Man gives you a real appreciation of the thickness of the jungle. A wall of green. If they girls indeed tried to path along the river downstream it was possibly the only option they had, after help failed to come. There is no crossing that green fortress otherwise, in time to save yourself, even if you had proper tools.
I believe that the best way to find the place for the night photos is to pay attention to what the girls did: it is a place where you can see the stone from above, as they intentionally made signs for this to happen. The rock with orange plastics was big. At least 6 square meters. I arrived at this number by comparing the red bag that Kris had in a daytime photo before the fateful day. Many people rated this bag as being quite small [15 cm] but I believe it was at least 30 cm long based on the size of Kris' tibia. This rock has to be next to a high ravine, with an exposed rock wall and vegetation above. And it has to be near a watercourse. Must have some plant species upon the ravine top: e.g. Cecropia peltata, Spondias mombin, Oreomunnea, Cedrela odorata? Cupania guatemalcensis? Phyllostachys aurea, Clusia rosea, Clethra mexicana, Anthurium schlechtendalii, Musa velutina, Heliconia sp. The best way to find the place is to fly the drone lower than in the videos posted here, if possible. Find stone, the wall and the plants upon the wall and you will find the place...
Partielly i agree with you. The parts were i dont agree with you, are the plants. Unfortunately its almost 10 years ago. The vegetation after 10 years is very likely total different, than in the nightphotos. Sure, its the usual plants which are everywhere in Panama ... but even the V-shape twigs in the nightphotos maybe isnt there anymore. I highly doubt that plants help to recognize the spot again. But i agree more about the stones you mentioned. But even at the stones, we have to consider: that the large stone with the red plasticbags on it, is a stone with soft edges - .. in general it doesnt have hard edges... that means: the river shaped it ... and that means: that large stone is often underwater when it comes to the rainy seasons. That also explains why there is no green on it. So even the large stone could be hard to find, because it could be under water , depending of the time of the year, and how dry it is. Meaning: there are only good chances to find that spot, when it was longer dry..and the waterlevel on the rivers are very low. Its really a hard task. And yes, it seems also for me, that the girls were next to a ravine. Because Kris hair looked dry, even when it was raining in the night shots. Therefore i find it very likely, that the ravine was that steep, that it made some sort of a rain cover (and maybe that was even the reason, why Kris and Lisanne choosed that place ... ). The fact that Lisanne looked on 3th April into her weather-app on her phone, also could support, that both were concerned about rain - therefore its plausible for me, that both searched a spot where they are in cover from the rain, and the freshwater (river) was near... and there are big stones which are helping to display a SOS-sign. Now , i am not sure, wether that SOS-sign really were meant to seen from "above" .. because as far i saw on the nightshots the trees cover the sky (at best really small patches are open). Hard to say ... There could be open patches towards the sky.. because not only the SOS-sign is facing towards the sky, but also Lisanne was giving signal (flashes) with her camera towards the sky... how much she really wanted to signal into the sky, is in question, because on that rainy night, there was not only no helicopter, but also the visibility was low, bevause of the rainy night. Now interesting is also: that in general there were large formations where Kris and Lisanne were... not only the ravine, and the large stones.. but also behind the stones, there are gigantic stones visible (which seems to be around 3-5 meters big). It also could mean, that Lisanne and Kris picked that place on purpose: because it was maybe the place with the biggest stones they found on her whole hike - and therefore they thought "there is a good chance, that people search us near El Mirador at the biggest prominent formations" ... The problem of that area is: it looks like its like a v-shape.. meaning: you are surrounded by that ravine is probably only visible from a POV of 90degrees.. the other 270 degrees are covered from the shape of ravine (which made it harder for search parties to found the girls). Also it is sure in my opinion: that the spot is south from the jeans of Kris. Because the Jeans of Kris is the most upstream-remain of the Culebra-river , which was found. I think the spot of the night-shots definetely can be found, even when it would look a bit different today. I even can imagine, that few remains are still there (espescially things like earrings of metal (because of the density of metal, the likelyhood to be washed away by the river, is small).
