The fact that there is no clear good guy or bad guy between the Mages and the Templars is what makes the conflict so good. Even over a decade later, I still couldn’t tell you if I made the right choice in Kirkwall
EXACTLY. Nuance, grey area, a lack of clarity in “right” and “wrong” - that’s Dragon Age, baby. That’s what makes this so fucking compelling. Thank you for the comment 🤙
this is why i love Dragon Age because there was no clear good guy in this... Unhinged mages can cause the destruction of a country meanwhile Templars can be cruel to mages.
It’s sort of like Fire Emblem Three Houses seeing how all Four sides, mainly the Empire, Kingdom, Alliance and Church are both right and wrong in how they want to improve Fodlan’s system or abolish the many laws and rules that have been plaguing Fodlan for years.
that's what an intelligent story does no clear black and white and in Inquisition you have another important issue which is how you use your power the Inquisitor has an enormous power people kneel in front of him/her what do you do? you use it for the common good or for yourself? Inquisition has even more deep themes like religion and the way you live religion do you believe do you not believe are you open minded are you a fanatic? heavy stuff.
Its not that the Templars are "cruel" to mages, mages are a second class The issue is how do people cope with feeling lesser. The templars are mage "overseers" mages are powerful why is that a problem, why do they need to be shipped off to circles and limited. Magic is power it dosent recognize good or evil it simply exists what its used for is up to the individual. Treating said individuals with said power like second class citizens ready to be purged if they become to rowdy is mad problematic. Treating mages poorly and creating that trauma makes mages more susceptible to possesion
@@p.fish_63 You are wrong. Magic in Dragon Age universe is evil as it comes from the veil and most of the times is fueled by spirits and demons there. Sooner or later any mage gets corrupted and either possessed by a demon or learn blood magic and control people. The whole Tevinter Imperium is what happens when mages are not overseen by templars and the chauntry - slavery and human control and mages ruling over everyone and everyone else being second class citizens. To tell the truth in Dragon Age world mages are really like walking ticking time bombs. They are a danger to everyone and the worst part is - no one knows when they will become possessed or learn blood magic. Only the blight and dragons are more dangerous than mages in Dragon Age universe. Your friend can be a mage and you have good fun and drinks in saturday but on sunday he gets possessed and destroys your entire village. Dragon Age universe magic is not like D&D magic.
Man I wish more people would give Vivienne the flowers she deserves, she really explores the prespective of a mage who is pro circle in conspect. She recognizes that while she has mastery of her magic, not everyone who has magic can be trusted with freedom to use it ethically or safely or is responsible / talented enough to do so. She realize that the current ways are broken but wants to bring back a new status quo for the protection of the common folk but also for the betterment of mages. Most folks consider her a chantry boot licker who acts like she is better than the other mages. I see her a someone who is socially minded and wants what's best for everyone mages included. Magic IS dangerous, socitity needs there to be a hand to hold those born with it and guide them. Folks act like we see Templars ONLY doing the hanious shit to mages they imprison but a LOT of the mages we meet over the series prove the dangers of magic and how helpless the common folk are against it. I was very pro mage until Hawkes mother in DA2 that made me honestly sit back and become pro templar, with the hopes that things could be improved for mages. It's a imperfect situation with no correct answers.
Finally, a fellow Vivienne apologist. It's hard out there for people like us, isn't it? I completely agree with everything you said. Most people see Vivienne strictly on a surface level and write her off, but I'd urge anybody to put aside their emotions on either persuasion and actually listen carefully to what Vivienne says. She's quite grounded and pragmatic whilst mostly everyone else is idealistic and starry-eyed about how they WISH things were, while Viv sees everything for what it is and works with it. I think that shows an admirable level of wisdom, I feel like Vivienne was a character who usually saw the bigger picture.
@LadyDecember We aren't common for sure! I just really apperiate that a series that has such a well written social issue that has both in and out of game polarization, they wrote a fantastic moderate. It would of been so easy to write her as strictly pro mage or pro chantry but she is neither and both at the same time. A lot of people have broken down DAI's themes to be about power and I love that Vivienne's character is reflect that in multiple ways. She has a position of high esteem and considerable political power. Yet much of her character is based around re-establishing a status-quo that would be a hindrance to most mages power. Though her goals are to ensure that overtime they have more personal freedoms and power, just not unchecked.
@7:59 Also, don't forget: long-term lyrium usage turns your brain into swiss cheese. So given that once a Templar has completed their training, their abilities can be used in the absence of lyrium (as we find out from Alistair in Dragon age Origins, and which is considered by the fact that any Warrior character in Origins can use Templar abilities, without ever ingesting lyrium, and including Dwarves who are immune to lyrium), why does the Chantry still have them use it? Because it's incredibly addictive, so any Templar who DOES get ideas about oh say reforming how they operate has plenty of motivation to keep their mouth shut, or else suffer withdrawal symptoms similar to heroin withdrawal (i.e. you want nothing in the world more than to die so the withdrawal pain will finally stop)
Is the Gameplay even Lore Accurate in this Franchise? Like even something that is considered magical ability is vague. I am a warrior but I could also summon fire from the ground I shattered.
@@anthonydavix I've never seen a warrior ability that does that, if you're talking about failgaurd you should know that it isn't canon. and lorewise gameplay matches, if you talk to Allistar he'll tell you that Templars can use their abilities without the need for lyrium and that it "Just makes them stronger"
I agree that there needs to be some education for the mages to lower the risk of demon possession, but my biggest issue with the conflict is that the mages are treated as second-class citizens and therefore lose most of, if not all of, their rights once they are captured by templars and placed in a circle. If mages had the same social standing as the average citizen, then the templars would lose the right to treat them the way they do. There are clear references in some of the books (Asunder specifically) where the templars starve their prisoners (this happened to Cole and it's mentioned in DAI) and it's implied in that book that the tranquil, women especially, are raped (at least I think that last part is in the book, I read a lot of fan fiction). My biggest problem with the templars is that, with some minute exceptions, all the templars featured abuse their power and they're not held accountable. What the mages did when they rebelled was self-defense.
Exactly, but it’s crazy how this fictional debate and position is understood by so many but then real life examples like the Palestinians defending their rights and freedom is such a controversial topic lol
mages are literally kidnapped in their childhood the moment they are discovered to be mages. It's not a complicated, morally ambiguous conflict at all. There needs to be oversight over mages and they need to be taught to control their powers, but not the way chantry does it.
My only issue with siding with the Mages in Dragon Age 2 os the Orsino knew about the activities of Quentin (The Necromancer From Starkhaven who was butchering women for years to make a patchwork bride, his magnum opus being Hawke's Mother Leandra.) And Did nothing, he hide his research and did nothing. Beyond that there's the factor of which Sibling is in which faction. But I'm rambling.
There was alot wrong with the city of Kirkwall. There were the Bonepits where the veil is thin from Tevinters throwing slaves off of cliffs, there's Coryphesus sleeping in his prison whispering like one of the old gods, and if you read the "Enigma of Kirkwall" it describes a massive blood magic ritual which might be linked to Hybrus (A greater pride demon hiding underneath the city)
@18:04 My man, Meredith hadn't been in the right frame of mind to be the voice of reason for a LONG time before this- even before she started getting influenced by the Lyrium Idol. The Idol accelerated her madness and paranoia, definitely, but even before she was EVER affected by it, she was already absolutely batshit. I have been playing-through the Dragon Age series for going on 10 years now, and I'm pretty darn certain that if Meredith had never been influenced by the Lyrium Idol and Orsino had been like "execute that vile terrorist who just blew up the Chantry and killed a bunch of innocent people," Meredith STILL would have done the maniac thing and called for the Circle's annulment
To tell the truth in Dragon Age world mages are really like walking ticking time bombs. They are a danger to everyone and the worst part is - no one knows when they will become possessed or learn blood magic. Only the blight and dragons are more dangerous than mages in Dragon Age universe.
@7:04: Sadly, aside from Lothering in Dragon Age Origins, we pretty much never see Templars doing paladin s**t. They seem to prioritize the whole "smiting the wicked (possessed mages or even unruly mages) + being ready to smite the wicked at a moment's notice" over "protecting ordinary people", basically to the point that the latter gets forgotten about
Originally the templar order was dedicated to the reinforcement of the real world able to deny fade shenanigans only for the templar order to decay through reinforced religious doctrine through fear and were meant to cull powerful yet unstable/High risk of possession mages. Meanwhile the mages apostate or tower circle mages require for the most part to be backed into a corner to do extremely risky things. Side note while anders is possessed he is possessed by a spirit of justice which is being corrupted into ghost mage: spirit of vengeance.
You forgot the part where the mages in DA2 (the ones you can side with to protect from getting chopped by the Templars) start using blood magic and possession the second they are threatened, making Meredith’s whole rite of annulment plan legitimate 😒
I‘m playing DAO right now as a mage. After finishing the mage Tower i gotta say the whole „mages vs templars“ is not really there in the first game. It‘s pretty obvious that the templars are absolutly necessary since one mage, even by accident, can lead to a demon destroying the whole world. Also both faction leaders have respect for each other and kind of work together. As far as i understand the conflict gets bigger in the second game, because the templars act more tyrannical and cruel. What i‘m trying to get at is that originally they weren‘t antagonists and more like two symbiotic factions that could even be considered two sides of the same coin. I know many people think the rules for mages are too strict, but how could you possiby do anything differently?
Uh. I absolutelly disagree with DAO shoving the Templars to be avsolutelly necessary. If abything the Tower wuests shows how inept they are. But in geberal DAO fucused way less on this aspect of the lore. Abd ya could do it differently the Avvar abd Rivaini does it. The reason Mages vs Templars gets bigger in tge second game is because that's the focus, for better or worse.
@ so you didn’t really provide any argument here, just stated your opinion. We see in redcliffe what can happen when a a low power kid mage gets corrupted, a whole town at the brink of getting wiped out needing a plotarmor main character to save them. In the broken circle we see what can happen when a powerful mage gets corrupted even under Templar surveillance. This event alone could have escalated into a catastrophe on the same level as the blight, maybe even worse. You’d probably say that the right of annulment is brutal, but again what if there wouldn’t be the overpowered protagonist? The Templars would have literally stopped a cataclysmic event from spreading beyond the tower. In the second game, wich I’m playing right now, everything is dumbed down and pulled into extremes, mages turning into demons at the blink of an eye, just because they’re scared, Templars being sadistic, powerhungry and corrupt. In Origins the vast majority of Templars and mages were happy with their life and had a mutual understanding of the reality and necessity of the situation.
@@wingthomaux Uh. I just voiced my opinion no reasin to get pissy..... In Redcluff the whole incident happened because the Circles are so terrible the mother rather hid the kid. In the Tower, oh the Tower. Lets see what happens. The Templars, an antimagic elit squad who's one and only job is to deal with maleficar and abominations camp outside of the Tower, after they flead becazse a whole garisdon of them coukdn't do the one thing they exist for. Come the protag, who by lore, especially at this point, isn't more powerfull that elit trained Templars, clears house. Sorry, but all this shows is how inefective Templars are, and how, and how a green as grass fresh Warden recruit, who has no antimagic training, is more effective. My man, Kinlocj Hold purposefully baits apprentices to do bloodmagic as a test of character, and they put people in year long solitary confinenent. Cullen also talk abouth how a good number of Templars discuss killing mages gleefully. It's nit a good place, it's just lightly less in your face.
@@i.cs.z Uh. I wasn’t being pissy at all, just stated that you didn’t really provide any argument. So about redcliffe you just ignore what happened and blame the "system“ for bad individual choices. You use a circular argument, saying that keeping mages under control is bad and that’s why it happened, but if the "system“ wouldn’t keep mages under surveillance, it would have happened anyways since the boy would also still be there. On the tower you act like the Templars have an edge on mages in battle, but they don’t. They have specific training and snort Lyrium to have any chance against magic user, since normally they would easily wipe the floor with any warrior. So the Templars barely even the playing field, but still have to act super careful to not let corruption spread. This is all established in the mage origins, where the Templars are literally so afraid of one single mage getting corrupted in the harrowing that they would kill them only if they’ve taken too long. And a acting like the warden isn’t an overpowered, plot armor wearing main character is just silly. I think you oversimplify the situations on purpose to keep villainizing the Templars and victimizing the "poor mages who just want to be free 🥹“. In a way it seems like you adopted DA2s sense of morality and conflict, maybe you played it first. In DAO there are bad people in every faction, but like in reality most people just want a peaceful life, wich means understanding the inherit danger you as a mage posses for the other people and as a Templar means controlling that danger as good as possible while giving the mages as much freedom as possible, wich they do in the circle. It’s not like the Templars have a better lifestyle or whatever than the mages, they basically just stand guard while the mages do research, science, practice Magic, echantments, etc. I think you’re missing out with that narrow viewpoint, but hey you probably didn’t even read until here, so byee.
@wingthomaux You were pissy. And expressing an opinion doesn't need an argument. This wasn't an argument till you made it one. No I don't ignore it, but the whole fiasco was the system's fault. You are very prone to go "but dangerous" to ignore how messed up the whole system is. And no, if the Circle system wasn't there, mages wouldn't be segregated, and it would have been easyer to find someone who tutirs the kid. You subscribe to the circulating argument that the conflict is nuanced and grey because it says so, ignoring lot of the actual text abd presrntstion if the game. And no, actually I base the morality of the conflict mostly on DAO, and DA2 wasn't my first game. I think DA2 actually tried and failed to make Templars seem more neccesary. Yes Templars have an edge. No, acting like the protag, in lore is more OP at that point, because plot armour ui silly. In lore you are a regular warrior/ rouge/ mage at that point. The Templars, based on lore should be more powerfull than you. You are not OP, the Templars are weirdly underpiwered, actually. I think you are clinging to the premise a bit too much. And fail to accept that yes, unfortunatelly, in text the conflict isn't as grey by far as intended. And unlike you I read the ehole of your argument. Something I doubt you did for me. One more thing for the Templars. I think the conflict is actually more like Chantry vs Mages, and the Templars are a private military branch of the Chantry. The Templars are still fucked over by the Chantry, but the mages are fucked over by both. You most likely didn't read this, so have a good day!
Recently found your channel and have been LOVING your videos. They're exactly what ive been looking for and you present everything so well. Keep up your amazing work!
@@channel45853well given that Orsino and the other circle mages seemed to know alot about blood magic when push came to shove I don't think there were that many innocents. But that is the bane of the mages in DA 2 damned if they do and dead if they don't
I like how everyone ignores the fact that is very clear that mages in control is bad in these games. With oppression and slaving being a main stay in such a culture. Elves before the veil, tevintar in both old and new(new tevintar was like every else with circles before mages where free and it turn into what is today). Also mages made the dark spawn when they where in charge so it not like mage society lead to anywhere good. I don’t think mages should mistreat but they sure shit shouldn’t be in charge of anything.
The way the templars were written in 2 was awful. Last second asspull of "oh red lyrium made them craaaaaazy". If the templars had some more nuance it could have been a much more interesting moral dilemma. In DA1, you have to grapple with the potential of killing innocent people to protect civilians, or taking the risk because you have hope that some mages are still sane. The templars make sense in world. In d&d, a first level wizard can cast charm person and control a person to a degree that is terrifying. Magic is scary, and when theres the potential for a mage to get bodyjacked by demons on top of all the power they have, most people would attempt to exterminate them. Just like with mass effect, its a game that has an amazing first game, then got ruined after being under the filthy paws of EA.
I mostly side with Mages since they‘ve been oppressed the same way the Elves were oppressed. Sure Mages run the risk of demonic possession, but they should learn how to control their powers and not give into any thing a demon does to tempt them. Plus Templars have a Lyrium addiction problem and if they consume too much of it, their brains would turn into cheese. Meaning that they wouldn’t be the best guards against demonic threats since they would spend most of their time inhaling Lyrium for days on end.
