reading an interview where the interviewer said something to him like "you seemed to retreat from the limelight after the 'SO' album and didn't capatalize on your fame." to which Peter responded "Yeah,I was a popstar for a bit." "Fame is a nice place to visit, but not a nice place to live.".....I respect and admire that.
Nice compilation, but don't start from the premise that Genesis was ever "ruined". They changed as a group in how they worked together and each member changed in the way they approached songwriting. If stuff didn't appeal to a person then tastes obviously diverged. Just to back you up a bit though, anyone talking about going for "simple pop" when they started having hits, Turn It On Again is in 13/8 as Peter discovered when he asked to play drums on it at Six Of The Best, thinking it was in 4/4. Ooh, that Phil Collins eh? So sneaky with his rhythmic time signatures :-)
Poor Phil, takes so much crap in the media. The truth is he's a temendous talent, a class act and a hell of a nice guy. So nice to see this support for one of my favorite artists!
@@maximusmax4557 Yes. He has said Phil is quite simply a better singer than him, which is true. Phil has a much greater range than Peter, even though they have a similar cadence.
@Auras Sparsas The Retard I heard about the crowd booing. They were upset with the different type of album/music the band sprung on them. The "old" original Genesis fans loved the drama and costume Peter brought to the stage. While I loved the complicated music, Peter brought more acting, complicated secret meaning" stories/lyrics sound more suited for theater/live concerts than radio. While Phil, TONY AND MIKE continued together to write songs as A TEAM, they naturally progressed, as most bands do, with "the times, they are a changing" and morphed into popular pop. Genesis fans should just be glad Phil didn't "LEAD/FORCE" Genesis into disco like the BeeGees (and THEY didnt do too bad for themselves, either!!👍🥰😉)!!!🤣😂🤣
JusCuz410 hey watch out, you may have exposed a part of Collins not many know- Brand X. this mix of musicians will sho another side of Collins not many hear- get you some
Without Phil Collins, Gabriel's Genesis ("the old Genesis") would never have got as much attention. Collins brought Genesis to a huge audience. And to MTV, on which a rockumentary made me discover Gabriel's Genesis.
Once Peter Gabriel left, decision rights where taken by a one man committee. i.e. Tony Banks, with Mike Rutherford occasionally in attendance. this is the main reason Steve Hackett left, he was writing a large amount of material that was not getting on the Genesis record. To say Phil Collins ruined Genesis is utterly ridiculous, when he joined the band, everything lifted, they could easily have folded without him. in later years some of their more contemporary / pop influenced songs where written by Banks or Rutherford.. Turn it on Again came from a Mike Rutherford riff, Follow you Follow me - Mike. Hold on My Heart - Tony. Land of Confusion - Mike. although Phil contributed more material in later years, Banks and Rutherford where always the writing core of the band.
I'm a big Genesis fan from Trespass to We Can't Dance (and I'm a proghead as well. 80's Genesis is still proggy if you really listen!). I'm not too familiar with Phil Collins solo stuff beyond Face Value, but I am very pro Phil. He'll always be one of my favourite drummers. He's a very talented, cool chap who I'd like to have a beer with one day.
Lots of rumors and dilemma got answered with this video, thank you. Phil and Peter will both always remain living legends and also long after they're both gone.
Good albums, Phil wrote very little music on either of them and hardly any lyrics. He played fantastic drums and sang quite well, he still wasn't he singer that he became later.
I don't think anyone ruined the band, Duke was an incredible album, Abacab was awesome, Genesis was awesome, Invisible Touch was a pop album, but if it was anybody else playing most of those songs, they'd be highly renowned bangers, even We Can't Dance had some good tunes. I prefer every album from Nursery Crymes - Duke, but I could easily listen to most of their catalogue with a smile on my face. I also wouldn't diss Tony Banks, that guy is probably one of the best composers in the 20th century. Rutherford is an innovative musician as well, but thank you for clearing Phil's name, he's a world treasure and a music God and should be thought of as nothing less
The truth is that without 'Phil' being in the band at the time 'Peter' left, 'Genesis' would have been ruined, Phil actually saved the band with his talent! Peter's solo stuff is awesome and Genesis' stuff is awesome after Peter's exit. Also 'Phil's' solo stuff is awesome. Phil is one of this countries most talented musicians ever! If you're a REAL rock fan then you get 3 for 1, hell, down the road, you even get 'Mike & The Mechanics' thrown in. What more could you want!? Just enjoy rocking out to all their stuff. It's the music they all make that ultimately counts.
And did not even mention that when Pete left, Phil wanted them to be an instrumental band. He really did not want to be the singer. This is all so unfair. And it has followed him throughout his hole carreer. Poor, Phil.
for me it was always about the music....I enjoyed all of it from Genesis to both Phil and Pete's solo careers. I've always been thankful they shared it all with me. I was a great time to grow up and grow old together. And I can't wait to see Phil and his boy play!
Nobody ruined Genesis. I WILL say Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance are my least favorite albums, but people grow and change. NOTHING stays the same. But MUCH AGREED what this video says. Look at Calling All stations.......... It didn't Go back to the Lamb Era when Phil left.
Phil Collins was also quoted as saying that when he sings with Genesis, he's "playing a roll" which is different than when he sings his solo stuff he's "more himself." Great video!
Thank you for explaining what I have been saying for years....Phil did NOT ruin Genesis!!! I've always felt that IF Peter had stayed in the band, it would never have gotten to new heights as they did reach in the 80s. Over 500K fans at the last show in Rome sure looked happy and enjoying the show!!!
💙Absolutely!! lol And Phil did NOT ruin Genesis!! While Peter was clearly "the STAR🌟" of the show with his drama/costumes/acting, the rest of the band was just background, unless you were grooving on the music from their album.🥰 After Peter left, the original band members Tony and Mike would have NEVER "allowed" Phil to takeover/FORCE the band to go in a new more modern/popular direction, but like I say, "the times, they are a changing", and I thank God for Phil!🙏👏🥰
I loved Gabriel with Genesis but I preferred overall Collins with Genesis, and thank god they got him in on vocals, could have missed some of the best music ever written if they split after Pete left! They’re music legacy with both vocalists is massive ! The masters of progressive rock and genius songwriters. Tears of love & joy and goose pimples arise whenever I hear their Music, Just the best.
without the popularity of Phil Collins in the 80s, and the fact that the band was able to continue with his voice on "Trick of the tail", I (we) would never hear about Genesis (as a kid in the 80s), and perhaps this band would have been forgotten since the departure of Gabriel in 75 (!)
i'm am a big genesis fan and you know what i hate when they say "that was phil collins and genesis" it's just genesis not phil collins and genesis just genesis
When Steve Hackett was still with the band in the mid to late 70s, the four of them were at odds which direction the music should go and this was clear during the recording on The Wind and Wurthering. Tony wanted to continue with progressive music they have been doing, Mike wanted to explore doing some shorter songs, Steve wanted to contribute more in the writing of the songs with more guitar solos, and Phil was still unsure of his abilities as a song writer but, was become more confident in singing. After the Seconds Out Tour in 1977, Steve left because he felt he was being phased out and he already had a solo album under his belt. With the changing music scene Phil, Mike, and Tony realized they would have make an effort to make some radio friendly songs or they would probably be doomed. Having their first big hit Follow You Follow Me in 1978 helped open the door to a bigger fan base, and they would continue to write and perform music for the new fans. Like the guy in this video said Genesis has always been Tony and Mike's band. To say that Phil ruined Genesis is absurd because one of many reasons Peter left was because of the fights he and Tony had over the direction of the music. If Tony had strong objections to what they were doing 1978 or later, it would have probably been the end of the band.
I've never known why people have so completely misunderstood both Phil Collins and Genesis. Both just happen to be vehicles for a group of songwriters and musicians to perform their songs. And each album progresses and changes from what came before in a natural way. There was no evil plan to become superstars. They just did what they did, and changed their sound along the way, like all great bands do. It just so happened that in 1986, they all of a sudden had THE RIGHT SOUND for those times. And that's something you can never plan. Had Invisible Touch come out prior to the birth of MTV, it probably wouldn't have done any better than their other albums. But the timing was just right. And that's not their fault. They just wrote great songs. I think people just thought there was too much Genesis and Phil Collins at the time. I mean, Phil especially pretty much dominated the 80's. But how can you have too much of a good thing? Is the reason for all the bullshit rumours and lies simply jealousy? Were they too succesful? I personally don't care how famous artists become or how much they change over the years. All that matters is if they keep creating music of quality. If a band goes from playing punk to polka, who cares? People are so damn possessive about their favourite bands and too afraid of change. In music, anything goes. It's just too bad that people focus more on fame than the work these days.
