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Six Pack Attack! LJ Torana Vs Valiant R/T Chargers Incredible Battle
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- Опубліковано 3 гру 2022
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How good is this battle from Historic Touring Cars at the 2022 VHRR Historic Sandown event. The LJ Torana and Valiant Chargers absolutely going at it for position.
Brilliant Racing.
we al had our Aussie muscle car favourites back in the day - I love 'em all equally now 50 year down the track
This would have to be the ultimate battle, both 6cyl, both with tripple 2 barrel carbs and both the basic same power to weight ratio. This is where skill comes into it, congratulations to both of the drivers for knowing how to drive a race car 😎👍
Did you say same power to weight ratio
@@llewvirtue861 . Yes . He said basically the Same Power to Weight Ratio . Totally correct .
Hey there Mark Aylott . Did you work for Australia Post back in the Mid 80's ? In Sydney . Eastern Suburbs .
WTF no this is where the brakes come in 😂
Great to see racing at Sandown race course! Go Charger!
Not Sandown
Those were the days of proper touring car racing.
All gone now.
Far from it. Many original racecars from that era have returned in Historic Categories & as seen in the footage, Group N permits similar cars from that era to race. There are now thousands of these stunning old Australian cars out there racing even faster than they ever did when they were new. Contact your nearest circuit & go see 'em. You won't regret it. These guys go hard.
Back when it was about the cars, not the drivers.
So much better.
now when you look at the cars the entire car is very different to what you buy at the dealership, different chassis etc etc
im happy none of these classics were harmed
When racing wasn't just a silhouette !
MORE! MORE! MORE!
Y’all have been showing some amazing racing!
Thanks again,
Dennis (near Philadelphia, Pennsylvania USA)
Orange coupe is 1972 Holden LJ Torana with 202 ci inline 6banger powerplant built only here in Aust by GM.
Purple & Red coupes are locally built & unique to Aust 1971/72 VH Valiant Charger E38 or E49 with inline 265 ci 6banger.
We've raced these things here since the day they were born. Similar models were raced even earlier.
Look for 1971 HARDY FERODO 500 BATHURST here on YT & go from there.
We built really durable cars here & even our little sixes can put on a damn good show. Notice the small block V8 pony cars unable to keep up? Welcome to motor racing down under. Enjoy.
@@johnbrooks9523 Nice fill in 👍😉
@@johndavis7944
Seeing smallish Aussie 6 bangers munch up big bad bent 8 boat anchors in barges is my favouite thing.
1971. ford xy gt ho. 4sp t/loader, detroit locker, from factory, did 160mph.. the news real was doctored to 140, so 16 yr olds wouldnt line up to buy one.. holden vb commodores, weigh fk all, with a v8, if you open both doors, you can wobble the b piller,!, passed regs cos its ausie..plus, they run chev engines, not holden.
the 6 cyl toranas came with su carbs,,ill bet, these at bathurst had side draughts.. the chargers, had side draughts std. 6 pack r/t.
Thanks for uploading mate, absolutely brutal. You shall not pass!
So much enjoyable to watch than V8 stupidcars
Too true...I reckon SC followers will very soon become cheesed off watching Yank tanks circling and will go back to watching the historic category.
Great stuff! I maintain my view, the Charger is the most sexy car ever made!
Was little more than a scaled down Dodge Charger either the hemi or 440 cube motors Aussie charger failed in two major places No V8 until too late production and the first ones only had a 3 speed box again this wasn't corrected to a 4 speed until very late in production It could have been a rival to the Apx toranas and Ford GTHO if done properly
@@michaelnaisbitt7926 it had nothing design wise from a Dodge Charger, it was a uniquely Aussie Coupe. Was absolutely the "sexiest" Aussie Muscle car, just needed to be a 340 6 pack 4 speed to take over the Power title as well
@@michaelnaisbitt7926 Not true at all. The design of the Valiant Charger has literally nothing to do with the American Dodge Charger.
It is an Australian designed fastback coupe version of the new-at-the-time VH Valiant with the wheelbase shortened by about 6".
Also, you could indeed Valiant Charger with a 318ci V8 as soon as they debuted in 1971, they just didn't race them with a V8.
Most buyers opted for the 265ci hemi version since the 318ci V8 only offered an additional 25hp over the base 265 Hemi's impressive 205hp (which was still a whopping 70hp more than a Holden 202 red motor)
The 4spd single-rail gearbox was available in 1972. Just one year from the Charger's 1971 debut.
@@jacksonjdr94
Both Chrysler Australia & GMH committed to building high performance 6 cylinder cars. Both allocated budgets to do so. GMH was a very well established giant in the local industry and their best bread winners were little red motor 6 packs. Chrysler kicked GMH pretty hard in the shins when they unleashed this contageous thing called "Charger". This put a giant dent in the GMH sales charts. It was widely accepted at the time that if you won on Sunday, you could sell on Monday & a mad power race ensued. It really was MAD because both Chrysler & GMH were competing on race tracks with sixes against Ford's great clanking mechanical monster 351 V8/Top Loader Close Ratio 4 Speed/9" Detroit Locker Diff XY GTHO Falcon that could pull a house off it's stumps.