@@videosdeecologia7468 I agree with you. I also have a map about the elevetions and steepness of the area (colorcoded), i work on it, to define the spot where the girls could be in the nightshots. For instance i am very sure, the girls didnt made it to the first monkey bridge.. because the trail to the first monkey bridge goes first along the maedows (paddocks), but the maedows are such a beautiful place to take photos - no way the girls wouldnt take photos there, if they had reached the maedows. And the maedows are only around 30 minutes from the spot of image 508. The fact that the girls didnt took pictures at the meadows, means for me: they never reached the maedows. Another fact is supporting this theory: I looked that on the whole hike the biggest timegap between taking photos were 40 minutes. In average they took fotos of the hike every 15-20 minutes. Because the meadows are 30 minutes from image 508 , its quiet sure, they would took some photos there. Again: the fact that they didnt, proves for me: that they didnt reached the maedows. And because the trail along the maedows lead to the monkey bridge, i am also sure, they never reached the monkey bridge. For me that means: something happened before they reached the maedows. I kind of rule out the possibility of an accident, because the girls did survive at least 8 days , and one of the girls survived at least 10 days as we know it from the cellphone-data. I also rule out the third party involvement, because no criminal would give the belongings of the girls to the police (to risky to be tracked back to the criminal). So a) i prefer the got-lost-theory... and b) i assume it was after the river of image 508, but before the maedows...and c) they got lost before 30 minutes past by (because they usually made photos in that rhythm.. ) meaning: they got lost very likely between the first and the second river after El Mirador, or even at the second river itself. Someone pointed it out (and there is a chance for it) , that the girls confused the second river with the first river (because they appear quiet similar). Maybe one of the girls thought: "we are going in circles" , and came off the trail. Now, Feliziano, and the parents of Kris went on that trail to the meadows..they also crossed both rivers. And for them it looked like only one trail is going between image 508, and the maedows. I'm not sure, what the possibilities are, to get lost in that area. But it really seems for me, they followed the first or second river, downstream (as far i saw in the steepness-map, indeed there are few steep ravines along those rivers). And both rivers are flowing into the Culebra-River (where the remains of the girls were found, after they decomposed, and the river washed them away there). Also where both rivers going into the Culebra, its more upstream , than the first remain of the girls (Kris Jeans) was found (that makes sense). Because the girls occassionally had 1 bar of signal on their phone, that means for me, they didnt dare to go deeper into the jungle, when they were lost. I assume, they mostly stayed at one place. That also fits to the "SOS-sign" on the stone (someone who makes a SOS-sign , stays there, and doesnt plan to leave that place - otherwise it would make no sense to find the SOS-sign). So i assume the spot of the nightshot was very near to the spot where the girls got lost - from there they didnt moved a lot, but searched the nightphoto-spot, because it had quiet a good cover from the rain, and it was near to fresh water (river). And had big stones, to place signs there. In the mind of the girls it was the best place, i think. Someone who thinks different would rather go for a meaedow, because its more easy to spot from the air, but ok - i understand the logic of the girls, even when it probably wasnt the best decision. May i ask you , how you know so much about the plants ? You called them by latin names ... do you work in that field ?
@@PygmalionFaciebat Again. Very reasonable comment. Yes, I also believe that they descended after the first creek. According to comments on the C Romain channel, it could be that there was a second trail parallel to this creek... We should also remember that the women may have followed this trail that goes down because it made no sense to go up to the paddocks... It would go against logic if they thought they were returning to Boquete. Yes I have a PhD in plant biology.
@@videosdeecologia7468 Your expertise is very interesting. This maybe (?) could mean, that from the kind of plants you see on the photos (from the daytime photos until the nightphotos) you maybe could recognize some patterns ? Its hard i imagine. But there is an additional information to this (which also supports your thoughts of your last posting) : Feliziano said about the nightphotos that the kind of reddish stones/soil is much more common downhill/back to boquete. For me it also makes a lot of sense, that they just want to be a bit curious what is beyond El Mirador, but didnt planned to go far away. At image 508 it was already around 2pm - so that was already 3 hours of hiking. Its easy to know even for unexperienced hikers "if we needed 3 hours to get here, its also 3 hours to get back" ... And they knew the sun goes down around 5 pm (its for that reason i am sure, they called the emergency numbers (at 4:40pm - 4:50pm ... they knew they would not make it back because of the dark). So it means for me: at 2pm they definetely knew: this should be or turning point. For me thats supports the theory that they very likely didnt went to far from that point, and didnt got to the maedows. A prove for me, that they didnt even wanted to reach the maedows also is: the last time Lisanne looked into google maps was at El Mirador. And because there was no pictures at the maedows, and not even another look into google maps, it looks for me: she didnt planned to get to some "new destination" ... Its interesting though, that she also didnt looked into google maps when they got lost. Not that it would helped - because google maps of that area , in 2014 was very vague. Romain C is providing us with amazingly good drone footage of this area. I can imagine, that he maybe even flew over that area , and we just have a hard time to recognize it. Thats maybe also the (good) reason why you recommended him to fly lower - so that he is under the trees.. because the trees really hide a lot. In terms of drone safety its very hard to fly under the trees. The drone could be stuck into a tree - and it could be lost. I think its for drone-safety, that he mostly flys above the trees. Its a very hard case, but i am really optimistic that we could solve it. I also thought about stacking together the nightphotos into a astrophoto-imagestacker. It could erase the noise from the overlapping areas of the nightshots, and could provide with better details ... and better possibilities to enhance at least the area of overlapping fotos. This could maybe at least give information wether the trees closed the view to the sky, or not. This could provide the information: wether the girls made the flashsignals and the SOS-sign towards the sky, ... or towards a free sight horizontal (maybe because they once saw people far away from that spot). The best would be, if Lisannes parents would release the original photos in full resolution. I could make really a lot from that with the astro-imagestacker. But the nightshots we have are already altered - and badly enhanced by the investigators. Around 90% of image-data is lost from the photos wich were published. Thats why the original photos would be so important. And the parents of Lisanne and Kris have those photos, but never released it. I understand why (its private for them) ... but it makes it so hard to win new information - only from published photos alone.
The two sides are very different. Certainly they new they were on the wrong side, or if they couldn't see the sun or the city for the trees, they should have recognized a difference in the trail. It just doesn't make any sense.
05:16 those open areas where the canopy cannot close upon the stream are the best places to seek for the night photos location.... I guess that night photos location could be found if people go river up from the place where the Kris short was found... But it need to enter a little in the forest [5 or 10m] along the river to find the ravine of night photos - what could take a lot o time... But I guess is possible to find the location; I believe that it is close to the first or second river down the Mirador... I guess the 508 photo was took to mark the choice of the girls to follow this n1 stream - whatever the reason... Other possibility is that the night photos locations is at a place where the river is close to the trail... Parallel to the trail...
