As someone who tried out blind second in masterduel here are my general takes on board breakers: 1. Against decks like branded or snake-eyes, they often have lots of recovery which board breakers normally wont stop and handtraps would. This is especially relevant for cards like drnm which ensure opp gets another turn. 2. One board breaker is often not enough, and there are ways decks can play around board breakers like committing to varied interruptions like combining traps, gy effects, and on field negates. Not every deck will, but the ones that do will screw you over. Not to mention ftks/burn that will show up every couple games. 3. For a bo1 like masterduel, lot of board breakers are more situational than handtraps like ash blossom (imagine you drew drnm against lab, you’d lose) 4. They often have much larger costs than handtraps. The “cost” of nibiru giving the opponent a token is kinda nonexistent. The cost of drnm or evenly giving up your battle phase ensures the opp gets a second turn. Or ultimate slayer or superpoly forcing you to spend extra deck spots. Plus if you have a in-archetype lock like a lot of rogue decks, you can still play nibiru but cant play cards like kaijus. There is a reason blind second decks like mikanko and numeron dont see much competitive play.
Because they are quite bricky? Yeah, the theory of going second only works on stuff like Duel links where you still have a 4th turn, but in general there's just way more advantages to go-first players, most notably the access to backro and having the Omni negate boss first. 20 handtraps/board breakers means our board will be flimsy quite often, vulnerable to their handtrap they kept while doing their turn, not to mention handtraps in general are situational; What will Nibiru do against Labryinth or Baronne? What will Ash do against Tear? What will Maxx C do against Floo? If you said "Nothing", that's the fundamental problem with going second, you either get negated or your boards end up too flimsy to be threatening, considering many decks can float into smaller combo pieces in case you try to break them.
1. That's why you have an end board as well after drnm. 2. Also true for handtraps. 3. Not enough evidence for that claim. What about drawing maxx c against floo? Or shifter vs kashtira? 4. Similar costs. What about talents? Cards like that are basically the cost of handtraps. From my personal experience, and after conducting a statistical test, at least for my control decks (runick stun, antimeta, floo...) playing board breakers over handtraps improves the winrate.
@@sergiocarrasco9762 1. You have an end board while still have to handle opp monsters, make sure you can stop their recover. It's not very task for many decks. Not to mention about other kind of distrupt. Set up a board in 1st is different in 2nd to win. Even opp has no interupt 2. HT can be use to reduce the power of end board, even 1 good choke point can stop every uppcoming recover or extend distrupt like spell/trap or lingering eff so you can play around. Not to mention HT is more versatiles, while going second isn't for all of the side deck/main deck. 3. Do not understand, what do you mean? You can try to put drnm over ash blossom and test . 4. He used "Often", triple tatic is a card for going first too. You can still see if you compare for 2nd to clear opp play for you to combo, it's weaker.
I like that you played against an extremely tough board and not too sackie because you also were Maxx Ced and Scythe locked. This was legit gameplay as it gets. Kudos for that.
The main problem is that one card accrues so much card advantage that if you dont negate it, your now down sometimes 6 cards compared to the opponent, and one board breaker wont get that back. DRNM is good, but the opponent still has all their grave yard, all their backrow, and whatever handtraps they drew. To elaborate, if you were to kaiju A snake eye board, you spent one card to remove one fourth of a resolved snake eye ash, where impermanence stops all of snake eye ash.
DRNM in particular is not great against SE but if you are playing a deck that also is able to accrue a ton of advantage it is easy to second. If your opponents board state is negated, one super poly is sufficient to do this as mudragon prevents future targeting, your opponent has to have two non targeting handtraps to stop you. You have a much higher chance of seeing an extender than your opponent and a way to deal with the board.
These going 2nd cards also accrue massive advantage. Look at the matrix. Better than pot of greed added 2 cards then let me send a card from deck to ED. The power of alot of these going 2nd decks is vastly unexplored. Again over 180 cards say "when your opponent controls a card" check them out many of them generate phenomenal advantage.
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming I main Ancient Warriors, a lot of this does add up and matches what I have experienced through trial and error. The 6th card is almost never mentioned, but sometimes makes a huge difference. Guan Yun is an in archetype pankertops and more than one AW mentions an additional effect if the opponent controls a monster or more monsters than yourself. I have found that they are very under rated and by adapting staples and board breakers for each meta very little trial and error is required to learn how to defeat any deck that appears often. With the new ban list several of the common boards that I have learned how to play through have changed forcing more innovation on my part due to no longer seeing the same few monsters summoned as part of every deck's end board.
In a 1 game format such as Master Duel, blind second decks are generally better than they would be in other formats because in other formats, you just tech against your opponent in games 2 and 3.
@@cephon6198Which isnt likely. FTK decks are typically very luck based nowadays. You may get lucky going first without getting trapped but that isnt a guarentee. I speak from experience running Gem Knight ftk in masterduel. It sounds scary until you realize that getting hand trapped at all or not getting an amazing hand in the draw can be disasterous. Its also a coin flip as to whether you go first at all.
The thing you're ignoring is that most of those boardbreaker aren't enough by themselves against SE. More often than not, you'll need 2 board breakers, making the math vs handtraps a lot more equal. Also, based on the SHS opponent's hand, you could've gotten FTK-ed, and board breakers don't really help against that
depends, a single triple tactics talent is sometimes enough to just take the appollousa and then you go for an otk. Its all relative and situational. I have played many many games using these go 2nd cards and often 1 Boardbreaker was more than enough so long as it was the unresolvable ones. The people that can play around would be decks that can search a omni negate trap. When you start playing against omni negate traps then you need 2 breakers because some of the un-respondable cards can be played around by traps.
I agree. Snake eyes you need at least two board breakers because even if you droplet, lava golem, dark ruler, etc they can rebuild their field from the graveyard, bring out their masquerana in the spell / trap zone and then just summon underworld goddess to negate your field and kill your strongest monster
Yeah but that one cost your normal summon. You always wanna choose your tech cards around what your main engine can and can't afford to lose. Normal summon are more often something you can not give up.
Do you build your going-second decks to have a plan when forced to go first? Thats the gamble when going all-in on board breakers. I usually use enemy controller instead of one of the normal spell board breakers for this reason
That happens sometimes! Good go second decks also can combo well too and not to big a deal if made to go first. Funny enough, You can fit more extenders and starters then regular handtrap decks because you have to play through more. I wouldn't just empty board pass because there are usually alot of plays to make going 1st. If your scared of mikanko or something else, A Set superpoly/ or triple tactics talent to look at the hand could be more than enough to win and it comes down to mostly being deck dependant and good deckbuilding. Good go 2nd decks should deckbuild to be able to have combo 85%+ of the time and be playing through interruption. So if they make you go first you don't have to worry about the interruption part and just combo.
Honestly though how many times are you going to be forced to go first. You just kinda figure it out if it happens lol. Thankfully going second cards can be used defensively a lot of the time
thats why i love runick. it just plays through boards with only engine.. nothing feels as good as opening freezing curses, flashing fire, triple tactics talents, destruction and a sacred tree..
@@Otzkar Runick + ice barrier you can either go Lancea or make a extra deck just to deck out oponent, focusing on lvl 9 crock to recover from ash. works even around 50-55 pile deck, you just want to buy time.
While i agree with the theory i think it is naive to think that 1 boardbreaker is enough to stop a deck. Like None of those boardbreakers would stop for example a Puppet Lock, Still having to draw 2 boardbreakers still better. Also going 2nd u can draw 3 HTS and be fine since u also didnt include the 6th card of possible engine here.
Very true,what is interesting is that The math for drawing 3 handtraps still loses to the odds to draw 2 board breakers. Puppet Lock also is a very nieche example of an extremely tailored counter example that is represented by less than 1% of the player base. But if you are in such a scenario, You would have to rely on side decking games 2 & 3 to rely on the victory. The inconsistency of such locks will prevent them from being commonplace. You can put in blowout counters to aid in games 2 & 3 for trap heavy gimmick decks if that becomes a problem in the future which need to be addressed. For now Snakeyes and the 20 handtrap meta seems to be the deck to beat.
Great video again! I actually just changed my Dogmatika Ritual build as a going 2nd to resolve my Dogmatikamatrix better besides the 6 cards in hand. Definitely wayy better than my previous handtrap build. Also, Pankratops brings so much value in one card as a summon that doesn't start a chain, has good stats, and a dodging effect into a pop so I would indeed recommend it too
- Handtraps can be used going first or second. Board breakers can't (except Super Poly). So it can't back up your own board. - One board breaker often isn't enough to entirely break a board,. We even saw this in your example duel. - Board breakers are dead if you get Secret Village, Puppet or Scythe locked etc... where a handtrap may have prevented that. Your own example duel proved this. - If you let one card resolve in Yugioh it can accrue a massive amount of advantage. This is not worth the trade of for using board breakers instead because they will have infinite follow up. - There's no game plan with a blind second deck for when forced to go first. This is less of a factor in Master Duel because it is not real Yugioh. - Your example duel is not representative and in fact proves that board breakers should not be used in place of hand traps. Dogmatika is already one of the better blind second decks but ironically, it would have lost to a single handtrap. An Imperm or Alba Zoa making your Dogmatikas affected, an Ash on Matrix etc... You got incredibly lucky, the board breakers didn't help you win that one, it was the fact your opponent WASN'T playing hand traps that allowed you to win, combined with the fact that Dogmatika has lots of removal and doesn't need the Extra Deck. If you were playing any other deck, you had already lost because of the Scythe lock you couldn't prevent due to playing board breakers instead of hand traps.
He (edit: refering to the video, i agree on most of the OP) had a good reasoning but didnt explained the actual pro/cons of ht Vs board breakers. The thing is ht are way easy to play and to deckbuild with, while board breakers are probably way better fixed a certain match but they are usually not versatile enough, imo the only exception is droplet and enemy controller as you can set them and they work fine if you go first. The lack of understanding of this is obv by the deck presented as its a dogmatica pile that have like half of ed as targets for super poly and ultimate slayer. The problem is there are no good decks that have that extra deck space outside of few exception that are usually tier2 at best. Also i wanna mention super poly as an example: super poly sucks right now but its really good in yubel. Drnm is a -1 against the arguably tier0 deck atm and also you cant play it in tenpai for example. They are all format dependant but also deck dependant, you cant afford like half of them depending on what you play unless its stun pile. Another big problem is: ftks. If the superheavy in the video was playing the ftk instead of scyte (wich is an ftk against 90% of decks) you would not get to play. Branded have puppet lock, there is calamity, hell even SE ash is a 1 card ftk if they commit 2 extra deck slots for it and if the format will develop into going second no ht somehow, i bet someone will get a ycs top with that shit. Ps: 1 of my few decks i have irl is runick live twin spright and i have 6 non engine slots where i have 3 droplet and 3 evenly. Im not an ht fun and do believe that board breakers can work but you need to understand the format, your deck and what make sense. And i'm not going blind second with a runick deck xd if i can i just set droplet or discard evenly for hugin
Very interesting topic (at least the strict math portion), appreciate u sharing it. Of course the are some nits that can be picked, since some things do seem a tad oversimplified, but overall i still think we can learn some things from this. Also Jesse, u can consider adding timestamps for future vids, so its easier when someone wants to go back to a specific part like the "handtraps paradox" part, etc.
