How has London been defined and formed over time? You may be familiar with the Greater London area now and its boroughs, but how was London shaped and defined before that? We show you!
i live in carshalton (sutton), which is only really 10 miles from central london, so i do consider myself a Londoner as it only takes me 20 minutes to get into central London, although the feeling of being a Londoner is not as present as when you are living in a area closer to the central, but hey it still has its benefits (oyster card) !!!
@@newchannellookforlissaelle8507 Nope. Check any Carshalton address on the Royal Mail address and postcode finder website and you'll see that the word Surrey doesn't feature in the finished article.
@@newchannellookforlissaelle8507 carshalton is not techically in surrey, it is in sutton, in the london borough of sutton. you may be mistaking carshalton for when it used to be in surrey in 1965 and before, but unfortunately for you carshalton has not been in surrey since 1965! happy to educate :D
I alluded to these counties in the video "Are you in London?", and it's great to see they've made a video about it. I've never actually seen the border of Greater London drawn on the historical counties until now, very interesting.
In my opinion, there's a feeling about living in a London borough. If you go to Bexleyheath and then to Dartford (ie the head town of Dartford borough) everything feels so different, a difference that isn't so present if you went from Bexleyheath to Woolwich or Eltham. The same as if you go from Bromley or Beckenham to Swanley.
great video but you didn't mention the fact that London was not originally the main town of London as the original "capital" was Colchester (Brittan's oldest recorded town) However this would not really effect the video and I'm probably just saying this because I live in Colchester. :)
Small question: why do you consider it fortunate that London never adopted a grid system? Not that I'm for it, just wondering. Grid systems have some advantages. Thanks!
Grids are BORING. The most exciting parts of NYC are sections built before the grid system was codified, in all the boroughs. Also, grids contribute to the heat island effect.
Would’ve carved across pre-existing thoroughfares and alleyways, ruining the history. The grid system suits American cities that have very short histories. It doesn’t suit European cities with histories going back many centuries l
I want to make two corrections:- The roman settlement is not drawn to scale. It is as big as the City of London today. The roman Wall is the border of the City today.-Because of the wall, the city didn´t grew. As the City grew rich, some king founded a completely new town, called Westminster, to suck power and wealth away from the City. It expanded and soon surrounded the City totally.-(Somebody wrote this already) Southwark was a settlement almost as long as the roman city, but it didn´t count as "Londinium".All information is from a book called "London Through Time" by Richard Platt and the "The (secret) City of London"-videos made by CGP Grey.
Such a great video!! I love you guys, Londonist and especially cutie Geoff ^^ I wish I could visit London and study in there for a while. I will try my best to go to London and see you, Geoff!!
I was under the impression a second settlement formed a little bit further down the river first and it was that that grew and swallowed up the original
This is correct. As the City got too powerful a new town (called Westminster) was founded, which as it grew eventually totally surrounded the City of London. Soon, the people called the whole urban area London and the town of Westminster was merged with the City of London to create "London". But at this time, the City of London secured its special rights and privileges which it still holds to this date.
Fantastic video, as always! Why is it exactly that London has such winding, narrow streets? My history teacher told me years ago when we were learning about Paris and Berlin, but I forgot almost everything he said after I took my GCSE's
it's not just London, all ancient towns in the uk are like that. unless they've been majorly redeveloped, which few have, they often retain the original narrow streets which when the city was originally built were then fine for the level of carts coming and going. but London and indeed many uk cities have long had problems with congestion due to trying to fit too much traffic down small streets. not all streets in London are that small though, there are plenty of wide roads as well. but yeah, the simple answer is when a lot of the older parts were built there was no one saying 'it's going to get busy here one day, better leave huge roads to allow all the traffic through'.
