I was gonna say, Immaru may be and ass, and I dont trust him at all, but I also cant argue with a lot of the things he’s been saying. Like, I dont think of our gaurdians as righteous protectors, not most of them. Most of us are just chasing power and loot. We have, in a way, been practicing the sword logic all along, just as the lucent hive are now. Crucible, Iron banner, prison of elders, trials of osiris, court of oryx… there’s a dozen examples of ways we’ve used each other and the enemy to get stronger through violence. Maybe it is to protect the city, the tower, and humanity, but it still is what it is.
@loganmiles7836 I agree with the fact when he and Savathun said we would call us killing things "self defense" because that's what we do we never took the time to consider the traveler would choose the hive. We wanted our power to be just for us. And i agree with most things apart from where Immaru says that the traveler was fixing the mistake it made when it choose us. That's a lie.
@@HERIOCLIZARD yeah I agree that’s a lie. But I don’t agree at least that I’d call it self defense. I call it farming, lol. Or maybe aggressive negotiations. I just realized, the guardians are like Destiny’s America and/or shonen protagonist. We keep beating the crap out of our greatest enemies until they give up, join us, and become our friends and allies.
This fight between the Knight and Wizard reminds me of how the Crucible plays out, especially in the lore. Kinda interesting how the act of someone killing their allies over and over can lead (directly or indirectly) to becoming a strong leader of their people: Oryx to his people, Ikora to ours.
I haven’t heard that “winner” quote by Immaru in game yet But that little metaphor taught me more about the final shape and the sword logic than any other part of the lore has. Glad to have it.
I think one misconception from the way you described the Witness’ Final Shape is that you suggested there would be something after it was reached. The truth is, the Witness does not want to make anything after the universe is gone. It wants no more chaos. No more life, no more death. It wants absolutely nothing whatsoever. As Immaru said, “it’s just flat. Static.”
Pretty much exactly this. There is no "after" the Final Shape, especially the Witness' version, in the most literal sense possible. The universe gets frozen at a single moment in time and then carved up into whatever it is the Witness decides is perfection. But for everything that isn't the Witness? How do you describe being suspended in a single moment for all eternity?
Alternatively, Immaru might not know exactly what the Witness wants. The Witness' people feared the seeming "chaos" the Light could bring, and wanted control over it. If you extend that mindset beyond the Light, any species outside their might also qualify as "chaotic". I'll have to double check what Bungie has said about the Final Shape, but its calcified moment could be one where only its own species exists, and in a way it defines as having meaning and purpose. Thinking back to the Marasenna, Mara had the opportunity to create the Awoken as a race of immortal gods in the Distributary, but chose not to, leading to the Theodicy War, and Alis Li's hatred of Mara when she was told the truth. In other words, the Witness might want what Mara denied the Awoken.
I wonder if we could convince Xivu Arath that the big fight she's been waiting for is actually against The Witness. After all, according to Sword Logic, only one of them can exist in the Hive's version of The Final Shape. Then she'll turn to fighting us afterward, but hopefully, we can at least use the 'enemy of my enemy' excuse with her until then
Her very nature is to unleash war or else she dies. There is no convincing her unless she lets us exorcise her worm, where she will most likely die, just like Savathûn did. She will die - it’s a question of it’s to the Guardians/Savathûn, or if it’s to the Witness. Letting her know of her hopeless situation may do something, but it won’t change the fact that she is destined to lose, despite the fact her nickname is “She Whose Victory is Idempotent”
Different views on the Final Shape have existed in the lore since Forsaken. In the Dreaming City pilgrimage patrols Shuro Chi tells us that the Awoken too believe in the Final Shape and work to achieve it. But their Final Shape is different to that of the Hive: "You Guardians embrace death. But, it is not final for you, and so it has no weight, no impact. The Awoken believe in its finality. We believe we are charting toward a final future, a final shape. It is our duty to help shape it before we are gone. ... We Awoken have one foot in the Darkness and one in the Light. Your Traveler is a gardener, so we garden, too. But the Darkness demands each thing fit to its final shape - and so we accept when something must die. ... The Hive preach the gospel of the final shape: death. In our way, we believe in its power, too - but the Hive have such limited imagination. They have not heard the song of the Sky. There are more ways to carve and craft than cutting and killing."
If Xivu Arath does split from the Witness, that may be the foreground for the Heresy episode that will be released next year. After all, it could be considered Heresy if her thinking about the final shape takes a sudden turn like that.
600 views in 6 minutes. I guess we all kinda thirsty for Byf content. These lore videos got me back into D2 and Byf, you are awesome! The detail you put in and the thoughts you add in make it so intriguing and interactive. Thank you for putting in so much effort to keep us up to date with the lore ❤
Ngl, his views and myelin's views are massively down. It may have brought you back, but many have moved on and probably won't return until final shape, if at all.
I feel, there is a greater point to take from this: the Hive are splintering. As with many great dynasties, many have fallen after their sole monarch is killed, as it is split up amongst successors, in this scenario, the split kingdom is eventually divided and conquered by external invaders. The same could happen with the Hive. A faction for Savathun, one for Xivu, and a final one that follows neither but only the Worm Gods. We may yet be able to divide and conythe Hive, eventually destroying Xivu and Savathun’s broods after we’ve defeated the Witness. Leaving the Worm Gods the last to hunt down to extinction, as was done to the Wish Dragons. After that, the Hive will devour each other, and we’ll have final completed Eris’ mission of destroying the Hive by violent genocide. Divide and conquer is how we will destroy the Hive after the Witness is dealt with. Their end is all but assured.
I don't think we *should* genocide any other species. If Savathun's Lucent Hive end up being able to be actual good guys, I don't think we should take them down. Sure, take down the warmongering hive sects that are endangering other species. Imo if an enemy stops being antagonistic (like Caital's Cabal), we should leave them be.
Hive’s final shape: One perfect Hive Callus’ final shape: Nothingness Witness’ final shape: A single moment of perfect order and control stretching on forever. Unending and unchanging
The Lucent Hive practicing Sword Logic puzzles me because of this Savathun quote from Altars of Reflection: "I didn't want to die, you know. I have always wanted to live. To sail endless seas, visit infinite skies. When I first learned the logic, this was my deepest confusion. The sword values life over everything else... but it is a life defined by constant death. A near-eternal winnowing. I began to wonder... when you've destroyed everything but yourself, what of life is left to live?" I wanted to add this here because this seems separate from the "2 lies, 2 truths" & them practicing Sword Logic reminds me of when the Scorn were practicing it during Season of the Lost, which they did after their interaction with the Witness on Presage
Well the fact the Lucent Hive Lightbearers don't crush each other's Ghosts after all that is telling too. This is a modified version of the Sword Logic, and it's effectively there version of the Crucible. The Lucent Brood have to keep sharp because they now are enemies with everyone. The Vanguard Alliance, The Witnesses' Forces, and The Vex. Not to mention, Immaru and Savathûn have no qualms with us killing their forces in the Spire instead of telling them to stand down. So take Savathûn's words with a huge grain of salt.
I think this links to a piece of lore where Savathun bargained with a Worm God to change her tithing method from death to deception. As long as Savathun lies, she'll live forevermore.
