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Reading the Old Testament: The Ancient Origins and Authority of Scripture | John Walton & Erin Darby
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- Опубліковано 29 січ 2017
- John Walton and Erin Darby discuss their perspectives on the Old Testament at The Veritas Forum: "Reading the Old Testament: The Ancient Origins and Authority of Scripture." | University of Tennessee, 2015 | Explore more at www.veritas.org.
John Walton - Professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College
Erin Darby - Assistant Professor in Department of Religious Studies at the University of Tennessee
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I have been employed as a translator of parts of the Hebrew bible. When translating I never, never, never, look and any modern translation until I have finished the whole thing. I only consult the LXX, targums, and Peshita to resolve text problems. The reason for this is to prevent my translation from being influenced by those that have preceded me.
I wrote a reply yesterday, but it evidently did not get preserved. I will try to reproduce what I wrote at that time. There are literally an endless supply of books on or about the Bible. All you need to do is go to any library. You do not need to know Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, or Latin to make sense of the content of most books. However, regardless of which translation you use, you will be looking through the lens of the translator's biases and presuppositions. No translator gets the opportunity to explain his exegetical and syntactical decisions. That was the reason why I taught myself first Hebrew and then Greek. Commentaries are helpful if you realize that the same limitations apply. You can look at my blog articles (yoni.taylor@blogspot.com) if you like. I focus on passages that have interpretive problems, but about 90% of the text is free of such difficulties.
Learning Hebrew and such would still pose as a problem. If not raised during the times the Bible was written would not that also be somewhat of an interpretation barrier as well?
@@MotoBaumVirginia Your comment applies only in instances where a particular word or syntactic construction occurs exactly once and nowhere else even in other languages or dialects. In such cases there is always uncertainty about intended meaning.
I love Jesus, I’m at a position of finding God and strengthening my relationship with the Holy Spirit. I’ve am a prodigal child of God I want to go home.
Well bless you for sharing that simple yet beautiful truth about yourself. Hold it tight.
“ No-one shall come to me except as a little child.”
Interesting and enlightening as these discussions may be the fact is we are reconciled with our maker through FAITH, not through intellect or getting our theological ducks lined up.
Yours is the FAITH position.
Therefore; it is pleasing to God.
I don't understand the venom in the comments directed at Professor Darby. Although I also disagree with some of her interpretations, she seems polite and friendly, even though she interprets the Old Testament from a secular and academic perspective. If she were reviewing other religions' holy texts (say, the Hindu Vedas or the Koran) that way, we'd have no problem with that at all, but when it's *OUR* book... Add to that that, as Christians, we also have points of disagreement with how Jewish rabbis and scholars teach the Old Testament (like how the serpent was not Satan and Satan being a servant of - not an opponent of - YHWH, not to mention their view that nothing in the Old Testament is in any way related to Jesus) but we're tolerant of those views and our disagreements with them. Certainly no one sensible would say that Jews have no business teaching "our" Old Testament. We can respectfully disagree without insulting the woman and understand that her methodology of analysis (and therefore her conclusions) will differ from our own.
Damn, I really like this comment. I haven't watched the video yet, but noticed that it seems a lot of Christians were bashing the hell out of her. So, as an atheist I thought one of two things were true. Either she is just a shit person and was being unreasonable throughout this entire interaction (in which case, I wouldn't care to watch this at all) or some Christians are not willing, at all, to hear another analysis of their text outside of their bubble of influence. Thank you for clearing that up and being reasonable about this discussion. I'll watch it and see what both have to say.
Last century there was a lot of pop culture talk that the apostles were dumb clucks who didn't understand Jesus. But one Christian shut them down with, "Surely, the people who lived where he lived, in the time he lived, and spoke the same languages he spoke, maybe even spoke to him, understood him better than anybody living in the West in the 20th century." On the other hand, some of the Gnostic Christians of old wrote the same thing about the apostles not understanding Jesus in their day.
I really enjoyed this discussion. However, I think there is an underestimation of the availability of the literate to the oral society of early Israel given the Levites and especially the rotation of the priestly class as alluded to in Luke.
