GUILLIMAN'S DAUNTLESS FEW! WHY DID HE CHOOSE THOSE BROTHERS?
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- Опубліковано 28 кві 2022
- Hi all Rho here! Today we discuss Roboute Guilliman's infamous "Dauntless Few"! The four brothers he trusted the most to win any battle... Why did he choose them instead of the others?
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Pertarobo decimated his legion when he took command. Guilleman saw it as an atrocity and a huge waste. How can you trust someone who killed off 10% of his own sons? I thought it was obvious.
Exactly!
I know Angron timed his troops but Didnt pervyrobo was mad at his sons for not being the best over relatively minor things.
Also Perty is uncaring and ruthless in his method of war. When the iron warriors have won there is nothing but ruins and most often higher casualties then needed by the end.
That and his open hate for Dorn and the Fists. Corax on the other hand, should definitely be part of the dauntless, he was made to conduct stealth operations, and that’s what he does… predictable, I think when the author made “dauntless few” he didn’t think it through and rho here is over analyzing it
@@premieroptimist1277 Corax is the master at what he does but he is inflexible. In the book (Corax) it is said the he beat Gulliman three times in simulations but never after that because then Guilliman had his measure of Corax’s methods. Also the events of Gate 64 show that if Corax deviates from his tactics of precision and stealth strikes it will be disastrous for his legion.
I think during the Great Crusade Guilliman didn’t really appreciate his brothers, but now in the modern grim darkness of the Imperium he probably wishes that he had any of his brothers.
like in life, we don't appreciate what we have until its gone
He already said that in one of the novels. Forget which one but it was like... the first pre-retconned version of Dark Imperium. He wished he could just speak to one of them - ANY of them to relay how he felt.
But great crusade Guilliman? He was a smug asshole and its easy to see why he wasn't really liked by most of his brothers. Always wanted to do things his way or the highway or by rules and perimeters. And he's not wrong - thats how he was designed but that's not how everyone works. It took him being on ice for 10k years to come to terms with that. Now he's Jaded-Gulliman. No fucks given.
@@TKUltra971 Yes, he's smug and an ass, because all the other "brothers" would just roll over and let someone else tell them what to do.
@@RobouteGuilliman-M41 Not really. Russ, Khan and Mortarion did things there way. Konrad was too busy skinning kittens. Corax, Vulcan, Sang were the 'nice guys' of the crusade so they would if asked nicely. Manus and Dorn would have to be convinced.
Pert& Fulgrim didn't care enough about him one way or the other. Everyone else meh.
Robert was a preppy asshole wearing a collared shirts and loafers. And the emperor kept him at arms length for a reason.
@@TKUltra971 Yeah, and Roboute isn't at arms length, now, is he? And if you think Sanguineous was a nice guy, who tried murdering his own men just because he didn't like what one had to say to him, that totally takes away any credibility you think you had.
Didn't Guilliman openly call for Perterabo being censured for decimating his own legion?
To Guilliman, Perterabo was a brutal warlord that didn't care for sons, and used them as tools of war. If anything, I'd guess Guilliman could smell the hypocrisy on Perterabo a mile away
Perturabo used his men as tools of war.
Emperor smiles.
Perturabo used his legion as intended by big E. There is no dobut about it. Maybe its Guilliman that never got the lesson of necessary sacrafice. Imo Perturabo is a Primarch who has to fail becuase of the WH40 storyline even if his story in novels points in other direction (and Im a Wolfs fan for those who would call me IW shill)
@@KainSilencer I would say that Perturabo did play his part, but he did waste lives on occasion.
@@jornarcsgo2702 Well about that Id agree it wasn't necessary or even smart. I was refering to the notion that Perturabo was using his sons as tools of war. They were tools. Im sure Big E saw them as such.
@@KainSilencer The Emperor appears to be deeply conflicted on the Primarchs. On the one hand, he very clearly views them as tools and pieces on the board, as he himself demonstrated. On the other, he referred to them as his sons, and had to excise his emotions in order to kill Horus shortly before he began the longest couch nap in recorded history.
Ferrus sounds like he'd be really interesting had we had more time with him.
Shame his primarch book was just the iron hands getting outdone by the emperors children.
As an iron hands fan that book was such a missed opportunity.
I'd like to see more of Ferrus but part of me thinks his appeal comes from not being to fleshed out. I could see GW messing him up but if they could do his character justice I agree it would be awesome to see.
He is actually my Favorite Primarch, his death is just so shit, he should have been revived somehow
There was a short story that showed had Ferrus teamed up with Guilliman and be proclaimed Emperor of Secundus, he would've defeated Horus and, wait for it, dethrone even the Emperor.
He could come back necrotized
I imagine that it had to do with Perturabo’s secretiveness as to why Guilliman ignored him. However, a more dramatic explanation that I like is that Guilliman could see the cracks in the iron. He knew the Iron Warriors and Perturabo would snap at some point and didn’t want his legion to be near them when it happened. I doubt he foresaw a betrayal from them, more like he thought they would lose the will to persevere or Perturabo might become petulant and refuse needed action. Either way, I like the idea of Guilliman having that insight and maybe even wondering if he should speak with the Emperor or Horus about the Iron Warriors.
Also Perturabo was bitter felt used by the Imperium and paranoid because of his Homeworld where there was several attempt of assassination. He would also force his men to kill members of their squad for any kind of failure he could not stand his legion not being the perfect war machine at all cost
Perturabo also put so little value on each of his Marines. And was so massively inefficient in their use that his sister, a Basic human could tell it was a massive waste of man power.
When the Khan fought Mortarion, he surmised if the scars and the death guard were ever banded together, they would be invincible.
I think if Dorn and Guilliman fought together they would beat even that combo.
Specifically for Perturabo and Mortarion, it may be an overcorrection. It kept being mentioned that Guilleman values being able to know and plan around his allies, but with the two mentioned they strike me as the most "I have a square peg, and I don't care if the hole is round".
Both Morty and Perturabo are predictable, but at the very least the iron warriors DONT change tactics, instead throwing more meat at the grinder. Guilleman might not trust them to adapt if the battle shifts in a fundemental way requiring a change in tactics.
I like this, but personally I think the reason Perturabo was out was that he was too similar to Guilliman. Those two were the makers of vast machinery, not the war-gear like Ferrus Manus, but the vast societal machinery that produced the armies for interstellar war. Guilliman did it with diplomacy and creating societies, and Perterabo did it by creating inhumane, mechanical cog systems that allowed no individual any value beyond what they contributed to the whole. I think in a way, what the imperium became when Guilliman returned was very much a system that he would have seen as something that Perturabo would have designed if he had been the lord commander for the last 10,000 years....minus the worshipping the emperor thing.
I think Guilliman's reason on leaving Perturabo out of the "Dauntless Few" is the Decimation. Perturabo culling 1 out of 10 of his legion wouldn't make any sense to Guilliman. Even more so Perturabo's reasoning for it that he had to shake out that relentless "cruel math" logic that his legion is drowning in from before his return. If anything it got even worse after the decimation. After the decimation I think Guilliman knew that Perturabo has no love for his legion. I wouldn't trust a guy who's not loyal to those under his command.