@@varnix1006 thing is that she had her worm removed, so at this point she's just trolling cause she wants to, not cause she has to if she wants to live, wish someone in game would point it out lol
I'm curious, Lore Daddy, have you ever considered going the route of the game theorists in the sense of uploading the audio/video to Spotify a few weeks after the UA-cam upload? I absolutely love listening to your videos and learning about all the lore, but I mostly do it while working, and as an electrician I'm sure you could guess how difficult that is with UA-cam. As always, love the videos and you do great work for the lore community!
Bungie said that the Witness could beat anyone in the Destiny universe 1v1. That kind of power would give him a lot of clout in the sword logic. Maybe that is why Xivu follows him. She may be so dedicated to the sword logic's version of the Final Shape, that she doesn't care if that shape is her or not. The other possibility is that, since Xivu doesn't know what the Witness's Final Shape entails, Xivu thinks that she will come out on top of the battle she thinks is going to happen to pair the whole universe down to the Final Shape, and that the Witness is just setting the stage for that fight.
The sword logic has always been one of the most fascinating things to do with the hive who are already my second favorite faction (first’s Eliksni btw) and Destiny in general. I’ve always found the idea of: “I beat you and therefore reserve the right to remain” very interesting, looking into its facts and flaws has been a cool journey, never thought I’d imagine being in a fictional world discussing theology with a godlike being of wrath and war in the form of Xivu Arath, but I have. Anything that evokes that is always a win! (Also, can we just address that we have had almost 8 years of Destiny, 2 hive raids, about 6 or 7 hive strikes, countless missions and lore tabs on them with the SWORD logic being a central part of most of it… and yet, we still don’t have a proper hive themed sword besides 2 taken swords and an ornament for The Lament… that irks me immeasurably)
Hi Byf. Love your work. Your channel is half the fun of Destiny to me. No joke. Thank you for all of your hard work. When you were talking about the Lucent Hive maintaining the Sword Logic by continually killing each other and resurrecting to do it again, I couldn’t help but immediately think of the purpose of the Crucible where Guardians kill each other over and over and for the same purpose: steel sharpens steel. We make ourselves stronger just as the Lucent Hive are doing. And we and they are able to do that because of the exact same mechanism-resurrection through the Light by our Ghosts. What a fun parallel between us and the Hive the story is giving us. But I wonder if that realization could occur between the Guardians and the Lucent Hive. From their new Sword Logic ritual available to them through resurrection, could they not perceive the Crucible as a Sword Logic ritual we’ve been doing all along? And could the Guardians not come to see that this new Lucent Hive ritual based on Sword Logic is exactly the same as the Crucible? What an interesting commonality to share. Perhaps the LH could embrace us as brothers in the Sword Logic. And perhaps we could come to see the Sword Logic as practiced by the LH and completely divorced from the Witness’s Final Shape as a logic-as they now practice it-that has merit that we can embrace just as we have embraced and mastered Darkness powers? I’m not sure what that could usher in, but there’s certainly a possibility of establishing a different, perhaps mutually respectful, relationship between them and us. Especially since we have a Hive God of our own. Perhaps a chance for true alliance beyond just having a common enemy. Steel sharpening steel that both satisfies the Sword Logic and our Destiny to protect life. It just struck me as one of the few things we share in common and for exactly the same purpose. We kill each other just as they do, and we do it for the same reason. Maybe I just want to see a Hive/Guardian Crucible match! But that’s kind of what the tithe ritual for Eris is doing-except we’re killing them for good.
Damn... I didn't think about it that way. The light is actually giving even non-ascendant hives to refine themselves the same way the siblings (Oryx, Savathun, and Xivu Arath) did. They rage from the thought of being brought back, and use that rage to better their way of killing. With light, one doesn't need to be an ascendant to attain their final shape.
One thing that you could talk about Byf is how lonely and sad our guardian's life is here is what i mean. How many of our friends have died since we became a guardian? Most of the time the guardian is alone exepct for their ghost. They barely talk not because they dont want to but i think ita because they have nobody to talk to it's a lonely isolating and sad life the guardian has at the end of their life will be a road of dead bodies of friends and enemies alike at the end of the day. I think the Guardian has a blast radius and sadly while enemies get caught in it so do our friends
This difference in ideology between the Witness and the Hive also seems to support the theory that the entity speaking to us in Unveiling, and who spoke to Oryx in the books of sorrow, is indeed the Winnower and not the Witness. The entity in Unveiling and the BoS seems to revel in the sword-logic-adjacent way of doing things. It speaks of how glorious and majestic it is that the final shape is to be determined by the sword logic. "That one ultimate arbiter, the only judge, the power that is its own metric and its own source-existence, at any cost." It also begs an interesting question - the hive were created at the behest of the Witness, yet Oryx and his sword logic would seem to be closer to the Winnower's own ideas than even the Witness. The Witness was created by the Veil, a darkness analogue to the Traveler, but it seems to be pursuing a goal with a different ideology than that darkness itself. Does the Winnower care, or does none of it matter as long as the final shape is achieved, since that is what the Winnower wants too? Would the Winnower support the Witness?
Something that popped into my head while listening to this video: It would be cool if a sword logic devoted culture had simple machines throughout their architecture and tech. They are what is left when everything unnecessary is taken away. And could be seen as sacred.
Here's something to think about: The Lucent Hive that were talked about in the lore of the Hexed Ghost Shell are doing what we are doing, compare what the two Lucent Hive are doing to what we do in the crucible, raids, strikes, etc. We are no different than the Hive, sure we do not tithe ourselves to worm gods or hive gods, we cannot create throne worlds to keep ourselves truly alive, but if there are similar factors that we have to the Hive, it is these: We gain power through the connection of Light and Darkness, we defeat enemies to get more powerful while also challenging stronger foes to get even stronger, and finally; we have our ghosts keeping us alive, if we lose our ghost and die, then we are unworthy of existing. Immaru says we're not special, but our methods of fighting and getting strong is no different than the sword logic.
i think a board game would be a good analogy to the separate views of the final shap the hive thinks its the winner of the game whie the witness wants to flips the board halfway through the game so there is no winner and the whole game was all for naught
Maybe there's another reason why the Witness doesn't just spell out what the Final Shape is specifically to anyone, even it's Disciples. Not because it can't be comprehended, but because the truth could probably turn even entities as devout to the Witness as a Disciple is against it.
The Witness tricked her into serving them instead of a more appreciative master, the Winnower, who actually cared for his servants, key point being how he refers to his most devout servant ”my man Oryx” the Witness would never regard a disciple in that manner
@@CerberusPlusOne They’re not, the Veil is to the Winnower what the Traveler is to the Gardener, the Witness is the binded souls of a race that could use both light and dark, also they’re different when speaking in the lore, the Witness uses group pronouns and the Winnower uses singular pronouns, also the Winnower speaks highly of his servants like Oryx, while the Witness doesn’t care much for their disciples
The hives final shape only consists of those deemed strong enough while the witness seems to want to ossify time by ending all torment and pain through his form of final shape but the hives logic consistently only puts into place a final shape where everyone is strong enough to fend themselves and also tale what they seem to be weaker
My question is (and it doesn't have to be something they'd declare themselves) what is the guardians version of the final shape. Whether they are aware of having one or not. Would it stem from their ability to repeatedly die rather than that of defeating others?
