The Sega Model 2 and the Sega Saturn
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- Опубліковано 9 лис 2018
- There was a time when Sega's Model 2 arcade hardware ruled the arcade landscape with hit after hit. Some of these games are even credited with extending the life of the arcade scene itself. When Sega's beleaguered Saturn launched, no one expected it to be able to do any of the Model 2 games any justice after Daytona USA showed such little promise.....
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*Episode notes:
The emulator Nebula Model 2 was used for the arcade games. I couldn't capture the arcades original resolution, so these games are artificially boosted in image quality by the emulator. Some games had noticeable hiccups and visual anomalies, however.
I captured the Saturn footage via a OSSC at 480p, as my Elgato GC HD refuses to accept its line triple mode. These Saturn games can look much better upscaled. I also couldn't get my editing software to make the Saturn games a perfect 4:3 inside the little frame, which is why they appear a little smaller than the arcade screen.
I had a heck of a time getting some of the arcade games to work properly with my analog controllers. Some simply wouldn't control properly no matter what I did.
Most of the music playing with each game comes from that game. I used Hang On GP 95's music with Manx TT because it sounds better. There's a couple others I changed up as well.
There's an error in the Virtual On segment. Going on memory, I had thought Virtual On was a product of the SGL. It wasn't, apparently. Most of the AM2 stuff after Virtua Fighter and Daytona was, however.
There's also an error in the title of the video. When it zooms in, it says "The Sega Model 2 and the The Sega Saturn". Missed that in editing. - Ігри
There's a little detail added to the episode in the description if you'd like to know more about how I made it.
You are a Sega expert. Why is it that Daytona 2 (a favorite arcade game of mine) was never ported to any console? Or was it?
Daytona 2 was well beyond Saturn's capability, and honestly, I don't think the DC could have done it either. By the time a system was out that could, I think it was a license issue.
Awesome video bro!
I bought Max TT in Japan when it first came out and it was credited as having 40 frames per second?
Sega Lord X I noticed the emulator glitches, as I used it in the past a lot :-) never got it 100% smooth because of FPS in the emu not being forced to a true 60fps (instead somewhere around 58fps I believe).
Great vid as always!
I will never forget the first time i saw Virtua Fighter 2 on my own TV...
Me too, man. I still remember me and my best bud just sitting there like OMG!
"the graphics are so smooth!'
Good times
saturn was the best at that point i didn't care for anything else
Yeah me2
What made VF so good was the resolution it ran on the Saturn. 704x480 resolution
Seeing daytona usa for the first time in the arcades was jaw dropping, stunning, literaly. The out of this world graphic, sound, gameplay, damn... I am glad i ecperienced gaming from the 80s. 80-2000, Magical time that will not return.
I went to arcade every couple of weeks to see what’s new. When i saw Daytona i almost cried. When i saw Sega Rally i said now nothing after this will impress me. I new that the next step was photorealism.
every time is magical as long as you can enjoy life. Also i think you got retro glasses on, i expierenced that to but things like internet-gaming seems more magical to me then early arcades
Sega Park here in the UK was where I saw and played all the latest Sega Arcade games as a kid 🙂
I first played it in an Arcade in London when I was 10 and I couldn't believe what I was seeing, unforgettable moment.
Looking back now evaluating the hardware the Sega model 2 was truly a beast. Just compare it to the Capcom play system 2 that was released in the same year
Sega really needs to release these arcade hits in a collection. Or just individually. Just render them in 1080p and release it everywhere.
a release for sega ages for the switch would be cool
That sounds like common sense? Get out of here!
Same, I also wish the the Virtua Cop games would get VR support and the ability to use the Aim controller.
To bad Sega hates money
Sega's making that Tokyo arcade money so I don't think they're going to do it!
I remember getting a lot of these AM2 games. Everyone thought I was crazy for picking the Saturn over the PS1, but I loved them, even Daytona USA. My brother and I not only unlocked the Horse, but also the "Horse 2" (where you had to win a 99 lap endurance race with the horse to unlock a mama horse + her foal).
One of my favourite channels on UA-cam at the moment.
Thanks dude. Appreciate you letting me know you enjoy the content.