@@henrybayhon2191 yeah this, I think Guillerman early in 30K had lots of respect for the Iron Warriors but not for Perturabo
@@henrybayhon2191 Do you think Guilliman would have changed his opinion on Ferrus' post Gardinaal compliance?
@@henrybayhon2191 I agree mate well said. Pretty sure it was mentioned somewhere that Guilliman in particular was furious after hearing about the decimation
2 things:
First, what about Horus?
Second, Perturabo was the shadow version of Guilliman. As suggested by Baldermort these particular brothers are aspects of a leader: the wise king in Roboute and the bitter tyrant in Perturabo.
Its strange that gman and perturabo both considered to be overall best in working machine of war, contrary to most of brothers being battlefild comanders. But in the same time perturabo will be seen as shitty comander by sun tzu standards.
@@redaerf2b414 Perturabo is a huge reason in the Assault on Terra getting as far as it did... Calling him a shitty commander is an insult to the truth.
Horus was already elevated above the rest when the list was made. Also Horus was his own master and would not mesh well with another universal strategist.
@@MrFallenone True, Perturabo was the only real counter against Dorn. Horus even said so himself
Maybe suntsu wont like perty, buuut ww2 soviet meat grinder is a valid strategy that while costly can give results in a margin of time
I think papa smurf's main objection to the Death Guard had more to do with their heavy use of destroyer squads and chemical warfare; In the lore, Guilliman had all but disbanded his own destroyer company, and would only use them as an absolute last resort.
Oh yeah I completely forgot that Gulliman looked down upon anyone using weapons of mass destruction needlesly.
He kind of seemed to hate them, they were so different in attitude to the "ideal" that he seemed to reward with promotion and recognition. I always wondered if he stuck all the lost legion marines into the destroyer companies to ensure A. their gene seed was unsuitable for re-implantation, and B. He could give them a final chance at some sort of glory.
@@standarddeviation7963 Interesting take, I'd never considered that about the lost legions and destroyers, that would make logical sense destroying any last trace of them in time, while also giving them an immediate purity of purpose and redemption after their Primarch's death (and probably most of their legion's destruction if the wolves administered said destruction).
Then again....that also supposes the Word Bearers were right in their voicing of such rumours. There was a lot of jealousy in the XVIIth over the rapid growth of the Ultramarines numbers, but when you consider Armatura and probably other training worlds in Ultramar, the rumours seems unfounded.
Regarding Morty... He may be predictable, though his style of warfare is definitiely not what Gulliman favors. Leaving scorched earth, radiated and tainted with chemicals is Gulliman reason to shy away from Morty.
Agreed. With very world that Guilliman set foot upon, he made sure it would turn to gold within a generation of his departure. He wanted to leave verdant fields and shining cities in the Ultramarines' wake instead of the ruination the Death Guard left behind for the Administratum to clean up.
tainted with toxins might be better, any molecule combination is a chemical.
@@LordCommander-ui2fw Most of the Primarchs seem to have mirrors of each other, their legions overlapping in tactics or doctrines to certain extents (probably as a redundancy like with the II and XI legions being expunged). The Ultramarines and Word Bearers were two sides of the same coin, while Guilliman lingered on worlds to build atheistic cultures that contributed to the Imperium and thrived, Lorgar lingered to build vast temple-cities and statues to the God-Emperor. Both believed they laid the foundations for the future of humanity. Had Lorgar been less religious and more loyalty orientated in doctrine, and Guilliman less rigid in his vision for Empire, the XIIIth and XVIIth may have been perfect duo in creating a vast swath of space 3 times the size of Ultramar that outstripped the 500 world's triumphs.
I just hope they bring rogal dorn back. I can see him together with gulliman restoring the imperium of man close to its former glory.
Personally I think it comes down to Roboute’s desire to build empires. Perty and Morty do destruction too well in his eyes. There was a bit in the Guilliman Primarch book where he talks to Marius about their Destroyer squads and about building not eradicating. It’s very difficult to build a world beneficial to the Imperium when all you’ve got to work with is a flattened irradiated wasteland. Congratulations on 100k!
This.
Good point, though if this was why he ruled them out, Fulgrim would fit.
As the heresy progressed, he did turn around on the usefulness of the Destroyer Squad by the time of the Ruinstorm book.
If I recall by the end of that book Guilliman realized the need for the Destroyer squads and that they were still his sons and had their purpose and he shouldn't get rid of them or try and make them something else.
Perturabo didn't make the cut because of big blue's view on the 'Decimation' of the Iron Warriors. He had a lot of time for the 4th legion and I think he was the only Primarch to openly condemn Perty for it.
Probably. Perturabo had fits of rage outside battlefield that was totally unecessery. Also contrary to how he is viewed by autors he is not that good of a strategist. Fighting sieges is usually means that you suck at shaping/choosing battlefield.
@@redaerf2b414 Or that you keep being sent to fight oponents who fight defensively...
@@MrFallenone primarches was not send to do something specific, they were just conquring worlds with any ways they can.
Guilliman is a statesman. He views all thins holistically. He chose the the best intersection of trustworthiness and capability. Which doesn't necessarily mean any of the four were best in those categories, just the best blend.
I think Angron was meant to counter Sanguinis' blood thirst, maybe to calm him down if he got too lost in his thirst
Now there's a poetic irony for you...
Perturabo didnt treat his own soldiers well and there is his method of war Guilliman doesnt like to go big if he doesnt have to Perturabo is go big or go home. He shatters planets he conquores to the point they are bearly livable. Guilliman tries to council total devistation out of the Ultramarines i guessing fighting alongside someone whos first action is how tight can I get my nuclear bombardment is probably a no!
"Stop nuking the planet! Your killing your own legionnaires!" said Guilliman "lol" said Perturabo "Lmao"
@@comradealex85 I mean I think Perturabo is the one who killed 10% of the Legion when he met them cause well there war record wasnt bad but it also wasnt one the best! The worst i'm not mad just disapointed dad reaction ever!
"Why are you freaking out about it? It's like grilling with an oven or over a barbecue, one way another you gonna have your meat done"
"Well I have no problem with am oven or a BBQ but your method is more like grilling the meat with high energy radiation and season it with neural agents."
Guillemans Dauntless Few were the Primarchs could predict and control. Allies he knows he can trust and depend on without thought. Perfect allies.
Peterabo had insecurity issues that Dorne did not. Gulliman is good at reading people, I think he would consider this inferority and need to prove himself worthy of praise that Peterabo had as a possible liability.