Given the course of the story and the forming of alliances, it would be beyond perfect for one final alliance with the Fallen, the Cabal and the Hive in the Final Shape. The chaotic intermingling of disparate forces triumphing over the ruthless pragmatism of the Witness
Well, I think I've seen implied in the sword logic lore and dialogue the fact that suffering arises from being sensitive to injustice, injustice comes from having expectations from an uncaring universe, and expectations only exist because of actions associated with how the light interacts as sharing, emparhy, or mercy from "higher beings" to "lesser beings". Those acts make both the lesser and higher beings weaker for it. To remove suffering you need to remove the concept of injustice, to remove injustice you need to get rid of expectations, to remove expectations you need to rid the universe of empathy, mercy, sharing etc, and for that you have to destroy their practitioners.
Maybe we can drive a wedge between Xivu and the Witness...maybe. But what if we do? Sure the Witness loses an ally, but so far the Witness doesn't have to care. And then we have both the Witness (who already has the Traveler captured) on one side, and a potentially united Hive force made up of wrathborn and the lucent brood...with us stuck in the middle. In my opinion, getting Xivu to part ways of the witness won't give any meaningful change to humanity's situation as that will not prevent Xivu and Savathun from launching all out assaults on us while we're hamstrung with the witness. I think our best strategy is to take Xivu off the field entirely, which means leveraging Eris and putting Xivu in an impossible situation: be true to her self by making war and in doing so give a tithe of unprecedented power to Eris as she's acting out of vengeance, or not doing that and in doing so not mantle the aspect of war and have her worm consume her. After that's done, we get what we need from savathun, deal with the witness, and probably have to kill savathun again, this time crushing immaru. Of course, every step in that is easier said than done and there's no shortage of things that could go sideways while we're trying to enact that plan (other disciples of the witness showing up, Savathun betraying us from the moment she's resurrected, whatever is going on with the shadow legion making things complicated, the vex doing what they do, eramis making a mess of things, or something completely different).
the "family" angle they've really been needling with Xivu this season is one of its most rousing successes for me. Xivu might not get her own expansion, but having her as a main antagonist force in several seasons, plus the stellar character work they've put in for her this season, and in the logs for GOTD, i think she'll still measure up quite nicely to her siblings.
Parts of me wonder if The Witness even knows what The Final Shape at this point. What I mean is that it may not have the exact details of what it should look like or how it should be, only a vague idea. Imagine if over the eons in it's cosmocidal campaign, The Witness still can't figure out what The Final Shape is...yet absolutely believes there is one and it exists to bring about whatever it is. Ahsa said it's looking for something "perfected", but perfection is a very elusive and very slippery thing.
I just noticed something on the ghost shell lore, the knight was described as having a cleaver dripping with solar fire. This confirms that they are able to use the other aspects of light, meaning that knights can use more than just void, acolytes can use more than just solar, and wizards can use more than just arc
Could the Heresy episode next year revolve around reviving Oryx? It can be backed by a few ideas: 1) Heresy is the title, and necromancy and revival is heresy in the eyes of the Sword Logic. 2) We're (hopefully) not going to be flat out killing Xivu Arath in a season, so we would instead need a large enough playing card to convince her to turn her focus to the Witness' forces instead. Oryx' revival through "understanding the universe", or more likely fitting the name, via a Ghost, may be a large enough chip to turn her focus. 3) We still have the assumedly true mention of "The Taken King will rise again" from Savathun's Alters of Reflection (though they can't necessarily be trusted as usual). One may say Ghosts of the Deep could be relevant to that, but Oryx wasn't actually revived. That said, it could just as easily deal with the ramifications of Xivu's failure to defeat us through war, and thus that "heresy" is eating away at her and the episode will explore the ramifications of that. A bunch of different options.
Something I'm curious about the Hive. Suppose in your metaphor of Final Shape Gamma, that one Hive is still standing at the end. Does it still need to tithe to its worm to survive? Or has it fed so much at this point that it would starve in a matter of seconds?
So all we need to do is beat her in combat, point out the wintness' deception, and promise her an eternity of war and battle in exchange for her help in destroying the true enemy of the sword logic
Id assume this is the case for the Vex as well. Of course the Sol Divisive follow the Witness’ final shape, however the rest of the vex I’m pretty sure have their own
Logically it’s hilarious if the witness stopped throwing a fit and joined forces with us we’d be able to dictate balance throughout esp with the help of the 9 and the fact that their existence is based on simply acknowledging they exist, entities tied into the light and dark that flow through the destiny universe
Turned out, Tesselation's lore tab actually does a great job of explaining what the final shape is. It's sort of a universe where only the things that have value, purpose, or meaning exists. The unneeded things that simply fills in the background are cut off that, so they won't have to suffer. My best way to describe it is, think of a game where there are no random NPCs. The only thing in the game are the characters that had a purpose in the story. The unnecessary NPCs that are just there for the game's atmosphere is removed.
Hey byf, hope you see this: I’ve played destiny off and on for years, but ngl I’ve never really payed attention to the lore. However with things ramping up, it’s starting to really intrigue me. I’m trying to get a sense of the whole timeline of destiny but as you know it’s MASSIVE, and I’m having a hard time finding a good point to start. My question would be, do you think in the final weeks leading up to TFS, you could possibly release a lore video that basically covers all of destiny’s history from d1 all the way to d2? Obviously an insanely detailed recap would be way too long, but a nice timeline of events with maybe the more impactful moments explained would be so fkin sick dude. Either way loving the channel 🔥🤙🏼
I believe that although they are different they are not mutually exclusive, if Xivu and her brood are the last ones standing right before The Witness ends the universe then they would have achieved their own Final Shape.
@@TheCBoysDotCom well, even if they think they can take on The Witness that would still follow their idea of The Final Shape, whether they can achieve or not its another matter.
I dont think the witness wants to delete everything, he wants to freeze it. Frozen in time, numbed, but still free to think, like the matrix. Where nothing grows or dies. Where the darkness and the light are innate.
I wonder if xivu is ever gonna find out about how she was lied to and manipulated into going down in the deep before she could be claimed by the sky and how she will react to it
What an awesome video. I just love the Hive, its culture and logics, so I'm enjoying this season's lore a lot. I think we will, of course, face Xivu'Arath, but I also think that Savathûn will convince her to switch against the Witness. Once both of the sisters have the same goal, they might even join forces. Xivu wanted to protect her family, and wants to follow the tennets of the Sword Logic, but she has to realize that the Witness does not follow those tennets, nor has the same goal as her in mind. I think we will face Xivu, she will come to realize that she's in the wrong side of this war, and she will join her sister. Against the Witness and, once they've 'used us' to defeat it, perhaps against us once again. Maybe what remains of the Hive after Final Shape is what we will encounter in their Chronicle's chapter, as they still pursue their Final Shape.
I feel like I’m TWQ Bungie was hinting towards the lucent hive loosening their hive ways and becoming less brutal. I feel like this changed somewhere along the way. Low key I wish they were chill enough to ally with
I have said this for a long while now, however when it comes to Savathun I don’t belive at this point that she has ever truly stood against us. I also now belive I know that her wish was to Riven, she wanted the light and to be free of the curse of her worm and the tangential loyalty to the Witness. I know that she experimented on guardians and even “possessed” Osiris, but every one of her actions that we have seen in the lore presented to us, have been a means to an end and that end? Freedom
The wording of Savathun's final shape leaves room for several species/beings to be included in the Final Shape. Iirc, Xivu and Oryx's wording implies only a single being can be in the Final Shape. The Witness's wording could any number, but the more expansive descriptions for them, says potentially nothing exists at all, no consciousness at all.