It didn't just happen in 1986. It was a gradual thing. They had a minor hit with Follow You Follow Me from their 1978 album And Then There Were Three. And when the Duke album came out in 1980, they had their first big hit with Misunderstanding. That was their real breakthrough. The songs from the Abacab album, Abacab, No Reply At All, Man on the Corner, etc. had lots of radio play. And more hits from the self-titled Genesis album in 1983, like Mama, That's All, Illegal Alien, and Taking It All Too Hard. So they had already hit the big time by the time of the Invisible Touch album.
Thanks for this! Not to keen on Phil's solo career, but his contribution to Genesis was huge, crucial and killer! The man was a beast on the drum kit, highly original and influential - and is a fantastic singer. Love Phil!
Oh I think a Phil Collins in one way, his personal musical abilities. Nothing else matters, nothing else. Get over it everybody. Thank you for all the great music over the years Phil!
It's really quite simple. Collin's solo success enabled him to return to the Genesis "collective" (by then, a trio) with a greatly strengthened hand and far more musical leverage than he'd enjoyed (or likely even wanted) hitherto. There was now a creative space there for him to expand into "within" the band. Just as Gabriel's costumes and theatrics had garnered publicity for the band, Collin's newfound solo success did exactly the same thing and gave the band a huge publicity injection, possibly even keeping them moderately relevant at a time when other bands were fast losing their public appeal. Collin's influence over the band's output soon began to show. This was entirely understandable. Collins had proven that he could "single-handedly" pave a way towards mass audience appreciation, so "serious" writers Banks and Rutherford would have been mugs not to want some of that magical "Collins" fairy dust to positively influence some of the band's output. This is where the controversy arises however. A "positive" influence for the Genesis trio would be measured in commercial penetration. For long-standing Genesis fans however, Collin's influence was now seen as a "negative" because it would pull the band further away from it's identity as a thematically-progressive musical unit. So, in many ways yes...Collins DID ruin Genesis, but the Genesis residual... (Tony & Mike) both conscientiously signed up for whatever "ruination" Collins was going to bring and are both strongly on public record nailing their colours to the mast in terms of welcoming (and defending) the Collins influence. If musical integrity had been a big issue for the pair...they had ample opportunity to distance themselves from Collins but they obviously chose not to do this. Instead...they opted to ride the wave of popularity WITH Collins and fully embrace a more commercial approach to their output. SUMMARY: Collins altered "Genesis" as a musical brand and the remaining two band members actively colluded with him in this endeavour. DEFENCE / MITIGATION: Phil, Tony and Mike will claim that they merely "evolved" as musicians. The revenue spike from "Follow You, Follow Me" (1978) combined with Phil's recent solo success in the singles market, (1981) likely had a strong influence on the band's decision to start ploughing a more commercial furrow for themselves. COMMENT: The "Genesis" of old....had more or less been dismantled by this time anyway. The loss of Peter and the exodus of Steve left a trio of musicians who had to decide how best to maintain and evolve the established brand that was "Genesis." This was an experienced group of men who already had "half a foot in the door" when it came to the public's awareness of them. They merely decided to push and elbow their way right through that door, and used all their acquired advantages in order to do this. Collins loaned the band some of the huge public focus he'd acquired for himself, and in return for this...Tony and Mike welcomed Phil into their "writer's club" and happily signed off on the "Collin-isation" of the Genesis brand..(pun intended) It might be argued that it was simply a case of "Evolve or die" for the Genesis brand at this time. But did that evolution really have to involve the shockingly acute dilution of musical integrity so many have railed against? IMHO...the dilution was only ever going to be as good (or bad) as the person who spear-headed it, and that was Collins. With the passage of time, I'm inclined to think that things might have been a whole lot worse and that Collins did actually exert great restraint on himself and his influence over his fellow band members. He continued to let the band breathe its own air (by and large) and this allowed some truly great work to be added to the latter part of their canon. Naturally opinions may vary!!
A brilliant assessment, and probably the best comment on here (including those by the video makers). I would just like to add, though, that it's a crying shame they went that way, because more albums in the style of '..And Then There Were Three..' would have given them the hits, while still allowing them the chance to occasionally stretch out.
@@odetteswann7694 Firstly, thank you very much for your warm comments re: the appraisal I wrote some two years ago now!! I've just paused for thought in connection with your comment here about group improv versus individual compositions. I genuinely think that the studio improv method of composition, which basically involved jamming or "riffing" certain songs into existence.....did actually play to their strengths as musicians and was probably the most egalitarian (and enjoyable) way for them to express themselves. Especially since each department now had its own unchallenged overseer (Drums, guitars, keyboards) Added to this were the technological strides which were happening in this time period, especially things like drum machines and sampling technology, which the trio were now ideally placed to both "afford" and experiment with, right at a time when they also acquired "The Farm" which would also enable them to mess with all that stuff without the scheduling constraints usually associated with commercial studio hire. So yes, I think some very strong material came out of this period, but as time wore on, I think there were definitely diminishing returns with this approach, and as you state, each member's individual songwriting (for Genesis) was never quite as good as it had been on earlier albums. Perhaps they were now all minded to use their own solo-careers as an outlet for their own individual compositions, which meant that these compositions would never be brought in to the studio to get the "Genesis" treatment, and as a result of this....the cupboard was always a bit "bare" when compared to albums from earlier times? Personally, I'm just grateful that my own life (and youth) overlapped the very best of their output, and I'm now inclined to just enjoy their full body of work....whilst judiciously tossing aside one or two songs which (I believe) fell below their otherwise high standards. Again.....many thanks for your comment.
Phil took Genesis to a higher level than Peter ever could have. Peter is a much better solo act, where he can construct the reality associated with each of his songs.
Anyone who has listened to Genesis knows Phil never took over the band. Tony and Mike's songwriting and playing is still prominent on every album through We Can't Dance and never took a back seat to Phil. If you want to hear what it sounds like when one member takes over a band, that would be Pink Floyd The Final Cut (it's actually a good record, just didn't seem like a Pink Floyd record).
The Boss in Genesis always had a name and that name is Mr. Tony Banks. Even in Gabriel's times Tony was the man with the last word on things. In fact Peter himself told the story about The Lamb and asking permission to Tony about doing that whole thing. And Tony was the only man in the band with the authority of tellling in Peter's face in front of the cameras and the other members of the band all together: "...The Lamb wasn't a great álbum and it was my worst period on the band...". The only difference between Peter and Phil is that Peter was always Tony's friend and will always be. So from time to time Peter did things without telling anyone tooking advantage of his friendship with Tony like cutomes on stage. Well that's never the case with Phil Collins. In the Abacab sessions Phil had the idea of incorporating horns on the "No Reply At All" song. But it wasn't until Tony Banks heard the final version that the horns was accepted on that track. It didn't matter Phil Collins was already a music star at that time with his Face Value album. The final word about the horns on that song was from Tony Banks. So the heart and the soul of Genesis not only in Gabriel's but in Collins' times has a name: Tony Banks.
You are right about Banks...His manager Tony Smith confirms it, that Banks was the one who musically directed the band...Even Collins in the latest interview for the Last Domino said, "Genesis is a democracy as long as we agree with Tony (Banks)"...Billy Preston said that John Lennon was the Boss Beatle...There is always someone in a ban with the stronger ideas and the forceful personality to steer the band in a successful direction, and that was Banks in Genesis, the indisputable leader
5:16 Phil describes himself as a "very good drummer". Is he just being modest or does he not know that he is one of, if not the, greatest rock drummer ever?
Phil got his fusion "fill" working with Brand X., He also was good friends with Bill Bruford who joined Genesis on their lates 70's tours. Phil played drums on Peter Gabriel's third solo album. They were and are good friends. If anything, Phil extended the life of Genesis by making them even more commercially viable. Up to and including And Then There Were Three, their biggest selling album was And Then There Were Three. I learned this after visiting the Charisma Records office in London. Yeah, they would know.
Totally agree with you about Mike and Tony being the ones who downplay the prog era the most. They were probably the most responsible for the conversion to pop
I hate haters! No, really i love all these musicians. They have given me out of the body experiences listening to their music. Gratitud is the less what people should feel for collins. And also for the rest of all other good musicians from around the world.
I really, really have to thank u for this, my friend. ..A Genesis freak since 73, ..of course broken hearted when Pete left... I confess, that after .."and then there were 3"..I am guilty of starting to blame Phil..your compilation of quotes shows me o was wrong, and now thanks to you, I have absolution ...thanks
Phil is the most musical drummer in rock. Hearing his work with Brand X should answer any questions. Parts of 'Dance on a Volcano' are about Phil moving into the light and feeling the pressure to get it right. I think Peter and Phil were best men at each of their weddings. Watch 'This is Your Life' with Collins (1988) and you will see Peter give a lovely cameo appearance praising the man. Another cameo from that program was Phil's good friend Robert Plant. It is hilarious. Total respect for Phil Collins. So lucky to have experienced his music.