Alternative take: Guiliman viewed corax as his little bro and also asymmetrical in his warfare methods. Mortarian lacked that spark of tactical brilliance and fulgrim was prone to style over substance. Perturabo decimated his legion. It's stated that this pissed various primarchs off, including Guiliman. I also think it's important to remember that this also may be a personal assessment, ie. Not who is best, but who is best paired with the ultramarine legion. A lot of people thought the iron warriors were a bunch of no talent hacks fit only for garrison duty. Maybe Guiliman thought this too. Expanding on this line of thought, it's just common sense that you gonna get a lot more done at work if you aren't working with the guys who you get pissed off at or disagree with constantly. Your rather work with the dudes who got hired before you and got seniority that you get along with. The guys with anger management problems are difficult to work with. That religious dude won't shut up about his belief and it interferes with progress. That one guy works really hard, but he don't shower and that's gross. Most of the other guys are creepy, paranoid and weird and your pretty sure at least one of them is violating company policies and may be about to get fired. The kid you trained has heart but you don't got confidence in his ability. Finally, that hotshot guy is always grandstanding to impress the boss and you know he's gonna screw up really bad one of these days and drag whoever is working with him on that project through the mud with him.
And I guess Vulkan and Horus...
That new guy seems nice to work with but you worry that his lack of ambition will mean you gonna be carrying him. As for the vp, deep down you know that he gonna just take credit for your ideas and veto you every time there a disagreement.
In my mind, Guilleman is a logistician, politician and commander. He sees aspects of warfare most primarchs either don’t feel the need to, or don’t care enough to.
When Guilleman is fighting, he’s always aware of Troop movements, supplies coming in, counter intelligence, intelligence gathering, the actual organization of the armies currently at said battlefield, plus the political and logistical repercussions of certain actions, plus a fuck load of other factors from unexpected warp fuckery to mundane problems.
G man is also a very fair, intellectual type. He values open brainstorming and thought. He also values those who are honorable in some degree, regardless of whether or not it’s a match of his own honor code. He’s genuinely a decent dude.
Guilleman needs those who are strong enough, and skilled enough to match him as a commander and authority figure. He needs someone who’s at least partially aware that war is a massive machine and the actual legions, while the most in your face part, don’t even take up the majority of the people who go into making it work. (Aka, guardsman, navy, expedition fleets, etc etc).
He needs those who are a good mix of reactive and proactive. Having one solid strategy is alright if you’re a master at it, and using that same basic concept over and over is… ok, but that greatly limits the types of conflict that commander can thrive in. He needs commanders who can notice, react, and discuss active and potential battlefield changes, be able to read the tide of a battle, and have a fluidity/strength that can match or exceed his own legion in some capacity.
And the most important thing, he needs to be able to sync up his Forces with theirs. All primarchs can do this to some extent but primarchs like Mortarion and Pertuabo will have trouble syncing up to the more nuanced tactics of the Ultramarines.
That also means hell primarchs could have made this list. The final 4 probably came down to track record for joint campaigns, the relationship between G man and his brother, and personal preference. Personally I think Corax could have made this list in his own way due to how his legion goes about warfare. Non insane and sadistic assassins, spies, scouts, etc are a massive asset to any army and I think G man understands this, but probably doesn’t have the same working relationship with Corvus that he does someone like Rogal.
Sorry for the rant
Congrats on 100k Wolf Lord Rho. The Russ would be proud!
It's simple, Perty was a whinny little boy
(this message was approved by Rogal Dorn)
Guilliman's intuition was good. Mortarion and Perturabo are flawed, in that they don't care for lives lost, which goes against Guilliman's ideals (and is certainly detrimental in the long run - which isn't made clear enough in the books, especially in regards to the World Eaters). They are also too stubborn and difficult to work with and hold grudges towards many of their brothers that got more attention. Corvus is too specialized toward covert ops rather than open warfare, so he is automatically more niche.
My explanation would be mundane. The authors of these books often times have a hard time juggling 18 different primarchs and the spiderweb of their relationships and personalities. They forgot Perturabo, and with G-Man being a paragon of loyalty, they were focused on the loyal sons.
Someone put forth a reasonable explanation that Perturabo killed 10% of his own legion.
@@MrSpartanspud the reason was that Perturabo decided to
@@MrSpartanspud They were fighting a lot better after that
@@jkgf4671 Sure but G-man had a big issue with this and even tried to change his mind ... it would be a good argument for why he could not trust him ....
@@jkgf4671 Because he executed loyal sons or because the legion had a Primarch leading them, I think I know which one is more likely.
While Jaghatai was perfectly living up to his role as being unpredictable, that doesn't lend itself very well to an extreme strategist like Guilliman. Guilliman's claim that he could win any war with these 'Dauntless few' just tells me that they are the ones he feels he could count on doing exactly what would have been planned, and not go off on their own, due to either pride or being goaded by the enemy. While I'm not sure that fits Ferrus Manus--as he comes across as a hothead a few times--it does fit the rest of them.
I imagine that Ferrus could be relied upon to stick to a plan once decided. When leading a force he could become impatient with lack of progress sometimes, but it stands to reason he'd be the ideal bulwark to depend upon and the unbreakable hammer to crush a foe with when Guilliman was overall commander. Ferrus was also known to be the best tactician of all the Primarchs as voiced by Horus when he hoped Fulgrim could convince his brother to turn traitor. Guilliman could probably rely on Ferrus to give his expert opinion of any situation, and then steadfastly stick to whatever plan was agreed.
Ultimately I think it might boil down to his personal relationship in some cases. With Perturabo though it feels like it could be a loyalist/traitor oversight! Congrats on 100k 🙏🏻
It likely comes down to g-man knowing of the decimation and how perty fights his lack of care of lives and how he leaves worlds burning husks
I mean, dauntless means fearless,spirited, unflinching, indomitable unable to being intimated or subdued… Russ, sanguinius, dorn and ferus certainly fit the word well. (Or at least they demonstrate this descriptions the most.)
Sanguinius having the physical prowess and skill to overcome any challenge,
his rage making him absolutely indomitable in battle.
Russ… well Russ! Physical embodiment of fearlessness and determination. The steely, confident unshakable mountain of war.
Dorn, being the strategist to match guilliman himself. He’s will unmatched by any! Pure determination . The Silent, yet unmovable loyalty made manifest.
And ferus… possessing everything the other 3 do. Being a master tactician, yet having one of the greatest physical prowess amongst his brothers, possessing Unbreakable will and creating a synergy of the other 3 worlds.
Then getting done in by pretty boy Fulgrim.
@@PumpkinHoard Ferrus was fighting both fulgrim and a greater daemon that was inside fulgrim it was no fair fight .
@@PumpkinHoard Fulgrim choked out an Avatar of Kaine, underestimating him would be a mistake.
@@FoxHound-ut1hu And yet Sanguinius is both prettier AND stronger. His hair will never be as fabulous as the Emperors.
@@PumpkinHoardprettier? Sure, stronger? Yep, a better person? Definitely debatable. I mean Fulgrim also helped his people by making Chemos a paradise while Sanguinius left his people to suffer on an irradiated hell hole. Before the Lear blade fulgrim was truly a champion of the people.
Peterabo would be redundant choice since ferus and dorn would in essence cover the boon that he could bring while being more amiable to working with and fallowing another primarch’s lead. And if anything guillermen seems to see himself in the roll of organizer in these potential team ups. Hell dorn even though he hated ahd I mean hated the splitting of the legions as much as Amit to the point you would think he would adopt him he fallowed guillermens lead I doubt peterabo would ever fallow the edicts of big boy blue the same seems true with fulgrim who as a perfectionist would not mesh well with guillermen in a team effort.