@9:46 If the phrasing of "get whatever you want from them" creeps you out: yes it includes exactly what you're worrying it includes, with alarming frequency
@18:33 the reason there is so much blood magic popping-up being used by mages in Kirkwall, the high rate of mages being possessed by demons, the ridiculously-high number of mages who die during their Harrowings, and the high number of demons encountered throughout Dragon Age 2 all stem from the same source: the Veil is unusually-thin in Kirkwall, and the place where it is thinnest is The Gallows, i.e. WHERE THE CIRCLE IS. They literally could not have set the mages up to fail harder if they were deliberately trying to! See the Dragon Age Wiki's articles on The Band of Three and The Enigma of Kirkwall to learn more
exactly. Kirkwall used to be centre of slave trade, pumped with Tevinter blood magic. They are still keeping the slave statues as a nice reminder and the place where the Circle si located is still called Gallows ... Kirkwall was showing you the extreme enhanced version of the mage templar conflict, the good and bad mages, the good and bad templars. It is one of the reasons I love DAII.
It's interesting because the Mages are mostly chill but just one renegade mage can bring about massive suffering. So there's good arguments for the Templars as an organisation. In practice however, the fear and desperation Templars inflict as well as some just being genuinely tyrannical creates problems where there might never have been any in some cases. Mage Circles and Templars on equal footing makes the most sense. Templars should watch but not clamp their boots down so hard.
@7:30 Templars are also picked for martial prowess and religious devotion, with stuff like intelligence, empathy, ability to read people, ability to keep themselves under control etc. etc.- all the things you would logically want in a protector of the innocent and force for all that is good- NOT CONSIDERED AT ALL
i think cullen says it best in inquisition if you take the templar skill tree and you tell them we can make the order better "a former templar and one that never took the order seem to be the ones who can see the problems"
Hey, thank you so much for the comment! I am, in fact, working on the script for the next DA video as of this morning - and the working title is V_DragonAge_TheQun. I appreciate the suggestion very much! -SJ
@@10pointsofslashingI’m so glad I found this channel when I did, all of your content has been amazing so far and I look forward to what you’ll do in the future!
How can anybody think the Qun could be a good thing? A society where personal freedom doesn't exist where you are only a cog in the system and the state decides who you are and what you can do? It's the absolute opposite of democracy it's a nightmare.
@11:19 It should come as no surprise that an act as powerful as this has a history of abuse. There are AT LEAST 2 instances where it was used in a corrupt manner (as in: hundreds of people were slaughtered with no trial and no mercy, when they had done nothing wrong): -----In 3.09 Towers (i.e. the 9th years of the third age, which was called the Towers Age,) the Circle of Magi of Antiva was annulled to cover-up the fact that a Knight-Captain (a senior templar) was a serial killer who had killed over a hundred mages..... for kicks -----Then in 9.40 Dragon, the Circle of Magi of Rivain was annulled because they were allowing the mages to visit their families and interact with the outside world. Yep, that's right! If you (templars) decide to be decent humans so your internment camp isn't interment-campy-enough, and the Templar leadership finds out, they respond by extrajudicially murdering hundreds of innocent people who were posing 0 threat to anyone. And that's not even touching the events in Kirkwall during Dragon Age 2; I'll wait and timestamp that with anything I want to add
@16:43 I am very glad that you acknowledge that Meredith is ALSO a shitstain for wanting to annual the Kirkwall Circle despite Anders having ZERO affiliation with them, thank you. But I want to add a couple things to really drive home how much Meredith deserves our (the fans') eternal hatred. A Dragon Age II player might very well think that Meredith only called for the Rite of Annulment in response to Anders blowing up the Chantry of Kirkwall, and was not bothering to contact the Chantry for approval about it. But that is incorrect. She already HAD done so, BEFORE Anders blew up the Chantry of Kirkwall. The player character can find out that offscreen, Meredith requested the Rite in-between Act 2 and Act 3, i.e. LONG before anything had happened to actually warrant it. Thankfully, the Grand Cleric of Kirkwall responded to her request how a normal, non-maniac person would, and denied it. So Meredith requested it AGAIN from the Divine of the Chantry (basically the Dragon Age Pope.) The only thing that changed when Anders blew up the Kirkwall Chantry was that Meredith decided to not wait for anyone's permission and decided to slaughter every mage in the Kirkwall Circle, despite the fact that not only is Anders NOT A MEMBER OF THAT CIRCLE as SJ mentions, which the First Enchanter (head of the Circle) points out to her immediately, but Anders (THE CULPRIT WHO DID IT) was STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER. She has such a boner for killing all the mages in the Circle that she doesn't even bother to arrest Anders to show the people of Kirkwall that the person who did this is in custody and is going to face justice for what he has done. She doesn't WANT the people of Kirkwall to calm down, she wants them whipped into a frenzy so she can claim "I had to do something! The people were panicking!" The destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry was Meredith's Cassius Belli (excuse for war.) She wasn't pushed to annul the circle by the killing of innocent people, but rather the killing of innocent people gave her the excuse she needed to do what she had been wanting to do for yeeeeeeeears
I Love to play both sides of it !!! I love how much you love Dragon Age !!! My current Playthrough I’m an Elf Warrior Templar !!! I Love it !! I can’t wait to play VeilGuard !!!
I always play a Mage so always side with the mages. But I can at least see why the Templars exist. I try to view it based on most extreme end if one side gets what they want with Origin and the tower being probably my favorite case where I can see both side’s point, the Mages became abominations and the Templars were concerned it was not over, the surviving Mages wanted to live. I chose the side that would have been wiped out by the other if things went in the wrong direction so chose Mages. But yeah, Blood Mages are a legitimate problem but it seems like most Templar vs Mages becomes the mages as a whole on the chopping block while Mages being less regulated could result in some really scary stuff but hopefully on an individual basis.
We know that Tevinter, with all of it's unregulated magic, isn't exploding with abominations all the time; wich proves that all of the opression that mages suffer troughout Thedas is largely pointless. Taking mages away from their families, locking them up, and constantly treating them with fear and suspicion only exacerbates the problem! What those mages need is TRAINING, above all else, to know how to controll their powers and avoid the perils of demons.
I completely, 100% agree with the second half of your comment! I went into that a bit more at length in the Horrors of Magic. However, I always like to caution against using Tevinter as a blueprint for what “right” looks like. The lack of a control system for magic in Tevinter is why we have the Blights, arguably the most horrendous cataclysm Thedas has ever faced. Not to mention the number of Tevinter mages we see throughout the Dragon Age franchise that use blood magic or just powerful magic in general to hurt, kill, and manipulate people. I’m just saying - I totally get your point, but Tevinter, the land of unadulterated magical chaos, is definitely not a great argument in favor of mage freedom when the opposing argument is, “mage freedom results in unadulterated magical chaos”, lol
You are correct. There is a society in Tevinter that is deplorable sure, but well maintained with laws and a social system in place. If they can do so with their mages free so can everyone else. Orlais has "Circles" like Viviene's that are nothing like other Circles in Thedas. Mages live almost completely free there too. No unadulterated magical chaos in Tevinter or Orlais to be found. There is corruption but thats everywhere. Mages do not need to be shacked and oppressed, they need to be educated. Moreover mages who are educated will not fall prey to a demon without the mages permission. Its completely inaccurate to say that a mage can be possessed at any point like the video pointed out.
@@10pointsofslashing But that is the point. If Tevinter, the land of unadulterated magical chaos isn't overrun by abominations, when by how magic allegedly works it should, then what's up? If a place with "fuck it we ball" mentality regarding dark magic does fine in the that regard, is magic really that dangerous as the Chantry/ Templars say?
How do we know they arent "exploding with abominations" all the time? They have no issue using Blood Magic so instead of murdering the Abomination wouldnt they just enslave it?
@@i.cs.z I just asked the original comment but are we ABSOLUTELY sure they dont have Abominations coming out the woodwork? This is a place that USES BLOOD MAGIC, something that has been established to allow the enslavement of spirits/demons as well as people. I'd imagine they'd waste not/want not an Abomination and just enslave it. Presuming the first they they teach mages isnt the blood magic to control demons... which given the few tevinter fights i remember from DA2 would seem like basic curriculum given how many demons show up when fighting Tevinter mages.
21:41 Slight correction, An demon was impersonating Lord Seeker Lucius when you meet him in Val Royeaux and in Champions of the Just. However, The real Lord Seeker Lucius is actually insane and is a part of a doomsday cult.
Hey, there! We sure do. Several times in just Origins and 2 alone. Connor, the Baroness, Grace, and of course, Anders - to name a few of the more impactful ones we see throughout the series. By definition, any mage that is not part of the Circle or abiding by the Chantry’s laws is deemed apostate, so you could lump Marethari in there as well. And technically Uldred would be considered apostate, too
The real villain of the Mage V Templar situation is the chantry all the power to make a change for the better while lazily sitting on their hands. Giving powers to the templars thats put them on a leash and make them crazy. The knight commanders who are problem the most affected assuming theyve been templars the longest can literally decide to execute every mage. Specifically DA2 where Merideth invokes the Rite of Annulment over an act that was done by an ex Gray Warden Apostate. Truly the beat case senario for every one involved is a mass circle reform where the mages are raised to a certain level of competency and allowed to reintegration into society
I think the templars and the chantry treat all this with fear and no logic, they create good ambients for demonic posessions with fear and hate. So I always side with the mages because I think they need to study this issue and seek a better option.
I always liked to play as a mage who supports the circle. It resonated the most with me, because while the system needs heavy adjustment, it serves an important purpose.
To be honest the templars have every right to fear the mages because just one of them can cause suck damages but I feel like the newer games only every how the evil side to the templars and always show the mages as innocent and even when the mages do wrong devs pull oh but the mages have had such a bad experience and shitty life
I loved your choices and reasons, as mine are nearly exactly the same. The reasoning was pretty much the same. Though in Inquisition, I still choose the mages, but I agree that it was hard after my playthrough choosing the Templars. Just saying that was the only part where we differed. Awesome analysis 👌
The thing is, Anders' actions did work to jettison the mage/templar tension building up, while also hurting what he thinks the real cause of the oppression of mages is, the chantry. In terms of better ways to do it, there likely wasn't a better way to do it.
I'm not sure terrorism that lead the entire circle of mages and templar order into war across thedas was really a smart move. Remember, a lot of mages didn't want to split off or go to war, but many were forced to because of what Anders did and many mages who never wanted this died as a result.
@@VexdinLord To be fair, Anders knew very well that not all mages wanted to go to war but he also knew that sooner or later, a Meredith would show up in their area to slowly crush their circles into dust too. He's clearly conscious that he'll be hated for his actions but it's a gamble he's ready to take because without change, mages will be crushed at some point, it's only a matter of when.
@hondshoven8477 i know what his motivations are. They're consistent with his character ever since Justice turned into Vengance and poisoned his mind into someone who would go to extremes. That doesn't change the fact that what he did was morally wrong and caused an already unsteady situation to spiral out of control into something nobody was prepared for. There's a difference between rallying the mages into rebellion and preparing them for war vs throwing everyone into war whether they wanted it or not.
@@VexdinLord He tried organizing a rebellion, or at least the roots of one, through the mage underground that Meredith crushed mercilessly by act 3. There's a good reason mages never organized into a rebellion for centuries before Kirkwall exploded in such a fashion that every mage went rogue : the templars have so little oversight that they can crush any attempt at organizing something peaceful. One guy talks too much ? Tranquil it is, we swear he was tempted by demons your grace ! A group of mages within a circle starts making demands about better treatment ? Whoopsie daisy, looks like we have no choice but to use the Right of annulment, they were obviously blood mages. Not to forget too that when the Chantry asked them to chill after 2, they instead decided to go rogue to keep hunting mages so even if Anders somehow pulled it off and the Chantry made concessions, it would have still ended in blood.
@@hondshoven8477 I think what you're discussing here is true for the Kirkwall Templars. They had an insane amount of power and lack of oversight to the point that independent templars went around killing apostates and mages who were just trying to see their family. That was a failure on the Chantry in Kirkwall who should have had every authority to stop this but was too inactive when it mattered. It's also a very special case, as the Knight Commander was very popular with the locals of Kirkwall and was seen as a hero, thus making her more popular than even the Chantry leader. Most Towers that house mages don't have that kind of power imbalance that's so insanely Templars vs Mages. Fereldan's Tower was stated that the Mages and Templars had a decent relationship with one another in spite of the Resolutionists clearly wanting independence. Most Towers didn't turn you tranquil for daring to question a templar, and the level of power abuse varied across Thedas. What Anders ended up doing was forcing the mages all around Thedas, who might not have wanted to leave the towers, to either rebel and leave their lives behind, or stay and face the consequences for those who made that choice for you. A Mage vs Templar war was inevitable, maybe even necessary. However, it was never for Anders to force the issue on the whole world by killing the only people in the Kirkwall conflict who also wanted peace. I'm sure all the Tranquils who were taken advantage of by Tevinter mages or even their own mages and turned into skull eyeglasses were very grateful that some guy in Kirkwall decided they couldn't remain in the towers.
The only real problem is how mages are treated socially, especially by regular chantry staff. Everything else about how they're regulated is acceptable, aside from the rite of tranquility. Even Tevinter acknowledges the danger of possession and forces their mages, the highest social caste, to undergo The Harrowing. If mages aren't kept in check, Ferelden would become like the Imperium. The Evanuris are also a great example of this.
Might be the un popular opinion but i 100 percent agree with the templers in every game we are shown the horror of abominations and how most mages will go to blood magic the millisecond they feel cornered orsino literally used blood magic and remember what anders said a mage just can't stumble across blood magic they have to make a deal with a demon say yes to its offer
Unpopular, sure - but totally reasonable. As long as you're not endorsing the whole abuse of power or general inhumane mistreatment thing, I think the games make it incredibly clear that magic is insanely dangerous and the Templars are necessary. Otherwise, we end up with Tevinter - slavery, all-powerful mage gods, the Blight, etc...
I agree. I went with the mages in the first 2 games, and I’ve done both in Inquisition. It felt like the Templars in inquisition got screwed because of the Envy demon…especially Ser Barris.
I always sided with the mages but recent playthrough I tried templars side and honestly I found that templars mission and that envy demon trying taking our inquisitors side honestly way more interesting rather mages with Alexius and time magic and honestly Calpernia more interesting as Inquisitiors torn in his backside rather than Templar Sampson,so yeah tried both sides and templars side were interesting, but it's players choise to keep templars and their order intact or disband them and reform them or ally with mages or conscript them,the decision is yours.
I have to break a lance for Greagoir: He is very reluctant to call the Right of Annullment and basically begs you to save Irving. He is much more happy, when Irving and the other mages are ok than if you kill them all. He is one of the better templars and seems to have a great working relationship with Irving. I would say they two together work great as a team and are both the good guys. I totally agree about Anders, still Meredith is not fit to be knight commander. Even without the red lyrium, she is clearly traumatised and biased and should not be able to have power over the people she hates. Kirkwall was in a special situation though, since the veil was pretty thin there because of the murders and atrocities done by the Tevinter back in the days. That is, why there are also so many serial killers around, like that magistrates son, or the one you hunt through 3 acts. There is a secret string of codexes, called The eNigma of Kirkwall, that explains this very well. SO basically, while Anders and Meredith both lost their shits, they might not have lost their shits so hard in part of the world (not justifying what they did, it just seems, that the weakening of teh Veil serves like a conduit for bringing out the worst in people). In the first two games, I side with the mages, because Greagoir is happier with Irving alive (and we can save quite a lot of mages) and Meredith is wrong. I pretend Orsino loosing it didn't happen, because he was pretty down to earth the whole game and the devs even said, that he only transformed, because they wanted another boss fight. In DAI there is no wrong decision for me. Both are vial. Though I prefer to do In Hushed Whispers, because it has this nice Doctor Who timeywhimey storyline. But I think, the templar quest is pretty interesting too. I think, both a valid to do. I just love the Doctor and companion vibe , Dorian and inqui have in IHW. It's more adventurous. I hated, that they shoved Cullen on us though. He was a lunatic in DAO and a Meredith apologizer for most of DA2 and I don't like him. He allowed mages to get abused in Kirkwall. As for good and bad: there are pretty bad people on both sides and pretty good ones. Wynne is a really good example of a very caring and responsible mage, Greagoir is the same for the templars. In DAO 2 you have Bethany , Alain and Feynriel (you two mage companions are both peices of shit sadly, Merrill doesn't take blood magic and demon deals serious at all and after having her along for Night Terrors, I lost all respect for her) and Thrask and Emmrich on the templars side. In DAI you have a lot of great people on both sides and even a fade spirit that helps you.