Excellent! Genesis, both the early and later versions, is brilliant and innotative. Phil is an amazing singer, drummer, and composer. And the rest of the guys are gifted, too! So much for critical crap!!
The blaming of Mike and Tony is also misguided. When it comes to the criticism of the old songs, Tony likes the Genesis songs that he wrote and doesn't really like songs that were driven by Steve. If you listen to the interviews, that becomes a real trend (although he seems to like Blood on the Rooftops). Moonlit Knight was basically Steve and Peter, so Tony doesn't like it. Mike was the least interested in Genesis's fairy-tale-like songs. Neither are saying they hate all the prog-days songs. Quite the opposite, both of them love some of the old songs. Tony loves Stagnation and Mike has said that Supper's Ready is Genesis's greatest song of all time. (Yeah, duh, but if he really loved '80s Genesis so much, he might have chosen Land of Confusion.) But it's the interviews for Calling All Stations that really tell you in what direction each member was pulling the songs, and Phil says it himself. Tony was always going for the weird diminished chords that might stay with you, but take several listenings to get into, Mike was always in the middle, and Phil was pushing things toward "hooks" (which he called "immediacy"). Phil, after learning how to write his own music learned well how to get a listener to like a piece of music immediately upon hearing it, and he said that he pushed the songs in that direction. He also pushed away from the allegorical lyrics (mainly Tony's lyric writing) toward something that connects immediately to emotions. He still (apparently) gives Tony sh*t for the "Sheets of double glazing," lyric in Domino. (He complains about it directly in the Rain or Shine video, and he also brings it up during commentary for one of the concert DVDs--the We Can't Dance one, I think). Basically, everyone changed their musical styles between about '80 and '82. Not just Tony, Mike and Phil, but Peter too. It was more the times that changed (ruined, if you want to look at it that way) Genesis, not really any one member. Oh, and if you can't tell, they're all being sarcastic about Who Dunnit. They know that everyone hated it. But for them, it's a fun change of pace, so they like it. It isn't unusual for an artist to like something that everyone hates because what a performer likes about a performance is different from what the listener likes about it.
I'll agree they were completely in on it, but personally I blame the times. Peter had a string of pop hits too and even Steve had a pop hit with GTR. It's a wonder that something as progressive as the Duke Suite even got made in '80, or something as long and intricate as Domino in '86 (not that it compares with something like Cinema Show, but still, it's far from a 3-minute, four-chord love song). But sure, Tony's solo work after A Curious Feeling is mostly pop (with the occasional prog-like track such as Island in the Darkness), and Mike and the Mechanics fully embraced pop. So sure, Mike and Tony went right along with Phil, probably pushing him as much as he pushed them. But personally, I admire their ability to change with the times. There are plenty of groups who died because they couldn't.
Thanks for addressing "Who Dunnit," which you've explained correctly. When I heard the narrator say that my first reaction was, "Wait, no." Tony and Phil knew they were creating something odd and they liked the weirdness of it -- that's really all it was. Even when Phil says it's a "punk tune" he's saying that tongue-in-cheek. Somewhere in one of those 2007-era bonus interview videos, Mike sums up the whole change to a more poppy sound as just a desire to keep moving and changing. It's obviously totally ine if you prefer the more classic, 1970's sound. But starting in the eighties the band wanted to change and become more mainstream. And, of course, Peter did the same thing with "Big Time," "Sledgehammer," "In Your Eyes," et al. Whether it was adding horns to some of the songs ("Paperlate," "No Reply At All,") or singing love songs that actually said "I love you," these changes weren't forced on Mike and Tony by Phil. From Abacab onward they made the kind of albums they collectively wanted. I'm not crazy about all of it, but I think pinning it all on Phil goes against what the band members (and Peter) have said repeatedly.
phil collins is a superb muscian. A thoroughly decent man & extremely polite during all the unecessary Crap he's had to endure. well done phil. carry on regardless 👏👏👏
there is a progrock-band called genesis, and there is a poprock-band called genesis. both are great, the progrock-band being the more influential one. phil collins is part of both.
Where do you get arrogant from? Do you think he was forcing his way in front of us? The guy loves to play music, sing, drum whichever. He get's offers and he says yes. That makes him arrogant? Such an odd thing thing that old Genesis gets placed in the stratosphere, worshiped, idolized and Phil was there helping make it happen yet now there is this willingness to crap all over the exact same guy later after Peter bailed on the band. I don't like the song Sussudio, -so what! Is there some kinda deal that if a band dares put out a song that doesn't agree with me I get to crucify him -now that is arrogance!
What makes him arrogant? Just watch any of his interviews from the 80s/90s, or even the "Invisible touch" video: he just oozes with the self-importance of a CEO who has to deal with the plebs.
Ma/ Prz/ You see arrogance, I see exasperance (ok that's probably not a word). None of these guys are really interview types. I see Phil exasperated that this soap opera stuff is continually thrust upon the Genesis storyline and he has to continually answer to it. They made incredible music that changed over time and they never never mailed it in. Even the "shit" that one might hate was top quality shit. I just hear a guy who is so sick and tired of being labelled the villain for simply making music.
I think that the Phil Collins issue is best summed up in the infamous South Park bit on him: in less than 30seconds they point out the low quality of his pop output as well as his pretentious attitude ("I'd like to sing the complex and amazing song that won me the Oscar, pause, thanks").
I love what Phil did, I can honestly tell you it wasnt until Collins took over I never would of heard of Genesis, but he goes by Genesis n Phil Collins and sometimes like No Son of Mine" is by Genesis But ! my first favorite songs is " I Missed Again" by Phil Collins n then " Two Hearts" n " In the Air Tonight " was my boyfriend's favorite n Phil Collins is what we had in common n got married in 2 months time. N then I just loved what Phil could do in a short time with " You Cant Hurry Love" N " No Reply At All n his original videos to these 4 songs is when I became a fan fast . In 81 to 83 It was a very good time in my life.❤🙏✌I was 24 n my daughter remembers Phil Collins at 7 yrs old. N history was on it's way. Peter Gabriel I was never a fan of his style with Genesis n some ppl love him. But I didnt listen to much music in 70s bc of the hard rock n heavy metal so I listen to mostly to R n B music then during my teen yrs..❤ I liked Mike Rutherford n the Mechanics very much..but i thought Peter Gabriel was not entertaining enough for me. I could watch Kenny Loggins n be entertained more or George Benson had more talent to me. But if I upset anyone , i know what's good, my father was musician n a singer of country music and I didnt listen to country but I know my dad was good but he had problems with alcohol related issues but still sang in public n made his way enough to play in restaurants n nightclubs for all his life . Thanks Phil Collins for the years of music I know you paid highly. 😕 but your fans love you very much n respect you very much. You did it your way..The best.😎
Very interesting, now I'm gonna have to listen to Genesis lol! I was watching some of your old vids and in one you mentioned something about a podcast? Where could I find it?
If Phil Collins was only famous for being in Genesis, he wouldn't get all the shit. I just wish Phil would ignore the criticism. I personally think that he gave Genesis the confidence that band needed.
Here are some facts. When Steve Hackett left the band (after Wind And Wuthering), the sound began to change. The music was less complex. Hackett was the key ingredient in this early more progressive sound. He was the glue that kept them together.
It's true that Phil Collin's himself didn't turn Genesis into a pop band. "Your Own Special Way", "Follow You, Follow Me", "Ripples" and "Turn It On Again", who wrote those?? Mike Rutherford, that's who. And Tony Banks, he wrote "A Trick of the Tail" and "Many Too Many". During this time when Genesis were transitioning into a radio friendly band, Phil Collins wrote very little of that. "Misunderstanding", that's about it.
"Your Own Special Way" : Rutherford. "Follow You, Follow Me" : Rutherford/Banks/Collins. "Ripples" : Rutherford/Banks. "Turn It On Again" : Rutherford/Banks/Collins. "A Trick of the Tail" & "Many Too Many" : Banks "Misunderstanding" : Phil Collins, but also "Please don't ask". So you made 4 mistakes in 7 songs. Please check your facts...
Somewhere in those re-release interviews there's a clip of Peter saying that the accusation that Phil wanted to push him out was bullshit, he loved being a drummer more than anything else.
Being in a band is like marriage. Eventually there are going to be rough spots. You either make it through them or you don't. Sometimes there just aren't any options for compromise. How stupid is it that we sit here and blame any one person for the breakup.
A great point made through a great video. Well said, 'Downfall Network'. Even the so-called 'pop' albums by Genesis still had plenty of prog-ish stuff on them.
Well said. Great band who more than just about any 70's band I can think of made the most organic and natural transition to the 80's era. Yes had to change their sound entirely to transition to the 80's. Many 70's bands sounded super contrived in their attempts to transition. With Genesis there's a smooth, natural transition and the vibe of that core of Phil, Mike and Tony is clear whether you listen to Cinema Show and Apocalypse in 9/8, or Second Home By The Sea and Abacab.