Looking at that video some ideas occur in my mind: It has occurred to me several times to listen to unknown people on the trail and I found a way to avoid it: walk silently in the woods and leave the trail very slowly and hide behind the first tree I found. I've done this several times, including hiding myself and my father. It's incredible: the unknown person passes a few meters from you but doesn't see you. Sometimes I just walked 10 or 15 feet and ducked. Works great too, near some fern, etc. The question remains: why didn't the Dutch women do this if they distrusted strange people in the forest?
Personally, they were looking for the waterfall, apparently it was late and the night caught them.!! It's sad to know what they spent the night alone in the middle of the jungle! It is a mystery we will never know what really happened, if it was an accident or murder, the accident is very unlikely, since at least one girl survived!
Hola, no se si puedes entender bien mi idioma...admiro mucho tu investigación hasta el momento eres el único que ha tomado la desicion de llegar tan lejos, no ha mirado las fotos que se encontraron en la cámara? En especial las que su perspectiva es mirando hacia arriba? Fíjate que hay dos fotos que el lente de la cámara está fijado hacia arriba...Tienes que buscar un experto en biología que identifique la clase de árboles que se ven en la cámara de Kris y lisanne..ese tipo de vegetación que se ve justo en las fotos...así fuera de...noche un experto en biología identificaria en qué clase de zona crece esa vegetación, saludos 🙏
When I was 18 I was travelling in Turkey and met an Australian girl who decided she would climb to the top of a mini mountain on the coast (surrounded on most sides by cliffs). She had no equipment, I thought it was crazy but reluctantly agreed to go with her. Near the top it started raining, the rocks became slippery and I (wearing a backpack) nearly fell backwards down the cliff(would have been fatal). I took of my back pack and she said I should throw it up to her, my throw failed and it tumbled died the cliff. She was determined to go and find it but I convinced her it wasn't worth it. One of us could easily have died or been injured. And this within sight of a holiday resort. In a jungle, perhaps a few minutes of the trail? It's all too possible. Maybe one of these girls had the same crazy determination as my Australian friend and it ended badly...
@@RideAcrossTheRiver there is a 3D reconstruction of the place where they took those photos. Lidar can help find that place by seeing through leaves and then comparing to the location. That's all
@@cirplelyxe Yes, I've seen that reconstruction. But after ten years of weather and annual floods, it's unlikely the location looks the same. Two metres of fast-moving floodwater can roll boulders a great distance.
Aunque no se utilizaron drones si se realizaron algunos vuelos con helicopteros y avionetas a través del sendero y el rio culebra. Algo que llamo la atención fue que los equipos de Sinaproc nunca consiguieron nada de nada (y esto no lo digo yo, varios videos hay donde el personal de Sinaproc manifiesta que las busquedas dieron resultados negativos).
@@carlosbrizuela6521 En Brasil hubo un niño que se perdió en Presidente Figueiredo. Los equipos pasaron por el lugar donde lo encontraron solo unos días antes. En ese momento estaba en otro lugar... Es muy común que los equipos estén en el lugar equivocado en el momento equivocado... Es un golpe de suerte o mala suerte... Las búsquedas...El padre del niño lo encontró 40 km y casi 50 días después. Pero estaba muy débil y murió... Floresta Amazonica.
@@videosdeecologia7468 Sin dudas es cuestión de suerte en situaciones así. Sin embargo este caso dista de simplemente solo 2 personas perdidas o accidentadas de lo contrario no llamaria la atención; bastantes casualidades, incoherencias y contradicciones que no pueden ser ignoradas, signos de alerta o banderas rojas se les conoce. Tambien te puedo colocar un ejemplo: hay casos de personas perdidas en la naturaleza o accidentadas que luego de un tiempo decidieron dejar una documentación de lo que les paso ya sea que contaban con una camara de video o un telefono, fotografiando y/o dandole mensajes a su seres queridos por si no fueran encontrados. En este caso que fueron 2 personas (y esto es algo a tener en cuenta por diferentes cuestiones) esto no sucedio a pesar que contaban con 2 telefonos y una camara fotografica, con bateria de gran duración (y eran chicas que tenian la tendencia de escribir en diarios personales). Solo tenemos unas misteriosas fotografías nocturnas una semana despues de la desaparación... y un archivo desaparecido tambien!
Hello. Thank you for the video. In which direction the drone is flying in the beginning, please? West or east? Is this direction in the beginning the background of the "summit"-pictures? Thank you, very much.
Hi, I'm gonna make a video about the Kris and Lisanne case using main sources like Matt articles at Imperfect Plan and the book 'Lost in the Jungle', so I want to ask if I can use your footages to illustrate a few minutes of the video? I'm a brazilian youtuber so there is not much content about this case here, would be of great help.
Leia o blog da Scarlet R, acho que ela foi a pessoa que mais pesquisou esse caso, cobrindo uma grande gama de informações. Não esquece de dar os créditos pra ela também, ela merece! O blog dela é o "Koude Kaas(cold case)." Os vídeos do Romain complementam bastante as informações do blog da Scarlet R.
They got lost looking for the hidden waterfalls, they stepped out of the trail , then , knowing they had lost the trail , desperately trying to get back to the way out, they or one of them , Lisanne had an accident, broke her leg and foot and thus they continued to get away off the trail back, river down , looking for a safer place... that's why the rescue searchers couldn't find them on time! Poor girls! Rip...