It’s not just London or even the uk, most cities built before the car are like that i.e most of Europe. It’s just that most American cities were built after that
I went for job interview once and the interviewer asked me how I would get to work as she thought I lived outside London, she asked why my address was middlesex and not London. I had to explain to her that I live in London and middlesex was part of London, journey by tube will only take me 30 minutes (zone 4 to 1)The interviewer was from eastern europe and may be that's is why she didn't knew middlesex is in London. When writing my address i write greater London or London instead of middlesex, I only use middlesex for online forms. On a map I am closer to central London than areas with London postcode (if i walk for 3 minutes south and 5 minutes east from my street I will be in London postcode code area)
Ibra H I live in the london brough of redbridge and my postcode is IG (essex )instead of E (east london) I also have to explain that I live in london and not essex.
Some people prefer the old counties, which have a richer history. There's even a pressure group (the Association of British Counties) and a militant wing (CountyWatch). Up the ABC!
I have this problem because my current address has a DA postcode and sometimes reads as "Kent" even though I live in South East London, my third nearest station has the Elizabeth Line running to it at the end of the year. Mind you, if people ask where I come from I do say Lewisham (where I was born) to avoid any confusion as to my being a Londoner.
Of course there were settlements where London is today before Roman times. In 1108BC, Brutus, an exile Trojan after the falling of Troy, was said to have made home in the exact spot and named it New Troy, or Troia Nova. It was also known as Plowonida, in pre celtic times, meaning Wide flowing river. Also known as Lowoniidonjon, Trinovantum, Caer Lud, Kaer Lundain and the Welsh for Hill Fort, Clyndin. London was many things before the Romans arrived.
0:50 Southwark wasn't formed in the 14th century. It already existed as a separate settlement on the other side of the river from Londinium in Roman times.
Not accurate about Middlesex. Greater London did not wholely swallow up Middlesex, as the town of Staines and Sunbury were transferred to Surrey not Greater London.
@John Saunders Yes but public pressure in most of those areas kept them out of London. The government's original proposals had most of them in the new Greater London.
@John Saunders Main reason that even the then Transport Secretary and Epsom MP: Chris Grayling couldn't get Epsom Station into Zone 6 is one of the two train operators servicing the station, South Western Railway, wouldn't subsidize it. However Epsom Station is now part of Oyster through the Pay as you Go scheme, also used to get Redhill and Gatwick Airport into Oyster.
GEOFF I read somewhere that London is actually pre-Roman and we don't really know when people first settled here and where the name comes from, what's your thoughts on this?
@@lakaka9587 ummmm not they’re not still in Essex 😂 why do u wish u was from Essex so much? I literally see you on the video called” you are in Surrey kent Middlesex kent. Where he explains the merges. 😂
Please note that there have been further changes , 1965 the older boroughs of East and West Ham formed Newham , it wasn't a borough from the very start of the mapping of London like GM described.
It might interest you to know that Epsom and Ewell were originally included in the plan for Greater London, but were removed at a later date due to local opposition. The same is true of the towns of Walton-on-Thames and Weybridge.
Joel Nichols I didn't realise that. Looking on a map, the inclusion of Elmbridge would put the south-western border to towns outside it like Leatherhead (no change since it borders Malden Rushett, Kingston borough), Byfleet, Shepperton to name a few. It would really change up the Zones too.
Came here to find out when the various cities, towns and villages became part of Greater London. Instead, found out that they were always London. RIP City of Westminster. You were forgotten.
In this you guys say that Westminster abbey is called such because its name means "West church" because it was built on the Western edge of London. Could you or someone else in the comment section give me a source which confirms and/or expands on this?
At 1.01 you say there were plans to rebuild London in grid style layout (like american cities), fortunately it never happened. Why is grid style layout bad? what would have happened if London was rebuilt in grid style layout?
+xirfan yeah. if i want to see that i can just look at my computers circuit board. European cities allow you to get lost in them, to turn a corner and discover a little place hidden away down a back street you never knew was there. it all feels so organic and relaxing to me. then again i generally dislike cities full stop so perhaps my preference is tipped towards villages anyway and they are certainly surrounded by nature.