So they sold out to the business better than most huh? Strange concept, unless you are interested in business over music. Sounds more like prostitution to me.
Music is business. I really don't get the whole "they sold out" thing as some sort of insult. They wrote great songs that were vastly popular. They had a huge video hit with Mama. That song is in no way some sort of bubble gum pop. It's dark, intense and kind of out. They also wrote some sappy ballads. Whatever. I don't need a band to be just one thing and I don't find music valid only when it's not largely popular. They were a great band.
Rebel Alien Just one small point...music is not business. I know tons of very talented musicians that do not make a cent. I quit for similar reasons. I make love and play guitar with skill and class. I do neither for money. Your favs may be my bubble gum. As for the band... I'd say the 'business' had its effect on Genesis, but 'ruined' is a value judgment that should not apply. I like most, but not all of their stuff...and never bought an album, but saw them at the Roxy from about 3 feet away! Got to talk to them, no light show or smoke, just the band raw and very loud! Too bad Steve had just split...great none the less. From "don't those guys sing that lamb song?" and "get in line stupid, you be glad you did" to the last note - I got a Genesis education real fast. 2 Drum sets took 80% of the stage!
I'm so glad that you point out that phil didn't ruin the band cos he didn't and those interviews which are easily findable on youtube prove it all. I would just defend Tony Banks here cos I think that his critics about some of the old songs have more to do with the fact that he seems to be hard to satisfy cos in other interviews of the same series, he says that from the three remaining members after Hackett left, he was the one who prefere the longer weirder stuff they were creating, and the less direct writter of those three, which can easily be seen in songs credited to him (for instance : One for the Vine, Robbery Assault and Battery, and on the more pop album abacab, the song Me and SarahJane)
well said that man agree whole heartedly with what you say and I can't get my head round why people would say that about phil ! clueless idiots all of them that think it !! so thank you for sticking up for Phil !!
a lot of fans just find the music to not be at the same level of creativity with the albums after Peter left. Like pretty much all the progressive rock bands of that era, Genesis just ended up changing their approach both from a songwriting and production standpoint. But I do agree with the point you bring up about Rutherford and Banks who still wrote most of the music. While I appreciate a lot of his stuff, Tony Banks can come across a lot worse in many of those interviews and documentaries. The most recent one "Together and Apart"..I honestly ended up looking at Tony Banks a lot worse than I had previously. Even down to the content, while it was fine to show some of his solo work, there was next to nothing about Steve Hackett rather prolific solo career. Why? I can't help but wonder if Tony and Mike may have had something to do with that.
How people have time to invest in such nonsense amazes me. Love the music and appreciate how prolific Genesis has been. Mr Collins continues to inspire, drummers, singers and songwriters to this day.
Thanks for making this. While I strongly dislike the Collins era music itself, it was kind of groundbreaking and still embodied the spirit of prog, so I can't help but respect it.
I never even heard Phil taking shit until recently. Guess why. Because I listen to their music not to what random fucks say about their music. Thanks for this vid, man. You're a gentleman and a scholar.
In my humble opinion, it would be impossible making better of that incredible era (from Trespass to The Lamb) it's a quite a miracle they even be able to release another very good (but nothing compares the previous ones of course) album like "Trick of the tail". Probably, the decay of quality would have been even with Peter in, especially if Tony and Mike were so determined to change the sound of the band and from a commercial point of view they had seen right. ..
People too often assume that the singer of the band is the actual leader of the band. Genesis had to first face this problem when Peter left the band, and the music media thought it would be the end of Genesis.
My 3 favourite albums of theirs were Trick of the tail, Wind & wuthering and then there were 3 .. the first 2 i believed for the longest time were Peter singing lol And they were the most stadium keyboard jammy jam prog there is!
Sure you didn't listen to "And then there were three"... even to "Wind & wuthering", for which it seems Hackett was less involved, but yet a brilliant album.
IMHO the biggest impact on Genesis's original sound and songwriting happened when Steve Hackett left the band. The crucial musical element of the original Genesis sound lies in the incredible interplay between Steve and Tony. That's what made the musical aspect of Genesis instantly recognizable. Tony's incredible compositions wouldn't be the same without Steve's magical input. That fact seems to piss Tony off.
Far from "getting shit" for what Genesis did I think Tony Banks and Mike Rutherford pretty much ARE Genesis. The two guys who remained from start to finish. Blame it all on them, for good or ill, as you see it. At first Peter was the focus, then Phil, but Tony and Mike ran the show.
I want to remind people that it's OK to call bands and their music shit, criticize them, and tell them to end the band. The point of this video is that Phil receives backlash for changing the sound of Genesis to a more pop direction, and I prove here that he never controlled the band. If we are going to be honest with ourselves, if Peter was still in the band, wouldn't he have wanted to go in a pop direction? Wouldnt he make the band go this direction with him? wouldn't he control the band? wouldn't he do everything that Phil gets shit on for when in reality Phil did none of that? Thank you guys for making this video popular and hopefully this will continue to fix the stigma that Phil ruined Genesis.
Phil Collins = admirable drum chops, but zero cool and deplorable politics. Like your dad dancing at a wedding with a rolled up copy of the Daily Mail in his back pocket, he might keep time but you wish he wouldn't bother.
"If Peter was still in the band,wouldn't he have wanted to go in a pop direction?".....No,I honestly don't think he would.The majority of Peter's solo music (with the ONE exception being the 'SO' album ) was never as pop oriented as Phil's.Peter was always more adventurous and experimental in his approach to music.The very next thing he put out after 'SO' was 'Passion',the experimental soundtrack to the film 'The Last Temptation of Christ'.It says a lot about the kind of artist Peter is for him to release his most daringly non commercial and experimental work ever following right after the most pop oriented and best selling album of his career.He didn't try to make 'SO' part2. I remember reading an interview where the interviewer said something to him like "you seemed to retreat from the limelight after the 'SO' album and didn't capatalize on your fame." to which Peter responded "Yeah,I was a popstar for a bit." "Fame is a nice place to visit, but not a nice place to live.".....I respect and admire that.
TRANZEURO Pete seemed more interested in making videos once he went solo.
Because he knew videos sold music
Nice compilation, but don't start from the premise that Genesis was ever "ruined". They changed as a group in how they worked together and each member changed in the way they approached songwriting. If stuff didn't appeal to a person then tastes obviously diverged. Just to back you up a bit though, anyone talking about going for "simple pop" when they started having hits, Turn It On Again is in 13/8 as Peter discovered when he asked to play drums on it at Six Of The Best, thinking it was in 4/4. Ooh, that Phil Collins eh? So sneaky with his rhythmic time signatures :-)
You moron
Poor Phil, takes so much crap in the media. The truth is he's a temendous talent, a class act and a hell of a nice guy. So nice to see this support for one of my favorite artists!
thank you so much for watching
Even Peter Gabriel has acknowledged Phil was as good or better than he ever was in Genesis.
@@maximusmax4557 Yes. He has said Phil is quite simply a better singer than him, which is true. Phil has a much greater range than Peter, even though they have a similar cadence.
@aurassparsastheretard542 LOL If they were booing that was their own fault if you don't like Phil Collins why go to the show
@Auras Sparsas The Retard I heard about the crowd booing. They were upset with the different type of album/music the band sprung on them. The "old" original Genesis fans loved the drama and costume Peter brought to the stage. While I loved the complicated music, Peter brought more acting, complicated secret meaning" stories/lyrics sound more suited for theater/live concerts than radio.
While Phil, TONY AND MIKE continued together to write songs as A TEAM, they naturally progressed, as most bands do, with "the times, they are a changing" and morphed into popular pop.
Genesis fans should just be glad Phil didn't "LEAD/FORCE" Genesis into disco like the BeeGees (and THEY didnt do too bad for themselves, either!!👍🥰😉)!!!🤣😂🤣
Anybody else who wants to question Phil's credibility, check out his work with Brand X. You will NEVER ever doubt his prog rock prowess again.
JusCuz410 hey watch out, you may have exposed a part of Collins not many know- Brand X. this mix of musicians will sho another side of Collins not many hear- get you some
Anybody who hasn't heard of Brand X doesn't have any right to question Phil's credibility.
Exactly!
Jez I AM yep, I fuckin hate Phil haters
Unorthodox Behaviour is one of my favourite albums. Phil Collins is one of the real greats on drums, in my opinion.
Without Phil Collins, Gabriel's Genesis ("the old Genesis") would never have got as much attention.
Collins brought Genesis to a huge audience. And to MTV, on which a rockumentary made me discover Gabriel's Genesis.
They are all great musicians, but it was Phil who kept them all together musically. His drumming made the band great.
