oh man im down for this. People often forget DH tests at max level gearing. Things change at lower gear levels. His tier lists are the gold standard for how such lists should be done, it covers so SO many bases. Glad you are going over his list with your take, its actually interesting.
DH is a god but damn man, I said it in the video with confirmation bias... but I'm seeing things I thought I knew already. I always go back to the DS nerf not applying correctly. I felt that with one of my (very bad) builds but then I see him ranking what I thought I saw on feel. We *need* to bring back map times and logging them. That's the only way to get this in line. Data, data, data.
I've spoken with some elite d2 players and they told me that dh's lists should be taken with a pinch of salt. Think about it, it takes most of us a good few months or entire season to really understand the nuances of a build and optimise it, so it's just not possible for him to fully rank all builds so accurately
Also, he simply cannot accurately predict how all the patch changes will impact all the builds. Nova sorc is suddenly S++ tier for mapping cause a a couple of tweaks to sorc? I highly doubt it. Nova sorc still needs infinity, and playing her in hc without some tankiness and cta on swap is just death, so you can't expect to dive in to maps without some serious farming
Yea discord hates his work bc it doesn’t min max to the level they do it, but it makes sense that opinions change for every level of the game in terms of hours invested
@Christoff070 I would push back on nova "suddenly" being S++ Tier. It's been very fast for many seasons; it was fast when i played it S4 and DH has had it as some sort of S tier that whole time. The energy shield, teleport, and Ormus buffs are all pretty big. And as we know, DH's Tier list is based on end game gear, so your criticism about it costing a bunch to get started is somewhat irrelevant given his metrics.
Gold standard for a reaction video. 1. Gave DH credit, praise and promotion. 2. Added your own content with the geopolitics analogy. 3. Discussed the source material with interesting commentary.
No tier list should be gone off 100%. That said DH's tier list is an amazing resource. Use it if you want to but all the player QQ is a bit much. If you disagree that's great do your thing. Best off to watch them all and come to your own conclusion.
Bingo, which is our recommendation. But we wanted to try and help the people who might read this list too quickly and jump into things they don't get. DH is a master and our best resource, but we are legitimately, trying to help.
hey man I gotta roll with what the people like. My recommendation is go out and use you tube as a resource. Look up geopolitics because even if you don't know what's going on, the exercise is worth your brain power.
I have never been able to get plugy to work or I would try it myself.. But id love to see someone try a summon pally with eternity, alma negra, and metal grid. Eternity really doesn’t look to be a bad weapon whatsoever, and it would almost be just a normal spec zeal build jousting into packs with pally aura juiced revives
WC is always a good starter but I have not played it enough to comment on it. The VERY limited testing I did in past seasons, my only complaint with it as a mapper is the range of the physical nova. I'm sure its just fine with an enigma.
also curious to see Wind druid down to B. wasnt that S tier last season? i dont see any nerfs to it in the patch notes and it was incredibly good. Also i largely test and prefer your methodology of testing. I dont see a lot of value (for me personally) in testing min maxed gear when i wont be playing with that gear 90% of the time.
I played it two seasons ago and got my 163 fcr, level 50 twisters and didn't think I was anywhere near as fast as some of the sorc builds I had the seasons before and I was wondering what I was missing when he had it as S+ last season. Druid's 163 fcr is 10 frames compared to sorc's 200 being 7 frames, so you're losing a full cast per second which is huge. Wind being dropped back into the above average but not insane portion of the list seems right. It has the issue of only dealing damage in a moderate size cone in front of you instead of the whole screen and normally not single tapping everything either.
@@Shadowlink137 Wind Druid is S+ because it can get up and running a majority of content on a much smaller budget than your 200fcr nova sorc. It doesnt need infinity, it doesnt need enigma, it doesnt need as hard to get FCR pieces. It has great AoE, great mobility, decent tankiness, great single target, and can get up and running far earlier than most builds. And it had recently gotten a damage buff which was silly. That is why it deserved its S+.