Great feedback! Noted! I will learn the timestamps process and have that for future videos. Thank you for this suggestion to make the channel/content better. Glad you liked the topic! Thanks for watching
I'm hoping with the way Konami is going, decks will be built and evolve to constantly play around 2 handtraps and theorycrafters/deckbuilders/innovaters will be 1 step ahead of the netdeckers :)
oh awesome! Im going to check out your channel now! maybe there are some things that you do that i can improve upon. sometimes i feel i miss out on so much things that i want to say. For example after this was made I saw so much I left out like TY-PHOON, change of heart and maybe alot of the other various 180 cards that say "if your opponent controls a card" that I could have highlighted more.
I think the main takeaway is that if you already have a lot of hand traps in the main you can easily max out on board breakers going second since you will pretty much always go second at least once a match. Feel like just about every side deck card is specifically for going second anyways besides your judgements and strikes or floodgates (rip summon limit lmao). Sometimes it’s best to stop the board than break it but both are valid options Id say
Cool video. Imo it misrepresents the situation a bit. If going second is so great why isnt everyone doing that? Well there are many reasons. One thing that I noticed is that you equated the effect of 2 handraps to a single board breaker. This might be true against some decks,but in the current tcg format that is not the case. The current best deck in the tcg, snake eyes fire king, does not lose to a single boardbreaker. Why is that the case, because the interruptions are varied and spread out across different parts of the game(the field,the grave,the backrow,the hand). 2 h.t.'s can stop them from getting to that position in the 1st place. You were also , intentionally or not, misleading with the example you showed in ss samurai. The endboard absolutely folded to a single board breaker that you conveniently drew. Theres also the question of followup,yeah you might break their board,but they still have their resources loop set-up,can you compete with that as well? If youre not playing the best deck or are not otk-ing them that turn, probably not.
I legit think that "no one is doing it" because people are so hard stuck to "meta" things. If theres at least a slight meta in any game, people will stick to it no matter what. No matter if they think it's actually good, actually fun, etc. Theres just a very small amount of people who do not refuse to play anything but meta things. People get told Going-First is better? They will stick to it, even if it brings them nothing but loses. It's been always like this in games. Videogames, cardgames, etc.
@@Luna-Starfrost unchained. No one thought that deck was good until Pak (or who was it) to it and wooped ass with it. Many competitive players are looking for new stuff that could defeat the current meta.
@@Luna-Starfrostthat is sometimes the case, no format is ever fully solved, but it's not true here Snake eye decks for example don't lose to a single board breaker for the reasons the op stated, no board breaker can hit the monster zones, backrow, gy and hand at the same time Also floodgate/turnskip decks don't lose to board breakers and there have been plenty of those in the past few years Rn the most prominent one is branded with droplet being the only board breaker that can stop the puppet lock, and also the only one that can stop centurion and calamity Another good example is mikanko, originally a blind 2nd deck themselves, but they only won a ycs after ken and gen gave them the ability to go 1st and floodgate the opponent out of the game with acid golem, what are board breakers gonna do here?
"The endboard absolutely folded to a single board breaker that you conveniently drew." the example cut the merit of having that card in the deck? i mean, if the second turn player was a snake eyes that drew the same card, are we just when saying that deck had unfair gameplay? Even it is a rogue deck doing headaches against meta, they choose the cards to make it. There are people with 6 hand traps, other people with 16 hand traps, and they can change the tide of second turn, but still have GY and backrow to suppont the monsters. Called by the grave and ghost belle werent mentioned, but works well against snake eyes/fire king mechanics, but people seems to either have lack of resources to put cards in deck or even understmate their efficacy. 1 Maxx, 1 ash, 1 crossing out, 1 infinite impermanece and 2 called by grave are the minimum handtraps needed for first turn, but leaves you a space to play second at MD. Ghost belle enters here at second turn for example. one or 2 is fine, as she doesnt do a thing at first turn, unless you face bystials. Also, in the new pack, maybe this later year, we will have MD with new had traps with less conditions and more efficacy, that one which you will be restricted to only summon DARK, FIRE and WATER. If that enters in MD, less fear against SS from GY, which boardbreakers cannot access. The "new maxx C too"... who knows?
So... there's a type of fallacious logic (meaning an argument whose logic does not actually support the conclusion it claims to reach) called an appeal to popularity. The basic logic of this fallacy takes the form of either "it is popularly believed, therefore it is true" or "it is not popularly believed, therefore it is false". The reason this logic is fallacious is because a person believing something does not make this true, which logically means the number of people who believe something cannot affect whether it is true either.
13:21 You know what, this was a realization for me. I play a lot of master duel but I also watch a lot of Jaiden BR, he's a HERO main who, *every season* , climbs to Master 1, with Heroes. Now he does play Ash Maxx C and Called By like everyone else in master duel, but he also plays Super-Poly, Forbidden Droplet, and recently, Destiny Hero Plasma. Heroes are also inherently good into a boardbreaking strategy because you inherently have room for cards like super-poly. But *Watching* his videos there was always that moment where he'd be down, and he'd need some big play to out his opponent's board, and, heart of the cards, its droplet.
That's just math. The power of defensively oriented strategy is that the more attempts you get, the more likely the "lucky" outcome occurs. HERO can be annoyingly resilient, and is pretty good at slowly and methodically picking apart boards thanks to DPE.
I'm not really agree here, the math is ok but unless you play a specific deck for going second, there are a lots more things to concern. Going second card is really tricky. Not every decks will just die by you dropping 1 going second card, or will just leave you to combo-off like nothing. some decks even need specific answer to shut down it. HT, Gy, eff, follow up can be a thing to distrupt your play. Especially lingering eff like dweller, spell/trap to distrupt for example. Your deck also has to be very suitable with it, something like ninja, salamangreat are not as good to out opp board. Many of their decks combo can be distrupted and that can shutdown your game too, you have to both fufil the condition of clearing opp board and gaining enough advantage to make sure opp can’t come back by. These 2nd can be a big opportunity for 1 turn while can be a big downside if you can't use it's short advantage to switch the game. Most people prefer ht because of it's versatiles can be use in almost any decks, while going second cards depend on situation. Ht can be use both to distrupt minor opp plays or right now in the meta, it can be a bonus distrupt for opp plays. Many good decks play around ht, they lowered the opp final board so their deck can play out it. It's not just about people dropping full going second cards because in this meta when many ht, other kinds of distrupt like spell/trap, lingerring eff and recovery, sometimes you don't have an ability to end opp board (Something like boss monster) and have to invest more about out opp resources. That is where 2nd cards is weaker in this aspect, because who knows opp will prepare any things for 2nd turns? You sure you could both out the board and set enough distrupt to stop opp? And Side deck problems, you can make sure you win when opp went first, but in 2nd, 3rd game you still have to side deck to change playstyle, because with opp side deck like summon-limit(ban), floodgates, anti ht like triple, control cards like kash,... Your normal board needs to have more supports and the case of you going 2nd and out opp board will be less likely by their specific counter cards. Also, you need to check if your deck has answer 2nd cards for spell/trap decks, midrange or combo decks. Overall I appriciate your math, but when come into a real game state, players will prefer for more control thing like going 1st, set up your board rather than hope for only going second cards.
You're logic is great, it's just funny (not wrong I'm just weird) you used salad as the bad going second example cause I've been playing going second salad. Its not quite good, but I have a fantastic (70-90%) win rate rn because I play the deck way too much and am good with it
@@whiteshadow2535 let me take back about it a bit. I agree salad has some plan for going second, even good with xyz, code talker combo,... But even before or right now sticking into control/board with is better in general. Let's opp combo is really risky when you can't control your board. Sure winning with 2nd deck otk is very satisfying, but in game 2, 3 when opp fliped sth like anti-spell, skilldrain, stun deck, lingering eff, rip-off hand,... ,or just siding ht. It's struggle alot, and let's not talking about if you lose game 1, opp knows your deck playstyle and now they let you go first:(
The only types of decks that actively want to go first are control and stun. Aggro wants the battle phase as early as possible and midrange wants the extra card. Those are the fundamentals of each archetypal strategy. And even control decks can recover quickly going second anyway. Stun decks rely heavily on silver bullet floodgates in the first place, so their effectiveness isn't really changed much between first and second, even though setting up earlier makes it easier to pick apart the board later. All of the specific math goes AFTER figuring out the general preferences of the strategy. And those general preferences already lean toward going second.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 I don’t think yubel will choose to go second when I can literally use that deck to ftk opp with full distruption and follow up:)
yeah there is so much unexplored area here. Over 180 cards that say "if your opponent controls a monster" that dogmatika matrix card was better than pot of greed! it got me 2 dogmatik cards and then let me send a card from ED as well. Crazy! But yeah cards like change of heart, typhoon, book of moon so many going 2nd cards that can be explored more but really don't get their chance to shine.
I think this is a nice argument for going second. There is a lot of merit to what you said and it's going to be even better going second now with less generic negation and some more and more good going second cards being released. That being said, there are two things that make going second a difficult strategy to bet on: 1. lingering floodgates. 2. Towers monsters (if you haven't drawn exactly the out). If the meta didn't have either of these things, I think, yes, going second would be viable.
@@rCrypto_Frog4148 ice barrier have all the floodgates, Raiho is the obligatory one (pays one card for any monster effect, until you have full negation on monsters), the others works like anti spell frag, but they arent necessary. If you draw no negation hand trap in your hand it will be a headache. The boss Lancea likes superpoly/kaiju/banishment because of float effect, but if you dont have called by the grave in this very circunstational ocasion, you lose one grave, one field and one hand because of trishula. Theorically -4 in your the second turn.
Trying this approach at the moment in TCG with my DLink. I don't know exactly why, but I find myself more comfortable with the deck since I made the change. Previously tough matchups suddenly turn free wins (like Labrinth for example). Plus I love the surprise factor, on game one nobody expects the board breakers; on game 2 I can even switch to play the handtraps on my side deck. Its so versatile, and I love it. This approach has been an incredible discovery for me and I think it suits perfectly my game style. Thank you!
In Master Duel in particular, if you want to play a 'going second' deck, finding a way to take advantage of the going 2nd cards when you go first is important. Horus, for example, can discard the going 2nd cards you drew when you went first for additional value. Reminds me of the Jesse made in the deck building video, where generally discarding for value is an extremely powerful effect due to how it safeguards you from bad mulligans.
I would like to see videos about the following: 1) Mathematically optimal deck building rules in Master Duel. Is it necessary to account for going second and is it okay to run a certain amount of going second only cards? 2) An explanation of the significance of 85%, in general statistics and how it applies to YGO deck building. 3) Building decks for specific archetypes using statistics.
Thank you for the suggestions! I am currently in the process of making a video similar to your #3 suggestion! and then the number 2 suggestion i have in the works a couple of videos later! Thank you for watching and great comment! I love when people post suggestions many of my videos have come from these suggestions please always post them if they are content you want to see or things that you want to get better.
Ive been playing a going 2nd striker eldlich (currently at 60 cards) board breaker deck since the launch of master duel with my longest win streak being 37. I love going 2nd
appreciate it! i try to make numbers fun and really enjoy the math aspect of these kind of things. Glad i found so many people that share that same passion. Thanks for watching!