Phil Collins is one of the most incredible drummers ever to walk the face of the Earth
Once Peter Gabriel left, decision rights where taken by a one man committee. i.e. Tony Banks, with Mike Rutherford occasionally in attendance. this is the main reason Steve Hackett left, he was writing a large amount of material that was not getting on the Genesis record.
To say Phil Collins ruined Genesis is utterly ridiculous, when he joined the band, everything lifted, they could easily have folded without him. in later years some of their more contemporary / pop influenced songs where written by Banks or Rutherford.. Turn it on Again came from a Mike Rutherford riff, Follow you Follow me - Mike. Hold on My Heart - Tony. Land of Confusion - Mike. although Phil contributed more material in later years, Banks and Rutherford where always the writing core of the band.
Phil was head writer for Driving The Last Spike, one of the better and more prog sounding tunes from We Can't Dance.
Yes people again we forget that phil collins saved genesis not peter.
I'm a big Genesis fan from Trespass to We Can't Dance (and I'm a proghead as well. 80's Genesis is still proggy if you really listen!). I'm not too familiar with Phil Collins solo stuff beyond Face Value, but I am very pro Phil. He'll always be one of my favourite drummers. He's a very talented, cool chap who I'd like to have a beer with one day.
Brad Bridges I give anything to see Phil Collins and or genesis live. I'm 13 years old and never had the chance to see them live.
You should make that a root beer...
Kabrowiskibby I believe your chance is coming soon!
We can't dance was actually really proggy if you listen. Driving the Last Spike and Fading Lights, prime examples.
@@NGOTB .. those tracks are good, but pretty lame compared to the likes of 'One For The Vine' and 'The Return of the Giant Hogweed '
Lots of rumors and dilemma got answered with this video, thank you. Phil and Peter will both always remain living legends and also long after they're both gone.
thanks for watching
Listen to trick of the tail and wind and Wuthering- two of the best Prog albums of all time WITH PHIL COLLINS ON VOCALS
Good albums, Phil wrote very little music on either of them and hardly any lyrics. He played fantastic drums and sang quite well, he still wasn't he singer that he became later.
Thank you , thank you , thank you. Finally, a man after my own heart. I'm up to here with those "fans" who slag off the best bloody drummer ever .
that he was! the drummer who had a hell of a voice! he still does!
Yes indeed Ali.
... no, that title belongs to one Danny Seraphine.
@@odetteswann7694 ?
@@halcyon289 Check out early Chicago! They're every bit as different from the 1980's outfit as Genesis were from their later incarnation!
I don't think anyone ruined the band, Duke was an incredible album, Abacab was awesome, Genesis was awesome, Invisible Touch was a pop album, but if it was anybody else playing most of those songs, they'd be highly renowned bangers, even We Can't Dance had some good tunes. I prefer every album from Nursery Crymes - Duke, but I could easily listen to most of their catalogue with a smile on my face. I also wouldn't diss Tony Banks, that guy is probably one of the best composers in the 20th century. Rutherford is an innovative musician as well, but thank you for clearing Phil's name, he's a world treasure and a music God and should be thought of as nothing less
Abacab was really bad. Invisible touch is amazing and with a huge flow of energy coming up
@@giorgiotronconi4136 gna gna gna !
"Thanks for clearing Phil's name." What a pleb.
Absolutely! I totally agree and am proud to be one of Phil Collins biggest fans!
The truth is that without 'Phil' being in the band at the time 'Peter' left, 'Genesis' would have been ruined, Phil actually saved the band with his talent! Peter's solo stuff is awesome and Genesis' stuff is awesome after Peter's exit. Also 'Phil's' solo stuff is awesome. Phil is one of this countries most talented musicians ever!
If you're a REAL rock fan then you get 3 for 1, hell, down the road, you even get 'Mike & The Mechanics' thrown in. What more could you want!? Just enjoy rocking out to all their stuff. It's the music they all make that ultimately counts.
And did not even mention that when Pete left, Phil wanted them to be an instrumental band. He really did not want to be the singer.
This is all so unfair. And it has followed him throughout his hole carreer. Poor, Phil.
He also suggested to the band to play Supper's Ready during the 80's but Tony Banks and Mike Rutherford refused to do that! Phil deserves respect! :(
"Whole career."
Dancing with the Moonlight knight rocks my friggin world.
Phil's groove is extraordinary. I love his drumming.
A succinct, well edited and passionate video. This will be shared. Thanks for making this. Love it!
thank you, stick around and subscribe because at the end of the week i will upload my genesis band review restrospective
Done :)
for me it was always about the music....I enjoyed all of it from Genesis to both Phil and Pete's solo careers. I've always been thankful they shared it all with me. I was a great time to grow up and grow old together. And I can't wait to see Phil and his boy play!
I only have one thing to say... *You got it spot on!*
Nobody ruined Genesis. I WILL say Invisible Touch and We Can't Dance are my least favorite albums, but people grow and change. NOTHING stays the same. But MUCH AGREED what this video says. Look at Calling All stations.......... It didn't Go back to the Lamb Era when Phil left.
Phil Collins was also quoted as saying that when he sings with Genesis, he's "playing a roll" which is different than when he sings his solo stuff he's "more himself." Great video!
Thank you for explaining what I have been saying for years....Phil did NOT ruin Genesis!!! I've always felt that IF Peter had stayed in the band, it would never have gotten to new heights as they did reach in the 80s. Over 500K fans at the last show in Rome sure looked happy and enjoying the show!!!
yes
💙Absolutely!! lol And Phil did NOT ruin Genesis!! While Peter was clearly "the STAR🌟" of the show with his drama/costumes/acting, the rest of the band was just background, unless you were grooving on the music from their album.🥰
After Peter left, the original band members Tony and Mike would have NEVER "allowed" Phil to takeover/FORCE the band to go in a new more modern/popular direction, but like I say, "the times, they are a changing", and I thank God for Phil!🙏👏🥰
I loved Gabriel with Genesis but I preferred overall Collins with Genesis, and thank god they got him in on vocals, could have missed some of the best music ever written if they split after Pete left! They’re music legacy with both vocalists is massive ! The masters of progressive rock and genius songwriters. Tears of love & joy and goose pimples arise whenever I hear their Music, Just the best.
without the popularity of Phil Collins in the 80s, and the fact that the band was able to continue with his voice on "Trick of the tail", I (we) would never hear about Genesis (as a kid in the 80s), and perhaps this band would have been forgotten since the departure of Gabriel in 75 (!)
They had some great albums after Peter! Phil's drumming in the 70s was amazing
i'm am a big genesis fan and you know what i hate when they say "that was phil collins and genesis" it's just genesis not phil collins and genesis just genesis
great profile pic!
***** you like the floyd
giggabyt78 fuck yeah!
***** i got to see roger on the wall tour it was the best show i have ever seen \m/
giggabyt78 I could imagine, I went to see him back in 99 and 2000 when he was touring In the Flesh.
Phil Collins saved Genesis.
Jim, para de gritar
did you even watch the ENTIRE VIDEO you dolt???
No, he MADE Genesis!
@@michaelbrown5838 He made Genesis, alright....into a steaming pile of shit.
Cheap and Easy everyone has their opinions.
What happened to your full Genesis video?
When Steve Hackett was still with the band in the mid to late 70s, the four of them were at odds which direction the music should go and this was clear during the recording on The Wind and Wurthering. Tony wanted to continue with progressive music they have been doing, Mike wanted to explore doing some shorter songs, Steve wanted to contribute more in the writing of the songs with more guitar solos, and Phil was still unsure of his abilities as a song writer but, was become more confident in singing. After the Seconds Out Tour in 1977, Steve left because he felt he was being phased out and he already had a solo album under his belt. With the changing music scene Phil, Mike, and Tony realized they would have make an effort to make some radio friendly songs or they would probably be doomed. Having their first big hit Follow You Follow Me in 1978 helped open the door to a bigger fan base, and they would continue to write and perform music for the new fans. Like the guy in this video said Genesis has always been Tony and Mike's band. To say that Phil ruined Genesis is absurd because one of many reasons Peter left was because of the fights he and Tony had over the direction of the music. If Tony had strong objections to what they were doing 1978 or later, it would have probably been the end of the band.
I've never known why people have so completely misunderstood both Phil Collins and Genesis.
Both just happen to be vehicles for a group of songwriters and musicians to perform their songs.
And each album progresses and changes from what came before in a natural way.
There was no evil plan to become superstars. They just did what they did, and changed their sound along
the way, like all great bands do.
It just so happened that in 1986, they all of a sudden had THE RIGHT SOUND for those times.
And that's something you can never plan.
Had Invisible Touch come out prior to the birth of MTV, it probably wouldn't have done any better than
their other albums. But the timing was just right. And that's not their fault. They just wrote great songs.
I think people just thought there was too much Genesis and Phil Collins at the time.
I mean, Phil especially pretty much dominated the 80's.
