Hot take maybe but this story didn’t need a rat at all and Micah being made into an obvious scapegoat detracts from Dutch’s characterization in RDR1 where John is pretty clear the gang’s demise was on Dutch losing it and not any outside influences
I agree with this statement. I personally think Micah was a rat, but I don't think a rat was necessarily the cause of the downfall. He just sped up the inevitable. I think the gang would have fallen either way, but Micah definitely helped.
@@Sketchy_2 no I mean the story would be better had he been right. Micah being the rat felt like a cop out to the theme of both games that the west was tamed and civilization was catching up to the straglers
idk why people give Dan Houser so much credit. literally every Rockstar game that he wrote has some sort of big betrayal in them that half of the time doesn't make sense. you're right, there didn't need to be a rat at all
The 1st speech Dutch gave soon after reaching shelter during the blizzard, I knew he was sketchy with the "stay with me" part manipulative talk coming from someone guilty of something
Man I love your videos because of 2 reasons: 1. Red Dead Redemption 2. Really long so I can do some chores or other work and just listen to a nice subject
Whether Michah was a rat or not he was without a doubt a snake who wouldve hunted down the rest of the Vanderlin gang to save his own skin I think the agents were there to give Micah the same task they gave to John but with his own life as the reward
Honestly I don't know... Agents being there makes me think a couple of things ; maybe someone was supposed to turn in someone, or maybe they just caught the wind of Dutch right away when he teamed up with Micah? I'm not even sure why Ditch was there and how Micah made his own gang and was still going out for his usual shenanigans if he's supposed to be the rat... It's all confusing kinda
Pretty sure what made Dutch betray Arthur was that Arthur began to slip away from Dutch as Dutch became less and less reliable and that Micah kept his "loyalty" and kept speaking high about Dutch infront of Dutch. It was never about who is more likeable to Dutch but rather about their "loyalty"
I don't think Dutch shooting Micah had anything to do with Arthur, or at least very little. When John asks Dutch's reason for being there, the simple "Same as you, I guess'" tells the audience he was always planning to kill Micah, not actually conjoin their gangs, but considering who Dutch is at this point, I feel it was more about eliminating an obvious threat of a man who built up his own gang in under a decade than getting vengeance on him for something not technically done against Dutch, who was leading a hunting party against John and Arthur in the final moments of Beaver Hollow. If he was ever intent on aligning with Micah, at the very least those plans were shot down the moment Micah had no more gang to align with, aka when John, Sadie, and Charles showed up. Personally, I think Dutch always planned to kill Micah, only he'd probably though something out years in advance, and when our gang showed up, he chose to act swiftly rather than stupidly. He knew neither John, Sadie, or Charles actually held ill will or contempt towards him, even if they abandoned their blind faith. They held no threat to his power, and Micah did. So he saw to it that threat never gained traction. Edit: just to add a little bit more theory, I stopped believing the whole "Micah is a rat" thing by my third playthrough of the game. I just don't think it'd be possible for anyone of Micah's - stature, let's say - to even be capable of manipulating Dutch. Dutch is a fully-grown adult male narcissist. No one can convince him of something he doesn't already want to believe.
This is copy and pasted from a discussion I had with another user here’s how I view Dutch. Dutch is the best character of red dead in my opinion and people saying he was this narcissistic psychopath since the start is just simply not true there are a lot of factors to whey he turned darker and darker. First off Dutch was always bad as he was a criminal since he was 15 but always had a moral code this videogame slowly shows us how this moral code gets eventually deteriorated. The first thing that makes Dutch go darker is the pressure he has on himself people are starting to doubt him which has never happened in the gangs history. So he becomes desperate to get a major victory to win back the trust some of the gang members have lost so he starts trying to win money to escape to paradise but the failures that transpire hoseas, Sean’s, and Lenny’s death he thinks were all practically his fault so he tries everything he can for that never to happen again and this includes shattering his code. This is first shown in Guarma when he kills the old woman because she was in his way this shows us that his code of “no unnecessary killing” is now gone but he did this to save Javier faster meaning that his code of “leave no one behind” is still In tact. In my personal opinion I think that Dutch just wanted to go to a country in peace but go back to the USA with a new gang he doesn’t care about and continue fighting for a anarchistic paradise and he would’ve continued on fighting until that worldview was implanted on the USA the bad thing Is Dutch doesn’t even know how to do this But back to why Dutch became more evil as time passed by now we’re on chapter 6 now Dutch shattering his entire code in this chapter was in my opinion MOSTLY because of Micah and nobody else, Micah preyed on Dutch’s trust issues about John and straight up told him that he was a traitor to Dutch, Micah also preyed on Dutch wanting survival for his gang telling him that doing impulsive, vengeful, and destructive acts is the only way for survival, Micah does all of this because it benefits him as he wants to be the most powerful member and the one who makes the most money he wants Dutch to be completely trust him so he needs to get rid of people like John and Arthur to get that position, And Micah manipulated Dutch so well that he believed him he ditched his entire code for survival in paradise he leaves Abigail behind to save his own skin as saving Abigail would be too risky again Micah manipulated him into doing this decision. But he actually saw Micah for who he was and avenged Arthur if it was just to kill Micah because he betrayed hi he would have taken the money. So this is how I view Dutch sorry for the long comment
I think red dead 2 is perfect for explaining the sad cycle of being a gangster risking your life or freedom for money losing your honor as a person just to survive losing the people you loved or respected running from the law and any average person not liking or trusting you this game shows you the flaws of being a criminal such as a gangster.