I was thrilled to find this SegaLordX channel a few years ago. He does well produced, honest reviews and retrospectives. A fanboy, but an honest one; if a port or other title just plain sucked, he says so! So many just over praise crusty games. I’m guessing they want to win awards by kissing SEGA’s boots. SegaLordX maintains the most important aspect of any reviewer: integrity. Thanks SLX! I found and subscribed to your channel within my first 3 subs! Thank you for not being or acting like so many awful reviewers!
@@sideswipe1261 absolutely spot on. Love his videos!
They should’ve just put all that shit on the Dreamcast. Like several arcade comps.
A treasure trove of stuff here. It should be on everything.
All of these model 2 games should have been on the dreamcast.
@@SegaLordX I can understand why some of them didn't come due to not having the mass appeal of some of the more popular games
Dreamcast should of released a collection of those games on 1 disc on its early release
Dreamcast should of released a collection of those games on 1 disc on its early release
This channel is the reason why I finally bought a Saturn. And I was born in ‘03
Definitely bizarre that Waverunner didn't see the Saturn or even Dreamcast. Wait, that was Sega during its pinnacle of mistakes. It makes sense. 😔
Wave Runner without a release in 2018 is still a joke.
@@SegaLordX Could have been a nice series. I loved it in the arcade.
I remember buying my first Saturn from some guy who was selling some new ones in the For Sale section of the local newspaper and taking the bus to get it. When I got home I was blown away by Virtua Fighter Remix, especially by the soundtrack.
Being a big fan of Virtual-On, I got two of the twin stick controllers. I would end up getting a couple for the Dreamcast game as well.
What's also really awesome about Sega Rally on Saturn is that it had a 2-player split screen mode! Just crazy!
HolyMonk777 *It’s an amazing machine dude!* ⭐️
Another gem of a video!!! It's like the Sega Aracde Holy Trinity for me Virtua Fighter 2, Daytona USA, and Virtua Cop. I remember when they put all 3 in a bundle with the Saturn. Crazy good value at the time. Had a blast playing these at the arcade and at home and I don't really remember being disappointed with the Daytona point, at the time I guess I expected that the home ports would be different, sometimes almost entirely different games. I had fun with it. It wasn't till Dreamcast do i remember the homeports besting or being on par with arcade releases, which in hindsight was a blessing and a curse.
I don't believe that many people could cover this topic as well executed and as thorough as you did. Wobderful job.
I still make mistakes. Covering so much by yourself often means I will sometimes trust my memory. Comes back to bite me in the ass sometimes.
As a guy who was on Nintendo's side of the console wars back in the day, I feel a tinge of sadness seeing Sega end up how it did despite all its talents and potential.
Indy 500 in the arcade with the race car cockpits was all kinds of awesome. I truly miss Sega City arcades
Everything about the arcade is missed. When I find one now it's like a hollow shell of ticket prize games and hunting simulators.
As a Saturn kid is where my love for mech games started. Virtual On and Bulk Slash were both fantastic. And absolutely right about the twin sticks, the peripherals changed the experiences possible with the Saturn. The more you invested in it the more it gave back.
What a great video! Thanks sega Lord. I paid 400 bucks for my Saturn back when it released. I really enjoyed my Saturn even though PlayStation had more games. I had most of the am2 games along with panzer dragoon games and the like. Great memories.
Great video. Your side by side comparisons are awesome. I’m shocked that you don’t have more subscribers.
Love this channel all things Sega, glad your back
23:04 not gonna lie that green blood pissed me off
You could unlock changing the colors
I didn't regret getting my Saturn in 1998. So many good arcade ports and beautiful soundtracks across the board. The Model 2 was ahead of the game with it's graphics and sound presentation. Something I still marvel at more than 25 years later. Admittingly, as soon as Pokémon blew up and the disc laser died in it, I pretty much abandoned it for the N64 and GBC. It killed me, but it is what it is. But, the system has a special place in my heart. Always get teary-eyed when I bump those OSTs. So much nostalgia, particularly from the NiGHTS and Sega Rally OSTs.
What an awesome side by side love story between the arcade and Saturn. Love seeing stuff like this, makes me think about how I adjusted when I got an arcade game home.
I really like your channel, every year I have small glimpses of hope sega will make a comeback.
I just got an education! When I think about M2, it's always Virtua Fighter, Fighting Vipers, Daytona, and Sega Rally. Didn't know the M2 library was that big. Sounds like the video wasn't easy to make. This is what we come here for. Great work!