But how can you have too much of a good thing? Is the reason for all the bullshit rumours and lies
simply jealousy? Were they too succesful?
I personally don't care how famous artists become or how much they change over the years.
All that matters is if they keep creating music of quality.
If a band goes from playing punk to polka, who cares?
People are so damn possessive about their favourite bands and too afraid of change.
In music, anything goes. It's just too bad that people focus more on fame than the work these days.
It didn't just happen in 1986. It was a gradual thing. They had a minor hit with Follow You Follow Me from their 1978 album And Then There Were Three. And when the Duke album came out in 1980, they had their first big hit with Misunderstanding. That was their real breakthrough. The songs from the Abacab album, Abacab, No Reply At All, Man on the Corner, etc. had lots of radio play. And more hits from the self-titled Genesis album in 1983, like Mama, That's All, Illegal Alien, and Taking It All Too Hard.
So they had already hit the big time by the time of the Invisible Touch album.
Thanks for this! Not to keen on Phil's solo career, but his contribution to Genesis was huge, crucial and killer! The man was a beast on the drum kit, highly original and influential - and is a fantastic singer. Love Phil!
Oh I think a Phil Collins in one way, his personal musical abilities. Nothing else matters, nothing else. Get over it everybody. Thank you for all the great music over the years Phil!
It's really quite simple. Collin's solo success enabled him to return to the Genesis "collective" (by then, a trio) with a greatly strengthened hand and far more musical leverage than he'd enjoyed (or likely even wanted) hitherto. There was now a creative space there for him to expand into "within" the band. Just as Gabriel's costumes and theatrics had garnered publicity for the band, Collin's newfound solo success did exactly the same thing and gave the band a huge publicity injection, possibly even keeping them moderately relevant at a time when other bands were fast losing their public appeal. Collin's influence over the band's output soon began to show. This was entirely understandable. Collins had proven that he could "single-handedly" pave a way towards mass audience appreciation, so "serious" writers Banks and Rutherford would have been mugs not to want some of that magical "Collins" fairy dust to positively influence some of the band's output. This is where the controversy arises however.
A "positive" influence for the Genesis trio would be measured in commercial penetration. For long-standing Genesis fans however, Collin's influence was now seen as a "negative" because it would pull the band further away from it's identity as a thematically-progressive musical unit. So, in many ways yes...Collins DID ruin Genesis, but the Genesis residual... (Tony & Mike) both conscientiously signed up for whatever "ruination" Collins was going to bring and are both strongly on public record nailing their colours to the mast in terms of welcoming (and defending) the Collins influence. If musical integrity had been a big issue for the pair...they had ample opportunity to distance themselves from Collins but they obviously chose not to do this. Instead...they opted to ride the wave of popularity WITH Collins and fully embrace a more commercial approach to their output.
SUMMARY: Collins altered "Genesis" as a musical brand and the remaining two band members actively colluded with him in this endeavour.
DEFENCE / MITIGATION: Phil, Tony and Mike will claim that they merely "evolved" as musicians. The revenue spike from "Follow You, Follow Me" (1978) combined with Phil's recent solo success in the singles market, (1981) likely had a strong influence on the band's decision to start ploughing a more commercial furrow for themselves.
COMMENT: The "Genesis" of old....had more or less been dismantled by this time anyway. The loss of Peter and the exodus of Steve left a trio of musicians who had to decide how best to maintain and evolve the established brand that was "Genesis." This was an experienced group of men who already had "half a foot in the door" when it came to the public's awareness of them. They merely decided to push and elbow their way right through that door, and used all their acquired advantages in order to do this. Collins loaned the band some of the huge public focus he'd acquired for himself, and in return for this...Tony and Mike welcomed Phil into their "writer's club" and happily signed off on the "Collin-isation" of the Genesis brand..(pun intended)
It might be argued that it was simply a case of "Evolve or die" for the Genesis brand at this time.
But did that evolution really have to involve the shockingly acute dilution of musical integrity so many have railed against?
IMHO...the dilution was only ever going to be as good (or bad) as the person who spear-headed it, and that was Collins.
With the passage of time, I'm inclined to think that things might have been a whole lot worse and that Collins did actually exert great restraint on himself and his influence over his fellow band members. He continued to let the band breathe its own air (by and large) and this allowed some truly great work to be added to the latter part of their canon.
Naturally opinions may vary!!
Bravo!!👏👏👏👏👏 Well said!!👍
A brilliant assessment, and probably the best comment on here (including those by the video makers). I would just like to add, though, that it's a crying shame they went that way, because more albums in the style of '..And Then There Were Three..' would have given them the hits, while still allowing them the chance to occasionally stretch out.
... I might also add that in my opinion their output deteriorated in quality once they chose group improvisation over individual song-writing...
@@odetteswann7694 Firstly, thank you very much for your warm comments re: the appraisal I wrote some two years ago now!! I've just paused for thought in connection with your comment here about group improv versus individual compositions. I genuinely think that the studio improv method of composition, which basically involved jamming or "riffing" certain songs into existence.....did actually play to their strengths as musicians and was probably the most egalitarian (and enjoyable) way for them to express themselves. Especially since each department now had its own unchallenged overseer (Drums, guitars, keyboards)
Added to this were the technological strides which were happening in this time period, especially things like drum machines and sampling technology, which the trio were now ideally placed to both "afford" and experiment with, right at a time when they also acquired "The Farm" which would also enable them to mess with all that stuff without the scheduling constraints usually associated with commercial studio hire.
So yes, I think some very strong material came out of this period, but as time wore on, I think there were definitely diminishing returns with this approach, and as you state, each member's individual songwriting (for Genesis) was never quite as good as it had been on earlier albums.
Perhaps they were now all minded to use their own solo-careers as an outlet for their own individual compositions, which meant that these compositions would never be brought in to the studio to get the "Genesis" treatment, and as a result of this....the cupboard was always a bit "bare" when compared to albums from earlier times?
Personally, I'm just grateful that my own life (and youth) overlapped the very best of their output, and I'm now inclined to just enjoy their full body of work....whilst judiciously tossing aside one or two songs which (I believe) fell below their otherwise high standards.
Again.....many thanks for your comment.
Phil took Genesis to a higher level than Peter ever could have. Peter is a much better solo act, where he can construct the reality associated with each of his songs.
A higher commercial level, maybe...
Anyone who has listened to Genesis knows Phil never took over the band. Tony and Mike's songwriting and playing is still prominent on every album through We Can't Dance and never took a back seat to Phil. If you want to hear what it sounds like when one member takes over a band, that would be Pink Floyd The Final Cut (it's actually a good record, just didn't seem like a Pink Floyd record).
Great video and commentary!
Stephan Nigohosian thank you
The Boss in Genesis always had a name and that name is Mr. Tony Banks. Even in Gabriel's times Tony was the man with the last word on things. In fact Peter himself told the story about The Lamb and asking permission to Tony about doing that whole thing. And Tony was the only man in the band with the authority of tellling in Peter's face in front of the cameras and the other members of the band all together: "...The Lamb wasn't a great álbum and it was my worst period on the band...". The only difference between Peter and Phil is that Peter was always Tony's friend and will always be. So from time to time Peter did things without telling anyone tooking advantage of his friendship with Tony like cutomes on stage. Well that's never the case with Phil Collins. In the Abacab sessions Phil had the idea of incorporating horns on the "No Reply At All" song. But it wasn't until Tony Banks heard the final version that the horns was accepted on that track. It didn't matter Phil Collins was already a music star at that time with his Face Value album. The final word about the horns on that song was from Tony Banks. So the heart and the soul of Genesis not only in Gabriel's but in Collins' times has a name: Tony Banks.
Knowitall, you can not say anything without been there
You are right about Banks...His manager Tony Smith confirms it, that Banks was the one who musically directed the band...Even Collins in the latest interview for the Last Domino said, "Genesis is a democracy as long as we agree with Tony (Banks)"...Billy Preston said that John Lennon was the Boss Beatle...There is always someone in a ban with the stronger ideas and the forceful personality to steer the band in a successful direction, and that was Banks in Genesis, the indisputable leader
@@williamdsousa2953 Yes, he can, because it is factual, and just because you didn't know it, no need to get snippy about it
It's about time someone had the BALLS to stand up about this!
thank you, i will be uploading my genesis band review at the end of the week, stick around for that
5:16 Phil describes himself as a "very good drummer". Is he just being modest or does he not know that he is one of, if not the, greatest rock drummer ever?
All this Collins knocking shit goes over my head.
He's incredibly talented and if he gets under a few peoples skin who cares!
Phil Collins...one of the Very Best...Ever!
Phil got his fusion "fill" working with Brand X., He also was good friends with Bill Bruford who joined Genesis on their lates 70's tours. Phil played drums on Peter Gabriel's third solo album. They were and are good friends. If anything, Phil extended the life of Genesis by making them even more commercially viable. Up to and including And Then There Were Three, their biggest selling album was And Then There Were Three. I learned this after visiting the Charisma Records office in London. Yeah, they would know.