The Dauntless few is of course just a literary trick to highlight the loss of Ferrus, but if we engage with it honestly, then here are my thoughts;
Guilleman values efficiency, tactical flexibility, systems and honorable straightforward combat.
Dorn and Sanguinius are obviously perfect here. He liked them, they were super dependable and their ways of War was easy to adapt the Ultramarines to.
Russ was a wild soul, but Guilleman clearly had a soft spot for him, and if he agreed to a battle plan, he would keep his word to the death.
Horus And The Lions was to much flash and ego for Guilleman. He respected them, but didn't love fighting with them.
Mortarion and Perturabo was predictable, but unlikable, anti-social and too brutal in War for Guilleman.
Flugrim was to much style and grandeur. He and Guilleman didn't see eye to eye.
Magnus was too mysterious. The Khan dito.
Alpharius and Guilleman hated each other. So did he and Lorgar even before Monarchia. Angron was a lose canon at the best of times.
Corax could be a choice, but his Legion might not be so compatible with Guillemans as they were with the 16th before Corax was found. Vulkan is kinda not spoken of often by his brothers. Guilleman calls him; "That buried Soul Vulkan".
Konrad was just insane.
Ferrus was a bulldozer in Primarch form. Everything about the Iron 10TH is straightforward strength, massed armour and focused destruction. They would be easy to complement, and for all of Ferrus's temper and spiky personality he was a mega dependable warrior and friend. He was found 3th so every Primarch knew him well and most had fought with him.
Well said.
Except ... Guilliman did not hate Lorgar ... until Calth.
@@youtubevoice1050 You are right. Dislike is a better word for their relationship at that time. The author of practical books vs the religious poet and theology professor.
It wasn't flashiness or ego that put Guilliman off of The Lion. It is that the Lion was, at his core, the Emperor's eradicator.
Russ was meant to be a threat, to be seen and heard but never used. The Lion and his Dark Angels were the blade in the dark as much as the one on the hip, the Legion trusted most to do the horrific things that needed be done to ensure complete and total victory no matter the moral cost in the name of The Great Crusade.
All of the Primarchs were designed to excel at a specific attribute, Guilliman is logistics, The Khan is hit and run, Alpharius Omegon is intelligence. His Father's first was bred for one exacting task that makes him the best of all his brothers; War. The lion can match blades with Fulgrim and best Guilliman strategically, and while this may seem like an excellent ally to have, there is no trust between the two for The Lion viewed Guilliman as trying to establish his own Empire and threatening his fathers work, and being a threat to The Emperor in the eyes of The Lion surely would have meant he would have no qualms about destroying his brother or his legion.
Hard to trust a guy who would brutally and efficiently remove you and your sons from the annals of history with complete conviction because he thinks you're empire-building.
Agreed. Few things:
1. Guilliman did not hate Lorgar and felt Monarchia Rebuke was excessive
2. He felt sorry for Konrad and calls him „poor Konrad“ in Know No Fear
I'm a simple man I see a Rho upload and I click.
The one for me that seems strange is the Lunar Wolves were very well balanced army with a slight lean towards assault while the Ultramarines are the same but lean the other way so they would match up well and Horus was an excellent commander.
True, but it also comes down to the fact Horus would no doubt expect to lead any campaign above Guilliman, which big G wouldn't mind, but it then makes his desire for the dauntless few mute, as Horus had his own tactics and desires. Also that paragraph wasn't discussing which legions could be depended upon most, only those Primarch's personalities Guilliman could always rely on. It stands to reason Guilliman would naturally take charge of a detachment of lunar wolves if they were being used in a campaign he was overseeing, as the XVIth were very dependable legion with or without their Primarch.
I'd argue that Perturabo's apparent callousness clashes with Guilimans absolute pragmatism.
Guilliman is ultimately a pragmatist, he sacrifices when he has to, but tries to avoid that when not necessary. Guilliman will also attempt other methods of conflict resolution if available, but Perturabo, for all his genius and capabilities was blunt instrument. He cared not for losses so far as the objective was achieved and employed the most brutal attacks to break his opponents, in this I think it's the main reason Guilliman could never like Perturabo, Guilliman would look for a different direction if it was necessary and available, but Perturabo always chose the most direct and brutal option that granted maximum results, regardless of casualties.
Love the video. Honestly me and my friends play Deathwatch and we love the dynamic of Blood Angels for me, and Dark Angels, Iron Hands, and White Scars for the team. And Honestly if I had to pick one Legion for war it would be the Dark Angels as they have the best tactics and weapons as demonstrated by their record and DAOT weapons. As a combination Blood Angels as the assault force, White Scars as fast attack and maneuver force, and Iron Hands as technology and vehicles as well as support weapons. Plus Blood Angels and White Scars are Psyker heavy. I have played with Salamanders replacing the Iron Hands and Raven Guard replacing the White Scars and that worked well in Deathwatch.
grats on 100k!
You can depend on ferrus to rush in and get his head lopped off ? The rage of ferrus cost the imperium dearly.
He was infected by Necron tech after his first clash with Arsinoth. It was essentially a necron version of the Butcher's Nails. I'm sure the metal arms made it worse and as Ferrus says himself, he isn't sure he could remove them if he wanted to.
He didn't "Rush off". The Istvaan battle was an order. He was spearheading what they thought was 7 loyalist legions. So it wasn't exactly reckless.
I don't get why he wouldn't trust Corax. Kruze was never quite right. But Corax was always well tempered and excellent at what he was made for. He could go toe to toe with any of his brothers and was simply the master of stealth. Kruze even said I use the night but he is the night. As much as I don't like the ultra marines and their primarch. It just confuses me as to how he didn't recognize one of his fathers best creations. I know everyone has their favorites Sanguinius forever. But Corax is just as under rated and un appreciated as Perterabo. In my opinion.
I think he trusted Corax, but viewed his role in large scale war as very specific and limited; The Raven Guard were built for pinpoint strikes and small operations. They were never the most effective legion in a massed boots on the ground role.
@@barlotardy but would you say that corax himself wasn't 100% trustworthy and perfect for his role? This is about being a dauntless few. And I think there was no one as dedicated or as aggressive in his specific role. We can say Russ or Angron were super aggressive without a doubt. Bit their jobs were more universal. Corax had a specific tight job that had to be done with a mastery of stealth and calculations that most astartes would toss and reach for the bolt guns rather thrn do. Maybe that's just me.
@@TheFaulkned I don't disagree with any of you points, I'm just saying that Corax operated so differently from Guilliman's preferred methods of war that he wouldn't be at the top of his list.
@@barlotardy But it’s about complimenting the Ultramarines and they are very good at that but aren’t exactly known for being subtle
@@barlotardy that's a good distinction to make. I just find it unusual for someone like Guilleman to over look the potential.
You, Luetin09, and Baldermort...