+xirfan 1)Europe is highly differentiated, just like the usa but more so because it's different countries, so that picture represents only a small part of it. 2) I'm not talking about cities im talking about small settlements. like lewes, a medieval town saintsremovals.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/removals-lewis.png
Anybody wishing to visit London for the first time should note that it no longer exists, except as a geographical reference. What can be found instead is a hybrid, which p.c. educated experts call a "cosmopolitan city".
@John Saunders And if Putney still had Surrey in it's address I would. In the same way I see Bromley as Kent. Snobbery? Maybe I don't argue when it comes to Kingston I can be a snob.
@John Saunders Kingston Surrey KT1 1AA as an example. Raynes Park SW20... Wimbledon SW19. Brixton was formerly Surrey SW2... When Kingston becomes SW21, your arguement will be sound buy for now KT and Surrey are indeed part of the address.
These videos are always so fascinating!
it's was my friends birthday yesterday.
i live in carshalton (sutton), which is only really 10 miles from central london, so i do consider myself a Londoner as it only takes me 20 minutes to get into central London, although the feeling of being a Londoner is not as present as when you are living in a area closer to the central, but hey it still has its benefits (oyster card) !!!
If you live in Sutton you are a Londoner. LONDON Borough of Sutton innit.
tom Isn't Carshalton in Surrey?
Tomi Janet it is technically Surrey, everyone that lives in Carshalton will have Surrey in their address, not London
@@newchannellookforlissaelle8507
Nope. Check any Carshalton address on the Royal Mail address and postcode finder website and you'll see that the word Surrey doesn't feature in the finished article.
@@newchannellookforlissaelle8507 carshalton is not techically in surrey, it is in sutton, in the london borough of sutton. you may be mistaking carshalton for when it used to be in surrey in 1965 and before, but unfortunately for you carshalton has not been in surrey since 1965! happy to educate :D
I alluded to these counties in the video "Are you in London?", and it's great to see they've made a video about it. I've never actually seen the border of Greater London drawn on the historical counties until now, very interesting.
as always, very interesting. thanks for posting.
In my opinion, there's a feeling about living in a London borough. If you go to Bexleyheath and then to Dartford (ie the head town of Dartford borough) everything feels so different, a difference that isn't so present if you went from Bexleyheath to Woolwich or Eltham. The same as if you go from Bromley or Beckenham to Swanley.
Great video and very interesting! Fascinating stuff.
Just did a research on this only a week ago, great video!
I love you guys. I'm never going to see London...but you're stuff is cool as hell. Love the History. Please keep it coming.
Seattle, WA. Not a fan of flying.
One day we'll meet.
great video but you didn't mention the fact that London was not originally the main town of London as the original "capital" was Colchester (Brittan's oldest recorded town) However this would not really effect the video and I'm probably just saying this because I live in Colchester. :)
all of these roman capitals is confusing
no, Winchester was the capital in Anglo-Saxon times
I thought Winchester was the former capital of England
No Winchester is the pub in Shawn of the dead.
Yeh I thought it was Winchester too lol
Small question: why do you consider it fortunate that London never adopted a grid system? Not that I'm for it, just wondering. Grid systems have some advantages. Thanks!
If London was a grid, it would be boring like an american city.
Grids are BORING. The most exciting parts of NYC are sections built before the grid system was codified, in all the boroughs. Also, grids contribute to the heat island effect.
Would’ve carved across pre-existing thoroughfares and alleyways, ruining the history. The grid system suits American cities that have very short histories. It doesn’t suit European cities with histories going back many centuries l
Because sometimes we gotta move diagonally
Thank you ❤ I just found out about London ❤❤
I want to make two corrections:- The roman settlement is not drawn to scale. It is as big as the City of London today. The roman Wall is the border of the City today.-Because of the wall, the city didn´t grew. As the City grew rich, some king founded a completely new town, called Westminster, to suck power and wealth away from the City. It expanded and soon surrounded the City totally.-(Somebody wrote this already) Southwark was a settlement almost as long as the roman city, but it didn´t count as "Londinium".All information is from a book called "London Through Time" by Richard Platt and the "The (secret) City of London"-videos made by CGP Grey.