Totally agree with you about Mike and Tony being the ones who downplay the prog era the most. They were probably the most responsible for the conversion to pop
I hate haters! No, really i love all these musicians. They have given me out of the body experiences listening to their music. Gratitud is the less what people should feel for collins. And also for the rest of all other good musicians from around the world.
If you hate haters, you've become one yourself!
mama and misunderstanding are my fav songs
I really, really have to thank u for this, my friend. ..A Genesis freak since 73, ..of course broken hearted when Pete left... I confess, that after .."and then there were 3"..I am guilty of starting to blame Phil..your compilation of quotes shows me o was wrong, and now thanks to you, I have absolution ...thanks
Trick of the Tail may be even more prog than the Gabriel years. My favorite one either way
PHIL FOREVER!!!!...seems like it might just be that way too!! thanks for posting the TRUTH!!!!
Phil is the most musical drummer in rock. Hearing his work with Brand X should answer any questions. Parts of 'Dance on a Volcano' are about Phil moving into the light and feeling the pressure to get it right. I think Peter and Phil were best men at each of their weddings. Watch 'This is Your Life' with Collins (1988) and you will see Peter give a lovely cameo appearance praising the man. Another cameo from that program was Phil's good friend Robert Plant. It is hilarious. Total respect for Phil Collins. So lucky to have experienced his music.
Excellent! Genesis, both the early and later versions, is brilliant and innotative. Phil is an amazing singer, drummer, and composer. And the rest of the guys are gifted, too! So much for critical crap!!
The blaming of Mike and Tony is also misguided. When it comes to the criticism of the old songs, Tony likes the Genesis songs that he wrote and doesn't really like songs that were driven by Steve. If you listen to the interviews, that becomes a real trend (although he seems to like Blood on the Rooftops). Moonlit Knight was basically Steve and Peter, so Tony doesn't like it. Mike was the least interested in Genesis's fairy-tale-like songs. Neither are saying they hate all the prog-days songs. Quite the opposite, both of them love some of the old songs. Tony loves Stagnation and Mike has said that Supper's Ready is Genesis's greatest song of all time. (Yeah, duh, but if he really loved '80s Genesis so much, he might have chosen Land of Confusion.)
But it's the interviews for Calling All Stations that really tell you in what direction each member was pulling the songs, and Phil says it himself. Tony was always going for the weird diminished chords that might stay with you, but take several listenings to get into, Mike was always in the middle, and Phil was pushing things toward "hooks" (which he called "immediacy"). Phil, after learning how to write his own music learned well how to get a listener to like a piece of music immediately upon hearing it, and he said that he pushed the songs in that direction.
He also pushed away from the allegorical lyrics (mainly Tony's lyric writing) toward something that connects immediately to emotions. He still (apparently) gives Tony sh*t for the "Sheets of double glazing," lyric in Domino. (He complains about it directly in the Rain or Shine video, and he also brings it up during commentary for one of the concert DVDs--the We Can't Dance one, I think).
Basically, everyone changed their musical styles between about '80 and '82. Not just Tony, Mike and Phil, but Peter too. It was more the times that changed (ruined, if you want to look at it that way) Genesis, not really any one member.
Oh, and if you can't tell, they're all being sarcastic about Who Dunnit. They know that everyone hated it. But for them, it's a fun change of pace, so they like it. It isn't unusual for an artist to like something that everyone hates because what a performer likes about a performance is different from what the listener likes about it.
thanks for the info, I left out some of this. but Tony and Mike should take more blame for being the leaders and principle song writters
I'll agree they were completely in on it, but personally I blame the times. Peter had a string of pop hits too and even Steve had a pop hit with GTR. It's a wonder that something as progressive as the Duke Suite even got made in '80, or something as long and intricate as Domino in '86 (not that it compares with something like Cinema Show, but still, it's far from a 3-minute, four-chord love song).
But sure, Tony's solo work after A Curious Feeling is mostly pop (with the occasional prog-like track such as Island in the Darkness), and Mike and the Mechanics fully embraced pop.
So sure, Mike and Tony went right along with Phil, probably pushing him as much as he pushed them. But personally, I admire their ability to change with the times. There are plenty of groups who died because they couldn't.
Thanks for addressing "Who Dunnit," which you've explained correctly. When I heard the narrator say that my first reaction was, "Wait, no." Tony and Phil knew they were creating something odd and they liked the weirdness of it -- that's really all it was. Even when Phil says it's a "punk tune" he's saying that tongue-in-cheek.
Somewhere in one of those 2007-era bonus interview videos, Mike sums up the whole change to a more poppy sound as just a desire to keep moving and changing. It's obviously totally ine if you prefer the more classic, 1970's sound. But starting in the eighties the band wanted to change and become more mainstream. And, of course, Peter did the same thing with "Big Time," "Sledgehammer," "In Your Eyes," et al.
Whether it was adding horns to some of the songs ("Paperlate," "No Reply At All,") or singing love songs that actually said "I love you," these changes weren't forced on Mike and Tony by Phil. From Abacab onward they made the kind of albums they collectively wanted. I'm not crazy about all of it, but I think pinning it all on Phil goes against what the band members (and Peter) have said repeatedly.
Yes to the horns bit but I have to wonder if that held EWF back as an original group or just kept them in play a lot longer as an oldies band.
Bravo kaguya!! 👏👏👏Well said!!🥰
phil collins is a superb muscian. A thoroughly decent man & extremely polite during all the unecessary Crap he's had to endure. well done phil. carry on regardless 👏👏👏
there is a progrock-band called genesis, and there is a poprock-band called genesis. both are great, the progrock-band being the more influential one. phil collins is part of both.
He's also the one who did "Sususudio" and that horrible Tarzan song... He's also the arrogant wadhead who was EVERYWHERE throughout the 80s and 90s.
Where do you get arrogant from? Do you think he was forcing his way in front of us? The guy loves to play music, sing, drum whichever. He get's offers and he says yes. That makes him arrogant? Such an odd thing thing that old Genesis gets placed in the stratosphere, worshiped, idolized and Phil was there helping make it happen yet now there is this willingness to crap all over the exact same guy later after Peter bailed on the band. I don't like the song Sussudio, -so what! Is there some kinda deal that if a band dares put out a song that doesn't agree with me I get to crucify him -now that is arrogance!
What makes him arrogant? Just watch any of his interviews from the 80s/90s, or even the "Invisible touch" video: he just oozes with the self-importance of a CEO who has to deal with the plebs.
Ma/ Prz/ You see arrogance, I see exasperance (ok that's probably not a word). None of these guys are really interview types. I see Phil exasperated that this soap opera stuff is continually thrust upon the Genesis storyline and he has to continually answer to it. They made incredible music that changed over time and they never never mailed it in. Even the "shit" that one might hate was top quality shit. I just hear a guy who is so sick and tired of being labelled the villain for simply making music.
I think that the Phil Collins issue is best summed up in the infamous South Park bit on him: in less than 30seconds they point out the low quality of his pop output as well as his pretentious attitude ("I'd like to sing the complex and amazing song that won me the Oscar, pause, thanks").
I love what Phil did, I can honestly tell you it wasnt until Collins took over I never would of heard of Genesis, but he goes by Genesis n Phil Collins and sometimes like No Son of Mine" is by Genesis But ! my first favorite songs is " I Missed Again" by Phil Collins n then " Two Hearts" n " In the Air Tonight " was my boyfriend's favorite n Phil Collins is what we had in common n got married in 2 months time. N then I just loved what Phil could do in a short time with " You Cant Hurry Love" N " No Reply At All n his original videos to these 4 songs is when I became a fan fast . In 81 to 83 It was a very good time in my life.❤🙏✌I was 24 n my daughter remembers Phil Collins at 7 yrs old. N history was on it's way. Peter Gabriel I was never a fan of his style with Genesis n some ppl love him. But I didnt listen to much music in 70s bc of the hard rock n heavy metal so I listen to mostly to R n B music then during my teen yrs..❤ I liked Mike Rutherford n the Mechanics very much..but i thought Peter Gabriel was not entertaining enough for me. I could watch Kenny Loggins n be entertained more or George Benson had more talent to me. But if I upset anyone , i know what's good, my father was musician n a singer of country music and I didnt listen to country but I know my dad was good but he had problems with alcohol related issues but still sang in public n made his way enough to play in restaurants n nightclubs for all his life . Thanks Phil Collins for the years of music I know you paid highly. 😕 but your fans love you very much n respect you very much. You did it your way..The best.😎
I have always loved Phil Collins and never thought he ruined Genesis.
Oh, and while Genesis may have a loosely democratic hierarchy within the band, Tony's always been the boss.