You the real Dauntless Few
Here's the quote where the Dauntless Few are mentioned. It's referring to tactical simulations, in which it isn't theory. It's referring to those simulations where the Primarch pantheon have played for years. It is mentioned in other novels but the consideration is these are the results. It's not theoretical
"In all tactical simulations, Guilliman shows particular favour for certain of his brothers. He refers to them as the dauntless few, the ones he can most truly depend upon to do what they were made to do. Dorn and his Legion are one. Ill-tempered, argumentative Russ is another. Sanguinius is a third. Guilliman admires the Khan greatly, but the White Scars are neither predictable nor trustworthy. Ferrus Manus and the Iron Hands were always the fourth of the dauntless few. With any one of those key four - Dorn, Russ, Manus or Sanguinius - Guilliman always claimed he could win any war. Outright. Against any foe. Even in extremis, the Ultramarines could compact with any one of those four allies and take down any foe. It was primary theoretical. In any doomsday scenario that faced the Imperium, Guilliman could play it out to a practical win provided he could rely on one of those four. And of them, Manus was the key. Implacable. Unshakeable. If he was at your side, he would never break."
I wish I had gotten here sooner cause I would have been able to make some contributions
1) pertarabo wasn't to be trusted because when he took control of his legion he ordered decimation as he didn't believe that they were "up to his standards" gulliman and several others spoke out about it because they viewed the iron warriors as one of the best legions.... honestly I think that the iron warriors would have made the cut with another primark but with pertarabo no way
2) it always seemed to me the dauntless few were the few he would need to continue the crusade (russ is the emporers executioner so he could deal with any other of the primarks or something that kills it, rogal can design perfect defense and attack, sanguninius was a symbol that could be rallied for, iron hands were able to get it done)
Rho must have Psykers in his secret employ; I was searching for a video on this exact topic last night. Now I am blessed by this video to enjoy during my lunch break 😜
Coincidentally, I’m currently listening to Know No Fear as I work my way through the HH collection. Great video, thanks.
I'm a fan of the Lion. In this case I think perhaps he could embrace the opposite of Gulliman's need for control and embrace a synercistic blend of the known and unknown. Keep the enemy guessing and maximize autonomy via decentralized execution and flexibility.
The 1st Legion (Extermination and Resolution augmented by rapid suprise precision assault)
Supported by:
The Known and the visible hand to hold the enemy. Perterabo and the Iron Warriors and Mortasrians Death Guard (as an Anvil/Blender Center)
The Unknown/rapid assault Magnus and Thousand Suns with Sanguinius and his Blood Angels
I feel like rather than "predictable" Bobby chose the few for their "reliability". The very fact that Perturabo turned proves he wasn't truly iron, he just wanted to be.
My Dauntless Few:
The Lion for eldest sibling vibes, I connect with him more than I realize.
Perturabo just wants to create in peace, but can push through difficult times.
The Khan for pure badassery and mysteriousness.
Vulkan because HUGGGSSSS!!! You soggin gittt!!
This video is fantastic, but I feel it lacked a bit on why the legions that were selected among the dauntless few were selected. Especially about the specific personalities of the legions/primearchs in question.
My take on Perturabo and Morty compared to Ferrus:
Stories of “Decimation” coming through could have disgusted big G man, and also Perturabo liked to fight attrition wars no matter the cost - kinda like Mortarion, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I see Ferrus and the Iron Hands were more stalwart in their fighting style due to “upgrading” their bodies and being too “priceless” to just throw at the enemy
I understand a certain dislike from Gulliman towards Perterabo. As a commander, while Pert valued logistics and efficiency in a way that Big G would agree on, Perterabo lacked the same considered restraint and long term planning. While Gulliman did not have the same heart as Vulkan, he was by nature an empire builder, always leaving a planet stable and under new management if he could. Perterabo, especially towards the end of the crusade, left very little standing when he was done in a warzone. Infrastructure, population centers, etc. were shelled into submission and left broken in the passing of the Iron Warriors, which makes for a very difficult process of stabilizing and producing a loyal and productive world in the long run.
Gulliman had a preferred form of warfare, and his chosen few fit into it in their own way. The Imperial Fists could be counted on in a siege, but had the self control to know when to stop and even when to adjust tactics.
Russ and the Wolves were brutal, but after the Primarch broke the Route of their more barbaric habits, they tended to target mostly military elements without pointless destruction as opposed to the wanton slaughter of the World Eaters. Their sheer speed and brutality also likely played a large role in forcing early surrenders in a number of theaters.
The Blood Angels, for all their perhaps questionable reputation at times, still had at their head a peerless diplomat and figurehead for the crusade, perfect for getting a recently pacified population on your side. There was a reason he chose Sanguinus as the figurehead of Imperium Secundus
And the Iron Hands were efficient, brutal, unbending, and, like the Imperial Fists, possesses of a mindset to valued the objective over all.
Gulliman had friends, but his Dauntless Few were not considered that because they were friends. They were considered that because they each played a valuable role in the Ultramarine style of warfare of efficient, swift, and reliable victory with enough of the conquered world left behind to become a productive member of the Empire.
Now, go a little deeper into things Gulliman would not have said out loud. Gulliman was, again, an empire builder. The worlds he conquered became part of Ultramar, which often acted as a nation unto itself. Every one of the Dauntless Few did not really care about doing the same. Russ openly didn't care about sticking around after a fight, seeing his legion as having a purpose and anything outside of it as pointless. Sanguinus was beloved, but partly because he had no real desire to rule either. Ferus was similar to Russ in that, aside from collecting important tech or being on the good side of liberated forgeworlds, he had no use for or interest in connections with the common citizen. And Rogal Dorn made it his clear stance that the Legions had no place in ruling the Imperium, only guarding it. Every one of the Dauntless few could be relied upon to win the fight... and then leave, moving on as the Ulramarines secured and incorporated the spoils into their own growing sub-empire.
I think the issue between Perturabo and Russ in the Dauntless Few is that Perturabo is willing to throw his own men away for victory in a grinding siege, similar to Mortarion. Whereas Russ has more common sense (kekwProspero) and would be willing to not take insane losses for a victory, but also listen to orders and his brothers.
This the same Russ who fucked off to fight Horus alone when Dorn told him they would have no chance of winning without him but left terra anyway? Don't gemme wrong Leman Russ is awesome but he doesn't listen to his brothers at all. Jaghatai is more dependable than Russ... and he's the wild card
@@banneduser5187 Don't forget that if he hadn't hesitated he would've killed Horus.
So yeah, that's the same Russ, the same one who can be expected to do the stuff directly that no other Legion would do in that way and effectively eliminate the head of the snake if need be.
And no one knew the Khan until the Siege really. No one knew his thoughts, strategies, etc.. So it's pretty reasonable that Guilliman wouldn't have ever put him in.
That’s also an extreme case
Horus was found first
Russ was second
They were the brothers that knew each other the longest so Russ took this extremely personally
In most other times he’s be more reasonable
Regarding Perturabo: In addition to what others already mentioned regarding Gulliman's view of/ reaction to the decimation, there is also the fact that regular Imperialis Auxilia units refused, even to the point of mutiny!, to be attached to the Iron Warriors ("Corpse Grinders"). Even at the best of times, THAT is a lot of sand in the military clockwork and certainly a logistical annoyance.
Probably had to do with GW with that all "his" choices ended up being loyalists, nothing more.
who's?