The big difference between the Chrysler Race Program & the GMH Program was BUDGET! Chrysler Aust would not afford a heavy duty 4 Speed & had no such an animal in their local parts bin. All VH Vals fitted with the locally built 318 were constricted by the TorqueFlyte 3 Speed Automatic. Chrysler was committed to flogging their socalled "Hemi 6" and they refused to lash out on a decent gearbox. So, they elected to race their 6 bangers from outset with a dopey 3 Speed. Chrysler's budget was so tightwad, they sold the only cars I have ever seen with disc brakes and NO FUKKING BRAKE BOOSTER! Crazy shit! To make life even harder, the Hemi 6 was a HEAVY 6 & Hemi 6 Vals were notorious for breaking their right side frame rails alongside the steering box which was bloody hard to fix. I know!... I had to fix them! Poor old Valiant owners copped it in the arse even further when Chrysler Australia's wacky torsion bar front ends destroyed their feeble bushes repeatedly & replacing them often was painful too... AND EXPENSIVE! We ended up with clapped out Valiants everywhere all over Australia with the front wheels laid over and pointing in crazy directions, everywhere but straight ahead & they clobbered everything in sight as they wandered all over the road DANGEROUSLY! They destroyed their tyres instantly & goobers just kept on getting shit retreads thrown on 'em. This really helped... NOT! They were cheap to buy, but failed in service, could not be repaired effectively & were expensive to fix. By the early 1980s you couldn't give an old Valiant away, Chrysler's weak attempts at addressing the problems with their product were widely known, their resale value was dismal & Australia's motoring public shied away from them... Scratch one half hearted local vehicle manufacturer. You don't see old Vals everywhere anymore because they were turds of things & we dumped them. Hundreds of thousands of them went to the tip for the reasons described above.
As for their racing program...
That was always too little too late. They refused to employ a guru like Harry Firth & they just dumped their program in Ellis' lap. Ellis was a really nice guy & quite capable but he was no match for a wily old tuning specialist like Harry. Harry wasn't just trying to beat Chrysler, he'd been sacked by Ford, had the shits with Ford & was highly motivated to teach Ford a lesson they'd never forget even if he only had piddly little 6 cylinder Toranas to play with. Harry was on a mission to show Ford Australia up as a pack of apes with a barge for a product & HE KNEW EXACTLY HOW TO DO IT! Chrysler Aust blundered into this open warfare scenario on our race tracks & they severely underestimated Harry Firth. Early XU-1s made 160BHP & came from day one with a feeble Opel 4Speed box & hopeless 10 spline axles in a dismal BANGO LSD diff. By August 1973 Harry had found 240BHP plus in a 202 & had locally made Aussie 4 Speeds with at least 4 different spreads of ratios plus some trick boxes built by Pete Hollinger. He'd grafted Detriot Locker hemispheres & 2.78 crown & pinnion sets into the dear old BANGOS & he'd developed 23 spline axles which carried over to the L34 which was also Harry's baby. Harry was absolutely hellbent on building a weapon he could use to shoot Ford Australia in the head at Bathurst & Sandown & poor old Ellis got himself tossed into the crossfire with too tight a budget. You can probably tell... I'm no Furd fan. I actually love old Valiants & I'd sooner hunt in a Valiant than lumber around in any fat turd Falcon. Sadly, Chrysler Aust NEVER got their race program sorted enough to out pace Harry's HDT, because Harry could turn a dinky toy Torana into a HO beater & Chrysler got shot to shit in the process! This is a truly unfortunate set of circumstances for everyone who hoped and prayed for some good results for Valiants at Sandown, Surfers & Bathurst int the Manfacturers Championship races which were all enduros. Harry taught Brock how to keep a piddly little LJ XU-1 together & at the same time go like stink for up to a THOUSAND Ks. He & Brock perfected this & went on to win Bathurst against Ford & Moff & the GTHO PHASE 111 with a harmless looking 202 Torana and, of course, this meant the underfunded Valiant Chargers got clobbered in the process. By the time Chrysler woke up & forked out for a 4 Speed Single Rail in their E49, Holden, Firth & Brock & Ford Aust had disappeared into the distance. GMH & Ford wanted to kill each other & they didn't give a rat's arse about anyone who got in the way!
I've heard sixty million morons harp on about how you don't need a 4Speed behind a 265. THAT'S TRUE!. . . for about 5 minutes. You punish the fuck out of a 265 for a THOUSAND Ks to compensate for a deficient junk 3 Speed box AND YOU WILL DESTROY YOUR ENGINE! It gets worse... With the introduction of Group C in 1973 all teams were permitted to use 9 inch & wider rims & slick tyres. Even the LJ s ran 9" rims in '73 & droves of them kept on competing SUCCESSFULLY for years after the release of the L34! When these big alloy wheels & sticky wide tyres were bolted onto Valstangs, those shit front end bushes chewed out instantly & the frame rails broke sooner because dumb arse Chrysler never corrected these problems properly. They just gave up & walked away. This was catastrophic for those of us who stood trackside, fingers crossed, jumping up & down like lunatics hoping a Val could get up & finish ahead of super smug Moffat with his irritating smirk & his ridiculous Canadian accent in his gas guzzling barge.
The Charger race program could have succeeded. The 265 in Group C tune could punch out well over 300BHP. The Borgy boxes & diffs were OK. The crippling factor was Chrysler Australia refused to adequately finance a potentially good product & they never adequately remedied really dumb design flaws in what could have been damn good cars.
In today's Group N Historic Race category, the rules permit the improvements Chrysler never fixed. You can run a massive belt driven external oil pump on the big ol' 265 and keep the bottom end alive. Today's Group N 265s are running super lightweight forged alloy pistons, aluminium rods, roller cams, wild tuned length pipes & 400+ HorsePower is on tap. When you prep the car, you cut the pathetic tin "CHASSIS RAILS" open & you reinforce them internally with a bloody great lump of box section steel to STOP THEM FROM SNAPPING LIKE BITS OF SHIT. You forget about feeding endless made to fail rubber bushes into tinpot control arms and make your own. This is why these amazing old Vals are now capable of giving the XU-1 lookalikes a damn good hiding. But, a fully sorted 202 with 330 BHP & with a tweaked L34 Aussie 4 Speed in a Torana weighing only a shade over a Thousand KGs is always likely to look after it's tyres a little better than a Val with a thumping great 265 truck engine hanging over it's front suspension.