Probably the most common interpretive mistakes Israelis, native speakers of modern Hebrew, make is to interpret the biblical Hebrew text on the basis of modern Hebrew meanings of words and syntax. For example the syntax of verb forms is completely different in modern Hebrew, even though the forms and pronunciation are the same. The meaning of some words have changed completely, and some have dropped out of use completely. In contrast, Koine Greek is so different from modern Greek that native speakers of modern Greek cannot reed the New Covenant texts without instruction -- like modern speakers of English trying to read the original text of Chaucer.
It would be helpful to hear what the questions from the audience are.
Just as an aside, brain neurones ARE found in the major organs, the heart, liver, gut etc all contain a little brain matter.
Source?
They lost me when she said that some biblical authors didn't understand what the authors of earlier passages were saying. So, Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit misquoted David, or Isaiah? Paul, a Jew, is less Informed on the cultural and religious meanings of ancient Jewish writings than a modern day English speaking white woman. That statement alone seems absurd. Add to it the simple (foolish to some) faith in God to actually be responsible for the content of the Bible and I think I will choose to trust Paul over any of those speakers today who kick sand on scripture.
A Carpenter's Son
I was surprised to read your comments, " I choose to trust Paul over any of those speakers today who kick sand on scripture" But why trust a man who was a self-confessed deceiver of men? And a misogynist to boot?
@@edwardlongfellow5819
You are surprised? That is a deceitful thing to say.
@@acarpentersson8271
i deceitful? I am astonished to find you saying such a thing when I but relayed Paul's very own words. And your lack of knowledge of Paul's admissions is rather surprising.
@@edwardlongfellow5819
There you go again with. You are astonished? I find it hard to believe that I have surprised & astonished you. I will answer your question, but you have to be honest and not so dramatic.
@@acarpentersson8271
Thank you for consideration of my question concerning Paul's own admission of deceit.
I await your communication with interest.
Regards.
Great opening true and honest very human and yet very third person so it gave teaching perspective I was gonna judge until listened
Fantastic. One of the best, clearest, most respectful, insightful and thorough talks/debates on the net on these complex biblical "issues", especially considering the short time at disposal. Thank you
yea next is hans christian anderson he alsp wrote great fairy stories
I am really disappointed by many of the comments posted to this video by Christian viewers. She isn't 'babbling,' she isn't taking shots at Walton and she isn't ignorant. Whatever you think of the issues here, it is a terribly testimony to non-believers to trash someone who says things that make you uncomfortable. It's hard not to think that people who react this way aren't struggling with suppressed doubt themselves.
There are many evidences of a worldwide flood. Such as seashells on high mountains. Why do these experts not even consider it. The Old Testament is Christ concealed, but the New Testament is Christ revealed. In the book of Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18 it says aren't all these things written in the book of Jasher. So it's not just one writer but at least two. In the mouth of two or three witnesses let everything be established. (2 Corinthians 13 :1) Jasher means upright or the book of the Upright. It gives more details of creation and the patriarchs than Genesis does. Also it doesn't mention anything about fallen Angels having sex with women as some individuals interpret Genesis Chapter 6. How do you have herds of wooly mammoths preserved with food in their stomachs in frozen ice if it were not for a great catastrophic event like the flood. All scripture is given by inspiration of God and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and instruction in righteousness. (2 Timothy 3:16) Have a blessed day and may God watch over you and your family.
Misinformation is abundant especially in bible versions from the Alexandrian liniage. Who added to, and/or removed verses from the bible? Chuck Missler shows us who and when this corruption happened , as does Walter Veith.
Gemetria is thought by some to be esoteric.
Each letter of both Greek and Hebrew are assigned a number this has been explained to be used as a crosschecker to prevent error. This was said to be used to verify the accuracy of a sentence or paragraph as the number of each letter was added up.
If the number is at variance a scribe would not amend his mistake, he would discard the copy entirely and make a new copy. This letter =# number gemetria was the crosschecker.
The heptatic structure found in the original Greek and Hebrew was discovered by Ivan Pannin, who got a masters degree from Harvard in mathematics and applied this to the bible. This link is about this.
Ivan Panin g.co/kgs/d9hFBL
Chuck Missler gives a history lecture of over 2 hours in total ending with a description of Ivans work. This is not gemetria.
Both Chuck and Walter identify who corrupted Gods word.
ua-cam.com/video/5ZsZLDWWZMs/v-deo.html
Chuck Missler how we got our bible.
ua-cam.com/video/RqBEuxGY7DI/v-deo.html
changing the word. Veith.