Hey, let me know when your next live stream is man. I miss joining in on those.
ill let you know, we havent done a trial recently so maybe soon
I like so much Genesis and Phil Collins. Thank you!!! Is my music from young bis old.
Very interesting, now I'm gonna have to listen to Genesis lol! I was watching some of your old vids and in one you mentioned something about a podcast? Where could I find it?
I don't do it anymore, remind me again in a bit and I'll link it
+DownFall Thanks so much man! Keep up the great work too, looking forward to the new stuff haha
ua-cam.com/channels/4UI_GqFPHzYguyus0G7h_Q.html
Best band ever.
For me there was never a debate of Gabriel vs. Collins. I like them both the same and that has never changed.
If Phil Collins was only famous for being in Genesis, he wouldn't get all the shit. I just wish Phil would ignore the criticism. I personally think that he gave Genesis the confidence that band needed.
Great Video man
Here are some facts. When Steve Hackett left the band (after Wind And Wuthering), the sound began to change. The music was less complex. Hackett was the key ingredient in this early more progressive sound. He was the glue that kept them together.
Collins loves stuff even weirder than prog. Check out his albums with Brand X.
It's true that Phil Collin's himself didn't turn Genesis into a pop band. "Your Own Special Way", "Follow You, Follow Me", "Ripples" and "Turn It On Again", who wrote those?? Mike Rutherford, that's who. And Tony Banks, he wrote "A Trick of the Tail" and "Many Too Many". During this time when Genesis were transitioning into a radio friendly band, Phil Collins wrote very little of that. "Misunderstanding", that's about it.
"Your Own Special Way" : Rutherford. "Follow You, Follow Me" : Rutherford/Banks/Collins. "Ripples" : Rutherford/Banks. "Turn It On Again" : Rutherford/Banks/Collins.
"A Trick of the Tail" & "Many Too Many" : Banks
"Misunderstanding" : Phil Collins, but also "Please don't ask".
So you made 4 mistakes in 7 songs. Please check your facts...
Well said Downfall!!!! Well said. Stupid rumors!!!!
thank you baby
do you know what happened to the ministy of music ,aka alex
would be nice to think that Phil saw this vid
Somewhere in those re-release interviews there's a clip of Peter saying that the accusation that Phil wanted to push him out was bullshit, he loved being a drummer more than anything else.
Being in a band is like marriage. Eventually there are going to be rough spots. You either make it through them or you don't. Sometimes there just aren't any options for compromise. How stupid is it that we sit here and blame any one person for the breakup.
A great point made through a great video. Well said, 'Downfall Network'. Even the so-called 'pop' albums by Genesis still had plenty of prog-ish stuff on them.
I Love Phil and Genesis! I own all the rare recordings and all the albums and all the unreleased tracks.
Well said. Great band who more than just about any 70's band I can think of made the most organic and natural transition to the 80's era. Yes had to change their sound entirely to transition to the 80's. Many 70's bands sounded super contrived in their attempts to transition. With Genesis there's a smooth, natural transition and the vibe of that core of Phil, Mike and Tony is clear whether you listen to Cinema Show and Apocalypse in 9/8, or Second Home By The Sea and Abacab.
So they sold out to the business better than most huh? Strange concept, unless you are interested in business over music. Sounds more like prostitution to me.
Music is business. I really don't get the whole "they sold out" thing as some sort of insult.
They wrote great songs that were vastly popular. They had a huge video hit with Mama. That song is in no way some sort of bubble gum pop. It's dark, intense and kind of out. They also wrote some sappy ballads. Whatever. I don't need a band to be just one thing and I don't find music valid only when it's not largely popular. They were a great band.
Rebel Alien Just one small point...music is not business. I know tons of very talented musicians that do not make a cent. I quit for similar reasons. I make love and play guitar with skill and class. I do neither for money. Your favs may be my bubble gum. As for the band... I'd say the 'business' had its effect on Genesis, but 'ruined' is a value judgment that should not apply. I like most, but not all of their stuff...and never bought an album, but saw them at the Roxy from about 3 feet away! Got to talk to them, no light show or smoke, just the band raw and very loud! Too bad Steve had just split...great none the less. From "don't those guys sing that lamb song?" and "get in line stupid, you be glad you did" to the last note - I got a Genesis education real fast. 2 Drum sets took 80% of the stage!
I'm so glad that you point out that phil didn't ruin the band cos he didn't and those interviews which are easily findable on youtube prove it all. I would just defend Tony Banks here cos I think that his critics about some of the old songs have more to do with the fact that he seems to be hard to satisfy cos in other interviews of the same series, he says that from the three remaining members after Hackett left, he was the one who prefere the longer weirder stuff they were creating, and the less direct writter of those three, which can easily be seen in songs credited to him (for instance : One for the Vine, Robbery Assault and Battery, and on the more pop album abacab, the song Me and SarahJane)
People change I loved their stuff up to and including Duke.
Some people are just plain ignorant ....maybe because their lives are talentless....Genesis was born with Phil...period.
wonderful. thank you.
Anybody who knows the story doesn't listen to bullshit rumours.
agreed
Nice job, huge Genesis, and all individual members fans and big influence on us.
well said that man agree whole heartedly with what you say and I can't get my head round why people would say that about phil ! clueless idiots all of them that think it !! so thank you for sticking up for Phil !!
I'm not moving.
a lot of fans just find the music to not be at the same level of creativity with the albums after Peter left. Like pretty much all the progressive rock bands of that era, Genesis just ended up changing their approach both from a songwriting and production standpoint.
But I do agree with the point you bring up about Rutherford and Banks who still wrote most of the music. While I appreciate a lot of his stuff, Tony Banks can come across a lot worse in many of those interviews and documentaries. The most recent one "Together and Apart"..I honestly ended up looking at Tony Banks a lot worse than I had previously. Even down to the content, while it was fine to show some of his solo work, there was next to nothing about Steve Hackett rather prolific solo career. Why? I can't help but wonder if Tony and Mike may have had something to do with that.
thank you for the info good sir, I can't wait to upload the retrospective
How people have time to invest in such nonsense amazes me. Love the music and appreciate how prolific Genesis has been. Mr Collins continues to inspire, drummers, singers and songwriters to this day.
Thanks for Peter Gabriel' s contribution as well.
Desgaste cada uno crecio x su lado con diferentes estilos bien x Peter bien x Phil 👏👏👏👏👏
Thanks for making this. While I strongly dislike the Collins era music itself, it was kind of groundbreaking and still embodied the spirit of prog, so I can't help but respect it.
thanks for watching baby ;)
DownFall Sounds like something IHE would say.
thanks sugar tits :)
Phil Collins made Genesis what it is (in a good way) stop playing. Genesis was unheard of without him.
I never even heard Phil taking shit until recently. Guess why. Because I listen to their music not to what random fucks say about their music. Thanks for this vid, man. You're a gentleman and a scholar.
In my humble opinion, it would be impossible making better of that incredible era (from Trespass to The Lamb) it's a quite a miracle they even be able to release another very good (but nothing compares the previous ones of course) album like "Trick of the tail". Probably, the decay of quality would have been even with Peter in, especially if Tony and Mike were so determined to change the sound of the band and from a commercial point of view they had seen right. ..
There is no genesis into the 80’s unless Phil steps up during Trick of the Tail.
People too often assume that the singer of the band is the actual leader of the band. Genesis had to first face this problem when Peter left the band, and the music media thought it would be the end of Genesis.
Awesome vid!!!!!
My 3 favourite albums of theirs were Trick of the tail, Wind & wuthering and then there were 3 .. the first 2 i believed for the longest time were Peter singing lol And they were the most stadium keyboard jammy jam prog there is!
Great insights. thanks
thank you for watching, be sure to subscribe
I could care less who’s fault it was, fact is they blew once Hackett left!
Sure you didn't listen to "And then there were three"... even to "Wind & wuthering", for which it seems Hackett was less involved, but yet a brilliant album.
So, you're a Steve Hackett fan, and not a Genesis. Cool. Unsure of why you're HERE ON THIS PARTICULAR VIDEO, but whatever. Lol
The Invisible Touch album sounds more like Mike & the Mechanics than any Phil Collins album of that era.
Finally some criticism of Tony and Mike.
IMHO the biggest impact on Genesis's original sound and songwriting happened when Steve Hackett left the band. The crucial musical element of the original Genesis sound lies in the incredible interplay between Steve and Tony. That's what made the musical aspect of Genesis instantly recognizable. Tony's incredible compositions wouldn't be the same without Steve's magical input. That fact seems to piss Tony off.
Far from "getting shit" for what Genesis did I think Tony Banks and Mike Rutherford pretty much ARE Genesis. The two guys who remained from start to finish. Blame it all on them, for good or ill, as you see it. At first Peter was the focus, then Phil, but Tony and Mike ran the show.
phil is awesome