Chargers have the horsepower now! A good Group N Valstang will outdrag an LJ Trarna with simple brute force in the early laps. But over any sort of distance, the lighter, more compact & more nimble LJ will usually still have usable rubber after the lead tipped arrow Valstang has turned it's tyres into shredded black rags. This makes for really entertaining racing. The Toranas only have to stay shiny side up for as long as it takes to hound the hell out of the Vals while the Vals eat their tyres... Then the Torana whistles by.
We're very, very lucky. Some of us were around when these crazy vicious battles first started between Chargers & Toranas in 1971. It is truly a gift that those battles have erupted all over again in such a big way in Group N Historic.
I'm absolutely rapt to see so many old Vals have hit our race tracks & the racing is fierce. There are races now with MORE CHARGERS on the grid than we ever had in the early '70s! THIS IS GOLDEN! Finally our dear old local product CHRYSLER VALIANT CHARGER IS FULLY SORTED & GOING GANGBUSTERS like they should have in the beginning! Chrysler Australia made a bloody mess of it & gave our Vals a very bad name. This caused hundreds of thousands of them to hit the shit tubs. The guys who race them now should be commended. They're putting on a GREAT SHOW & putting the Charger back on the map. The old 265 Charger was always a potential race winner. It never succeeded like it should have because the parent company was a pack of scabs who didn't fully understand Harry's attitude. Who would have thought a 202 Torana could EVER outrun A GTHO PHASE 111 at Bathurst? That's crazy shit!... Well, Harry made it happen & Chrysler Australia underestimated him. We ended up with mental fast LJ Toranas that won every bloody thing. Poor ol' Chrysler lost the battle & hid under a rock. It was red hot entertainment back then & it's red hot entertainment now. The Charger only needed a fair go. Group N has achieved this. Today's 265 Valstangs are awesome. Luckily they still sound the same.... Like a fifty foot hacksaw blade through a crumpled beer can. Great stuff!
GO THE SIXPACKS!
Them and the CH 2 door Chrysler Hardtops 😁
The little Torana that could!!
Best racing ever OLD SCHOOL
Go Charger 💪👍
Wowwww. I remember this race! That charger is boss.
Good to 71 Michael H on circuit one of the BEST Chargers out there
Cool thanks mate
Love this racing !
Thank you.
I thought the Torana got the short end of the stick a couple of times.
Race rule: first into the corner has the corner.
Thanks. I don't know the rules just like watching.@@jamesscammell7957
Those guys were throwing it down! Amazing racing!
Absolutely great 👍🏻🇺🇸
God I thought I watching an episode of Matlock Police there for a second!!
Hey Charger.
in Series production on a track like Warwick farm, 1 or 2 chargers were fast but ALL of the toranas were fast. I saw it live as a kid. Neither car was any match for a Camaro or Mustang. The Chargers were extremely loud even as stock E38 and E49 road cars could be heard around Liverpool in the 1970,s.
I was a regular at the Farm and if you look hard enough you will also find several Cooper S's (Morris that is) that were also competitive. As were some Lotus Cortinas, especially Jim McKeown.
This video has it all! Amazing, you need more subscribers! Pure racing! I will share ❤
Thanks Booch, we'd always welcome more subscribers to be supporting this racing that we're lucky enough to be part of capturing.
@@BlendLineTV no worries! Onward and upward in 2023 💪
@@codforlife
Even better... Grab your camera & a tripod & head trackside. These meetings are regular all over the place. The racing is spinetingling & you will have the time of your life.
I'd love to know what kind and capacity of engine each car had onboard. E49, 318,, 327 , 350 ? etc.
White Camaro? did VERY well not to clean up the Torana .
Impressive that there was minimal or no wheel lockup either. Retrofitted ABS or just good driver control?
@@parttimelaowai1771 . RACE Cars do not use ABS . Good control .
Bad ass💯.
They weren't called Charger for nothing.
I see one of them retired bellowing smoke and bits of metal. The Torana pestered the Val relentlessly, but was swatted in the end.
That's motor racing.
Great stuff Blendline.
Cheers 👍😀😉
The amazing part was seeing the charger corner the same as the torana and the torana keep up on the straights.
@@Joe-jd4pn . . . and all those American import V8 Muscle Cars that never caught either the Valstang or the Trarna. Kind of makes you wonder why anyone would build a replica US Muscle Car & run the risk of getting chewed out by an Aussie 6 Banger?
Top shelf 202s in Group N are now churning out a reliable 330BHP. 265 HEMIs are making over 400. And these lighter 6 cylinder cars are kinder to brakes & suspension. This is why the Valstangs & Trarnas eventually wear down their Heavier V8 opposition towards the end of these sprint races. With today's technology shoehorned into a 202, the days of Hemi Sixes outrunning LJs on longer straights are all but over. Some competitors sink 150K into damn quick Valstangs & then get the shits when they can't shake off a teency LJ. This drives some of 'em insane. On the last lap before the Val crunched the LJ, you could see the LJ actually outrun the Val on the main straight. LJ was quicker at that stage & this is infuriating for someone in a bigger more powerful car. Val was always going to turn in. Someone had to blink. Neither did & bigger car usually makes bigger impact on littler car.
