ew that reminded me of my toxic "ex" (less of an ex but more of a dynamic where I couldn't leave the dude) who believed in the "men and women can't be friends" belief, saying that "friendship and relationships can't coexist". Sucks ass to see people who actually believe in that
What's that twitter screen shot going around that's a guy saying something like "Women who are friends with you expect you to emotionally support them and then they don't put out." Like the only reason to be friends with a woman is because it could lead to sex.
Doesnt "being in friendzone" mean that you actually fall in love with someone who doesnt feel it the same...and you just kinda got "friendzoned" till you learn to see this person as a friend rather than someone you love romanticaly? Whats the deal about It ? Of course its bad when someone is friend with a person just because they are atracted to them but thats not really what friendzone is or ?
@@sylvestersmetanka4224 technically you're right, but lots of people (especially men) consider the friendzone something horrible like a punishment bc they feel entitled that the lady feels the same way they do. Which is weird because entitlement shouldnt be relevant to this topic. I could be wrong tho but I'm pretty sure thats it
@@30seagullsinatrenchcoat11 This whole network of stupid gendered expectations is related to so many things. For example how pick up artists and men in general always talk about "getting a girl into bed" and basically talking her into sex. At least in my language there are a lot of words that indicate it's totally normal how women have to be persuaded to sleep with you. What happened to enthusiastic consent? How is this not part of rape culture?
What really drove it home for me was seeing a tweet like "Guys, if you ever feel bad because a girl has 'friendzoned' you, just think about what it must feel like for her to be 'fuckzoned,' as if her friendship is worth nothing."
Exactly! I would never complain about just being friends with a guy I found attractive, that would be whiny and petty. When a guy complains that I've "friendzoned" him, I feel like what he's really saying is that the only worthwhile thing about me is what's between my legs. At least it helps me weed out all the shallow, pathetic ones right away.
I'm a bi woman and I was best friends with this guy for nearly ten years. I noticed how he seemed fine if I liked a girl but if I liked a guy he would get weird and passive aggressive. I finally decided to say to him "I found that comment a bit passive aggressive" and, long story short, he had a massive tantrum that lasted 6 months and he started posted all these lyrics on Twitter like "thought she was the one but she was sexing everyone but me" and "I've got a hole where my heart is coz I've got a ho where my heart is". So, yeah, felt great knowing that nearly a decade of close friendship was apparently worthless if I wasn't going to sleep with him/let him be a dick to me if I wanted to sleep with a guy that wasn't him.
Honestly the take men and women cannot be friends is so oversaturated in film and tv, that growing up I completely internalized it. I really had to unpack this idea because it made me struggle with jealously when my partners had female friends. And looking back it makes me so mad, that there was zero representation of female/male friendships, when at the same time two people of the same gender could have the best chemistry but it's just played of as "they are just really good friends".
Yeah, but I will say sometimes jealous is warranted and healthy. When you're dating you're supposed to let your significant other roam free to some degree because you're trying to figure out what type of person they really are. It's better to find out they won't be faithful while dating than while married. But when you are married jealousy is sometimes appropriate. If your spouse is spending personal time with someone of the opposite sex and you don't know who they are or aren't comfortable with it you have every right to demand to meet them and decide if you're okay with them spending time together. Sometimes you just got to go with your gut. Marriage is tough and sometimes you gotta do unpleasant things to make it work. Marriage isn't the place for naive trust. When times are hard spouses will screw up if left unchecked even if they had the best of intentions initially.
@@galaxyocicat5660 I didn't assume anything. Most people aren't dating for entertainment so it makes sense to give advice against over correcting in future steps.
Honestly as a guy. I just want a movie that is just purely about friendship. No unrequited love or sex. Just friendship. Just a movie about a group of friends exploring their life together. Something like that.
Maze runner is a bit like that but it's a dystopia horror. Stand by me, the goonies are some old films. I haven't seen many with mixed boy and girl friend groups.
It's not a movie, but I think the first arc of the Wings of Fire book series does a good job of this. The main characters grow up together and, while things like crushes between them are explored, they end up growing into a tight family unit who would go through hell and high water for each other instead of all pairing off. Admittedly, the fandom is a bit triggerhappy with the shipping, but what can you do.
@@trinefanmelyes! As much as I love Sunny and Starflight together, I think it was so much better that she rejected him. Platonic relationships are so underrated and WOF did a good job at depicting them!
Ikr!!! This is when we idealize relationships. We put people on pedastols and then believe this one magic person will come save is and fulfill all our dreams and wishes. We have been so conditioned and sold on this ‚The One‘ Idea when it comes to love relationships, that we forget how valuable and important all relationships are. Something I heard my favorite Relationship Therapist say is that: I takes a village to raise a child. We need different kind of people we need community around us. There is so much room for exploration in friendships as well. When I was healing my relationship wounds I entered a woman workshop only to realize that actually I have a deep sisterhood wound as well, and that I crave deep intimate (not sexual) connections with females too. We really all need sacred brother and sisterhood outside of our romatic relationships. I think it‘s like the most important pillar of stability tbh
Because of s3x, physical intimacy as well as emotional support which you already get from the friendship so relationships offer more from a guy's perspective. As a girl I find it weird but I know that a lot of guys are desperate and lonely.
@@michaelhomes8049 I get it... I wish it didn't, but I do. It would be nice if it mattered less before any entanglements ensued though. Thanks for the compliment.
@@flamebunny6511 Omg I didnt know that! I love that movie but them staying friends would have made so much more sense. As is it seems like the message is yes, men and women can be friends, but only as a precursor to a relationship 😂
@@stellablake6200 I think it was based off the friendship between the screenwriter and someone else working behind the scenes. They are still friends 🙂.
In an interview, Emma Watson actually talks about the romance scenes between her and Rupert Grint feeling weird because they practically grew up together and were like siblings.
The actors yes, but they're different from the characters. The characters had feelings for each other for years, almost from the beginning. Although you can only see that in the books, as the movies completely destroyed the characters and their relationships to each other.
@@mariannek6735 Yeah, it would make sense that the actors being uncomfortable would make their relationship feel weirder in the movies than in the books. I never read them as a kid so I found the movie romance really off-putting.
@@hgrubb3317 maybe is because i read the books first, but i would say it was nit that bad carried in the movies. Hermione and ron are always more awkward with physical affection towards each other than towards harry. In the second movie , when hermione is healed from being petrified and meets them in the great hall, she hugs harry without thinking it twice...but then with ron, it becomes awkward quickly and then end just shaking hands instead. That right there was evidence of romace, because you don't have a problem usually hugging someone you only have platonic feelings for, but would def feel more nervous about hugging your crush
@@nessyness5447 Yeah plus there's all their friendly bickering which is just awful in the movies (or so i'm told: I never watched the movies). I think it was Quinn Curio who had a good video about the way Ron's character in the movies was absolutely slaughtered.
@@tortis6342 the romantic subplots in general were destroyed in the movies and not given any development, tbh. I still like the movies tho, because of the aesthetic and i the actors are great. But to actually get the stories and the characters, better the books.
the whole "just friends" thing REALLY irks me as an ace-spec person because it just reminds me of how everyone else seems to think that the most meaningful relationships are romantic and sexual in nature and it just... ugh
I'm also ace-spec and I hate how I cannot hang out with my guy friends in peace without having someone asking "So, are you gonna date one of them soon?". I swear these people are jealous of my friendships with those who are of the opposite gender. But, they won't admit it.
I'm not ace but I really wish I could have better friendships I feel like I'm always second to their partner :( I have my own and the reason we get along so well is just because we meet up so often I want my friends who want to meet up as often just us two it's really annoying
Agreed. I think it also reveals just why we aroaces still find ourselves not being accepted or having people doubt our orientation. People think that someone can't possibly have value if there's no romance or sexytimes involved, so they believe we're making excuses instead of just merely seeing friendship as enough.
As a bi woman you have no idea how many people are just as tired of this trope as you. Apparently I can’t be left in a room alone with a friend of any gender, I will try to sex them. 😂 Also don’t appreciate the ace-spectrum characterization of ‘normals’ as putting sex over everything else….
I had two male best friends in college. One assaulted me because he couldn't wrap his head around the fact that I didn't want to date him. The other one helped me heal from that, and never crossed any line I put down. Hell, for the first few months of our friendship I refused to even be in a closed room with him alone. But he listened and cared, and we both agreed we didn't want or need to be anything more than we were. A big reason I was able to move past my new found trust issues was because of the kindness he offered me. It is so important that EVERYONE believe that men and women can be friends, because if even one person believes that's impossible, it always leads to someone else being seriously hurt. I wish this trope would just burn out already
Exactly, finally someone said it. It's so gross, that some guys pretend to be a women's friend just to get sex from her, that's so selfish. And when they get rejected, instead of respecting a women's decision, they get angry, try to manipulate or force her.
what i hate about it is the whole "this guy DESERVED her more." Why do people and fans feel like a woman OWES a man/ a girl OWES a boy sex or romance for being a friend to her?? Like there's no deserving here that's disgusting to me
no this.. like wtf.. i write stories myself and have on several accounts made fun of this concept.. a good example of this would be Raktha who is completely asexual aromantic. he wants nothing to do with nothing of that shit so of course naturally he'd probably just walk away from this buffoonery. then another one of my characters Haevyn is quite similar in this manner though he is straight he doesn't see the point in a relationship because of his nature.. basically he recieved the power over time when he was a child and thus is unable to age the normal way (he can change his age whenever he wants and there are some other things he can do that are a bit more complicated.. but basically if it has anything to do with time he can most likely control it) so naturally he also doesn't really abide by the same rules of time someone else would what for you could be years could feel like mere minutes to him sure he could go back at any point aswell as forward but he feels like it would be too much micromanaging to get into a relationship so he just doesn't feel like even trying (i suppose you could say he's a bit lazy the way he deals with a fight is often just skipping to the end or turning the enemies into babies so the fight would be over. after all why bother even fighting when you can just wave a finger and end it immideately.. of course not every fight is this easy as he ends up learning later on in his story but hey.) another fun little detail about him is how in their universe he is actually the mona Lisa.. the story goes that he went back after a trip to the louvre with his adoptive parents (he's an alien that ended up on earth and his adoptive parents are scottish wich is why his last name is McKenzie wich is actually a nod towards a family i got really attached to in the sims 3 that i created around when island living came out.. the narrative was that the mum was a lifeguard at the local beach and the dad was a well known artist.. they ended up having several children and a parrot) so intrigued in the painting and noticing it kind of looked like himself he decided to investigate it further.. so he overshot a bit with his timing and ended up a bit before the painting was even started so of course da vinci notices him sees his abnormal features (he's a Vulcan you know based on star trek so he has pointy ears and pretty striking features) so he instantly decides yes you i've gotta paint you next ! so davinci drags him to his studio and paints him.. then one of davinci's relatives sees the painting when it's finished and is shocked saying A DEMON A DEMON ! of course the people of this time would think something so archaic so davinci has to think of a way to present it anyways and decides to ask Haevyn who then replies in his thick scottisch accent "well you could make me a wee lassy or something" and thus the mona lisa was born.
I'll just start this comment by stating I'm a girl. I can somewhat understand that mentality, because when youre on the "guy's" side - the person who is into the other party - and the two of you are really close together yet they fail to see you in a romantic light it can get extremely frustrating and you can start asking yourself why is the world so cruel and why cant they just like me. Ive never experienced the other side of things where you are the one expected to like somebody you just see as a friend but i can also see how that would be disturbing and kind of make you not want to even be friends anymore. What I'm saying is the former point of view doesn't come from stupidity, it just comes from frustration. And in cases in which the two people cant get together and the first person can't muffle their own feelings well enough either, maybe the best call is to just terminate the friendship entirely.
@@CreeketsCreek i was talking about fans/ exterior ppl tho, people who blame the girl or say mean things about her for not giving sex or romance to a guy
I truly hate the idea of a “friend zone”. It just shows that a lot of men don’t really value a woman’s friendship. It also makes “getting the girl” more of a chase, which means that when a woman turns a man down, he thinks it means try harder.
True there's a lot of weird ideals of straight couples and seeing relationships as a final goal in a race, ie being childhood friends is a start, being friend zoned pushes you back, and when someone doesn't immediately respond to a message you send you make them wait for you for hours counting it down like a chase?
It’s not necessarily that men don’t value friendships with women, they simply overvalue romantic relationships and when the possibility of one fizzles out, it’s disappointing for obvious reasons. I mean I’m no expert on psychology, but I can guarantee that a woman who is rejected by a man who “just wants to be friends” will feel the same sense of disappointment as a man in the same situation. When you want something more out of a relationship, it’s very hard to settle for less.
@@jeremyterkelsen2518 @Jeremy Terkelsen I agree on the "men overvaluing romantic relationships" part but as a woman who's made a move on a male friend and got rejected, I can say that while I was (obviously) disappointed, I respected him wanting to just be friends. Didn't pester him about how much I like him or try to emotionally manipulate him into being with me - which are things male friends have done to me after being romantically rejected. And of course there are women who do act like that but I think there's just waaay more men compared to women. There's a sense of entitlement. Being disappointed someone doesn't wanna date you is one thing, unrelentingly trying to force someone to be with you is another. And it's not that hard either, or at least when you respect the other person's boundaries it isn't
@@WrathofFenrir99 I just do my absolute best to avoid any man as much as possible, because most of them just creep me out 😔 But not all of them are as shallow as you described and can be reasonable I’d say
I think its interesting how in this trope, the guy friend is usually already into the girl and the girl is just expected to go along with it and suddenly find him attractive. Even when the story is about the girl, it is still centred on the long term fantasy the boy has of finally nailing his "friend".
Because that's what the romantic frustrations of every young man in middle and high school looks like. It's fantasy wish fulfillment. For female protagonist stories the writer's problem is often that female audience members want the romantic interest to be so deep and badass that there isn't any room left to develop an interesting female protagonist. You'd need a full series to do justice to both. Instead they opt to invest resources in developing the romantic interest and rely on well know archetypes to develop the female protagonist.
@@keld101 How do you know that that's what female audiences want? Are the wine moms who watch fifty shades of grey your basis for that? Cause I see many women who are asking for well developed female characters, even the UA-camr you watch is one of them.
Two people: Exist beside each other Everyone else: *yall dating?* You can be friends with any gender. Also this also feeds the belief to nice guys that if they are friendly to girls they will get in their pants and freak out when they don't.
yo once in primary school a guy came and asked me something and then left and his friend asked "are u guys dating?" and the guy who asked was my crush. How shameless of him
But imagine if that inquiry wasn't the norm. The results would likely be bad because people would be constantly hitting on another person's significant other unknowingly. Which is even more annoying.
More accurately, I'd say it potientially feeds into the belief that Nice Guys have that friendship with women have no value outside of as a transition into romance. That's why they freak out when told no; the "friendship" they have with the woman of their choice is seen as a transaction that she hasn't held up her side of.
When I was in elementary school I tagged a boy more than the others cause' he cheated less. Then (using a fake name here) _David_ just has to say something like "haha why so you tag him so much? You must like him!" thanks for ruining tag and being friends with boys for me, _David._ Suddenly most of the class thinks I have a crush on him when I explicitly don't. That was annoying. And surprisingly enough, somewhat traumatizing. Everyone believed something I couldn't properly disprove; they believed a lie. I don't even know if I'm capable of full on, proper crushes. All in all, it was a bad experience for me, and probably awkward for that kid. Kids like _David_ were always the scourge of elementary school.
Not straight, but I will say that I am bothered by those ships when it pertains to real people. I see it happen with traditional celebrities such as Harry Styles and Louis Tomlinson, and I see it happen a lot with male youtubers who make a lot of content together, such as Dan and Phil or Dream and George. While some of them have said in the past that they're fine with shipping, I think it can be way too much. Like when fans are picking apart every little moment between them and calling literally EVERYTHING they do gay. Like close male friendships should be completely normalized and they should be able to express affection without immediately being shipped/accused of being together. It can easily turn into a privacy issue and make the people involved really uncomfortable. No matter the gender, friends should not have to be put through that. But otherwise, I completely agree. Most of the time those ships never become canon, so the str8s should have nothing to complain about. Honestly, the constant shipping of same-gendered characters would happen less if there was more representation in media.
@@thisisyouralterlife3785 I fully understand that the discussion has only been including fictional characters, but considering that the discussion also includes the impact these tropes and characters have on real life people, I thought it was still an important point to make. Just as the "guys and girls can never be just friends" and "friends to lovers" can affect real life relationships between opposite genders, a similar thing can happen to relationships between people of the same gender, though less prevalent. The whole conversation is about the affects these tropes and fictional characters have on real life people. Just like people internalize the idea of "guys and girls can't be friends," I believe a lot of people can get so caught up and used to shipping same-gendered characters that they do the same thing to real life people, sometimes to the point where they see those people as just characters. I was also mainly responding to the comment (which didn't mention real life people or fictional characters, just same-gendered relationships) rather than the video. I definitely wasn't trying to go against anything said in the video or the comment, just giving my opinion based on my personal experiences. :)
@@veggiegrace13 I feel like every gender should be allowed to hang out with each other platonically, relationships shouldn't really be something that comes to mind unless it has been openly implied that one or both are definitely interested in the other. Idk if this is because I'm aroace but it tires me so much to see people assume that two people are "in love" just because they're nice and all, regardless of what sexuality they are. Yeah gays can have relationships all they want, but what about asexuals? guess we don't exist? or people who are celibate and not looking for relationships? what about those that value friends just as much as relationships? Also, as someone who's been here to see rabid larry and phan shippers, it's scary to see the borderline fetishization of gays, like if two people just so happen to be friends and get together, them good for them, but you can't speak for every pair of friends, it's their feelings after all, not ours.