Daytona USA - dare I say that graphically it was so far ahead of its time that PCs and home consoles wouldn't be able to do this for about 10 years...
Oh man seeing Wave runner and Top Skater brings me back to my vacations as the beach and playing those games in the arcade.
I remember struggling to earn and save money Saturn games growing up. Lol, I must have had on beer goggles when it came to virtual cop 1 and House of the dead. Even so I love those games dearly and still have them on my shelf.
Did not know Dead or Alive saved Tecmo’s bacon. I imported it and could not believe the graphics on that one, and yes I giggled my brains out when I found the option screen to “enhance” the enhancements in that game.
Sega Lord-X, the quality of your presentations continues to grow, thanks for the hard work!
Another great video, we got to get this channel bigger! So much effort in your videos and you the only Sega youtuber with this much effort. As a sega fan I love it!
This one took some time. Glad you enjoyed it.
Oh God i forgot about that bike game i rented that so many time.
Oh my god, Top Skater! That was the shit. Absolutely exemplifies what I loved most about arcades. Just an experience you could never get at home.
Thank you so much for this channel. I love Sega and your content is brilliant.
Thank you for the message. :)
Only one of these days i’d find a video where where you feature virtual on. An amazing under rated games
Seeing the front engine rumble in Daytona still brings me right back to my childhood spent in the arcade's. Every game on this list needs to be brought back in some kind of collection, doesn't even need to be remastered.
The intro of your videos will never get old.
Great stuff brother! This isn't just nostalgia, it's history. A video on Sonic the Hedgehog games for the Saturn would be awesome too
I sincerely hope you'll do another video with Sega"s Model 3 hardware :) !!!
Dreamcast did such poor Model 3 ports.
I agree, might not be that interesting after all !
Exactly... just make the ports a footnote and focus on the glory of the arcade originals :) @@SegaLordX
@@SegaLordX Not exactly true, the difference is, with DC people expected the ports to be identical despite not knowing the technical differences between the Naomi and Model 3.
Sega rally 2 is graphically closer to the arcade than SR1 was on Saturn despite the ropey framerate, VF3 also was visually closer to model 3 than VF2 saturn was to the M2, factor in Virtua striker 2 and Fighting Vipers 2 which were also on model 3, and you definitely have an inspection worth looking at.
Apart from those 4, there were no other Model 3 ports to the Dreamcast (I could'a sworn House Of The Dead 2 was Naomi, if it wasn't there were 5), it wouldn't be a very long video, and those 4 are games EVERYONE knows about already, nothing new or rare. A video on the games they never ported to anywhere, and possibly why they didn't, would be a much better idea.
Fantastic video. It was such an easy and enjoyable viewing experience. I tried to recall which Model 2 games were ported to the Saturn and came up with most of them -- I remembered Dead or Alive was among them. But I missed a few, and definitely didn't know some of the other games on the hardware that were not ported. The video does a good job of showing the highs and lows of Model 2 ports on the Saturn. Daytona is messy(but fun), as is Touring Car. But VF2, Sega Rally, Virtual On, and others are quite respectable, even impressive. It's amazing how good a job they did recreating Model 2 games with such a massive gap between the home and arcade hardware. Once again, excellent work.
I really wish Sega would make a Model 2 collection for modern systems. Many of these games are begging for a home release.
Virtua Cop series, VF2 and Sega Rally were my favorites among these ports.
Among those not ported, Gun Blade NY and Top Skater were greatly missed on Saturn for me.
Top Skater was an awesome arcade game. Remember spending coin after coin when they had it at our movie theatres in the mid-late-90s.
Motor raid will soon be playable on sega's up coming Judge Eyes which will be released in Japan on December 13th.
Im glad Motor Raid is coming to home consoles in some form as an arcade game in the upcoming Project Judge for PS4.
If the Saturn had a cut down version of the Model 2 board... the history of games running on it could have been different.
16:49 I love that tune so much! ("Albatross Cliff Reef" from Hang-On GP) It's one of my favourite video game tunes of all.
Holy shit that m2 graphics is crazy! It's 1993 ? Looks cool even on n64 hardware
And for me as a 1992 born kid, Nintendo gives no allows light guns for N64 just annoys me.