Perturabo had no empathy for his sons and did not care about the worlds he conquered. Guilliman cares for his sons and developed the worlds he conqured.
The only reason I see perturabo being left out is because he always does thing the hardest way possible and ge doesn’t really care about the causality count and guilliman wouldn’t want to risk his sons lives like that
Guilliman's "Dauntless Few" are pretty right on. Great video topic. I would very much like a deep dive into Angron, what he was intended and how broken he was. Another Vulkan would have been very cool. Also, not including Perturabo I feel may have been because he went to Chaos and that had influence on the author at time of writing. Agreed, there really is no reason why Perturabo would not have been on that list.
I wonder why Alpharius wasn't included he seems like a pretty trustworthy guy
He can’t be on the list more then 3 times as a rule
If I recall correctly Bobby G called for censure of Perty for his decimation, so definitely not exactly the best way to ensure trust. Besides that I believe it's more a conflict of personalities between the two and the view on adaptability. The Ultramarines are flexible, while the Iron Warriors are the antithesis of flexibility. Don't get me wrong, the IV is my favorite legion, but they just do not want to change. They like to throw more men at the problem instead of changing their style around their enemies, even if it would save a lot more of their legionares. Plus having both Perturabo and Gulliman in the same campaign would be redundant in terms of logistics, give that both Primarchs are massive fucking nerds when it comes to logistics.
One point about world eaters - contrary to your conclusion, I would say that their rage overdrive actually makes them easily predictable, not the opposite. You can count on them not being able to follow any more complex strategy and just going into blind rage. Which obviously isn't something Guilliman would see as a good thing.
About Perturabo, I think it was his complete disregard for even his sons life what prevented Guilliman from choosing him. Ferrus, while similar in temper to Perturabo, at least did not actively hate his own warriors and position. On the other side Perturabo hated the role he was forced into. You do not want that in someone you rely on.
Mortarion - once again disregard for life, plus one can not build an empire on toxic wasteland he left in his wake, and that is huge no for Lord of 500 worlds.
Lorgar - I think you nailed it.
Fulgrim, well preheresy Emperor children looks like they would fit perfectly... as you said it might be their small numbers. Or the fact that they often overlooked practical and was chasing theoretical instead... I believe Roboute wrote something about that somwhere.
It could be a simple case of familiarity, given the size of their own empires and their location in space it’s likely dorn and guilliman were found at roughly the same time. Partnering new found primarchs with their “older” brothers is something we know has happened more than once, leman and ferrus were some of the earliest to be rediscovered so maybe they were tasked with showing the ropes to the 2 new primarchs and sanguinius was added to the group because he’s everyone’s favourite. That’s just my theory whatever the case I’d love a book of the 5 of them interacting with each other.
Perturabo is basically Guilliman through a glass darkly
Imagine if Angron was a Healer or Counselor of the Primarchs and what he would have done with the World Eaters, had the Butcher's Nails not been installed, or could be removed without harm. I find it almost funny if one of the most violent Legions was turned into basically "Salamanders", but with battle axes instead of fire.
I know I am way late to this however, I have a thought.
You are so focused on how they would operate in combat, but I think it'smore personal than that. It's not about predicting combat. Guilliman can do that to any of his brothers. To me, it comes down to trusting his brothers to put the dream of the Imperium above themselves.
Each one outside of the Dauntless Few has a major chip on their shoulder. A desire to prove themselves. Even Vulcan, sad to say.
The Lion: trusts nobody and believes they are better then everyone.
Fulgrim: the arrogant chase of perfection.
Curze: Became what he hated and couldnt see it.
Corax: Pushed himself to the outside of the family.
Angron: Just broken
Perturabo: A huge Napoleon complex.
Alpharius: Too many secrets, used his brothers as little more than tools.
Morty: another ego to prove itself
Horus: yet more superiority and Napoleon complex.
Magnus: similar to the Lion, so much superiority. Know-it-all without realizing their ignorance.
Lorgar: Blind Zealotry and ambition
Vulcan: Torn between being a warlord and his heart for humanity.
The Khan: His aloofness did no favors.
The ones he chose were those who he believed would put the Imperium above themselves. The rest he couldnt be assured of that. They might crumble under the pressures of their own doubts, or succumb to their ambitions and turn on themselves and others even if they didnt realize it.
Dorn is pretty obvious. Russ made no pretenses of what he was and he wanted no more than that. The Angel, even with his secret, never wavered in the Imperiums ideals. Ferrus, despite his temperment, didnt get angry to prove himself superior, he got angry when the ideals of the Imperium were cast asunder for personal gain.
Above all, those few would hold true to the Imperium, just as Guilliman would and has. Thus he could win any war because that dream kept them united while others would succumb to doubts and personal vanity.
I understands why Dorn was picked. The epitome of duty, honor, loyalty and reasoning.
At the end of the heresy, when the codex was forced upon the Iron Fists, Dorn could see that it was a risk for a 2. civil war. One that might break the Imperium of man. And complied unwillingly, for the best of the Imperium in the end.
And the fact that Dorn, for better or worse, never lied.
Dorn is the one brother come hell, high water or warp fuckery, that will not break or bend. But as we see after the Emperor's fight on the vengeful spirit, he got a little twisted. Not as bad as most the other brothers, but you can sense his "feeling of failure".
EXCELLENT VID Rho.
To propose a possibilities, it is allwhat they cherished/worshiped/craved...maybe????
Angron = INSANE....killed his own sons....
Fulgrim = His sons were literally named the Emperors Children...this sounds maybe like there was not just feelings toward the Emperor, but also back, like reciprocal. Cherished glory....although there is evidence to support he also cherished humanity.
Ferrus = IN THE DAUNTLESS CLUB (Tactic wise, Gilly probably could have let Ferris slowly walk forward towards the enemy and Gilly protects his back and sides, and maintains supply chains .)
Lorgar = ...was 1000% infatuated with the Emperor...obviously. Cherished dad.
Horus = Too much time with the Emperor and had his "charisma" gift. Cherished fame/being in charge.
Mortarion = Even Jaghatai commented that HE, himself, would have issues going against Morty because he knew so little about him...Morty was a loner, intentionally. Think "emo-kid" type from the 80s.
Vulkan = Cared too much about humanity from a small scale perspective. Cherished humans.
Konrad = too much slink in the night and put dead horses in your bed before he kills you... Cherished terror/shock and awe tactics.
Perturabo = infatuated with the Emperor, almost like a "finally, my people" when he met the emperor. Put this next to his cringy drama queen actions with his adopted father from his home planet...he was an emotional brooding kind of guy....and the final nail... I have one word....DECIMATION. How can you EVER trust a man who orders his sons to murder themselves??? Cherished praise.
Corvus = Hit and run tactics are his specialty. He can stand and fight, but this is not his specialty. Cherished unpredictable swift actions.
Leman === IN THE DAUNTLESS CLUB (The wolf will attack, Gilly can just protect his flanks and manage his wake ((the worlds behind them)) and just let Leman charge forward until he needs a break, then Russ can come back to refresh at Gilly's battle lines. Sword and Shield tactics.