10 out of 10 to all the people who've picked up the Valiant ball lately & run with it in Group N. In theory, the 265 should work. History records that it very rarely pans out that way. Getting Valiants up to scratch & out on race tracks is hard work. Seeing them competing with LJs is awesome. Hopefully this can continue. It is the greatest entertainment on Earth.
@@johnbrooks9523 I owned and still own an E38 and my brother before he died owned an XU1. It was always the same story at the lights. Both would take off with a scream. Who ever poped the clutch best got off the mark better. The the long 2nd gear of the E38 slowly walked away from the XU1. Then the inevitable corner and he would just glide past. I now have a 4 speed in the Val and my brothers XU1 was stolen and burnt out in Kalgoolie many years ago.
@@Joe-jd4pn
You can always refit an old 3 speed to quieten down those who carry on about cars being perfectly original. I recommend setting up a T5 behind your 265. That'll give you a nice spread of ratios plus a handy overdrive. To quicken the ol' E38 up through all forward gears toss in a 3.7 or 3.9:1 crown & pinnion. The T5 is a very sweet thing & it takes a ton of stress off your engine. You'll go quicker, save on fuel & your engine will last longer. I grew up in 6Pack Valiants. Even my nextdoor neighbour had a Vitamin C E37. A close friend had a Magenta E37 with a GM Blower on the 265 6Pack. My Mum had a hotted up AP5 which we traded on a mint VC in 1973. I was surrounded by bloody Valiants as a kid because they were practical, fairly punchy, damn cheap & everywhere! I spent dozens of weekends at Lakeside QLD in the '80s & the '90s & I was there when Lloyd Bax fronted with a very quick Vitamin C E38 replica in 1992. That car hung around for many years & at one stage ran some entire seasons with Jon English aboard. No LJ could stay with it, but it was fragile. It was making around 380BHP & that kind of stress caused endless breakages. It was a shame to see it AND HEAR IT blast down Lakeside's main straight leaving Toranas & EHs for dead for several laps, but then towards the end of a race, no more Charger & the LJs would win through better reliability. It was a truly stunning thing & I spent many hours in the Lakeside pit area with the car's owner & the driver, English discussing the virtues & headaches of running that car. It was really a very special car. At one point, they estimated the cost to date of building 265s, racing them & recovering from blow ups had exceeded the 90K mark & they just couldn't afford to do it anymore. This was over 25 years ago in Group N where sponsorship was tabboo. At about the same time, Brad & Cameron Tilley started arriving at Lakeside's annual Historic meets with two of their Valiants... An SV1 & a 66 (VC) Barracuda. I'd never seen a Cuda before & that was pretty special. I recommend calling in on those Tilleys. They have invested more in developing & campaigning 6Pack Valiants than any other entity in this galaxy. They found absolutely every single speck of horsepower findable in a Hemi 6 (on carburettors) AND THEY CURED THE HEARTBREAKING RELIABILITY ISSUES! The Tilleys have been Valiant mad for over 30 years that I know of & they have devoted a staggering fortune to racing both Slants & Hemis.
In a perfect world... We might one day assemble a full field of SIX CYLINDER GROUP N CARS at some race meetings. We know the 265 makes staggering torque compared to Holden's little 202, but the Holden has been very successful, has had massive development, is adored by countless enthusiasts & the minute a Holden gets beaten by a Valiant, the Holden crazies (like me) run straight back to our bases & find even more kooky ways to get our mental Holdens to go even faster! This cat & mouse game has been my life's work. I'm sick to death of seeing kit car Mustangs & Taiwanese replica Camaros with You Beaut Crate Motors swamping our Historic Race Categories. Gimme the old Vals over the imports anyday. Wealthy types can buy all the horsepower they like & hit our tracks. It takes real talent, endless tenacity, undying devotion & a ton of sheer ability to get our Sixes onto race tracks, running hard, breaking records, scaring the hell out of the jewel encrusted snots with their yank tank replicas & continually improving. Had Chrysler Australia sent their E38s into battle with 4 Speed gearboxes back in '71/'72, things would be a whole lot different now. Brock probably would not have got that first win & the entire history of Australian Motor Sport would likely have been tilted in an entirely different direction. Had Leo wiped the floor at Bathurst with E38s for two years in a row, we'd now be in a totally different world! Most enthusiasts cannot even imagine this concept. Us die hard Holden nuts would be nowhere now if Brock never won Bathurst with Holden's dinky little 6 Banger. Chrysler fans were pretty much robbed because Chrysler refused to toss in a few more bucks & get those bloody 4 Speed boxes in to secure the wins they desperately needed when they needed them. All this crap about the 3 Speeds being adequate is moronic. If it was even remotely true, why did they eventually relent & go 4 Sp with their E49?
Now consider this... Imagine the outcome if Holden had done the Valiant thing & fronted up in 1971/72 and '73 with only 3 Speed gearboxes?!!! This argument that the 3 Sp in the E37/E38s was sufficient is just plain dumb.
Holden enthusiasts were & still are very lucky, indeed. Things fell into place for us. Holden had a very smallish product & went racing against far more powerful opposition. Luckily for us, them pesky little red motors could take a stonkering amount of punishment & hang together against the odds.
To see Chargers racing again now is simply glorious! They always had the potential. Only a few tiny weak links kept them out of the winning circle back in the early days. Thankfully, we now have a whole new ball game, the Chargers are back after decades in the wilderness & the racing is exactly how it should always have been... Aussie 6Packs chewing the arses clean out of American socalled Muscle Cars.