Cullen wasn't a lunatic in DAO. In DAO we had no idea if the remaining mages in the tower with Uldred had survived or not, or been tortured into blood mages. If the tower had been on the mainland, instead of having been on an island then chances are that things could've been much worse - especially with the templars low numbers in the the tower at the time. Cullen was also tortured - probably was sexually assaulted by desire demons - in the tower, alongside being starved as Wynne put it. He saw his comrades fall in battle, with himself being the last one left. He wasn't insane, he had reasons - albeit probably ruthless reasons by today's standards - for wanting to do the litany.
i did pick the mage on my 1st full play and really take a long time to get to the end ( 2022) and now playing so a mage dating a templar so yea i going to pick the templar, if i mess up will replay it to make a warrior to date solas yes i am so going to do it
I love this video so much. It goes over so many points and choices that make Dragon Age so complex as a game. What I would argue over the mage side, is that they are still human beings and they don't choose to be mages, they simply are. They are also likely all meant to be scholars in order to learn to use their abilities and where they come from and that is their strength and also usefulness to the world. While templars represent stability, they also represent an unchanging world, using means that are no longer viable, while mages represent progress. Part of the reason why mages feel confined, is because their rules of confinement are never updated despite them discovering ways to use magic in a controlled manner over time. And the thing I disagree with here is that templars are the solution, I would say that mages are the solution to solving the problem of demons while templars are simply a form of adaptation that society took. Both would be required to actually solve the problem, since if they worked together to maintain a more controlled exploration of the fade and where mages get their power. If they had done something like this, Solas would likely wake up to a different world and hold a different opinion about it. Solas is also a huge representative of mages, showing how there is progress in the chaos or magic, as he liberated an entire society through being smart, and he hates the world he woke up in because perhaps he sees that the world is so close to solving it's own problems but they don't because they are stuck in adapting to the world instead of changing it. And in this role, I would say that mages are able to change it, they have a lot of qualities that with the help of templars as well can be refined in order to help people and save people. They don't have to just represent a danger to the world, but rather be a great asset. And they already are since the beginning of the story, which is why they should earn some rights like visiting their families and being listened to when it comes to their specialty. I would argue that the world, and even templars wouldn't be where they are and have their powers without mages and their progress and exploration. Bellara also seems like she might be an antithesis to Solas and represent even more clearly the important role of a brave explorer in a dangerous world.
It's not "since time immemorial" though. Solas definitely remembers it, as do any of the other Evanuris, plus all the ancient elves in the Arlathan forest. It was before when humans arrived on Thedas (-3100 Ancient Age) but still remembered.
Thus far ive sided with the mages consistently. However with us now going to northern Thedas i can see that changing easily depending on who the mages and templars in the conflict are.
The whole problem with the “circles and templars are so necessary because of demons” Is that we have hundreds of years of life in human and elven societies where demons are patently NOT running rampant. This doesn’t mean that those societies were “good”, of course, just that they were clearly capable of keeping demons contained even without the presence of templars or circle system. If anything the actions of the templars and the way the circle system is organized are shown to be, in many cases, the cause of people giving themselves to demons or blood magic (which are really not the same thing).
Issue with this is that we have no idea. Maybe they had a far more repressive system than the Templars to keep things under control. We literally don't know. So you're making massive assumptions based on nothing.
There is literally a whole questline in Origins centered around a pride abomination leading people to their deaths across Ferelden, for decades, and its base of operations was in Denerim. Also the original mages and gods of the elven pantheon were all abominations that enslaved people.
@@jarlwilliam9932 not talking about those societies being inherently good, but they were stable for hundreds and thousands of years, containing demonic influence without the need of the circle or the templars. Place the templars are enslavers too, strictly speaking.
@@stephenjenkins7971 we know that those repressive systems weren't relevant enough to be brought upon in the game, in a period where the debate about mages and what to do about them is one of the focal points. Place we have Dalish keepers practically free, and the dalish aren't falling victim to unending waves of possessed dalish apprentices. Tevinter might be mages in the current setting at their worst, and though their society does have monstrous aspects, and is pretty free with blood magic it is not about to fell prey to demonic invasions, and most citizen live absolutely normal lives.
@@giovannipanzeri6431 The main issue never was demonic possession, it's public safety. Mages are an inherent danger to everyone based on the fact they can summon a fireball at their will. Isn't it fair to say that people that can burn other people whenever they want should be contained in a way?
The Templar order is broken, but not evil. Neither of them are “evil”. We see in Tevinter and through Inquisition, DA1 and 2; that “absolute power corrupts absolutely” and the mages of Tevinter prove to be incredibly evil and ruthless. Lord Luvius Erremond of Viranthium & Corepheus serve as examples of what a powerful and evil mage can accomplish, significantly more so than just a guy with an army. The Templars are a broken order which is corrupt from the top down, it would need to be completely overhauled for any chance of having it survive inquisition, but the mages present such an omnipresent danger to every non-magic user if one decides to one day become evil. Plus the mages aligning with Tevinter under any circumstances is treason at best and an admission of practicing blood magic. The Templars would need to be overhauled from the ground up, as the Inquisitor, I disband the order when I side with the Templars, but similarly, the Mages have proven to be completely untrustworthy in contrast to the thuggish brutality of the Templar Order, the Templar’s are generally more honest and upfront .
I prefer to think of it as more "absolute power is the great revealer", rather then corrupter. There are things people won't do, not because they are morally wrong, but because there would be consequences they don't want to face if they do, but if you take away the threat of consequences, or at least the perception thereof, as power is wont to give, then those people would end up doing those morally wrong thing. It only seems to us on the outside that they became corrupted, when really, that's who they've always been, just unable to indulge due to lacking the power to avoid the backlash.
i love how most DA players are choosing based on "your feeling clouding your judgement" siding with mage just feels right even though we know that templars aren't that unreasonable also can't forget that part when people rather choosing harrowmont over belen simply because he's nicer, even though he's suck as a king
If the mages want to reform then I think they should do what the Empire does in Warhammer Fantasy grant mages liscense to use magic almost like an IRL job liscense.
The only way I see the Templars and mages co-existing is if there are MAGES who overseer the Templars and execute abusers with full authority just as templars execute possesed or abusing mages
@22:15 The fact that they were founded for the purpose of containing magic does not automatically make them experts in stuff like world-ending holes in the sky belching-out demons. To address that, you have to understand magic, which Templars know f**k-all about. They can interrupt and dispel minor spells, but even the magic that can be done by an Abomination is frequently beyond them. MAYBE if they had stuck more faithfully to their origins, they WOULD be useful. But the Templar order as it exists in 9.40 Dragon? Useless aside from serving as part of the Inquisition's army. And with all the information Leliana is able to provide you, the Inquisitor knows that, even if they wouldn't necessarily have known it before the events of the game
This was so much fun. I was listening to this while making dinner. My brother and I decided to finish listening while we ate. Personally I am siding with the templars. I feel like both factions are f’ed up, but the templars are easier to reform. The mages are the ones slitting throats and summoning demons.
I like to get to the real roots of the issues. The problem made of mages is they can become abominations. How does that happen? Because they are possessed by demons. How does that happen? We have further found out that the line between demon and spirit is very thin, and spirits are natural. The question then becomes what turns a spirit into a demon, and it is at that point that templar actions look much more negative. Opressing so many people in a single place, with an expressive fear of spirits, is just going to create demons, and then line up mages to become possessed. We have seen elsewhere in Thedas that mages can be given much more freedom, and avoid being lined up into becoming possessed. Arguably, the biggest thing would be understanding what spirits are and avoiding having them turn into demons. Such that it was the shitty treatment of mages around Anders that twisted Justice inside Anders into Vengeance, and the Chantry itself actually held responsibility on that. If there was proper education around the spirits, the mages being abused would be less of a threat.
I have a problem with Gregoir's line as it seems like he doesn't count the mages as innocent folk of Ferelden, even those unpossessed whom serve no danger to the circle.
Meredith did nothing wrong. Meredith annulled the Circle in order to prevent a riot from Kirkwall's citizens. The Chantry was destroyed and innocent bystanders killed by magic. They would have been the target regardless. Siding with the templars was right to prevent a wider conflict from occurring. And regardless of who you side with, various blood mages and those giving in to demonic possession can be seen all throughout the final part of Act III. Kirkwall was downright plagued by bad mages. Even so, it is possible to spare mages who surrender. Inquisition's choice was also pretty easy. The mages were approached, and then they were found to have sold themselves into slavery. Pretty open and shut. The Inquisition could make its appeal to any mages in Redcliffe to abandon Fiona and join the Inquisition. Those who wanted were free to leave. Going for the templars after this is easily justified. Being informed of the trap Alexius planned to spring on the Herald also justified avoiding Redcliffe and going for the templars. Same with the news that Arl Teagan had gone to Denerim to get help from the crown. Let Fereldans deal with Ferelden's problems. And let the Inquisition deal with the Chantry's problems, namely the templars. As for Origins, this was outside the Mage/Templar War. It was an example of mages corrupting a Circle from the inside, and templars dealing with the situation as best they could. The right choice is to go in with a surgical strike, destroying the corrupt and saving the innocent. The problem with the Mage/Templar War is that it was glossed over and many finer points were skipped. Also, I think DA2's conclusion was far-fetched. Siding with mages could realistically result in a mage rebellion, but siding with the templars likely would not. The idea it happens either way is just lazy writing. They should have laid down more groundwork as to why a mage rebellion was possible either way. Or they should have had no rebellion if Hawke sided with templars, since the events of Inquisition are due more to what happens in Asunder rather than DA2 anyway. So have the rebellion arise from Asunder in either case.
Well ultimately I believe we should let solas destroy the veil and let everything go back as they were and then the mage templar dilemma will be over until then suppress people just because they had a better connection to the fade its cruel, as for the argument of being a danger I mean by looking to our world its the biggest evidence that we don't need magic to mess up the world or commit atrocities
A really good video however as it is opinion I feel I disagree, yes it is the good thing to do to retract the right of analment in DAO; however as you pointed out in your video and cullen points out we have no way of knowing how many are demons and the point of the circle is to stop all demons/mages from commiting harm. Plus it has litterally been days once you arrive and I honestly do not think many mages survived anyway (although more likely a game resctriction not displaying so many in the tower). So I think once you save the mages you should have to say to gregor I do not know if any of them are possed. Also all this started from one mage getting possed so this could not litterally happen again. On DA2, I have done both choices but given if the mage incharge of the circle turns to blood magic and that meradith is just nuts I do not feel it matters or that it should matter which one you choose. anders does this but he has been in contact with blood mages from the circle so I can see why the right would be used. Plus as you said, blood magic and demons are everywhere and your on mom is killed as a resault of one in a story line. I kinda feel like hawk 70% of the time would agree with the right unless maybe his sister is there and he wants to protect her. Other then that I just feel everything in DA2 just shows how bad it is when one the templars are not doing their jobs well (being too rough) and not stopping it early enough. And hawk is there to see it all tbh. Good video though and this is just my opinion, I have done every choice in these games and it always comes down to morals. Protect the weak or protect the sufferers. (civies, mages)
I am on the mages side. Templars are abusive, sure not all of them, but that is what they do. That is why a lot of mages go mad. They want to escape that life. Yes, mages should study and protect themselves of demons, but the method is not keeping them prisoners. I just dont get why people would be on the templars side knowing what we know in games. But yeah, I think mages have a better chance to close the magical gap in the sky lol. They know how it is created, they know how to close it.
Don’t forget that Templars are also Lyrium addicts and if they use too much Lyrium, their brain will turn into cheese. And if they stop using Lyrium for a while, they’ll go through withdrawal symptoms and possibly die.
"knowing what we know"? Really, have you heard of Magisters Sidereal or the Evanuris? ALL the big evil in the world of Thedas has been caused by mages.
I lost my family to an apostate mage, so I became a Templar. I'd invoke the Rite of Annulment on them all if I could! Unless I'm playing as a mage, then fvck the Templars.
Well in this case the mages are more in the right. Mages are dangerous, sure, but any schmuck with a sword can still go kill people. The tower circles were BAD places to be, since Templars largely saw mages as inhuman weapons. The instances of mages causing problems are almost exclusively tied to the treatment they received at the hands of Templars while in circles.
@@channel45853 The Templars are the private army if the Chantry. Yes the core if the problem IS the Chantry, but the Templars csn't be separated from that, they are part if the Chantry.
My current world state has Leliana divine, so mages got more freedom. But I also allied with the Templars, so all the loyal ones went on to become Seekers. I think that's the best, anti magic warriors without the lyrium requirement. Though let's be real, human nature means there will always be some idiot who ruins both sides for everybody lol
In my opinion you shouldn't side with anybody you should find a solution to the problem creatng a more just society for everybody and there is a hint of this in Inquisition in the issue of choosing the new divine in what Cassandra and Leliana say they would do if they were chosen. So It would be great if this issue is addressed in the new game. By the way I love DA and especially Inquisition.
@@moodus9104 there's always a solution if people are reasonable instead of only thinking about money and power and history (and unfortunately even the present) is full of terrible examples but if we have democracies now it's because at one point a lot of people understood it was the best system for everybody so it's possible and you can write a story where it's possible.
@@littlemouse7066 yeah but you need to Understand that education is very important because if the People dont learn they will Doom the Mages Back to the Circle. And the circle is No solution anymore. They should Life Like the other people of thedas because they are
DA2 I sided with the mages until… I HAD TO FIGHT THROUGH A WAVE OF DEMON POSSESSED MAGES AND BLOOD MAGES THEN THE FIRST ENCHANTER GOES “Meh if you can’t beat em join em!” AND BECAME A CORPSE MONSTER
I've always sided with the mages, because pretty much every problem a mage causes is directly or indirectly caused by the oppression the templars keep them under. Most mages you run into that have turned to criminals have done so because they have no other options while running for their lives from templars. Their options are literally submit to living with a sword hanging over your head and anyone can drop on a whim just because they didnt like your tone, or a life on the run from people who will murder you because the possibility you could hurt them. The whole idea is so hypocritical, the fact they commit atrocities on the hypothetical atrocities their victims could be causing. They arent preventing harm, they are just making sure its the "other" group that is being harmed. Add in that so many templars are just corrupt as all shit and many of them are cruel to mages just because they enjoy hurting people, oh and lets not forget the dosing their men with addicting magic crystals to force their loyalty on pain of lethal withdrawal symptoms, and I could never stomach them.
What you described only happens with the Chanty/Mages in the South. IE: Fereldan and Orlais. All the stuff about it being "necessary" for the Templars to be that brutal and repressive is put to falsehood when you look at Tevinter, Neverra, and other places in the North: Mages are respected, not feared, given positions of honor (Magisters, Mortalitasi) and police themselves. They have way, way lower incidents of possession than the South does. The southern Chantry way (what you described) is basically the worst of all possible ways to handle things and inherently a powderkeg waiting to explode.
Hey man! I appreciate the comment and I totally get what you’re saying - but as I’ve said before, any argument that points to Tevinter as the example for what “right” looks like just doesn’t work for me. The south has significantly more reported instances of possession, sure. But there are one or two more instances of world-ending calamity caused directly by the unchecked power of mages coming from Tevinter & friends, so… At the end of the day I think the crux of the “Tevinter has it right” people’s argument is this - in Tevinter, mages are educated more about what demons are and how to resist them. And this is exactly what I feel the Chantry should do as far as reform goes. To that end, we are in complete agreement. But unchecked power doesn’t work for me (or Thedas, as proven in game) and neither does oppression and slavery. As I said in the video, I think Thedas absolutely needs the south’s Circles for incredibly obvious reasons, but mages (and Templars alike) need to be educated more on the nature and resistance of demons.
I do lean into supporting the Templars more in principle. but the game forces you to side with the mages out of common decency and mortality. As Magic in this universe is a real danger to the people and even Mages themselves, the demons are a real danger and can very quickly take over and then become a danger to everyone. But I'm not blind, the Templars can be too heavy handed and I think need to become more close to the Mages and remember they're still people, people you are tasked to protect and help. I think The Templars need to revise their methods and become more like a support group for the mages than just their wardens. The Templars need a rebuild back into a noble order who serve to protect and guide. I will say though, I always save the circle. I side with the mages in 2 because they are innocent and I ain't going to let some drugged lady do what she wants to innocent people.