By watching the first quarter hour of this video, the truth will become evident.
Edit --Oven-- came up from spellchecker for Ivan
I agree silent storm. Much of Chuck Missler work is brilliant but as he said himself do your homework.
How we got our bible is helpful in understanding a lot spoken in this discussion.
Consider the documentary Patterns of Evidence-Exodus, which moves the Exodus further back in history
Erin Darby just wants to disagree with everything Dr. Walton has to say. She thinks it makes her the most erudite, when the way Dr. Walton responds out of his generosity and grace, she seems pathetic.
I wonder if she knows who shares the stage with her...
I don't think so.
As if Walton is any better.
The Christian Cowboy wow.. I just commented on that then I scrolled down and saw yours... she’s trying to piggyback on his shine!!
You must be in the chosen club cowboy, I’m in the club and I think she’s great.
It takes an academic to make something more complicated than it really is.
If something doesn't get more complex the more you look at it, you're probably not really looking at it
@@grantbartley483 - I've been studying the Bible for over 40 years. The more I read the more I understand, because I have the Holy Spirit to guide me. My guess is those that think it's complicated might want to pray for guidance.
@@rtosborne3 Are you saying the more you understand, the simpler it gets? I would be very surprised (and sceptical) if you find that to be the case. The universe is a complex place. Please credit God with the sophistication he deserves; which is not only more than we understand, but more than we could understand. Sure the gospel for instance can be understood by children. But we shouldn't be drinking milk all our lives. At some point we should move on to solids. As Einstein said, everything should be as simple as possible, but no simpler.
When we talk about books and authors in the Ancient World, let’s understand we are not talking literally but by equivalency. Scrolls, tablets, writers,scribes are equivalents for intelligent readers. Dr. Walton splits hairs and purposely sows doubts in weak minds. The Bible is timeless. Isaiah and Abraham were human beings just like Noah or any of us. Be flexible and adjust the terminology as needed....
yes lets pretend to know that which we can not possible know .And lets suspend logic reason and credulity so we can have blind faith
In the end the majority of things written about ancient times must be taken by faith. I will place my faith in the one who returned from the dead (AKA Jesus Christ) who believed in the books we now call the old testament.
That'saFactJack
Did Jesus Christ really return from death? While his execution is officially recorded the same cannot be said for any claimed resurrection.
And was Jesus well versed in the writings recorded in the Old Testament?
Of course as a claimed son of God, he should have been.It would have been second nature to him. Unfortunately Jesus made errors in his speech making when he recalled biblical history. Thus it appears the gospel writers must have been led astray in their communication with the Holy Ghost.
@@edwardlongfellow5819
God foretold the crucifixion of the Savior centuries before the Romans invented this gruesome practice. The resurrection is just part of this ice burg of Biblical revelation you can see above the water and it's just sitting there bobbing in the cold frigid waters waiting patiently for your unsinkable titanic life in the end to strike against it. Full speed ahead.
@@thatsafactjack7420
It makes no sense for God to have foretold of the execution of Jesus centuries before its occurrence. Methinks you are erroneously relying on Isaiah 53 as a credible reference to Jesus. It does not.
@@edwardlongfellow5819
Well, Me thinks since you referenced Isaiah 53, you are probably aware of what the rest of the scriptures say about Him and are truly without excuse when that day comes. It's sorta like how the religious leaders chastised Jesus for healing a man on the Sabbath. Blinded by their lofty religious ways they could not embrace the glaring truth of a cripple man receiving instantaneous molecular repair via a verbal command. From that day forward they conspired to destroy him and many have tried ever since.
@@thatsafactjack7420
Instantaneous molecular repair is strikingly at odd with the calling out of demons by Jesus from the body of a man inhabited by this believed evil spirits.
Jewish leaders may well have conspired to put an end to Jesus for they viewed him as a troublemaker. As did the Romans.
Sounds to me like this guy is sowing doubt. I have absolute faith that the intent of The Most High God is successfully transmitted to both believers and those who are still seeking, through His Holy Spirit guiding both the translation of the Holy Scriptures and our reception of God's intent.
@@susanpepper148 Ms Pepper, I think you addressed a reply to me that was meant for another commenter.