Happy about this video as i decided about two years ago to stop playing handtrap and going full going second with board breakers. I am not sure it is the way to go for every deck but it was the case for my pure Shaddoll build. Another virtue of board breakers is that they are less prone to misplay than handtraps. Therefore it was easier for me who was pretty new to the game. Nice video !
At the end of the day it comes down to luck and preference. There was a regional where I drew Droll going 2nd as my 6th card vs Mannadium. I think most players prefer hand traps atm cuz going 2nd, it is one of the 5 starting cards to prevent your opp from getting too much advantage and if you go first, you can layer hand traps with your usual board to surprise your opponent. Duster and evenly are only ok cuz they can get rid of boards but not hand traps. Good insight regardless and I think it will ultimately depend on the user and their playstyle. Some decks like Kash inherently have Fenrir as a boardbreaker in tcg so might not need as many non engine ones.
Your comment is right on the mark! At the end of the day it is preference. My goal was to just let people know hey there is a completely other "chess opening" here that is relatively unexplored especially for many people who get dissatisfied with tier 0 metas. Alot of people are comfortable with handtraps because its also all they know and spent so much time learning where to ash vs what decks etc. Now they have to learn when to superpoly or what ED to use for ultimate slayer and that could overwhelm some people who are slow learners.
Decks that play around Evenly are rare, but boards that do that just make it easier for you to not need Evenly. And from there, you just keep it in your hand as an emergency board breaker to even the odds later.
I've ALWAYS loved running Raigeki and Harpie's Feather Duster in my main deck, plus they were my favorite childhood spell cards. It'd be amazing if they came up with cards that function like Raigeki, Harpie's Feather Duster, and Mirror Force but banish instead of destroying. I'm running 2 Kurikara, 2 Raigeki, 2 Super Polymerization and 2 Dark Ruler No More in my side deck. The Dark Ruler No More + Raigeki combo is nice. If I played Master Duel, then I'd probably have to main deck Dark Ruler No More.
Raigeki and Duster aren't ideal, but they're still powerhouses when drawn at the right time. Generally I don't want to see a Raigeki or Duster in my opening hand, but I'm almost always happy to see them on turn 7.
I'm going to write this comment while watching so i don't forget stuff 0. Are we talking Master duel or actual TCG? 1. 2 HTs is not necessarely the optimal number,it depends on your deck and the format itself 2. Destroying cards IS NOT BAD,triggering floating effects/baiting negates at your whim and not when your opponents wants to is a big factor in breaking a board 3. Calling Gameciel better than NIb,Evenly or imperm is straight up ignoring the huge utilty that those cards offer in a wide format,also the impact they can have going first 4. ironic that we call Lighting storm bad cause it destroys and then sing the prays of Ultimate Slayer send Ntss 5. while Spoly is strong,not a 2for1 but a 2+forX(where 2+ is the number of cards you spend,and X is the number of cards you manage to spoly away,which can vary a lot) 6. Ever noticed that archetypes better are going second are usually bad? like the ninjas you showed? 7. We're not even considering the existance of Turn Ending Handtraps in this discussion So,while the math is good,the video is deeply flawed in its logic Hope to see better from you in the future
Thanks for taking the time to comment I will try to address the points made: I address both master duel and TCG for various points in the video and address both formats sorry if I was unclear at certain points I will work on that. 2 HTs are the optimal number because your other 3 cards need to be starter/extender/utility card because you will likely be handtraped and interrupted in some way. Evenly, Nib and Imperm is great! They are just better regulated for side deck not main deck unless you want to gamble vs your opponent. The unrespondable Ultimate slayer Spins and won't neccessarily destroy unless you send n'tss and you can choose to send n'tss who destroys or draw 1 with garura. The utility is much stronger then the mandatory destruction of raigeki which can be negated/blocked/dodged etc. Remember super poly also makes a body. Mudragon gives you protection, garura gives you a draw, Venom Dragon gives you OTK potential ect. Its more than a 2 for 2. Ninjas are amazing. However, Its one of the hardest decks to use. I have seen top players misplay with ninjas its one of the most underrated decks imo. Not beginner friendly at all. I can send you replays of just pure domination. In some formats I had over 80% win ratio with ninjas (Kash format the perma setting facedown with jioh was basically instawin) I address turn ending handtraps like Maxx C which I consider in the video is so powerful you still have to play. It baits the ash etc. The other turn ending handtraps could be droll which in the replay i was playing at 1 copy for crossout and talk about etc. So I do talk about if your deck is struggling vs turn ending handtraps what you can do to play around them. EX add more called bys or other cards to counter. All in all the video is supposed to challenge the viewer to make their deck better and reconsider this 20+ handtrap meta and I just provide the math. I would need to look at every deck in an individual basis to truely get down to look at nitty gritty. However, I really appreciate the time you took to comment. And i am happy you watched the video. I will also on my end try to improve my content to make things more understandable because I can see my points were missed and that is something I can improve upon. Thank you so much for watching I am very appreciative.
I have no idea on how MD Is being played RN but i do agree that 20hts are too much,but you see,for last tcg format (prebanlist) 3hts was arguably better than 2,slayer being unrespondable is very relative,a lot of meta decks can use a spell or trap to respond to it and than chain a must resolve monster,also for example,take Branded in TCG,there is not boardbreaker that can respond or prevent the puppet lock if Branded Lost is on the field,while Handtraps can,that alone would make you run Handtraps in main or you risk losing game 1 by default in that matchup (and it 's not the only one)
@@giuseppepepe4404I feel like my response to this would be that there is a reason we have a side deck. I'm not gonna prepare my main deck for an ftk if only a few people play it but better believe that my side deck will try to address it
When i said Dryton, in my head i was thinking the "herald of ultimate" variant. But actually Pure drytron especially with the new cards looks to be very powerful and has plays for going 1st and 2nd! Sorry for the confusion!
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming hey Jesse, good to know and thank you! I'm using drytron for my BLS support and with your deck building tips its seems veeery nice. Works perfect for me. btw, u have very strong speaker skills! Keep it up. Love ur video style!
Yes, I mention if you can't play through 1 hand trap then using talent, putting called by, gamma or crossout packages is fine to increase playthrough rate. In the game showcased I had a small crossout package. (i took it out because after more games i realized i did'nt need it and dind't come up) It really is game to game and the correct ratios/decks if you can play through a trap or 2. Much gameplay knowledge is needed for the deckbuilding process and there is no real netdeck for these.
@JessePerezStrategyGaming Imagine actually building a mathematically-correct optimal non-engine net deck package and teaching it in Dueling class, only for it to get downvoted into oblivion if it doesn't main 3 Ashes. 😂
Bruv stumbled upon your videos since my recommended videos are mainly yu gi oh shizzle but your channel is really sublimely good to get me to understand the statistics behind deckbuilding and such and such!! Really nice, keep it up boiiii
I gave up building turn one boards a while ago. Now I just tune out once I'm out of interruptions and just ask what I'm playing through. Invoked with purg is a nasty board breaker. I also was playing skull servant until they took linkuriboh
Hey man you are making a crucial mistake here. You are completely ignoring LINGERING effects and overall floodgates AND Ftk decks that either make you unable to play with a lingering effect on your turn (which only QUICK PLAY board breakers can deal with) one example for this in master duel is the super heavy samurai level 12 engine and another is the bombardment bird ftk that snake-eye decks can splash in without much difficulty. The logic behind hand traps vs board breakers is that combo decks are not as linear as most Yugioh players think. There are predominantly 4 types of going-first decks and some decks mix and mash these to get a mixed result; 1) Negate board. These decks aim to trade 1 for 1 with your starters and board breakers to make you unable to kill them and then they have their recursion to kill you. 2) Floodgates. These decks aim to shut down a very core mechanic almost every deck needs to otk and shut that shit down. These can be legless and hard drawn as well and can even play around hand traps if you are playing hard draw reliant versions which are generally called "stun". 3) Going first decks that imitate going second decks. These are usually the most oppressive decks in the game whenever they come around luckily they are not common in the last decade. These decks search going second cards and add them to their hand while creating a minimally resistant board. An old example of this would be tour guide to summon sangan then use both as xyz mat to summon zenmaines or any xyz 3 you could detach easily from to search either effect veiler or maxx c. 4) Last one is the rarest among them. Hand loop decks. These can be characterized as "ftk" decks but the core difference is that with the graveyard effects powerscaling AND 1 card combos these decks are usually no longer easy ftk decks because you can still from grave and draw a starter. These decks typically can't either full hand loop you or can't produce a "no you don't effect" alongside the loop. Board breakers are good against negate boards and usually fold to the other 3. I also made a new deck and @ you in your discord which basically is a 3rd type of deck. The reason board breakers were bad in the previous tcg meta was because going first player had 18 hand traps did full combo thinning deck then drew 3 cards and then stopped you with hand traps which you can't interact with as a going second player effectively. The heatsoul and spoils drew in total 3 cards which was the enabler.
I just tried out sky strikers with the advice...omg i had like droplet, super poly, ultimate slayer and so many other power spells vs a snake eyes board
I'm actually thinking of replacing all my non engine cards in MD with board breakers (except for imperm and maxx c, I guess?). I almost never win the coin toss anyway, lol.
Genuinely a very interesting and lovely math video! Because of how I have relied on Ash, Imperm, that I didn't think about forbidden droplet and the kaijus. Thank you! Time to run it back
Depends on how heavily their strategy relies on going first. Negate spam is going to struggle more going second than the going second deck will struggle to play through fewer points of disruption than normal.
Before watching the video, i started going second because Josh Schmidt was talking about enjoying the game figuring out how to break boards with his sky striker deck at a tourney. I enjoy it to be honest. I let you do you just so i can rip that shit to shreds. And laugh at you when I OTK you that turn without a chance to respond. Its fun. Glad I made the switch
Thoughts on Metaltronios? If they nib you can Go into Galaxy eyes Cipher> Galaxy Eye Armor, pop>exchange into Galaxy Eye Cipher Blade and pop a 2nd card and push. Also quickplay so it's defensive as well. Malicious is to S:P (dark warrior) and I:P (Dark 100atk). Coiuld be like an Etele for Malicious lol
Some other ones that I didn't highlight also that are very good/ versitile depending on the meta are Typhoon, enemy controller, kurikara, book of moon, and change of heart.
Great video. Love the data-driven perspective you offer. I want to add some criticism to help make your arguments stronger. One thing you want to mention in your statistics: you want to pull two handtraps/going second cards *with different names*. Going second and drawing two DRNM or super poly is a dead card. Gamaciel is an exception because you can use the second as either another removal spell after getting rid of the first, as an extra body. So I’d like to see the calcs of running multiple two-of going second cards versus three-of of fewer cards. Now, why did it take until 15:29 to mention Thrust and Talents? First, Talents the most versatile, powerful, with less commitment than any other card you mentioned. A card your audience already knows is good. Second, Thrust’s ability to act as a wild card vastly increases the consistency of drawing these outs. Except better because you can grab the one that’s best in this situation. Mentioning Thrust earlier would allow you to add its wildcard status to your statistics, making your argument much stronger. Plus, thrust can let you run situational one-of cards you can search with it. For example, evenly into rescue ace or non-synchro snake eye fields. Finally, get that anecdotal evidence crap out here (joking). You’re the statistics man. Show me statistics. There are add-ons to help you track win rates. These add-ons can give you great data like the win rate of the cards you suggest. Now, doing that by yourself, I’d expect a sample size of about 10 non-outlier duels. Even better would be if you could your community, or ask someone else’s community, to get you more data. That last bit will be harder to do until your channel gets bigger. So I’d check if you can filter these tools, like Untapped, for the kinds of duels you’re looking for. If the tool doesn’t let you directly, chances are you can ask them for the data you’re looking for. Edit: you could also grab your data from tournament runners.