I don´t know why the text is crossed out, it should not be that way...
@@londonundergroundfan1563 -Because you unintentionally started and ended that particular paragraph with dashes, like this-
The apostrophes in the captions top right bothered me greatly:-) Garggghhhh!
Exactly the video I've been looking for for years
Such a great video!! I love you guys, Londonist and especially cutie Geoff ^^ I wish I could visit London and study in there for a while. I will try my best to go to London and see you, Geoff!!
Thanks Quynh! We'll let Geoff know next time we see him!
+Londonist Ltd lolol
Thanks! Please let him know that he has a fan hehe!
N.B. "Lundecwic" in the captions at 0' 25" should be Lundenwic.
Yup! typo on our part, well spotted!
I was under the impression a second settlement formed a little bit further down the river first and it was that that grew and swallowed up the original
This is correct. As the City got too powerful a new town (called Westminster) was founded, which as it grew eventually totally surrounded the City of London. Soon, the people called the whole urban area London and the town of Westminster was merged with the City of London to create "London". But at this time, the City of London secured its special rights and privileges which it still holds to this date.
Fantastic video, as always! Why is it exactly that London has such winding, narrow streets? My history teacher told me years ago when we were learning about Paris and Berlin, but I forgot almost everything he said after I took my GCSE's
it's not just London, all ancient towns in the uk are like that. unless they've been majorly redeveloped, which few have, they often retain the original narrow streets which when the city was originally built were then fine for the level of carts coming and going. but London and indeed many uk cities have long had problems with congestion due to trying to fit too much traffic down small streets. not all streets in London are that small though, there are plenty of wide roads as well.
but yeah, the simple answer is when a lot of the older parts were built there was no one saying 'it's going to get busy here one day, better leave huge roads to allow all the traffic through'.
London roads are nothing compared to places like Cambridge, York and Norwich
Pedestrianisation is the answer!
It’s not just London or even the uk, most cities built before the car are like that i.e most of Europe. It’s just that most American cities were built after that
@@ala0284 I feel like you can see the difference quite well even in America with major old cities in New England vs the rest of America.
I've always wanted to live in London since I first visited in 2009. Now Londonist is making me CRAVE for a home there!
Juan Sánchez Don't.
DaveyGames Why?
Juan Sánchez Well some aspects of the city may be good but generally, it's not great.
I suppose so, yeah. But I'd have that problem anywhere I lived so at least I prefer to live in a place I like
But with brexit and all the racism it seems difficult...
I wish that was about ten minutes longer.
I went for job interview once and the interviewer asked me how I would get to work as she thought I lived outside London, she asked why my address was middlesex and not London. I had to explain to her that I live in London and middlesex was part of London, journey by tube will only take me 30 minutes (zone 4 to 1)The interviewer was from eastern europe and may be that's is why she didn't knew middlesex is in London. When writing my address i write greater London or London instead of middlesex, I only use middlesex for online forms. On a map I am closer to central London than areas with London postcode (if i walk for 3 minutes south and 5 minutes east from my street I will be in London postcode code area)
Middlesex was abolished in 1965.
Treblinka 1 : The Penal Camp
Why? There's no need.
Ibra H I live in the london brough of redbridge and my postcode is IG (essex )instead of E (east london)
I also have to explain that I live in london and not essex.
Some people prefer the old counties, which have a richer history. There's even a pressure group (the Association of British Counties) and a militant wing (CountyWatch).
Up the ABC!