My short post only says God can and does protect the translation of His Word. My comment says nothing about the easily refuted position that the Holy Scriptures, which means written words, were oral.
Some people find answers to everyday questions in the Bible. We cannot overlook the unchanging disobedience of some of his people over hundreds of generations. Yet, his love never ends. The sun shines and it rains on the godly and ungodly.. Thank you very much for your informative discussions.Happy New Year. 2020.
@@PSBindy There are thousands of translations of the holy scripture.
An excellent discussion, to say they very, very least.
I was illiterate until thirteen years ago yet I succeeded in thriving in a literate world, the whole of creation started with words, and Yeshua"s death on the cross is shown to us throughout the old testament with Abraham crossing over to the true path so he could walk with God as did Adam, the word Hebrew means to traverse, to cross over, Elijah and Elisha both patted the river Jordan to cross over, Moses parted the dead Sea in order for the tribes to cross over, he crossed the desert leading the tribes in exodus, he had the camp set up in the form of a cross with the Ark of the covenant at its heart, just as Yeshua had his beloved head on the cross. All is in Yahweh's hands.
You are still illiterate. Amen, brother!
These experts need to read some books on Mount Sinai in Arabia. There is where the real place was where the Israelites camped and Moses went up the mountain. The top is chard black, and there are stone carvings and other stones that provide evidence that it was likely the place.
The people that present these things to you are not honest. As an example of their dishonesty, I suggest that you find this place on Google Earth. You will find that the black topped mountains are everywhere for hundreds of square miles. They present it as if there is just this one mountain when most of the mountains are charred black.
Read Nicolas Berdyaev "The destiny of man"
I believe the Bible was written for us, that we would see What was,
What is And is t
Wonderful discussion, thanks for this.
John looks like film director David Fincher's slightly older brother.
Abraham lived at the same time as Shem who would have been an eye witness to the flood and would have heard the stories of the patriarchs from Adam. So the Bible has an authoritative source of information about the origin of man and the flood that predates the story of Gilgamesh which was recorded after the flood.
Why is everything in the Old Testament by g-d ? The Torah? For example.
The woman who is talking is not getting to the point. Needs to edit.
the originals has gotten the light back, watch the counterfiets go into darkness, then you will know that Jesus is really Lord
This has nothing to do with the topic, but Godfather II is most certainly not better than Godfather I. The best sequel ever, but not better. A total side note, of course.
Prescriptive vs Descriptive nice
Who is this lady who won't shut up about "the importance of reading?"
The Old Testament is nothing violence and death. Is this good?
It tells the journey of a people. So things like that will be in there. Life is full of violence and death. Look at the world around you. Why would you think the bible would be different? We are violent so there is violence in the book.
My 2-cents about your scholarship (i.e., Walton and Darby's) is, that in your lecture you leave out the working of the Holy Spirit. When Moses on the mountain, received GOD's instructions for building the Tabernacle in the desert, He gave Oholiab the Holy Spirit so that he could do things that were impossible for other humans. I believe, that the Hebrew scriptures was intended for all to understand without any limitations.
It's not for you, only the people it's written for will understand. Leave you to guess?
Curious as to why the "Hebrew" texts are the final joriginal/authority of "Biblical Scripture" we know and see today...yet...this entity doesn't mention one time that our "Hebrew" texts origninated a thousand years earlier being recorded on the Babylonian and then Sumerian texts... I find it egregious our "Christian authorities" on Scripture employ obtuse vision and refuse to share the whole Truth and nothing but the Truth. Instead? Sit in a forum and bantor back and forth with a state employee. Classic Veritas Forum...classic. Wonder if you'll delete this comment as well...time will tell.
John Johnson
The Hebrew texts don’t claim to be the first. The first eleven chapters of Genesis take place in the Ancient Near East (Sumer, Akkad, Babylon, Mesopotamia, etc.), which were dedicated to different gods. Deut 32:6-7 (LXX) and Gen 11 show that Babylonians built a tower/ziggurat to bring the gods down to the earth before Israel was even a promise.
Babylon, Egypt, and plenty others (even in certain Native American and Australia Aboriginal stories) speak about a flood, serpents, giants, etc.