The mages invite demons into thaedus any moment they are pressed or cornered. Bad guy by default. We would have purged them or currently be their slaves in our world if it were the case
Hmmm.... I'm more on the Mages side. The Dalish keep the numbers of mages low and that seemingly works to combat abominations. Although I think the best solution would be to allow mages to self-govern. Mages are less likely to create boogymen out themselves when they can empathize with and have a better understanding of a fledgling mage. A lot of the temptation mages succumb to is due to the oppression they face. Also as far as the templars go I think its bad to have people addicted to drugs. Most of the time they dont know that they will have to take lyrium to be a templar let alone how addictive it will be and the mind deteriorating effects the drug has long term. So yeah mages and this is for you. 🍆
I'm deffo on the mages side, the mages can police themselves, the Templars, especially with lyrium and religious fervour, are crazy oppressor's and can't help being big fascist cops, based anders frfr and based divine Leliana for dissolving the circle and templar order
There is no discussion whatsoever one group is hunted prisoned tranquil even unalived by another just for being born this way. And its not easy to possess mage just many mages does because they feel hopeless are cornered didnt even learned magic yet and someone already wanna slay them for being born so they allow demon to defend them because demon says “i will deal with them for you” not saying i run your body from now . So if people wasn’t dickheads possessions wouldn’t even happen. Chantry lies as always to justify their sick actions. (They corner mage making him hopeless and take that possessions prove ? Because he was scared and would do anything fighting for his own life. Tahts manipulation not prove) Oh and to deal with mages because its so bad they have to use magic themselves taking lyrium. (I hate u because u have magic i dont have so i will use it anyway and make ur slave for my cause because u cannot control yourself but i can control all of you and my addiction i am smarter than all of you even when addicted) templars logic is invalid. And why was circle overrun by demons ? After jovans escape gregor was mad and want to tranquill most of mages. And jovan escape just because he know they will tranquil him. Mages were cornered and threatened and not TRAINED (just indoctrinated in tower)so cannot defend themselves. Perfect example of templars manipulation create problem and then pretend they are the only ones who can solve it. If they dont threat mages possesions wont happen. Even if they allow them to learn magic they could easily win with templars but templars fear magic dont let mages learn if mage learn anyway its tranquill . So in moment when they are threatened to be tranquill or unalive and not being able to defend themselves of course they will allow demon in because demon promised (lied) to deal with a thread witch is templar who abused that mage his entire life in circle. And i 100% support anders . Meridith is getting mad noone is dealing with her. ( anders is from origins he meet grey warden he knows what templars did he recognise pattern is concerned of kirkwalls mages fate) chantry does nothing petrice is messing behind divines back even chantry is corrupted now! . Vicount does nothing with qun. Anders knows even hawk wont help cannot help . Anders sees injustice and he think he still have spirit of justice in him hoping that spirit will bring justice ( another hopeless mage tricked by demon only because people are assholes and noone is fixing that hopes to do good with spirit of justice - well demon tricked him but still anders controlled demon untill he felt hopeless because of templars being threat to mages. Anders had clinic was healing people refuges after blight and templars still was hunting him and he did nothing . He just snapped seeing meredith is out of mind noone will help his fellow mages not even hawk. He dodged that to start mages rebelion to destroy circles so no other mage would be ever hunted and controlled. And if not strong emotions caused by meredith he wouldnt let demon in and could even help mages without killing innocents. Anyway best quote is from leliana when u ask her why she sides with mages “because i also can kill mages yet i am free and they are not”
Mages for me tbh. Templars had their chance and failed miserably. Chantry did too failed miserably. Inquisition will reform everything and mages will have rules but be better from there on out
I choose to side with the Templars. Because they look cooler ☝️ And only the weakest become Red Templars ☝️ Mages are just too risky, they can secretly be blood mages.
There is a society in Tevinter that is deplorable sure, but well maintained with laws and a social system in place. If they can do so with their mages free so can everyone else. Nevarra, the Dalish, and Grey Wardens have systems in place that also maintain order. Orlais has "Circles" like Viviene's that are nothing like other Circles in Thedas. Mages can live almost completely free there too. No chaos in the Dalish, Tevinter, or Orlais to be found. There is corruption but thats everywhere. Mages do not need to be shacked and oppressed, they need to be educated. Moreover mages who are educated will not fall prey to a demon without the mages permission. Its completely misleading to say that a mage can be possessed at any point like the video pointed out. When a demon possesses a trained mage it is in fact rare, and almost always that mages choice to have it happen. Templars need to be among the normal people as a peacekeeping force and Mages need to be forced to attend the Circle until they prove themselves to not be a danger to themselves or others, the Circles should be governed only by Mages. The system in place needs to be changed to that extent so that another mage rebellion wont be necessary. Anything shy of this is just a temporary measure until another rebellion comes about.
@moonwitch616 This read, to me, as confrontational and accusatory and then it ends with, “but I completely, 100% agree with you and how you think the Circles should run”, lol. Dragon Age is wild 😂 I would like to clarify - no chaos in Tevinter? 🧐 are you familiar with the worldwide cataclysm that happened as a direct result of unchecked mage power in Tevinter? I mean, I guess you’re right in that the chaos of the Blight moved out of Tevinter and toward the rest of the world, in which case - did a Tevinter magister write this comment? 😂 For the Dalish, we have Merrill, a Dalish blood mage, whose actions would have resulted in absolute catastrophe if not for Hawke’s intervention, with the guarantee of at least one mage being possessed by a pride demon with or without Hawke. Without the assistance of a plot armored protagonist, this would have been a huge deal. I’d definitely qualify that (and her, lol) as chaos For the Grey Wardens, the systems they had in place allowed for the summoning of a literal demon army by way of blood magic… And I know absolutely nothing about Nevarra other than some weird death magic stuff happens there due to some unorthodox beliefs around spirits, so here’s to hoping The Veilguard sheds some light on their society and how they treat magic! Lastly - “…it is in fact rare” meaning it does happen, and “…almost always that mages choice” meaning sometimes it isn’t. And that’s exactly my issue with total mage freedom - all it takes is one time for somebody to do something stupid and we have the Blights or an entire city destroyed. Regardless, like I said - we’re in complete agreement on reform for the Circles. Separation from the Chantry and actual, in-depth education on the risks and results of possession rather than, “go pass this test. We’re not gonna tell you what it is though. Good luck with the demon lmao” are the two biggest pieces of it for me.
@@10pointsofslashing While I do with some of what you discussed to me it seemed as though your statements in the video were more absolutes. You said a mage can be possessed at any point as if to speak to their constant state of danger rather than adding the context of trained vs untrained mages and how often possession comes up. As for your comment itself Meril, some of the Grey Wardens, and some magisters/the Venatori are each isolated incidents that can be referenced but not be taken as a rule of thumb. I see no reason to mention any of them without also mentioning there is more evidence that these systems work under normal circumstances. They have worked for years. Especially in Orlais and Navarra. The fact that the Magisters allegedly brought brought the blight to Thedas is likely about to change in Veilguard, and it's better served as a cautionary tale rather than damming evidence weighed against modern day mages/events given that those responsible should be long dead. That event is well and truly irreversible and not at all connected to the modern conflict except to say that when magic is abused the result can be disastrous. Which everyone is well aware of. It's more relevant and progressive to the modern Era to cite the abuse, oppression, and fear mongering of the Chantry and how this has led directly to further abuses of magic. Magic won't go away it's here to stay no matter what course of action is taken so I feel like it's better to focus on how magic is received and spoken on by the public and the Chantry rather than the mages and their individual trespasses with magic. Once we have a plan in place for The Templars and Chantry to no longer have their boot on the necks of mages we can look at what mages have done through history to see what works and what doesnt.
@@10pointsofslashing I also wanted to say im not intending to come across as accusatory but what seems to be happening with the things you say come across to me as misinformation. For another example you also say that every time a mage casts a spell a demon could posses them. I have never come across this in the lore, and playing mages or seeing mages in game suggests that to not be true at all. Solas in Inquisition confirms this to not be true based on the information he gives to us about spirts and demons. The ONLY times I can think of where a demon possessed a mage without consent in the games is in Origins where the Circle falls to demons getting the upper hand over everyone as a result of the Harrowing. Once one mage failed he was able to then forcefully insert demons into others. The other time is when basically the same thing happens in Inquisition. The games have never displayed or spoken of mages being constantly or persistently stalked and tempted by demons each time they cast a spell even with the use of Blood Magic. Now if it says this in a codex somewhere ill be willing to concede im wrong but that codex would still be in direct opposition to what we see in game, and would come across more so as the devs not being able to agree on what to do with magic as the vast majority of magic in Dragon Age is used utterly consequence free. I actually really appreciate your work as a whole your video is very interesting and im grateful that you took the time to debate this with me in any case.
That was super cool of you to say - thank you so much! I appreciate your comments and insight too! The funny thing is, even if you are being accusatory it's totally cool, lol. This is a super deep debate in the Dragon Age world because it deals with so many serious real-world issues and emotions. Everybody is allowed to have an equally serious and nigh unshakeable opinion about it, IMO. Part of what makes us all love this franchise so much! So, no worries at all. I am sorry too, I'm just honestly super confused about this entire interaction, lol. We're both arguing for the same thing, we're just arguing about why we're arguing for it 😂 And I'm kind of lost - your first point was that these other societies all have systems in place that maintain order. I then gave examples of how those systems don't maintain order and you essentially responded with, "those are the exception, not the rule" - which is, again, my entire point...there are exceptions and that's why the systems don't work. It's like somebody goes out and murders a family, is tried for it, and the defense says, "well, you can't take this as a rule of thumb. Most of the time, he's not murdering people." The judge doesn't just go, "oh, word? All good, then!" And finally, I think you might be hyper-fixating on the verbiage there - the lore does indeed tell us that demons possess mages because of their mutual connection to the Fade. I'm not saying demons are chomping at the bit and sit around in the Fade waiting for mages to cast spells. Thousands of demons don't enter a que for possession every time somebody gets up in the middle of the night to pee and magically lights a candle. The mage does have to consent and I know that - what I'm trying to communicate is that that could very well happen at any point in time. Demons can, as we've seen so far, reach out at any point in time and manipulate otherwise strong-willed people into possession. It's terrifying, and that's what I urge people to consider.
@@10pointsofslashing I agree. It is a lot of fun to debate these things. It makes being part of the Fandom more enjoyable. Im really enjoying this discussion with you. My points were that earlier you said that "mages can be possessed at any time" and "when a mage casts a spell they can be possessed". Both statements taken at face value are false because what happens for the vast majority of the time a demon is targeting a mage they resist as per their training Circle or no Circle, traditional or non traditional they do successfully resist that is a fact. If your statements are to be taken literally there would be chaos everywhere you look. You didnt provide context or nuance to either statement which is why I find them misleading. Yes im hyper-fixating on the verbiage because you leave the viewers with no choice. Both of those statements mislead without context. I also understand where we disagree the most. Its more wrong in my opinion to draw attention away from the everyday caging, suffering, discrimination, disrespect, and de-humanization of mages in Fereldon by bringing up idiotic accidents like Meril and the willfully evil acts of Tevinter Magisters/Venatori. By continuing to speak to magics potential danger without highlighting the rarity of these circumstances (which is what you were doing in the video) it seeks to garner sympathy for a pro templar stance when the fact of the matter is that magic isnt going anywhere and that Thedas needs to learn better ways to adapt on the mage and templar side. There will always be the possibility of a misuse of power in every society magic is irrelevant to that fact. Which is why no mater what Thedas chooses to do about magic there will always be catastrophes because of it. Its like trying to plug all the volcanos on earth when all you are doing is adding pressure to the inevitable eruption. When you are talking about rights to freedom of choice in life these abuses of power dont matter as much in comparison. Mages deserve to be able to govern themselves without ANY oversight in my opinion. If they make it work as shown in people/places like Nevarra, Orlais, the Dalish, and in Tevinter great. If they fail horribly and destroy themselves thats unfortunate but at least they were given the choice and freedom to fail. A pro templar stance diminishes/confuses that core issue minimizing the fact that mages should never have been be treated as they have been. It will only lead to greater acts of war which as we have seen will cause the greater loss of life and suffering. I dont see the value in making a comparison of what a judge would do when sentencing a criminal to actively drawing attention away from the plight of mages and magic on Thedas. The reason your comparison doesnt work in my opinion is that any given judge will be more intelligent and mature than anyone in Thedas. They have a great deal of growing up/maturing to do to even come close to our societal standards, let alone the standards a judge should have. Saying "most of the time hes not murdering people" as you put it isnt the same as me saying instances of magical misuse and demonic possession are rare. Because we are talking about the consequences of the horrific abuse of a group of people for generations which is completely unnecessary given my examples listed from the more stable places in Thedas. It serves no purpose in my opinion to state the fact that the fact the the Blight exists because of the abuse magic when talking about generational de-humanization of mages. It only obscures the fact that Thedas needs to be having a different conversation entirely that conversation being: How can we coexist with mages, magic, and demons more efficiently? Because none of those things will go away anytime soon no matter how bad/scary magic is made to seem.
So i watched it and you are very VERY biast about the mages because you See them as Bad through your conotation. And i have a lot to add. First Greagoir IS NOT a good Man he dont see mages as a part of Ferelden People. They are secound-class Humans. He simply dont care about the mages in any ways ! For example about Jowan! I Love him great character. He just wanted to flee and be Happy with Lily and needed to use Blood Magic to escape because He dont wants to be lobotomiced. Now da:2 . I dont think there was a another way for anders or any mages. Like we saw in Inquisition If there is a Rebellion the templers Kills all and pretend it never happend. This would be done Here too and furthermore didnt you See that the Most Blood Magic was caused BY the templers the 3 at the end of the Game or Hack EVEN Orsino! He used Blood Magic because he saw NO OTHER choice and i Understand that! And Like anders did nothing wrong because the People saw Everything now they can't hide what's happening ! I am for the mages because they can life WITHOUT Templers Like in anccient time
As a new DA player. I watched this mainly as catch up for TVG. I tried inquisition a while back but the style wasn't for me. Looking forward to diving into TVG though. That's Looking more like my style. Thanks mate, great video.
Had fate worked out differently, I might have ended up blocking this channel due to the Skyrim video. Literally can't stand Skyrim anymore 😂 it and Bethesda need to be swept under the rug and forgotten
Just look at it like this. The mages are the Palestinians. They are constantly watched by the IDF(Templars) and essentially just want to be free. Hope this dumbs it down for you.
I like to think they're more like zios. Think about it, they hold tremendous power (Magic/Western backing), they constantly cause tremendous harm (Any blood magic incident/Anytime Israel bombs an arab country) and anytime we try to hold them accountable, people like You (Mage simps/Zionists) make the excuse that they're the victmins and say there's no other way to deal with the problem except killing more people. The truth needs to be said.
The fact that there is no clear good guy or bad guy between the Mages and the Templars is what makes the conflict so good.
Even over a decade later, I still couldn’t tell you if I made the right choice in Kirkwall
EXACTLY. Nuance, grey area, a lack of clarity in “right” and “wrong” - that’s Dragon Age, baby. That’s what makes this so fucking compelling. Thank you for the comment 🤙
this is why i love Dragon Age because there was no clear good guy in this... Unhinged mages can cause the destruction of a country meanwhile Templars can be cruel to mages.
It’s sort of like Fire Emblem Three Houses seeing how all Four sides, mainly the Empire, Kingdom, Alliance and Church are both right and wrong in how they want to improve Fodlan’s system or abolish the many laws and rules that have been plaguing Fodlan for years.
that's what an intelligent story does no clear black and white and in Inquisition you have another important issue which is how you use your power the Inquisitor has an enormous power people kneel in front of him/her what do you do? you use it for the common good or for yourself? Inquisition has even more deep themes like religion and the way you live religion do you believe do you not believe are you open minded are you a fanatic? heavy stuff.
Is Dragon Age: Redemption good ???? 26:23
Its not that the Templars are "cruel" to mages, mages are a second class
The issue is how do people cope with feeling lesser. The templars are mage "overseers" mages are powerful why is that a problem, why do they need to be shipped off to circles and limited. Magic is power it dosent recognize good or evil it simply exists what its used for is up to the individual. Treating said individuals with said power like second class citizens ready to be purged if they become to rowdy is mad problematic. Treating mages poorly and creating that trauma makes mages more susceptible to possesion
@@p.fish_63 You are wrong. Magic in Dragon Age universe is evil as it comes from the veil and most of the times is fueled by spirits and demons there. Sooner or later any mage gets corrupted and either possessed by a demon or learn blood magic and control people. The whole Tevinter Imperium is what happens when mages are not overseen by templars and the chauntry - slavery and human control and mages ruling over everyone and everyone else being second class citizens.