I like how you talked about Tall girl I, as a tall female, can vouch that problem with Dunklecreep isn't that he is short- it's that he is a creep. He is possesive of his friend, sabotages her relationship and doesn't respect her boundries And no one is obligated to date a creep. Why are they even friends
Yeah, none of the love interests were very good. To be honest, none of the characters were very good. The premise of the entire movie is that Jodi’s struggle in life if being an attractive blonde girl who’s the same height as the short one on any college volleyball team. Going around acting like she couldn’t drop kick everyone in the school - the only school with one tall person, by the way. Jack was a creepy little guy who sabotages her relationship, doesn’t respect her boundaries, AND LITERALLY WATCHED HER SLEEP. Stig was an asshole who played Kinmy and Jodi, was a crappy friend, he likes Guys and Dolls - WHICH IS THE REAL ISSUE THAT NOBODY US TALKING ABOUT! The only interesting character was Kimmy’s friend, purely because during the scene she was filming Stig punching Dunkleman she was teleporting around the room at different angles. You’re telling me Kimmy’s friend has superpowers, and we’re supposed to care about some girl who’s just a little bit tall?
@@Briar- I personally thought it was about her own personal fear and mental hurdle. There wasn’t a real fear but she needed to get over her own prejudice.
@@natalyaporter5730 the prejudice doesn’t even make any sense though. It’s not realistic at all. You’re telling me that she’s the only 6”1 person in the whole school? At my school there’s at least one person 6”0 or over in every class
@@Briar- perhaps it was intensified for the story or it was her own perception of it. Some people are sensitive and think people are insulting them when they are not (or not trying to). Maybe it requires a little suspense of belief to enjoy it and it rides on tropes. Maybe she lives in a part of the world full of shorter people who make fun of her for her height. Who knows? Not every place is the same. Where I live there are people of all different kinds of heights and not everyone is over 6'0. Either way, I enjoyed the movie
The clip of him commenting on her “baby genes” is probably the closest I’ve come to throwing up over a scene. What the actual fuck? If a guy said that to me I’d phone the police lol
But no one is really arguing about whether males and females can be amicable without developing romantic feelings. Of course they can. It's not even uncommon. The initial societal question that was being asking was: could a man and a women with no previous history together and who were reasonably compatible with one another (a.k.a. heterosexual singles that get along with eachother and are both reasonably attractive) form and maintain a close intimate lifelong friendship together without ever developing and acting on their romantic feelings. In reality, the overwhelmingly result of testing is no, and overwhelmingly the failure comes from the male side. There are exceptions in extreme cases, but in the vast vast majority of instances at least one party will develop feelings and will act on them given enough time. But that finding doesn't necessarily apply to homosexuals, or pairs that don't find eachother attractive for personal reasons, or in a whole host of other atypical circumstances such as your own. The verdict is still out on that.
It is always the guy that wants the girl and she does not like him, so in the end the guy is the only one who really gets what they want in the movies the girl always comes around and magically changes her mind.
Forest Lesbians are the weakest Lesbian build ,Savannah And Mountain Lesbian are the best Lesbian build, Sea Lesbians are an okay build too.(this is a joke for people who think I am being serious)
An alternative to this- Karate Kid 3. Daniel asks Jessica if she'd like to go out but she says no even though she's on a break from her former boyfriend. He's totally okay with that, and they go through the entire movie with Daniel and Jessica building an awesome platonic relationship. They help each other out, and honestly it's pretty refreshing to see him accept her choice and just stay friends. Later on she moves away in order to try and get back with her former boyfriend to try and make things work again, and he's happy for her. Interesting that it would come from a karate kid movie of all places lol (Part of this is because the actor who played daniel was 26 and Jessica was 17 so the director did not want any romantic interest to come across on screen, but it's still nice that they didn't force it into the story)
@forest lesbian yeah I agree. I've mostly met men who insist that women can't be friends and think all men secretely want to fuck their female best friend. I would say it's not even a romantic thing. I just think any kind of closeness to a woman, makes them feel like he might aslo be physically and sometimes romantically involved. Maybe this doesnt mean much coming from someone a little aromantic that I wouldnt even consider my guy friends, who feel like brothers to me.
It's interesting that often when a "relatable girl" is the main character the writers put very little effort into making her love interest interesting or giving them lots of chemistry. Whereas when a "relatable guy" is the main character he usually somehow ends up with a gorgeous Manic Pixie Dream Girl who attaches herself to him from the beginning for no apparent reason (yes, I'm thinking of Garden State.)
@@koalakid1884 I’m from the middle east where they censor kissing scenes from English movies whenever they are showcased in our TV programs, so if the main guy and the girl had a romantic relationship, I have no idea about that, but.... Didn’t the girl, like, die or something?
Once I came to terms with being Bi I realized how stupid and bullshit the “men and women can’t be friends” thing is. I’ve been attracted to many of my girl and guy friends, but I value their friendship. It isn’t impossible. I’ve had crushes on guy friends when I was younger and it can be hard, but like I didn’t stop my whole life waiting for them to reciprocate. If it’s too painful to be friends with someone because you like them and they don’t like you, don’t be their friend. You deserve better and they deserve a real friend.
as a fellow bisexual i feel this. i’ve had feelings for a female friend once and but i put it then aside. it was painful for a while, but then the attraction passed and now years later i’ve kept a friendship. she’s straight and i hope she meets a nice guy. i’ve dated other people and will continue too there’s no reason you can’t be mature and move on. like i don’t pine for her, i love and respect her as a friend though. and it’s a much nicer way to be sometimes.
I had a platonic friendship with another girl back in my teen years. We would often joke about being together, she would tell me to "dump my boyfriend" and so on... But that was it. We were friends, we had a little crush going on, we kept it platonic, and I loved every second of it!
Bisexual here. Yes to everything you just said! I have had crushes on friends but I don’t say they’re in the “friendzone” because I do value their friendship more than anything else. If the whole “men and women can’t be friends” trope was true, then that means no bisexuals could have friends?? Anyway thank you because I couldn’t have said it better myself. I agree 100% 💯💯💯
My partner was attracted to me when we were good friends and I was actually dating one of his best friends at the time. He was able to handle that, and then I realized that he was a better partner, and I could still stay friends with the other guy as we got along well, just not romantically.
What bothers me about the “scar on that beautiful torso” line is that it implies that people have a choice if they have a c section. My sister had a micro premie baby (under 2lbs) and she had to have an emergency c section. Also it implies the scar from giving birth makes her ugly and the comment is super creepy.
I mean i think sometimes you can chose? I was actually a late baby and my mother did choose to get a c section because it was easier for her. But yeah that's just super weird... maybe don't talk about something that's largely very traumatic like that
Usually the same guys say that "men and women can't be friends" and "let bros/gals be bros/gals" when talking about same-sex relationships. Which is the most ironic thing I've heard.
The incels and nice guys in the comment section have really proved that this trope is harmful and fuel for their excuses to remain unnecessarily miserable. They would rather blame a whole group of people for their personal issues with relationships and rejection then get it sorted out in therapy.
I feel like this trope kinda adds to how men often see a friendship with a woman as some sort of pre-stage to dating. I've had a guy I was friends with for two years make a move on me, then when I rejected him say he "didn't want to invest in a friendship that wasn't going anywhere". Like the expectation of it "going somewhere" is one a lot of men I've met have had, even when I have clearly communicated my intentions.
That’s so gross. Like imagine if you ask a straight guy why he bothers having male friends if it isn’t “going anywhere” why does it have to go somewhere? Just say you don’t treat women equally- it would be much more honest of them.
@@katyfive1 you act as if womena are all honest about their intentions with men all of the time. there's plenty of women who pretend to be friends and want more. the only difference is men are expected to initiate. if that was his intention all along , its kind of a little bit disingenuous but what about women who pretend to like a guy in order to get status or money, material advantages?
@@johnascialpi5247 i don't pretend to be friends with anybody. I might find someone attractive but I would never hang around them solely because I'm waiting for my "chance"
@@KD-ou2np what if you developed feelings, etc. there's a difference between waiting and or "would' you if given the chance. I get that you wouldn't but there are women who do this alot too in my experience. Or say "lets be friends" to guys they find attractive. etc.
Because women rarely get friendzoned, privilege is invisible to those who have it. Why should us men be friends with someone and get nothing back, what a waste of time.
It's not even just in media. A guy and a girl can't have a normal friendship without people thinking they're dating or they like each other. I have a guy friend and we get called a relationship by people we don't even know.
Yeah I'm lesbian and we had a worker who came to the house. People in my neighborhood asked if I was bringing a boy over to the house and I physically cringed
Any man who says men and women can't be friends basically says "I see every (attractive) woman as a sex object and only try to befriend them to have a relationship/sex with them". Run. Run as fast as you can when you meet someone like that
The whole crate thing is so gross. Man was deadass carrying around a milk crate since he met this girl on the off chance she would ever get with him. That’s gross in a way that’s hard to explain, but it makes my skin crawl. (It’s in stalker territory at least.)
even when I was younger it always bothered me when the main guy character had to have a forced romance with the only conventionally attractive female character in every children's movie
It always annoyed me because like.. couldnt they just be friends? why did they have to get together??? its why i dont rlly watch movies bc theres a 75% chance ill see a forced romantic relationship and get confused, uncomfy, and the movie ruined for me?
Lucifer has a lot of male and female platonic relationships. Even Lucifer and Linda, who had a casual sex relationship at first , never develope a romantic relationship, and once they cut off the sex part, their friendship remains entirely platonic and becomes very strong.
"I’ve become skeptical of the unwritten rule that just because a boy and girl appear in the same feature, a romance must ensue. Rather, I want to portray a slightly different relationship, one where the two mutually inspire each other to live. ~ Hayao Miyazaki"
Ghibli movies are top-tier!! I think a lot of his movies do this really well. I can't really find the perfect example, but I know for a fact that hardly ever is a romantic relationship the main goal of the movie.
This gets SO annoying sometimes. Like, they don't even foreshadow it. The movie just ends with them kissing even if they don't like each other, barely know each other, or even have plans to have a relationship. Regardless of anything, that's just bad storytelling.
I have a childhood guy best friend and he's like a brother to me. However, all of my friends and even my own mother are saying we should get together and it's just super irritating because why can't we just be friends without any romantic feelings. Is it really so impossible for some people to think a guy and girl can have a platonic relationship?
I have a friend (girl) who I've known since she was 3, and multiple people have asked if I want to date her younger brother who I'm also friends with. My response is typically eweweeewewewewew. I knew him since he was a literal baby, he's my brother in every way but blood.
Yeah, there's typically 2 reasons friends and family do that. Either he's blatantly pining for you and everyone around you is just desperately wanting you to notice so he doesn't continue to make a fool out of himself trying, or he's so out of your league that they think this may be a once in a lifetime chance for you to capture such a great person. Depending on your age it may or may not be a wise choice to explicitly ask your friends if they think your childhood friend is into you.
@@keld101 "he's my brother in every way but blood." I suppose it depends on your definition of friend. I'd consider him a friend as well. If you don't count that, about half of my friends are men (even a couple of exes in there) and we're not romantically involved at all (anymore for the exes, of course 😆)
So men don't have any healthy relationships? I'm just wondering because if men and women can't be friends and men don't really talk and share emotions with their Bros, this means they aren't doing okay. Friendship is a very important part of life and crucial to your emotional development. Friends are great.
Yo I say this all the time! I wonder if men just aren’t used to having intimate, deep connections and just assume their attachments to their women friends is romantic.
Us "bros" talk about the same personal stuff you girls do. It's just we only talk about it one on one. Guys who don't open up to a friend usually are constantly dating and use the girlfriend as an emotional outlet. We also drink alot. That helps.
@@keld101 as long as they talk that's the important thing to me at least. That they have meaningful support, it's nice to have somebody on your side even if it's one person.
Men are conditioned to seek emotional support exclusively from their romantic partners... This also adds to the fact that they may take a woman's simple friendship the wrong way and seek a partner dynamic instead.
it's so bizarre to me when I hear other guys say that men and women can't be friends, bc, like, I'm bi and somehow I do in fact have platonic friends. My best friend in college was a girl who started talking to me because she had a crush on me, but we both realized we'd make a terrible couple so, even though we both found each other attractive, we just stayed friends instead, it literally does not have to be that complicated
It's not even just men believing that "men and women can't just be friends" bs. My best friend during college was a girl and my girlfriend at the time couldn't wrap her head around it; she'd fight me about it almost every single time she saw us together, despite there almost always being a third, male, friend around. Hearing a woman claim I was "emotionally cheating" because I confided in a female friend was mindboggling, even more so when most secrets shared with her would also be shared with my best male friend.
I get being worried about someone cheating on you, but calling being close to a friend "emotional cheating"? what even. your situation sounds exhausting.
This reminds of a flipped situation in college. We had a friend group consisting of four, half and half. I was close friends with guy1, guy1 was close friends with guy2 and guy2 was close friends with girl. When me and guy2 had some private talks, we hit it off and decided to try dating. The girl was then VERY punctual about us keeping EVERYTHING like it was before. We still had to sit like so; me + guy1 and girl + guy2 in class, we didn't talk in class before we started dating, so it should continue like that, lest we ruin our relationship ofc. Naturally, that is some major bs, the relationships you form with people are fluid in nature. The best thing you can do is establish some boundaries. Her boundaries apparently consisted of me and guy2, now fiancé, totally ignoring eachother at campus. That didn't boat with us well lol So long story short, she faded from our friend group, breaking off her friendship with guy2 and we're still friends with guy1, cuz why wouldn't we be. This just goes to show that sometimes it's more about maintaining control than a good relationship for certain people in our lives, and that truly sucks. Hope your situation got better❤
I just inherently hate this trope because a close friend of mine "accidentally" fell in love with me and then said we couldn't be friends because he had a girlfriend.
Yup, that's called escaping the friend zone. Beats simping. But the accidental part is BS. He probably just didn't want to admit how long he was stuck in the friend zone for.
I actually feel like that was the responsible thing for him to do. If he knew he'd end up emotionally cheating on his gf, even unreciprocated, with you, then he's protecting the relationship that's he's invested in right now: with his gf. Look, some people can handle being attracted to their friends without it becoming a big deal, other people can't and have to come up with other solutions🤷🏾♀️
“friendships can be just as, or even more fulfilling” i completely agree. i started dating a guy in seventh grade and we dated for nearly four years before i came out as a lesbian. he’s bi and actually brought me into the lgbtq community and helped me discover who i was. we’ve been best friends since, about 5 more years, and they are the best friend i’ve ever had. we are completely in sync when it comes to most things and i can confidently say he is my soulmate and i love them to death. we even have a lavender marriage pact for if we’re not married/in a long-term relationship by a certain age. in fact, i think i’m going to text him to remind him how important he is to me
this whole “all men want to sleep with any women at any given time, which is why men and women can’t just ‘be friends’” thing is so funny to me because in senior year I was the one who had a crush on a guy in my class but it fizzled out when it was obvious he was not interested in me AT ALL, and after we graduated we became closer friends. Nowadays I don’t have any romantic feelings towards him but still love him as a friend. Hell, I’m seeing him next week for my birthday. I’ve literally lived the same thing (some) men describe “can’t be done”
As someone older, one of the weird things about this friendzone concept becoming an internet meme is seeing it turn increasingly gendered. Men have come to view it as an act itentionally and cruelly done against them by women; on the other, women have come to view it as an accusation they have to defend or deny. The lines weren't this defined pre-internet. Women have always gotten 'friendzoned', too. This core idea, you like someone romatically but they don't reciprocate and the tension that creates, that's not intrisically a gendered experience. Man, woman, NB, straight, and (perhaps especially) gay, that can happen to anyone sociable. The real issue is whether you resolve that tension and move on in a healthy way as you did with your friend, or immaturely brood on it for years and years as incel-types do.
@@theworldlistener1969I love how you acknowledge that the “friendzone” is all inclusive. It reminds me of this one episode of Sex Education where these two girls who were best friends realized that they were both gay and became a couple. I loved that at the end they learned that just because they’re both best friends and gay doesn’t mean that they have to be a couple, and they’re happier being best friends. I can’t imagine how many friendships were ruined by this pressure that if you’re attracted to a particular sex that you have to want to date them. And I wish more shows acknowledged the pressure for queer people too
I think is bc of this trope and the idea that men and women cant be friends, that most married couple (mostly 40 and above), don't have friends of the opposite gender, and it almost seems weird to some people, and if they do, sometimes is met with insinuations of an infidelity. Like im 100% sure that most of our parents don't have friends of the opposite sex.
Most parents don't have friends, period. Not because of tropes but because all your time and money goes into taking care of your kids and maintaining your marriage. It's work, the type you don't get to clock-out from. Plus, spouses tend to not want their spouse to spend time with the opposite sex because sooner or later when the marriage is on the rocks somebody is going to screw up. And that's not something you can recover from. So you keep a short leash and make sure your spouse's friends aren't people they'd be tempted by.
@@keld101 If you're having trust issues so bad that you cannot trust your partner to not cheat on you the second they have a friend from the opposite sex, it's better to break up or have a divorce. The "keeping a short leash" sounds very toxic and controlling. Tara's video really proved why this trope is bad, because people like you are incapable of accepting that people from the opposite sex can be friends. You keep claiming in other comments that you know friendship is possible yet you're still projecting that incel poor me nice guy attitude unto other commenters experiences.
@@galaxyocicat5660 I've noticed this about him too - although I think "Most parents don't have friends" may have finally done my head in. What a load of bs. This is not even remotely borne out by ANY parent I have known - including me and my other parent mates. How can someone be so lacking in the powers of simple observation?
Lol what do you mean our parents don't have friends of the opposite sex? Yes they do. And also are we just not counting forming friendships with our friend's partners? People think of male/female friendships in one or two scenarios, when reality presents us with 50. Which is why these conversations are utterly ridiculous.
beginning to think Tara is actually the cow, but hear me out...the cow is so powerful that she has a human form called Tara and there is a multiverse of different forms of the cow???