Magnus = Agreed with your assessment. Too much warp reliance and would most likely make mistakes trying to gain knowledge versus backing your brother. Cherished knowledge.
Rogal === IN THE DAUNTLESS CLUB, but now Gilly is the sword and Rogal is the shield. Gilly still handles supply chains.
Alpharius= sneaky sneak when you are sneaking. This is not good bed fellows with a brother that you need to rely on. Gilly's amazing moves with Terra high council upon his return, proves Gilly can be a bit sneaky too...BUT....Alpha/Omi swim in the sneaky river for a living. Cherished the shadow ops.
Sanguinius === IN THE DAUNTLESS CLUB (Truth be told, the Archon and Gilly probably would have fought side by side, Gilly handles supply chains, but other than this, side by side.)
Lion= The Lion doesn't seem to work well as a team, with others, and this is a characteristic that echoes in his sons. Cherished independence.
Jaghatai = IS A CONQUEROR...his namesake is literally Genghis Khan...arguably the greatest conqueror the world has ever known. He thought of the Emperor as a bigger "warlord" so he followed him. The Khan valued CONQUEST.
the reason he ruled the emperors children out is probably that they are to over complicated and precise in their tactics. it would put guilliman on the back foot trying to play catch up when he sees him self in the command position. ever he would blunt them by making them fall in with the ultra marines or he would be unable to keep up with them it could also be their small numbers
I think your summary was perfect. The lord of iron was paranoid. That can be a major flaw.
Space Caesar's employment list of his peers.
Kinda funny how all brothers share one common feature and that is superiority complex.
Therefore, flexing on each other by not putting them on their employment lists.
16:43 "Honesty, I think we need to get some respect back on that guy's (Perturabo's) name." That thought along with the fact that the Black Templars are stone-cold heretics for having massacred their Primaris marines just gave Chapter Master Valrak a stroke. LOL
I haven't read all the source material, but I can see him not wanting Fulgrim for his (even by the standard of primarchs) ego and, if he knew about Perturabo's decimation of his own legion, he couldn't trust his methods, even if he can appreciate their effectiveness.
I think its important to remember the order of being found. Gilly had a lot of time to get to know some of his brother and thus trusted them and knew them more.
I think the "dauntless few" is just the "emotionally stable few" minus Corax.
Guiliman scratching his head " I feel like I'm forgetting someone, oh never mind 4 it is"
The Four statues that Stand upon Macragge with Guilliman’s Statue.
I thinl the reason he doesn't count Perturabo among the Dauntless Few is Perty's insistance on doing everything the hardest way possible in order to claim he had suffered the most to reach the goal and thus was entitled to the greatest recognition and praise.
I think it all boils down to 1) who would make a battle plan and stick to it and 2) who was willing and able to come to effective rescue when the plan went sideways. While Guilleman could trust Ferrus Manus to come to his aid even if they had ended their last interaction on bad terms or disagreed regarding the plan, maybe the same couldn't be said of Perturabo. Hell, Perturabo's abandonment of the seige of Terra showed he'd do it. Or while Jaghatai would have definitely come to the fast-attack rescue in the event of emergency, could he be trusted to stick with the plan as originally agreed or would he go overboard somehow like how he got lost in the webway for ten thousand years? And maybe Corvus could be trusted to stick with the plan and might want to come to a rescue but his entire method of warfare wasn't really geared toward being capable of saving the day. And all the secretive Primarchs are just unknowable variables.
Easiest way to explain Fulgrim, Mortarion and Pertarabo is that they would be Horus's go to brothers. Fulgrim and his Legion basically pigibacked with the Lunar Wolves till there numbers were large enough after beign nearly whipped out. Mortarion was also as closer to Horus in that same sort of vein. Pertarabo not being picked is more to do with that Guilliman gelled better with Dorn than with the Lord of Iron. The only one of the 4 that would have appeared on both Horus and Guilliman's list would be Sanguinius, which i can totally understand why.
If you were to match them against one another it makes sense in a way:
Leman Russ: Fulgrim (Both of similar size legions and do what they do best)
Dorn : Pertarabo (Same same but different *fortify/siegecraft*)
Ferus Manus: Mortarion (relentless grinding advance)
Dorm would be on Horuses list they were really close too
Dang rho man's been waiting years for my lorgar video 😂. Also what's your thoughts about Horus not making the list since you did traitors too ?
Mortarion - many people forget that Mortarion was good at politics, he managed to pull the Council of Nikea, and he was very much like the quiet kid in school who is in fact very clever and scheming, it goes for the entire Death Guard, when they fight, they are quiet. He also was very secritive, almost as much as Lion, if not more, its no wonder Guillman didn't trust him.
Fulgrim - althought the Emperor Children were great at the beggining, being Emperor's favorites, they were also glory seekers, perfectionists, and elitists, it was all very well shown during the Murder campain. Its possible that Guiliman was jelous of their favor with the Emperor, or thought Fulgrim would want to be in command instead of Guiliman.
Perturabo - he and Iron Warriros were too brutal and totalitarian for Roboute, much like World Eaters. Guiliman wanted to build empire, Perturabo would gladly nuke every planet he had to conquer, and you can't build an empire on shattered/radio active planets. Its possible he didn't want to argue with Perturabo why they can't just nuke the city, much like with Lion.
Lorgar - after Monachia Word Bearers still did not have good opinion among legions, its said people made jokes about them not being good at fighting. Guiliman thought about their progress as them trying to redeem themselves. Beside, they didn't really have any speciality until they started to use Warp magic and demons, they were most likely the most ordinary legion, very similar to Dark Angels, Imperial Fists and Ultramarines. its possible Guiliman didn't see a point in having 3 overall average legions, or that he didn't want their bad reputation/history reflect on his perfect school record.
Pertarobo did what he asked but was resentful, he never did as he was designed without a bitterness
Dorn is the fortress, Guilliman the administration, Manus the machination, Sanguinius the ruler and Russ the executioner. All brutally honest, or Sanguine. Enough to hold the Imperium. The rest were more or less warlords.
I also think it could be canon Perturabo shared a kinship with the Khan. Also motion obsessed and nearly obscured in the mind of others. They aren't forgotten on purpose, it's a trait. The scars embrace it and perturabo hates it. Pretty sure Corax and Alpharius had a more physical embodiment of the same trait.
If I were to choose my Dauntless Few, I would go with the Lion, Sanguinius, Guilliman and Vulcan - one that would guard humanity, no matter what, one that would temper the darkness of humanity into something better, one that could build, and not just destroy, and one that could truly understand what humanity is.
The renown and skill Ferrus is given in the Great Crusade, I don't understand how Vulkan nor Corax wouldn't be considered in Gullimans list if Ferrus held them in such high esteem that he would go to war next to them during Istvaan.
Vulkans legion is likely to small Same with corax both are lower manned legions
I could see Gulliman finding Perturtabo's attitude to war to be a bit wasteful with lives, as he is described as seeing war as being like a maths equation that can be solved with sheer quantity of bodies/materials. While I think they would both find common ground in a lot of areas, I could see Gulliman disapproving of this and finding it unnecessary.
