This program did remind me of why I appreciated John Walton as a professor. He presents makes you focus on the text and separates what you have been told it says from what is in there. He also sums things up to clear the waters that have been muddied by years of teachings that didn't all stick to the texts. He doesn't tell you what to believe and doesn't hesitate to tell you what we don't know. May he always stay honest to the text in that way! Thanks for posting this video.
Asherit What a laborious, fundamentally elementary dialogue, this bunch. I desired to hear Walton. I was about to exit until I came across the time stamp you posted. Much appreciated!
I was excited to hear from John Walton and was so disappointed. What happened? Do you ever feature your guests? Why did you invite him on? You certainly didn’t give him an opportunity to share. So sad….
Folks , I got a pile of mushroom compost for my garden. It was hot and smoking. When things decompose they release heat, hence I got a load of Gehenna.
Would you please do a whole video on how Christ was NOT forsaken by the Father? And how that is theology that is ignoring the fact that he was quoting Psalm 22. It is such a pervasive belief and I believe so passionately that it is not accurate. Thanks for the great content.
For some interesting ANE / OT connection to NT descriptions of hell (and Heaven), check out the Naked Bible Podcast, episode 89 (Book of Life), 90 (Lake of Fire), 92 (Stones of Fire). Also P and S, maybe consider having Dr. Mike Heiser on the Podcast sometime.
Whoa. So this is an old podcast. And I just found it. And I am so glad I did! I have had soooooo many questions about hell, and soooooo many discussions about our arrogance in assuming that we know much of anything about it! One question I have always had, regarding the separation of God issue, is that if God in present everywhere...meaning there is no place that He is not present... then He must be present in hell in some way, IF hell is a place. What I can make of that is that those in hell would not experience any of the goodness of God. But I have never been sure that hell actually is a place. I like the summation: Sin has consequences, God will hold us accountable and it's HIS business what happens! Thanks!
Someone needs to edit this video and post from 22 minutes in. Anyone searching this has to endure a talk fest that's only relevant on a live discussion not years later. I'm sure it will get more views just with the question to John Walton and his answers with discussion around.
I was actually hoping John would teach me something but I could not cut through all the banter. You’re not calling a baseball game so please allow some complete thoughts to filter through. Thank you.
yeah man. ten minutes into this and im like......this is what to think programming more tv news bullshit. John sitting there only person that should be heard. these other three....its like more then talk the more they should be quiet.
Thanks for a good discussion about hell (yes, you CAN have one!)! I totally agree with the general reformed view on hell, that it is eternal separation from God and all His goodness. Just to further elaborate on your point Phil, right at the end. You said those who go there 'won't like it'. I would also say that those who are in hell do NOT and CANNOT want to be anywhere else (the only other alternative is with God). Look at the parable of the rich man in hell (Luke 16: 19-31). He did not want to leave, only for his torment to be eased. As you mentioned, the reality will be that those eternally separated will lose all of their humanity, the image of God that He gave them. That is surely, by definition, eternal torment in hell.
The rich man was actually in the intermediate state, Hades. So it wasn't his eternal state, even if the story describes a true event or a parable based on reality.
So the only thing we can be sure remains as truth from both the OT and NT is that there is judgment for sin. How that is played out is less important than God's grace and mercy for those who believe in His only Son, Jesus Christ.
I find all the speak about Sheol, afterlife, hades, etc etc minimizes the enormity of the resurrection. The resurrections meaning is maximized if “the wages of sin is death”. Man is physical in nature, to dust we return. We have no hope outside of resurrection.
Dr. Walton says that idea of resurrection is first hinted at in Daniel 12. But what does he do with the point Jesus makes against the Sadducees in Mark 12?: "And regarding the dead rising, have you not read about the burning bush in the book of Moses, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” You are badly mistaken!" Jesus implies that evidence for the resurrection is found in this passage of the Torah. Was this exchange found in the burning bush account only considered evidence of resurrection in the time of Jesus? Can we not assume that it was evidence earlier, say, before the book of Daniel was penned?