Perfect demonstration of why the childhood best friend trope is unrealistic: Hermoine and Ron's actors spoke about how gross they felt with the kiss scene because they had grown up together and felt like siblings🙃
I heard that Rupert had to leave the set when they filmed Hermione and Harry kissing because he was laughing too much at how nonsensical it was to see his two friends kissing
I wouldn't say it's wholly unrealistic. The thing is, they'd always seen each other as basically siblings, so it would be difficult to change that. But there are plenty of friends who had tiny crushes on each other as kids, or who developed such crushes when puberty came, that could become very happy couples.
well it's not that unrealistic, the crush could've started from childhood. it just didn't in this case…i think. i don't remember enough about harry potter but i'm probably right.
I got an ad for a new HBO max show on this. it was like this “three nice guys and 3 fboys we just have to figure out who the f is who“ and I can’t decide whether to laugh or cry
One Piece is my favourite example of platonic relationships, the writer himself even said the crew will never have romantic relationships among each other
Yes! My thoughts exactly. I always loved this fact about One Piece that it displays many different kinds of bonds people can have other than romantic. It's weird to me how people tend to think of romantic relationships as superior to others, because when I think of One Piece, to me, the idea of love among the straw hats would ruin and lessen the amazing friendships they all have.
"It's called self control" defines my situation. I have the biggest crush on my best friend. She's beautiful, smart, funny and caring. But she doesn't like me back. We had a sleepover a few weeks ago and slept in the same bed. I didn't do anything because she wouldn't have wanted to. I slept and that was it. It's really not that hard.
@@sammjaisais7135 I think they just don’t know how to spell “Dude, you’re awesome” and like I get it, awesome can be a pretty tough word and there’s two too many yours if you ask me
It does feel like you have to leave your balls at home sometimes though. Like you're her friend, but never someone attractive to her. You have no choice but to be her friend.
I read this line from a fanfic: "Even if he called it off. You were never just friends. Friends aren’t /just/ anything." It really changed my outlook on friendships with someone you liked. Even if you weren't dating, that's not a downgrade. You are just as valuable to them as they are to you.
as someone on the aroace spectrum, the whole “more than friends” thing is so weird to me. what makes relationships so much more than friendships? why do people spend significantly more time with their romantic partners than their friends? the whole thing is weird to me
@@yorak6793 the whole "more than friends" thing is so internalized in me that i still struggle and have to constantly remind myself that romance is not the end goal. i agree with you, it's definitely weird
@@yorak6793 I’d say it’s just something you won’t be able to truly ever understand because you don’t experience it. Such is life, it be like that sometimes.
@@jennamallow mm but i’m not entirely sure that’s true. at times in my life i’ve felt compelled to pass time with a certain person more than any others. is that what makes it romantic? or is romance the butterfly feeling i felt as a kid one time (i haven’t since)? maybe it’s more that i platonically fall in love with people so it confuses me. i guess i’ll probably never be able to understand the less murky romance = all consuming thing you mention though lol. or perhaps we’ve been trained that that’s the only form of romance
@@yorak6793 I’d say romance is a mix of wanting to spend more time with that person and those butterflies/other things people tend to mention when talking about having a crush, but it also depends on their love language. But yea there are so many different types of love so it makes sense that people can get confused sometimes. I personally have mistaken platonic fondness for having a crush on someone, when I actually didn’t lol. Having a romantic crush on someone is definitely more than just wanting to be around them more than others tho imo, because I feel that way about my best friend or other close friends sometimes and ik I wouldn’t date them
I just finished watching new girl. I think it was a fun show. I was just disappointed that one character voted republican and seemed to be against abortion. I guess they did it so conservatives wouldn't stop watching
Because I remembered about Stranger Things quite recently, I wanna say Robin and Steve are a great platonic guy & gal duo. Though Steve admitted that he was crushing on her at some point, he dropped any romantic inclination towards her the moment she came out to him and even so their dynamic hasn't changed basically at all. Continued being besties just as before. Love that!!
True but then it kinda enforces the idea that if she was straight...they’d get together. Like how the show pairs off both Eleven and Max despite them being even younger
Well, I'll talk about my own experience, me and 2 other girls have been friends with a guy for more than 3 years .. and none of us want to have sex with him nor does he want to have sex with us ... It's like he's a brother to me I just can't do it. I've also been friends with attractive guys for years and never had the unstoppable urge to *explode* with them because ✨ *Self-control* ✨
I'll just say this, I think this whole debate has gotten more and more shallow over the past several decades. The initial societal question that was being asking was: could a man and a women with no previous history together and who were reasonably compatible with one another (a.k.a. heterosexual singles that get along with eachother and are both reasonably attractive) form and maintain a close intimate lifelong friendship together without ever developing and acting on their romantic feelings. In reality, the overwhelmingly result of testing is no, and overwhelmingly the failure comes from the male side. There are exceptions in extreme cases, but in the vast vast majority of instances at least one party will develop feelings and will act on them given enough time. Why is this the reality we live in? Why can't people just keep it in their pants and be happy with the great things they already have? I don't know. Can men and women get along, be friends, and even develop an intimate platonic relationship? Of course! That's not even that uncommon. But there are almost always other factors involved like having a failed romantic past together, or psychological trauma that affects romantic drive, or one party is already romantically occupied and satiated, or the guy just doesn't personally find the female attractive for whatever reason, etc. What bothers me about this is how unfathomably blind women can be to this even when, as a guy, it can appear so blatantly obvious from an onlookers perspective that the "guy friend" wants to pursue a romantic relationship. And even after being explicitly confronted about it by the "guy friend" women will insist that it was just a fluke and none of her other guy friends wouldever do that, rinse and repeat. From a man's perspective this is just baffling, but eventually you just learn to accept it and move on. Men don't understand women. Women don't understand men. Life goes on.
@@keld101 I knew it from the previous weird comments. A nice guy (or incel) has infiltrated the comment section. You just needed time to take the mask off. It funny because you people are the ones viewing these issues in very shallow ways, you're projecting this outdated dichotomy of men and women and how they're like aliens to each other when in reality we are much more diverse than that and are capable of relating to each other contrary to what you think. It's dumb to be accusing women of being "blind" or stupid for "not understanding" men as if women never experienced being friendzoned or developing romantic feelings for their best friends, or even rejection when they tried to pursue it. Stop projecting your personal issues unto a whole group of people. This is not a women's or men's issue, it's a you issue.
@@keld101 uhhhh okay? What you said doesn’t change anyone’s behaviour at all. Women will continue being friends with men even if the men secretly like them. Who cares
18:40 As an ace, this part just gets to me. I guess it's because I am a girl, but people I know just consider it so childish every time I say my end goal is to live a life where I can have lots of meaningful friendships and adopt a kid.
Holy crap, the fact that anyone would consider it selfish that you want to devote your life to friends and ADOPT A KID WHO NEEDS A FAMILY… I- 🤯 Screw whoever said that, you are fucking amazing 💙 You are valid as you are, friend. 👏
The Disney film "Lemonade Mouth" is one the few movies that I have seen that show us a platonic love interest. It's really nice the way they teach that sometimes we don't end with the person that we like and we have to move on.
@@keld101 Bro what is wrong with you you're commenting under every comment lmaooo. Just accept that some people aren't shitty and can see women as people, not just potential romantic partners.
@@Nyxthebat04 This particular community of subscribers tends to be conflict avoidant so I have to cast a lot of fairly inflammatory hooks to get people to be willing to debate. It's not a very critically minded audience either but I typically find one or two people who actually know their stuff well enough to stand their ground and put up solid arguments. You can learn a lot fairly quickly on niche controversies via this method. Unfortunately I also get a lot gullible morons like you who have nothing to add responding with nothing but ad hominems. In particular thread I'm pointing out how bi's tend to be eccentric self-distructice pleasure seekers. Hopefully someone will make some good counter I didn't think of. It's always fun to be stumped.
@@keld101 You seem like you have some issues. I mean, we all do, but you're taking them out on other people. Some bi guy disagrees with you in a comments section and then doesn't reply. That means that bi guys are self destructive pleasure seekers and Tara's audience are avoidant morons! Ever think that you're the problem, and that people might not reply to you because their lives don't rely on UA-cam comment sections? The friendzone is not just when a person likes a friend, and the other doesn't like them. It's a concept where a man feels entitled to a woman's affection, when the guy isn't really a true friend to the woman, but is just waiting for a fuck. I truly hope you find some worthy opponents by dishing out your hot takes, because you're truly an intellectual.
I'm aromantic lol, so after hearing "He's so nice, why don't you give him a chance?" Even after explaining my feelings nearly everyday, this topic makes my blood boil lol. It is all about just respecting how someone feels. If they aren't comfortable with a relationship, don't pressure them, if you can't get over that you shouldn't be friends with them in the first place.
I remember when I was a kid reading YA books it would always annoy me that the guys and girls NEVER stayed friends. I read so much back then and I don't remember it ever happening. And with me probably bring aromantic and asexual, it made me feel weird that romantic and sexual relationships were SO emphasized in media
im also aroace and seeing them just.. have no men and women just say friends made me feel just uncomfy?? bc why couldnt they just stay friends?? why did they have to get together?? Plus the way its like "oh its so bad to be single you'll be ALONE for the rest of your life and NO ONE will LOVE YOU and you will have NO ONE to LOVE." on blast 25/8 in most media i see is literal torture. can i pls just see a story where ppl can just *stay friends* ???
@@peiithos That has always bothered me, especially in adventure/fantasy YA. I feel like years of surviving deadly adventures is a fundamentally different relationship environment than what you would want for a romantic or married life. It feels like in a lot of the cases that the characters should end up like pseudo-siblings than romantic partners.
guyssss read the Stormlight Archives, that series has SO MANY different kinds of relationships in them, and none of the platonic ones are downplayed as lesser than the romantic ones!
Also a big thing that annoys with these sorts of friendships is that if it is present one of them has to be put into the whole “gay best friend” role which is a whole other situation on its own 💀
Usually the gay friend is just meant to be a foil for the girl and writers don't want to accidentally be forced by fans into a awkward love triangle. Could just as well be a brother or teacher or personified conscious.
I'm so glad you talked about this!! Every time I watch media with opposing gendered-characters I preemptively prepare myself for a forced romance arc because it's used so often it's almost a crutch. With my time at film school I had to watch way too many short films that used this trope so much you would've guessed it was a requirement of the class
I was so pleasantly surprised by the ending of Pacific Rim when the male and female lead don't kiss in the finally. Like I thought they were gonna do that weird thing where CPR turns into kissing, but the just laughed and hugged. Fills me with joy. Edit: Finale? Final? The end of the movie. IDK
@@sftscars Who else would think of the genders as "opposing"? It's a uniquely dramatic view of the world. As if we're on the verge of a battle royal. Sure there's sometimes conflict but on the whole we're usually on the same team.
When marriage or a romantic relationship is seen as the end goal, once they achieve it, the relationship tends to stagnate because they don't see a goal beyond it.
This. And also the honestly sad fact friendship is only seen as a stepping stone to romance when it should be _part_ of it.. How are two people going to be good partners if they can't even be good friends?
Me (trans woman) going to Pride with my best friend (cis man): just having fun Random woman: "Oh, are you two dating?" Me, confused, looking at my lesbian flag: "What?"
male friend: constantly bothers female protagonist, who has always turned him down female protagonist: experiences emotion for the first time male friend: :) female protagonist: yes, YOU, ALL ALONG, I realize now I was waiting for YOU to help me out of this
Unfortunately men who think this also probably think that lesbians fantasise about a man coming in and joining them like they do in the porn they watch 🙄🙄
I've made a pledge to never use "just friends" in conversation talking about someone because it's just so frustrating to see friendship devalued like that. I'm late to this video but ahhh it was great!
I've always had a problem with that phrase, for the same reason! Sounds so diminutive. O.O I've always defaulted to "Oh no, we're not 'like that,'" because it's always felt a bit better to me.
The trip to get the tattoo was absolutely lovely, dear! I'm back from getting the shot, and I'm ready to relax. I hope all of you little subscriptions have a wonderful day!
This trope seems to affect guys more strongly in real life, cause I’m getting real tired of trying to make friends with men while they just want something romantic out of it Just can’t bring myself to even put effort in getting to know them, always seems like they have second intentions
I feel you! I struggle with developing/keeping friendships with men because most of the times when I liked talking to a boy or man, they seemed to develop a crush on me and started making advances. Talking to and meeting up on a regular basis with a man I'm not attracted to often makes me uncomfortable and anxious >.< (They were mostly conventionally unattractive men because I'm incredibly shy around men I or others find attractive, so they might not have been used to getting any neutral/positive attention from girls/women but I don't know..)
@@EleiyaUmei Girl, exact type of situation for me These conventionally unattractive men see kindness or mere politeness as attraction or interest, I think this is one of the ways in which the patriarchal society affects them, they can’t fathom why someone would be nice without second intentions, for them people are only nice because they find you attractive
@@Chocolatindo I don’t like to be like this, but sometimes treating them coldly is the best thing you can do Don’t give them a chance to approach and push their feelings onto you
@@maluzimmermann Can't say if it's due to the patriarchal society but at least because of the plethora of stories (mostly movies and TV series) that portray and feed into this sort of friends-to-lovers-(male-het)fantasy. The male friends there are also often childish, mean etc. and don't need to improve much to get the female love interest to fall in love with them. And I feel like that's one of the reasons a lot of men don't treat women as well and as respectfully as they should..
as an aroace who loves the romance genre, media portrayals of the inevitability of relationships in what seemed like an otherwise normal friendship really screwed with me when I was younger. I thought if a friendship wasn't a relationship i would end up alone and unloved once they found their "real" partner, but at the same time I vehemently denied any relationships offered towards me out of friendships because I didn't know how to feel this particular kind of love they had. It led to a lot of confusion, burned bridges and self hatred that really could've been avoided with a simple, well-informed talk about relationships and friendships from literally anyone.
one GREAT fictional platonic friendship that never crossed that line, not even in an are-they-about-to... way like harry and hermione, is lucas and haley from one tree hill
The worst variation of this trope is the "men and women can't work together without getting together" trope. It's such an ancient sexist idea but is still SO prevalent that I'm genuinely uncomfortable thinking about how it could be contributing to workplace harassment.
Truly. Especially because I have a firm rule that I don't date any colleagues. It's bad enough to deal with a grueling work load. I would hate to bring relationship drama to that same space.
It's probably not ancient, it's probably just as old as the industrial revolutions strengthening patriarchy removing casual relationships from peoples lives and turning us towards individualism, and yeah I completely agree
Men denying a possibility of platonic opposite sex friendship even though A LOT of women have an experience in being friends with men and say that it is possible, just shows that men once again dismiss women's opinions. Fellas, if most women say that opposite sex friendship is something they had/have then... Maybe that's true? What you, men, believe is not always the truth or the "law".
Do you think it might be possible that the men in the friendships you’ve described secretly want more out of the friendship? And do you also think it’s possible that the women who’ve described these friendships have no actual idea what their guy friends are thinking? And while we’re at it, I’d also humbly like you to consider the possibility that some women also will have crushes on men that aren’t into them; men that may even friendzone them to avoid being seen as a dick. Truth is, friendships between men and women aren’t impossible, but they’re inherently more challenging for obvious reasons. So pretending that they’re exactly the same as platonic same sex relationships with no possibility for difficulty or awkwardness is just silly. If attraction is present, unrequited or not, it imbalances the friend dynamic and makes it difficult for both sides to see just friendship as an appealing option.
@@jeremyterkelsen2518 I have many platonic male friends. I also married one of my male friends. Out of my platonic male friends, one is gay, one is a straight man who is happily married to the love of his life, and who knows that I am married to the love of my life, and several are single but understand that I am never going to break up with my partner for them. Is it possible some of them find me attractive and want to sleep with me? Sure. Does that mean they would try anything and ruin the friendship or their existing relationship? No. Also just because two people who would never cross a boundary with each other find each other attractive doesn't make their friendship less platonic. The aforementioned friend married to his soulmate is hot. I can tell he thinks I'm attractive. But neither of us has ever said anything nor would we because we love our spouses MORE than we are attracted to each other. It's like the concept of self control is beyond some of y'all. Not every attraction is something that I even want to act on. But just because I'm married and faithful doesn't mean I'm blind lol.
UGH THIS. I had a conversation, which turned into an argument a couple years ago with a man under Steve Harvey’s god awful video saying men and women can’t be friends, (basically saying because straight men are all predators) and I said that I’ve been friends with a guy for years and he has a fiancé and I get along with her too. And he just was interrogating me and telling me to ask him if he would ever sleep with me and I just……
@@WrathofFenrir99 if being friends with ANY women makes them a nice guy, doesn't that mean they only see women as potential sex partners rather than.. i don't know, people? that's not a good sign.
i started watching criminal minds recently and i love morgan and garcia's friendship and how (shocker) they aren't interested in each other romantically
Ignoring Keld, I agree with u totally :) I'm a big time Criminal Minds fan and I always adored how Morgan and Garcia have a fully platonic relationship and yet they express physical affection to each other and can playfully flirt with one another and stay in a platonic relationship :)
Honestly, having this trope deeply internalized in me has made it really hard to ever make friends with the opposite sex when im constantly worried that whatever "friendship" we'll have will inevitably develop into romance because supposedly one of us is bound to fall in love at some point 😒 Really though, i just wanna be friends...with everyone/anyone 😭 girl or guy guy or girl i just wanna be chill with everyone
From my experience, when you are friends with many people and it is roughly a 50/50 split (because that's how humans work... if you meet a random person there is a 50% chance of it being male or female...) then it is never an issue that 'someone is going to fall in love'. I find life simpler to just become friends with people who are fun to talk to and have similar hobbies and have common goals. No quotas of 'this' many male friends vs 'this' many female friends. Yeah, there have been a few times in my life where someone I was friends with brought up the topic of perusing further romance. (certainly a small percentage of the people I have been friends) But after explaining I was focused on other things and not looking for romance, things went back to normal. I think it only gets toxic when you have a person who only has one particular 'friend' of the opposite sex while not overall viewing the opposite sex as a whole as just normal people like anyone else. But maybe I'm bias, I wouldn't say I am asexual and aromantic but I lean pretty close to that and usually find other things in life much more interesting than romance and sex.