It’s good that you see the cross-cultural connections because most people don’t. The Hebrew Scriptures were actually a direct polemic against everything the Babylonians worshipped. It claimed that the true God spoke to a humble Mesopotamian named Abraham, the son of a Babylonian idol-worshipper, and allowed him to miraculously give birth to the son who would be the ancestor to a nation, a dynasty, and eventually the Messiah of the world.
I find it very depressing that a lot of Christians making comments dis attempts at understanding and rather revel in the simplicity of their ignorance. If that's you, you're ready for solid food for thought. Shame on you.
I should say, Christians should make yourself ready by seeking understanding.
the ancient languge is alive and well. your wicked time is over, listen to the footsteps of your inevitable darkness . Jesus is the only way out. no one living or dead has been proven to be smarter than Jesus. 2000 years uhmm its over.
It was tough to do but I have finally moved away from a hyper literal reading of the Bible
Jarrod & James: A distinction I've personally found helpful in understanding the scripture is that our interpretive methods (e.g., the grammatico-historical exegetical method) should neither exclude nor insist upon the text's use of literal language vs. figurative language, but should leave that as a matter of discernment by the reader of the author's original intention in what they wrote, and accomplished by looking at different levels of context, vocabulary, usage, etc. Yes, this kind of 'reverse engineering' of the author's original meaning/intent does involve careful and often extended study of the text in its linguistic, cultural, and historical contexts, but it also means that one doesn't eisegete (superimpose) a comprehensive literal vs. figurative point of view INTO the text by insisting, in spite of any indications and clues in the context to the contrary, that its language must be EITHER literal or figurative. Many biblical passages turn out to be various admixtures of literal and figurative speech, a characteristic which many other kinds of literature evidence as well. Basic human nature is the same now as in ancient times and there exists a huge continuity and commonality between the Bible authors and Bible readers, even across cultures and languages, in that humans of the past and present both routinely employ BOTH literal speech and figures of speech (cf. John 16:29)-and to the extent that the even the same TYPES of figures of speech-e.g., metaphor, simile, personification, allegory-tend to persist through time and transcend cultures and languages as well. So my bottom-line point here is: We shouldn't employ METHODS of interpretation which demand any particular degree of literalness or figurativeness up front, but should simply let the text speak for itself-in terms of its own use of literal language and figures of speech-when we read and study it.
A practical example: Sometimes the claim is made that 'The Bible is not a book of science, but a book of religion' and so it is then advised that the approach we should take with passages such as Genesis 1:1-2:4 is to interpret them 'spiritually'-i.e., for their perceived theological meaning (i.e., the language is symbolic-figurative-in some way or ways) which then usually reduces the interpretation down to significantly LESS information than the author of the passage put into it. Likewise, and usually in deference to Darwinian macroevolution, some Bible interpreters resort to allegorizing the entire account of Adam and Eve in order to avoid an HISTORICAL conflict between the ideas of macroevolution and the special creation by God of humans. I grant that the thoughtful people doing this in their Bible interpretation do so as a way of resolving apparent epistemological conflicts-here, a conflict over human origins-but the way in which the 'allegorizers ' treat Genesis results in a resolution that I think ignores important clues in the text itself and which superimposes a comprehensive figurative interpretive framework onto its language which is foreign to the author's intent. In such cases, the correct resolution presumably lies elsewhere than in allegorization of an entire passage which doesn't bear the earmarks of an allegory in the first place. It does make for a more direct confrontation with Darwinian macroevolution in that both it and the special creation of human beings by God as recounted in Genesis cannot be true at the same time. To the extent that the scientific method itself is followed dispassionately, I think we will eventually have the answer to this apparent conflict via the scientific method alone, providing there is sufficient data, and indeed there is already a burgeoning literature on this subject.
I've also found it striking that when individuals who possess both extensive scientific training and extensive Bible interpretation training have examined texts such as Genesis 1:1-2:4 (see my links below) they see a detailed, point-by-point HARMONIZATION between the two, though-contrary to what some might expect-they also see this passage as primarily enumerating geophysical/biological HISTORY, rather than as solely providing a theological meaning via the comprehensive use of figurative/symbolic language. If these interdisciplinary scholars are correct, then Genesis 1:1-2:4 is not primarily figurative/symbolic, but historical, in its content, and it DOES square with science-just as it should-since geophysical cosmogony is a scientific subdiscipline that addresses Earth's history specifically; the problem with uncovering this harmony before modern times has simply been that we either haven't had sufficient data available in science and/or in Bible scholarship to be able to perceive it, or we didn't have sufficiently trained interdisciplinary scholars who are able to acceptably coordinate and marry the data of the two fields, without fudging or forcing any of it, until recently.