The goofiness of the Witness's plan is to end chaos and suffering by introducing a massive amount of chaos and suffering in the process. In that sense they are the classic "become what you hate," kind of villain
Calus’s interpretation might help us to better understand the Witness’ Final Shape, though skewed. Calus believes the Black Edge will sunder the universe to nothing, rather than the Hive’s perspective of a final contender but after further dialogue with the Witness, he gains new perspective on the details of that. (In Duality, Calus says that the Witness seeks the nothingness between the threads of Light and Dark in the tapestry of reality). The Witness seeks Nothingness but the choice word used for the Witness is “Calcify”, meaning to harden through deposition or conversion into calcium. A reduction is what is aimed at here. We’ve seen examples of this reduction in Clovis’ Clarity which reduces Radiolaria from living matter to bare bone molecules. With the Traveler’s power of matter, the Witness will reduce everything down to a reverse embryo where instead of basic matter with the potential for life, it will have the potential for Nothing. (Nezarec might also perceive the Final Shape that way too but with him subsisting on a weird form of suffering that is reduced since he can exist without the need for a form, like a metaphysical leech)
I think it is interesting that all of the darkness ideologies are forms of nihilism. Examples: The Sword Logic - Nietzsche's will to power: Might makes right, create your own meaning through power. Callus - Optimistic nihilism: nothing matters so just do whatever gives you pleasure.
"Puppets. All of them. Every last Krill. Every last Hive. I once believed in a higher calling as they do, but you know that. You rescued me from that. Eternal appreciation doesn't even scratch the surface of what I owe you for the gifts you gave me. I know you hoped the Hive would see it too. We tried. We really did. But we had to let them struggle... All because of a belief that purpose had finally found them. Given them strength to conquer an oppressive homeworld. How else were they to grow? Their loss, however, is for them to grieve, not us. We will continue forward. Greater purpose awaits, my Witness".
I think you are right in that we are making Xivu stronger so that she can challenge Eris and strike her down in vengeance only to make Eris rise and defeat her.
I think the lucent brood and Savathun are in league with the Winnower while appearing to be on the Gardener’s side , the Hive Sword logic is the Winnower’s so them practicing his philosophy kinda shows where they’re true allegiance lies
Technically the Lucent Hive are…? Or at least, we have the same objective: bring down Xivu Arath. If the LH do indeed still believe in the sword logic, then they are, in essence, sacrificing themselves so we can tithe to Eris and bring down Xivu. To the Hive, love is war due to the sword logic, so we are, in a way, showing them love my slaughtering them to accomplish their/our goal.
4:35 I think your idea that the hive's final shape has a lot of suffering is a misunderstanding. It will be REACHED through suffering, but the final shape that the hive strive for itself, is at the end of the day, unchanging and without suffering, because that's what makes it the final shape. Ironically, the hive, or any given hive, could never be the final shape, because their worms would demand endless tribute, or else devour the hive. If the hive were the final shape, with nothing left to conquer or cut away, they would simply die. I think this is a very clever and intentional part of their servitude designed by the Witness, to ensure the Hive could never take what the Witness is using them to achieve.
That also means that Nezarec would also not be a part of the Witnesses final shape as he is the god of tournament and Witnesses doesn't want tournament in the first place.
The Witness seeks stasis - nothing changes, nothing hurts, nothing grows. Sword Logic, on the other hand, posits an end state of maximum conflict, where the only things that remain are constantly striving against each other to remain sharp. These are not compatible visions of the future.
Why does it matter? it matters because something else had to give the worm gods that iteration of the sword logic, and since this would have been before Rhulk recruited them, there’s only one being who that could be the Winnower himself, in unveiling the Winnower regards Oryx as his finest servant, he even calls him “my man Oryx”, he speaks in a completely different manner than the Witness via singular pronouns, the Winnower is also referenced in a vision Saint XIV has, the Gardener speaks to Saint as a mother does to her child and she says he gets a certain trait from his father… The Winnower
I think that the hive “final shape” is the natural one (ie intended by the gardener and the winnower) as thats also what the vex strive to and the witness seeks a final shape that is in defiance of them.
Everyone have their own "final shape". Especially now, when thanks to Witness, everybody knows about the Vail. Perhaps the end of the story will be OUR final shape. Because when we defeat Witness, there will be peace, and over some time human race can get to the point where we will be as concern about existance as Witness's race once was.
If we can surprise the Hive god of Cunning with a revalation bold enough to shake her convictions, then I'm certain we can do the same for Xivu Arath. Although we may need to take a different approach. In other words, fight Xivu to a stale mate, reveal to her a hidden truth, and change her perspective. I have a feeling it will provide a respite long enough for us to mount an assault on the Witness and it's "Final Shape".
Those Lucent Guardians were basically playing Crucible....
I was gonna say, Immaru may be and ass, and I dont trust him at all, but I also cant argue with a lot of the things he’s been saying. Like, I dont think of our gaurdians as righteous protectors, not most of them. Most of us are just chasing power and loot. We have, in a way, been practicing the sword logic all along, just as the lucent hive are now. Crucible, Iron banner, prison of elders, trials of osiris, court of oryx… there’s a dozen examples of ways we’ve used each other and the enemy to get stronger through violence. Maybe it is to protect the city, the tower, and humanity, but it still is what it is.
@loganmiles7836 I agree with the fact when he and Savathun said we would call us killing things "self defense" because that's what we do we never took the time to consider the traveler would choose the hive. We wanted our power to be just for us. And i agree with most things apart from where Immaru says that the traveler was fixing the mistake it made when it choose us. That's a lie.
@@HERIOCLIZARDyeah because Savathuun herself said “it didn’t choose us, it chose me. I pushed things forward from there”
@@HERIOCLIZARD yeah I agree that’s a lie. But I don’t agree at least that I’d call it self defense. I call it farming, lol. Or maybe aggressive negotiations. I just realized, the guardians are like Destiny’s America and/or shonen protagonist. We keep beating the crap out of our greatest enemies until they give up, join us, and become our friends and allies.
@@loganmiles7836 no I mean Savathun said we would call it self defense she says this in a recording after a encounter with the leviathan eater
This fight between the Knight and Wizard reminds me of how the Crucible plays out, especially in the lore. Kinda interesting how the act of someone killing their allies over and over can lead (directly or indirectly) to becoming a strong leader of their people: Oryx to his people, Ikora to ours.
I haven’t heard that “winner” quote by Immaru in game yet
But that little metaphor taught me more about the final shape and the sword logic than any other part of the lore has. Glad to have it.
I think one misconception from the way you described the Witness’ Final Shape is that you suggested there would be something after it was reached. The truth is, the Witness does not want to make anything after the universe is gone. It wants no more chaos. No more life, no more death. It wants absolutely nothing whatsoever. As Immaru said, “it’s just flat. Static.”
Pretty much exactly this. There is no "after" the Final Shape, especially the Witness' version, in the most literal sense possible. The universe gets frozen at a single moment in time and then carved up into whatever it is the Witness decides is perfection.
But for everything that isn't the Witness? How do you describe being suspended in a single moment for all eternity?
The way I see the witness’ final shape is that it just wants a big universal pause button that can only be pressed once
Heaven/hell?
That's how I think of it, since time is a property of the universe and matter.