Such a flippant attitude about such a serious topic. Too many people constantly interrupting with unrelated thoughts that get off topic. So, they tried to come to some conclusions about Hell and they were the following: "sin has consequences", "God will hold people responsible", and "God will judge every person's sin". They also said that hell was separation from God. Those are true, but there was no explanation about how to avoid hell, by trusting in Christ and in His death, burial and resurrection. There is absolute assurance in that. There is certainty in that. The lady spoke like you could not have certainty. But that is false. You can have certainty in salvation through repentance of sin and receiving Christ as Savior and Lord. The Good News Translation says in Hebrews 11:1 "To have faith is to be sure of the things we hope for, to be certain of the things we cannot see."
Started watching my first and it didn't take long to realize this is a waste of time ..hopefully the one guy's material being used in the prison is better ..
Yeah, it takes like 20 minutes to actually talk about the topic in the title. I understand a few minutes of introductions and stuff. But when it's less than an hour and 20 minutes are spent on a bunch of controversial and unrelated stuff, it's not an ideal setup.
Re Dante's Inferno, it's worth remembering that the Catholic Church burned as heretic's the great artist's of the day if they didn't except commissions. Protestant's could probably get some great art work done if they just enslaved the major talent of the day.
knowsmebyname "SHAPE CHARACTERS?" I AM NOT UPSET! CAPS ARE EASIER TO READ/TYPE FOR ME. Phil, sweetie MOST SCHOOLS "ARE" SHAPING/INFLUENCING KIDS TODAY! SDALY THEY WANT "SOCIALIST" PUPPETS. CHECK OUT ALL THE TEMPER TANTRUMS/PROTESTS AT ALL SCHOOLS! THEY DEVELOP FROM THE PRODDING OF ANTI-US ADULTS AND ATHEIST-SOCIALISTS. AS FOR THE GUNS, CHICAGO, MY BIRTHPLACE HAS BANNED THEM 20 YRS AGO OR LONGER. NOW THAT IS WHY THE NRA SAYS WHAT IT DOES. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
Rule out universalism? Depends on what kind. Jesus is THE way, and all will ultimately see Him as such and believe. That is in the Bible :) It may take some correction for them to get there, though.
God is ultimate goodness. He did not create man to ultimately be condemned to Dante’s hell. Jesus came so that ALL might have life-abundant life. There is life and post-life. Those who have not done what they should have in this his life will be “dealt with” after death. Judgment is not “forever punishment.” It exists to bring “bad people” around to accept God’s purpose to be ALL IN ALL!
Think, Luke 16 for how pre-NT understanding of the after life. After Jesus was crucified the righteous went to heaven while the unrighteous await the resurrection to the Great White Throne Judgement.
hey, please allow John speaks and explain! you three interrupted him so much!! it is so rude! I could not learn anything because you did not let John complete his explanation and you were so so messy, very bad in my point of view.
Well, I kinda understand it. People with dark humor Understand that it's awful, and use humor to cope with it. As bad as it sounds, it's really just a coping device. (*´ｪ｀*)
Your poorly informed anti gun comments are disappointing. You claim a "good guy," with a gun has little effect in a specific example but ignore it was lethal force that stopped lethal force.
Batman is quite presumptuous to claim he knows the motivation behind every individual member of the NRA. He dismisses with one fell swoop the Constitutional Rights motive with gun sales and the others merely blink. He insists that we MUST be politicalized. 12 minutes is all I needed to know how full of malarkey this show is. ~Steven of Montreal
It's interesting how he uses ancient Judaism to discard the hellish lake of fire, but not the heavenly New Jerusalem. So there is no hell but there's a heaven. Walton's poor use of the Hebrew scripture has left other Hebrew scholars shaking their heads. With this kind of hermeneutic, Walton would have us believe that the kingdom of heaven is literally a mustard seed. Even though Jesus used gehenna and many other things that the Jews were familiar with to explain the spiritual realities of the lake of fire and heaven. Hence the use of the Jewish parables in the tannattic period. Read some ancient Jewish material please before you get so confident.
For real?!? Catholic universities and Christian universities? What? News flash - Catholic universities ARE Christian universities. Perhaps you meant Catholic universities and Protestant universities. While you may differ with much Catholic theology, do you really feel that Catholics should not be considered under the Christian "umbrella?" Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong to say this.