18:50 as someone under the aromantic spectrum i really appreciate this part, it's really nice. People make you think that you MUST get into a romantic relationship at some point and otherwise you're "missing out", "heartless" or "will die alone"
same, also aromantic, and it's like what am I missing out on? Compromising my dreams? My own space? My 'me' time? And I have plenty of good friends who will be there when I die and I couldn't give less of a cr*p about anyone else. I don't understand why my end goal 'must' be a romantic relationship I have more important things to focus on
@@peiithos Another aro ace here, I can’t begin to tell how annoying this view of “females and males can’t be friends” is. I’ve been shipped with a few of my guy friends and it really ruins the friendship. Why do people act like guys are always trying to have sex or find a girlfriend like that’s all they do?
I know this is discussing the hetero-normative version, but if a Pansexual person believed it, they'd be one of the loneliest people on earth...Asexuals would be the inverse.
I always hated this trope. I've had several female friends, some of whom I was close to. I did date one but the rest were just my friends. I think it's important, especially in children and teens, for girls to have guy friends and vice versa. Girls need a positive, non-familial male role model who won't try to sleep with them. They need a guy to rely on and trust. They need to know that guys aren't all looking for sex. Guys, meanwhile, need a positive female role model to allow them to see women as not just sex objects. Even for adults, it's important.
I feel my huge problem with this trope is that it's never ( or very rarely) been best friends to lovers. It's usually like person A has always had a crush on person B and then person B comes around eventually or the relationship comes out of nowhere. We never normally get to see two people who share an equal platonic love for one another, who have solid chemistry grow with one another and develop these romantic feelings together while still having that foundation of friendship. We never get to see how intricate and beautiful this trope is because of how people have written relationships like this.
I think in the Percy Jackson Books the trope works very well because there is like 4 books of developement before they realise their feelings but it was shown from the beginning, that their hemistry is great
Ron and Hermione also. This is probably also age-based, but neither one pines for too long. Plus, Harry and Hermione and Harry and Luna are platonic only, so it does not deny the existence if such relationships.
This is literally the relationship between Kim Possible and Ron Stoppable (who is one of the few "best friends to lovers" that really works, because you see them being actual friends for three season)
I had a guy pretend to be my best friend for 12 years, entire time he just wanted to get in my pants. I think I rejected him about 3 times before eventually he made moves on me while I was asleep. I don’t really know why I tried to salvage that friendship, I think it was because of my insistent belief that men and women could be platonic friends, but, it was definitely ruined for me.
Sorry you had to go through that. That guy sounds like Big Ed when he talked about ‘being in the friend zone’ for 13 years, when in actuality he didn’t tell his friend how he felt about her for 13 years, hoping something was going to just happen, giving his supposed friendship a duplicitous and disingenuous quality
Yup, but even then feelings often still develop. It's a utilitarian thing. You're a girl. You're here. The guy's already invested. In the guys head a switch gets flipped and then eventually he realizes he might as well give it a go. If it's a guy friend they usually have good intentions, at least at the beginning.
I feel like so many male female relationships have so much more depth and meaning when it's platonic. The friendships feel so much more genuine and beautiful than the romances. I really like these relationships but there are so few of them. The last one I read about was in a YA series. The main character has a really close friendship with one of the male characters. It was such a wonderful relationship and the best in the whole series.
The other thing that happens with this trope is that it holds up childhood romances as superior to other types. Relationships aren't worse because you met as adults.
I have a lot of strong feelings on this subject. I am male, and I have had close female friendships going back to preschool. In my last year of high school, my social circle was almost entirely female (with one exception). I dealt with piles of shippers back then, and the question of senior prom (to which I took someone as a friend) devolved into a shipping war resembling that caused by a harem anime. Some of the time the attention was fun, but a lot of the time it was annoying, and I've always been bothered by the sheer lack of representation in media for what was to me normality - people who like similar stuff hanging out and talking about it. I was recently talking with a female friend about gender stuff and she remarked that some of her male friends had stopped hanging out with her after they learned she was in a relationship. She said other friends of hers had reported this as well, and I found that to be really sad. Hang out with cool people because they're cool! (Though I will say that I think part of the reason I had so many female friends was that I wasn't attempting to date any of them, and that made them feel more comfortable around me - we were all "just" friends and that was a good thing.)
I get you , man ! 'Shipping' ruined my elementary school life . I was best friends with a boy when I was a kid , we practically grew up together because our moms befriended each other while picking us up from daycare . But when we were in first and second grade a few classmates started a rumor we were involved in 'that way' behind our backs - by classmates I mean seven and eight year olds who watched too many TV shows about kids falling in love . And let's just say things went downhill from then on . I met and befriended another girl in my class who was new to the school when we sat together in the bus ( I was ranting about the mean kids and she taught me a new swear word - 'bitchy'' to use in place of 'mean' ) . And my male best friend eventually found his own crowd and we had to pretend we were never friends or acquaintances or anything . By the time our last year of elementary rolled around we literally ran away from each other even during shared classes because of those memories and spent our middle and high school careers ignoring each other when our moms met for shopping or dinner because at that point we were actually teens who had romantic feelings for other people and it was too awkward . So yeah , I wish the media would stop sexualising everything from platonic opposite sex relationships to close sibling bonds (like , the amount of movies and TV shows on brother and sister incest are alarming) . Becuase it affects real children . I still believe that I would be less picky about friends and more genuine about in real feelings if my first friendship hadn't been sexualised and I'd found exactly what 'fucking' was at age 13 like a normal person rather than when I was 8 .
@@jules2291 Referring to the example in the video about Jake and Amy from Brooklyn 99, there's actually a scene that shows a flashback at soon after Jake and Amy became friends and Charles shipped them. Jake and Amy remark that Charles shipping them only distanced them from each other and set back their eventual realization that they liked each other romantically. I wish people understood that in real life. Friends might become romantically in love eventually, but they certainly would not if people kept forcing them into it. Just let people have whatever friendships or romances they want without judgment.
For F sake, that's sad. It really proves it's all too true, most men will just hang around you hoping to get some. How the F are we supposed to ever trust a guy after this and that etc.
@@keld101 You really are incapable of viewing women as people you can just chill with, are you? Incels really lack self awareness. They complain about being alone and how no woman wants them but will be overly judgemental when a woman shows that she's capable of pooping. If you're so grossed out by human beings doing human things, get a sex doll or a robot as your gf.
The "friends to lovers" trope (or at least the lazy version of it) isn't just full of "nice guys" -- it basically *is* the "nice guy" of relationship tropes. The whole narrative logic is "I'm her friend, so I get right of first refusal on a relationship" -- and yeah, the "nice guy" is the "I" there because stories using the trope are so often male-gazey as hell.
I always found it funny that (at the time these movies were made anyway) no one would have seriously said that gay men couldn’t just be friends with men, or lesbian women couldn’t be friends with women. It’s how I figured that the statement, “Herero men and women can’t be friends” was complete BS.
I actually disagree... partially? I'm just going off of memory here but i think that gay men being with other gay men (same w lesbians) is usually fine, but the idea that gay people can't be friends with straight people of the same gender has been weirdly reinforced by media. Like the whole "gay guy is secretly in love with his straight friend" trope is just the same trope but without a "happy ending". Also the fact that gay men especially are often depicted as having mainly or only female friends. And a lot of people irl internalized the whole "if someone is attracted to you and you know it, you can't be friends" to extend to gay people
It's because gay people are minority and heterosexuals are everywhere so ppl expect a girl to be 90% attracted to a male friend and vise versa. What is stupid.
As a former “nice guy,” I’m so grateful you pointed out how this stereotype - and the forced “friends to lovers” trope - reinforce the myth of being “friend zoned.” In hindsight, I feel so bad for times I felt like “but…. I’m the real friend, shouldn’t she be with me?? 🥺🥺” And…… I’ve also had the reverse happen (albeit women are far less likely to be *aggressive* over this), where I’d be guilted so hard for not wanting to date a friend. “She’s such a good friend! Why aren’t you dating? Is it because she isn’t pretty enough? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!”
Also…. Yeah… platonic friendships are EXTREMELY fulfilling. And I also don’t know why the “romantic relationship” is seen as the “ultimate end goal.” Like- i feel like the most common form of “advice/reassurance” people give when someone is lonely is “aww, cheer up! You’ll find her eventually!!!” Like…… what if that’s not even what I’m trying to find…? 🙄 but people insist “aww but your goal is to get married! So you’ll find her eventually!” ^^when….no, no it isn’t my goal
omg sometimes this plot just pisses me off! especially when there were no romantic feeling and no 'spark' between characters at all...like..their romance at the end was so unnecessary..
Fun fact: When Harry Met Sally is based on the real life friendship between Rob Reiner and Nora Ephron (the director and screenwriter) who did not end up together. Harry and Sally were initially supposed to not end up together either but the actors chemistry was too good.
I thought no one was going to say this. I feel exactly the same way. I’m currently writing a story about a female-male beautifully wholesome childhood friendship. I want them to end up together because they complement each other so well but at the same time I’m tempted make it so they stay friends. The thing is, I don’t see them with anyone else. I can’t wrap my head around this, it’s killing me.
@@mirandajones7816 male them have a small friend group so that they can have meaningful opposite sex relationships but also date their childhood friend. maybe even make their bestie a different person not the love interest
I've always liked that Nick and Jess were friends, like actual friends, and then dated, and then were friends again, like actual friends, and then dated again. Some people didn't like how it took away the will they or won't they, but it was about they are actually stable parts of each other's life
About the thumbnail before watching the actual video: Harry and Hermione were a perfect platonic relationship, and in the books Hermione and Ron actually made a lot of sense together. Then Rowling had to come along and ruin it... -like she does with everything nowadays-
I love When Mike Wazowski Met Sally
*roundie boi*
My favorite movie 😩♥️
Miko Zaki
Sully*
More like When Mike Wazowski Met Anastasia Romanova.
"men and women can't be friends" leads to "i hate my wife/husband" jokes
And they wonder why they're married to people They're not compatible with when they push bs like this.
Holy shit yes, this is sooooo true.
Lots of people internalized this. I can never just be friends with a guy without him wanting something sexually from me. It sucks.
Oooffff, I think you’re right, bro
ew that reminded me of my toxic "ex" (less of an ex but more of a dynamic where I couldn't leave the dude) who believed in the "men and women can't be friends" belief, saying that "friendship and relationships can't coexist". Sucks ass to see people who actually believe in that
if men and women can’t be ”just friends” then maybe me being bi is the reason why i don’t have friends :(
Me, a bi who married my best and only friend: ....oh
Damn...
Cries in pansexual
I'll be friends with you pitbull🥺🥺
Hello, UA-cam user 'deez nuts', I would like to be your friend 🤠
I think that arguably the worst part of the 'friendzone' is the implication that a woman's friendship has no value.
🙌🏻 THIS 🙌🏻 Gosh, it’s like having her friendship equals failure. 🙄
What's that twitter screen shot going around that's a guy saying something like "Women who are friends with you expect you to emotionally support them and then they don't put out." Like the only reason to be friends with a woman is because it could lead to sex.
Doesnt "being in friendzone" mean that you actually fall in love with someone who doesnt feel it the same...and you just kinda got "friendzoned" till you learn to see this person as a friend rather than someone you love romanticaly? Whats the deal about It ? Of course its bad when someone is friend with a person just because they are atracted to them but thats not really what friendzone is or ?
@@sylvestersmetanka4224 technically you're right, but lots of people (especially men) consider the friendzone something horrible like a punishment bc they feel entitled that the lady feels the same way they do. Which is weird because entitlement shouldnt be relevant to this topic. I could be wrong tho but I'm pretty sure thats it
@@30seagullsinatrenchcoat11 This whole network of stupid gendered expectations is related to so many things.
For example how pick up artists and men in general always talk about "getting a girl into bed" and basically talking her into sex. At least in my language there are a lot of words that indicate it's totally normal how women have to be persuaded to sleep with you.
What happened to enthusiastic consent? How is this not part of rape culture?
What really drove it home for me was seeing a tweet like "Guys, if you ever feel bad because a girl has 'friendzoned' you, just think about what it must feel like for her to be 'fuckzoned,' as if her friendship is worth nothing."
PREACH!
Exactly! I would never complain about just being friends with a guy I found attractive, that would be whiny and petty. When a guy complains that I've "friendzoned" him, I feel like what he's really saying is that the only worthwhile thing about me is what's between my legs. At least it helps me weed out all the shallow, pathetic ones right away.
Nicely put
666th like!
I'm a bi woman and I was best friends with this guy for nearly ten years. I noticed how he seemed fine if I liked a girl but if I liked a guy he would get weird and passive aggressive. I finally decided to say to him "I found that comment a bit passive aggressive" and, long story short, he had a massive tantrum that lasted 6 months and he started posted all these lyrics on Twitter like "thought she was the one but she was sexing everyone but me" and "I've got a hole where my heart is coz I've got a ho where my heart is". So, yeah, felt great knowing that nearly a decade of close friendship was apparently worthless if I wasn't going to sleep with him/let him be a dick to me if I wanted to sleep with a guy that wasn't him.
Why can’t ALL UA-cam videos be written by cows? You’re changing the game.
They could if people wouuld stop eating them.
cow supremacy
Cow lives matter
Honestly the take men and women cannot be friends is so oversaturated in film and tv, that growing up I completely internalized it. I really had to unpack this idea because it made me struggle with jealously when my partners had female friends. And looking back it makes me so mad, that there was zero representation of female/male friendships, when at the same time two people of the same gender could have the best chemistry but it's just played of as "they are just really good friends".
Yeah, but I will say sometimes jealous is warranted and healthy. When you're dating you're supposed to let your significant other roam free to some degree because you're trying to figure out what type of person they really are. It's better to find out they won't be faithful while dating than while married. But when you are married jealousy is sometimes appropriate. If your spouse is spending personal time with someone of the opposite sex and you don't know who they are or aren't comfortable with it you have every right to demand to meet them and decide if you're okay with them spending time together. Sometimes you just got to go with your gut. Marriage is tough and sometimes you gotta do unpleasant things to make it work. Marriage isn't the place for naive trust. When times are hard spouses will screw up if left unchecked even if they had the best of intentions initially.
@@keld101 …they weren’t talking about marriage?? At all???
@@keld101 Very weird that you went straight to assuming that they want to get married.
@@mythicalsubscriber3486 Forgive me for bringing up the next step in the process and explaining how many people can over correct?
@@galaxyocicat5660 I didn't assume anything. Most people aren't dating for entertainment so it makes sense to give advice against over correcting in future steps.
Honestly as a guy. I just want a movie that is just purely about friendship. No unrequited love or sex. Just friendship. Just a movie about a group of friends exploring their life together. Something like that.
So like the show friends but no one gets together
@@Panda-gx2rsA
Maze runner is a bit like that but it's a dystopia horror. Stand by me, the goonies are some old films. I haven't seen many with mixed boy and girl friend groups.
It's not a movie, but I think the first arc of the Wings of Fire book series does a good job of this. The main characters grow up together and, while things like crushes between them are explored, they end up growing into a tight family unit who would go through hell and high water for each other instead of all pairing off. Admittedly, the fandom is a bit triggerhappy with the shipping, but what can you do.
@@trinefanmelyes! As much as I love Sunny and Starflight together, I think it was so much better that she rejected him. Platonic relationships are so underrated and WOF did a good job at depicting them!
"Why is a romantic relationship considered superior to a friendship?" THANK! you!
Ikr!!! This is when we idealize relationships. We put people on pedastols and then believe this one magic person will come save is and fulfill all our dreams and wishes. We have been so conditioned and sold on this ‚The One‘ Idea when it comes to love relationships, that we forget how valuable and important all relationships are.
Something I heard my favorite Relationship Therapist say is that: I takes a village to raise a child.
We need different kind of people we need community around us. There is so much room for exploration in friendships as well.
When I was healing my relationship wounds I entered a woman workshop only to realize that actually I have a deep sisterhood wound as well, and that I crave deep intimate (not sexual) connections with females too.
We really all need sacred brother and sisterhood outside of our romatic relationships.
I think it‘s like the most important pillar of stability tbh
Because of s3x, physical intimacy as well as emotional support which you already get from the friendship so relationships offer more from a guy's perspective. As a girl I find it weird but I know that a lot of guys are desperate and lonely.
@@michaelhomes8049 I get it... I wish it didn't, but I do. It would be nice if it mattered less before any entanglements ensued though. Thanks for the compliment.
@@michaelhomes8049 what's the obvious answer? I'm clueless.
@@michaelhomes8049 I see. I thought you'd give a different answer.
"when harry meets sally" is a great documentary about heterosexuality
In one hundred years when gender doesn’t exist we will look back on it and cringe /j
@@cadenceolivia6304 we will all be smooth-crotched robots ✌😩🙆
I liked their friendship 😭.
In the original plan they were supposed to stay just friends.
@@flamebunny6511 Omg I didnt know that! I love that movie but them staying friends would have made so much more sense. As is it seems like the message is yes, men and women can be friends, but only as a precursor to a relationship 😂
@@stellablake6200 I think it was based off the friendship between the screenwriter and someone else working behind the scenes. They are still friends 🙂.
In an interview, Emma Watson actually talks about the romance scenes between her and Rupert Grint feeling weird because they practically grew up together and were like siblings.
The actors yes, but they're different from the characters. The characters had feelings for each other for years, almost from the beginning. Although you can only see that in the books, as the movies completely destroyed the characters and their relationships to each other.
@@mariannek6735 Yeah, it would make sense that the actors being uncomfortable would make their relationship feel weirder in the movies than in the books. I never read them as a kid so I found the movie romance really off-putting.