I just play the Xbox360 port of Daytona USA on Xbox One X on backwards compatibility.
Its the most faithful port of the arcade game.
"Titan of arcade goodness" - I see what you did there!
It seemed kind of hit and miss with these ports. Some were great and others didn't even come close to the arcade. I have played my fair share of model 2 arcades and they still hold up well even to this day.
This video is talking about the Sega model 2.
The thumbnail shows Virtua Fighter 2.
This video was uploaded 2 years ago.
Seeing all these titles that were never released on Saturn or Dreamcast home systems is depressing its not even like the original games have been saved or archived they are now just gone
Love when u describe frame rates as buttery smooth
It's funny, I loved Sky Target and Sega Touring Car Championship. STCC took a while to get used to, but once I got the physics I can actually finish it. I love the music of both. And I used the normal controller.
I had house of the dead for Saturn. I remember going to electronics boutique and preordering it and it kept getting pushed back then finally it came
Great video! Didn't even know that the differences between the Sega Model 2 and the Sega Saturn have been this huge.
If my memory serves me well Virtua Fighter 2 on the Saturn was the first arcade to home console port that was 60fps! The background took a visual hit but other than that this was one of the best AM2 to Saturn ports that I didn't think was possible! Go Sega!!
*SEGA RALLY and Virtual Fighter 2 are amazing magical programming and pure FUN* ⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️
Oh hells yeah, I can recall when I first played Daytona USA. On my kitchen TV on my first ever console - the Sega Saturn. Ahhh, the memories. You're a beast Sega Lord X. Love your content.
Virtua cop was great both in arcade and on Saturn! When I bought my Saturn I picked up virtua fighter 2 and virtua cop, an extra of the light guns and an extra controller, man me and my room mate played both mostly virtua cop four many hours! Long live the good times! And long live Sega!
Model 2 years I was in 5th-6th grade, so I played the absolute hell out of some of these games, and really shaped my lifetime view of what Sega was all about. Fantastic stuff. Getting the home ports was exciting, and in general we were okay with the visual quality hit since the gameplay usually remained good. Great years! Thanks for the video SLX
Awesome vid man, thank you.
Thanks. Appreciate the comment. :)
Well, you've convinced me, Sega Lord X. The Saturn was actually pretty cool and now I am going to get one.
Bad idea
8:03 On the Saturn port, I thought it said "Castro!". But looking at the arcade original, I see it says "Castrol".
These games..both the Model 2 and Saturn, look INCREDIBLE in hi def...4k...whatever...they simply POP!
Makes me wonder and wish more games had looked as good as Last bronx did but just a little sooner. Sony was just such a juggernaut back then. A phenomenon. Nothing was gonna slow them down. Nothing. For me, only a good Sonic game would have peaked my interest enough to even consider a Saturn. I realize now however, how much HEART that little fat black box has inside.
Excellent, informative and most importantly entertaining. Thanks
Motor raid must have had a europe realese, i played it in a cinema at Lille in france, i actually beat the guy that was installing the arcade cabinet(actually a twin cabinet, but not the one you find on google like two modified bike game cabinets linked,a modification), he claimed to be "france champion" lol, and i was 8, and he was mad at me when i beat him(on the exact map showed in the video, first circuit of the game) ... He wanted a rematch but my dad dragged me away from him, ha memories... The arcade cabinet was removed after only weeks, idk why it was really fun if you ask me, but this game will stay in my memories for ever.
Man, another OUTSTANDING video.
Awesome video. Appreciate all of your hard work. Thank you sir.
Excellent video! Great insight too. I bought the Gunblade NY and LA Machines Wii Compilation. Worth it.
Definitely. A lot of people don't realize that Gunblade NY and LA Machineguns are very similar games.
I was blown away that the Saturn could even come close to running any version of The House Of The Dead. I thought the Saturn port was astounding considering the hardware it was running on.
It’s so weird that they released a twinstick game and didn’t make the Dreamcast with a twinstick controller.
Great job. I knew about most model 2 games since I subscribed to Famitsu magazine back in the 90's. Keep up the good work!
I must say that Motor Raid was fun. I had the chance to play it on its bike cabinet during summer of 2000 in England.
Excellent video! You really do some great research for your content. Thanks for this amazing channel.