Find an old T5 out of a later Ecotec V6 Commie (these later T5s have more durable synchos) or if money permits, a T5 from any 5.0L V8 Commie (these have SHORTER input shafts and mount closer to the engine & place the shift further forward). Set that T5 up with a short 3.7 or 3.9 Borgy back end & you'll transform that E38. You can always toss the old stuff back in later if need be. The shift in the T5 is supremely light, rapid & precise. They really are a fabulous box. I've had 4 T56 Tremecs. I find the T5 more suitable & much more affordable.
Go the SIXPACKS!
@@johnbrooks9523 Who needs the book. It's all here and edited too. I'll have to find something else for that $50 bigw card.
veo este tipo de carreras y me sigo quedando con tc
There's no replacement for displacement
Hey Charger
A good race. The Torana driver could handle his car well. Pity he spun out. I had a neighbour back in the 1970s who owned a Holden Torana just like that model in the race, same orange color too.
I miss my e49
I remember when I bought a vh valiant charger many years ago now he said it goes like a shower of sh..it. Now I still own 2😮
Great to watch the oldies slicing around the track , way more interesting than watching the "super cars" which imo by comparison is somewhat clinical and boring .
I had a couple of chargers in my day. Fully worked 265…yeehar. But the torana puts up good fight
We missed a factory V8 by that much :(
Imagine the xu1 v8 vs v8 charger vs phase 4
@@fugawiaus
Bob Jane had John Shepperd Built exactly that as a Sports Sedan out of an LC Coup & John McCormack did the same with a Charger... Funnily enough, he chose a Holden V8 for the Charger!
Both cars have stella histories & a quick search will find them.
@@johnbrooks9523 sounds good but I would have loved to see the factory cars going for it at Bathurst.
Yes, if Chrysler had chucked in the 340 in
similar tune (right heads, cam & Carb)to the HO's that would have been
interesting.
Hell, even a descent breathing 318 would have been a hoot.
Big bore, short stroke.
@@fugawiaus
We came close to seeing V8 LCs & LJs in Series Production Racing & had such weapons of mass destruction gone into mass production & made it into Group C, 5.0L XU-1s or XU-2s as some believe was the designation, would have turned the ATCC completely on it's head. The 308 even when confined to Group C specification and dual plane manifolding could easily punch out 400 BHP reliably all day from a compact, comparatively light weight & fairly economical power plant.
The thing is... We simply did not need the 308 to get an LC/LJ package competitive. The basic XU-1 platform was so overengineered, so robust & so durable it smashed ALL opposition even with the diminutive 6Banger donk. Bearing in mind, Chrysler Australia's standard engine on release here in Aust in the RV1 in 1962 was a 225 cubic inch engine & Ford had 250 CI donks in the late '60s in their XW Falcon range. Sadly these big dumb US designed "truck engines" were excessively bulky, way too heavy, didn't respond as well to very cheap & basic modification & even though quite a few Slant Valiants & Log Falcons hit our racing scene, they never ever enjoyed the dazzling success gained by the little Aussie Holden 6 which could punch out big numbers and still hang together without destroying front suspensions & brakes through idiotic cheap junk like crazy heavy cast iron inlet manifolds & water pumps causing a weight overload. Ford's later attempt at stuffing their 250 truck motor Cortinas was a hideous nightmare as those cars just came apart, collapsed & got nowhere fast. The Chrysler Hemi powered Centura program was similarly disastrous because the Hemi 6 was just such a great lump of an engine & it was proven time & again, that although the Hemi 6 could make 350 BHP, they almost invariably blew apart under that much stress. Sandown & Bathurst were both traditionally Endurance Races. Some hotrods could finish & win sprint races, but come Bathurst time & we soon saw what was genuinely good quality engineering. Holden won Bathurst with a comparatively small 202 cube motor up against 265 Hemi Chryslers & 351 Cleveland Falcons simply because the XU-1 overall package was more economical, kinder to it's tyres, brakes & suspension & Holden's piddly little 202 could churn out around 240BHP all day without spitting the dummy along with it's conrods.
Winning Bathurst with the little 6 was sensational in 1972. Had Harry fronted with V8 LJs & won easily, it would never have been so dramatic. The LJ XU-1 underdog got up & outran the big factory muscle cars that everyone raves about. This was a stupendous achievement & had the LJ had the bent 8 boat anchor under the bonnet at the time it would have been pretty much ho-hum. I laugh at these fully brainwashed GTHO disciples. If their you beaut great clanking 351 GTHO mechanical messiah monster is truly the big all time "GOD" of Australian Muscle Cars, well what the hell is the LJ since the LJ got up & beat the big barge at Bathurst?
I'd be in denial too if my huge tank got flogged up by a little 6 cylinder Torana. Delusion is a sweet thing for the deluded.
Even today, a Charger is seen in the footage blowing it's engine apart whilst trying to race a sorted LJ. As if that aint enough, the 2 Valiants tag team & hold up the Torana. The Torana hasn't fried it's brakes, hasn't ruined it's tyres, is chewing on the arse of the surviving Valiant, finally gets past & Valstang Boy promptly belts little Torana clean off the race track... Nothing has changed. Huge amounts of money have recently been spent by the Tilleys of Brookvale Sydney to get a Valiant Hemi 6 to make good horsepower AND hang together all at the same time. Brad Tilley certainly proved it CAN be done. But in the meantime, LJs have won hundreds of events including multiple Australian Rally Championships. Today we see new kids on the block hurling vast sums at getting Chrysler's troubled Valstang (Chargers) to win races & they do. But, getting them to win entire seasons & endurance races usually brings these poor things undone. Torana lovers don't need to prove a thing. The runs are on the board. Watching these "newly" developed Valstangs still struggling to outrun dinky little Toranas is fabulous entertainment for us, but infuriating & frustrating for those who just keep on banging their heads against a brick wall.