To tell the truth in Dragon Age world mages are really like walking ticking time bombs. They are a danger to everyone and the worst part is - no one knows when they will become possessed or learn blood magic. Only the blight and dragons are more dangerous than mages in Dragon Age universe. Your friend can be a mage and you have good fun and drinks in saturday but on sunday he gets possessed and destroys your entire village.
Dragon Age universe magic is not like D&D magic.
Man I wish more people would give Vivienne the flowers she deserves, she really explores the prespective of a mage who is pro circle in conspect. She recognizes that while she has mastery of her magic, not everyone who has magic can be trusted with freedom to use it ethically or safely or is responsible / talented enough to do so. She realize that the current ways are broken but wants to bring back a new status quo for the protection of the common folk but also for the betterment of mages.
Most folks consider her a chantry boot licker who acts like she is better than the other mages. I see her a someone who is socially minded and wants what's best for everyone mages included.
Magic IS dangerous, socitity needs there to be a hand to hold those born with it and guide them.
Folks act like we see Templars ONLY doing the hanious shit to mages they imprison but a LOT of the mages we meet over the series prove the dangers of magic and how helpless the common folk are against it.
I was very pro mage until Hawkes mother in DA2 that made me honestly sit back and become pro templar, with the hopes that things could be improved for mages. It's a imperfect situation with no correct answers.
Finally, a fellow Vivienne apologist. It's hard out there for people like us, isn't it?
I completely agree with everything you said. Most people see Vivienne strictly on a surface level and write her off, but I'd urge anybody to put aside their emotions on either persuasion and actually listen carefully to what Vivienne says. She's quite grounded and pragmatic whilst mostly everyone else is idealistic and starry-eyed about how they WISH things were, while Viv sees everything for what it is and works with it. I think that shows an admirable level of wisdom, I feel like Vivienne was a character who usually saw the bigger picture.
@LadyDecember We aren't common for sure! I just really apperiate that a series that has such a well written social issue that has both in and out of game polarization, they wrote a fantastic moderate.
It would of been so easy to write her as strictly pro mage or pro chantry but she is neither and both at the same time.
A lot of people have broken down DAI's themes to be about power and I love that Vivienne's character is reflect that in multiple ways.
She has a position of high esteem and considerable political power. Yet much of her character is based around re-establishing a status-quo that would be a hindrance to most mages power. Though her goals are to ensure that overtime they have more personal freedoms and power, just not unchecked.
@7:59 Also, don't forget: long-term lyrium usage turns your brain into swiss cheese. So given that once a Templar has completed their training, their abilities can be used in the absence of lyrium (as we find out from Alistair in Dragon age Origins, and which is considered by the fact that any Warrior character in Origins can use Templar abilities, without ever ingesting lyrium, and including Dwarves who are immune to lyrium), why does the Chantry still have them use it? Because it's incredibly addictive, so any Templar who DOES get ideas about oh say reforming how they operate has plenty of motivation to keep their mouth shut, or else suffer withdrawal symptoms similar to heroin withdrawal (i.e. you want nothing in the world more than to die so the withdrawal pain will finally stop)
So the Chantry is at fault for both the oppression of Mages and Templars being addicted to Lyrium?
That is correct
Is the Gameplay even Lore Accurate in this Franchise?
Like even something that is considered magical ability is vague.
I am a warrior but I could also summon fire from the ground I shattered.
@@anthonydavix I've never seen a warrior ability that does that, if you're talking about failgaurd you should know that it isn't canon. and lorewise gameplay matches, if you talk to Allistar he'll tell you that Templars can use their abilities without the need for lyrium and that it "Just makes them stronger"
@@privateuser3726
I was talking about the warrior ability from Inquisition.
The branch of Earthquake attack that summons lava from the ground.
I agree that there needs to be some education for the mages to lower the risk of demon possession, but my biggest issue with the conflict is that the mages are treated as second-class citizens and therefore lose most of, if not all of, their rights once they are captured by templars and placed in a circle. If mages had the same social standing as the average citizen, then the templars would lose the right to treat them the way they do. There are clear references in some of the books (Asunder specifically) where the templars starve their prisoners (this happened to Cole and it's mentioned in DAI) and it's implied in that book that the tranquil, women especially, are raped (at least I think that last part is in the book, I read a lot of fan fiction). My biggest problem with the templars is that, with some minute exceptions, all the templars featured abuse their power and they're not held accountable. What the mages did when they rebelled was self-defense.
Exactly
Yup
Exactly, but it’s crazy how this fictional debate and position is understood by so many but then real life examples like the Palestinians defending their rights and freedom is such a controversial topic lol
mages are literally kidnapped in their childhood the moment they are discovered to be mages. It's not a complicated, morally ambiguous conflict at all. There needs to be oversight over mages and they need to be taught to control their powers, but not the way chantry does it.
What about Vivienne? She proves that some circles can be good
My only issue with siding with the Mages in Dragon Age 2 os the Orsino knew about the activities of Quentin (The Necromancer From Starkhaven who was butchering women for years to make a patchwork bride, his magnum opus being Hawke's Mother Leandra.) And Did nothing, he hide his research and did nothing. Beyond that there's the factor of which Sibling is in which faction. But I'm rambling.
At least you get to kill him
There was alot wrong with the city of Kirkwall. There were the Bonepits where the veil is thin from Tevinters throwing slaves off of cliffs, there's Coryphesus sleeping in his prison whispering like one of the old gods, and if you read the "Enigma of Kirkwall" it describes a massive blood magic ritual which might be linked to Hybrus (A greater pride demon hiding underneath the city)
Immediately sided with Meridith after finding that out
@18:04 My man, Meredith hadn't been in the right frame of mind to be the voice of reason for a LONG time before this- even before she started getting influenced by the Lyrium Idol. The Idol accelerated her madness and paranoia, definitely, but even before she was EVER affected by it, she was already absolutely batshit. I have been playing-through the Dragon Age series for going on 10 years now, and I'm pretty darn certain that if Meredith had never been influenced by the Lyrium Idol and Orsino had been like "execute that vile terrorist who just blew up the Chantry and killed a bunch of innocent people," Meredith STILL would have done the maniac thing and called for the Circle's annulment
To tell the truth in Dragon Age world mages are really like walking ticking time bombs. They are a danger to everyone and the worst part is - no one knows when they will become possessed or learn blood magic. Only the blight and dragons are more dangerous than mages in Dragon Age universe.
@7:04: Sadly, aside from Lothering in Dragon Age Origins, we pretty much never see Templars doing paladin s**t. They seem to prioritize the whole "smiting the wicked (possessed mages or even unruly mages) + being ready to smite the wicked at a moment's notice" over "protecting ordinary people", basically to the point that the latter gets forgotten about
Originally the templar order was dedicated to the reinforcement of the real world able to deny fade shenanigans only for the templar order to decay through reinforced religious doctrine through fear and were meant to cull powerful yet unstable/High risk of possession mages. Meanwhile the mages apostate or tower circle mages require for the most part to be backed into a corner to do extremely risky things. Side note while anders is possessed he is possessed by a spirit of justice which is being corrupted into ghost mage: spirit of vengeance.
You forgot the part where the mages in DA2 (the ones you can side with to protect from getting chopped by the Templars) start using blood magic and possession the second they are threatened, making Meredith’s whole rite of annulment plan legitimate 😒
I‘m playing DAO right now as a mage. After finishing the mage Tower i gotta say the whole „mages vs templars“ is not really there in the first game. It‘s pretty obvious that the templars are absolutly necessary since one mage, even by accident, can lead to a demon destroying the whole world. Also both faction leaders have respect for each other and kind of work together. As far as i understand the conflict gets bigger in the second game, because the templars act more tyrannical and cruel. What i‘m trying to get at is that originally they weren‘t antagonists and more like two symbiotic factions that could even be considered two sides of the same coin. I know many people think the rules for mages are too strict, but how could you possiby do anything differently?
Uh. I absolutelly disagree with DAO shoving the Templars to be avsolutelly necessary. If abything the Tower wuests shows how inept they are. But in geberal DAO fucused way less on this aspect of the lore. Abd ya could do it differently the Avvar abd Rivaini does it.
The reason Mages vs Templars gets bigger in tge second game is because that's the focus, for better or worse.
@ so you didn’t really provide any argument here, just stated your opinion.
We see in redcliffe what can happen when a a low power kid mage gets corrupted, a whole town at the brink of getting wiped out needing a plotarmor main character to save them.
In the broken circle we see what can happen when a powerful mage gets corrupted even under Templar surveillance. This event alone could have escalated into a catastrophe on the same level as the blight, maybe even worse. You’d probably say that the right of annulment is brutal, but again what if there wouldn’t be the overpowered protagonist? The Templars would have literally stopped a cataclysmic event from spreading beyond the tower.
In the second game, wich I’m playing right now, everything is dumbed down and pulled into extremes, mages turning into demons at the blink of an eye, just because they’re scared, Templars being sadistic, powerhungry and corrupt. In Origins the vast majority of Templars and mages were happy with their life and had a mutual understanding of the reality and necessity of the situation.
@@wingthomaux Uh. I just voiced my opinion no reasin to get pissy.....
In Redcluff the whole incident happened because the Circles are so terrible the mother rather hid the kid.
In the Tower, oh the Tower. Lets see what happens. The Templars, an antimagic elit squad who's one and only job is to deal with maleficar and abominations camp outside of the Tower, after they flead becazse a whole garisdon of them coukdn't do the one thing they exist for. Come the protag, who by lore, especially at this point, isn't more powerfull that elit trained Templars, clears house.
Sorry, but all this shows is how inefective Templars are, and how, and how a green as grass fresh Warden recruit, who has no antimagic training, is more effective.
My man, Kinlocj Hold purposefully baits apprentices to do bloodmagic as a test of character, and they put people in year long solitary confinenent. Cullen also talk abouth how a good number of Templars discuss killing mages gleefully. It's nit a good place, it's just lightly less in your face.
@@i.cs.z Uh. I wasn’t being pissy at all, just stated that you didn’t really provide any argument.
So about redcliffe you just ignore what happened and blame the "system“ for bad individual choices. You use a circular argument, saying that keeping mages under control is bad and that’s why it happened, but if the "system“ wouldn’t keep mages under surveillance, it would have happened anyways since the boy would also still be there.
On the tower you act like the Templars have an edge on mages in battle, but they don’t. They have specific training and snort Lyrium to have any chance against magic user, since normally they would easily wipe the floor with any warrior. So the Templars barely even the playing field, but still have to act super careful to not let corruption spread. This is all established in the mage origins, where the Templars are literally so afraid of one single mage getting corrupted in the harrowing that they would kill them only if they’ve taken too long.
And a acting like the warden isn’t an overpowered, plot armor wearing main character is just silly.
I think you oversimplify the situations on purpose to keep villainizing the Templars and victimizing the "poor mages who just want to be free 🥹“. In a way it seems like you adopted DA2s sense of morality and conflict, maybe you played it first. In DAO there are bad people in every faction, but like in reality most people just want a peaceful life, wich means understanding the inherit danger you as a mage posses for the other people and as a Templar means controlling that danger as good as possible while giving the mages as much freedom as possible, wich they do in the circle. It’s not like the Templars have a better lifestyle or whatever than the mages, they basically just stand guard while the mages do research, science, practice Magic, echantments, etc.
I think you’re missing out with that narrow viewpoint, but hey you probably didn’t even read until here, so byee.
@wingthomaux You were pissy. And expressing an opinion doesn't need an argument. This wasn't an argument till you made it one.
No I don't ignore it, but the whole fiasco was the system's fault. You are very prone to go "but dangerous" to ignore how messed up the whole system is. And no, if the Circle system wasn't there, mages wouldn't be segregated, and it would have been easyer to find someone who tutirs the kid.
You subscribe to the circulating argument that the conflict is nuanced and grey because it says so, ignoring lot of the actual text abd presrntstion if the game. And no, actually I base the morality of the conflict mostly on DAO, and DA2 wasn't my first game. I think DA2 actually tried and failed to make Templars seem more neccesary.
Yes Templars have an edge. No, acting like the protag, in lore is more OP at that point, because plot armour ui silly. In lore you are a regular warrior/ rouge/ mage at that point. The Templars, based on lore should be more powerfull than you. You are not OP, the Templars are weirdly underpiwered, actually.
I think you are clinging to the premise a bit too much. And fail to accept that yes, unfortunatelly, in text the conflict isn't as grey by far as intended. And unlike you I read the ehole of your argument. Something I doubt you did for me.
One more thing for the Templars. I think the conflict is actually more like Chantry vs Mages, and the Templars are a private military branch of the Chantry. The Templars are still fucked over by the Chantry, but the mages are fucked over by both.
You most likely didn't read this, so have a good day!
Recently found your channel and have been LOVING your videos. They're exactly what ive been looking for and you present everything so well. Keep up your amazing work!
Hey, thank you so much! That means the world to me 😭 -SJ
Finding out Orsino Helped Mothers killer was a reason why I sided against him
And then became worse than him and the guy who killed your mom by killing a lot more innocents out of spite.
Preach
@@channel45853well given that Orsino and the other circle mages seemed to know alot about blood magic when push came to shove I don't think there were that many innocents. But that is the bane of the mages in DA 2 damned if they do and dead if they don't
@@channel45853Innocents? In the Kirkwall Circle? Don’t make me laugh!
The problem with The Mage v. Templar conflicts is that every major problem in all the games were caused by mages and magic abuse.
Yet, ever attempt to control mages is ultimately for the worst
It’s almost like Thedas is an inherently magical place and any attempt to quarantine or contain magic is doomed to fail…
Were caused by magic abuse* That's it. Think why. People here gave you some hints.
I like how everyone ignores the fact that is very clear that mages in control is bad in these games. With oppression and slaving being a main stay in such a culture. Elves before the veil, tevintar in both old and new(new tevintar was like every else with circles before mages where free and it turn into what is today). Also mages made the dark spawn when they where in charge so it not like mage society lead to anywhere good. I don’t think mages should mistreat but they sure shit shouldn’t be in charge of anything.
which was caused by oppression of mages and magic use. And around and around we go
The way the templars were written in 2 was awful. Last second asspull of "oh red lyrium made them craaaaaazy". If the templars had some more nuance it could have been a much more interesting moral dilemma. In DA1, you have to grapple with the potential of killing innocent people to protect civilians, or taking the risk because you have hope that some mages are still sane. The templars make sense in world. In d&d, a first level wizard can cast charm person and control a person to a degree that is terrifying. Magic is scary, and when theres the potential for a mage to get bodyjacked by demons on top of all the power they have, most people would attempt to exterminate them.
Just like with mass effect, its a game that has an amazing first game, then got ruined after being under the filthy paws of EA.
I mostly side with Mages since they‘ve been oppressed the same way the Elves were oppressed. Sure Mages run the risk of demonic possession, but they should learn how to control their powers and not give into any thing a demon does to tempt them. Plus Templars have a Lyrium addiction problem and if they consume too much of it, their brains would turn into cheese. Meaning that they wouldn’t be the best guards against demonic threats since they would spend most of their time inhaling Lyrium for days on end.
@9:46 If the phrasing of "get whatever you want from them" creeps you out: yes it includes exactly what you're worrying it includes, with alarming frequency
@18:33 the reason there is so much blood magic popping-up being used by mages in Kirkwall, the high rate of mages being possessed by demons, the ridiculously-high number of mages who die during their Harrowings, and the high number of demons encountered throughout Dragon Age 2 all stem from the same source: the Veil is unusually-thin in Kirkwall, and the place where it is thinnest is The Gallows, i.e. WHERE THE CIRCLE IS. They literally could not have set the mages up to fail harder if they were deliberately trying to!
See the Dragon Age Wiki's articles on The Band of Three and The Enigma of Kirkwall to learn more
exactly. Kirkwall used to be centre of slave trade, pumped with Tevinter blood magic. They are still keeping the slave statues as a nice reminder and the place where the Circle si located is still called Gallows ... Kirkwall was showing you the extreme enhanced version of the mage templar conflict, the good and bad mages, the good and bad templars. It is one of the reasons I love DAII.