The Model 2 hardware is just a highly memorable arcade platform with games that had me hooked as a kid, and even today. From playing Daytona in the sports bar to Wave Runner in Chuck E. Cheese, and House of the Dead 1 at various places. A shame many of the games haven't received proper home ports due to either the source code being lost or licensing issues. I say the exact same about Model 3 and NAOMI. Man I miss old Sega.
I've had so much fun with Sonic the Fighters on my GameCube
Great video man thank you. Launching Sega Rally on my home TV at the age of 13 was the greatest day of my life :) I've chosen this console over PS1 and never regretted that decision. Sega Rally, Virtual On, Panzer Dragoon Zwei, Figters Megamix, VF2, Command&Conquer were trully amazing and deliver unforgetable memories.
Def need a model 3 Naomi and dreamcast video now
Gun Blades New York, I spent so much money in the arcades on that game. It's a classic.
What a supreme episode! Kudos for you, mate. Keep the good work.
Good job with the story! Motor Raid did make it to Denmark, where i tried a 4P sitdown.
Thanks to Mednafen, I've been getting caught up on some of these games, and I gotta say Virtua Cop 1&2 play amazingly well, even if you're just using the control pad. The reticle is VERY responsive.
now this is quality content
I literally played this and panzer dragoon for a year after I bought my Saturn when it came out. What a wonderful game this is. And one of my favorite channels on UA-cam by the way
Great video as always. I guess one can question why Sega focused too much on newer arcade games for the Saturn rather some of its killer franchises. As a result we got a mixed bag of quality ports. Some better than others, some decent, almost all playable at least with a few exceptions. I personally love the original Daytona on the Saturn and prefer it. Its lower, faster point of view and galloping ass end of the car gives a kick ass sense of speed. Of course it has issues like pop up being the worst, but its fun as hell to play....its songs are bouncing around in my head now.lol thanks for the illustration and memories.
When it comes purely to gameplay, the original Daytona on Saturn ranks only behind Sega Rally for me. The 2 Circuit games look better but certainly don't play better.
These days we have the options to play Arcade perfect versions Sega Rally but I still love the Saturn port best. The graphics may not be as good as the Arcade but the extras are well worth playing I was playing the PS2 release and I notice the absence of the red book audio.
While the Model 2 arcade used to blow my mind in terms of the quality of the graphics back in the day these days with advancements in graphic fidelity you get to see how good the Sega Saturn ports really were as there's not much difference when you compare them side by side these days
Also I played Virtual on at home first I still prefer the controls of the Sega Saturn game above the Arcade and Dreamcast versions.
I like house of the dead 1 but the game was kinda scrappy and I prefer Hotd2 as it was the game I spent most time with plus it delivered on the promise of Arcade perfection.
I never thought of the Sega Saturn as polygon weak with the exception of transparency effects I always felt that Virtua Fighter 2's graphic fidelity matched anything I had seen on the PS1 even to date.
That's how I felt about Fighting Vipers. I'm excited that they made an xbox port, but it was a direct port of the arcade. The Sega Saturn version was more fun with all its extra modes.
The early through late 90s was such a magical time for arcade games! I honestly don't think we'll ever see it like that again?.. I miss it!
Sonic the Fighters was also released for the Gamecube as part of the "Sonic Gems Collection". I had always wished they released it for Saturn. I remember buying Sonic Gems just for Sonic the Fighters! lol
I just discovered your channel and OMG, there's a lot to see.
I remember the main problem with the Saturn is the price! 400, especially when people knew Sony's PS1 was going to be 200 or just under 300, can't remember the exact price, think it was 299. Anyway, people were waiting to see if the PS1 would be better since it'll be at least 100 cheaper. Also, another huge blow was Sega letting their loyal fans down from the Genesis/Megadrive era by releasing the 32X then ditching it for the Saturn. What a complete mess releasing 2 systems around he same timeline confusing the public to get the 32X or Saturn. It's a long story, but heard it was 2 groups competing against each other in Sega in-house.
Great vid!, brought back a lot of memories.!