In this youtube channel "Juran Santos com o Projeto Aventura Animal" there is a interesting video "Ouvi uma onça de perto vocalizado" showing the dangers of tropical forests: holes, stones, cougars. Everything around 🤣
I've always said that this situation involving K&L suggests kidnapping, rape, robbery and murder. The other narratives seem to me very fanciful and contradictory! My reasoning is based on this understanding. 1- The place of captivity and the larger remains must be close to this trail, the criminals certainly did not use the trails or the streams to remove the girls from that location, as someone would easily have witnessed this attempt to remove the girls. The footage in this video shows that if someone tried to move away from the trail towards the jungle to avoid witnesses, it would be impractical! At a distance of just 1km from the trail towards the jungle, what we have is very closed, dense vegetation, and several high mountains that are very difficult to climb. The geography of the place imposes the mobility of people through trails in the form of trenches between the mountain undulations. 2- Perhaps this is a possible explanation for why the malefactors got rid of the girls' belongings and scattered some remains along the trail, with the aim of discouraging new searches that could be more thorough and investigate nearby properties. Due to the geographic limitations of the place, the search parties must have arrived very close to the place of captivity or the lifeless bodies of these girls, and this scared the possible culprits! The reward for information was just another incentive for the bandits to draw attention away from themselves by getting rid of the stolen belongings. We shouldn't blame the parents in this, they were desperate to find their daughters still alive. 3- My guess is that between the Mirador and the place that is two hours beyond photo 508, some property or abandoned house was used as a captivity, place of dismemberment and tomb for the Dutch women. 4- The place of the night photos, it can be very far from the surroundings of the trail, because the bad guys could have taken the camera there, without having to take the girls along (who should have been dead by this time). That's probably why the night shot of Kris' hair and Lisanne's face doesn't feature the setting the photo was taken in. Note: Romain, if you had used the drone at the Mirador, to show the trail towards the city of Boquete, it would have been very interesting too. Excellent work!!!😉👍
Revisa los capitulos en audios (p.c.) de "lost in Panamá". No solo por lo que concluye hay una cantidad de datos bastantes interesantes, de este caso no sabemos mejor dicho "creemos saber".
The fact that there was substantial cash in the backpack when it was found means there were no bad actors involved. No one anywhere is going to kidnap two girls, murder them, and not take their money. Impossible and silly to imagine
@@donaldbiden1920I disagree. There are several cases where rape and homicide occur, and the victim's belongings are not taken, including money as well. Not every murderer wants to kill to steal. There are other evil intentions as well, theft is just one of these evil intentions. Discordo. Há diversos casos onde ocorre estupro e homicídio, e os pertences da vítima não são levados, incluso dinheiro também. Nem todo homicida quer matar para roubar. Existem outras intenções perversas também, o roubo é somente uma dessas intenções malignas.
Getting lost is not a 'fanciful' theory, it is the most likely explanation. Look at the place! Take a wrong turn and you could be well and truly stuffed.
J’aimerais bien connaître ton opinion sur la disparition de Kris et Lissanne maintenant que ru as poussé tes recherches jusqu'à leurs extrêmes limites .....crime ou mort accidentelle dans ce dédale vert ???.....
I don't know if you understand me correctly... But in the Chiriqui area, between 2021-2022 they have reported the disappearance of 15 young women and 10 men; They recently found a psychopath in that area who was linked to the disappearance of a woman...Which was found in pieces of meat in a plastic sack, he consumed the woman's meat as if it were a cow in his diary , until he gave the rest that was left to a neighbor and she realized that it was not normal meat... So now I am more than sure that it was a crime :( cannibals are not in the jungle... but rather they are civilized and put on shoes and shirt
Why didn't you follow the ridge line or be to the left of the ridge line. For one, you can see both sides of the ridge and two because almost all the passable spots they could have fallen are on the left side until you get near the bottom. It feels like people are deliberately trying not to do a good job just so people will have more questions.That is why you should have followed the ridge line.
Good god if it's upsetting you that much a drone and a plane ticket cost very little, go show em how it's done instead of whining in the comment section
Man gives you a real appreciation of the thickness of the jungle. A wall of green.
If they girls indeed tried to path along the river downstream it was possibly the only option they had, after help failed to come. There is no crossing that green fortress otherwise, in time to save yourself, even if you had proper tools.
incredible footage, such a beautiful place to have such a tragedy occur.
I believe that the best way to find the place for the night photos is to pay attention to what the girls did: it is a place where you can see the stone from above, as they intentionally made signs for this to happen. The rock with orange plastics was big. At least 6 square meters. I arrived at this number by comparing the red bag that Kris had in a daytime photo before the fateful day. Many people rated this bag as being quite small [15 cm] but I believe it was at least 30 cm long based on the size of Kris' tibia. This rock has to be next to a high ravine, with an exposed rock wall and vegetation above. And it has to be near a watercourse. Must have some plant species upon the ravine top: e.g. Cecropia peltata, Spondias mombin, Oreomunnea, Cedrela odorata? Cupania guatemalcensis? Phyllostachys aurea, Clusia rosea, Clethra mexicana, Anthurium schlechtendalii, Musa velutina, Heliconia sp. The best way to find the place is to fly the drone lower than in the videos posted here, if possible. Find stone, the wall and the plants upon the wall and you will find the place...
Partielly i agree with you. The parts were i dont agree with you, are the plants. Unfortunately its almost 10 years ago. The vegetation after 10 years is very likely total different, than in the nightphotos. Sure, its the usual plants which are everywhere in Panama ... but even the V-shape twigs in the nightphotos maybe isnt there anymore. I highly doubt that plants help to recognize the spot again.