From the main going second cards he suggested, only DRNM is bad in multiple copies. All the others dont have a once per turn clause or discard, so u can discard the duplicate for eg if your draw 2 droplets.
yeah it took me a long time to mention thrust lol and there was so many cards i didn't even mention! TY-PHOON, change of heart, book of moon, enemy controller all have their places in various formats or side deck. In any event great comment! Great suggestions always looking to improve thank you so much for the help.
I like the fact that you ignored the other line of having at least 2 hand traps; if you play 16 handtraps, the probability of you having more than 2 is like another 30 percent. Having only 2 card to combo is quite rough
This video is exactly what the Yugioh community needs. I have believed this for so long, but i know its not a popular theory because theres not as much evidence to prove its viable. But this video ceetainly helps. And going into the current TCG format, its going to be impossible to shut down players even with two hand traps. Thank you for making this video. I loved the replay too, you absolutely destroyed that Super heavy player. I would love for you to take some of the things people have said here in the commenrs and make a follow up video with your thoughts! Dont let the close-minded critics get to you! Keep being amazing! ❤
i also find if im planning to go 2nd i dont focus as much on my opponent "lines" and where to interrupt them leaving me more brain power to figure out what im going to do.
ive always believed that going second was the better option in yugioh but could never seem to make it work... (reason being I was to focused on using board breakers) now that you have broken it down especially with the math and statistics as well with the correct cards to use going second im very happy i came across the video. I will definitely be giving it another shot and excited to see the results... now i just need to get my hands on a play set of ultimate slayer and droplet. I never saw the utility in ultimate slayer until now.. mark my words going second will be much more dominate over the next year or two in yugioh. I guess were just ahead of the curve now. Many thanks!
I currently am tinkering with my marincess deck and I like to play 2 triple talents and 2 forbidden droplet for game 1 as I don’t know if I will win the coin flip and I feel like those cards do well in simplified game states. However I don’t have 3 of each because I want to minimize the chance of drawing multiple copies. I still run a lot of hand traps. But infinite impermanence (which I believe is a must include) also can act as a pseudo board breaker in it of itself part of why it is such a great handtrap. Especially because marincess already cycles an archetypal negate that you want to save for your opponent’s turn in wave. So you can have the freedom to hold imperm in hand.
That is a great strat. Dropplet, tactics, and Impermanence all can work BOTH going 1st and 2nd so there is benefits to how your playing your deck. At the same time your not running too many of them either so you substantially lower the chances of drawing more than 2 copies in your hand. I like it! 👍
i have it in my discord! discord.gg/k4XyfvBnhS the list is posted as well as some members posted their going 2nd decks that have found success for them. come check it out! In any event, thanks for watching!
interesting card that i didn't mention that is a decent/good go 2nd card is change of heart. you can take their spellcaster and be free from the village lock. if your playing alot of secret village in locals or what not that could be a good side/or even main option depending on the quantity/representation of players using it.
Jesse you’re goated for going against the grain and being creative and trying to experiment with new things, regardless of whether you are right or not, you should keep up the great work. One day you’ll change the game
In the current format I feel the issue with handtraps is that when you give up going first these decks accrue massive advantage, you need to spend cards to get onto the board and then you often get hit by the same handtraps anyway. That said I've been a blind second enjoyer who plays a lot of Mekk so I'm down to try. Especially with Ninja since it usually goes first but that turns off their strongest card.
Dogmatka, Tenpai, Ancient Warriors, War Rock, 8 AXIS, Mikanko, Cyber Dragon, True Draco. You can even talor some decks to go second like Scareclaw and OTK with the multiple attacks etc. There is alot of playing around with but if a deck can power up strong otk potential, or break boards and create a strong control then usually they make great going 2nd decks.
Bro uses Master duel as an example while using Maxx C. Of course your board breakers are gonna do more cause your drawing more of them. Plus you have a towers that's unaffected by ED monsters its pretty hard to out. Certain board breakers are better then others doesn't mean you should play them over other ones. Hand traps are best when a deck is to strong to break alone. This is where formats develop people will figure out if a format is a board breaker one or a handtrap one and go from there. Also I could just not draw any board breakers or draw all of them vise versa with handtraps nothing is guaranteed in this game it all depends on what you draw what your opp draws and how skilled each other are to play this 2 player game.
I got Maxx C'ed and played through it my first turn. It was the large card advantage my deck generated that allowed me to draw find one in the later turns. At that point though I already won. If anything it showcased how your deck can play through their maxx c and has a strong survival when you cant finish.
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming Or they just don't have a card that can out a 4k unaffected beater plus you dont need to summon from the ED since your deck locks you out of it. Any deck can play board breaks or handtraps it just tailors how you many you play and whether you go first or second. I play Kashtira at my locals my old side deck was tailored to try and kill I playedstuff like lava golem and lightning storms but that was 2 3 formats ago now im just purely handtraps in main with 1 set of board breakers in my side since id rather handtraps this format most of the time.
Also handtraps are just better in general then a board breaker if your opponent makes you go first with a bunch of breakers your not gonna do much. and decks in general have many choke points so its better to exploit them then letting them pop off
I've been playing full spells sky striker blind 2nd with 3 snatch steal, 2 CoH, 3 mind control, 3 ls, 1 raigeki, 1 heavy storm, 3 cosmic and it works great against this yubel meta. My hardest matchup so far is centurion
I always enjoy going blind second, feels more fun for me. I'd say board breakers are great for slower decks since usually a player would just vomit out most of their Extra Deck turn 1, and breaking their board means their ceiling will reduce as well (i.e. snake-eye can recover a lot of their cards, but Aposula ain't one of them), so their turn 3 board will be much easier to break. Plus, with the new banlist getting rid of 2 of the most prominent omni-negators that most decks can use, it means that your board breakers are more likely to go off.
Little PSA a good option to deal with the strategy he's covering in the video is siding 3 judgement and 3 floodgates
2 місяці тому+1
Actually I love going second because I feel more rewarded when I brake my opp board than just doing the same 10 min combo to set 7 negates. I play Mikanko btw
Board breakers is a much more enjoyable playstyle. One of the problems with board breakers is finding the right engines to pair them with: can play through an interruption doesn't need its normal summon, doesn't need too much extra deck space
our discord has alot of people theroycrafting and using these decks in TCG and master duel. We would love for you to come on and have a look! discord.gg/f3kfYNtnzr
Man this is confirmation for me!!! I came to this realization that I would build a blind 2nd deck with Heroes then side deck out for games 2 & 3 to go first (depending on match up if I need to set up Dark Law/ Dark Angel). Something like Snake Eyes plays thru handtraps far too easily. Most decks can't play 16+ handtraps AND consistently combo. So I'm enjoying the going 2nd style so far cuz it's alot better to just break their board (hopefully enough gas to OTK) and set up so they can't come back!
Plot twist: He's trying to convince us to go second so that he can go first all the time.
And to flip some floodgates then 😂
@@dominikschneiter3895and to not play duster and lightning storm so the flood gates stay
As someone who tried out blind second in masterduel here are my general takes on board breakers:
1. Against decks like branded or snake-eyes, they often have lots of recovery which board breakers normally wont stop and handtraps would. This is especially relevant for cards like drnm which ensure opp gets another turn.
2. One board breaker is often not enough, and there are ways decks can play around board breakers like committing to varied interruptions like combining traps, gy effects, and on field negates. Not every deck will, but the ones that do will screw you over. Not to mention ftks/burn that will show up every couple games.
3. For a bo1 like masterduel, lot of board breakers are more situational than handtraps like ash blossom (imagine you drew drnm against lab, you’d lose)
4. They often have much larger costs than handtraps. The “cost” of nibiru giving the opponent a token is kinda nonexistent. The cost of drnm or evenly giving up your battle phase ensures the opp gets a second turn. Or ultimate slayer or superpoly forcing you to spend extra deck spots.
Plus if you have a in-archetype lock like a lot of rogue decks, you can still play nibiru but cant play cards like kaijus.
There is a reason blind second decks like mikanko and numeron dont see much competitive play.
Because they are quite bricky? Yeah, the theory of going second only works on stuff like Duel links where you still have a 4th turn, but in general there's just way more advantages to go-first players, most notably the access to backro and having the Omni negate boss first.
20 handtraps/board breakers means our board will be flimsy quite often, vulnerable to their handtrap they kept while doing their turn, not to mention handtraps in general are situational; What will Nibiru do against Labryinth or Baronne? What will Ash do against Tear? What will Maxx C do against Floo? If you said "Nothing", that's the fundamental problem with going second, you either get negated or your boards end up too flimsy to be threatening, considering many decks can float into smaller combo pieces in case you try to break them.
Numeron used to be a good deck in the first year.
1. That's why you have an end board as well after drnm.
2. Also true for handtraps.
3. Not enough evidence for that claim. What about drawing maxx c against floo? Or shifter vs kashtira?
4. Similar costs. What about talents? Cards like that are basically the cost of handtraps.
From my personal experience, and after conducting a statistical test, at least for my control decks (runick stun, antimeta, floo...) playing board breakers over handtraps improves the winrate.
@@sergiocarrasco9762
1. You have an end board while still have to handle opp monsters, make sure you can stop their recover. It's not very task for many decks. Not to mention about other kind of distrupt. Set up a board in 1st is different in 2nd to win. Even opp has no interupt
2. HT can be use to reduce the power of end board, even 1 good choke point can stop every uppcoming recover or extend distrupt like spell/trap or lingering eff so you can play around. Not to mention HT is more versatiles, while going second isn't for all of the side deck/main deck.
3. Do not understand, what do you mean? You can try to put drnm over ash blossom and test .
4. He used "Often", triple tatic is a card for going first too. You can still see if you compare for 2nd to clear opp play for you to combo, it's weaker.
barrone and savage dragon gone now lol
I like that you played against an extremely tough board and not too sackie because you also were Maxx Ced and Scythe locked. This was legit gameplay as it gets. Kudos for that.
The main problem is that one card accrues so much card advantage that if you dont negate it, your now down sometimes 6 cards compared to the opponent, and one board breaker wont get that back. DRNM is good, but the opponent still has all their grave yard, all their backrow, and whatever handtraps they drew.
To elaborate, if you were to kaiju A snake eye board, you spent one card to remove one fourth of a resolved snake eye ash, where impermanence stops all of snake eye ash.
DRNM in particular is not great against SE but if you are playing a deck that also is able to accrue a ton of advantage it is easy to second. If your opponents board state is negated, one super poly is sufficient to do this as mudragon prevents future targeting, your opponent has to have two non targeting handtraps to stop you. You have a much higher chance of seeing an extender than your opponent and a way to deal with the board.