I love the intelligent ports of Virtua Fighter 2 and the Saturn fighters. Excellent use of Saturns 2D focused hardware, more advanced Super Nintendo mode 7 2D style rotation for the arena so the fighters could be polygonal. This was also copied by Namco on PS1. It was a smart move. I wonder if they could've employed Saturns version of Mode 7 to their racing games to give the same faux 3D trick, and stacked 2D instead - it would've worked on CRT.
wow Top Skater! I totally forgot about that one! Damn, I loved playing that game when it first hit the arcades
Great game. Still can't believe Sega left it untouched.
right! It was kind of a big deal I recall, it was at alot of places at the time and usually had a few people around it so you had to wait in line. Its strange they didnt port it. Now I want to play it again so bad haha, great video!
You have more than earned this subscribe! Great info!!
Thanks bud. Appreciate it.
Happy to report I own all these games. :) I was always disappointed they didn't port some of the other M2 arcade games you mentioned like Indy 500 and Gunblade. I was equally upset when a lot of Model 3 games were omitted on the Dreamcast like The Lost World, Scud Race and Daytona 2 etc... But I'll always remember the day I got the Virtua Cop box set with the Stunner Gun. So many hours poured into that game...
I recently watched a doc about Last Bronx and evidently the Japanese regard it as highly as we regard Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat. For cultural reasons it never really saw the same success over here.
Jeremy Cline This is so cool to hear. Hearing that makes a lot of sense now, given that the Japanese version of Last Bronx was 2 discs. That game was stunning on Saturn. There’s a Digital Foundry Retro video on Panzer Dragoon where they mention how the infinite planes, where were created with the Saturn’s VDP2, simply weren’t possible on the PS-One. They used the infinite planes in Last Bronx quite a few times. The best example is the car garage. The animation was flawless and it ran in the Saturn’s high res mode at a very consistent 60fps.
In my humble opinion, it surpasses the excellent Virtua Fighter 2 port because it uses more of the Saturn’s capabilities. Both the VDP 1 and 2 are used heavily, and the weapon effects are incredible. The characters each have a processor, so they look mostly solid. Red Eye looks so fluid, his polygon construction doesn’t have the heavy shoulder feel that Leon in Virtua Fighter has, which isn’t present in the arcade version of Virtua Fighter 2. Jacky is another example. In the arcade he has normal shoulders, on the Saturn version, which is stunning, his shoulders are massive and stand out. Last Bronx has Toru Kurosawa in a purple suit. He’s lean and looks very close to the arcade version. I’m sad that it didn’t get more love.
Soul Blade on PS-One looked great, and some of the back drops were 3D, but overall, it didn’t look as sharp, or as clean as Last Bronx, though I prefer the weapon tracer effects in Soul Blade on PS-One.
Sorry for the long response. I’ve been trying to work on that, and failed badly. Life is crazy right now, so I wish you well, and I wish you and your loved ones good health.
Your content is TOP NOTCH! Thanks!
You did a really good job syncing up the video on these. That must have taken some real effort.
It was time consuming. You'd think you could just start them at the same point, but little differences are everywhere in timing that throw everything off.
Virtua On:Road Rash Edition, AWESOME!
This is really great content right here. Keep it up!
I was really happy to see this episode to the end as I forgot that I did not see it to the full ealier. I was thinking that oh flight stick and quick reactions could be difficult for me, and there is a pattern one needs to learn step by step which can be difficult considering many of the games showing here seems to be intense.. some of the Arcade titles need balance in the gaming department as you said when cabinettes were like real ski or skateboard equipment, meaning not only a balanced mind set but physical balance to, since this is a difficult when being physically challanged I have experienced velocity and intensity in Learning how to play Space Harrier for the 32x, with a very handy Control Scheme, and step by step I am learning how to be patient and not to over react. especially that skiing game look nice, I do not live in a neigbour that has Arcade Machines, and the few I knew for in a near based town or so, I have Little or no experience of sitting in cabinettes but as you pointed out Skate board titles would have been good on Saturn, Saturn has easy to use Control Schemes and not too many buttons and a sensible direction bad, those who have no problem using sticks could handle the 3D controllers no doubt, and having the Skate Board genre in Full Control taking a basic set of gaming pads, velocity and a mild flow to frame in that splendour of game design would have branched out the interest of the genre as a whole, regardless of which type of gamer we are talking about.
Amazing video! Great job!!! You *must* do a video on Model 3 also even though I think there were even fewer home ports such as Sega Rally 2 on Dreamcast which was a disappointment (It should have looked like V-Rally 2--wide screen, 480p, 60fps--, but instead it was a mess).