But i agree more about the stones you mentioned. But even at the stones, we have to consider: that the large stone with the red plasticbags on it, is a stone with soft edges - .. in general it doesnt have hard edges... that means: the river shaped it ... and that means: that large stone is often underwater when it comes to the rainy seasons. That also explains why there is no green on it. So even the large stone could be hard to find, because it could be under water , depending of the time of the year, and how dry it is.
Meaning: there are only good chances to find that spot, when it was longer dry..and the waterlevel on the rivers are very low.
Its really a hard task. And yes, it seems also for me, that the girls were next to a ravine. Because Kris hair looked dry, even when it was raining in the night shots. Therefore i find it very likely, that the ravine was that steep, that it made some sort of a rain cover (and maybe that was even the reason, why Kris and Lisanne choosed that place ... ). The fact that Lisanne looked on 3th April into her weather-app on her phone, also could support, that both were concerned about rain - therefore its plausible for me, that both searched a spot where they are in cover from the rain, and the freshwater (river) was near... and there are big stones which are helping to display a SOS-sign.
Now , i am not sure, wether that SOS-sign really were meant to seen from "above" .. because as far i saw on the nightshots the trees cover the sky (at best really small patches are open). Hard to say ... There could be open patches towards the sky.. because not only the SOS-sign is facing towards the sky, but also Lisanne was giving signal (flashes) with her camera towards the sky... how much she really wanted to signal into the sky, is in question, because on that rainy night, there was not only no helicopter, but also the visibility was low, bevause of the rainy night.
Now interesting is also: that in general there were large formations where Kris and Lisanne were... not only the ravine, and the large stones.. but also behind the stones, there are gigantic stones visible (which seems to be around 3-5 meters big). It also could mean, that Lisanne and Kris picked that place on purpose: because it was maybe the place with the biggest stones they found on her whole hike - and therefore they thought "there is a good chance, that people search us near El Mirador at the biggest prominent formations" ... The problem of that area is: it looks like its like a v-shape.. meaning: you are surrounded by that ravine is probably only visible from a POV of 90degrees.. the other 270 degrees are covered from the shape of ravine (which made it harder for search parties to found the girls). Also it is sure in my opinion: that the spot is south from the jeans of Kris. Because the Jeans of Kris is the most upstream-remain of the Culebra-river , which was found.
I think the spot of the night-shots definetely can be found, even when it would look a bit different today. I even can imagine, that few remains are still there (espescially things like earrings of metal (because of the density of metal, the likelyhood to be washed away by the river, is small).
@@PygmalionFaciebat You comment makes lot's of sense... Anyway I guess the spot is visible from drone in a particular season of the year.
@@videosdeecologia7468 I agree with you. I also have a map about the elevetions and steepness of the area (colorcoded), i work on it, to define the spot where the girls could be in the nightshots.
For instance i am very sure, the girls didnt made it to the first monkey bridge.. because the trail to the first monkey bridge goes first along the maedows (paddocks), but the maedows are such a beautiful place to take photos - no way the girls wouldnt take photos there, if they had reached the maedows. And the maedows are only around 30 minutes from the spot of image 508. The fact that the girls didnt took pictures at the meadows, means for me: they never reached the maedows.
Another fact is supporting this theory: I looked that on the whole hike the biggest timegap between taking photos were 40 minutes. In average they took fotos of the hike every 15-20 minutes. Because the meadows are 30 minutes from image 508 , its quiet sure, they would took some photos there. Again: the fact that they didnt, proves for me: that they didnt reached the maedows. And because the trail along the maedows lead to the monkey bridge, i am also sure, they never reached the monkey bridge.
For me that means: something happened before they reached the maedows. I kind of rule out the possibility of an accident, because the girls did survive at least 8 days , and one of the girls survived at least 10 days as we know it from the cellphone-data.
I also rule out the third party involvement, because no criminal would give the belongings of the girls to the police (to risky to be tracked back to the criminal).
So a) i prefer the got-lost-theory... and b) i assume it was after the river of image 508, but before the maedows...and c) they got lost before 30 minutes past by (because they usually made photos in that rhythm.. ) meaning: they got lost very likely between the first and the second river after El Mirador, or even at the second river itself.
Someone pointed it out (and there is a chance for it) , that the girls confused the second river with the first river (because they appear quiet similar). Maybe one of the girls thought: "we are going in circles" , and came off the trail.
Now, Feliziano, and the parents of Kris went on that trail to the meadows..they also crossed both rivers. And for them it looked like only one trail is going between image 508, and the maedows. I'm not sure, what the possibilities are, to get lost in that area.
But it really seems for me, they followed the first or second river, downstream (as far i saw in the steepness-map, indeed there are few steep ravines along those rivers). And both rivers are flowing into the Culebra-River (where the remains of the girls were found, after they decomposed, and the river washed them away there).
Also where both rivers going into the Culebra, its more upstream , than the first remain of the girls (Kris Jeans) was found (that makes sense).
Because the girls occassionally had 1 bar of signal on their phone, that means for me, they didnt dare to go deeper into the jungle, when they were lost. I assume, they mostly stayed at one place. That also fits to the "SOS-sign" on the stone (someone who makes a SOS-sign , stays there, and doesnt plan to leave that place - otherwise it would make no sense to find the SOS-sign). So i assume the spot of the nightshot was very near to the spot where the girls got lost - from there they didnt moved a lot, but searched the nightphoto-spot, because it had quiet a good cover from the rain, and it was near to fresh water (river). And had big stones, to place signs there. In the mind of the girls it was the best place, i think.