It's interesting because the Mages are mostly chill but just one renegade mage can bring about massive suffering. So there's good arguments for the Templars as an organisation. In practice however, the fear and desperation Templars inflict as well as some just being genuinely tyrannical creates problems where there might never have been any in some cases. Mage Circles and Templars on equal footing makes the most sense. Templars should watch but not clamp their boots down so hard.
Personally think they are one reason why mages go mad. The way they treat mages, yes, it will mess mages up.
Mages are literally responsible for all the central conflicts in every game.
@@Tomatowormprince If you have a very uncharitable and inaccurate definition of responsibility.
@revanamell1791 Direct actions are an inaccurate definition of responsibility?
@@Tomatowormprince your definition is they were mages so all mages are responsible. It implies a hive mind.
@7:30 Templars are also picked for martial prowess and religious devotion, with stuff like intelligence, empathy, ability to read people, ability to keep themselves under control etc. etc.- all the things you would logically want in a protector of the innocent and force for all that is good- NOT CONSIDERED AT ALL
i think cullen says it best in inquisition if you take the templar skill tree and you tell them we can make the order better "a former templar and one that never took the order seem to be the ones who can see the problems"
Yes! I’ve been waiting for this! Please do a video on the Qunari and if the Qun is a good idea or not.
Hey, thank you so much for the comment! I am, in fact, working on the script for the next DA video as of this morning - and the working title is V_DragonAge_TheQun. I appreciate the suggestion very much! -SJ
@@10pointsofslashingI’m so glad I found this channel when I did, all of your content has been amazing so far and I look forward to what you’ll do in the future!
How can anybody think the Qun could be a good thing? A society where personal freedom doesn't exist where you are only a cog in the system and the state decides who you are and what you can do? It's the absolute opposite of democracy it's a nightmare.
@11:19 It should come as no surprise that an act as powerful as this has a history of abuse. There are AT LEAST 2 instances where it was used in a corrupt manner (as in: hundreds of people were slaughtered with no trial and no mercy, when they had done nothing wrong):
-----In 3.09 Towers (i.e. the 9th years of the third age, which was called the Towers Age,) the Circle of Magi of Antiva was annulled to cover-up the fact that a Knight-Captain (a senior templar) was a serial killer who had killed over a hundred mages..... for kicks
-----Then in 9.40 Dragon, the Circle of Magi of Rivain was annulled because they were allowing the mages to visit their families and interact with the outside world. Yep, that's right! If you (templars) decide to be decent humans so your internment camp isn't interment-campy-enough, and the Templar leadership finds out, they respond by extrajudicially murdering hundreds of innocent people who were posing 0 threat to anyone.
And that's not even touching the events in Kirkwall during Dragon Age 2; I'll wait and timestamp that with anything I want to add
@16:43 I am very glad that you acknowledge that Meredith is ALSO a shitstain for wanting to annual the Kirkwall Circle despite Anders having ZERO affiliation with them, thank you. But I want to add a couple things to really drive home how much Meredith deserves our (the fans') eternal hatred.
A Dragon Age II player might very well think that Meredith only called for the Rite of Annulment in response to Anders blowing up the Chantry of Kirkwall, and was not bothering to contact the Chantry for approval about it. But that is incorrect. She already HAD done so, BEFORE Anders blew up the Chantry of Kirkwall.
The player character can find out that offscreen, Meredith requested the Rite in-between Act 2 and Act 3, i.e. LONG before anything had happened to actually warrant it. Thankfully, the Grand Cleric of Kirkwall responded to her request how a normal, non-maniac person would, and denied it. So Meredith requested it AGAIN from the Divine of the Chantry (basically the Dragon Age Pope.)
The only thing that changed when Anders blew up the Kirkwall Chantry was that Meredith decided to not wait for anyone's permission and decided to slaughter every mage in the Kirkwall Circle, despite the fact that not only is Anders NOT A MEMBER OF THAT CIRCLE as SJ mentions, which the First Enchanter (head of the Circle) points out to her immediately, but Anders (THE CULPRIT WHO DID IT) was STANDING RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER. She has such a boner for killing all the mages in the Circle that she doesn't even bother to arrest Anders to show the people of Kirkwall that the person who did this is in custody and is going to face justice for what he has done. She doesn't WANT the people of Kirkwall to calm down, she wants them whipped into a frenzy so she can claim "I had to do something! The people were panicking!" The destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry was Meredith's Cassius Belli (excuse for war.) She wasn't pushed to annul the circle by the killing of innocent people, but rather the killing of innocent people gave her the excuse she needed to do what she had been wanting to do for yeeeeeeeears
I Love to play both sides of it !!! I love how much you love Dragon Age !!! My current Playthrough I’m an Elf Warrior Templar !!! I Love it !! I can’t wait to play VeilGuard !!!
Technically, Solas says in DAI that Lyrium is the source of ALL magic. lol Not the fade.
He does indeed say that! And in that same breath, he says, “save that which mages bring themselves.” You know - from the Fade. 😉
I always play a Mage so always side with the mages. But I can at least see why the Templars exist. I try to view it based on most extreme end if one side gets what they want with Origin and the tower being probably my favorite case where I can see both side’s point, the Mages became abominations and the Templars were concerned it was not over, the surviving Mages wanted to live. I chose the side that would have been wiped out by the other if things went in the wrong direction so chose Mages. But yeah, Blood Mages are a legitimate problem but it seems like most Templar vs Mages becomes the mages as a whole on the chopping block while Mages being less regulated could result in some really scary stuff but hopefully on an individual basis.
We know that Tevinter, with all of it's unregulated magic, isn't exploding with abominations all the time; wich proves that all of the opression that mages suffer troughout Thedas is largely pointless. Taking mages away from their families, locking them up, and constantly treating them with fear and suspicion only exacerbates the problem! What those mages need is TRAINING, above all else, to know how to controll their powers and avoid the perils of demons.
I completely, 100% agree with the second half of your comment! I went into that a bit more at length in the Horrors of Magic. However, I always like to caution against using Tevinter as a blueprint for what “right” looks like. The lack of a control system for magic in Tevinter is why we have the Blights, arguably the most horrendous cataclysm Thedas has ever faced. Not to mention the number of Tevinter mages we see throughout the Dragon Age franchise that use blood magic or just powerful magic in general to hurt, kill, and manipulate people. I’m just saying - I totally get your point, but Tevinter, the land of unadulterated magical chaos, is definitely not a great argument in favor of mage freedom when the opposing argument is, “mage freedom results in unadulterated magical chaos”, lol
You are correct. There is a society in Tevinter that is deplorable sure, but well maintained with laws and a social system in place. If they can do so with their mages free so can everyone else. Orlais has "Circles" like Viviene's that are nothing like other Circles in Thedas. Mages live almost completely free there too. No unadulterated magical chaos in Tevinter or Orlais to be found. There is corruption but thats everywhere. Mages do not need to be shacked and oppressed, they need to be educated. Moreover mages who are educated will not fall prey to a demon without the mages permission. Its completely inaccurate to say that a mage can be possessed at any point like the video pointed out.
@@10pointsofslashing But that is the point. If Tevinter, the land of unadulterated magical chaos isn't overrun by abominations, when by how magic allegedly works it should, then what's up?
If a place with "fuck it we ball" mentality regarding dark magic does fine in the that regard, is magic really that dangerous as the Chantry/ Templars say?
How do we know they arent "exploding with abominations" all the time? They have no issue using Blood Magic so instead of murdering the Abomination wouldnt they just enslave it?
@@i.cs.z I just asked the original comment but are we ABSOLUTELY sure they dont have Abominations coming out the woodwork? This is a place that USES BLOOD MAGIC, something that has been established to allow the enslavement of spirits/demons as well as people. I'd imagine they'd waste not/want not an Abomination and just enslave it.
Presuming the first they they teach mages isnt the blood magic to control demons... which given the few tevinter fights i remember from DA2 would seem like basic curriculum given how many demons show up when fighting Tevinter mages.
Next Up: Bhelen or Harrowmont?
@6:19 Yep, that is an accurate summary!
21:41 Slight correction, An demon was impersonating Lord Seeker Lucius when you meet him in Val Royeaux and in Champions of the Just. However, The real Lord Seeker Lucius is actually insane and is a part of a doomsday cult.
question do we see any apostate mage get possessed?
Hey, there! We sure do. Several times in just Origins and 2 alone. Connor, the Baroness, Grace, and of course, Anders - to name a few of the more impactful ones we see throughout the series. By definition, any mage that is not part of the Circle or abiding by the Chantry’s laws is deemed apostate, so you could lump Marethari in there as well. And technically Uldred would be considered apostate, too
The real villain of the Mage V Templar situation is the chantry all the power to make a change for the better while lazily sitting on their hands.
Giving powers to the templars thats put them on a leash and make them crazy.
The knight commanders who are problem the most affected assuming theyve been templars the longest can literally decide to execute every mage.
Specifically DA2 where Merideth invokes the Rite of Annulment over an act that was done by an ex Gray Warden Apostate.
Truly the beat case senario for every one involved is a mass circle reform where the mages are raised to a certain level of competency and allowed to reintegration into society
I think the templars and the chantry treat all this with fear and no logic, they create good ambients for demonic posessions with fear and hate. So I always side with the mages because I think they need to study this issue and seek a better option.
You act like the people of Thedas haven't been given every reason to fear and hate most magic
I always liked to play as a mage who supports the circle. It resonated the most with me, because while the system needs heavy adjustment, it serves an important purpose.
For the algorithm and Orzammar
To be honest the templars have every right to fear the mages because just one of them can cause suck damages but I feel like the newer games only every how the evil side to the templars and always show the mages as innocent and even when the mages do wrong devs pull oh but the mages have had such a bad experience and shitty life
I loved your choices and reasons, as mine are nearly exactly the same.
The reasoning was pretty much the same. Though in Inquisition, I still choose the mages, but I agree that it was hard after my playthrough choosing the Templars. Just saying that was the only part where we differed. Awesome analysis 👌
The thing is, Anders' actions did work to jettison the mage/templar tension building up, while also hurting what he thinks the real cause of the oppression of mages is, the chantry.
In terms of better ways to do it, there likely wasn't a better way to do it.
I'm not sure terrorism that lead the entire circle of mages and templar order into war across thedas was really a smart move. Remember, a lot of mages didn't want to split off or go to war, but many were forced to because of what Anders did and many mages who never wanted this died as a result.
@@VexdinLord To be fair, Anders knew very well that not all mages wanted to go to war but he also knew that sooner or later, a Meredith would show up in their area to slowly crush their circles into dust too.
He's clearly conscious that he'll be hated for his actions but it's a gamble he's ready to take because without change, mages will be crushed at some point, it's only a matter of when.
@hondshoven8477 i know what his motivations are. They're consistent with his character ever since Justice turned into Vengance and poisoned his mind into someone who would go to extremes. That doesn't change the fact that what he did was morally wrong and caused an already unsteady situation to spiral out of control into something nobody was prepared for. There's a difference between rallying the mages into rebellion and preparing them for war vs throwing everyone into war whether they wanted it or not.
@@VexdinLord He tried organizing a rebellion, or at least the roots of one, through the mage underground that Meredith crushed mercilessly by act 3.
There's a good reason mages never organized into a rebellion for centuries before Kirkwall exploded in such a fashion that every mage went rogue : the templars have so little oversight that they can crush any attempt at organizing something peaceful.
One guy talks too much ? Tranquil it is, we swear he was tempted by demons your grace !
A group of mages within a circle starts making demands about better treatment ? Whoopsie daisy, looks like we have no choice but to use the Right of annulment, they were obviously blood mages.
Not to forget too that when the Chantry asked them to chill after 2, they instead decided to go rogue to keep hunting mages so even if Anders somehow pulled it off and the Chantry made concessions, it would have still ended in blood.
@@hondshoven8477 I think what you're discussing here is true for the Kirkwall Templars. They had an insane amount of power and lack of oversight to the point that independent templars went around killing apostates and mages who were just trying to see their family. That was a failure on the Chantry in Kirkwall who should have had every authority to stop this but was too inactive when it mattered. It's also a very special case, as the Knight Commander was very popular with the locals of Kirkwall and was seen as a hero, thus making her more popular than even the Chantry leader. Most Towers that house mages don't have that kind of power imbalance that's so insanely Templars vs Mages. Fereldan's Tower was stated that the Mages and Templars had a decent relationship with one another in spite of the Resolutionists clearly wanting independence. Most Towers didn't turn you tranquil for daring to question a templar, and the level of power abuse varied across Thedas. What Anders ended up doing was forcing the mages all around Thedas, who might not have wanted to leave the towers, to either rebel and leave their lives behind, or stay and face the consequences for those who made that choice for you. A Mage vs Templar war was inevitable, maybe even necessary. However, it was never for Anders to force the issue on the whole world by killing the only people in the Kirkwall conflict who also wanted peace. I'm sure all the Tranquils who were taken advantage of by Tevinter mages or even their own mages and turned into skull eyeglasses were very grateful that some guy in Kirkwall decided they couldn't remain in the towers.
The only real problem is how mages are treated socially, especially by regular chantry staff. Everything else about how they're regulated is acceptable, aside from the rite of tranquility. Even Tevinter acknowledges the danger of possession and forces their mages, the highest social caste, to undergo The Harrowing.
If mages aren't kept in check, Ferelden would become like the Imperium. The Evanuris are also a great example of this.
Might be the un popular opinion but i 100 percent agree with the templers in every game we are shown the horror of abominations and how most mages will go to blood magic the millisecond they feel cornered orsino literally used blood magic and remember what anders said a mage just can't stumble across blood magic they have to make a deal with a demon say yes to its offer
Unpopular, sure - but totally reasonable. As long as you're not endorsing the whole abuse of power or general inhumane mistreatment thing, I think the games make it incredibly clear that magic is insanely dangerous and the Templars are necessary. Otherwise, we end up with Tevinter - slavery, all-powerful mage gods, the Blight, etc...
I agree. I went with the mages in the first 2 games, and I’ve done both in Inquisition. It felt like the Templars in inquisition got screwed because of the Envy demon…especially Ser Barris.
And Lord Seeker Lucius.
I always sided with the mages but recent playthrough I tried templars side and honestly I found that templars mission and that envy demon trying taking our inquisitors side honestly way more interesting rather mages with Alexius and time magic and honestly Calpernia more interesting as Inquisitiors torn in his backside rather than Templar Sampson,so yeah tried both sides and templars side were interesting, but it's players choise to keep templars and their order intact or disband them and reform them or ally with mages or conscript them,the decision is yours.
I have to break a lance for Greagoir: He is very reluctant to call the Right of Annullment and basically begs you to save Irving. He is much more happy, when Irving and the other mages are ok than if you kill them all. He is one of the better templars and seems to have a great working relationship with Irving. I would say they two together work great as a team and are both the good guys.
I totally agree about Anders, still Meredith is not fit to be knight commander. Even without the red lyrium, she is clearly traumatised and biased and should not be able to have power over the people she hates.
Kirkwall was in a special situation though, since the veil was pretty thin there because of the murders and atrocities done by the Tevinter back in the days. That is, why there are also so many serial killers around, like that magistrates son, or the one you hunt through 3 acts. There is a secret string of codexes, called The eNigma of Kirkwall, that explains this very well. SO basically, while Anders and Meredith both lost their shits, they might not have lost their shits so hard in part of the world (not justifying what they did, it just seems, that the weakening of teh Veil serves like a conduit for bringing out the worst in people).
In the first two games, I side with the mages, because Greagoir is happier with Irving alive (and we can save quite a lot of mages) and Meredith is wrong. I pretend Orsino loosing it didn't happen, because he was pretty down to earth the whole game and the devs even said, that he only transformed, because they wanted another boss fight.
In DAI there is no wrong decision for me. Both are vial. Though I prefer to do In Hushed Whispers, because it has this nice Doctor Who timeywhimey storyline. But I think, the templar quest is pretty interesting too. I think, both a valid to do. I just love the Doctor and companion vibe , Dorian and inqui have in IHW. It's more adventurous.
I hated, that they shoved Cullen on us though. He was a lunatic in DAO and a Meredith apologizer for most of DA2 and I don't like him. He allowed mages to get abused in Kirkwall.