Two examples of such harmonization:
www.amazon.com/Genesis-Origin-Earth-Robert-Newman/dp/1521003874/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=Genesis+One+and+the+origin+of+the+earth&qid=1558931467&s=gateway&sr=8-1
www.amazon.com/gp/product/1886653860/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1
Chipsaplentyband - well said. :-)
the Qur'An refers to Christians as people of the book.
This is exactly why these Heathens don't need to put their hands on OUR BOOK. They dont know what's going on. Read that Malicah and let's see if they still believe the Bible.
👀
This chick is like, "Its not about the truth of the text, its about the 'journey' of reading it and struggling with it". THIS is why unbelievers should not even touch the text. They DO NOT CARE about the TRUE author of it all. God.
She is a stuffed shirt, er blouse. Pride comes first then what?!
Why do you need 7 Noahide Laws Ordered for you by Luciferien Tribe..." Stick to 10 commandments. Whats wrong w/ you? You are Just Piggy Bank for Izrael They love you pay all their charities , can you live there, Work there buy house, ? Became Citizen? Ih i know they expertly are decieving You. No they are your Money
what kind of crowd do you have as an audience there that only a few liked "The Godfather"?,...not a "normal" crowd to be sure.
Probably most of the brainy people who like to study ancient times don't like The Godfather. I don't like The Godfather and I don't know what people see in it. (I have copies of a thousand movies from 30s - 60s.)
If you liked this kind of thing I'd recommend watching Dr. Michael Heiser. He is more knowledgeable and does a much better job of explaining the topic of the bible, it's origins, what the people of the time believed, etc. I think he has spoiled me because honestly this was painful to watch. I got virtually nothing out of it.
Ethiopian Bible
Kill, murder, kill, murder, destroy, Gentiles first..
(Scriptural coordinate, edited) "Hebrew" Bible, huh? Nah... Israelite Bible (OT). No? Then please ancestrally define a Hebrew. The people/nation of Israel was established in the Land of Canaan (pre-Egypt), where there were NO sanctioned Hebrew wives (Gen 24:3; 28:1-4; 37:1). Jacob-Israel's patriarchal sons married who, then? Who were their wives? Judah was disowned for marrying a "Canaanitess" (1Chr 2:3) (Mal 2:11-12). Joseph was sold off into Egypt. God/Moses delineated forbidden spouses (Deu 7:1-5), affirmed by Ezra, with a few additions (Ezra 9:1-2). Who did the remaining ten Israelite patriarchs marry in the Land of Canaan, then? Who were the sanctioned matriarchs of the people/nation of Israel? "Hebrew" Bible is a semantic delusion propagated by anti-Semites. Moses was an Israelite, of the Israelite tribe of Levi...
What a bunch of yammering! Just ASK God! Test Him in your skeptical unbelief!! Some people just can't come to grips with REALITY. HE is God and WE are NOT!
Except that many persons ln the OT are known never to have existed, and that includes Moses and David and others.
Of course if inspired it does not matter. It is mystical
She doesn’t need to be teaching anything about Christianity..and her babbling doesn’t help people who would usually get something out of a lesson like this..
Jon Anthony hiya, yours is by far the wisest comment in this section.
She is a teacher of the Old Testament, not Christianity. Jewish people also teach the Old Testament in a way that as not teaching Christianity (and in ways that you'd think wrong because they'd conflict with Christianity (or, just as likely, and probably what she does, they'd teach the Christian interpretation as only one truth but say that other true readings also exist).
two babblers
Thus publicising your lack of insight. Do you make a habit of that? Shame on you
"Hi. I'm a heretic."
"Oh, hi. Me too! What kind are you?"
"I'm a post-modern, gnostic heretic."
"Wow. I'm a modernist, naturalist heretic."
"Great. I'm sure we'll find out what is Biblical truth if we debate each other..."
That women is pretty clueless and caustic to boot!
I guess they disagree with David Rohl. What a bunch of rubbish. If Moses is not real, what is the point?