I have this problem because my current address has a DA postcode and sometimes reads as "Kent" even though I live in South East London, my third nearest station has the Elizabeth Line running to it at the end of the year. Mind you, if people ask where I come from I do say Lewisham (where I was born) to avoid any confusion as to my being a Londoner.
If only Greater London would change its ceremonial county name to Middlesex to recognize its past.
@Deesar Thafaks May 16th is Middlesex Day.
0:04 Who saw KFC instead of K&C?
No one
So it was just my eyes playing up on me, because I defintely saw KFC
me
Same here :)
yep
This is Geoff’s voice!
Of course there were settlements where London is today before Roman times. In 1108BC, Brutus, an exile Trojan after the falling of Troy, was said to have made home in the exact spot and named it New Troy, or Troia Nova. It was also known as Plowonida, in pre celtic times, meaning Wide flowing river. Also known as Lowoniidonjon, Trinovantum, Caer Lud, Kaer Lundain and the Welsh for Hill Fort, Clyndin.
London was many things before the Romans arrived.
why did you say it was fortunate that london wasnt rebuilt grid style? surely it would have made future proofing the city easier?
0:50 Southwark wasn't formed in the 14th century. It already existed as a separate settlement on the other side of the river from Londinium in Roman times.
Not accurate about Middlesex. Greater London did not wholely swallow up Middlesex, as the town of Staines and Sunbury were transferred to Surrey not Greater London.
He means the MAJORITY of Middlesex was swallowed up by Greater London- which is true.
And don't forget Potters Bar
pedant
@John Saunders Yes but public pressure in most of those areas kept them out of London. The government's original proposals had most of them in the new Greater London.
@John Saunders Main reason that even the then Transport Secretary and Epsom MP: Chris Grayling couldn't get Epsom Station into Zone 6 is one of the two train operators servicing the station, South Western Railway, wouldn't subsidize it. However Epsom Station is now part of Oyster through the Pay as you Go scheme, also used to get Redhill and Gatwick Airport into Oyster.
Bye bye Middlesex. It was nice knowing you.
RIP Middlesex
GEOFF I read somewhere that London is actually pre-Roman and we don't really know when people first settled here and where the name comes from, what's your thoughts on this?
so even stratford and barking was essex?
Mario J. Pav
Yep, they became part of London the same time Romford and Ilford did, 1965.
They still are in essex
Read This the fucking are
Stratford is Essex? Are you for real mate, it’s FAR closer to central London than to the Essex border!
@@lakaka9587 ummmm not they’re not still in Essex 😂 why do u wish u was from Essex so much? I literally see you on the video called” you are in Surrey kent Middlesex kent. Where he explains the merges. 😂
Please note that there have been further changes , 1965 the older boroughs of East and West Ham formed Newham , it wasn't a borough from the very start of the mapping of London like GM described.
I think Jay Foreman's video on this matter will help explain further.
Grrrr One day we will see Epsom and Ewell on that map
i know so annoying
or at least in Zone 6
It might interest you to know that Epsom and Ewell were originally included in the plan for Greater London, but were removed at a later date due to local opposition. The same is true of the towns of Walton-on-Thames and Weybridge.
Joel Nichols I didn't realise that. Looking on a map, the inclusion of Elmbridge would put the south-western border to towns outside it like Leatherhead (no change since it borders Malden Rushett, Kingston borough), Byfleet, Shepperton to name a few. It would really change up the Zones too.
Oh definitely. The boundaries as they were originally proposed actually lined up pretty closely with where the M25 now is.
The slab of concrete grows.
but no longer, thanks to the green belt. ua-cam.com/video/jjuD288JlCs/v-deo.html
You Should Do One About Greater Manchester
RIP Middlesex :(
By many people I think, the old county of london been would be classed as the real london
Came here to find out when the various cities, towns and villages became part of Greater London. Instead, found out that they were always London. RIP City of Westminster. You were forgotten.