As for good and bad: there are pretty bad people on both sides and pretty good ones. Wynne is a really good example of a very caring and responsible mage, Greagoir is the same for the templars. In DAO 2 you have Bethany , Alain and Feynriel (you two mage companions are both peices of shit sadly, Merrill doesn't take blood magic and demon deals serious at all and after having her along for Night Terrors, I lost all respect for her) and Thrask and Emmrich on the templars side. In DAI you have a lot of great people on both sides and even a fade spirit that helps you.
Cullen wasn't a lunatic in DAO. In DAO we had no idea if the remaining mages in the tower with Uldred had survived or not, or been tortured into blood mages. If the tower had been on the mainland, instead of having been on an island then chances are that things could've been much worse - especially with the templars low numbers in the the tower at the time.
Cullen was also tortured - probably was sexually assaulted by desire demons - in the tower, alongside being starved as Wynne put it. He saw his comrades fall in battle, with himself being the last one left. He wasn't insane, he had reasons - albeit probably ruthless reasons by today's standards - for wanting to do the litany.
i did pick the mage on my 1st full play and really take a long time to get to the end ( 2022) and now playing so a mage dating a templar so yea i going to pick the templar, if i mess up will replay it to make a warrior to date solas yes i am so going to do it
I love this video so much. It goes over so many points and choices that make Dragon Age so complex as a game. What I would argue over the mage side, is that they are still human beings and they don't choose to be mages, they simply are. They are also likely all meant to be scholars in order to learn to use their abilities and where they come from and that is their strength and also usefulness to the world. While templars represent stability, they also represent an unchanging world, using means that are no longer viable, while mages represent progress. Part of the reason why mages feel confined, is because their rules of confinement are never updated despite them discovering ways to use magic in a controlled manner over time. And the thing I disagree with here is that templars are the solution, I would say that mages are the solution to solving the problem of demons while templars are simply a form of adaptation that society took. Both would be required to actually solve the problem, since if they worked together to maintain a more controlled exploration of the fade and where mages get their power. If they had done something like this, Solas would likely wake up to a different world and hold a different opinion about it. Solas is also a huge representative of mages, showing how there is progress in the chaos or magic, as he liberated an entire society through being smart, and he hates the world he woke up in because perhaps he sees that the world is so close to solving it's own problems but they don't because they are stuck in adapting to the world instead of changing it. And in this role, I would say that mages are able to change it, they have a lot of qualities that with the help of templars as well can be refined in order to help people and save people. They don't have to just represent a danger to the world, but rather be a great asset. And they already are since the beginning of the story, which is why they should earn some rights like visiting their families and being listened to when it comes to their specialty. I would argue that the world, and even templars wouldn't be where they are and have their powers without mages and their progress and exploration. Bellara also seems like she might be an antithesis to Solas and represent even more clearly the important role of a brave explorer in a dangerous world.
It's not "since time immemorial" though. Solas definitely remembers it, as do any of the other Evanuris, plus all the ancient elves in the Arlathan forest. It was before when humans arrived on Thedas (-3100 Ancient Age) but still remembered.
Thus far ive sided with the mages consistently. However with us now going to northern Thedas i can see that changing easily depending on who the mages and templars in the conflict are.
I lost it at “general paladin shit”. 😂
The whole problem with the “circles and templars are so necessary because of demons” Is that we have hundreds of years of life in human and elven societies where demons are patently NOT running rampant. This doesn’t mean that those societies were “good”, of course, just that they were clearly capable of keeping demons contained even without the presence of templars or circle system.
If anything the actions of the templars and the way the circle system is organized are shown to be, in many cases, the cause of people giving themselves to demons or blood magic (which are really not the same thing).
Issue with this is that we have no idea. Maybe they had a far more repressive system than the Templars to keep things under control. We literally don't know. So you're making massive assumptions based on nothing.
There is literally a whole questline in Origins centered around a pride abomination leading people to their deaths across Ferelden, for decades, and its base of operations was in Denerim.
Also the original mages and gods of the elven pantheon were all abominations that enslaved people.
@@jarlwilliam9932 not talking about those societies being inherently good, but they were stable for hundreds and thousands of years, containing demonic influence without the need of the circle or the templars. Place the templars are enslavers too, strictly speaking.
@@stephenjenkins7971 we know that those repressive systems weren't relevant enough to be brought upon in the game, in a period where the debate about mages and what to do about them is one of the focal points. Place we have Dalish keepers practically free, and the dalish aren't falling victim to unending waves of possessed dalish apprentices. Tevinter might be mages in the current setting at their worst, and though their society does have monstrous aspects, and is pretty free with blood magic it is not about to fell prey to demonic invasions, and most citizen live absolutely normal lives.
@@giovannipanzeri6431 The main issue never was demonic possession, it's public safety. Mages are an inherent danger to everyone based on the fact they can summon a fireball at their will.
Isn't it fair to say that people that can burn other people whenever they want should be contained in a way?
The Templar order is broken, but not evil. Neither of them are “evil”.
We see in Tevinter and through Inquisition, DA1 and 2; that “absolute power corrupts absolutely” and the mages of Tevinter prove to be incredibly evil and ruthless. Lord Luvius Erremond of Viranthium & Corepheus serve as examples of what a powerful and evil mage can accomplish, significantly more so than just a guy with an army. The Templars are a broken order which is corrupt from the top down, it would need to be completely overhauled for any chance of having it survive inquisition, but the mages present such an omnipresent danger to every non-magic user if one decides to one day become evil. Plus the mages aligning with Tevinter under any circumstances is treason at best and an admission of practicing blood magic. The Templars would need to be overhauled from the ground up, as the Inquisitor, I disband the order when I side with the Templars, but similarly, the Mages have proven to be completely untrustworthy in contrast to the thuggish brutality of the Templar Order, the Templar’s are generally more honest and upfront .
I prefer to think of it as more "absolute power is the great revealer", rather then corrupter. There are things people won't do, not because they are morally wrong, but because there would be consequences they don't want to face if they do, but if you take away the threat of consequences, or at least the perception thereof, as power is wont to give, then those people would end up doing those morally wrong thing. It only seems to us on the outside that they became corrupted, when really, that's who they've always been, just unable to indulge due to lacking the power to avoid the backlash.
STOP the Anders jokes are SENDING ME 😂
i love how most DA players are choosing based on "your feeling clouding your judgement"
siding with mage just feels right even though we know that templars aren't that unreasonable
also can't forget that part when people rather choosing harrowmont over belen simply because he's nicer, even though he's suck as a king
If the mages want to reform then I think they should do what the Empire does in Warhammer Fantasy grant mages liscense to use magic almost like an IRL job liscense.
@3:28 you should do a video about Solas though
I wish in inquisition we were able to put the mage/ Templar war to rest and help both sides be what they should be by helping them
Shout out to Emeric. Probably the most moral Templar in the series
The only way I see the Templars and mages co-existing is if there are MAGES who overseer the Templars and execute abusers with full authority just as templars execute possesed or abusing mages
@22:15 The fact that they were founded for the purpose of containing magic does not automatically make them experts in stuff like world-ending holes in the sky belching-out demons. To address that, you have to understand magic, which Templars know f**k-all about. They can interrupt and dispel minor spells, but even the magic that can be done by an Abomination is frequently beyond them. MAYBE if they had stuck more faithfully to their origins, they WOULD be useful. But the Templar order as it exists in 9.40 Dragon? Useless aside from serving as part of the Inquisition's army. And with all the information Leliana is able to provide you, the Inquisitor knows that, even if they wouldn't necessarily have known it before the events of the game
This was so much fun. I was listening to this while making dinner. My brother and I decided to finish listening while we ate.
Personally I am siding with the templars. I feel like both factions are f’ed up, but the templars are easier to reform. The mages are the ones slitting throats and summoning demons.
idk, i always see the templars doing a lot of the killing
and very few mages summon demons
wow it really has always been mages or templar. i wonder if that’s gonna be a major point for the end game
I like to get to the real roots of the issues.
The problem made of mages is they can become abominations. How does that happen? Because they are possessed by demons. How does that happen?
We have further found out that the line between demon and spirit is very thin, and spirits are natural. The question then becomes what turns a spirit into a demon, and it is at that point that templar actions look much more negative. Opressing so many people in a single place, with an expressive fear of spirits, is just going to create demons, and then line up mages to become possessed.
We have seen elsewhere in Thedas that mages can be given much more freedom, and avoid being lined up into becoming possessed. Arguably, the biggest thing would be understanding what spirits are and avoiding having them turn into demons. Such that it was the shitty treatment of mages around Anders that twisted Justice inside Anders into Vengeance, and the Chantry itself actually held responsibility on that. If there was proper education around the spirits, the mages being abused would be less of a threat.
I have a problem with Gregoir's line as it seems like he doesn't count the mages as innocent folk of Ferelden, even those unpossessed whom serve no danger to the circle.
Meredith did nothing wrong. Meredith annulled the Circle in order to prevent a riot from Kirkwall's citizens. The Chantry was destroyed and innocent bystanders killed by magic. They would have been the target regardless. Siding with the templars was right to prevent a wider conflict from occurring. And regardless of who you side with, various blood mages and those giving in to demonic possession can be seen all throughout the final part of Act III. Kirkwall was downright plagued by bad mages. Even so, it is possible to spare mages who surrender.
Inquisition's choice was also pretty easy. The mages were approached, and then they were found to have sold themselves into slavery. Pretty open and shut. The Inquisition could make its appeal to any mages in Redcliffe to abandon Fiona and join the Inquisition. Those who wanted were free to leave. Going for the templars after this is easily justified. Being informed of the trap Alexius planned to spring on the Herald also justified avoiding Redcliffe and going for the templars. Same with the news that Arl Teagan had gone to Denerim to get help from the crown. Let Fereldans deal with Ferelden's problems. And let the Inquisition deal with the Chantry's problems, namely the templars.
As for Origins, this was outside the Mage/Templar War. It was an example of mages corrupting a Circle from the inside, and templars dealing with the situation as best they could. The right choice is to go in with a surgical strike, destroying the corrupt and saving the innocent.
The problem with the Mage/Templar War is that it was glossed over and many finer points were skipped. Also, I think DA2's conclusion was far-fetched. Siding with mages could realistically result in a mage rebellion, but siding with the templars likely would not. The idea it happens either way is just lazy writing. They should have laid down more groundwork as to why a mage rebellion was possible either way. Or they should have had no rebellion if Hawke sided with templars, since the events of Inquisition are due more to what happens in Asunder rather than DA2 anyway. So have the rebellion arise from Asunder in either case.
Well ultimately I believe we should let solas destroy the veil and let everything go back as they were and then the mage templar dilemma will be over until then suppress people just because they had a better connection to the fade its cruel, as for the argument of being a danger I mean by looking to our world its the biggest evidence that we don't need magic to mess up the world or commit atrocities
A really good video however as it is opinion I feel I disagree, yes it is the good thing to do to retract the right of analment in DAO; however as you pointed out in your video and cullen points out we have no way of knowing how many are demons and the point of the circle is to stop all demons/mages from commiting harm. Plus it has litterally been days once you arrive and I honestly do not think many mages survived anyway (although more likely a game resctriction not displaying so many in the tower). So I think once you save the mages you should have to say to gregor I do not know if any of them are possed. Also all this started from one mage getting possed so this could not litterally happen again.
On DA2, I have done both choices but given if the mage incharge of the circle turns to blood magic and that meradith is just nuts I do not feel it matters or that it should matter which one you choose. anders does this but he has been in contact with blood mages from the circle so I can see why the right would be used. Plus as you said, blood magic and demons are everywhere and your on mom is killed as a resault of one in a story line. I kinda feel like hawk 70% of the time would agree with the right unless maybe his sister is there and he wants to protect her. Other then that I just feel everything in DA2 just shows how bad it is when one the templars are not doing their jobs well (being too rough) and not stopping it early enough. And hawk is there to see it all tbh.
Good video though and this is just my opinion, I have done every choice in these games and it always comes down to morals. Protect the weak or protect the sufferers. (civies, mages)
I am on the mages side. Templars are abusive, sure not all of them, but that is what they do. That is why a lot of mages go mad. They want to escape that life.
Yes, mages should study and protect themselves of demons, but the method is not keeping them prisoners. I just dont get why people would be on the templars side knowing what we know in games. But yeah, I think mages have a better chance to close the magical gap in the sky lol. They know how it is created, they know how to close it.
Don’t forget that Templars are also Lyrium addicts and if they use too much Lyrium, their brain will turn into cheese. And if they stop using Lyrium for a while, they’ll go through withdrawal symptoms and possibly die.
"knowing what we know"? Really, have you heard of Magisters Sidereal or the Evanuris? ALL the big evil in the world of Thedas has been caused by mages.
@@AndE667 The Qun. Orlais imperialism. Loghain.
I lost my family to an apostate mage, so I became a Templar. I'd invoke the Rite of Annulment on them all if I could!
Unless I'm playing as a mage, then fvck the Templars.
The Qunari have the correct way of handling mages.
@supercoolfacething care to share any more on that thought?
Well in this case the mages are more in the right. Mages are dangerous, sure, but any schmuck with a sword can still go kill people. The tower circles were BAD places to be, since Templars largely saw mages as inhuman weapons. The instances of mages causing problems are almost exclusively tied to the treatment they received at the hands of Templars while in circles.
I think the problem is the Chantry, not really Templars or mages. Though some Templars suck a lot.
@@channel45853 The Templars are the private army if the Chantry. Yes the core if the problem IS the Chantry, but the Templars csn't be separated from that, they are part if the Chantry.
My current world state has Leliana divine, so mages got more freedom. But I also allied with the Templars, so all the loyal ones went on to become Seekers. I think that's the best, anti magic warriors without the lyrium requirement. Though let's be real, human nature means there will always be some idiot who ruins both sides for everybody lol
In my opinion you shouldn't side with anybody you should find a solution to the problem creatng a more just society for everybody and there is a hint of this in Inquisition in the issue of choosing the new divine in what Cassandra and Leliana say they would do if they were chosen. So It would be great if this issue is addressed in the new game. By the way I love DA and especially Inquisition.
The Thing is there is NO solution mages shouldnt be locked away. They should learn yes but be Free Like others and templers are against that
@@moodus9104 there's always a solution if people are reasonable instead of only thinking about money and power and history (and unfortunately even the present) is full of terrible examples but if we have democracies now it's because at one point a lot of people understood it was the best system for everybody so it's possible and you can write a story where it's possible.
@@littlemouse7066 yeah but you need to Understand that education is very important because if the People dont learn they will Doom the Mages Back to the Circle. And the circle is No solution anymore. They should Life Like the other people of thedas because they are
DA2 I sided with the mages until… I HAD TO FIGHT THROUGH A WAVE OF DEMON POSSESSED MAGES AND BLOOD MAGES THEN THE FIRST ENCHANTER GOES “Meh if you can’t beat em join em!” AND BECAME A CORPSE MONSTER
😂😂
I've always sided with the mages, because pretty much every problem a mage causes is directly or indirectly caused by the oppression the templars keep them under. Most mages you run into that have turned to criminals have done so because they have no other options while running for their lives from templars. Their options are literally submit to living with a sword hanging over your head and anyone can drop on a whim just because they didnt like your tone, or a life on the run from people who will murder you because the possibility you could hurt them. The whole idea is so hypocritical, the fact they commit atrocities on the hypothetical atrocities their victims could be causing. They arent preventing harm, they are just making sure its the "other" group that is being harmed. Add in that so many templars are just corrupt as all shit and many of them are cruel to mages just because they enjoy hurting people, oh and lets not forget the dosing their men with addicting magic crystals to force their loyalty on pain of lethal withdrawal symptoms, and I could never stomach them.
What you described only happens with the Chanty/Mages in the South. IE: Fereldan and Orlais. All the stuff about it being "necessary" for the Templars to be that brutal and repressive is put to falsehood when you look at Tevinter, Neverra, and other places in the North: Mages are respected, not feared, given positions of honor (Magisters, Mortalitasi) and police themselves.
They have way, way lower incidents of possession than the South does. The southern Chantry way (what you described) is basically the worst of all possible ways to handle things and inherently a powderkeg waiting to explode.