I think snakeye is interesting because people play different board brakers against it like soul release or magical spring
These going 2nd cards also accrue massive advantage. Look at the matrix. Better than pot of greed added 2 cards then let me send a card from deck to ED. The power of alot of these going 2nd decks is vastly unexplored. Again over 180 cards say "when your opponent controls a card" check them out many of them generate phenomenal advantage.
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming I main Ancient Warriors, a lot of this does add up and matches what I have experienced through trial and error. The 6th card is almost never mentioned, but sometimes makes a huge difference. Guan Yun is an in archetype pankertops and more than one AW mentions an additional effect if the opponent controls a monster or more monsters than yourself. I have found that they are very under rated and by adapting staples and board breakers for each meta very little trial and error is required to learn how to defeat any deck that appears often. With the new ban list several of the common boards that I have learned how to play through have changed forcing more innovation on my part due to no longer seeing the same few monsters summoned as part of every deck's end board.
Imagen, playing Kaiju against Snake-eyes instead of Sphere-Mode lol
In a 1 game format such as Master Duel, blind second decks are generally better than they would be in other formats because in other formats, you just tech against your opponent in games 2 and 3.
Very true, there is a natural advantage there and a surprise factor as well! Good point!
unless you get FTK'd
@@cephon6198Which isnt likely. FTK decks are typically very luck based nowadays. You may get lucky going first without getting trapped but that isnt a guarentee.
I speak from experience running Gem Knight ftk in masterduel. It sounds scary until you realize that getting hand trapped at all or not getting an amazing hand in the draw can be disasterous.
Its also a coin flip as to whether you go first at all.
@@CatManThree Exodia combo ftk with isolde is hyper consistent with 0 garnets. Playing against 0 handtraps is a free win. Not many people play it tho
@@nopeno-s5r Not many people play it probably because it needs to not get hand trapped lol
The thing you're ignoring is that most of those boardbreaker aren't enough by themselves against SE. More often than not, you'll need 2 board breakers, making the math vs handtraps a lot more equal.
Also, based on the SHS opponent's hand, you could've gotten FTK-ed, and board breakers don't really help against that
depends, a single triple tactics talent is sometimes enough to just take the appollousa and then you go for an otk. Its all relative and situational. I have played many many games using these go 2nd cards and often 1 Boardbreaker was more than enough so long as it was the unresolvable ones. The people that can play around would be decks that can search a omni negate trap. When you start playing against omni negate traps then you need 2 breakers because some of the un-respondable cards can be played around by traps.
In my experience, one non responsible board breaker is sufficient to beat the SE mirror match easily
Might have a chance if MD bans Baron and Borrel.
I agree. Snake eyes you need at least two board breakers because even if you droplet, lava golem, dark ruler, etc they can rebuild their field from the graveyard, bring out their masquerana in the spell / trap zone and then just summon underworld goddess to negate your field and kill your strongest monster
@@UltracoreUltraUranium definitly going to be easier without those two in the TCG
I like these analytical videos. Im gonna need more examples with no hand traps though
LAVA GOLEM!!! I didn’t know you could search it with anything besides small world
Yeah but that one cost your normal summon. You always wanna choose your tech cards around what your main engine can and can't afford to lose. Normal summon are more often something you can not give up.
@@peterhacke6317 stun decks doesnt need normal summon all times, seems fine trade, specially those trap based decks.
@peterhacke6317 i play invoked Shaddoll and im seriously thinking about switching from Lava Golem to Kurikara divincarnate for this very reason
Do you build your going-second decks to have a plan when forced to go first? Thats the gamble when going all-in on board breakers. I usually use enemy controller instead of one of the normal spell board breakers for this reason
That happens sometimes! Good go second decks also can combo well too and not to big a deal if made to go first. Funny enough, You can fit more extenders and starters then regular handtrap decks because you have to play through more. I wouldn't just empty board pass because there are usually alot of plays to make going 1st.
If your scared of mikanko or something else, A Set superpoly/ or triple tactics talent to look at the hand could be more than enough to win and it comes down to mostly being deck dependant and good deckbuilding.
Good go 2nd decks should deckbuild to be able to have combo 85%+ of the time and be playing through interruption. So if they make you go first you don't have to worry about the interruption part and just combo.
Honestly though how many times are you going to be forced to go first. You just kinda figure it out if it happens lol. Thankfully going second cards can be used defensively a lot of the time
First reading, now math? Yu-Gi-Oh is getting out of hand
If is wasn’t for goofy ah locks like puppet and secret village I’d never play a handtrap especially after using the runick engine lol
I think you simply put in handtraps in side to adjust for those strategies
thats why i love runick. it just plays through boards with only engine.. nothing feels as good as opening freezing curses, flashing fire, triple tactics talents, destruction and a sacred tree..
Fr tho 😭 I stared testing it with white woods it’s insane
@@Otzkar Runick + ice barrier you can either go Lancea or make a extra deck just to deck out oponent, focusing on lvl 9 crock to recover from ash. works even around 50-55 pile deck, you just want to buy time.
While i agree with the theory i think it is naive to think that 1 boardbreaker is enough to stop a deck. Like None of those boardbreakers would stop for example a Puppet Lock,
Still having to draw 2 boardbreakers still better.
Also going 2nd u can draw 3 HTS and be fine since u also didnt include the 6th card of possible engine here.
Very true,what is interesting is that The math for drawing 3 handtraps still loses to the odds to draw 2 board breakers.
Puppet Lock also is a very nieche example of an extremely tailored counter example that is represented by less than 1% of the player base. But if you are in such a scenario, You would have to rely on side decking games 2 & 3 to rely on the victory. The inconsistency of such locks will prevent them from being commonplace. You can put in blowout counters to aid in games 2 & 3 for trap heavy gimmick decks if that becomes a problem in the future which need to be addressed. For now Snakeyes and the 20 handtrap meta seems to be the deck to beat.
Well said, even in the gameplay showcase, if the super heavy player decided to summon calamity it would just otk a board breaker strategy.
The funny thing about Maxx “C” is it plus junk synchron is full synchron combo 😂
Lemao
Great video again! I actually just changed my Dogmatika Ritual build as a going 2nd to resolve my Dogmatikamatrix better besides the 6 cards in hand. Definitely wayy better than my previous handtrap build. Also, Pankratops brings so much value in one card as a summon that doesn't start a chain, has good stats, and a dodging effect into a pop so I would indeed recommend it too
Dogmatika is such a fun build. Matrix is a really custom card when it resolves lol.
- Handtraps can be used going first or second. Board breakers can't (except Super Poly). So it can't back up your own board.
- One board breaker often isn't enough to entirely break a board,. We even saw this in your example duel.
- Board breakers are dead if you get Secret Village, Puppet or Scythe locked etc... where a handtrap may have prevented that. Your own example duel proved this.
- If you let one card resolve in Yugioh it can accrue a massive amount of advantage. This is not worth the trade of for using board breakers instead because they will have infinite follow up.
- There's no game plan with a blind second deck for when forced to go first. This is less of a factor in Master Duel because it is not real Yugioh.
- Your example duel is not representative and in fact proves that board breakers should not be used in place of hand traps. Dogmatika is already one of the better blind second decks but ironically, it would have lost to a single handtrap. An Imperm or Alba Zoa making your Dogmatikas affected, an Ash on Matrix etc... You got incredibly lucky, the board breakers didn't help you win that one, it was the fact your opponent WASN'T playing hand traps that allowed you to win, combined with the fact that Dogmatika has lots of removal and doesn't need the Extra Deck. If you were playing any other deck, you had already lost because of the Scythe lock you couldn't prevent due to playing board breakers instead of hand traps.
Very accurate
He (edit: refering to the video, i agree on most of the OP) had a good reasoning but didnt explained the actual pro/cons of ht Vs board breakers. The thing is ht are way easy to play and to deckbuild with, while board breakers are probably way better fixed a certain match but they are usually not versatile enough, imo the only exception is droplet and enemy controller as you can set them and they work fine if you go first. The lack of understanding of this is obv by the deck presented as its a dogmatica pile that have like half of ed as targets for super poly and ultimate slayer. The problem is there are no good decks that have that extra deck space outside of few exception that are usually tier2 at best. Also i wanna mention super poly as an example: super poly sucks right now but its really good in yubel. Drnm is a -1 against the arguably tier0 deck atm and also you cant play it in tenpai for example. They are all format dependant but also deck dependant, you cant afford like half of them depending on what you play unless its stun pile. Another big problem is: ftks. If the superheavy in the video was playing the ftk instead of scyte (wich is an ftk against 90% of decks) you would not get to play. Branded have puppet lock, there is calamity, hell even SE ash is a 1 card ftk if they commit 2 extra deck slots for it and if the format will develop into going second no ht somehow, i bet someone will get a ycs top with that shit.
Ps:
1 of my few decks i have irl is runick live twin spright and i have 6 non engine slots where i have 3 droplet and 3 evenly. Im not an ht fun and do believe that board breakers can work but you need to understand the format, your deck and what make sense. And i'm not going blind second with a runick deck xd if i can i just set droplet or discard evenly for hugin
Thank you.
...
Masterduel is YuGiOh.
It's just a slightly different banlist from the OCG. everything else is the ecact same.
@@NotControlledByMillipedes ocg is not real, also its bo1 Vs bo3 and at least ocg has that or it would be a terribile format (like master duel)
Very interesting topic (at least the strict math portion), appreciate u sharing it.
Of course the are some nits that can be picked, since some things do seem a tad oversimplified, but overall i still think we can learn some things from this.
Also Jesse, u can consider adding timestamps for future vids, so its easier when someone wants to go back to a specific part like the "handtraps paradox" part, etc.
Great feedback! Noted! I will learn the timestamps process and have that for future videos. Thank you for this suggestion to make the channel/content better.
Glad you liked the topic! Thanks for watching
Really interesting topic. I’ve noticed that hand traps have been feeling weaker as of late. Glad to see I’m not crazy lmao.
I'm hoping with the way Konami is going, decks will be built and evolve to constantly play around 2 handtraps and theorycrafters/deckbuilders/innovaters will be 1 step ahead of the netdeckers :)
Well done man. This video is gold. This is what I try to explain to my viewers, you do the same but with stats. I love it
oh awesome! Im going to check out your channel now! maybe there are some things that you do that i can improve upon. sometimes i feel i miss out on so much things that i want to say.
For example after this was made I saw so much I left out like TY-PHOON, change of heart and maybe alot of the other various 180 cards that say "if your opponent controls a card" that I could have highlighted more.
I think the main takeaway is that if you already have a lot of hand traps in the main you can easily max out on board breakers going second since you will pretty much always go second at least once a match. Feel like just about every side deck card is specifically for going second anyways besides your judgements and strikes or floodgates (rip summon limit lmao). Sometimes it’s best to stop the board than break it but both are valid options Id say
Cool video. Imo it misrepresents the situation a bit. If going second is so great why isnt everyone doing that? Well there are many reasons.
One thing that I noticed is that you equated the effect of 2 handraps to a single board breaker. This might be true against some decks,but in the current tcg format that is not the case. The current best deck in the tcg, snake eyes fire king, does not lose to a single boardbreaker. Why is that the case, because the interruptions are varied and spread out across different parts of the game(the field,the grave,the backrow,the hand). 2 h.t.'s can stop them from getting to that position in the 1st place.