@@hgrubb3317 maybe is because i read the books first, but i would say it was nit that bad carried in the movies. Hermione and ron are always more awkward with physical affection towards each other than towards harry. In the second movie , when hermione is healed from being petrified and meets them in the great hall, she hugs harry without thinking it twice...but then with ron, it becomes awkward quickly and then end just shaking hands instead. That right there was evidence of romace, because you don't have a problem usually hugging someone you only have platonic feelings for, but would def feel more nervous about hugging your crush
@@nessyness5447 Yeah plus there's all their friendly bickering which is just awful in the movies (or so i'm told: I never watched the movies). I think it was Quinn Curio who had a good video about the way Ron's character in the movies was absolutely slaughtered.
@@tortis6342 the romantic subplots in general were destroyed in the movies and not given any development, tbh. I still like the movies tho, because of the aesthetic and i the actors are great. But to actually get the stories and the characters, better the books.
the whole "just friends" thing REALLY irks me as an ace-spec person because it just reminds me of how everyone else seems to think that the most meaningful relationships are romantic and sexual in nature and it just... ugh
I'm also ace-spec and I hate how I cannot hang out with my guy friends in peace without having someone asking "So, are you gonna date one of them soon?". I swear these people are jealous of my friendships with those who are of the opposite gender. But, they won't admit it.
I'm not ace but I really wish I could have better friendships I feel like I'm always second to their partner :(
I have my own and the reason we get along so well is just because we meet up so often
I want my friends who want to meet up as often just us two
it's really annoying
@@thebookwormhotel5336 familiar. The classic ace-fear of always being second to sb else.
Agreed. I think it also reveals just why we aroaces still find ourselves not being accepted or having people doubt our orientation. People think that someone can't possibly have value if there's no romance or sexytimes involved, so they believe we're making excuses instead of just merely seeing friendship as enough.
As a bi woman you have no idea how many people are just as tired of this trope as you.
Apparently I can’t be left in a room alone with a friend of any gender, I will try to sex them. 😂
Also don’t appreciate the ace-spectrum characterization of ‘normals’ as putting sex over everything else….
I had two male best friends in college. One assaulted me because he couldn't wrap his head around the fact that I didn't want to date him. The other one helped me heal from that, and never crossed any line I put down. Hell, for the first few months of our friendship I refused to even be in a closed room with him alone. But he listened and cared, and we both agreed we didn't want or need to be anything more than we were. A big reason I was able to move past my new found trust issues was because of the kindness he offered me. It is so important that EVERYONE believe that men and women can be friends, because if even one person believes that's impossible, it always leads to someone else being seriously hurt. I wish this trope would just burn out already
Dang 💞 you’re strong. Thank you for sharing your story and spitting facts 👏
I’m so sorry you had to go through that
So sorry that happened to you sending you love and support.
2nd man W
If you're only "friends" with someone in the hopes they'll get together with you, you're not truly their friend....
Exactly, you are just pretending to be friends.
When did I ask to be “friends”? I already have enough of them
Exactly, finally someone said it. It's so gross, that some guys pretend to be a women's friend just to get sex from her, that's so selfish. And when they get rejected, instead of respecting a women's decision, they get angry, try to manipulate or force her.
THIS
kinda a male power fantasy tbh, expecting a "reward" for being nice and friends with someone, needles to say how toxic that is
what i hate about it is the whole "this guy DESERVED her more." Why do people and fans feel like a woman OWES a man/ a girl OWES a boy sex or romance for being a friend to her?? Like there's no deserving here that's disgusting to me
I always think of Minnie Driver's line in Grosse Pointe Blank: "You don't get to have me!"
no this.. like wtf.. i write stories myself and have on several accounts made fun of this concept.. a good example of this would be Raktha who is completely asexual aromantic. he wants nothing to do with nothing of that shit so of course naturally he'd probably just walk away from this buffoonery. then another one of my characters Haevyn is quite similar in this manner though he is straight he doesn't see the point in a relationship because of his nature.. basically he recieved the power over time when he was a child and thus is unable to age the normal way (he can change his age whenever he wants and there are some other things he can do that are a bit more complicated.. but basically if it has anything to do with time he can most likely control it) so naturally he also doesn't really abide by the same rules of time someone else would what for you could be years could feel like mere minutes to him sure he could go back at any point aswell as forward but he feels like it would be too much micromanaging to get into a relationship so he just doesn't feel like even trying (i suppose you could say he's a bit lazy the way he deals with a fight is often just skipping to the end or turning the enemies into babies so the fight would be over. after all why bother even fighting when you can just wave a finger and end it immideately.. of course not every fight is this easy as he ends up learning later on in his story but hey.)
another fun little detail about him is how in their universe he is actually the mona Lisa.. the story goes that he went back after a trip to the louvre with his adoptive parents (he's an alien that ended up on earth and his adoptive parents are scottish wich is why his last name is McKenzie wich is actually a nod towards a family i got really attached to in the sims 3 that i created around when island living came out.. the narrative was that the mum was a lifeguard at the local beach and the dad was a well known artist.. they ended up having several children and a parrot) so intrigued in the painting and noticing it kind of looked like himself he decided to investigate it further.. so he overshot a bit with his timing and ended up a bit before the painting was even started so of course da vinci notices him sees his abnormal features (he's a Vulcan you know based on star trek so he has pointy ears and pretty striking features) so he instantly decides yes you i've gotta paint you next ! so davinci drags him to his studio and paints him.. then one of davinci's relatives sees the painting when it's finished and is shocked saying A DEMON A DEMON ! of course the people of this time would think something so archaic so davinci has to think of a way to present it anyways and decides to ask Haevyn who then replies in his thick scottisch accent "well you could make me a wee lassy or something" and thus the mona lisa was born.
I'll just start this comment by stating I'm a girl.
I can somewhat understand that mentality, because when youre on the "guy's" side - the person who is into the other party - and the two of you are really close together yet they fail to see you in a romantic light it can get extremely frustrating and you can start asking yourself why is the world so cruel and why cant they just like me.
Ive never experienced the other side of things where you are the one expected to like somebody you just see as a friend but i can also see how that would be disturbing and kind of make you not want to even be friends anymore.
What I'm saying is the former point of view doesn't come from stupidity, it just comes from frustration. And in cases in which the two people cant get together and the first person can't muffle their own feelings well enough either, maybe the best call is to just terminate the friendship entirely.
@@CreeketsCreek i was talking about fans/ exterior ppl tho, people who blame the girl or say mean things about her for not giving sex or romance to a guy
Yep that's why I find the whole concept of "friend zone" so disgusting
I truly hate the idea of a “friend zone”. It just shows that a lot of men don’t really value a woman’s friendship. It also makes “getting the girl” more of a chase, which means that when a woman turns a man down, he thinks it means try harder.
True there's a lot of weird ideals of straight couples and seeing relationships as a final goal in a race, ie being childhood friends is a start, being friend zoned pushes you back, and when someone doesn't immediately respond to a message you send you make them wait for you for hours counting it down like a chase?
It’s not necessarily that men don’t value friendships with women, they simply overvalue romantic relationships and when the possibility of one fizzles out, it’s disappointing for obvious reasons. I mean I’m no expert on psychology, but I can guarantee that a woman who is rejected by a man who “just wants to be friends” will feel the same sense of disappointment as a man in the same situation. When you want something more out of a relationship, it’s very hard to settle for less.
@@jeremyterkelsen2518 @Jeremy Terkelsen I agree on the "men overvaluing romantic relationships" part but as a woman who's made a move on a male friend and got rejected, I can say that while I was (obviously) disappointed, I respected him wanting to just be friends. Didn't pester him about how much I like him or try to emotionally manipulate him into being with me - which are things male friends have done to me after being romantically rejected. And of course there are women who do act like that but I think there's just waaay more men compared to women. There's a sense of entitlement. Being disappointed someone doesn't wanna date you is one thing, unrelentingly trying to force someone to be with you is another. And it's not that hard either, or at least when you respect the other person's boundaries it isn't
Yeah it’s kinda odd
@@WrathofFenrir99 I just do my absolute best to avoid any man as much as possible, because most of them just creep me out 😔
But not all of them are as shallow as you described and can be reasonable I’d say
I think its interesting how in this trope, the guy friend is usually already into the girl and the girl is just expected to go along with it and suddenly find him attractive.
Even when the story is about the girl, it is still centred on the long term fantasy the boy has of finally nailing his "friend".
Yep. It really feeds into the trope that women “have no idea what they really want”
@@lara-qi7up Does anyone at that young of age?
Because that's what the romantic frustrations of every young man in middle and high school looks like. It's fantasy wish fulfillment. For female protagonist stories the writer's problem is often that female audience members want the romantic interest to be so deep and badass that there isn't any room left to develop an interesting female protagonist. You'd need a full series to do justice to both. Instead they opt to invest resources in developing the romantic interest and rely on well know archetypes to develop the female protagonist.
@@keld101 Women can think for themselves, same with young girls. Don't twist the words to try and justify whatever bs you're trying to make up.
@@keld101 How do you know that that's what female audiences want? Are the wine moms who watch fifty shades of grey your basis for that? Cause I see many women who are asking for well developed female characters, even the UA-camr you watch is one of them.
Two people: Exist beside each other
Everyone else: *yall dating?*
You can be friends with any gender.
Also this also feeds the belief to nice guys that if they are friendly to girls they will get in their pants and freak out when they don't.
yo once in primary school a guy came and asked me something and then left and his friend asked "are u guys dating?"
and the guy who asked was my crush. How shameless of him
But imagine if that inquiry wasn't the norm. The results would likely be bad because people would be constantly hitting on another person's significant other unknowingly. Which is even more annoying.
@@keld101 or maybe people would act reasonably and have healthy ideas about how relationships work??
More accurately, I'd say it potientially feeds into the belief that Nice Guys have that friendship with women have no value outside of as a transition into romance. That's why they freak out when told no; the "friendship" they have with the woman of their choice is seen as a transaction that she hasn't held up her side of.
When I was in elementary school I tagged a boy more than the others cause' he cheated less. Then (using a fake name here) _David_ just has to say something like "haha why so you tag him so much? You must like him!" thanks for ruining tag and being friends with boys for me, _David._ Suddenly most of the class thinks I have a crush on him when I explicitly don't.
That was annoying. And surprisingly enough, somewhat traumatizing. Everyone believed something I couldn't properly disprove; they believed a lie. I don't even know if I'm capable of full on, proper crushes. All in all, it was a bad experience for me, and probably awkward for that kid. Kids like _David_ were always the scourge of elementary school.
Also straights, whenever people ship f/f or m/m: "why can't people of the same sex just be friends? Why does everything have to be gay? :/ "
THISSS OMG
*toxic izuocha shippers has entered the chat*
(and i ship izuocha)
Not straight, but I will say that I am bothered by those ships when it pertains to real people. I see it happen with traditional celebrities such as Harry Styles and Louis Tomlinson, and I see it happen a lot with male youtubers who make a lot of content together, such as Dan and Phil or Dream and George. While some of them have said in the past that they're fine with shipping, I think it can be way too much. Like when fans are picking apart every little moment between them and calling literally EVERYTHING they do gay. Like close male friendships should be completely normalized and they should be able to express affection without immediately being shipped/accused of being together. It can easily turn into a privacy issue and make the people involved really uncomfortable. No matter the gender, friends should not have to be put through that. But otherwise, I completely agree. Most of the time those ships never become canon, so the str8s should have nothing to complain about. Honestly, the constant shipping of same-gendered characters would happen less if there was more representation in media.
@@thisisyouralterlife3785 I fully understand that the discussion has only been including fictional characters, but considering that the discussion also includes the impact these tropes and characters have on real life people, I thought it was still an important point to make. Just as the "guys and girls can never be just friends" and "friends to lovers" can affect real life relationships between opposite genders, a similar thing can happen to relationships between people of the same gender, though less prevalent. The whole conversation is about the affects these tropes and fictional characters have on real life people. Just like people internalize the idea of "guys and girls can't be friends," I believe a lot of people can get so caught up and used to shipping same-gendered characters that they do the same thing to real life people, sometimes to the point where they see those people as just characters.
I was also mainly responding to the comment (which didn't mention real life people or fictional characters, just same-gendered relationships) rather than the video. I definitely wasn't trying to go against anything said in the video or the comment, just giving my opinion based on my personal experiences. :)
@@veggiegrace13 I feel like every gender should be allowed to hang out with each other platonically, relationships shouldn't really be something that comes to mind unless it has been openly implied that one or both are definitely interested in the other. Idk if this is because I'm aroace but it tires me so much to see people assume that two people are "in love" just because they're nice and all, regardless of what sexuality they are. Yeah gays can have relationships all they want, but what about asexuals? guess we don't exist? or people who are celibate and not looking for relationships? what about those that value friends just as much as relationships?
Also, as someone who's been here to see rabid larry and phan shippers, it's scary to see the borderline fetishization of gays, like if two people just so happen to be friends and get together, them good for them, but you can't speak for every pair of friends, it's their feelings after all, not ours.
I like how you talked about Tall girl
I, as a tall female, can vouch that problem with Dunklecreep isn't that he is short- it's that he is a creep. He is possesive of his friend, sabotages her relationship and doesn't respect her boundries And no one is obligated to date a creep. Why are they even friends
Yeah, none of the love interests were very good.
To be honest, none of the characters were very good.
The premise of the entire movie is that Jodi’s struggle in life if being an attractive blonde girl who’s the same height as the short one on any college volleyball team. Going around acting like she couldn’t drop kick everyone in the school - the only school with one tall person, by the way.
Jack was a creepy little guy who sabotages her relationship, doesn’t respect her boundaries, AND LITERALLY WATCHED HER SLEEP.
Stig was an asshole who played Kinmy and Jodi, was a crappy friend, he likes Guys and Dolls - WHICH IS THE REAL ISSUE THAT NOBODY US TALKING ABOUT!
The only interesting character was Kimmy’s friend, purely because during the scene she was filming Stig punching Dunkleman she was teleporting around the room at different angles.
You’re telling me Kimmy’s friend has superpowers, and we’re supposed to care about some girl who’s just a little bit tall?
@@Briar- I personally thought it was about her own personal fear and mental hurdle. There wasn’t a real fear but she needed to get over her own prejudice.
@@natalyaporter5730 the prejudice doesn’t even make any sense though. It’s not realistic at all. You’re telling me that she’s the only 6”1 person in the whole school? At my school there’s at least one person 6”0 or over in every class
@@Briar- perhaps it was intensified for the story or it was her own perception of it. Some people are sensitive and think people are insulting them when they are not (or not trying to). Maybe it requires a little suspense of belief to enjoy it and it rides on tropes. Maybe she lives in a part of the world full of shorter people who make fun of her for her height. Who knows? Not every place is the same. Where I live there are people of all different kinds of heights and not everyone is over 6'0. Either way, I enjoyed the movie
The clip of him commenting on her “baby genes” is probably the closest I’ve come to throwing up over a scene. What the actual fuck? If a guy said that to me I’d phone the police lol
This is really important to me cause im asexual and aromantic and the idea that I could never be friends with a guy really bothers me
OMG me toooo!!!!!!!!!!! YES!!!!! THIS! THIS COMMENT SO FLIPPING MUCH!!! 💚🤍🖤💜🤍🖤🌈
But no one is really arguing about whether males and females can be amicable without developing romantic feelings. Of course they can. It's not even uncommon.
The initial societal question that was being asking was: could a man and a women with no previous history together and who were reasonably compatible with one another (a.k.a. heterosexual singles that get along with eachother and are both reasonably attractive) form and maintain a close intimate lifelong friendship together without ever developing and acting on their romantic feelings. In reality, the overwhelmingly result of testing is no, and overwhelmingly the failure comes from the male side. There are exceptions in extreme cases, but in the vast vast majority of instances at least one party will develop feelings and will act on them given enough time.
But that finding doesn't necessarily apply to homosexuals, or pairs that don't find eachother attractive for personal reasons, or in a whole host of other atypical circumstances such as your own. The verdict is still out on that.
Same!
It's just asexuality erasure
It's just asexuality erasure
It is always the guy that wants the girl and she does not like him, so in the end the guy is the only one who really gets what they want in the movies the girl always comes around and magically changes her mind.
Forest Lesbians are the weakest Lesbian build ,Savannah And Mountain Lesbian are the best Lesbian build, Sea Lesbians are an okay build too.(this is a joke for people who think I am being serious)
@@mikeoxsmal8022 i will not accept any forest lesbian slander from someone whose name is Mike 😤
@@mikeoxsmal8022 hear me out hear me out:
Jungle lesbians... Best build.
An alternative to this- Karate Kid 3. Daniel asks Jessica if she'd like to go out but she says no even though she's on a break from her former boyfriend. He's totally okay with that, and they go through the entire movie with Daniel and Jessica building an awesome platonic relationship. They help each other out, and honestly it's pretty refreshing to see him accept her choice and just stay friends. Later on she moves away in order to try and get back with her former boyfriend to try and make things work again, and he's happy for her. Interesting that it would come from a karate kid movie of all places lol
(Part of this is because the actor who played daniel was 26 and Jessica was 17 so the director did not want any romantic interest to come across on screen, but it's still nice that they didn't force it into the story)
@forest lesbian yeah I agree. I've mostly met men who insist that women can't be friends and think all men secretely want to fuck their female best friend. I would say it's not even a romantic thing. I just think any kind of closeness to a woman, makes them feel like he might aslo be physically and sometimes romantically involved. Maybe this doesnt mean much coming from someone a little aromantic that I wouldnt even consider my guy friends, who feel like brothers to me.
It's interesting that often when a "relatable girl" is the main character the writers put very little effort into making her love interest interesting or giving them lots of chemistry. Whereas when a "relatable guy" is the main character he usually somehow ends up with a gorgeous Manic Pixie Dream Girl who attaches herself to him from the beginning for no apparent reason (yes, I'm thinking of Garden State.)
This is the reason why I only like gay/lesbian love stories.