THE XU-1 WAS APTLY KNOWN AS THE GIANT KILLER and nothing much has changed over the last 50 years. Shoving a V8 in 'em kills much of the thrill. There are other race categories where V8 LCs & LJs have shown their potential. Their narrow track doesn't really support the proposal. It's the little 6 cylinder component that makes the XU-1 the amazing legend that it is.
Back in the day with a bit more factory support and development from Chrysler how much more competitive they could have been?
Poor sportsmanship by the Charger driver. He knew the Torana was there, but basically ran him off the track. Not to mention that he had already hit him in the rear quarter panel earlier, after being passed by him into a corner.☹
Haha no not bd sportsmanship but rather a bad decision by torana driver he basically left nowhere for the charger to go unless he brakes and let’s him pass,last I checked it’s a race not a Sunday cruise,had every right to take the line he did.
Yeah I agree. Charger driver is owed a swift kick in the nads.
@@andrewh9613 Haha Yes, bad sportsmanship. This is play racing for fun, not Fucking Stupid Nascar.
Harry Hogge...."And Rubbin...Son...Is racin"....
@@andrewh9613
. . . and this is exactly the philosophy that breaks Valstangs... One blows apart after trying to stay with the Torana & tag teaming the Torana and after the Surviving Valstang has held the Torana up for several laps & Torana sails past SLOWER Valstang, ol' mate gets all bent out of shape & crunches Torana using his barge as a weapon.
Same old, same old.
It must be infuriating getting beaten by a piddly little 202?
That was awesome, best era of cars ever.
Conrode straight awaits you valerie.
Thank God there is no talking. I just want to hear the engines
That Vauxhall engine in the torana, was the same engine in the Bedford army trucks we had
Not really..............
Vauxhall ?? I didn't see a 4 cylinder out there
@@slug.racing . Vauxhall , that is GM - British division , DID make 6-cylinder Engines . Just none related to the Holden "Red Motors " .
The Torana had a Holden 6.. Holden.
@@Aishiteimusu . Exactly . The Mighty "Red Motor " .
Nothing to do with the Vauxhall from the same Era .
Hi 👋. Can someone please tell me what the compression ratio on the Xu1???
Holden constantly upgraded their XU-1 engines from 1971 to September 1973. All XU-1s were sold new as road cars which had to be capable of running satisfactorily on Super grade leaded petrol. From memory an early 186 XU-1 made 9.5:1 compression and the final "Bathurst" batch from August '73 made 10.5:1.
@@johnbrooks9523 thanks mate 👍
All these cars very modified
People thought GMH were crazy going from a big V8 Monaro to a 6cyl Tory. They didn't think that way for long
Smaller engine and lighter body also meant less fuel stops and brake changes in the enduro races eg. Bathurst.
@@burniezarsoff4118 then returned with the L34 and A9X they sure did know what they were doing.
@@ZeroFox1970 They sure did. We probably wouldn't have seen them until a year or two later if the XU2 V8s had been built.
@@burniezarsoff4118
Nah... Who needs a V8 when Brock was able to beat all the best 351 XY GTHO Falcons in Australia with a dinky little 202 Torana at Bathurst?
One small fuel miscalculation was what stopped him from doing it again in '73. The little Holden 202 6banger in a nimble car soon put the barges on notice.
@@johnbrooks9523 it helped that it was raining and Brock has plenty of experience in the Torana doing Rallycross .
What circuit is this?
Sandown
👹💪. 129 🤔👏
Equal. Itbjustbcomes down to the drivers skill level and focus on the day.
Is the Charger allowed to have a 4 speed box?
They were available from the factory from 1972
Hay charger
Charger driver had to play dirty to stay ahead... the Torana detonated one Charger and the second one was starting to smoke too. There’s a reason the Toranas had a much better track record than the Chargers, and it’s simple - they were a better race car. Can’t deny the charger looked the goods though.
Nobody played dirty, the torana driver very clearly dived into the charger's line and the charger driver held his. Sad to see but it was absolutely the torana driver who fucked up.
It's racing, it happens.
Someone tell me how a production Torana is quicker than an E49 Charger???
These aren't production cars, they're highly modified. That charger is pushing around 450hp at the flywheel.
@@jacksonjdr94and the brakes
Pretty much the way NASCAR used to be.
✌
Loved the Chargers, but no one raced a Pacer of that era. Why is that? Just wondering why
No point as they had the option of the lighter Charger. the sedans were a well balanced car though admittedly. ✌
Well at half the size the Torana had the advantage it was always to me about a production car that would used as a family car not just car for racing it was the Monaro should have been made to be used to be fair.
Not saying the Torana wasn’t a great car just that it was a smaller vehicle put against a Tank.
power to weight, with decent brakes every time
I see how a 202 won bathurst.
Back when you had to lift weights so you could wrestle the cars around the track.
They arent short straights, that little Torana is stout..
Charger six-pack attack ✌✌✌🤣
The cars sre very modified
Charger needs a 340
Excessive Camber don't allow him to make fast turns
I am a Ford man till death but the LJ Torana is the best looking car ever built .
...and where`s Mad Max and his Interceptor..??
My old girl had a charger I used 2 annoy her all day until she gave me the keys
Hey Charger or Go little big wheels , show em why show em how show em true.
Charger should be black flagged
For holding his line? Get real.
Really nothing in it in a straight line, but the Charger had the Torana under brakes. Those Chargers did have bigger brakes if I remember correctly, and the Torana was a little under braked. Great racing by all.