You were also , intentionally or not, misleading with the example you showed in ss samurai. The endboard absolutely folded to a single board breaker that you conveniently drew. Theres also the question of followup,yeah you might break their board,but they still have their resources loop set-up,can you compete with that as well? If youre not playing the best deck or are not otk-ing them that turn, probably not.
I legit think that "no one is doing it" because people are so hard stuck to "meta" things. If theres at least a slight meta in any game, people will stick to it no matter what. No matter if they think it's actually good, actually fun, etc. Theres just a very small amount of people who do not refuse to play anything but meta things. People get told Going-First is better? They will stick to it, even if it brings them nothing but loses. It's been always like this in games. Videogames, cardgames, etc.
@@Luna-Starfrost unchained. No one thought that deck was good until Pak (or who was it) to it and wooped ass with it. Many competitive players are looking for new stuff that could defeat the current meta.
@@Luna-Starfrostthat is sometimes the case, no format is ever fully solved, but it's not true here
Snake eye decks for example don't lose to a single board breaker for the reasons the op stated, no board breaker can hit the monster zones, backrow, gy and hand at the same time
Also floodgate/turnskip decks don't lose to board breakers and there have been plenty of those in the past few years
Rn the most prominent one is branded with droplet being the only board breaker that can stop the puppet lock, and also the only one that can stop centurion and calamity
Another good example is mikanko, originally a blind 2nd deck themselves, but they only won a ycs after ken and gen gave them the ability to go 1st and floodgate the opponent out of the game with acid golem, what are board breakers gonna do here?
"The endboard absolutely folded to a single board breaker that you conveniently drew." the example cut the merit of having that card in the deck? i mean, if the second turn player was a snake eyes that drew the same card, are we just when saying that deck had unfair gameplay? Even it is a rogue deck doing headaches against meta, they choose the cards to make it. There are people with 6 hand traps, other people with 16 hand traps, and they can change the tide of second turn, but still have GY and backrow to suppont the monsters.
Called by the grave and ghost belle werent mentioned, but works well against snake eyes/fire king mechanics, but people seems to either have lack of resources to put cards in deck or even understmate their efficacy. 1 Maxx, 1 ash, 1 crossing out, 1 infinite impermanece and 2 called by grave are the minimum handtraps needed for first turn, but leaves you a space to play second at MD. Ghost belle enters here at second turn for example. one or 2 is fine, as she doesnt do a thing at first turn, unless you face bystials.
Also, in the new pack, maybe this later year, we will have MD with new had traps with less conditions and more efficacy, that one which you will be restricted to only summon DARK, FIRE and WATER. If that enters in MD, less fear against SS from GY, which boardbreakers cannot access. The "new maxx C too"... who knows?
So... there's a type of fallacious logic (meaning an argument whose logic does not actually support the conclusion it claims to reach) called an appeal to popularity. The basic logic of this fallacy takes the form of either "it is popularly believed, therefore it is true" or "it is not popularly believed, therefore it is false". The reason this logic is fallacious is because a person believing something does not make this true, which logically means the number of people who believe something cannot affect whether it is true either.
Honestly this is one of the best yugioh vids I've seen in a while. This is speaking my language
And thank you for watching im happy you like these videos 😀
13:21 You know what, this was a realization for me. I play a lot of master duel but I also watch a lot of Jaiden BR, he's a HERO main who, *every season* , climbs to Master 1, with Heroes. Now he does play Ash Maxx C and Called By like everyone else in master duel, but he also plays Super-Poly, Forbidden Droplet, and recently, Destiny Hero Plasma. Heroes are also inherently good into a boardbreaking strategy because you inherently have room for cards like super-poly. But *Watching* his videos there was always that moment where he'd be down, and he'd need some big play to out his opponent's board, and, heart of the cards, its droplet.
That's just math. The power of defensively oriented strategy is that the more attempts you get, the more likely the "lucky" outcome occurs. HERO can be annoyingly resilient, and is pretty good at slowly and methodically picking apart boards thanks to DPE.
I'm not really agree here, the math is ok but unless you play a specific deck for going second, there are a lots more things to concern.
Going second card is really tricky. Not every decks will just die by you dropping 1 going second card, or will just leave you to combo-off like nothing. some decks even need specific answer to shut down it. HT, Gy, eff, follow up can be a thing to distrupt your play. Especially lingering eff like dweller, spell/trap to distrupt for example.
Your deck also has to be very suitable with it, something like ninja, salamangreat are not as good to out opp board. Many of their decks combo can be distrupted and that can shutdown your game too, you have to both fufil the condition of clearing opp board and gaining enough advantage to make sure opp can’t come back by. These 2nd can be a big opportunity for 1 turn while can be a big downside if you can't use it's short advantage to switch the game.
Most people prefer ht because of it's versatiles can be use in almost any decks, while going second cards depend on situation. Ht can be use both to distrupt minor opp plays or right now in the meta, it can be a bonus distrupt for opp plays. Many good decks play around ht, they lowered the opp final board so their deck can play out it.
It's not just about people dropping full going second cards because in this meta when many ht, other kinds of distrupt like spell/trap, lingerring eff and recovery, sometimes you don't have an ability to end opp board (Something like boss monster) and have to invest more about out opp resources. That is where 2nd cards is weaker in this aspect, because who knows opp will prepare any things for 2nd turns? You sure you could both out the board and set enough distrupt to stop opp?
And Side deck problems, you can make sure you win when opp went first, but in 2nd, 3rd game you still have to side deck to change playstyle, because with opp side deck like summon-limit(ban), floodgates, anti ht like triple, control cards like kash,... Your normal board needs to have more supports and the case of you going 2nd and out opp board will be less likely by their specific counter cards. Also, you need to check if your deck has answer 2nd cards for spell/trap decks, midrange or combo decks.
Overall I appriciate your math, but when come into a real game state, players will prefer for more control thing like going 1st, set up your board rather than hope for only going second cards.
You're logic is great, it's just funny (not wrong I'm just weird) you used salad as the bad going second example cause I've been playing going second salad. Its not quite good, but I have a fantastic (70-90%) win rate rn because I play the deck way too much and am good with it
@@whiteshadow2535 let me take back about it a bit. I agree salad has some plan for going second, even good with xyz, code talker combo,... But even before or right now sticking into control/board with is better in general. Let's opp combo is really risky when you can't control your board.
Sure winning with 2nd deck otk is very satisfying, but in game 2, 3 when opp fliped sth like anti-spell, skilldrain, stun deck, lingering eff, rip-off hand,... ,or just siding ht. It's struggle alot, and let's not talking about if you lose game 1, opp knows your deck playstyle and now they let you go first:(
The only types of decks that actively want to go first are control and stun. Aggro wants the battle phase as early as possible and midrange wants the extra card. Those are the fundamentals of each archetypal strategy. And even control decks can recover quickly going second anyway. Stun decks rely heavily on silver bullet floodgates in the first place, so their effectiveness isn't really changed much between first and second, even though setting up earlier makes it easier to pick apart the board later.
All of the specific math goes AFTER figuring out the general preferences of the strategy. And those general preferences already lean toward going second.
@@dontmisunderstand6041 I don’t think yubel will choose to go second when I can literally use that deck to ftk opp with full distruption and follow up:)
I like your style. Going from theory to examples to a replay does a good job.
Loved the video. Will definitely try this out. Good stuff man. Would love to see more videos playing this style 👍🏻
yeah there is so much unexplored area here. Over 180 cards that say "if your opponent controls a monster" that dogmatika matrix card was better than pot of greed! it got me 2 dogmatik cards and then let me send a card from ED as well. Crazy!
But yeah cards like change of heart, typhoon, book of moon so many going 2nd cards that can be explored more but really don't get their chance to shine.
who are you exposing my secrets ?
I think this is a nice argument for going second. There is a lot of merit to what you said and it's going to be even better going second now with less generic negation and some more and more good going second cards being released. That being said, there are two things that make going second a difficult strategy to bet on: 1. lingering floodgates. 2. Towers monsters (if you haven't drawn exactly the out). If the meta didn't have either of these things, I think, yes, going second would be viable.
What floods? The 1 Anti Spell Frag? lol
@@rCrypto_Frog4148 It's a general statement. It can be anything necrovalley, secret village of the spellcasters, colossus, Iblee, protos, etc.
@@rCrypto_Frog4148 ice barrier have all the floodgates, Raiho is the obligatory one (pays one card for any monster effect, until you have full negation on monsters), the others works like anti spell frag, but they arent necessary. If you draw no negation hand trap in your hand it will be a headache. The boss Lancea likes superpoly/kaiju/banishment because of float effect, but if you dont have called by the grave in this very circunstational ocasion, you lose one grave, one field and one hand because of trishula. Theorically -4 in your the second turn.
Trying this approach at the moment in TCG with my DLink. I don't know exactly why, but I find myself more comfortable with the deck since I made the change.
Previously tough matchups suddenly turn free wins (like Labrinth for example). Plus I love the surprise factor, on game one nobody expects the board breakers; on game 2 I can even switch to play the handtraps on my side deck. Its so versatile, and I love it.
This approach has been an incredible discovery for me and I think it suits perfectly my game style. Thank you!
I love how you mime drawing a card at around 13:00. Duel disk is iconic
glad you liked that! i get really into the videos sometimes :)
Dude you blow me away with each video you drop. So thorough
Thank you, I appreciate that! Glad you like the videos.
In Master Duel in particular, if you want to play a 'going second' deck, finding a way to take advantage of the going 2nd cards when you go first is important.
Horus, for example, can discard the going 2nd cards you drew when you went first for additional value.
Reminds me of the Jesse made in the deck building video, where generally discarding for value is an extremely powerful effect due to how it safeguards you from bad mulligans.
I would like to see videos about the following:
1) Mathematically optimal deck building rules in Master Duel. Is it necessary to account for going second and is it okay to run a certain amount of going second only cards?
2) An explanation of the significance of 85%, in general statistics and how it applies to YGO deck building.
3) Building decks for specific archetypes using statistics.
Thank you for the suggestions! I am currently in the process of making a video similar to your #3 suggestion!
and then the number 2 suggestion i have in the works a couple of videos later!
Thank you for watching and great comment! I love when people post suggestions many of my videos have come from these suggestions please always post them if they are content you want to see or things that you want to get better.
Ive been playing a going 2nd striker eldlich (currently at 60 cards) board breaker deck since the launch of master duel with my longest win streak being 37. I love going 2nd
Amazing video bro! Keep it up. Love the energy and the teachings
appreciate it! i try to make numbers fun and really enjoy the math aspect of these kind of things. Glad i found so many people that share that same passion. Thanks for watching!
Great video, Tenpai just release in Master Duel so I'm gonna use this theory
Happy about this video as i decided about two years ago to stop playing handtrap and going full going second with board breakers. I am not sure it is the way to go for every deck but it was the case for my pure Shaddoll build. Another virtue of board breakers is that they are less prone to misplay than handtraps. Therefore it was easier for me who was pretty new to the game.
Nice video !