This is how the protestant revolt has gone full circle. Before the deformation began by Luther the words Catholic and Christian were equivalent. When sects of Catholics (for they were ALL Catholics); began to re-define for themselves what 'christian' meant; they kept the name 'christian', but in time they became less and less so as they grew in number and more outlandish interpretations of what it meant to be christian. Now 500 years later and over 40,000 (and counting) groups claiming to be the Truth; they look upon on the original and unchanged Christianity in Catholicism, and based on their (often very estranged) interpretation of Christianity question whether Catholics are even Christian. This is akin to these same groups questioning whether or not Jesus or His Apostles were even Christian!!!!
39knights you should do your hw. the same source that makes that claim of the many protestant denominations includes the Roman catholicism in this group with hundreds of roman Catholic denominations. If you're going to rely on that information you also have to accept the many roman Catholic Denominations that they mention.
This program did remind me of why I appreciated John Walton as a professor. He presents makes you focus on the text and separates what you have been told it says from what is in there. He also sums things up to clear the waters that have been muddied by years of teachings that didn't all stick to the texts. He doesn't tell you what to believe and doesn't hesitate to tell you what we don't know. May he always stay honest to the text in that way! Thanks for posting this video.
😂 this episode made me feel like a Sunday school teacher in a room with smart kids that have ADD.
Skip to 22:00 for John Walton speaking on “Hell.” You’re welcome.
You're a saint. Thank you.
Asherit
What a laborious, fundamentally elementary dialogue, this bunch.
I desired to hear Walton. I was about to exit until I came across the time stamp you posted. Much appreciated!
I have been watching Dr. Waltons teaching as of late. This popped up. Difficult to watch with all the interruptions and battle for the mike
I was excited to hear from John Walton and was so disappointed. What happened? Do you ever feature your guests? Why did you invite him on? You certainly didn’t give him an opportunity to share. So sad….
Folks , I got a pile of mushroom compost for my garden. It was hot and smoking. When things decompose they release heat, hence I got a load of Gehenna.
Would you please do a whole video on how Christ was NOT forsaken by the Father? And how that is theology that is ignoring the fact that he was quoting Psalm 22. It is such a pervasive belief and I believe so passionately that it is not accurate. Thanks for the great content.
For some interesting ANE / OT connection to NT descriptions of hell (and Heaven), check out the Naked Bible Podcast, episode 89 (Book of Life), 90 (Lake of Fire), 92 (Stones of Fire).
Also P and S, maybe consider having Dr. Mike Heiser on the Podcast sometime.
Agreed these liberal discussion is so dated! What's not dated the Bible.
I think the closest thing in the Bible to that separation of God in my opinion is what Saul went through. His life was torment after God left him.
Whoa. So this is an old podcast. And I just found it. And I am so glad I did! I have had soooooo many questions about hell, and soooooo many discussions about our arrogance in assuming that we know much of anything about it! One question I have always had, regarding the separation of God issue, is that if God in present everywhere...meaning there is no place that He is not present... then He must be present in hell in some way, IF hell is a place. What I can make of that is that those in hell would not experience any of the goodness of God. But I have never been sure that hell actually is a place. I like the summation: Sin has consequences, God will hold us accountable and it's HIS business what happens! Thanks!
Book of Hyob talks about: "I will see my Redeemer in flesh'. And Hyob was Avraham'a cousin.
Is there a part 2 to this? I was hoping they would talk more about the use of hell in evangelism which I have questions about.
Someone needs to edit this video and post from 22 minutes in. Anyone searching this has to endure a talk fest that's only relevant on a live discussion not years later.
I'm sure it will get more views just with the question to John Walton and his answers with discussion around.
I love the Alexander the Grape slip up!
I was actually hoping John would teach me something but I could not cut through all the banter. You’re not calling a baseball game so please allow some complete thoughts to filter through. Thank you.
They get a real scholar on the show but cannot have a scholarly or even serious conversation. How sad.
yeah man. ten minutes into this and im like......this is what to think programming more tv news bullshit. John sitting there only person that should be heard. these other three....its like more then talk the more they should be quiet.
Yeah Dennis, I noticed the same thing. That's why a guest should know who else is going to be there.
Good show Guys. Interesting commentary. I gave it a shot today and I'm glad I did. I will be back!
