What do you think about Open Theism? Do you see these same problems? Do you see other problems? Are there other texts Open Theists cite to support their position? Discuss!
Thought this was very good and done fairly. I learned some things about open theism that I didn't know. There seems to be an underlying agenda or motive behind it. Like it a work around to maintain the free will of the individual while getting God off the hook for the evil in the world. But I don't really think it solves the problems they are trying to solve and in the end just makes God small and much more like a man.
Right on, man. There's more I could have said, but I wanted to keep this somewhat streamlined. It does seem like the concept of Open Theism is an attempt to get God off the hook for the existence of evil. However, even in their system, God knows that a given sin or sins is possible for a given person. But when it happens, He still allows it to happen, like theft, mass casualty events, or war. Open Theism, therefore, doesn't get around the issue; if God allows the sin, He still has to make it part of His plan in some way. And if God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, that necessarily means that Christ was the planned propitiation for sin from before the foundation of the world. If that's the case, sin has always been part of God's plan. But the Open Theist may be dealing with a terrible hurt, and may wish that God didn't specifically plan that hurt for him. Open Theism gives God that "out". This is a hard area to get into a meaningful exchange with an Open Theist over, as he will be assuming Presentism, without the Reformed person (or other non-Open Theist) understanding what is happening in the conversation. In many cases, such an exchange devolves into the Open Theist calling the other person a Neo-Platonist Augustinian Determinist who believes in a static God, and the other guy will have no idea what just happened. (I've personally had experiences like this and just heard a recording of Bob Enyart doing something similar years ago.) Listening to John Sanders, I've picked up a clue that helps. He said Cicero is the earliest pagan author who formulated the idea of Dynamic Omniscience. Since Cicero most often wrote about politics, government, and oratory, his theological/philosophical writings are few. I'm doing what I can to read Cicero's relevant writings and see if I can find what John was referring to. It may help me understand where John and similar Open Theists are coming from.
Do Open Theist not understand that time is a created thing/object? It's not like God existed in time before creation, then at one point in time he created heaven and earth. It's that he existed without time and created time, and time is relative which he is above/greater/outside of.
That is a major point of disconnect in discussion with an Open Theist. They will ask questions from a presupposition of Presentism, then work an interlocutor into a corner, making that person affirm that God is static or agree to Open Theism. But the starting presuppositions about time are completely incompatible.
What do you think about Open Theism? Do you see these same problems? Do you see other problems? Are there other texts Open Theists cite to support their position? Discuss!
Thought this was very good and done fairly. I learned some things about open theism that I didn't know. There seems to be an underlying agenda or motive behind it. Like it a work around to maintain the free will of the individual while getting God off the hook for the evil in the world. But I don't really think it solves the problems they are trying to solve and in the end just makes God small and much more like a man.
Right on, man. There's more I could have said, but I wanted to keep this somewhat streamlined.
It does seem like the concept of Open Theism is an attempt to get God off the hook for the existence of evil. However, even in their system, God knows that a given sin or sins is possible for a given person. But when it happens, He still allows it to happen, like theft, mass casualty events, or war. Open Theism, therefore, doesn't get around the issue; if God allows the sin, He still has to make it part of His plan in some way.
And if God chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world, that necessarily means that Christ was the planned propitiation for sin from before the foundation of the world. If that's the case, sin has always been part of God's plan.
But the Open Theist may be dealing with a terrible hurt, and may wish that God didn't specifically plan that hurt for him. Open Theism gives God that "out".
This is a hard area to get into a meaningful exchange with an Open Theist over, as he will be assuming Presentism, without the Reformed person (or other non-Open Theist) understanding what is happening in the conversation. In many cases, such an exchange devolves into the Open Theist calling the other person a Neo-Platonist Augustinian Determinist who believes in a static God, and the other guy will have no idea what just happened. (I've personally had experiences like this and just heard a recording of Bob Enyart doing something similar years ago.)
Listening to John Sanders, I've picked up a clue that helps. He said Cicero is the earliest pagan author who formulated the idea of Dynamic Omniscience. Since Cicero most often wrote about politics, government, and oratory, his theological/philosophical writings are few. I'm doing what I can to read Cicero's relevant writings and see if I can find what John was referring to. It may help me understand where John and similar Open Theists are coming from.
My only problem with open theism is that I don’t have a church that lives it near me.
Do Open Theist not understand that time is a created thing/object?
It's not like God existed in time before creation, then at one point in time he created heaven and earth. It's that he existed without time and created time, and time is relative which he is above/greater/outside of.
That is a major point of disconnect in discussion with an Open Theist. They will ask questions from a presupposition of Presentism, then work an interlocutor into a corner, making that person affirm that God is static or agree to Open Theism. But the starting presuppositions about time are completely incompatible.
@@reformedpilgrim gotcha. Yeah thanks for putting this video together and answering the question
@@Godfrey118 My pleasure. I hope you find this video useful.