Someone who thinks different would rather go for a meaedow, because its more easy to spot from the air, but ok - i understand the logic of the girls, even when it probably wasnt the best decision.
May i ask you , how you know so much about the plants ? You called them by latin names ... do you work in that field ?
@@PygmalionFaciebat Again. Very reasonable comment. Yes, I also believe that they descended after the first creek. According to comments on the C Romain channel, it could be that there was a second trail parallel to this creek... We should also remember that the women may have followed this trail that goes down because it made no sense to go up to the paddocks... It would go against logic if they thought they were returning to Boquete. Yes I have a PhD in plant biology.
@@videosdeecologia7468 Your expertise is very interesting. This maybe (?) could mean, that from the kind of plants you see on the photos (from the daytime photos until the nightphotos) you maybe could recognize some patterns ? Its hard i imagine. But there is an additional information to this (which also supports your thoughts of your last posting) : Feliziano said about the nightphotos that the kind of reddish stones/soil is much more common downhill/back to boquete.
For me it also makes a lot of sense, that they just want to be a bit curious what is beyond El Mirador, but didnt planned to go far away. At image 508 it was already around 2pm - so that was already 3 hours of hiking. Its easy to know even for unexperienced hikers "if we needed 3 hours to get here, its also 3 hours to get back" ... And they knew the sun goes down around 5 pm (its for that reason i am sure, they called the emergency numbers (at 4:40pm - 4:50pm ... they knew they would not make it back because of the dark). So it means for me: at 2pm they definetely knew: this should be or turning point.
For me thats supports the theory that they very likely didnt went to far from that point, and didnt got to the maedows.
A prove for me, that they didnt even wanted to reach the maedows also is: the last time Lisanne looked into google maps was at El Mirador.
And because there was no pictures at the maedows, and not even another look into google maps, it looks for me: she didnt planned to get to some "new destination" ...
Its interesting though, that she also didnt looked into google maps when they got lost. Not that it would helped - because google maps of that area , in 2014 was very vague.
Romain C is providing us with amazingly good drone footage of this area. I can imagine, that he maybe even flew over that area , and we just have a hard time to recognize it. Thats maybe also the (good) reason why you recommended him to fly lower - so that he is under the trees.. because the trees really hide a lot.
In terms of drone safety its very hard to fly under the trees. The drone could be stuck into a tree - and it could be lost. I think its for drone-safety, that he mostly flys above the trees.
Its a very hard case, but i am really optimistic that we could solve it.
I also thought about stacking together the nightphotos into a astrophoto-imagestacker. It could erase the noise from the overlapping areas of the nightshots, and could provide with better details ... and better possibilities to enhance at least the area of overlapping fotos. This could maybe at least give information wether the trees closed the view to the sky, or not. This could provide the information: wether the girls made the flashsignals and the SOS-sign towards the sky, ... or towards a free sight horizontal (maybe because they once saw people far away from that spot).
The best would be, if Lisannes parents would release the original photos in full resolution. I could make really a lot from that with the astro-imagestacker. But the nightshots we have are already altered - and badly enhanced by the investigators. Around 90% of image-data is lost from the photos wich were published. Thats why the original photos would be so important. And the parents of Lisanne and Kris have those photos, but never released it. I understand why (its private for them) ... but it makes it so hard to win new information - only from published photos alone.
Checkout this spot here at 10:12 and at 10:15 near the white thingy. Looks a lot like the "V branch tree" (aka the "fork tree") from the nigh photos.
Sure, that tree stayed the same over a decade of wind, flood, and growth.
@@RideAcrossTheRiver that’s a big ass tree. So yeah, it stayed after all these years.
@@hermenegildo7356 Oh, well, if you say so, it must be true.
@@RideAcrossTheRiver not a rocket science. Just common sense.
@@hermenegildo7356 Common sense shows trees change markedly over a single season.
Romain, I really appreciate your work.
Ночные фото делали уже не девушки !
The two sides are very different. Certainly they new they were on the wrong side, or if they couldn't see the sun or the city for the trees, they should have recognized a difference in the trail. It just doesn't make any sense.
05:16 those open areas where the canopy cannot close upon the stream are the best places to seek for the night photos location.... I guess that night photos location could be found if people go river up from the place where the Kris short was found... But it need to enter a little in the forest [5 or 10m] along the river to find the ravine of night photos - what could take a lot o time... But I guess is possible to find the location; I believe that it is close to the first or second river down the Mirador... I guess the 508 photo was took to mark the choice of the girls to follow this n1 stream - whatever the reason... Other possibility is that the night photos locations is at a place where the river is close to the trail... Parallel to the trail...
Looking at that video some ideas occur in my mind: It has occurred to me several times to listen to unknown people on the trail and I found a way to avoid it: walk silently in the woods and leave the trail very slowly and hide behind the first tree I found. I've done this several times, including hiding myself and my father. It's incredible: the unknown person passes a few meters from you but doesn't see you. Sometimes I just walked 10 or 15 feet and ducked. Works great too, near some fern, etc. The question remains: why didn't the Dutch women do this if they distrusted strange people in the forest?
Personally, they were looking for the waterfall, apparently it was late and the night caught them.!! It's sad to know what they spent the night alone in the middle of the jungle! It is a mystery we will never know what really happened, if it was an accident or murder, the accident is very unlikely, since at least one girl survived!