Hey man! I appreciate the comment and I totally get what you’re saying - but as I’ve said before, any argument that points to Tevinter as the example for what “right” looks like just doesn’t work for me. The south has significantly more reported instances of possession, sure. But there are one or two more instances of world-ending calamity caused directly by the unchecked power of mages coming from Tevinter & friends, so…
At the end of the day I think the crux of the “Tevinter has it right” people’s argument is this - in Tevinter, mages are educated more about what demons are and how to resist them. And this is exactly what I feel the Chantry should do as far as reform goes. To that end, we are in complete agreement. But unchecked power doesn’t work for me (or Thedas, as proven in game) and neither does oppression and slavery. As I said in the video, I think Thedas absolutely needs the south’s Circles for incredibly obvious reasons, but mages (and Templars alike) need to be educated more on the nature and resistance of demons.
I do lean into supporting the Templars more in principle. but the game forces you to side with the mages out of common decency and mortality. As Magic in this universe is a real danger to the people and even Mages themselves, the demons are a real danger and can very quickly take over and then become a danger to everyone. But I'm not blind, the Templars can be too heavy handed and I think need to become more close to the Mages and remember they're still people, people you are tasked to protect and help. I think The Templars need to revise their methods and become more like a support group for the mages than just their wardens. The Templars need a rebuild back into a noble order who serve to protect and guide.
I will say though, I always save the circle.
I side with the mages in 2 because they are innocent and I ain't going to let some drugged lady do what she wants to innocent people.
The mages invite demons into thaedus any moment they are pressed or cornered. Bad guy by default. We would have purged them or currently be their slaves in our world if it were the case
Regarding your ultimate conclusion of being on the Templars' side: your opinion is bad! And you should feel bad! Please continue making videos. Lol
And why is that?
Hmmm.... I'm more on the Mages side. The Dalish keep the numbers of mages low and that seemingly works to combat abominations. Although I think the best solution would be to allow mages to self-govern. Mages are less likely to create boogymen out themselves when they can empathize with and have a better understanding of a fledgling mage. A lot of the temptation mages succumb to is due to the oppression they face. Also as far as the templars go I think its bad to have people addicted to drugs. Most of the time they dont know that they will have to take lyrium to be a templar let alone how addictive it will be and the mind deteriorating effects the drug has long term. So yeah mages and this is for you. 🍆
I'm deffo on the mages side, the mages can police themselves, the Templars, especially with lyrium and religious fervour, are crazy oppressor's and can't help being big fascist cops, based anders frfr and based divine Leliana for dissolving the circle and templar order
I always side with the mages because I always play as a mage and I don’t want to get annulled.
There is no discussion whatsoever one group is hunted prisoned tranquil even unalived by another just for being born this way. And its not easy to possess mage just many mages does because they feel hopeless are cornered didnt even learned magic yet and someone already wanna slay them for being born so they allow demon to defend them because demon says “i will deal with them for you” not saying i run your body from now . So if people wasn’t dickheads possessions wouldn’t even happen. Chantry lies as always to justify their sick actions. (They corner mage making him hopeless and take that possessions prove ? Because he was scared and would do anything fighting for his own life. Tahts manipulation not prove) Oh and to deal with mages because its so bad they have to use magic themselves taking lyrium. (I hate u because u have magic i dont have so i will use it anyway and make ur slave for my cause because u cannot control yourself but i can control all of you and my addiction i am smarter than all of you even when addicted) templars logic is invalid. And why was circle overrun by demons ? After jovans escape gregor was mad and want to tranquill most of mages. And jovan escape just because he know they will tranquil him. Mages were cornered and threatened and not TRAINED (just indoctrinated in tower)so cannot defend themselves. Perfect example of templars manipulation create problem and then pretend they are the only ones who can solve it. If they dont threat mages possesions wont happen. Even if they allow them to learn magic they could easily win with templars but templars fear magic dont let mages learn if mage learn anyway its tranquill . So in moment when they are threatened to be tranquill or unalive and not being able to defend themselves of course they will allow demon in because demon promised (lied) to deal with a thread witch is templar who abused that mage his entire life in circle. And i 100% support anders . Meridith is getting mad noone is dealing with her. ( anders is from origins he meet grey warden he knows what templars did he recognise pattern is concerned of kirkwalls mages fate) chantry does nothing petrice is messing behind divines back even chantry is corrupted now! . Vicount does nothing with qun. Anders knows even hawk wont help cannot help . Anders sees injustice and he think he still have spirit of justice in him hoping that spirit will bring justice ( another hopeless mage tricked by demon only because people are assholes and noone is fixing that hopes to do good with spirit of justice - well demon tricked him but still anders controlled demon untill he felt hopeless because of templars being threat to mages. Anders had clinic was healing people refuges after blight and templars still was hunting him and he did nothing . He just snapped seeing meredith is out of mind noone will help his fellow mages not even hawk. He dodged that to start mages rebelion to destroy circles so no other mage would be ever hunted and controlled. And if not strong emotions caused by meredith he wouldnt let demon in and could even help mages without killing innocents. Anyway best quote is from leliana when u ask her why she sides with mages “because i also can kill mages yet i am free and they are not”
Mages for me tbh. Templars had their chance and failed miserably. Chantry did too failed miserably. Inquisition will reform everything and mages will have rules but be better from there on out
I choose to side with the Templars. Because they look cooler ☝️ And only the weakest become Red Templars ☝️ Mages are just too risky, they can secretly be blood mages.
Templars are too risky as well, they exploit and mistreat mages, causing them to turn into dangerous abominations.
There is a society in Tevinter that is deplorable sure, but well maintained with laws and a social system in place. If they can do so with their mages free so can everyone else. Nevarra, the Dalish, and Grey Wardens have systems in place that also maintain order. Orlais has "Circles" like Viviene's that are nothing like other Circles in Thedas. Mages can live almost completely free there too. No chaos in the Dalish, Tevinter, or Orlais to be found. There is corruption but thats everywhere. Mages do not need to be shacked and oppressed, they need to be educated. Moreover mages who are educated will not fall prey to a demon without the mages permission. Its completely misleading to say that a mage can be possessed at any point like the video pointed out. When a demon possesses a trained mage it is in fact rare, and almost always that mages choice to have it happen. Templars need to be among the normal people as a peacekeeping force and Mages need to be forced to attend the Circle until they prove themselves to not be a danger to themselves or others, the Circles should be governed only by Mages. The system in place needs to be changed to that extent so that another mage rebellion wont be necessary. Anything shy of this is just a temporary measure until another rebellion comes about.
@moonwitch616 This read, to me, as confrontational and accusatory and then it ends with, “but I completely, 100% agree with you and how you think the Circles should run”, lol. Dragon Age is wild 😂
I would like to clarify - no chaos in Tevinter? 🧐 are you familiar with the worldwide cataclysm that happened as a direct result of unchecked mage power in Tevinter? I mean, I guess you’re right in that the chaos of the Blight moved out of Tevinter and toward the rest of the world, in which case - did a Tevinter magister write this comment? 😂
For the Dalish, we have Merrill, a Dalish blood mage, whose actions would have resulted in absolute catastrophe if not for Hawke’s intervention, with the guarantee of at least one mage being possessed by a pride demon with or without Hawke. Without the assistance of a plot armored protagonist, this would have been a huge deal. I’d definitely qualify that (and her, lol) as chaos
For the Grey Wardens, the systems they had in place allowed for the summoning of a literal demon army by way of blood magic…
And I know absolutely nothing about Nevarra other than some weird death magic stuff happens there due to some unorthodox beliefs around spirits, so here’s to hoping The Veilguard sheds some light on their society and how they treat magic!
Lastly - “…it is in fact rare” meaning it does happen, and “…almost always that mages choice” meaning sometimes it isn’t. And that’s exactly my issue with total mage freedom - all it takes is one time for somebody to do something stupid and we have the Blights or an entire city destroyed.
Regardless, like I said - we’re in complete agreement on reform for the Circles. Separation from the Chantry and actual, in-depth education on the risks and results of possession rather than, “go pass this test. We’re not gonna tell you what it is though. Good luck with the demon lmao” are the two biggest pieces of it for me.
@@10pointsofslashing While I do with some of what you discussed to me it seemed as though your statements in the video were more absolutes. You said a mage can be possessed at any point as if to speak to their constant state of danger rather than adding the context of trained vs untrained mages and how often possession comes up.
As for your comment itself Meril, some of the Grey Wardens, and some magisters/the Venatori are each isolated incidents that can be referenced but not be taken as a rule of thumb. I see no reason to mention any of them without also mentioning there is more evidence that these systems work under normal circumstances. They have worked for years. Especially in Orlais and Navarra. The fact that the Magisters allegedly brought brought the blight to Thedas is likely about to change in Veilguard, and it's better served as a cautionary tale rather than damming evidence weighed against modern day mages/events given that those responsible should be long dead. That event is well and truly irreversible and not at all connected to the modern conflict except to say that when magic is abused the result can be disastrous. Which everyone is well aware of. It's more relevant and progressive to the modern Era to cite the abuse, oppression, and fear mongering of the Chantry and how this has led directly to further abuses of magic. Magic won't go away it's here to stay no matter what course of action is taken so I feel like it's better to focus on how magic is received and spoken on by the public and the Chantry rather than the mages and their individual trespasses with magic. Once we have a plan in place for The Templars and Chantry to no longer have their boot on the necks of mages we can look at what mages have done through history to see what works and what doesnt.
@@10pointsofslashing I also wanted to say im not intending to come across as accusatory but what seems to be happening with the things you say come across to me as misinformation. For another example you also say that every time a mage casts a spell a demon could posses them. I have never come across this in the lore, and playing mages or seeing mages in game suggests that to not be true at all. Solas in Inquisition confirms this to not be true based on the information he gives to us about spirts and demons. The ONLY times I can think of where a demon possessed a mage without consent in the games is in Origins where the Circle falls to demons getting the upper hand over everyone as a result of the Harrowing. Once one mage failed he was able to then forcefully insert demons into others. The other time is when basically the same thing happens in Inquisition. The games have never displayed or spoken of mages being constantly or persistently stalked and tempted by demons each time they cast a spell even with the use of Blood Magic. Now if it says this in a codex somewhere ill be willing to concede im wrong but that codex would still be in direct opposition to what we see in game, and would come across more so as the devs not being able to agree on what to do with magic as the vast majority of magic in Dragon Age is used utterly consequence free.
I actually really appreciate your work as a whole your video is very interesting and im grateful that you took the time to debate this with me in any case.
That was super cool of you to say - thank you so much! I appreciate your comments and insight too! The funny thing is, even if you are being accusatory it's totally cool, lol. This is a super deep debate in the Dragon Age world because it deals with so many serious real-world issues and emotions. Everybody is allowed to have an equally serious and nigh unshakeable opinion about it, IMO. Part of what makes us all love this franchise so much! So, no worries at all.
I am sorry too, I'm just honestly super confused about this entire interaction, lol. We're both arguing for the same thing, we're just arguing about why we're arguing for it 😂
And I'm kind of lost - your first point was that these other societies all have systems in place that maintain order. I then gave examples of how those systems don't maintain order and you essentially responded with, "those are the exception, not the rule" - which is, again, my entire point...there are exceptions and that's why the systems don't work. It's like somebody goes out and murders a family, is tried for it, and the defense says, "well, you can't take this as a rule of thumb. Most of the time, he's not murdering people." The judge doesn't just go, "oh, word? All good, then!"
And finally, I think you might be hyper-fixating on the verbiage there - the lore does indeed tell us that demons possess mages because of their mutual connection to the Fade. I'm not saying demons are chomping at the bit and sit around in the Fade waiting for mages to cast spells. Thousands of demons don't enter a que for possession every time somebody gets up in the middle of the night to pee and magically lights a candle. The mage does have to consent and I know that - what I'm trying to communicate is that that could very well happen at any point in time. Demons can, as we've seen so far, reach out at any point in time and manipulate otherwise strong-willed people into possession. It's terrifying, and that's what I urge people to consider.
@@10pointsofslashing I agree. It is a lot of fun to debate these things. It makes being part of the Fandom more enjoyable. Im really enjoying this discussion with you.
My points were that earlier you said that "mages can be possessed at any time" and "when a mage casts a spell they can be possessed". Both statements taken at face value are false because what happens for the vast majority of the time a demon is targeting a mage they resist as per their training Circle or no Circle, traditional or non traditional they do successfully resist that is a fact. If your statements are to be taken literally there would be chaos everywhere you look. You didnt provide context or nuance to either statement which is why I find them misleading. Yes im hyper-fixating on the verbiage because you leave the viewers with no choice. Both of those statements mislead without context.
I also understand where we disagree the most. Its more wrong in my opinion to draw attention away from the everyday caging, suffering, discrimination, disrespect, and de-humanization of mages in Fereldon by bringing up idiotic accidents like Meril and the willfully evil acts of Tevinter Magisters/Venatori. By continuing to speak to magics potential danger without highlighting the rarity of these circumstances (which is what you were doing in the video) it seeks to garner sympathy for a pro templar stance when the fact of the matter is that magic isnt going anywhere and that Thedas needs to learn better ways to adapt on the mage and templar side. There will always be the possibility of a misuse of power in every society magic is irrelevant to that fact. Which is why no mater what Thedas chooses to do about magic there will always be catastrophes because of it. Its like trying to plug all the volcanos on earth when all you are doing is adding pressure to the inevitable eruption. When you are talking about rights to freedom of choice in life these abuses of power dont matter as much in comparison. Mages deserve to be able to govern themselves without ANY oversight in my opinion. If they make it work as shown in people/places like Nevarra, Orlais, the Dalish, and in Tevinter great. If they fail horribly and destroy themselves thats unfortunate but at least they were given the choice and freedom to fail. A pro templar stance diminishes/confuses that core issue minimizing the fact that mages should never have been be treated as they have been. It will only lead to greater acts of war which as we have seen will cause the greater loss of life and suffering.
I dont see the value in making a comparison of what a judge would
do when sentencing a criminal to actively drawing attention away from the plight of mages and magic on Thedas. The reason your comparison doesnt work in my opinion is that any given judge will be more intelligent and mature than anyone in Thedas. They have a great deal of growing up/maturing to do to even come close to our societal standards, let alone the standards a judge should have. Saying "most of the time hes not murdering people" as you put it isnt the same as me saying instances of magical misuse and demonic possession are rare. Because we are talking about the consequences of the horrific abuse of a group of people for generations which is completely unnecessary given my examples listed from the more stable places in Thedas. It serves no purpose in my opinion to state the fact that the fact the the Blight exists because of the abuse magic when talking about generational de-humanization of mages. It only obscures the fact that Thedas needs to be having a different conversation entirely that conversation being: How can we coexist with mages, magic, and demons more efficiently? Because none of those things will go away anytime soon no matter how bad/scary magic is made to seem.
So i watched it and you are very VERY biast about the mages because you See them as Bad through your conotation. And i have a lot to add. First Greagoir IS NOT a good Man he dont see mages as a part of Ferelden People. They are secound-class Humans. He simply dont care about the mages in any ways ! For example about Jowan! I Love him great character. He just wanted to flee and be Happy with Lily and needed to use Blood Magic to escape because He dont wants to be lobotomiced. Now da:2 . I dont think there was a another way for anders or any mages. Like we saw in Inquisition If there is a Rebellion the templers Kills all and pretend it never happend. This would be done Here too and furthermore didnt you See that the Most Blood Magic was caused BY the templers the 3 at the end of the Game or Hack EVEN Orsino! He used Blood Magic because he saw NO OTHER choice and i Understand that! And Like anders did nothing wrong because the People saw Everything now they can't hide what's happening ! I am for the mages because they can life WITHOUT Templers Like in anccient time
As a new DA player. I watched this mainly as catch up for TVG. I tried inquisition a while back but the style wasn't for me. Looking forward to diving into TVG though. That's Looking more like my style. Thanks mate, great video.
12:31 thats cap your justifying genocide
Your delivery reminds me of matpat
Had fate worked out differently, I might have ended up blocking this channel due to the Skyrim video. Literally can't stand Skyrim anymore 😂 it and Bethesda need to be swept under the rug and forgotten
bethesda doesn't deserve the hate
Just look at it like this. The mages are the Palestinians. They are constantly watched by the IDF(Templars) and essentially just want to be free. Hope this dumbs it down for you.
I like to think they're more like zios.
Think about it, they hold tremendous power (Magic/Western backing), they constantly cause tremendous harm (Any blood magic incident/Anytime Israel bombs an arab country) and anytime we try to hold them accountable, people like You (Mage simps/Zionists) make the excuse that they're the victmins and say there's no other way to deal with the problem except killing more people.
The truth needs to be said.