Two truths, two lies: The Witness seeks the Final Shape, and the Final Shape is Nothing
Alternatively, Immaru might not know exactly what the Witness wants. The Witness' people feared the seeming "chaos" the Light could bring, and wanted control over it.
If you extend that mindset beyond the Light, any species outside their might also qualify as "chaotic".
I'll have to double check what Bungie has said about the Final Shape, but its calcified moment could be one where only its own species exists, and in a way it defines as having meaning and purpose.
Thinking back to the Marasenna, Mara had the opportunity to create the Awoken as a race of immortal gods in the Distributary, but chose not to, leading to the Theodicy War, and Alis Li's hatred of Mara when she was told the truth.
In other words, the Witness might want what Mara denied the Awoken.
I wonder if we could convince Xivu Arath that the big fight she's been waiting for is actually against The Witness. After all, according to Sword Logic, only one of them can exist in the Hive's version of The Final Shape. Then she'll turn to fighting us afterward, but hopefully, we can at least use the 'enemy of my enemy' excuse with her until then
That would be so cool.
Her very nature is to unleash war or else she dies. There is no convincing her unless she lets us exorcise her worm, where she will most likely die, just like Savathûn did.
She will die - it’s a question of it’s to the Guardians/Savathûn, or if it’s to the Witness. Letting her know of her hopeless situation may do something, but it won’t change the fact that she is destined to lose, despite the fact her nickname is “She Whose Victory is Idempotent”
The Hive's final shape is a square. While the Witness' is a rhombus
Thats why they must die. Only round shapes are allowed
The Hive’s final shape is the Winnower’s final shape because he regards Oryx as “my man” the Witness wouldn’t do this
But they both go in the square hole.
It's all about perspective...
Different views on the Final Shape have existed in the lore since Forsaken. In the Dreaming City pilgrimage patrols Shuro Chi tells us that the Awoken too believe in the Final Shape and work to achieve it. But their Final Shape is different to that of the Hive:
"You Guardians embrace death. But, it is not final for you, and so it has no weight, no impact. The Awoken believe in its finality. We believe we are charting toward a final future, a final shape. It is our duty to help shape it before we are gone.
...
We Awoken have one foot in the Darkness and one in the Light. Your Traveler is a gardener, so we garden, too. But the Darkness demands each thing fit to its final shape - and so we accept when something must die.
...
The Hive preach the gospel of the final shape: death. In our way, we believe in its power, too - but the Hive have such limited imagination. They have not heard the song of the Sky. There are more ways to carve and craft than cutting and killing."
I just realized that the Hive’s Final Shape could simply be equated to a battle royale.
If Xivu Arath does split from the Witness, that may be the foreground for the Heresy episode that will be released next year. After all, it could be considered Heresy if her thinking about the final shape takes a sudden turn like that.
600 views in 6 minutes. I guess we all kinda thirsty for Byf content.
These lore videos got me back into D2 and Byf, you are awesome! The detail you put in and the thoughts you add in make it so intriguing and interactive. Thank you for putting in so much effort to keep us up to date with the lore ❤
Ngl, his views and myelin's views are massively down. It may have brought you back, but many have moved on and probably won't return until final shape, if at all.
1.2 mil subs.... I'd hope that there are 1.2m views.
Ah well... I know I'm here everyday.... COME BACK GUARDIANS
I feel, there is a greater point to take from this: the Hive are splintering. As with many great dynasties, many have fallen after their sole monarch is killed, as it is split up amongst successors, in this scenario, the split kingdom is eventually divided and conquered by external invaders. The same could happen with the Hive. A faction for Savathun, one for Xivu, and a final one that follows neither but only the Worm Gods. We may yet be able to divide and conythe Hive, eventually destroying Xivu and Savathun’s broods after we’ve defeated the Witness. Leaving the Worm Gods the last to hunt down to extinction, as was done to the Wish Dragons. After that, the Hive will devour each other, and we’ll have final completed Eris’ mission of destroying the Hive by violent genocide. Divide and conquer is how we will destroy the Hive after the Witness is dealt with. Their end is all but assured.
I don't think we *should* genocide any other species. If Savathun's Lucent Hive end up being able to be actual good guys, I don't think we should take them down. Sure, take down the warmongering hive sects that are endangering other species. Imo if an enemy stops being antagonistic (like Caital's Cabal), we should leave them be.
Hive’s final shape: One perfect Hive
Callus’ final shape: Nothingness
Witness’ final shape: A single moment of perfect order and control stretching on forever. Unending and unchanging
The Lucent Hive practicing Sword Logic puzzles me because of this Savathun quote from Altars of Reflection: "I didn't want to die, you know. I have always wanted to live. To sail endless seas, visit infinite skies. When I first learned the logic, this was my deepest confusion. The sword values life over everything else... but it is a life defined by constant death. A near-eternal winnowing. I began to wonder... when you've destroyed everything but yourself, what of life is left to live?"
I wanted to add this here because this seems separate from the "2 lies, 2 truths"
& them practicing Sword Logic reminds me of when the Scorn were practicing it during Season of the Lost, which they did after their interaction with the Witness on Presage
Well the fact the Lucent Hive Lightbearers don't crush each other's Ghosts after all that is telling too.
This is a modified version of the Sword Logic, and it's effectively there version of the Crucible. The Lucent Brood have to keep sharp because they now are enemies with everyone. The Vanguard Alliance, The Witnesses' Forces, and The Vex.
Not to mention, Immaru and Savathûn have no qualms with us killing their forces in the Spire instead of telling them to stand down. So take Savathûn's words with a huge grain of salt.
I think this links to a piece of lore where Savathun bargained with a Worm God to change her tithing method from death to deception. As long as Savathun lies, she'll live forevermore.
@@varnix1006 thing is that she had her worm removed, so at this point she's just trolling cause she wants to, not cause she has to if she wants to live, wish someone in game would point it out lol
I'm curious, Lore Daddy, have you ever considered going the route of the game theorists in the sense of uploading the audio/video to Spotify a few weeks after the UA-cam upload? I absolutely love listening to your videos and learning about all the lore, but I mostly do it while working, and as an electrician I'm sure you could guess how difficult that is with UA-cam.
As always, love the videos and you do great work for the lore community!
Bungie said that the Witness could beat anyone in the Destiny universe 1v1. That kind of power would give him a lot of clout in the sword logic. Maybe that is why Xivu follows him. She may be so dedicated to the sword logic's version of the Final Shape, that she doesn't care if that shape is her or not. The other possibility is that, since Xivu doesn't know what the Witness's Final Shape entails, Xivu thinks that she will come out on top of the battle she thinks is going to happen to pair the whole universe down to the Final Shape, and that the Witness is just setting the stage for that fight.
yeah, i don't think anybody can beat the witness, he opened the traveler and wiped out a wave of guardians with a flick of his wrist
The sword logic has always been one of the most fascinating things to do with the hive who are already my second favorite faction (first’s Eliksni btw) and Destiny in general.
I’ve always found the idea of: “I beat you and therefore reserve the right to remain” very interesting, looking into its facts and flaws has been a cool journey, never thought I’d imagine being in a fictional world discussing theology with a godlike being of wrath and war in the form of Xivu Arath, but I have. Anything that evokes that is always a win!