Like bridge to terabithia
@@koalakid1884 Yeah, because those two totally end up together
@@koalakid1884 I’m from the middle east where they censor kissing scenes from English movies whenever they are showcased in our TV programs, so if the main guy and the girl had a romantic relationship, I have no idea about that, but.... Didn’t the girl, like, die or something?
Or every fantasy novel ever 😑
Once I came to terms with being Bi I realized how stupid and bullshit the “men and women can’t be friends” thing is. I’ve been attracted to many of my girl and guy friends, but I value their friendship. It isn’t impossible. I’ve had crushes on guy friends when I was younger and it can be hard, but like I didn’t stop my whole life waiting for them to reciprocate. If it’s too painful to be friends with someone because you like them and they don’t like you, don’t be their friend. You deserve better and they deserve a real friend.
as a fellow bisexual i feel this. i’ve had feelings for a female friend once and but i put it then aside. it was painful for a while, but then the attraction passed and now years later i’ve kept a friendship. she’s straight and i hope she meets a nice guy. i’ve dated other people and will continue too
there’s no reason you can’t be mature and move on. like i don’t pine for her, i love and respect her as a friend though. and it’s a much nicer way to be sometimes.
I had a platonic friendship with another girl back in my teen years. We would often joke about being together, she would tell me to "dump my boyfriend" and so on... But that was it. We were friends, we had a little crush going on, we kept it platonic, and I loved every second of it!
@@lucy-wp8ic wholesome
Bisexual here. Yes to everything you just said! I have had crushes on friends but I don’t say they’re in the “friendzone” because I do value their friendship more than anything else. If the whole “men and women can’t be friends” trope was true, then that means no bisexuals could have friends?? Anyway thank you because I couldn’t have said it better myself. I agree 100% 💯💯💯
My partner was attracted to me when we were good friends and I was actually dating one of his best friends at the time. He was able to handle that, and then I realized that he was a better partner, and I could still stay friends with the other guy as we got along well, just not romantically.
What bothers me about the “scar on that beautiful torso” line is that it implies that people have a choice if they have a c section. My sister had a micro premie baby (under 2lbs) and she had to have an emergency c section. Also it implies the scar from giving birth makes her ugly and the comment is super creepy.
I cringed so hard watching that scene in this video
Lol my mom had to c-section me and my siblings it’s not like she chose to do any of it
Just talking about a person's body that way is creepy, let alone talking about a person's body that way TO THEM.
This is exactly what I was thinking... Plus the scar isn't anywhere near the "torso"??
I mean i think sometimes you can chose? I was actually a late baby and my mother did choose to get a c section because it was easier for her. But yeah that's just super weird... maybe don't talk about something that's largely very traumatic like that
Usually the same guys say that "men and women can't be friends" and "let bros/gals be bros/gals" when talking about same-sex relationships. Which is the most ironic thing I've heard.
OH MY GOD THIS BOTHERS ME SO MUCH
**this.**
Heteronormativity irritates me so much
You mean platonic or romantic same sex relationships?
@@keld101 stop. Begone incel.
@@galaxyocicat5660 Wait what? Aren’t they just asking a question?
The incels and nice guys in the comment section have really proved that this trope is harmful and fuel for their excuses to remain unnecessarily miserable. They would rather blame a whole group of people for their personal issues with relationships and rejection then get it sorted out in therapy.
I was not prepared to see that shit in this comment section, and I already miss that ignorance.
For real. I came down here for the fun cow jokes.
@@riversrhodell2359 same
I was looking for them I didn’t know there were those comments 0.O
People are blaming all of society and masculinity itself though.
I feel like this trope kinda adds to how men often see a friendship with a woman as some sort of pre-stage to dating. I've had a guy I was friends with for two years make a move on me, then when I rejected him say he "didn't want to invest in a friendship that wasn't going anywhere".
Like the expectation of it "going somewhere" is one a lot of men I've met have had, even when I have clearly communicated my intentions.
That’s so gross. Like imagine if you ask a straight guy why he bothers having male friends if it isn’t “going anywhere” why does it have to go somewhere? Just say you don’t treat women equally- it would be much more honest of them.
@@katyfive1 exact
@@katyfive1 you act as if womena are all honest about their intentions with men all of the time. there's plenty of women who pretend to be friends and want more. the only difference is men are expected to initiate. if that was his intention all along , its kind of a little bit disingenuous but what about women who pretend to like a guy in order to get status or money, material advantages?
@@johnascialpi5247 i don't pretend to be friends with anybody. I might find someone attractive but I would never hang around them solely because I'm waiting for my "chance"
@@KD-ou2np what if you developed feelings, etc. there's a difference between waiting and or "would' you if given the chance. I get that you wouldn't but there are women who do this alot too in my experience. Or say "lets be friends" to guys they find attractive. etc.
The shirt
The cow tattoo
The fire socks
A style icon
fashion is over because she has the ultimate look
What about the hairstyle
@@OklamaJr right? don’t forget about the mullet
Cow ring and nail polish 💅 absolutely in love
@@yuliyaklochko9280 HOW DID I MISS THE COW RINGS
Never trust someone who says "friendzone" unironically
True!
@@WrathofFenrir99 I think this should be the definition of friendzone however that’s not how most ppl have been mostly using it.
Because women rarely get friendzoned, privilege is invisible to those who have it. Why should us men be friends with someone and get nothing back, what a waste of time.
@@reinhartgregory So what do men get in return by being friends with other men?
@@reinhartgregory Ok so u never get anything out of being friends with people so why do u even have friends?
It's not even just in media. A guy and a girl can't have a normal friendship without people thinking they're dating or they like each other. I have a guy friend and we get called a relationship by people we don't even know.
same thing here and it gets annoying 😫. Im literally a lesbian and he’s gay , smfh 🤦
I know it's gets so old and annoying I swear:/
I remember in high school I was walking and talking with a boy and another kid came up behind us and said “are you guys dating?” Lol
Yeah I'm lesbian and we had a worker who came to the house. People in my neighborhood asked if I was bringing a boy over to the house and I physically cringed
All my friends are men but none think we are hanging. Most are fighters like me
Any man who says men and women can't be friends basically says "I see every (attractive) woman as a sex object and only try to befriend them to have a relationship/sex with them". Run. Run as fast as you can when you meet someone like that
Wise lesson.
Believe me @imnaelywa5113, I will run faster than I've ever ran in my life!
It all makes sense now…
My dad 💀
The whole crate thing is so gross. Man was deadass carrying around a milk crate since he met this girl on the off chance she would ever get with him. That’s gross in a way that’s hard to explain, but it makes my skin crawl. (It’s in stalker territory at least.)
It’s really messed up
even when I was younger it always bothered me when the main guy character had to have a forced romance with the only conventionally attractive female character in every children's movie
It always annoyed me because like.. couldnt they just be friends? why did they have to get together??? its why i dont rlly watch movies bc theres a 75% chance ill see a forced romantic relationship and get confused, uncomfy, and the movie ruined for me?
Its like y'all never watched Hunchback of Notre Dame.
@@bluesunday2585 damn that is a good movie, I'm so glad they didn't make a sequel revolved around him getting a girlfriend- oh
@@Duckyletsplay sequels to disney movies just don't exist, no no
@@materla4102 Except for Cinderella: a Twist in Time. That sequel not only exists but it is easily one of the best Cinderella stories.
Fine, I'll give that one to The kissing Booth
The guy is a TERRIBLE friend, but at least they are just friends
Yay?
he really is. when he gets angry because she applies to more than one college 🥴
Thats the only good thing about those movies
Lucifer has a lot of male and female platonic relationships. Even Lucifer and Linda, who had a casual sex relationship at first , never develope a romantic relationship, and once they cut off the sex part, their friendship remains entirely platonic and becomes very strong.
@Green Carrot Ok
@Green Carrot if that's a joke it's hillarious. if not...um
"I’ve become skeptical of the unwritten rule that just because a boy and girl appear in the same feature, a romance must ensue. Rather, I want to portray a slightly different relationship, one where the two mutually inspire each other to live. ~ Hayao Miyazaki"
I love this quote, no wonder the romances on his movies are great, they seem to genuinely make the other better
Which movie was he talking about?
Ghibli movies are top-tier!! I think a lot of his movies do this really well. I can't really find the perfect example, but I know for a fact that hardly ever is a romantic relationship the main goal of the movie.
This gets SO annoying sometimes. Like, they don't even foreshadow it. The movie just ends with them kissing even if they don't like each other, barely know each other, or even have plans to have a relationship. Regardless of anything, that's just bad storytelling.
@@debrachambers1304Secret World of Arietti might be a good example :)
I have a childhood guy best friend and he's like a brother to me. However, all of my friends and even my own mother are saying we should get together and it's just super irritating because why can't we just be friends without any romantic feelings. Is it really so impossible for some people to think a guy and girl can have a platonic relationship?
I have a friend (girl) who I've known since she was 3, and multiple people have asked if I want to date her younger brother who I'm also friends with. My response is typically eweweeewewewewew.
I knew him since he was a literal baby, he's my brother in every way but blood.
@@normalgamergal Are you friends with him?
Yeah, there's typically 2 reasons friends and family do that. Either he's blatantly pining for you and everyone around you is just desperately wanting you to notice so he doesn't continue to make a fool out of himself trying, or he's so out of your league that they think this may be a once in a lifetime chance for you to capture such a great person.
Depending on your age it may or may not be a wise choice to explicitly ask your friends if they think your childhood friend is into you.
@@keld101 "he's my brother in every way but blood." I suppose it depends on your definition of friend. I'd consider him a friend as well. If you don't count that, about half of my friends are men (even a couple of exes in there) and we're not romantically involved at all (anymore for the exes, of course 😆)
@@keld101 why would it matter when they just want to stay friends?
So men don't have any healthy relationships? I'm just wondering because if men and women can't be friends and men don't really talk and share emotions with their Bros, this means they aren't doing okay. Friendship is a very important part of life and crucial to your emotional development. Friends are great.
Yo I say this all the time! I wonder if men just aren’t used to having intimate, deep connections and just assume their attachments to their women friends is romantic.
Us "bros" talk about the same personal stuff you girls do. It's just we only talk about it one on one. Guys who don't open up to a friend usually are constantly dating and use the girlfriend as an emotional outlet. We also drink alot. That helps.
@@keld101 as long as they talk that's the important thing to me at least. That they have meaningful support, it's nice to have somebody on your side even if it's one person.
@@ChrisBrooks34 I second that!
Men are conditioned to seek emotional support exclusively from their romantic partners... This also adds to the fact that they may take a woman's simple friendship the wrong way and seek a partner dynamic instead.
it's so bizarre to me when I hear other guys say that men and women can't be friends, bc, like, I'm bi and somehow I do in fact have platonic friends. My best friend in college was a girl who started talking to me because she had a crush on me, but we both realized we'd make a terrible couple so, even though we both found each other attractive, we just stayed friends instead, it literally does not have to be that complicated
Yeah same, I'm bi and I'm friends with ppl I find attractive without wanting to date them.
Same! My closest friends are women and the creepy comments from family or acquaintances are more than annoying
oh you just know these are the same kinds of people who don't believe in sexuality
It's not even just men believing that "men and women can't just be friends" bs. My best friend during college was a girl and my girlfriend at the time couldn't wrap her head around it; she'd fight me about it almost every single time she saw us together, despite there almost always being a third, male, friend around. Hearing a woman claim I was "emotionally cheating" because I confided in a female friend was mindboggling, even more so when most secrets shared with her would also be shared with my best male friend.
I get being worried about someone cheating on you, but calling being close to a friend "emotional cheating"? what even. your situation sounds exhausting.
@@pinxelated2799 It's such a deep level of insecurity, it makes me suspicious and i'm glad we already know they're not together anymore.
@@pinxelated2799 In fairness, emotional affairs are a thing.
@@ms.aelanwyr.ilaicos what , like , no?
This reminds of a flipped situation in college.
We had a friend group consisting of four, half and half. I was close friends with guy1, guy1 was close friends with guy2 and guy2 was close friends with girl.
When me and guy2 had some private talks, we hit it off and decided to try dating. The girl was then VERY punctual about us keeping EVERYTHING like it was before.
We still had to sit like so; me + guy1 and girl + guy2 in class, we didn't talk in class before we started dating, so it should continue like that, lest we ruin our relationship ofc.
Naturally, that is some major bs, the relationships you form with people are fluid in nature. The best thing you can do is establish some boundaries.
Her boundaries apparently consisted of me and guy2, now fiancé, totally ignoring eachother at campus.
That didn't boat with us well lol
So long story short, she faded from our friend group, breaking off her friendship with guy2 and we're still friends with guy1, cuz why wouldn't we be.
This just goes to show that sometimes it's more about maintaining control than a good relationship for certain people in our lives, and that truly sucks.
Hope your situation got better❤
I just inherently hate this trope because a close friend of mine "accidentally" fell in love with me and then said we couldn't be friends because he had a girlfriend.
Omg i- That's so weird.
Yeah, well, that says more about him than it does about you.
Yup, that's called escaping the friend zone. Beats simping. But the accidental part is BS. He probably just didn't want to admit how long he was stuck in the friend zone for.
@@keld101 The friendzone isn't real, you're just entitled. Sincerely, a guy.
I actually feel like that was the responsible thing for him to do. If he knew he'd end up emotionally cheating on his gf, even unreciprocated, with you, then he's protecting the relationship that's he's invested in right now: with his gf. Look, some people can handle being attracted to their friends without it becoming a big deal, other people can't and have to come up with other solutions🤷🏾♀️
How is it that every single video of yours is a masterpiece??
- Oh, right. Because they're all written and produced by a cow.
How could I forget
Exactly!
My mother was a cow, I can attest to their positive qualities
I bet she's lying. I bet it's a army of cows!
“friendships can be just as, or even more fulfilling” i completely agree. i started dating a guy in seventh grade and we dated for nearly four years before i came out as a lesbian. he’s bi and actually brought me into the lgbtq community and helped me discover who i was. we’ve been best friends since, about 5 more years, and they are the best friend i’ve ever had. we are completely in sync when it comes to most things and i can confidently say he is my soulmate and i love them to death. we even have a lavender marriage pact for if we’re not married/in a long-term relationship by a certain age. in fact, i think i’m going to text him to remind him how important he is to me
aww thats amazing !
In my experience they're more fulfilling
im aroace and this sounds like goals to me
wow, I'm so happy for you!
@@qp4590 as an aro, I completely relate
this whole “all men want to sleep with any women at any given time, which is why men and women can’t just ‘be friends’” thing is so funny to me because in senior year I was the one who had a crush on a guy in my class but it fizzled out when it was obvious he was not interested in me AT ALL, and after we graduated we became closer friends. Nowadays I don’t have any romantic feelings towards him but still love him as a friend. Hell, I’m seeing him next week for my birthday. I’ve literally lived the same thing (some) men describe “can’t be done”
As someone older, one of the weird things about this friendzone concept becoming an internet meme is seeing it turn increasingly gendered. Men have come to view it as an act itentionally and cruelly done against them by women; on the other, women have come to view it as an accusation they have to defend or deny. The lines weren't this defined pre-internet. Women have always gotten 'friendzoned', too. This core idea, you like someone romatically but they don't reciprocate and the tension that creates, that's not intrisically a gendered experience. Man, woman, NB, straight, and (perhaps especially) gay, that can happen to anyone sociable. The real issue is whether you resolve that tension and move on in a healthy way as you did with your friend, or immaturely brood on it for years and years as incel-types do.
Dude same. I grew with this notions as well that men and woman can't be friends. Idk why. But I understand why it's an unhealthy idea.
@@theworldlistener1969I love how you acknowledge that the “friendzone” is all inclusive. It reminds me of this one episode of Sex Education where these two girls who were best friends realized that they were both gay and became a couple. I loved that at the end they learned that just because they’re both best friends and gay doesn’t mean that they have to be a couple, and they’re happier being best friends. I can’t imagine how many friendships were ruined by this pressure that if you’re attracted to a particular sex that you have to want to date them. And I wish more shows acknowledged the pressure for queer people too
It also shames men who don't want sex or sex with that particular woman. That line is just peculiar and I always thought so.
I think is bc of this trope and the idea that men and women cant be friends, that most married couple (mostly 40 and above), don't have friends of the opposite gender, and it almost seems weird to some people, and if they do, sometimes is met with insinuations of an infidelity. Like im 100% sure that most of our parents don't have friends of the opposite sex.
Most parents don't have friends, period. Not because of tropes but because all your time and money goes into taking care of your kids and maintaining your marriage. It's work, the type you don't get to clock-out from.
Plus, spouses tend to not want their spouse to spend time with the opposite sex because sooner or later when the marriage is on the rocks somebody is going to screw up. And that's not something you can recover from. So you keep a short leash and make sure your spouse's friends aren't people they'd be tempted by.
@@keld101 If you're having trust issues so bad that you cannot trust your partner to not cheat on you the second they have a friend from the opposite sex, it's better to break up or have a divorce. The "keeping a short leash" sounds very toxic and controlling.
Tara's video really proved why this trope is bad, because people like you are incapable of accepting that people from the opposite sex can be friends. You keep claiming in other comments that you know friendship is possible yet you're still projecting that incel poor me nice guy attitude unto other commenters experiences.
@@galaxyocicat5660 I've noticed this about him too - although I think "Most parents don't have friends" may have finally done my head in. What a load of bs. This is not even remotely borne out by ANY parent I have known - including me and my other parent mates. How can someone be so lacking in the powers of simple observation?
Lol what do you mean our parents don't have friends of the opposite sex? Yes they do. And also are we just not counting forming friendships with our friend's partners? People think of male/female friendships in one or two scenarios, when reality presents us with 50. Which is why these conversations are utterly ridiculous.
@@dontbefatuousjeffrey2494 it is true tho, parents don't have friends
beginning to think Tara is actually the cow, but hear me out...the cow is so powerful that she has a human form called Tara and there is a multiverse of different forms of the cow???