One thing Im totally disagree is the holy bolt is still way more stronger than what the list says, because you can adding damage with holy nova. That damage is buffing the holy bolt/FoH a lot.
well that's then point right? DH is doing good work here, but there needs to be some kind of mid-tier analysis but that kind of work is just insane for a mod like PD2. We're trying (and failing) to do that. Ask Kordesh btw, who is has run holy nova/bolt builds into the ground for more on this.
As someone who has pushed holy bolt very far, the problem isn't the damage, it's the clear speed. You have to tackle mobility, be it charge, vigor, or enigma. Other than that, the skill itself doesn't instantly wipe out screens. It's incredibly safe, easy to play and fun gearing progression. Fortifying the map imho is very beneficial but still you won't be blasting tier 3s in sub 10 minutes hence Dark Humility's lower grade.
@@KordeshGaming Thats true though, but at the same time, the speed is not that bad and the budget level is probably top tier. Again, you are right about the time. And the test for holy bolt is not really optimized imo.
i don't understand how he could put meteor from A- to C- when meteor itself had zero changes and the sorceress got buffed in terms of tele and energy shield??? and he doesn't really explain why its lower...
oh man im down for this. People often forget DH tests at max level gearing. Things change at lower gear levels. His tier lists are the gold standard for how such lists should be done, it covers so SO many bases. Glad you are going over his list with your take, its actually interesting.
DH is a god but damn man, I said it in the video with confirmation bias... but I'm seeing things I thought I knew already. I always go back to the DS nerf not applying correctly. I felt that with one of my (very bad) builds but then I see him ranking what I thought I saw on feel. We *need* to bring back map times and logging them. That's the only way to get this in line. Data, data, data.
I've spoken with some elite d2 players and they told me that dh's lists should be taken with a pinch of salt. Think about it, it takes most of us a good few months or entire season to really understand the nuances of a build and optimise it, so it's just not possible for him to fully rank all builds so accurately
Also, he simply cannot accurately predict how all the patch changes will impact all the builds. Nova sorc is suddenly S++ tier for mapping cause a a couple of tweaks to sorc? I highly doubt it. Nova sorc still needs infinity, and playing her in hc without some tankiness and cta on swap is just death, so you can't expect to dive in to maps without some serious farming
Yea discord hates his work bc it doesn’t min max to the level they do it, but it makes sense that opinions change for every level of the game in terms of hours invested
@Christoff070 I would push back on nova "suddenly" being S++ Tier. It's been very fast for many seasons; it was fast when i played it S4 and DH has had it as some sort of S tier that whole time. The energy shield, teleport, and Ormus buffs are all pretty big. And as we know, DH's Tier list is based on end game gear, so your criticism about it costing a bunch to get started is somewhat irrelevant given his metrics.
Gold standard for a reaction video.
1. Gave DH credit, praise and promotion.
2. Added your own content with the geopolitics analogy.
3. Discussed the source material with interesting commentary.
Yapping in yapp city, get to the reaction already
Completly oblivious, leveling as sacrafice 2h holy sword:
Holy diver! You've been gone too long in the midnight sea
Commenting for the second coming of ChugthatEstus
Are you a lawyer?
yeah but not a good one
Howdy counselor! Comments for the algo 😊
About the question on auras. I belive the two center arrows of multishot will carry aura dmg, not the rest of arrows.
awesome just what I wanted politics
Appreciate the vid, thanks wappn8r for chiming in
No tier list should be gone off 100%. That said DH's tier list is an amazing resource. Use it if you want to but all the player QQ is a bit much. If you disagree that's great do your thing. Best off to watch them all and come to your own conclusion.
Bingo, which is our recommendation. But we wanted to try and help the people who might read this list too quickly and jump into things they don't get. DH is a master and our best resource, but we are legitimately, trying to help.
@@Lawlsuit Agree with you 100%.
Talking politics and pD2 is so weird. I like it.
I never know what you’re talking about because I’m a simpleton but I’m still here for it.
hey man I gotta roll with what the people like. My recommendation is go out and use you tube as a resource. Look up geopolitics because even if you don't know what's going on, the exercise is worth your brain power.