Are you from Panama?
@@yohanyordano No, I'm from Brazil.
@@yohanyordano survived? which one?
@@El-Argento No, I'm saying that if drones were around in 2014, they would surely be found alive!
Hola, no se si puedes entender bien mi idioma...admiro mucho tu investigación hasta el momento eres el único que ha tomado la desicion de llegar tan lejos, no ha mirado las fotos que se encontraron en la cámara? En especial las que su perspectiva es mirando hacia arriba? Fíjate que hay dos fotos que el lente de la cámara está fijado hacia arriba...Tienes que buscar un experto en biología que identifique la clase de árboles que se ven en la cámara de Kris y lisanne..ese tipo de vegetación que se ve justo en las fotos...así fuera de...noche un experto en biología identificaria en qué clase de zona crece esa vegetación, saludos 🙏
Muchas gracias ! El problema de identificarse con la vegetación es que este lado de la montaña es más o menos lo mismo.
Kris ❤ Lisanne R.I.P ❤
When I was 18 I was travelling in Turkey and met an Australian girl who decided she would climb to the top of a mini mountain on the coast (surrounded on most sides by cliffs). She had no equipment, I thought it was crazy but reluctantly agreed to go with her. Near the top it started raining, the rocks became slippery and I (wearing a backpack) nearly fell backwards down the cliff(would have been fatal). I took of my back pack and she said I should throw it up to her, my throw failed and it tumbled died the cliff. She was determined to go and find it but I convinced her it wasn't worth it. One of us could easily have died or been injured. And this within sight of a holiday resort. In a jungle, perhaps a few minutes of the trail? It's all too possible. Maybe one of these girls had the same crazy determination as my Australian friend and it ended badly...
Or, some of them may have suffered a fatal accident. Making things even more difficult.
I think the night location is somewhere around where all the the rivers meet together.
Amazing work Romain! If you need funding for exploring the 2 cable bridge crossings (night time pictures location) put a link in your description.
whats 2 cable bridge crossing
@@letspetpuppies Search for my_theory_for_the_entire_time_the_girls_were/. It’s the Reddit topic.
@@letspetpuppies See the picture first and third cable bridge crossing.
@@roybm3124 how you know it’s the nighttime pictur location? I thought nobody knew the exact location
@@letspetpuppies I thought you could see cables of a bridge in one of the pictures. The one with the twigs on the big stone.
What about a lidar on a drone for surface scanning?
Scanning of what for what?
@@RideAcrossTheRiver surface to find he matching location, we saw the photos and know what their loc looks like- would be useful in search
@@cirplelyxe Match what location to what? Nobody knows were the two girls were.
@@RideAcrossTheRiver there is a 3D reconstruction of the place where they took those photos. Lidar can help find that place by seeing through leaves and then comparing to the location. That's all
@@cirplelyxe Yes, I've seen that reconstruction. But after ten years of weather and annual floods, it's unlikely the location looks the same. Two metres of fast-moving floodwater can roll boulders a great distance.
Esos drones fueran existido en el 2014 fueran encontrado a Kriis y Lisanne con vida!! ☹
Indeed.
Peut être....mais la couverture végétale est si dense !!.....même pas certain...tout dépend du trajet effectué...
Aunque no se utilizaron drones si se realizaron algunos vuelos con helicopteros y avionetas a través del sendero y el rio culebra. Algo que llamo la atención fue que los equipos de Sinaproc nunca consiguieron nada de nada (y esto no lo digo yo, varios videos hay donde el personal de Sinaproc manifiesta que las busquedas dieron resultados negativos).
@@carlosbrizuela6521 En Brasil hubo un niño que se perdió en Presidente Figueiredo. Los equipos pasaron por el lugar donde lo encontraron solo unos días antes. En ese momento estaba en otro lugar... Es muy común que los equipos estén en el lugar equivocado en el momento equivocado... Es un golpe de suerte o mala suerte... Las búsquedas...El padre del niño lo encontró 40 km y casi 50 días después. Pero estaba muy débil y murió... Floresta Amazonica.
@@videosdeecologia7468 Sin dudas es cuestión de suerte en situaciones así. Sin embargo este caso dista de simplemente solo 2 personas perdidas o accidentadas de lo contrario no llamaria la atención; bastantes casualidades, incoherencias y contradicciones que no pueden ser ignoradas, signos de alerta o banderas rojas se les conoce.
Tambien te puedo colocar un ejemplo: hay casos de personas perdidas en la naturaleza o accidentadas que luego de un tiempo decidieron dejar una documentación de lo que les paso ya sea que contaban con una camara de video o un telefono, fotografiando y/o dandole mensajes a su seres queridos por si no fueran encontrados. En este caso que fueron 2 personas (y esto es algo a tener en cuenta por diferentes cuestiones) esto no sucedio a pesar que contaban con 2 telefonos y una camara fotografica, con bateria de gran duración (y eran chicas que tenian la tendencia de escribir en diarios personales). Solo tenemos unas misteriosas fotografías nocturnas una semana despues de la desaparación... y un archivo desaparecido tambien!
Hello. Thank you for the video. In which direction the drone is flying in the beginning, please? West or east? Is this direction in the beginning the background of the "summit"-pictures? Thank you, very much.
It starts flying towards the East, then a short stretch back towards the Mirador (West) before heading North.