Charger had standard brakes as valiant sedan
@@Eric-kn4yn. Yes, but still bigger than the Torana. They were air cooled also if I remember correctly.
Poor old chargers no cornering, braking, and the engine was a bit weak, big end and main bearings, but the triple webers were great!
What are you talking about, man?
The valuant chargers were a force to be reckoned with and could out-accelerate V8 offerings from both ford and Holden. Their only compromise was their top speed.
In new Zealand their tracks had more sharp turns and long rolling corners and E49 chargers absolutely dominated for a solid decade, they were deemed unbeatable.
Ford sent Allan Moffat over in his phase III and couldn't best them. He conceded saying that despite his best efforts "i just couldnt have gone any faster".
@@jacksonjdr94 I worked on the first RT chargers, the ones built for the track! the torsion bar suspension was at the least not great, the car was quick, I enjoyed driving them, but they weren’t the best in most of the engineering design
@@mikepeterson6527 In a group test in MOTOR magazine(April 1997) racing legends Peter Brock and Allan Moffat both drove an E49 Charger for the first time and afterwards Brock commented,"The handling is something of a revelation after the HO;the Charger is quite nimble in comparison.In fact,its much better than the VN Group A Commodore.There's a nice neutral balance to it,particularly in fast corners where it just hangs on and feels completely secure."
@@jacksonjdr94
We raced factory standard family cars here in Aust in Series Production. NZ had a TOTALLY DIFFERENT SET OF RULES! All sorts of modifications were permitted in NZ. NOW GET THIS... E37, E38 & E49 R/T Chargers were NEVER SOLD NEW IN NZ! All Webered 265 Chargers sold new in NZ were 770s with E37 or E38 optioned engines and pathetic AUTOMATIC GEARBOXES! Every Charger raced in NZ had had a gearbox swap. We weren't allowed to do that here! ALL THE CHARGERS RACED IN NZ WERE HOTROD MODIFIED CARS!
Anything resembling an E49 & raced in NZ was either homebuilt or imported privately as was allowed by local bizzarre NZ rules... This is why our Australian locally compliant Series Production & Group C cars were ineffective against New Zealand's locally developed hotrods. We had to keep our cars conforming to our local rule books, because after we returned from NZ we still had to race here in compliant cars. Comparing Moffat's Australian Falcon to a New Zealand modified Charger is like comparing a taxi to a NASCAR... IT'S DUMB.
Denial & delusion, coupled to idiotic ignorance might impress some retards. It makes no difference to those of us who KNOW THE TRUTH.
it blown engine lol
I was rooting for the little orange car. Hang in there feisty little guy! Maybe next time.
265 valiant chuger , one 265 boat anchor blew up and the other could not even blow away a 202 red motor in a torana, and the sandown tracks a horse power track with long straits, shows you how bad a race car and engine was in a valiant chuger and why Chrysler stopped the factory race team in 1972 after O race results
Show me on the doll where the charger hurt you? 😂
Engine failures happen, holden 202 engines are certainly not any more reliable than the 265 hemi. Anyone who's played with both will attest to that.
It's racing and they're all subject to NC class rules which means they're required to use a lot of 50yr old engine parts.
A NC competitive 265 hemi pushes 450+hp and revs to 8000rpm on conrod.
That's a lot to ask of any engine.
The torana and the charger were both excellent race cars. But the budget of GMH absolutely dwarfed that of chrysler both in production R&D and race programs.
As for road cars.. it's not even close. An E49 runs a 14.3 second quarter mile and an LJ XU1 could only manage a 15.8.
Put them both on modern tires and the gap widens significantly. An E49 spec on radials will dip into the 12's while the XU1 will manage high 14's.
the little 202 red holden is and was far more reliable than the boat anchor 265 hemi engine, LOOKIT UP CHECK YOUR FACTS,THE 202 DRIVEN BY BROCK WON THE BATHERST 500 AND TOURING CAR TITLE AND MANUFACTURERS MANCHANP TITLE, year 1972 all against the e49 boat ancor, LOOK LEARN YOUR RACE HISTORY, thats why Chrysler folded ended the factory race team end 1972, CHARGERS VARIANTS PACERS CHARGERS 245-265 NEVER WON A MAJOR TOURING CAR RACE OR CHAMPEN SHIP they were heaps of shittttt
@@volksdeutschewaffenss9670You're just flat out wrong.
Both engines have a solid reputation for being reliable. But the hemi is far easier to modify for power due to it's much more modern cylinder head design with high flowing ports and canted valves..
When the chrysler hemi six debuted in 1970 it outclassed the 8yo holden red motor in every possible way.
The base model Holden 202ci had 129hp while the base chrysler 265ci had 203hp.
That means Chrysler offered 31% more cubes with 57% more power.
The Holden 202 XU1 had 190hp while the E49 had 302hp.
Again... 31% more cubes but with 58% more power.
Which one did you say was a "boat anchor" again? 😂
The holden red engine was an excellent engine. But the 265 hemi was just objectively better for performance.
However, The engines in these group NC race cars are in no way a representation of two typical Aussie sixes duking it out.
These are $30,000+ engines. And they occasionally break. That's racing. I guarantee you that LJ of Mick Crosses has also had engine failures over the course of the last 20 years. Again, that's racing.
If you want to talk about where the torana's little flimsy vauxhall body does have an advantage, it's in aero.
Which is why he the LJ doesn't pull on the charger until they're both going well in excess of 100mph.
The LJ has about 100hp less than the charger, but also only about half the frontal area compared to to that of the charger. That's why it inches forward at the end of the straights.