Perturabo’s decimation surely reached Robutes ears, something he would find unconscionable. He like a Dorn with glaring moral flaws. Not to mention Pert himself was not a lot of fun to be around.
I feel like Perty not being included could stem from a simple dislike regarding to him being such a bitter individual. Also I'm not sure if the dauntless few was lore released after Perty brutally hit Olimpia though if it is the case it proves that Perty had a temper he was subject to as Ferrus. I also think that a part of GW making Giliman the saddest for Ferrus could have been just them driving home the fact that Ferrus was the only one who was truly killed. Corax did survive and Volkan (at the time at least, and perhaps still) could not die.
The culling of Olympia happened months before the Heresy itself. Horus was already a pawn of Chaos at the time.
Perty and Girly Man have very different leadership styles and mannerisms. Perty saw fit to kill one in ten of his son's because their stats were sub par. Girly Man would be disgusted by the thought of such things. Not to mention that Perty was entirely objective focused and civilian casualties weren't a statistic that he ever considered crossing his desk. Girly Man may not be the most compassionate, but he understands there's value in being mindful to the civilian populace. They're not just another obstacle.
Speaking of obstacles, Perty was paranoid and often pretentious. If Girly Man, or any of his brothers he didn't like dared question his war table. Perty would pitch a fit and belittle them.
"Girly Man may not be the most compassionate" Bruh. He dedicated huge amounts of time into improving the lives of people of the 500 worlds
I think perts problem is his temper. Unlike ferruses anger, which grew slowly but exploded powerfully, perturabos anger would explode seemingly at random. Ferrus would see a siege going poorly and would find fault in the plan, adapting similarly to the way the ultra marines would, but in a way that allows the iron hands to fall back on their preferred method of war. Perturabo would stubbornly grind ahead regardless of if the tactic worked or not. While this makes him consistent, it means he can dig himself into a hole he can’t escape from given enough time, and not even guilliman would be able to talk him around to changing course.
I think not choosing Mortarion or Horus was to avoid chain-of-command issues; Horus whether intending to or not would wrest control of a campaign, while Mortarion is the most likely to simply disobey an order out of spite or a perceived slight.
I think the Dauntless Few list was as much a case of Guilliman choosing the Brothers he respected and trusted the most and working backwards to explain his reasoning to make it sound logical rather than revealing it as an emotional decision.
Considering how most of the Imperium saw the Iron Warriors I can’t see Guilliman respecting them in the same way as the Hands, Angels, Fists or Wolves. Guilliman would look at the casualty rates of the Iron Warriors and dismiss ol’ Perty as a blunt instrument at best, as he never got to show his tactical brilliance during the crusade. I can see Guilliman having similar issues with the Death Guard as the Ultramarines weren’t keen on collateral damage, relegating their Destroyer Squads to a single chapter for certain situations rather than distributing them out.
I also can see him having issues with Fulgrim’s vanity (at odds with Ultramarine practicality).
My view on Perturabo is that Guilleman didn't pick him due to him not having truly utilised his potential. We know that he had countless wonderous designs to build up Olympia, maybe to the equal of Macragge and Terra, but never built them. I think Guilleman looked at this as wasted potential. And if Perturabo is willing to waste potential in peace, how can you guarantee that he won't do so in war. Compare this to Russ, Sanguinius, Ferrus or Dorn. All four operated at the full measure of their potential at the time, in addition to their predictability. I think that this was the deciding factor for Roboute.
Jaghatai was also known for being closest to Horus and Magnus, so he was questionable. Also, if all five (Dauntless Few and Guilliman and Co.) were on the same field, he had offense and defense, which allowed the Ultramarines could be the flexible mobile reserve and support.
Of Ferrus Magnus and Guilliman little is written however it is in the lore that after Ferrus died the Iron Hands themselves turned to Guilliman so if his sons held him in regard that mustve come from Ferrus to Make Roubete the Iron hands Step Primarch to the point of Lucius the eternal mentioning that the Iron Hands using Ultramarine firing patterns. as it where what I dont understand is why is Horus's legion not mentioned as one of the Dauntless few there is a clear appreciation of the Ultramarines from Horus and some shared strategies like the speartip "kill the head let the body die" Oddly Horus when lamenting the primarchs he had compared to those who stayed loyal compared Guilliman to his eventual Killer Fulgrim
My take on Perturabo not being in the list is super fickle but probably works.
Roboute is an even-numbers kind of person. His OCD is too great to make odd lists, proclamations, and statutes. If one brother fit a role, then a similar one was redundant. As someone with crippling OCD, I can relate.
A hilarious and yet simple and possible insight.
Honestly his dauntless few makes sense there all solid choices.
The white scars have always been a mystery and most of time no one even knew where they were so in the mind of gulliman who prides himself on organization it only makes sense he wouldn't fully wish to rely on the khan
The ones that were omitted seemed to have at least a “lesser adoration” of the Emporer.
I think perturabo was left out because of his personality. He was a tactical genius sure, but he was also paranoid, bitter, and prone to fits of rage. Not to mention the Iron Warriors have little regard for ally placement when bombarding/ using other tactics if it means they accomplish their goals.
sorry if i’ve just missed that in a video or any other commentary, but why horus was not considered at all?
Very interesting video and congratulation for reaching 100K!
I personally will never accept Angron as the "emphatic healer" I know it is cannon but I don't care. His legion, the Warhounds, were renown to be some of the bloodiest legion and it was BEFORE meeting their primarch and the butcher's nails. So just MY personal opinion, f*** the emphatic healer. Also let us be honest here, Angron is the only primarch the emperor had to save, all the others had at least conquer their planet of adoption.
As for Perturabo, others have mentioned it but decimating his legion when taking command is something that Guilliman didn't like but if someone observe and ask a few questions, you realize that Perturabo is a f***ing procrastinator. He has a lot of ideas, start a few of them, but don't finish most of them and the little brat has the audacity to blame others for not finishing anything.
As for Mortarion and Fulgrim I don't know enough about them so...
Weird RG isn’t included. Especially with Rowboat playing war games with Corax (losing to him even).
Huge disagree on RG tactics not being complimentary to other legions. It’s extremely complimentary, the other legion fighting exactly as it wants while the RG goes in behind enemy lines, fucks up enemy command and control and logistics, and also ready to strike when a weakness in the enemy line is discovered. Also specifically with the UM they’re both very flexible forces.
Corax himself mentions how many of the GREAT victories of his brothers were thanks to his legions work in the shadows.
@@MrFallenone exactly. Extremely complimentary
If i remember there was a second requirement to be in the Dauntless few, it was the brother he was sure would never turn on the Emperor.
I think this was one of the early horus heresy books.
@@11Survivor wouldn't that mean he was truly loyal and had earned his place in the dauntless few.
Or have I misunderstood what you were saying
@@jamesmattila-hine1133 yes
UA-cam glitched and sent this reply in the wrong comment
I always thought the few covered one if his weaknesses. Sangy and leman were better duelists and the others were prepared to make sacrifices he couldn't
Fits with the view that Daddy G is a master planner
When are we gonna get a Cawl week?!