At the end of the day it comes down to luck and preference. There was a regional where I drew Droll going 2nd as my 6th card vs Mannadium. I think most players prefer hand traps atm cuz going 2nd, it is one of the 5 starting cards to prevent your opp from getting too much advantage and if you go first, you can layer hand traps with your usual board to surprise your opponent. Duster and evenly are only ok cuz they can get rid of boards but not hand traps. Good insight regardless and I think it will ultimately depend on the user and their playstyle. Some decks like Kash inherently have Fenrir as a boardbreaker in tcg so might not need as many non engine ones.
Your comment is right on the mark! At the end of the day it is preference. My goal was to just let people know hey there is a completely other "chess opening" here that is relatively unexplored especially for many people who get dissatisfied with tier 0 metas.
Alot of people are comfortable with handtraps because its also all they know and spent so much time learning where to ash vs what decks etc. Now they have to learn when to superpoly or what ED to use for ultimate slayer and that could overwhelm some people who are slow learners.
A solid perspective of the current format as evidenced by your video
glad you liked it! Thanks for watching!
I personally think evenly matched is one of the best boardbreakers, provided it actually goes through
i agree. really good in this format too. and with the recent hits to the omni-negates, this card will even get to see heavier play
Decks that play around Evenly are rare, but boards that do that just make it easier for you to not need Evenly. And from there, you just keep it in your hand as an emergency board breaker to even the odds later.
Reject hand traps embrace board breakers 🗿
Why not both? 🤷♀️
I've ALWAYS loved running Raigeki and Harpie's Feather Duster in my main deck, plus they were my favorite childhood spell cards. It'd be amazing if they came up with cards that function like Raigeki, Harpie's Feather Duster, and Mirror Force but banish instead of destroying. I'm running 2 Kurikara, 2 Raigeki, 2 Super Polymerization and 2 Dark Ruler No More in my side deck. The Dark Ruler No More + Raigeki combo is nice. If I played Master Duel, then I'd probably have to main deck Dark Ruler No More.
Raigeki and Duster aren't ideal, but they're still powerhouses when drawn at the right time. Generally I don't want to see a Raigeki or Duster in my opening hand, but I'm almost always happy to see them on turn 7.
You are quickly becoming my favorite Yugituber. Awesome work as always
Wow! That is a very strong compliment. Thank you so much for the kind words! Very appreciative.
Same. I'm fascinated by this side of YuGiOh.
Thanks Jesse! Really helpful information. Look forward to seeing more and more of your content.
I'm going to write this comment while watching so i don't forget stuff
0. Are we talking Master duel or actual TCG?
1. 2 HTs is not necessarely the optimal number,it depends on your deck and the format itself
2. Destroying cards IS NOT BAD,triggering floating effects/baiting negates at your whim and not when your opponents wants to is a big factor in breaking a board
3. Calling Gameciel better than NIb,Evenly or imperm is straight up ignoring the huge utilty that those cards offer in a wide format,also the impact they can have going first
4. ironic that we call Lighting storm bad cause it destroys and then sing the prays of Ultimate Slayer send Ntss
5. while Spoly is strong,not a 2for1 but a 2+forX(where 2+ is the number of cards you spend,and X is the number of cards you manage to spoly away,which can vary a lot)
6. Ever noticed that archetypes better are going second are usually bad? like the ninjas you showed?
7. We're not even considering the existance of Turn Ending Handtraps in this discussion
So,while the math is good,the video is deeply flawed in its logic
Hope to see better from you in the future
Thanks for taking the time to comment I will try to address the points made:
I address both master duel and TCG for various points in the video and address both formats sorry if I was unclear at certain points I will work on that.
2 HTs are the optimal number because your other 3 cards need to be starter/extender/utility card because you will likely be handtraped and interrupted in some way.
Evenly, Nib and Imperm is great! They are just better regulated for side deck not main deck unless you want to gamble vs your opponent.
The unrespondable Ultimate slayer Spins and won't neccessarily destroy unless you send n'tss and you can choose to send n'tss who destroys or draw 1 with garura. The utility is much stronger then the mandatory destruction of raigeki which can be negated/blocked/dodged etc.
Remember super poly also makes a body. Mudragon gives you protection, garura gives you a draw, Venom Dragon gives you OTK potential ect. Its more than a 2 for 2.
Ninjas are amazing. However, Its one of the hardest decks to use. I have seen top players misplay with ninjas its one of the most underrated decks imo. Not beginner friendly at all. I can send you replays of just pure domination. In some formats I had over 80% win ratio with ninjas (Kash format the perma setting facedown with jioh was basically instawin)
I address turn ending handtraps like Maxx C which I consider in the video is so powerful you still have to play. It baits the ash etc. The other turn ending handtraps could be droll which in the replay i was playing at 1 copy for crossout and talk about etc. So I do talk about if your deck is struggling vs turn ending handtraps what you can do to play around them. EX add more called bys or other cards to counter.
All in all the video is supposed to challenge the viewer to make their deck better and reconsider this 20+ handtrap meta and I just provide the math. I would need to look at every deck in an individual basis to truely get down to look at nitty gritty.
However, I really appreciate the time you took to comment. And i am happy you watched the video. I will also on my end try to improve my content to make things more understandable because I can see my points were missed and that is something I can improve upon.
Thank you so much for watching I am very appreciative.
I have no idea on how MD Is being played RN but i do agree that 20hts are too much,but you see,for last tcg format (prebanlist) 3hts was arguably better than 2,slayer being unrespondable is very relative,a lot of meta decks can use a spell or trap to respond to it and than chain a must resolve monster,also for example,take Branded in TCG,there is not boardbreaker that can respond or prevent the puppet lock if Branded Lost is on the field,while Handtraps can,that alone would make you run Handtraps in main or you risk losing game 1 by default in that matchup (and it 's not the only one)
Also yeah,Ninjas were good against Kash,but what do they do against a deck that doesn't care about the setting?
@@giuseppepepe4404I feel like my response to this would be that there is a reason we have a side deck. I'm not gonna prepare my main deck for an ftk if only a few people play it but better believe that my side deck will try to address it
@@BirdMan808 so you'd lose game 1 nearly every time you go second against branded and hope the side deck Is enough to carry you the other two games?
Another great video. Can't wait for the next one!
Thanks for watching! Really appreciative of the hype!
Great video but i want to point out that Ultimate Slayer sends for cost and cards like Kitkallos needs to be send by a card effect to mill 5 .
Yes! You are absolutely correct! Very important comment, It's nadir servant that can active Kitkallos. Thank you for the correction!
I watch 25 min of an extreme helpful video to get the information that drytron isn't a good going second in the last seconds. I wanna still try
When i said Dryton, in my head i was thinking the "herald of ultimate" variant. But actually Pure drytron especially with the new cards looks to be very powerful and has plays for going 1st and 2nd!
Sorry for the confusion!
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming hey Jesse, good to know and thank you! I'm using drytron for my BLS support and with your deck building tips its seems veeery nice. Works perfect for me. btw, u have very strong speaker skills! Keep it up. Love ur video style!
What about handtrap from the opponent? Have you take that into account, like ash your starter after drnm.
Yes, I mention if you can't play through 1 hand trap then using talent, putting called by, gamma or crossout packages is fine to increase playthrough rate. In the game showcased I had a small crossout package. (i took it out because after more games i realized i did'nt need it and dind't come up)
It really is game to game and the correct ratios/decks if you can play through a trap or 2. Much gameplay knowledge is needed for the deckbuilding process and there is no real netdeck for these.
@JessePerezStrategyGaming Imagine actually building a mathematically-correct optimal non-engine net deck package and teaching it in Dueling class, only for it to get downvoted into oblivion if it doesn't main 3 Ashes. 😂
Ultimate slayer in a ritual dogmatika deck has been my go to for a while its so hard to counter play
Bruv stumbled upon your videos since my recommended videos are mainly yu gi oh shizzle but your channel is really sublimely good to get me to understand the statistics behind deckbuilding and such and such!! Really nice, keep it up boiiii
Thank you so much this is really the biggest compliment you can give a youtuber. So happy to help ☺️ thank you for watching!
This was a fun video! Please make more.
Glad you enjoyed! I did have fun making it too! Thanks for watching!
Impressive showmanship keep the content coming 👏
I gave up building turn one boards a while ago. Now I just tune out once I'm out of interruptions and just ask what I'm playing through. Invoked with purg is a nasty board breaker. I also was playing skull servant until they took linkuriboh
I found the exact video i was searching for, thank you alot at solving format!
I do similar to this in my going 2nd Tear deck. Super poly, kaiju, we’re in there, now ultimate slayer can be a big help.
Hey man you are making a crucial mistake here. You are completely ignoring LINGERING effects and overall floodgates AND Ftk decks that either make you unable to play with a lingering effect on your turn (which only QUICK PLAY board breakers can deal with) one example for this in master duel is the super heavy samurai level 12 engine and another is the bombardment bird ftk that snake-eye decks can splash in without much difficulty.
The logic behind hand traps vs board breakers is that combo decks are not as linear as most Yugioh players think.
There are predominantly 4 types of going-first decks and some decks mix and mash these to get a mixed result;
1) Negate board. These decks aim to trade 1 for 1 with your starters and board breakers to make you unable to kill them and then they have their recursion to kill you.
2) Floodgates. These decks aim to shut down a very core mechanic almost every deck needs to otk and shut that shit down. These can be legless and hard drawn as well and can even play around hand traps if you are playing hard draw reliant versions which are generally called "stun".
3) Going first decks that imitate going second decks. These are usually the most oppressive decks in the game whenever they come around luckily they are not common in the last decade. These decks search going second cards and add them to their hand while creating a minimally resistant board. An old example of this would be tour guide to summon sangan then use both as xyz mat to summon zenmaines or any xyz 3 you could detach easily from to search either effect veiler or maxx c.
4) Last one is the rarest among them. Hand loop decks. These can be characterized as "ftk" decks but the core difference is that with the graveyard effects powerscaling AND 1 card combos these decks are usually no longer easy ftk decks because you can still from grave and draw a starter. These decks typically can't either full hand loop you or can't produce a "no you don't effect" alongside the loop.
Board breakers are good against negate boards and usually fold to the other 3. I also made a new deck and @ you in your discord which basically is a 3rd type of deck.
The reason board breakers were bad in the previous tcg meta was because going first player had 18 hand traps did full combo thinning deck then drew 3 cards and then stopped you with hand traps which you can't interact with as a going second player effectively. The heatsoul and spoils drew in total 3 cards which was the enabler.
I just tried out sky strikers with the advice...omg i had like droplet, super poly, ultimate slayer and so many other power spells vs a snake eyes board
I'm actually thinking of replacing all my non engine cards in MD with board breakers (except for imperm and maxx c, I guess?). I almost never win the coin toss anyway, lol.
Cool! I asked about going second on an earlier vid - this is everything I wanted!
Awesome! Glad this you liked the video!
Genuinely a very interesting and lovely math video! Because of how I have relied on Ash, Imperm, that I didn't think about forbidden droplet and the kaijus. Thank you! Time to run it back
Valeu!
Thank you so much! :D
This makes sense only if you are planning to go second and if your opponent knows you wanna go second would they let you go second?
Depends on how heavily their strategy relies on going first. Negate spam is going to struggle more going second than the going second deck will struggle to play through fewer points of disruption than normal.