Also 1972 was when the "supercar scare" happened, and chrysler was basically broke because of the decisions of Chrysler America backing put of their deal to import the hemi six as a replacement for the slant 6 in their American vehicles.
GMH had US backing.
Ford Australia had US backing.
Chrysler Australia was left high and dry.
Again both of these are excellent race cars, I don't see why you're being such a hater. Did a valiant driver fuck your bitch back in the 70's or something?
@@jacksonjdr94 please let me which touring car titles the valiant pacer 245 2bbl or 4bbl or e38-e49 chargers won, there are NONE, even the little 202 red motor WON BATHURST AND TOURING CAR TITLE AND MANUFACTURES TITLE FOR HOLDEN, 245-265 chariot engine won nothing,
@@volksdeutschewaffenss9670 You're kidding yourself mate.
In 1973 the Brock and Colin Bond cars were HDT cars. With big corporate money backing their development. Basically "no expense spared".
There were still chargers in 1973 onwards, but they were privateer teams that had to either seek external sponsorship or front the money themselves to go racing.
In the 1973 Bathurst race, the winner was the XA falcon coupe. A charger took 6th place. Beating 15 out of the 18 LJ XU1 torana entrants.
That's a pretty good result and proves the charger was a formidable racecar, don't you think?
Again, why are you being such a hater?
Sure, holden poured money into their racing programs and achieved excellent results. Chrysler didn't do that.
But let's be real.
In terms of what the customer could buy from a dealership... the E49 absolutely roasted the XU1 and was a full 1.5 seconds faster on the quarter mile.
That's just the way it is, I think you need to get over it.
POBRE NARANJOTA LA PERDIO PERO NO HAY CHAPO QUE NO SEA PICUDO.
Mad Max? Yes and no...
Different weight distribution.. BS
Is this Sandown Melbourne
Rubbish way for that to end, sometimes you just got to move over so the race can continue. Otherwise you end up in the weeds
Bit of a Bonehead move by the Torana driver there.
I think he got tired of getting held up by a SLOWER car.
@@johnbrooks9523 even if that were true...you don't just get to drive into someone coz they're in the way of your ideal line.
That isn't how racing works.
Chargers never been good around the turns that reminds me when the NSW police back in the early 70’ handed them back saying they were dangerous to drive lol 😂
Sorry to be blunt but that's actually a complete load of bullshit.
The chargers had excellent handling characteristics for the time.
The police vehicles had the K12 or 16 package which included stiffer torsion bars and different camber/caster calibration which noticeably sacrificed some comfort and tire lifespan in favor of high speed road-holding characteristics. They were basically superior to anything else on the road in 1971.
They kept using them successfully as police cars right up until Mitsubishi bought CAL. At which point they were replaced by XD falcons. (A significant downgrade)
The charger driver should have L plates up.....driving like an absolute tool!🤦🏼♂️🤦🏼♂️
It's not the charger driver's fault the torana driver came in too hot and tried to take a line which the car ahead was already taking.
That charger has to be a arshole
The Torana were always the cheapest, shittiest made cars the GM/Holden could get away with.
You are correct
In NZ they were such an embarrassing car that the Chargers lapped over 10 years
@@thomasraftery409 Our family had a chain of car wrecking yards and new/used car dealerships back in those years. I always got in to the wrecking side and it was truely amazing as to how different Gm/Holden and Ford and Chrysler were made/put together. Think of a make/model and we wrecked/recycled and or sold them. Wolsley, Austin, Leyland, MG, Riley, Holden, Ford, Chrysler etc etc etc Even to the difference between GM (USA) imports and GM/Holden local product was astounding. To sum up, Holden (Australia) always, I mean always used the cheapest, shittiest methodology to build local Australian vehicles. The 48-215 (or the FX for those who dont know) was Holdens first vehicle for Australia and it was a direct copy of GM USA but a bare boned model. From there it was "Football, meat pies, Kangaroos and Holden cars" which was a direct rip off from GM USA ad! The Commodore was a Opel (Europe) copy with altered front suspension for goodness sake. But the Torana, was and is, the worst, crappiest made, cheapest POS that ever rolled off any production line anywhere! The Austin Morris 1100 was a beautifully put together and made vehicle compared to the Torana, and thats saying something as that model Austin was horrendous! But to top it off, Holden milked the Australian taxpayer for $Millions over many years and in the last 24 months demanded $Millions more in one lump sum and then bolted with the cash!! Before Holden rug pulled out of Australia, My Father had a chat with a Holden Exec - he was import from the USA - and in a moment of honesty and a few beers - admitted that GM USA could not believe what they got away with in Australia compared to their product offering in the USA. From the get go GM had a strategy of how little they could offer for how much they could screw the Aust taxpayer (Govt) and the car buying public. If you ever have done a side by side comparison of USA vehicles/options/features and what the same company did for Australia, you will know what I mean. The last few generations of local made Commodores were at equal standing in most cases against overseas manufacturers but the kicker is that we, the taxpayer paid Holden to finally catch up and then they stole the cash and ran. Last point - the very first Australian designed and Australian made car (excluding the Tarrant) was the FORD Falcon. Research it and you will find it.
Ratbag Charger driver knew he was done and squeased the Torana!. Love the 'brutality' of the engineering of these cars!, not an engine management chip anywhere! 🤣
More body roll than Lizzo
A bit of dirty driving by the Chrysler there..
Forget v8 supercars worst thing that ever started it's boring ..now in the old days we had different classes which tested the real drivers..God bless the good old days...have not watched a supercar race including Bathurst.. hate it
Absolutely
No chargers