No one talks about this, but I think Dutch suffered from syphilis we also see his woman is a little nuts as well. There are people who can live with syphilis, but one thing is very true about it and that’s madness follows.
I think that Dutch wanted to subtly silence Arthur who still had doubts about his plans, so he decided to move the gang to a cool, dark and quite humid place because he knew that Arthur's condition would only worsen. Even if he didn't know what kind of disease it was, everyone could still deduce that probably any disease in such conditions would only progress
While riding anywhere on the trail, you can often come upon the same blind man again and again, and I hold a theory that he is the Strange Man for Arthur, but on one encounter he says something along the lines of "Beware of your father, for he is seduced by the one with the forked tongue" (Dutch being led astray by Micah) Micah told Dutch all these lies of fortune and success, while the rest of the gang (excluding Bill, Karen, Javier) tried to be realistic.
Followed in age ONLY by Arthur? Pretty sure everyone else has ages too. Ms Grimshaw definitely older than Arthur btw I feel like Dutch and Cohlm are the same type of person while Dutch didn't wanna believe he was like that so he played like he was different. They used to be friends... they don't hate each other cause they're different... they hate each other cause they're the same. Both murdered someone close to the other both leave their gang members to take the fall... they both just wanna be famous leaders
Dude, Dutch Van Der Linde is clear the main villain of Red Dead 2. Not all the blame goes to Micah, when Dutch has caused more harm and deaths as well.
My take is that the main character and protagonist is “the taming of the west” and instead of an objective view of good and bad; we take a first person emotional perspective of people from the old life. I think the effect is the brainwashing and these people don’t see Dutch or the way of the outlaw as evil; they see it as family. But Dutch as a leader I think always was rotten; but he did care for John and Arthur in a sociopathic narcissistic way
There’s a way Dutch could have indirectly killed Cornwall while keeping both the Pinkerton’s and Possibly even the Army Distracted. and not be directly blamed for it which also has Historical precedence. Dutch could have Bribed the Miners to Riot and have one of his men Arthur or John smuggle weapons into the Town for the Rioting Miners who have good reason to want Cornwall Dead. Resulting in the Town of annesburg becoming a War Zone. Resulting in the Deaths of multiple Miners and Pinkerton agents and with enough weapons and Funding the Gang would at most maybe need Arthur or John to take the Role of Sharpshooters and help the miners Clear a Path to get to Cornwall and Hang him for his Greed and mistreatment of his employees. This would also fit into Dutch’s Philosophy and it would be harder for the Pinkerton’s to Pin the Crime on the Gang. Like the Homestead Riots in the 1800s the Army would be called in to Rescue any surviving Pinkerton Agents and restore order to the Town. This would of course not stop the Government from Going after the Gang but would buy Dutch a little bit of Time. it would be Cool if RDR 2 had more RPG elements as this could have been an Alternative to using the Wapiti to Distract the Army and possibly save Eagle Flies life. But would still not technically be a Good Choice resulting in the Deaths of innocent Civilians who are being paid poorly and resulting in the mine being shut down much earlier. But it would have been a nice alternative ending. and Just like the Original ending the Pinkerton’s would eventually figure out Dutch’s involvement in Funding the Riot and the Deaths of several miners and Pinkerton Agents and the Pinkerton’s would have Justification to Hunt down the Gang. Although this could take months for the necessary investigations and with the Pinkerton’s decimated and hated by the Public. Couldn’t take as long as a Year to get Permission from higher up to go after the Gang at which Point Arthur would have already Died from Tuberculosis although things like this would have slowed the Games Development and required altering the Game it would have been an interesting alternative.
Hot take maybe but this story didn’t need a rat at all and Micah being made into an obvious scapegoat detracts from Dutch’s characterization in RDR1 where John is pretty clear the gang’s demise was on Dutch losing it and not any outside influences
well true but the whole point is micah getting in dutchs head and really kicking off his insanity and making it way worse, u def right tho
I agree with this statement. I personally think Micah was a rat, but I don't think a rat was necessarily the cause of the downfall. He just sped up the inevitable. I think the gang would have fallen either way, but Micah definitely helped.