I'm buying it
Agreed
I think you're on to something
I was actually starting to think the cow is tara's partner??
@@CreeketsCreek ooh! I like that theory! you never know!!
The tall girl kissing scene though, oh my god. Oh my god. I'm honestly so embarrassed for the person who wrote that.
Why cant u carry a backpack
I knew this moment would come 😏
Shut up >:(
Sweet and goofy. Welcome to teenage simping. But it's cute.
@@keld101 Not cute that she ended up with a terrible guy though.
@@keld101 not cute at all
@@keld101 That is not sweet, and it is not cute; it is creepy.
Perfect demonstration of why the childhood best friend trope is unrealistic: Hermoine and Ron's actors spoke about how gross they felt with the kiss scene because they had grown up together and felt like siblings🙃
I heard that Rupert had to leave the set when they filmed Hermione and Harry kissing because he was laughing too much at how nonsensical it was to see his two friends kissing
I wouldn't say it's wholly unrealistic. The thing is, they'd always seen each other as basically siblings, so it would be difficult to change that. But there are plenty of friends who had tiny crushes on each other as kids, or who developed such crushes when puberty came, that could become very happy couples.
Omg righttttt
well it's not that unrealistic, the crush could've started from childhood. it just didn't in this case…i think. i don't remember enough about harry potter but i'm probably right.
However, Emma Watson said she had no problem kissing Daniel.
I got an ad for a new HBO max show on this. it was like this “three nice guys and 3 fboys we just have to figure out who the f is who“ and I can’t decide whether to laugh or cry
OMG I GOT A HEART
Both. Sounds funnily foul.
I got that one too
Do you remember what the show was called?
@@jesscarter2427 I'm gonna guess it's the "FBoy Island" one?
One Piece is my favourite example of platonic relationships, the writer himself even said the crew will never have romantic relationships among each other
Yes! My thoughts exactly. I always loved this fact about One Piece that it displays many different kinds of bonds people can have other than romantic. It's weird to me how people tend to think of romantic relationships as superior to others, because when I think of One Piece, to me, the idea of love among the straw hats would ruin and lessen the amazing friendships they all have.
Yeah
Aaay one piece!
Such a famous example. That's very good to hear.
Finally! A one piece fan!!!
"It's called self control" defines my situation. I have the biggest crush on my best friend. She's beautiful, smart, funny and caring. But she doesn't like me back. We had a sleepover a few weeks ago and slept in the same bed. I didn't do anything because she wouldn't have wanted to. I slept and that was it. It's really not that hard.
Keep hurting yourself
@@halavari69 I'm sorry, what?
@@sammjaisais7135
I think they just don’t know how to spell “Dude, you’re awesome” and like I get it, awesome can be a pretty tough word and there’s two too many yours if you ask me
same
It does feel like you have to leave your balls at home sometimes though. Like you're her friend, but never someone attractive to her. You have no choice but to be her friend.
I read this line from a fanfic: "Even if he called it off. You were never just friends. Friends aren’t /just/ anything." It really changed my outlook on friendships with someone you liked. Even if you weren't dating, that's not a downgrade. You are just as valuable to them as they are to you.
as someone on the aroace spectrum, the whole “more than friends” thing is so weird to me. what makes relationships so much more than friendships? why do people spend significantly more time with their romantic partners than their friends? the whole thing is weird to me
@@yorak6793 the whole "more than friends" thing is so internalized in me that i still struggle and have to constantly remind myself that romance is not the end goal. i agree with you, it's definitely weird
@@yorak6793 I’d say it’s just something you won’t be able to truly ever understand because you don’t experience it. Such is life, it be like that sometimes.
@@jennamallow mm but i’m not entirely sure that’s true. at times in my life i’ve felt compelled to pass time with a certain person more than any others. is that what makes it romantic? or is romance the butterfly feeling i felt as a kid one time (i haven’t since)? maybe it’s more that i platonically fall in love with people so it confuses me. i guess i’ll probably never be able to understand the less murky romance = all consuming thing you mention though lol. or perhaps we’ve been trained that that’s the only form of romance
@@yorak6793 I’d say romance is a mix of wanting to spend more time with that person and those butterflies/other things people tend to mention when talking about having a crush, but it also depends on their love language. But yea there are so many different types of love so it makes sense that people can get confused sometimes. I personally have mistaken platonic fondness for having a crush on someone, when I actually didn’t lol. Having a romantic crush on someone is definitely more than just wanting to be around them more than others tho imo, because I feel that way about my best friend or other close friends sometimes and ik I wouldn’t date them
Some of these "romantic" scenes are just so painful to watch it physically hurts
here for the "new girl" praise 🙌🏻
(also worth noting that it's created/written and (mainly) produced by women)
hey Savannah. hi
I just finished watching new girl. I think it was a fun show. I was just disappointed that one character voted republican and seemed to be against abortion. I guess they did it so conservatives wouldn't stop watching
@@Niniminns which character was that? I'm only only season 2
@@grace3864 Schmidt
@@Niniminns I didn't really like him anyway so that's a relief
Because I remembered about Stranger Things quite recently, I wanna say Robin and Steve are a great platonic guy & gal duo. Though Steve admitted that he was crushing on her at some point, he dropped any romantic inclination towards her the moment she came out to him and even so their dynamic hasn't changed basically at all. Continued being besties just as before. Love that!!
YESS I LOVE THEIR DYNAMIC
True but then it kinda enforces the idea that if she was straight...they’d get together. Like how the show pairs off both Eleven and Max despite them being even younger
Great scene!
@@katyfive1 not a bad point. We can’t know for sure if they would’ve ended up together if Robin was straight, but still
Would he stayed friends with her though, if she was straight but just not into him?
Well, I'll talk about my own experience, me and 2 other girls have been friends with a guy for more than 3 years .. and none of us want to have sex with him nor does he want to have sex with us ... It's like he's a brother to me I just can't do it.
I've also been friends with attractive guys for years and never had the unstoppable urge to *explode* with them because ✨ *Self-control* ✨
Or at least that’s what he says
I'll just say this, I think this whole debate has gotten more and more shallow over the past several decades. The initial societal question that was being asking was: could a man and a women with no previous history together and who were reasonably compatible with one another (a.k.a. heterosexual singles that get along with eachother and are both reasonably attractive) form and maintain a close intimate lifelong friendship together without ever developing and acting on their romantic feelings. In reality, the overwhelmingly result of testing is no, and overwhelmingly the failure comes from the male side. There are exceptions in extreme cases, but in the vast vast majority of instances at least one party will develop feelings and will act on them given enough time.
Why is this the reality we live in? Why can't people just keep it in their pants and be happy with the great things they already have? I don't know.
Can men and women get along, be friends, and even develop an intimate platonic relationship? Of course! That's not even that uncommon. But there are almost always other factors involved like having a failed romantic past together, or psychological trauma that affects romantic drive, or one party is already romantically occupied and satiated, or the guy just doesn't personally find the female attractive for whatever reason, etc.
What bothers me about this is how unfathomably blind women can be to this even when, as a guy, it can appear so blatantly obvious from an onlookers perspective that the "guy friend" wants to pursue a romantic relationship. And even after being explicitly confronted about it by the "guy friend" women will insist that it was just a fluke and none of her other guy friends wouldever do that, rinse and repeat. From a man's perspective this is just baffling, but eventually you just learn to accept it and move on. Men don't understand women. Women don't understand men. Life goes on.
@@keld101 I knew it from the previous weird comments. A nice guy (or incel) has infiltrated the comment section. You just needed time to take the mask off.
It funny because you people are the ones viewing these issues in very shallow ways, you're projecting this outdated dichotomy of men and women and how they're like aliens to each other when in reality we are much more diverse than that and are capable of relating to each other contrary to what you think. It's dumb to be accusing women of being "blind" or stupid for "not understanding" men as if women never experienced being friendzoned or developing romantic feelings for their best friends, or even rejection when they tried to pursue it.
Stop projecting your personal issues unto a whole group of people. This is not a women's or men's issue, it's a you issue.
@@keld101 you've copy pasted the same damn thing so many times oof chill stop embarrassing yourself
@@keld101 uhhhh okay? What you said doesn’t change anyone’s behaviour at all. Women will continue being friends with men even if the men secretly like them. Who cares
I just want to be in everyone's friend zone.
I'll friendzone you, bro
amen to that
Amen.
Same. XD
I'll friendzone you if you friendzone me
The best friends to lovers trope was Jesus and Judas. Wait-
Friends to lovers to enemies
The beloved disciple 👀
@@chloetzima146 best friends to lovers to enemies to lovers
@@alicelee7502 Disciple with benefits
@@Vampire_Nightshade - DEAAAAAAAD AF!!!!
18:40 As an ace, this part just gets to me. I guess it's because I am a girl, but people I know just consider it so childish every time I say my end goal is to live a life where I can have lots of meaningful friendships and adopt a kid.
Holy crap, the fact that anyone would consider it selfish that you want to devote your life to friends and ADOPT A KID WHO NEEDS A FAMILY… I- 🤯 Screw whoever said that, you are fucking amazing 💙 You are valid as you are, friend. 👏
@@v_is_geeking And you are very kind!
so cool that we have the same idea of a happy life :)
i really want to adopt a child with a platonic partner **
@@slowmoth More power to you! Hopefully, we can make it work out!
Same mate. Also Ace and just want a really close friendship and maybe adopt a kid in future. But not completely decided on that front.
The Disney film "Lemonade Mouth" is one the few movies that I have seen that show us a platonic love interest. It's really nice the way they teach that sometimes we don't end with the person that we like and we have to move on.
Was this Mo and what's his face? I completely forget, because I haven't seen he movie in a while.
Oh no, you didn't see the extended scene where Charlie says he's gonna keep chasing after Mo, despite her boyfriend being right next to her.
@@IceWeiss8 To be fair, a scene that changes the text so dramatically was probably deleted for a reason.
I think one could be Pacific Rim too, the first film. Where the girl and they guy didn't kiss or get together
"Platonic"? I didn't really see it that way, but ok. I hated that movie.
This is the ONLY comment on UA-cam that’s written by a sloth.
think again
@@conceitedsloth9882 HAHAHAHHAHA 🦥
@@conceitedsloth9882 and the best yt comment ever award goes to
As a bisexual....I obviously can not have friends with men or women that’s why all of my friends are genderless aliens 👽
Based
No, it just means you're always the one who ruins the friendship.
@@keld101 Bro what is wrong with you you're commenting under every comment lmaooo. Just accept that some people aren't shitty and can see women as people, not just potential romantic partners.
@@Nyxthebat04 This particular community of subscribers tends to be conflict avoidant so I have to cast a lot of fairly inflammatory hooks to get people to be willing to debate. It's not a very critically minded audience either but I typically find one or two people who actually know their stuff well enough to stand their ground and put up solid arguments. You can learn a lot fairly quickly on niche controversies via this method.
Unfortunately I also get a lot gullible morons like you who have nothing to add responding with nothing but ad hominems.
In particular thread I'm pointing out how bi's tend to be eccentric self-distructice pleasure seekers. Hopefully someone will make some good counter I didn't think of. It's always fun to be stumped.
@@keld101
You seem like you have some issues. I mean, we all do, but you're taking them out on other people. Some bi guy disagrees with you in a comments section and then doesn't reply. That means that bi guys are self destructive pleasure seekers and Tara's audience are avoidant morons! Ever think that you're the problem, and that people might not reply to you because their lives don't rely on UA-cam comment sections?
The friendzone is not just when a person likes a friend, and the other doesn't like them. It's a concept where a man feels entitled to a woman's affection, when the guy isn't really a true friend to the woman, but is just waiting for a fuck.
I truly hope you find some worthy opponents by dishing out your hot takes, because you're truly an intellectual.
I'm aromantic lol, so after hearing "He's so nice, why don't you give him a chance?" Even after explaining my feelings nearly everyday, this topic makes my blood boil lol. It is all about just respecting how someone feels. If they aren't comfortable with a relationship, don't pressure them, if you can't get over that you shouldn't be friends with them in the first place.
like Bumblestripe from Warriors. "He likes you, you should give him a chance." No.
@@LibraryofAcousticMagic3240 homeboy asked Dovewing out during a funeral brah 😭
I remember when I was a kid reading YA books it would always annoy me that the guys and girls NEVER stayed friends. I read so much back then and I don't remember it ever happening. And with me probably bring aromantic and asexual, it made me feel weird that romantic and sexual relationships were SO emphasized in media
im also aroace and seeing them just.. have no men and women just say friends made me feel just uncomfy?? bc why couldnt they just stay friends?? why did they have to get together?? Plus the way its like "oh its so bad to be single you'll be ALONE for the rest of your life and NO ONE will LOVE YOU and you will have NO ONE to LOVE." on blast 25/8 in most media i see is literal torture. can i pls just see a story where ppl can just *stay friends* ???
It irked me that you could always tell who would be the love interest the moment they appeared on page.
@@peiithos That has always bothered me, especially in adventure/fantasy YA. I feel like years of surviving deadly adventures is a fundamentally different relationship environment than what you would want for a romantic or married life. It feels like in a lot of the cases that the characters should end up like pseudo-siblings than romantic partners.
Saaaame, which is possibly why Shang Chi made me so happy
guyssss read the Stormlight Archives, that series has SO MANY different kinds of relationships in them, and none of the platonic ones are downplayed as lesser than the romantic ones!
Also a big thing that annoys with these sorts of friendships is that if it is present one of them has to be put into the whole “gay best friend” role which is a whole other situation on its own 💀
Usually the gay friend is just meant to be a foil for the girl and writers don't want to accidentally be forced by fans into a awkward love triangle. Could just as well be a brother or teacher or personified conscious.
and gay best friend personality’s are = sassy & gay
no exceptions
I'm so glad you talked about this!! Every time I watch media with opposing gendered-characters I preemptively prepare myself for a forced romance arc because it's used so often it's almost a crutch. With my time at film school I had to watch way too many short films that used this trope so much you would've guessed it was a requirement of the class
"opposing gendered-characters"?
Let me guess, you're more of a action movie type of filmogropher.
@@keld101 sorry but what does saying "opposing gendered-characters" have to do with being a more "action movie type of filmographer"?
I was so pleasantly surprised by the ending of Pacific Rim when the male and female lead don't kiss in the finally. Like I thought they were gonna do that weird thing where CPR turns into kissing, but the just laughed and hugged. Fills me with joy.
Edit: Finale? Final? The end of the movie. IDK
*cough* loki *cough*
@@sftscars Who else would think of the genders as "opposing"? It's a uniquely dramatic view of the world. As if we're on the verge of a battle royal. Sure there's sometimes conflict but on the whole we're usually on the same team.
When marriage or a romantic relationship is seen as the end goal, once they achieve it, the relationship tends to stagnate because they don't see a goal beyond it.
THIS!
Yep lol
This. And also the honestly sad fact friendship is only seen as a stepping stone to romance when it should be _part_ of it.. How are two people going to be good partners if they can't even be good friends?
Lmao do you have any examples of this or did you want to sound profound
Me (trans woman) going to Pride with my best friend (cis man): just having fun
Random woman: "Oh, are you two dating?"
Me, confused, looking at my lesbian flag: "What?"
LMAO 😭 i remembered a video of lil nas x with a girl on tiktok and ppl literally asking if they were dating
male friend: constantly bothers female protagonist, who has always turned him down
female protagonist: experiences emotion for the first time
male friend: :)
female protagonist: yes, YOU, ALL ALONG, I realize now I was waiting for YOU to help me out of this
"men and women can't be friends"
me and all the other lesbians: am I a joke to you?
the ace/aro ppl in the back: 🕴🏻🧍🏽♀️
@@ceciliatoledo837 ace/aro people are honestly so ignored that im honestly impressed. The only rep I know of y'all is that guy from bojak horseman
Me and other bisexuals: Who are we supposed to be friends with...?
us pansexuals: You have friends?
Unfortunately men who think this also probably think that lesbians fantasise about a man coming in and joining them like they do in the porn they watch 🙄🙄
I've made a pledge to never use "just friends" in conversation talking about someone because it's just so frustrating to see friendship devalued like that. I'm late to this video but ahhh it was great!
I've always had a problem with that phrase, for the same reason! Sounds so diminutive. O.O I've always defaulted to "Oh no, we're not 'like that,'" because it's always felt a bit better to me.
I feel the same way
Fr, like what? are you saying friendship isn't something important? That it's not a big deal or it isn't valuable? I mean having friends is great wdym
The trip to get the tattoo was absolutely lovely, dear! I'm back from getting the shot, and I'm ready to relax.
I hope all of you little subscriptions have a wonderful day!
You’re the best Editing Cow! 🐄 🐮
Lovely to see you in the comments!
hey bestie thanks for making a great effort into these videos!
This trope seems to affect guys more strongly in real life, cause I’m getting real tired of trying to make friends with men while they just want something romantic out of it
Just can’t bring myself to even put effort in getting to know them, always seems like they have second intentions
I feel you! I struggle with developing/keeping friendships with men because most of the times when I liked talking to a boy or man, they seemed to develop a crush on me and started making advances. Talking to and meeting up on a regular basis with a man I'm not attracted to often makes me uncomfortable and anxious >.<
(They were mostly conventionally unattractive men because I'm incredibly shy around men I or others find attractive, so they might not have been used to getting any neutral/positive attention from girls/women but I don't know..)
Same. Guess I'll just give up on trying to Interact with men unless it's absolutely necessary.
@@EleiyaUmei Girl, exact type of situation for me
These conventionally unattractive men see kindness or mere politeness as attraction or interest, I think this is one of the ways in which the patriarchal society affects them, they can’t fathom why someone would be nice without second intentions, for them people are only nice because they find you attractive
@@Chocolatindo I don’t like to be like this, but sometimes treating them coldly is the best thing you can do
Don’t give them a chance to approach and push their feelings onto you
@@maluzimmermann Can't say if it's due to the patriarchal society but at least because of the plethora of stories (mostly movies and TV series) that portray and feed into this sort of friends-to-lovers-(male-het)fantasy.