I am playing go 2nd dogmatikas every month to M1 and can approve of this. great video
Before watching the video, i started going second because Josh Schmidt was talking about enjoying the game figuring out how to break boards with his sky striker deck at a tourney. I enjoy it to be honest. I let you do you just so i can rip that shit to shreds. And laugh at you when I OTK you that turn without a chance to respond. Its fun. Glad I made the switch
Thoughts on Metaltronios? If they nib you can Go into Galaxy eyes Cipher> Galaxy Eye Armor, pop>exchange into Galaxy Eye Cipher Blade and pop a 2nd card and push. Also quickplay so it's defensive as well. Malicious is to S:P (dark warrior) and I:P (Dark 100atk). Coiuld be like an Etele for Malicious lol
That is very interesting! I honestly do not know that particular line so i have to look that up! But that sounds like your cooking up something!
I tried to build a similar deck but I seem to be missing sth. Is there a decklist out there?
We need more videos like this showing us good board breakers bc im struggling with it rn. I need find some generic board breakers.
Some other ones that I didn't highlight also that are very good/ versitile depending on the meta are Typhoon, enemy controller, kurikara, book of moon, and change of heart.
@JessePerezStrategyGaming ok thank you! I will look into those!!
Great video. Love the data-driven perspective you offer. I want to add some criticism to help make your arguments stronger.
One thing you want to mention in your statistics: you want to pull two handtraps/going second cards *with different names*. Going second and drawing two DRNM or super poly is a dead card. Gamaciel is an exception because you can use the second as either another removal spell after getting rid of the first, as an extra body.
So I’d like to see the calcs of running multiple two-of going second cards versus three-of of fewer cards.
Now, why did it take until 15:29 to mention Thrust and Talents? First, Talents the most versatile, powerful, with less commitment than any other card you mentioned. A card your audience already knows is good. Second, Thrust’s ability to act as a wild card vastly increases the consistency of drawing these outs. Except better because you can grab the one that’s best in this situation.
Mentioning Thrust earlier would allow you to add its wildcard status to your statistics, making your argument much stronger. Plus, thrust can let you run situational one-of cards you can search with it. For example, evenly into rescue ace or non-synchro snake eye fields.
Finally, get that anecdotal evidence crap out here (joking). You’re the statistics man. Show me statistics. There are add-ons to help you track win rates. These add-ons can give you great data like the win rate of the cards you suggest.
Now, doing that by yourself, I’d expect a sample size of about 10 non-outlier duels. Even better would be if you could your community, or ask someone else’s community, to get you more data.
That last bit will be harder to do until your channel gets bigger. So I’d check if you can filter these tools, like Untapped, for the kinds of duels you’re looking for. If the tool doesn’t let you directly, chances are you can ask them for the data you’re looking for.
Edit: you could also grab your data from tournament runners.
From the main going second cards he suggested, only DRNM is bad in multiple copies. All the others dont have a once per turn clause or discard, so u can discard the duplicate for eg if your draw 2 droplets.
yeah it took me a long time to mention thrust lol and there was so many cards i didn't even mention! TY-PHOON, change of heart, book of moon, enemy controller all have their places in various formats or side deck.
In any event great comment! Great suggestions always looking to improve thank you so much for the help.
I like the fact that you ignored the other line of having at least 2 hand traps; if you play 16 handtraps, the probability of you having more than 2 is like another 30 percent. Having only 2 card to combo is quite rough
Great video. Will use this knowledge
Great video! I think a learned a lot.
currently i paused the video , you got me with the math part you got a point, now i'll watch the rest, see you guys in 25mins
This video is exactly what the Yugioh community needs. I have believed this for so long, but i know its not a popular theory because theres not as much evidence to prove its viable. But this video ceetainly helps. And going into the current TCG format, its going to be impossible to shut down players even with two hand traps. Thank you for making this video. I loved the replay too, you absolutely destroyed that Super heavy player. I would love for you to take some of the things people have said here in the commenrs and make a follow up video with your thoughts! Dont let the close-minded critics get to you! Keep being amazing! ❤
Thanks for the comment! glad you liked the video! Yea you would think I am holding their loved ones hostage with some of the comments :D
As a Gem-Knight player I thank you for your contribution
i also find if im planning to go 2nd i dont focus as much on my opponent "lines" and where to interrupt them leaving me more brain power to figure out what im going to do.
You lost me until around the 10 minutes, then, you completely caught my attention 😮. Great video and even better breakdown.
Great job brother
ive always believed that going second was the better option in yugioh but could never seem to make it work... (reason being I was to focused on using board breakers) now that you have broken it down especially with the math and statistics as well with the correct cards to use going second im very happy i came across the video. I will definitely be giving it another shot and excited to see the results... now i just need to get my hands on a play set of ultimate slayer and droplet.
I never saw the utility in ultimate slayer until now.. mark my words going second will be much more dominate over the next year or two in yugioh. I guess were just ahead of the curve now.
Many thanks!
Awesome content!
Thanks! glad you liked it!
I currently am tinkering with my marincess deck and I like to play 2 triple talents and 2 forbidden droplet for game 1 as I don’t know if I will win the coin flip and I feel like those cards do well in simplified game states. However I don’t have 3 of each because I want to minimize the chance of drawing multiple copies. I still run a lot of hand traps. But infinite impermanence (which I believe is a must include) also can act as a pseudo board breaker in it of itself part of why it is such a great handtrap. Especially because marincess already cycles an archetypal negate that you want to save for your opponent’s turn in wave. So you can have the freedom to hold imperm in hand.
That is a great strat. Dropplet, tactics, and Impermanence all can work BOTH going 1st and 2nd so there is benefits to how your playing your deck.
At the same time your not running too many of them either so you substantially lower the chances of drawing more than 2 copies in your hand.
I like it! 👍
what is your dogmatika ritual deck list ?
i have it in my discord! discord.gg/k4XyfvBnhS
the list is posted as well as some members posted their going 2nd decks that have found success for them. come check it out!
In any event, thanks for watching!
You can use Forbidden droplet to stop the puppet lock. You can use evenly matched to stop the secret village lock. I might just have to switch
interesting card that i didn't mention that is a decent/good go 2nd card is change of heart. you can take their spellcaster and be free from the village lock. if your playing alot of secret village in locals or what not that could be a good side/or even main option depending on the quantity/representation of players using it.
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming except that change of heart is a spell card, so you wouldn't be able to activate it under secret village.
@@vasilboev1383 ack true!
cant stop puppet lock as soon as it hits the field its effect apply and linger, not activating too.
@@YohananYGO bro you chain forbidden to the dragon lol
Ultimate slayer is a great card but requires to many extra deck cards to make it good. I agree with everything else.
1:48 where are you getting these figures from?
It’s the probability of drawing a hand trap (the y-axis) based on the number of hand traps you’re playing (the x-axis)
Jesse you’re goated for going against the grain and being creative and trying to experiment with new things, regardless of whether you are right or not, you should keep up the great work. One day you’ll change the game
Thanks! lol Yeah some of the replys/comments in here are you would think I'm holding their loved ones hostage. :D Glad you liked the video!
Another banger vid
Thanks! Glad you liked it! Thanks for watching and you won 1st comment :)
Can we get a deck list of what your playing in the vid.
In the current format I feel the issue with handtraps is that when you give up going first these decks accrue massive advantage, you need to spend cards to get onto the board and then you often get hit by the same handtraps anyway.
That said I've been a blind second enjoyer who plays a lot of Mekk so I'm down to try. Especially with Ninja since it usually goes first but that turns off their strongest card.
I love ninjas! Very underated deck because of its difficulty to pilot. A well piloted ninja deck is extremely strong.
is there any good deck suggestion going second?
Dogmatka, Tenpai, Ancient Warriors, War Rock, 8 AXIS, Mikanko, Cyber Dragon, True Draco. You can even talor some decks to go second like Scareclaw and OTK with the multiple attacks etc.
There is alot of playing around with but if a deck can power up strong otk potential, or break boards and create a strong control then usually they make great going 2nd decks.
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming i see thanks i joined ur discord as well found a guy u helped me as well
Bro uses Master duel as an example while using Maxx C. Of course your board breakers are gonna do more cause your drawing more of them. Plus you have a towers that's unaffected by ED monsters its pretty hard to out. Certain board breakers are better then others doesn't mean you should play them over other ones. Hand traps are best when a deck is to strong to break alone.
This is where formats develop people will figure out if a format is a board breaker one or a handtrap one and go from there. Also I could just not draw any board breakers or draw all of them vise versa with handtraps nothing is guaranteed in this game it all depends on what you draw what your opp draws and how skilled each other are to play this 2 player game.
I got Maxx C'ed and played through it my first turn. It was the large card advantage my deck generated that allowed me to draw find one in the later turns. At that point though I already won. If anything it showcased how your deck can play through their maxx c and has a strong survival when you cant finish.
@@JessePerezStrategyGaming Or they just don't have a card that can out a 4k unaffected beater plus you dont need to summon from the ED since your deck locks you out of it. Any deck can play board breaks or handtraps it just tailors how you many you play and whether you go first or second. I play Kashtira at my locals my old side deck was tailored to try and kill I playedstuff like lava golem and lightning storms but that was 2 3 formats ago now im just purely handtraps in main with 1 set of board breakers in my side since id rather handtraps this format most of the time.
Also handtraps are just better in general then a board breaker if your opponent makes you go first with a bunch of breakers your not gonna do much. and decks in general have many choke points so its better to exploit them then letting them pop off
I've been playing full spells sky striker blind 2nd with 3 snatch steal, 2 CoH, 3 mind control, 3 ls, 1 raigeki, 1 heavy storm, 3 cosmic and it works great against this yubel meta. My hardest matchup so far is centurion
I always enjoy going blind second, feels more fun for me. I'd say board breakers are great for slower decks since usually a player would just vomit out most of their Extra Deck turn 1, and breaking their board means their ceiling will reduce as well (i.e. snake-eye can recover a lot of their cards, but Aposula ain't one of them), so their turn 3 board will be much easier to break. Plus, with the new banlist getting rid of 2 of the most prominent omni-negators that most decks can use, it means that your board breakers are more likely to go off.
Little PSA a good option to deal with the strategy he's covering in the video is siding 3 judgement and 3 floodgates
Actually I love going second because I feel more rewarded when I brake my opp board than just doing the same 10 min combo to set 7 negates. I play Mikanko btw
agree
What would you recommend for pot cards in this case and how many?
Board breakers is a much more enjoyable playstyle.
One of the problems with board breakers is finding the right engines to pair them with:
can play through an interruption
doesn't need its normal summon, doesn't need too much extra deck space
Interesting theory. Can do some sample decks?
our discord has alot of people theroycrafting and using these decks in TCG and master duel. We would love for you to come on and have a look! discord.gg/f3kfYNtnzr
when drawing super poly as the sixth feels euphoric, it also means it will feel insufficient resolving it 😅
Ok what if you get Max-c on your turn and you can stop it🤔
Man this is confirmation for me!!! I came to this realization that I would build a blind 2nd deck with Heroes then side deck out for games 2 & 3 to go first (depending on match up if I need to set up Dark Law/ Dark Angel).
Something like Snake Eyes plays thru handtraps far too easily. Most decks can't play 16+ handtraps AND consistently combo. So I'm enjoying the going 2nd style so far cuz it's alot better to just break their board (hopefully enough gas to OTK) and set up so they can't come back!