(Also, can we just address that we have had almost 8 years of Destiny, 2 hive raids, about 6 or 7 hive strikes, countless missions and lore tabs on them with the SWORD logic being a central part of most of it… and yet, we still don’t have a proper hive themed sword besides 2 taken swords and an ornament for The Lament… that irks me immeasurably)
Hi Byf. Love your work. Your channel is half the fun of Destiny to me. No joke. Thank you for all of your hard work.
When you were talking about the Lucent Hive maintaining the Sword Logic by continually killing each other and resurrecting to do it again, I couldn’t help but immediately think of the purpose of the Crucible where Guardians kill each other over and over and for the same purpose: steel sharpens steel. We make ourselves stronger just as the Lucent Hive are doing. And we and they are able to do that because of the exact same mechanism-resurrection through the Light by our Ghosts. What a fun parallel between us and the Hive the story is giving us. But I wonder if that realization could occur between the Guardians and the Lucent Hive. From their new Sword Logic ritual available to them through resurrection, could they not perceive the Crucible as a Sword Logic ritual we’ve been doing all along? And could the Guardians not come to see that this new Lucent Hive ritual based on Sword Logic is exactly the same as the Crucible? What an interesting commonality to share. Perhaps the LH could embrace us as brothers in the Sword Logic. And perhaps we could come to see the Sword Logic as practiced by the LH and completely divorced from the Witness’s Final Shape as a logic-as they now practice it-that has merit that we can embrace just as we have embraced and mastered Darkness powers? I’m not sure what that could usher in, but there’s certainly a possibility of establishing a different, perhaps mutually respectful, relationship between them and us. Especially since we have a Hive God of our own. Perhaps a chance for true alliance beyond just having a common enemy. Steel sharpening steel that both satisfies the Sword Logic and our Destiny to protect life. It just struck me as one of the few things we share in common and for exactly the same purpose. We kill each other just as they do, and we do it for the same reason. Maybe I just want to see a Hive/Guardian Crucible match! But that’s kind of what the tithe ritual for Eris is doing-except we’re killing them for good.
Your explanation of sword logic in a crucible analogy would be such a fun way to implement tournament style gameplay into the crucible.
Xivu: “I am war!”
Guardians: “time to make a new gun”
Hive: There can be only one.
The Witness: Wrong. We are the inevitable.
Damn... I didn't think about it that way. The light is actually giving even non-ascendant hives to refine themselves the same way the siblings (Oryx, Savathun, and Xivu Arath) did. They rage from the thought of being brought back, and use that rage to better their way of killing. With light, one doesn't need to be an ascendant to attain their final shape.
I really want to see Finch revive his knight.
One thing that you could talk about Byf is how lonely and sad our guardian's life is here is what i mean.
How many of our friends have died since we became a guardian? Most of the time the guardian is alone exepct for their ghost. They barely talk not because they dont want to but i think ita because they have nobody to talk to it's a lonely isolating and sad life the guardian has at the end of their life will be a road of dead bodies of friends and enemies alike at the end of the day.
I think the Guardian has a blast radius and sadly while enemies get caught in it so do our friends
The Petra Venj Syndrome lmao. Taking the enemy out at the cost of our friends.
I’d like a vid on this too. It’s hard to picture why the Guardian keeps fighting, as they seem to have no one to fight for
Well this is an interesting dilemma
An ideology fight between walking skeletons and an immortal skinwalker
I’m a simple man, i see a byf video, i click
Shut up bot
Same
What happened to zavala in your picture lmaooo
@@ivanreyes371 I’m Vuvuzela. Zavala’s long lost brother
This difference in ideology between the Witness and the Hive also seems to support the theory that the entity speaking to us in Unveiling, and who spoke to Oryx in the books of sorrow, is indeed the Winnower and not the Witness. The entity in Unveiling and the BoS seems to revel in the sword-logic-adjacent way of doing things. It speaks of how glorious and majestic it is that the final shape is to be determined by the sword logic. "That one ultimate arbiter, the only judge, the power that is its own metric and its own source-existence, at any cost."
It also begs an interesting question - the hive were created at the behest of the Witness, yet Oryx and his sword logic would seem to be closer to the Winnower's own ideas than even the Witness. The Witness was created by the Veil, a darkness analogue to the Traveler, but it seems to be pursuing a goal with a different ideology than that darkness itself. Does the Winnower care, or does none of it matter as long as the final shape is achieved, since that is what the Winnower wants too? Would the Winnower support the Witness?
I have an old Quickdraw Celerity roll with appended mag. Havent used it much.
Something that popped into my head while listening to this video: It would be cool if a sword logic devoted culture had simple machines throughout their architecture and tech. They are what is left when everything unnecessary is taken away. And could be seen as sacred.
Here's something to think about:
The Lucent Hive that were talked about in the lore of the Hexed Ghost Shell are doing what we are doing, compare what the two Lucent Hive are doing to what we do in the crucible, raids, strikes, etc.
We are no different than the Hive, sure we do not tithe ourselves to worm gods or hive gods, we cannot create throne worlds to keep ourselves truly alive, but if there are similar factors that we have to the Hive, it is these: We gain power through the connection of Light and Darkness, we defeat enemies to get more powerful while also challenging stronger foes to get even stronger, and finally; we have our ghosts keeping us alive, if we lose our ghost and die, then we are unworthy of existing.
Immaru says we're not special, but our methods of fighting and getting strong is no different than the sword logic.
@@JackofAllGigs I already mentioned our ghosts keeping us alive, amd if we lose our ghosts and die, that's it.
i think a board game would be a good analogy to the separate views of the final shap the hive thinks its the winner of the game whie the witness wants to flips the board halfway through the game so there is no winner and the whole game was all for naught
Wouldn't this then inherently make the Hive enemies of the Witness? Does Xivu just not know the Witness is playing her?
Maybe there's another reason why the Witness doesn't just spell out what the Final Shape is specifically to anyone, even it's Disciples.
Not because it can't be comprehended, but because the truth could probably turn even entities as devout to the Witness as a Disciple is against it.
nope. she as absolutely no idea that shes being manipulated.
The Witness tricked her into serving them instead of a more appreciative master, the Winnower, who actually cared for his servants, key point being how he refers to his most devout servant ”my man Oryx” the Witness would never regard a disciple in that manner
@@lucaricci1987 Are you saying that the Witness is a different entity to the Winnower? I'm pretty sure they're one and the same.
@@CerberusPlusOne They’re not, the Veil is to the Winnower what the Traveler is to the Gardener, the Witness is the binded souls of a race that could use both light and dark, also they’re different when speaking in the lore, the Witness uses group pronouns and the Winnower uses singular pronouns, also the Winnower speaks highly of his servants like Oryx, while the Witness doesn’t care much for their disciples
The hives final shape only consists of those deemed strong enough while the witness seems to want to ossify time by ending all torment and pain through his form of final shape but the hives logic consistently only puts into place a final shape where everyone is strong enough to fend themselves and also tale what they seem to be weaker
My question is (and it doesn't have to be something they'd declare themselves) what is the guardians version of the final shape. Whether they are aware of having one or not.
Would it stem from their ability to repeatedly die rather than that of defeating others?
Given the course of the story and the forming of alliances, it would be beyond perfect for one final alliance with the Fallen, the Cabal and the Hive in the Final Shape. The chaotic intermingling of disparate forces triumphing over the ruthless pragmatism of the Witness
Well, I think I've seen implied in the sword logic lore and dialogue the fact that suffering arises from being sensitive to injustice, injustice comes from having expectations from an uncaring universe, and expectations only exist because of actions associated with how the light interacts as sharing, emparhy, or mercy from "higher beings" to "lesser beings". Those acts make both the lesser and higher beings weaker for it.