The male friends there are also often childish, mean etc. and don't need to improve much to get the female love interest to fall in love with them. And I feel like that's one of the reasons a lot of men don't treat women as well and as respectfully as they should..
as an aroace i have this question so much. more platonic relationships please!
not ace but hi fellow aro nice to see you! Yes, more platonic to show how special and wonderful close friendships can be
as an aroace who loves the romance genre, media portrayals of the inevitability of relationships in what seemed like an otherwise normal friendship really screwed with me when I was younger. I thought if a friendship wasn't a relationship i would end up alone and unloved once they found their "real" partner, but at the same time I vehemently denied any relationships offered towards me out of friendships because I didn't know how to feel this particular kind of love they had. It led to a lot of confusion, burned bridges and self hatred that really could've been avoided with a simple, well-informed talk about relationships and friendships from literally anyone.
one GREAT fictional platonic friendship that never crossed that line, not even in an are-they-about-to... way like harry and hermione, is lucas and haley from one tree hill
The worst variation of this trope is the "men and women can't work together without getting together" trope. It's such an ancient sexist idea but is still SO prevalent that I'm genuinely uncomfortable thinking about how it could be contributing to workplace harassment.
Omg, I'd love to see a video on this topic.
Truly. Especially because I have a firm rule that I don't date any colleagues. It's bad enough to deal with a grueling work load. I would hate to bring relationship drama to that same space.
this trope makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about it
It's probably not ancient, it's probably just as old as the industrial revolutions strengthening patriarchy removing casual relationships from peoples lives and turning us towards individualism, and yeah I completely agree
they also use the "human nature" argument that "men have a higher sex drive" and are "programmed" to feel attracted to women
Men denying a possibility of platonic opposite sex friendship even though A LOT of women have an experience in being friends with men and say that it is possible, just shows that men once again dismiss women's opinions. Fellas, if most women say that opposite sex friendship is something they had/have then... Maybe that's true? What you, men, believe is not always the truth or the "law".
Do you think it might be possible that the men in the friendships you’ve described secretly want more out of the friendship? And do you also think it’s possible that the women who’ve described these friendships have no actual idea what their guy friends are thinking? And while we’re at it, I’d also humbly like you to consider the possibility that some women also will have crushes on men that aren’t into them; men that may even friendzone them to avoid being seen as a dick. Truth is, friendships between men and women aren’t impossible, but they’re inherently more challenging for obvious reasons. So pretending that they’re exactly the same as platonic same sex relationships with no possibility for difficulty or awkwardness is just silly. If attraction is present, unrequited or not, it imbalances the friend dynamic and makes it difficult for both sides to see just friendship as an appealing option.
@@jeremyterkelsen2518 I have many platonic male friends. I also married one of my male friends.
Out of my platonic male friends, one is gay, one is a straight man who is happily married to the love of his life, and who knows that I am married to the love of my life, and several are single but understand that I am never going to break up with my partner for them.
Is it possible some of them find me attractive and want to sleep with me? Sure. Does that mean they would try anything and ruin the friendship or their existing relationship? No.
Also just because two people who would never cross a boundary with each other find each other attractive doesn't make their friendship less platonic. The aforementioned friend married to his soulmate is hot. I can tell he thinks I'm attractive. But neither of us has ever said anything nor would we because we love our spouses MORE than we are attracted to each other. It's like the concept of self control is beyond some of y'all. Not every attraction is something that I even want to act on. But just because I'm married and faithful doesn't mean I'm blind lol.
UGH THIS. I had a conversation, which turned into an argument a couple years ago with a man under Steve Harvey’s god awful video saying men and women can’t be friends, (basically saying because straight men are all predators) and I said that I’ve been friends with a guy for years and he has a fiancé and I get along with her too. And he just was interrogating me and telling me to ask him if he would ever sleep with me and I just……
@@WrathofFenrir99 They don’t have to befriend others, if they don’t want to.
@@WrathofFenrir99 if being friends with ANY women makes them a nice guy, doesn't that mean they only see women as potential sex partners rather than.. i don't know, people? that's not a good sign.
i started watching criminal minds recently and i love morgan and garcia's friendship and how (shocker) they aren't interested in each other romantically
my standards are so low can hetero people please write better
Yeah, he's way out of her league.
Ignoring Keld, I agree with u totally :) I'm a big time Criminal Minds fan and I always adored how Morgan and Garcia have a fully platonic relationship and yet they express physical affection to each other and can playfully flirt with one another and stay in a platonic relationship :)
@@555blqstarr But he is and we all know it. That what makes rooting for it so fun.
@@keld101 You are just extremely shallow
Honestly, having this trope deeply internalized in me has made it really hard to ever make friends with the opposite sex when im constantly worried that whatever "friendship" we'll have will inevitably develop into romance because supposedly one of us is bound to fall in love at some point 😒
Really though, i just wanna be friends...with everyone/anyone 😭 girl or guy guy or girl i just wanna be chill with everyone
From my experience, when you are friends with many people and it is roughly a 50/50 split (because that's how humans work... if you meet a random person there is a 50% chance of it being male or female...) then it is never an issue that 'someone is going to fall in love'.
I find life simpler to just become friends with people who are fun to talk to and have similar hobbies and have common goals. No quotas of 'this' many male friends vs 'this' many female friends.
Yeah, there have been a few times in my life where someone I was friends with brought up the topic of perusing further romance. (certainly a small percentage of the people I have been friends) But after explaining I was focused on other things and not looking for romance, things went back to normal.
I think it only gets toxic when you have a person who only has one particular 'friend' of the opposite sex while not overall viewing the opposite sex as a whole as just normal people like anyone else.
But maybe I'm bias, I wouldn't say I am asexual and aromantic but I lean pretty close to that and usually find other things in life much more interesting than romance and sex.
18:50 as someone under the aromantic spectrum i really appreciate this part, it's really nice. People make you think that you MUST get into a romantic relationship at some point and otherwise you're "missing out", "heartless" or "will die alone"
I read it “aromatic spectrum” and imagined a person who smells nice all the time 🤣 anyway I should go to bed ahahaha
same, also aromantic, and it's like what am I missing out on? Compromising my dreams? My own space? My 'me' time? And I have plenty of good friends who will be there when I die and I couldn't give less of a cr*p about anyone else. I don't understand why my end goal 'must' be a romantic relationship I have more important things to focus on
im aro ace and hearing that rhetoric is starting to get really fcking old.
Just an ace but hearing that men and women can't be friends because of some sexual tension just sounds ridiculous every time
@@peiithos Another aro ace here, I can’t begin to tell how annoying this view of “females and males can’t be friends” is. I’ve been shipped with a few of my guy friends and it really ruins the friendship. Why do people act like guys are always trying to have sex or find a girlfriend like that’s all they do?
I know this is discussing the hetero-normative version, but if a Pansexual person believed it, they'd be one of the loneliest people on earth...Asexuals would be the inverse.
I'm here. The loneliest person on earth. That's me.
Its me. I have friends.
no wonder my aroace ass keeps finding random people lmao, at least they're chill and all I guess (until people start catching feelings idk)
Oh dear, us panromantic asexuals are a paradox :D
I'm asexual and I'm lonely 🙂
YAY. WE HAVE FINALLY GOT TO SEE A COW🐄🐄🐄
I always hated this trope. I've had several female friends, some of whom I was close to. I did date one but the rest were just my friends. I think it's important, especially in children and teens, for girls to have guy friends and vice versa. Girls need a positive, non-familial male role model who won't try to sleep with them. They need a guy to rely on and trust. They need to know that guys aren't all looking for sex. Guys, meanwhile, need a positive female role model to allow them to see women as not just sex objects. Even for adults, it's important.
I think sex education is also a show that does a great job at showing female/male friendships!
Ikr! Its just an overall phenomenon show
I feel my huge problem with this trope is that it's never ( or very rarely) been best friends to lovers. It's usually like person A has always had a crush on person B and then person B comes around eventually or the relationship comes out of nowhere. We never normally get to see two people who share an equal platonic love for one another, who have solid chemistry grow with one another and develop these romantic feelings together while still having that foundation of friendship. We never get to see how intricate and beautiful this trope is because of how people have written relationships like this.
I think in the Percy Jackson Books the trope works very well because there is like 4 books of developement before they realise their feelings but it was shown from the beginning, that their hemistry is great
Ron and Hermione also. This is probably also age-based, but neither one pines for too long. Plus, Harry and Hermione and Harry and Luna are platonic only, so it does not deny the existence if such relationships.
This is literally the relationship between Kim Possible and Ron Stoppable (who is one of the few "best friends to lovers" that really works, because you see them being actual friends for three season)
Very eloquently put. I think The Spectacular Now and The Edge of Seventeen are examples of this trope done well
@@kathrinlindern2697 Ron and Hermione are great in the books but the movies eh
As an ace person, you just spoke to my soul. Thanks for making me feel validated!
same, as another ace :)
same
Same
Same
aroace over here
I had a guy pretend to be my best friend for 12 years, entire time he just wanted to get in my pants. I think I rejected him about 3 times before eventually he made moves on me while I was asleep. I don’t really know why I tried to salvage that friendship, I think it was because of my insistent belief that men and women could be platonic friends, but, it was definitely ruined for me.
Sorry you had to go through that. That guy sounds like Big Ed when he talked about ‘being in the friend zone’ for 13 years, when in actuality he didn’t tell his friend how he felt about her for 13 years, hoping something was going to just happen, giving his supposed friendship a duplicitous and disingenuous quality
Oh no I hope you ve healed
That's heartbreaking. He probably never thought of you as a person holy shit
Eww wtf
People like him is what makes me hate being a boy
This is probably the reason I second guess everything for fear of giving a man "the wrong idea"
Yup, but even then feelings often still develop. It's a utilitarian thing. You're a girl. You're here. The guy's already invested. In the guys head a switch gets flipped and then eventually he realizes he might as well give it a go. If it's a guy friend they usually have good intentions, at least at the beginning.
I respect your ability to manage that anxiety.
I feel like so many male female relationships have so much more depth and meaning when it's platonic. The friendships feel so much more genuine and beautiful than the romances. I really like these relationships but there are so few of them. The last one I read about was in a YA series. The main character has a really close friendship with one of the male characters. It was such a wonderful relationship and the best in the whole series.
Could you tell me the name of the series?
@@sarahnoia3495 Sure thing. The series is called Shatter me.
@@clal8030just because you feel this way doesn't mean that we do. You're not entitled to our friendship.
The other thing that happens with this trope is that it holds up childhood romances as superior to other types. Relationships aren't worse because you met as adults.
I have a lot of strong feelings on this subject. I am male, and I have had close female friendships going back to preschool. In my last year of high school, my social circle was almost entirely female (with one exception). I dealt with piles of shippers back then, and the question of senior prom (to which I took someone as a friend) devolved into a shipping war resembling that caused by a harem anime. Some of the time the attention was fun, but a lot of the time it was annoying, and I've always been bothered by the sheer lack of representation in media for what was to me normality - people who like similar stuff hanging out and talking about it.
I was recently talking with a female friend about gender stuff and she remarked that some of her male friends had stopped hanging out with her after they learned she was in a relationship. She said other friends of hers had reported this as well, and I found that to be really sad. Hang out with cool people because they're cool! (Though I will say that I think part of the reason I had so many female friends was that I wasn't attempting to date any of them, and that made them feel more comfortable around me - we were all "just" friends and that was a good thing.)
I get you , man ! 'Shipping' ruined my elementary school life . I was best friends with a boy when I was a kid , we practically grew up together because our moms befriended each other while picking us up from daycare . But when we were in first and second grade a few classmates started a rumor we were involved in 'that way' behind our backs - by classmates I mean seven and eight year olds who watched too many TV shows about kids falling in love . And let's just say things went downhill from then on .
I met and befriended another girl in my class who was new to the school when we sat together in the bus ( I was ranting about the mean kids and she taught me a new swear word - 'bitchy'' to use in place of 'mean' ) . And my male best friend eventually found his own crowd and we had to pretend we were never friends or acquaintances or anything . By the time our last year of elementary rolled around we literally ran away from each other even during shared classes because of those memories and spent our middle and high school careers ignoring each other when our moms met for shopping or dinner because at that point we were actually teens who had romantic feelings for other people and it was too awkward .
So yeah , I wish the media would stop sexualising everything from platonic opposite sex relationships to close sibling bonds (like , the amount of movies and TV shows on brother and sister incest are alarming) . Becuase it affects real children . I still believe that I would be less picky about friends and more genuine about in real feelings if my first friendship hadn't been sexualised and I'd found exactly what 'fucking' was at age 13 like a normal person rather than when I was 8 .
Honestly just hearing the fact that you have a lot of female friends makes me want to be your friend. 😂 But seriously tho, you are right.
@@jules2291 as someone who also likes 'shipping' this hurts, but you do have a good point.
@@jules2291 Referring to the example in the video about Jake and Amy from Brooklyn 99, there's actually a scene that shows a flashback at soon after Jake and Amy became friends and Charles shipped them. Jake and Amy remark that Charles shipping them only distanced them from each other and set back their eventual realization that they liked each other romantically.
I wish people understood that in real life. Friends might become romantically in love eventually, but they certainly would not if people kept forcing them into it. Just let people have whatever friendships or romances they want without judgment.
For F sake, that's sad.
It really proves it's all too true, most men will just hang around you hoping to get some.
How the F are we supposed to ever trust a guy after this and that etc.
My two best friends are girls, and as a male, I can confidently say that we are friends and there is no romance.
Why not? They let you see their gross side too soon? Killed the mood?
@@keld101 Or they, idk, aren’t attracted to eachother?
@@keld101 seriously dude, get therapy
@@keld101 You really are incapable of viewing women as people you can just chill with, are you?
Incels really lack self awareness. They complain about being alone and how no woman wants them but will be overly judgemental when a woman shows that she's capable of pooping. If you're so grossed out by human beings doing human things, get a sex doll or a robot as your gf.
@@spaghetti3406 Isn't that basically what I said?
The "friends to lovers" trope (or at least the lazy version of it) isn't just full of "nice guys" -- it basically *is* the "nice guy" of relationship tropes. The whole narrative logic is "I'm her friend, so I get right of first refusal on a relationship" -- and yeah, the "nice guy" is the "I" there because stories using the trope are so often male-gazey as hell.
I always found it funny that (at the time these movies were made anyway) no one would have seriously said that gay men couldn’t just be friends with men, or lesbian women couldn’t be friends with women. It’s how I figured that the statement, “Herero men and women can’t be friends” was complete BS.
I actually disagree... partially? I'm just going off of memory here but i think that gay men being with other gay men (same w lesbians) is usually fine, but the idea that gay people can't be friends with straight people of the same gender has been weirdly reinforced by media. Like the whole "gay guy is secretly in love with his straight friend" trope is just the same trope but without a "happy ending". Also the fact that gay men especially are often depicted as having mainly or only female friends. And a lot of people irl internalized the whole "if someone is attracted to you and you know it, you can't be friends" to extend to gay people
It's because gay people are minority and heterosexuals are everywhere so ppl expect a girl to be 90% attracted to a male friend and vise versa. What is stupid.
As a former “nice guy,” I’m so grateful you pointed out how this stereotype - and the forced “friends to lovers” trope - reinforce the myth of being “friend zoned.”
In hindsight, I feel so bad for times I felt like “but…. I’m the real friend, shouldn’t she be with me?? 🥺🥺”
And…… I’ve also had the reverse happen (albeit women are far less likely to be *aggressive* over this), where I’d be guilted so hard for not wanting to date a friend. “She’s such a good friend! Why aren’t you dating? Is it because she isn’t pretty enough? WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU?!”
Also…. Yeah… platonic friendships are EXTREMELY fulfilling. And I also don’t know why the “romantic relationship” is seen as the “ultimate end goal.” Like- i feel like the most common form of “advice/reassurance” people give when someone is lonely is “aww, cheer up! You’ll find her eventually!!!”
Like…… what if that’s not even what I’m trying to find…? 🙄 but people insist “aww but your goal is to get married! So you’ll find her eventually!”
^^when….no, no it isn’t my goal
@@slowrunn3r88"Aww, you'll find her eventually..."
"Mate, my Grandma died. What do you mean I'll find her eventually?!... Wait, do I LOOK single?"
omg sometimes this plot just pisses me off! especially when there were no romantic feeling and no 'spark' between characters at all...like..their romance at the end was so unnecessary..
Fun fact: When Harry Met Sally is based on the real life friendship between Rob Reiner and Nora Ephron (the director and screenwriter) who did not end up together. Harry and Sally were initially supposed to not end up together either but the actors chemistry was too good.
My love for the friends-to-lovers and my wish for more intimate platonic relationships are always clashing in my mind
I thought no one was going to say this. I feel exactly the same way. I’m currently writing a story about a female-male beautifully wholesome childhood friendship. I want them to end up together because they complement each other so well but at the same time I’m tempted make it so they stay friends. The thing is, I don’t see them with anyone else. I can’t wrap my head around this, it’s killing me.
@@mirandajones7816 asdfghjk irk!! It's just...the romance si so tempting but also You would like to defy societies expectations and You become a mess
@@mirandajones7816 male them have a small friend group so that they can have meaningful opposite sex relationships but also date their childhood friend. maybe even make their bestie a different person not the love interest
@@mirandajones7816 May I introduce you to the concept of queerplatonic relationship?
I've always liked that Nick and Jess were friends, like actual friends, and then dated, and then were friends again, like actual friends, and then dated again. Some people didn't like how it took away the will they or won't they, but it was about they are actually stable parts of each other's life
About the thumbnail before watching the actual video: Harry and Hermione were a perfect platonic relationship, and in the books Hermione and Ron actually made a lot of sense together. Then Rowling had to come along and ruin it... -like she does with everything nowadays-
EXACTLY
Nope Ron and Hermione don’t make any sense in the books.