Thanks for a good discussion about hell (yes, you CAN have one!)! I totally agree with the general reformed view on hell, that it is eternal separation from God and all His goodness. Just to further elaborate on your point Phil, right at the end. You said those who go there 'won't like it'. I would also say that those who are in hell do NOT and CANNOT want to be anywhere else (the only other alternative is with God). Look at the parable of the rich man in hell (Luke 16: 19-31). He did not want to leave, only for his torment to be eased. As you mentioned, the reality will be that those eternally separated will lose all of their humanity, the image of God that He gave them. That is surely, by definition, eternal torment in hell.
And yet the Bible says we turn to dust? Also the Bible has been misstranslated so often,how do we know whats true?
The rich man was actually in the intermediate state, Hades. So it wasn't his eternal state, even if the story describes a true event or a parable based on reality.
wrong....the New Testament does NOT teach this in the original Greek.Ultimately God will be ALL in ALL.
It's a parable that deals with the state of Jews Living out in the nations forgetting the Law that was only given to them.
So the only thing we can be sure remains as truth from both the OT and NT is that there is judgment for sin. How that is played out is less important than God's grace and mercy for those who believe in His only Son, Jesus Christ.
She was actually correct in that Peter says in Acts 2 that His soul was not left in “Hell”, or Hades in Greek.
I find all the speak about Sheol, afterlife, hades, etc etc minimizes the enormity of the resurrection. The resurrections meaning is maximized if “the wages of sin is death”. Man is physical in nature, to dust we return. We have no hope outside of resurrection.
Sam Walton is in Hell with Jimi Hendrix and Charles Grodin
hey guys. just discovered you. listened to sprinkle and Walton. love Christian's questions. I would love to participate in this discussion.
Dr. Walton says that idea of resurrection is first hinted at in Daniel 12. But what does he do with the point Jesus makes against the Sadducees in Mark 12?:
"And regarding the dead rising, have you not read about the burning bush in the book of Moses, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” You are badly mistaken!"
Jesus implies that evidence for the resurrection is found in this passage of the Torah. Was this exchange found in the burning bush account only considered evidence of resurrection in the time of Jesus? Can we not assume that it was evidence earlier, say, before the book of Daniel was penned?
So when do they talk about hell?
Please let Walton speak. Please condense the content.
Such a flippant attitude about such a serious topic. Too many people constantly interrupting with unrelated thoughts that get off topic. So, they tried to come to some conclusions about Hell and they were the following: "sin has consequences", "God will hold people responsible", and "God will judge every person's sin". They also said that hell was separation from God. Those are true, but there was no explanation about how to avoid hell, by trusting in Christ and in His death, burial and resurrection. There is absolute assurance in that. There is certainty in that. The lady spoke like you could not have certainty. But that is false. You can have certainty in salvation through repentance of sin and receiving Christ as Savior and Lord. The Good News Translation says in Hebrews 11:1 "To have faith is to be sure of the things we hope for, to be certain of the things we cannot see."
What systemic injustices?
Started watching my first and it didn't take long to realize this is a waste of time ..hopefully the one guy's material being used in the prison is better ..
Yeah, it takes like 20 minutes to actually talk about the topic in the title. I understand a few minutes of introductions and stuff. But when it's less than an hour and 20 minutes are spent on a bunch of controversial and unrelated stuff, it's not an ideal setup.
“So what do I have to look forward to?!?” Umm...how about Jesus.?.?.?
Matthew Vander Els does more in depth work-- also on UA-cam under "Afterlife' so put his name and lecture title--voila!
Steve Taylorrrrrr! (i only watched the intro and i like it!)
Re Dante's Inferno, it's worth remembering that the Catholic Church burned as heretic's the great artist's of the day if they didn't except commissions. Protestant's could probably get some great art work done if they just enslaved the major talent of the day.
knowsmebyname AMEN!
knowsmebyname "SHAPE CHARACTERS?" I AM NOT UPSET! CAPS ARE EASIER TO READ/TYPE FOR ME. Phil, sweetie MOST SCHOOLS "ARE" SHAPING/INFLUENCING KIDS TODAY! SDALY THEY WANT "SOCIALIST" PUPPETS. CHECK OUT ALL THE TEMPER TANTRUMS/PROTESTS AT ALL SCHOOLS! THEY DEVELOP FROM THE PRODDING OF ANTI-US ADULTS AND ATHEIST-SOCIALISTS. AS FOR THE GUNS, CHICAGO, MY BIRTHPLACE HAS BANNED THEM 20 YRS AGO OR LONGER. NOW THAT IS WHY THE NRA SAYS WHAT IT DOES. 🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
The amount of straw man arguments i witnessed in here about gun control was depressing. The hell conversation was great though.