To remove suffering you need to remove the concept of injustice, to remove injustice you need to get rid of expectations, to remove expectations you need to rid the universe of empathy, mercy, sharing etc, and for that you have to destroy their practitioners.
Maybe we can drive a wedge between Xivu and the Witness...maybe. But what if we do? Sure the Witness loses an ally, but so far the Witness doesn't have to care. And then we have both the Witness (who already has the Traveler captured) on one side, and a potentially united Hive force made up of wrathborn and the lucent brood...with us stuck in the middle. In my opinion, getting Xivu to part ways of the witness won't give any meaningful change to humanity's situation as that will not prevent Xivu and Savathun from launching all out assaults on us while we're hamstrung with the witness.
I think our best strategy is to take Xivu off the field entirely, which means leveraging Eris and putting Xivu in an impossible situation: be true to her self by making war and in doing so give a tithe of unprecedented power to Eris as she's acting out of vengeance, or not doing that and in doing so not mantle the aspect of war and have her worm consume her. After that's done, we get what we need from savathun, deal with the witness, and probably have to kill savathun again, this time crushing immaru. Of course, every step in that is easier said than done and there's no shortage of things that could go sideways while we're trying to enact that plan (other disciples of the witness showing up, Savathun betraying us from the moment she's resurrected, whatever is going on with the shadow legion making things complicated, the vex doing what they do, eramis making a mess of things, or something completely different).
the "family" angle they've really been needling with Xivu this season is one of its most rousing successes for me. Xivu might not get her own expansion, but having her as a main antagonist force in several seasons, plus the stellar character work they've put in for her this season, and in the logs for GOTD, i think she'll still measure up quite nicely to her siblings.
Build in the video? It looks so strong, and fun, too.
Immaru saying "heebie geebies." Will never not by funny to me
Parts of me wonder if The Witness even knows what The Final Shape at this point.
What I mean is that it may not have the exact details of what it should look like or how it should be, only a vague idea. Imagine if over the eons in it's cosmocidal campaign, The Witness still can't figure out what The Final Shape is...yet absolutely believes there is one and it exists to bring about whatever it is.
Ahsa said it's looking for something "perfected", but perfection is a very elusive and very slippery thing.
The hive are pretty much playing the worlds biggest battle royale
I just noticed something on the ghost shell lore, the knight was described as having a cleaver dripping with solar fire. This confirms that they are able to use the other aspects of light, meaning that knights can use more than just void, acolytes can use more than just solar, and wizards can use more than just arc
I thought it was soul fire
That's soulfire, not solar fire. Huge difference.
What is that arc loadout? What aspects and artifacts are those? It looks really good 👍
man I wish we could fully ally with the lucent hive. they're really fuckin cool
Not gonna happen hive guardians are suppose to be a replacement for champions. and Savathun is very untrustworthy
Could the Heresy episode next year revolve around reviving Oryx? It can be backed by a few ideas:
1) Heresy is the title, and necromancy and revival is heresy in the eyes of the Sword Logic.
2) We're (hopefully) not going to be flat out killing Xivu Arath in a season, so we would instead need a large enough playing card to convince her to turn her focus to the Witness' forces instead. Oryx' revival through "understanding the universe", or more likely fitting the name, via a Ghost, may be a large enough chip to turn her focus.
3) We still have the assumedly true mention of "The Taken King will rise again" from Savathun's Alters of Reflection (though they can't necessarily be trusted as usual). One may say Ghosts of the Deep could be relevant to that, but Oryx wasn't actually revived.
That said, it could just as easily deal with the ramifications of Xivu's failure to defeat us through war, and thus that "heresy" is eating away at her and the episode will explore the ramifications of that. A bunch of different options.
I think what will happen is that we show Xivu what we showed Savathun about the Witness lying to the hive. I think that will cause her to change sides
I hope bungie surprises us and somehow pulls a blue eyes white dragon card and resurrects Oryx to help us defeat the witness.
Something I'm curious about the Hive. Suppose in your metaphor of Final Shape Gamma, that one Hive is still standing at the end. Does it still need to tithe to its worm to survive? Or has it fed so much at this point that it would starve in a matter of seconds?
So all we need to do is beat her in combat, point out the wintness' deception, and promise her an eternity of war and battle in exchange for her help in destroying the true enemy of the sword logic
Id assume this is the case for the Vex as well. Of course the Sol Divisive follow the Witness’ final shape, however the rest of the vex I’m pretty sure have their own
Byf, that 1000000 player crucible game…I think we need that. It could be called Finality
Logically it’s hilarious if the witness stopped throwing a fit and joined forces with us we’d be able to dictate balance throughout esp with the help of the 9 and the fact that their existence is based on simply acknowledging they exist, entities tied into the light and dark that flow through the destiny universe
As someone who has into Buddhism one can take the final shape as dark perversion of enlightenment.
Good content but I'm trying to figure out the grenade spam titan build he is using the background.
Turned out, Tesselation's lore tab actually does a great job of explaining what the final shape is. It's sort of a universe where only the things that have value, purpose, or meaning exists. The unneeded things that simply fills in the background are cut off that, so they won't have to suffer. My best way to describe it is, think of a game where there are no random NPCs. The only thing in the game are the characters that had a purpose in the story. The unnecessary NPCs that are just there for the game's atmosphere is removed.
what titan exotic are you using at 3:00?
Hey byf, hope you see this:
I’ve played destiny off and on for years, but ngl I’ve never really payed attention to the lore. However with things ramping up, it’s starting to really intrigue me. I’m trying to get a sense of the whole timeline of destiny but as you know it’s MASSIVE, and I’m having a hard time finding a good point to start.
My question would be, do you think in the final weeks leading up to TFS, you could possibly release a lore video that basically covers all of destiny’s history from d1 all the way to d2? Obviously an insanely detailed recap would be way too long, but a nice timeline of events with maybe the more impactful moments explained would be so fkin sick dude. Either way loving the channel 🔥🤙🏼
I believe that although they are different they are not mutually exclusive, if Xivu and her brood are the last ones standing right before The Witness ends the universe then they would have achieved their own Final Shape.
Maybe, if they truly believe the Witness is stronger than them…
@@TheCBoysDotCom well, even if they think they can take on The Witness that would still follow their idea of The Final Shape, whether they can achieve or not its another matter.
I dont think the witness wants to delete everything, he wants to freeze it. Frozen in time, numbed, but still free to think, like the matrix. Where nothing grows or dies. Where the darkness and the light are innate.
I wonder if xivu is ever gonna find out about how she was lied to and manipulated into going down in the deep before she could be claimed by the sky and how she will react to it
What an awesome video. I just love the Hive, its culture and logics, so I'm enjoying this season's lore a lot. I think we will, of course, face Xivu'Arath, but I also think that Savathûn will convince her to switch against the Witness. Once both of the sisters have the same goal, they might even join forces. Xivu wanted to protect her family, and wants to follow the tennets of the Sword Logic, but she has to realize that the Witness does not follow those tennets, nor has the same goal as her in mind.
I think we will face Xivu, she will come to realize that she's in the wrong side of this war, and she will join her sister. Against the Witness and, once they've 'used us' to defeat it, perhaps against us once again. Maybe what remains of the Hive after Final Shape is what we will encounter in their Chronicle's chapter, as they still pursue their Final Shape.