Moses is real. His laws that are written was edited SIMILAR to the American constitution.
Im not sure where you are coming from. Look into PHD Michael Hesier
More heat than light. Waist of everyone's time. Its like listening to grade school children talk about sex.
Waste of my time reading your ignorance
@@grantbartley483 So what did you read? I see you think you are a writer. Where the "Church" came from: www.bitchute.com/video/D5WcxOozzBlT/
You said the bible was written for us but not written to us ? I know the book of Revelation (future ) , was written to us and only began revealing its true meanings as God put Israel back in the land and as history catches up with Jesus' revelation of things to come the book of revelation becomes understandable. Over 800 illusions to the end times are found in the old and new testament written for us . Isaiah 53 tells of the coming of Jesus and his crucifixion. Psalms 22 tells of Christs future Crucifixion. Psalm 22 , The first and last sentences are the first and last sentences Jesus spoke on the cross. The Brasen Serpent lifted up in the wilderness in the day of Moses and all who looked upon it were saved from death from the bite of the serpent s bite. Thousands of years later in John we hear Jesus speak to Nicademus that you must be born again and Jesus says , Just as the brasen serpant was raised up in the wilderness so must the son of man be lifted up. The bible was written for us , to the Jew first then to the gentile but it was both old and new testament meant for ancient peoples and a future generation. Seek and you will find knock and the door will be opened. The word of God is the key of knowledge. And the Lord speaks to us through the prophets and reveals secrets to those who seek his face.
God did not put Israel back in the land. The Zionists went back in against God's rule.
The Hebrew Scriptures both Old & New Covenants are the written inspired word that is “The Signpost” To Elohim Yehovah
God has given layers and layers to reinforce the message, now it might have been changed but it still points us all to God!
The Eternal Word became human The Lord Jesus Christ who brought The New Creation & New Covenant at His Baptism! Culminating at The Cross and Resurrection 🕊
The old has Gone Behold The New Covenant in His Blood ✝️
Be filled with The Holy Spirit 🕊
Led by Him continually moment by moment.....
The Purpose Of The Scriptures is to give Gods message that mankind is in Need Of His Salvation, to bring us into Covenantal relationship for All Eternity with Him!
Because of Adams Sin.
A Berean had the “scripture” to fact check their mail, correspondence latter becoming what we now know as the New Testament. The purpose of the bib’el , best seller of man, is to further the confusion and delusion of the modern “prophet”. King Prophet Witness David said...
“With the lovingly-committed You show Yourself lovingly-committed; With the perfect one You show Yourself perfect; With the clean You show Yourself clean; And with the crooked You show Yourself twisted. For You save the afflicted people, But bring down those whose eyes are haughty.”
Tehillim (Psalms) 18:25-27 TS2009
And the prophets agree...
““For anyone of the house of Yisra’ĕl, or of the strangers who sojourn in Yisra’ĕl, who separates himself from Me and sets up his idols in his heart and puts the stumbling-block of his crookedness before his face, and shall come to a prophet to inquire of him concerning Me, I יהוה shall answer him Myself. “And I shall set My face against that man and make him a sign and a proverb, and I shall cut him off from the midst of My people. And you shall know that I am יהוה. “And if the prophet is deceived, and shall speak a word, I יהוה have deceived that prophet, and shall stretch out My hand against him and destroy him from the midst of My people Yisra’ĕl.”
Yehezqĕl (Ezekiel) 14:7-9 TS2009
Always was the battle of our hearts.
I understand what you're saying by it is written for us, not to us. But when you say I wasn't in mind when it was written you lose me. John 17, Jesus prays for those who will believe based on the preaching of the Gospel not the seeing of the Son. John 6:45 I believe, says we are all taught by God. God foreknew us, chose us, before the foundation of the world was laid. If did not have you or me in mind then we are not His. Also, there is much in common with all people of all times and places. The same sin nature, the same temptation, exists in the entirety of mankind. We have the same enemy and the same Savior.
So in a sentence they don't know anything
Pretty good, I think. At least he doesn't sound, or think, like Mr. Contrivance, Dennis Prager.
Am simply an atheist who could be persuaded by adequate evidence. But, at age 77, am certain I will never encounter such.