I wonder why other londonist employees are still not making videos to this channel
+Hari Holmes I know right :-)
What was the county town of Middlesex?
Some people may consider London as that.
In this you guys say that Westminster abbey is called such because its name means "West church" because it was built on the Western edge of London. Could you or someone else in the comment section give me a source which confirms and/or expands on this?
I’m in Harrow👌
Seems odd not to mention Borough, which existed long before Southwark, and has given its name to districts all over the place.
@John Saunders I'm sure I knew what I meant when I wrote it, but that was a long time ago.
Is that where Middlesex University in Hendon gets its name from? As it used to be in Middlesex.
pkizdabest Middlesex still lives
Jake Deane
No it don't.
A Person yes it does....how would u like it if your county was destroyed?
Jake Deane
How does it still exist?
A Person it's still referenced
At 1.01 you say there were plans to rebuild London in grid style layout (like american cities), fortunately it never happened. Why is grid style layout bad? what would have happened if London was rebuilt in grid style layout?
You'd have lost all the history of the current streets which date back hundreds of years.
Be my history teacher
should we celebrate in 2043 for 2000 years standing?
So, technically, Birmingham is the biggest city in the UK?
@John Saunders Therefore Birmingham as a unitary authority is the biggest city in the UK.
Middlesex still lives! Sforza Middlesexia !
Nope. It was abolished in 1965.
A Person no, if you look closely, a part by Edgware still is Middlesex. Though It’s fairly small.
Small part of Middlesex still exist? 🤔
in Herts.
Videos
So Middlesex technically doesn't exist no more.
it literally doesnt exist
So, even London was founded by us 2000 years ago ?? The real question is: what haven’t we founded (?).... 😉
Unfortunately on the grid pattern I think.
only from a practical point of view. grids are far less interesting than organic layouts.
Really..? imgur.com/a/hOWni
+xirfan yeah. if i want to see that i can just look at my computers circuit board.
European cities allow you to get lost in them, to turn a corner and discover a little place hidden away down a back street you never knew was there. it all feels so organic and relaxing to me. then again i generally dislike cities full stop so perhaps my preference is tipped towards villages anyway and they are certainly surrounded by nature.
Europe media.timeout.com/images/100592143/image.jpg
+xirfan 1)Europe is highly differentiated, just like the usa but more so because it's different countries, so that picture represents only a small part of it.
2) I'm not talking about cities im talking about small settlements. like lewes, a medieval town saintsremovals.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/removals-lewis.png
Never new there’s a district devoted to kfc
Fitzrovia in the 1700s get real!
So after Brexit instead of Londinium we will have and even larger area called LonBremandinium?
Anybody wishing to visit London for the first time should note that it no longer exists, except as a geographical reference. What can be found instead is a hybrid, which p.c. educated experts call a "cosmopolitan city".
Not so pogchamp😔
Get Bromley and bexley out of London and back into the great Kent
And as a Kingstonian even now I prclaim it is not London but Surrey. It is KT not SW21. Raynes Park as SW20 is the edge of London in my mind.
Not :) And as I was born before the forming of the Greater London Council, I can at least hold onto that belief.
Does Surrey county council pay council tax to Kingston for its offices? Just wondering.
@John Saunders And if Putney still had Surrey in it's address I would. In the same way I see Bromley as Kent. Snobbery? Maybe I don't argue when it comes to Kingston I can be a snob.
@John Saunders Kingston Surrey KT1 1AA as an example. Raynes Park SW20... Wimbledon SW19. Brixton was formerly Surrey SW2... When Kingston becomes SW21, your arguement will be sound buy for now KT and Surrey are indeed part of the address.
@@garywoolton1875Surrey is not part of the address because a correctly written address doesn't contain a county.
Not sure how London was created. How Londonistan is / will be created will however stay better documented in the annals of British History.
and next a vid on how london was lost as part of uk ,all it took was a few crooked MP,S