The thumbnail is really good
I feel like I’m TWQ Bungie was hinting towards the lucent hive loosening their hive ways and becoming less brutal. I feel like this changed somewhere along the way. Low key I wish they were chill enough to ally with
Great hard work! Thank you
Wizard won hive crucible because he threw more grenades. Hive Shaxx is canon now.
I have said this for a long while now, however when it comes to Savathun I don’t belive at this point that she has ever truly stood against us. I also now belive I know that her wish was to Riven, she wanted the light and to be free of the curse of her worm and the tangential loyalty to the Witness. I know that she experimented on guardians and even “possessed” Osiris, but every one of her actions that we have seen in the lore presented to us, have been a means to an end and that end? Freedom
What’s that titan arc nade spam build
The wording of Savathun's final shape leaves room for several species/beings to be included in the Final Shape. Iirc, Xivu and Oryx's wording implies only a single being can be in the Final Shape. The Witness's wording could any number, but the more expansive descriptions for them, says potentially nothing exists at all, no consciousness at all.
That would be cool I would very much be interested in this story line
Love the lore Bean Byf! You da man! 😆
Bro, that infinite grenade set up you're running in this video is sick. You should make a video and explain it. 😂😂😂😂
We need to confince Xivu Arath to defeat the Witness
Please make a video about the current crafting glitch! I've heard that technically it is lore-accurate.
The goofiness of the Witness's plan is to end chaos and suffering by introducing a massive amount of chaos and suffering in the process. In that sense they are the classic "become what you hate," kind of villain
How many seasons are there before the final shape expansion?
Guardian to Xivu: "You can kill us, just not like that"
Is the Hive Sword Logic the same as the goals of the Vex?
I had to rewind a couple times since i was distracted by a titan build i wanna try, anyone know where i can find it?
Yo, Lore Daddy, what build were you rocking in the background gameplay?
Calus’s interpretation might help us to better understand the Witness’ Final Shape, though skewed.
Calus believes the Black Edge will sunder the universe to nothing, rather than the Hive’s perspective of a final contender but after further dialogue with the Witness, he gains new perspective on the details of that. (In Duality, Calus says that the Witness seeks the nothingness between the threads of Light and Dark in the tapestry of reality). The Witness seeks Nothingness but the choice word used for the Witness is “Calcify”, meaning to harden through deposition or conversion into calcium. A reduction is what is aimed at here.
We’ve seen examples of this reduction in Clovis’ Clarity which reduces Radiolaria from living matter to bare bone molecules. With the Traveler’s power of matter, the Witness will reduce everything down to a reverse embryo where instead of basic matter with the potential for life, it will have the potential for Nothing.
(Nezarec might also perceive the Final Shape that way too but with him subsisting on a weird form of suffering that is reduced since he can exist without the need for a form, like a metaphysical leech)
Don’t the Vex also have their own version of the Final Shape? Or is it just that they’ve seen it in a future timeline?
I think it is interesting that all of the darkness ideologies are forms of nihilism. Examples:
The Sword Logic - Nietzsche's will to power: Might makes right, create your own meaning through power.
Callus - Optimistic nihilism: nothing matters so just do whatever gives you pleasure.
"Puppets. All of them. Every last Krill. Every last Hive. I once believed in a higher calling as they do, but you know that. You rescued me from that. Eternal appreciation doesn't even scratch the surface of what I owe you for the gifts you gave me. I know you hoped the Hive would see it too. We tried. We really did. But we had to let them struggle... All because of a belief that purpose had finally found them. Given them strength to conquer an oppressive homeworld. How else were they to grow? Their loss, however, is for them to grieve, not us. We will continue forward. Greater purpose awaits, my Witness".
I think you are right in that we are making Xivu stronger so that she can challenge Eris and strike her down in vengeance only to make Eris rise and defeat her.
Do you think there will be Hive that are on our side at the end of The Final Shape?
Depending on how this season goes, it'll probably be Savathun and her hive or Eris in some form(if she lives or stays a hive god)
@@brandonnguyen2072 probably eris Savathun just can’t be trusted
I think the lucent brood and Savathun are in league with the Winnower while appearing to be on the Gardener’s side , the Hive Sword logic is the Winnower’s so them practicing his philosophy kinda shows where they’re true allegiance lies
Technically the Lucent Hive are…? Or at least, we have the same objective: bring down Xivu Arath. If the LH do indeed still believe in the sword logic, then they are, in essence, sacrificing themselves so we can tithe to Eris and bring down Xivu. To the Hive, love is war due to the sword logic, so we are, in a way, showing them love my slaughtering them to accomplish their/our goal.
4:35 I think your idea that the hive's final shape has a lot of suffering is a misunderstanding. It will be REACHED through suffering, but the final shape that the hive strive for itself, is at the end of the day, unchanging and without suffering, because that's what makes it the final shape. Ironically, the hive, or any given hive, could never be the final shape, because their worms would demand endless tribute, or else devour the hive. If the hive were the final shape, with nothing left to conquer or cut away, they would simply die. I think this is a very clever and intentional part of their servitude designed by the Witness, to ensure the Hive could never take what the Witness is using them to achieve.
That’s a sick thumbnail
When the hive die they go to their throne world. Does that remove them from this universe? What the witness is doing erase their throne world?
12:49 did a video game character just drop a real life gem?! I love this game lol
So basically the hive see the whole universe as a giant battle royale
That also means that Nezarec would also not be a part of the Witnesses final shape as he is the god of tournament and Witnesses doesn't want tournament in the first place.
The Witness seeks stasis - nothing changes, nothing hurts, nothing grows.
Sword Logic, on the other hand, posits an end state of maximum conflict, where the only things that remain are constantly striving against each other to remain sharp.
These are not compatible visions of the future.
Why does it matter? it matters because something else had to give the worm gods that iteration of the sword logic, and since this would have been before Rhulk recruited them, there’s only one being who that could be the Winnower himself, in unveiling the Winnower regards Oryx as his finest servant, he even calls him “my man Oryx”, he speaks in a completely different manner than the Witness via singular pronouns, the Winnower is also referenced in a vision Saint XIV has, the Gardener speaks to Saint as a mother does to her child and she says he gets a certain trait from his father… The Winnower
The more and more we understand The Witness the more and more i smell Fathers Origin story and goal in Fullmetal Alchemist:Brotherhood... O.o
Whats the build you are using?
I think that the hive “final shape” is the natural one (ie intended by the gardener and the winnower) as thats also what the vex strive to and the witness seeks a final shape that is in defiance of them.
The final shape for us guardians is when all loots that are collectable ,has been collected.
Everyone have their own "final shape". Especially now, when thanks to Witness, everybody knows about the Vail. Perhaps the end of the story will be OUR final shape. Because when we defeat Witness, there will be peace, and over some time human race can get to the point where we will be as concern about existance as Witness's race once was.
The witnesses final shape is literally the same as lord businesses plan from the lego movie
If we can surprise the Hive god of Cunning with a revalation bold enough to shake her convictions, then I'm certain we can do the same for Xivu Arath. Although we may need to take a different approach. In other words, fight Xivu to a stale mate, reveal to her a hidden truth, and change her perspective. I have a feeling it will provide a respite long enough for us to mount an assault on the Witness and it's "Final Shape".