A real god, who inspired the scriptures, oral or written, would have been fully capable of avoiding all the unknowns, interpretations and doubts of the ages regardless of cultural differences and scientific evolution. It all just doesn't pass the smell test in spite of the qualities and wisdom of the scholars.
I think that proof isn't enough for most people, something more is needed... perhaps a feeling inside, who knows for sure.
Jesus could be standing right here in front of us, raise someone from the dead and there would be people saying it was a trick of some kind. Others would say the source of His act was actually satanic in nature, so...
I guess my point is that I see many people saying that all they need is some proof and when it is given, they move the goalpost and redefine the level of proof they need.
I do hope that you get to the place you need to be, so as to understand the truth.
@@michaelwill7811 Am at the "place I need to be". It's high time we get over religion and base our lives on reality. Am convinced the world will be better off that way. We are getting there, but altogether too slowly.
V Grof, how sad......
God Bless you may you find him soon...
@ V Grof; Sir, God offers no evidence as proof; Saul of Tarsus was knocked off of his horse by a blinding light from heaven...Saul was an highly educated Jew concerning the Law, a Pharisee of Pharisees and believer in God. My question sir, how high is your horse, as God knocks everyone from their horse...through the preaching of the Gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.
Text-locked evangelicalism, with a weak concept of Church is not the best place to understand the nature and role of the bible, unfortunately. Text obsession is the mariology of the west.
BIBLE vs SCIENCE
The problem is how can we override what we have been taught and fall back to the truth in the Bible!
This is non-debatable!
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
This warning is directly at the words of Revelation because this is the message from Jesus by an angel to John!
So, Jesus says;
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
BY 2 OR 3 WITNESSES
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
STARS ARE NOT FAR FROM US
AN IMPORTANT POINT IF THIS HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH MAKING THE CUT TO HEAVEN...
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
GOD SAYS YOU CAN'T GO THERE NASA!
Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
THERE ARE NO ALIENS COMING!
1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science
falsely so called.
THE EARTH IS NOT MOVING
Psa 93:1 The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved.
Psa 96:10 Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.
Psa 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
Zec 1:11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.
WE CAN'T GO INTO SPACE!
AND JESUS IS RETURNING THE SAME WAY HE LEFT
Act_1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
He is just above us!
SUN MOON AND STARS MOVE
2Ki 20:9 And Isaiah said, This sign shalt thou have of the LORD, that the LORD will do the thing that he hath spoken: shall the shadow go forward ten degrees, or go back ten degrees?
2Ki 20:10 And Hezekiah answered, It is a light thing for the shadow to go down ten degrees: nay, but let the shadow return backward ten degrees.
2Ki 20:11 And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.
Isa 38:8 Behold, I will bring again the shadow of the degrees, which is gone down in the sun dial of Ahaz, ten degrees backward. So the sun returned ten degrees, by which degrees it was gone down.
Jos 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Hab 3:11 The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.
THE ELECT
1Pe_2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
Mat_24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat_24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mar_13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mar_13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mar_13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
IS THERE ANY DELUSION YOU CAN THINK OF BIGGER THAN WHERE YOU LIVE AND GOD'S WORD!?
THERE IS MUCH MUCH MORE!
THE BIBLE IS A FLAT NON-MOVING EARTH BOOK!
3 LIES IN SCIENCE
BIG BANG
EVOLUTION
72% WATERBALL SPINNING, ROTATING,WOBBLING, TRAVELING THOUGHOUT THE UNIVERSE.
IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE THE FIRST 2 WHY BUY ANYTHING THEY SAY THAT GOES AGAINST THE BOOK OF GOD BREATHED WORD?!
If your mission is to make all Christians look stupid, you can congratulate yourself because that is exactly what you are achieving. It's idiots like you that drive sane people away from religion with your idiotic flat earth etc. lies that no sane people will ever accept.
If there is an afterlife, it's you that will have to be explaining to the creator why you worked to drive people away from him and why did you lie about his creation? Even the book itself says "prove all things", and all proof points to a spherical earth so you with your flat earth fantasy seem to be working for the father of lies, not the creator of the universe.
Bunch of "educated" guessers.
Word
At least they're educated
@@grantbartley483 Are they? If they are, they are educated in the wrong things.
@@michaele5075 What are you educated in Micheal?
@@grantbartley483 What are you educated in Grant?
Talking rubish
two b's, rub·bish.