(See map)
Hi, I'm gonna make a video about the Kris and Lisanne case using main sources like Matt articles at Imperfect Plan and the book 'Lost in the Jungle', so I want to ask if I can use your footages to illustrate a few minutes of the video? I'm a brazilian youtuber so there is not much content about this case here, would be of great help.
Yes of course, feel free to use them as long you quote the source.
Leia o blog da Scarlet R, acho que ela foi a pessoa que mais pesquisou esse caso, cobrindo uma grande gama de informações. Não esquece de dar os créditos pra ela também, ela merece!
O blog dela é o "Koude Kaas(cold case)."
Os vídeos do Romain complementam bastante as informações do blog da Scarlet R.
btw. have you also made a drone video of River 2 downstream? I can not see it in your map. It could be very interesting, too.
They got lost looking for the hidden waterfalls, they stepped out of the trail , then , knowing they had lost the trail , desperately trying to get back to the way out, they or one of them , Lisanne had an accident, broke her leg and foot and thus they continued to get away off the trail back, river down , looking for a safer place... that's why the rescue searchers couldn't find them on time! Poor girls! Rip...
no.
@@drdj2626 That's exactly what happened.
In this youtube channel "Juran Santos com o Projeto Aventura Animal" there is a interesting video "Ouvi uma onça de perto vocalizado" showing the dangers of tropical forests: holes, stones, cougars. Everything around 🤣
I've always said that this situation involving K&L suggests kidnapping, rape, robbery and murder. The other narratives seem to me very fanciful and contradictory!
My reasoning is based on this understanding.
1- The place of captivity and the larger remains must be close to this trail, the criminals certainly did not use the trails or the streams to remove the girls from that location, as someone would easily have witnessed this attempt to remove the girls. The footage in this video shows that if someone tried to move away from the trail towards the jungle to avoid witnesses, it would be impractical! At a distance of just 1km from the trail towards the jungle, what we have is very closed, dense vegetation, and several high mountains that are very difficult to climb. The geography of the place imposes the mobility of people through trails in the form of trenches between the mountain undulations.
2- Perhaps this is a possible explanation for why the malefactors got rid of the girls' belongings and scattered some remains along the trail, with the aim of discouraging new searches that could be more thorough and investigate nearby properties. Due to the geographic limitations of the place, the search parties must have arrived very close to the place of captivity or the lifeless bodies of these girls, and this scared the possible culprits! The reward for information was just another incentive for the bandits to draw attention away from themselves by getting rid of the stolen belongings. We shouldn't blame the parents in this, they were desperate to find their daughters still alive.
3- My guess is that between the Mirador and the place that is two hours beyond photo 508, some property or abandoned house was used as a captivity, place of dismemberment and tomb for the Dutch women.
4- The place of the night photos, it can be very far from the surroundings of the trail, because the bad guys could have taken the camera there, without having to take the girls along (who should have been dead by this time). That's probably why the night shot of Kris' hair and Lisanne's face doesn't feature the setting the photo was taken in.
Note: Romain, if you had used the drone at the Mirador, to show the trail towards the city of Boquete, it would have been very interesting too. Excellent work!!!😉👍
Revisa los capitulos en audios (p.c.) de "lost in Panamá". No solo por lo que concluye hay una cantidad de datos bastantes interesantes, de este caso no sabemos mejor dicho "creemos saber".
@@carlosbrizuela6521 Já assistir esse documentário.
The fact that there was substantial cash in the backpack when it was found means there were no bad actors involved. No one anywhere is going to kidnap two girls, murder them, and not take their money. Impossible and silly to imagine
@@donaldbiden1920I disagree. There are several cases where rape and homicide occur, and the victim's belongings are not taken, including money as well.
Not every murderer wants to kill to steal. There are other evil intentions as well, theft is just one of these evil intentions.
Discordo. Há diversos casos onde ocorre estupro e homicídio, e os pertences da vítima não são levados, incluso dinheiro também.
Nem todo homicida quer matar para roubar. Existem outras intenções perversas também, o roubo é somente uma dessas intenções malignas.
Getting lost is not a 'fanciful' theory, it is the most likely explanation.
Look at the place! Take a wrong turn and you could be well and truly stuffed.
J’aimerais bien connaître ton opinion sur la disparition de Kris et Lissanne maintenant que ru as poussé tes recherches jusqu'à leurs extrêmes limites .....crime ou mort accidentelle dans ce dédale vert ???.....
I don't know if you understand me correctly... But in the Chiriqui area, between 2021-2022 they have reported the disappearance of 15 young women and 10 men; They recently found a psychopath in that area who was linked to the disappearance of a woman...Which was found in pieces of meat in a plastic sack, he consumed the woman's meat as if it were a cow in his diary , until he gave the rest that was left to a neighbor and she realized that it was not normal meat... So now I am more than sure that it was a crime :( cannibals are not in the jungle... but rather they are civilized and put on shoes and shirt
@@TOM28 horrific !!........
Why didn't you follow the ridge line or be to the left of the ridge line. For one, you can see both sides of the ridge and two because almost all the passable spots they could have fallen are on the left side until you get near the bottom. It feels like people are deliberately trying not to do a good job just so people will have more questions.That is why you should have followed the ridge line.
Good god if it's upsetting you that much a drone and a plane ticket cost very little, go show em how it's done instead of whining in the comment section
why havent you as someone who makes videos about it?
@@bragebrageson2609 Money and Time
@@BackpackerCoach too bad, i saw your videos and feel like someone like you might have a chance to discover something new on site