Too much banter and silliness. Was hoping for a serious conversation.
Didn't Jesus say that you will always have the poor? Did Jesus come to save souls or bring equality
Rule out universalism? Depends on what kind. Jesus is THE way, and all will ultimately see Him as such and believe. That is in the Bible :) It may take some correction for them to get there, though.
Exactly what I was thinking. Nothing he discussed rules out universalism. That was a disappointing and uninformed response he made.
God is ultimate goodness. He did not create man to ultimately be condemned to Dante’s hell. Jesus came so that ALL might have life-abundant life. There is life and post-life. Those who have not done what they should have in this his life will be “dealt with” after death. Judgment is not “forever punishment.” It exists to bring “bad people” around to accept God’s purpose to be ALL IN ALL!
Yeah...I agree on Walton on something, Jesus didn't go to 'hell'.
Descended to the dead -in the creed because church fathers wanted to declare that Jesus actually died- dispel agnostic thinking .
Think, Luke 16 for how pre-NT understanding of the after life. After Jesus was crucified the righteous went to heaven while the unrighteous await the resurrection to the Great White Throne Judgement.
hey, please allow John speaks and explain! you three interrupted him so much!! it is so rude! I could not learn anything because you did not let John complete his explanation and you were so so messy, very bad in my point of view.
who are these clowns ?..laughing n giggling about eternal damnation
Well, I kinda understand it.
People with dark humor
Understand that it's awful, and use humor to cope with it. As bad as it sounds, it's really just a coping device. (*´ｪ｀*)
36:00
Your poorly informed anti gun comments are disappointing.
You claim a "good guy," with a gun has little effect in a specific example but ignore it was lethal force that stopped lethal force.
Sho is way to foolish!
Batman is quite presumptuous to claim he knows the motivation behind every individual member of the NRA.
He dismisses with one fell swoop the Constitutional Rights motive with gun sales and the others merely blink.
He insists that we MUST be politicalized. 12 minutes is all I needed to know how full of malarkey this show is.
~Steven of Montreal
It's interesting how he uses ancient Judaism to discard the hellish lake of fire, but not the heavenly New Jerusalem. So there is no hell but there's a heaven. Walton's poor use of the Hebrew scripture has left other Hebrew scholars shaking their heads.
With this kind of hermeneutic, Walton would have us believe that the kingdom of heaven is literally a mustard seed. Even though Jesus used gehenna and many other things that the Jews were familiar with to explain the spiritual realities of the lake of fire and heaven. Hence the use of the Jewish parables in the tannattic period. Read some ancient Jewish material please before you get so confident.
For real?!? Catholic universities and Christian universities? What? News flash - Catholic universities ARE Christian universities. Perhaps you meant Catholic universities and Protestant universities. While you may differ with much Catholic theology, do you really feel that Catholics should not be considered under the Christian "umbrella?" Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong to say this.
I'll take "Missing the Point" for 1000, Alex.
This is how the protestant revolt has gone full circle. Before the deformation began by Luther the words Catholic and Christian were equivalent. When sects of Catholics (for they were ALL Catholics); began to re-define for themselves what 'christian' meant; they kept the name 'christian', but in time they became less and less so as they grew in number and more outlandish interpretations of what it meant to be christian. Now 500 years later and over 40,000 (and counting) groups claiming to be the Truth; they look upon on the original and unchanged Christianity in Catholicism, and based on their (often very estranged) interpretation of Christianity question whether Catholics are even Christian. This is akin to these same groups questioning whether or not Jesus or His Apostles were even Christian!!!!
39knights you should do your hw. the same source that makes that claim of the many protestant denominations includes the Roman catholicism in this group with hundreds of roman Catholic denominations. If you're going to rely on that information you also have to accept the many roman Catholic Denominations that they mention.
m.ncregister.com/blog/scottericalt/we-need-to-stop-saying-that-there-are-33000-protestant-denominations#.WqYXaXNOnqA
The guy to the far left is annoying. All his joke cracking.