@@Lawlsuit Peter Zayan? How do you spell that? Sounds interesting. Name said at 1:56
@@amadeuszzemierowski8662 www.youtube.com/@ZeihanonGeopolitics Peter Zeihan
I have never been able to get plugy to work or I would try it myself.. But id love to see someone try a summon pally with eternity, alma negra, and metal grid. Eternity really doesn’t look to be a bad weapon whatsoever, and it would almost be just a normal spec zeal build jousting into packs with pally aura juiced revives
I'm sorry if this is off topic but... what is your BGM? Is it Yoko Kanno?
Love this. More Pd2 content and reactions to pd2 content is a plus
Professional yapper
Your thoughts on WC barb?, it rocked in the crafters league. Always did orb dorc, gonna see the WC, I feel its a fair spot in this list😊
WC is always a good starter but I have not played it enough to comment on it. The VERY limited testing I did in past seasons, my only complaint with it as a mapper is the range of the physical nova. I'm sure its just fine with an enigma.
@@Lawlsuit yeah, it crushes, but is a bit slow. Hopefully I can get an eni sometime this season
also curious to see Wind druid down to B. wasnt that S tier last season? i dont see any nerfs to it in the patch notes and it was incredibly good. Also i largely test and prefer your methodology of testing. I dont see a lot of value (for me personally) in testing min maxed gear when i wont be playing with that gear 90% of the time.
I played it two seasons ago and got my 163 fcr, level 50 twisters and didn't think I was anywhere near as fast as some of the sorc builds I had the seasons before and I was wondering what I was missing when he had it as S+ last season. Druid's 163 fcr is 10 frames compared to sorc's 200 being 7 frames, so you're losing a full cast per second which is huge. Wind being dropped back into the above average but not insane portion of the list seems right.
It has the issue of only dealing damage in a moderate size cone in front of you instead of the whole screen and normally not single tapping everything either.
@@Shadowlink137 Wind Druid is S+ because it can get up and running a majority of content on a much smaller budget than your 200fcr nova sorc. It doesnt need infinity, it doesnt need enigma, it doesnt need as hard to get FCR pieces. It has great AoE, great mobility, decent tankiness, great single target, and can get up and running far earlier than most builds. And it had recently gotten a damage buff which was silly. That is why it deserved its S+.
can you cut out the blade dance talk parts thanks.
secrets out on that one already
Anyway I could get a link to these?
www.youtube.com/@darkhumility4915
One thing Im totally disagree is the holy bolt is still way more stronger than what the list says, because you can adding damage with holy nova. That damage is buffing the holy bolt/FoH a lot.
well that's then point right? DH is doing good work here, but there needs to be some kind of mid-tier analysis but that kind of work is just insane for a mod like PD2. We're trying (and failing) to do that. Ask Kordesh btw, who is has run holy nova/bolt builds into the ground for more on this.
Right, there just isnt enough time in the closed beta to do all the testing required for all these builds for both mid tier and max tier gearing.
As someone who has pushed holy bolt very far, the problem isn't the damage, it's the clear speed. You have to tackle mobility, be it charge, vigor, or enigma. Other than that, the skill itself doesn't instantly wipe out screens. It's incredibly safe, easy to play and fun gearing progression. Fortifying the map imho is very beneficial but still you won't be blasting tier 3s in sub 10 minutes hence Dark Humility's lower grade.
@@KordeshGaming Thats true though, but at the same time, the speed is not that bad and the budget level is probably top tier. Again, you are right about the time. And the test for holy bolt is not really optimized imo.
Good content! Do you have a link to that other tier list?
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-3YSFUmA5qGPA8HCSvcmfRIf3Up2WVDTdXRmorMNd0o/htmlview
@@Lawlsuit ty
i don't understand how he could put meteor from A- to C- when meteor itself had zero changes and the sorceress got buffed in terms of tele and energy shield??? and he doesn't really explain why its lower...
i understand now, because you can accurately count monster kills per minute