This isn't a hot take, arthur straights up says this in chapter 6.
@@Sketchy_2 no I mean the story would be better had he been right. Micah being the rat felt like a cop out to the theme of both games that the west was tamed and civilization was catching up to the straglers
idk why people give Dan Houser so much credit. literally every Rockstar game that he wrote has some sort of big betrayal in them that half of the time doesn't make sense. you're right, there didn't need to be a rat at all
The 1st speech Dutch gave soon after reaching shelter during the blizzard, I knew he was sketchy with the "stay with me" part manipulative talk coming from someone guilty of something
i'm a college student and for some reason, watching/listening to videos like these has been the sole reason I'm actually completing any work lmao
Your content is unreal bro, no filler or bad humour just purely informative, great analysis
Thank you. That’s extremely kind of you to say
I always love when I’m listening to someone and they speak clearly and concise. I listen to videos like this all day.
A comment i made on Reddit somewhat recently on my thoughts when it comes to Dutch.
Dutch wanted more money and chaos, and his ego didn't let him stop
Man I love your videos because of 2 reasons:
1. Red Dead Redemption
2. Really long so I can do some chores or other work and just listen to a nice subject
I go to sleep to them haha
Same. Truck driving, I need long videos
Whether Michah was a rat or not he was without a doubt a snake who wouldve hunted down the rest of the Vanderlin gang to save his own skin
I think the agents were there to give Micah the same task they gave to John but with his own life as the reward
Honestly I don't know... Agents being there makes me think a couple of things ; maybe someone was supposed to turn in someone, or maybe they just caught the wind of Dutch right away when he teamed up with Micah? I'm not even sure why Ditch was there and how Micah made his own gang and was still going out for his usual shenanigans if he's supposed to be the rat... It's all confusing kinda
Pretty sure what made Dutch betray Arthur was that Arthur began to slip away from Dutch as Dutch became less and less reliable and that Micah kept his "loyalty" and kept speaking high about Dutch infront of Dutch. It was never about who is more likeable to Dutch but rather about their "loyalty"
You have a great voice and your script is intelligent and increasing all the time. I don't even like video games. But I loved this game.
Hey, thank you. That's incredibly flattering to hear
I ALREADY KNOW THIS A W VID
Thanks, but its really more a chill video. Got some new long ones on the way though👀!
I love listening to these at work, I want more
I can't believe you don't have nore views. I really like your videos man.
The long form videos are it , I know they're harder and long to make but longer is always better
💀
I don't think Dutch shooting Micah had anything to do with Arthur, or at least very little. When John asks Dutch's reason for being there, the simple "Same as you, I guess'" tells the audience he was always planning to kill Micah, not actually conjoin their gangs, but considering who Dutch is at this point, I feel it was more about eliminating an obvious threat of a man who built up his own gang in under a decade than getting vengeance on him for something not technically done against Dutch, who was leading a hunting party against John and Arthur in the final moments of Beaver Hollow. If he was ever intent on aligning with Micah, at the very least those plans were shot down the moment Micah had no more gang to align with, aka when John, Sadie, and Charles showed up. Personally, I think Dutch always planned to kill Micah, only he'd probably though something out years in advance, and when our gang showed up, he chose to act swiftly rather than stupidly. He knew neither John, Sadie, or Charles actually held ill will or contempt towards him, even if they abandoned their blind faith. They held no threat to his power, and Micah did. So he saw to it that threat never gained traction.
Edit: just to add a little bit more theory, I stopped believing the whole "Micah is a rat" thing by my third playthrough of the game. I just don't think it'd be possible for anyone of Micah's - stature, let's say - to even be capable of manipulating Dutch. Dutch is a fully-grown adult male narcissist. No one can convince him of something he doesn't already want to believe.
This is copy and pasted from a discussion I had with another user here’s how I view Dutch.
Dutch is the best character of red dead in my opinion and people saying he was this narcissistic psychopath since the start is just simply not true there are a lot of factors to whey he turned darker and darker.
First off Dutch was always bad as he was a criminal since he was 15 but always had a moral code this videogame slowly shows us how this moral code gets eventually deteriorated. The first thing that makes Dutch go darker is the pressure he has on himself people are starting to doubt him which has never happened in the gangs history.
So he becomes desperate to get a major victory to win back the trust some of the gang members have lost so he starts trying to win money to escape to paradise but the failures that transpire hoseas, Sean’s, and Lenny’s death he thinks were all practically his fault so he tries everything he can for that never to happen again and this includes shattering his code.
This is first shown in Guarma when he kills the old woman because she was in his way this shows us that his code of “no unnecessary killing” is now gone but he did this to save Javier faster meaning that his code of “leave no one behind” is still In tact. In my personal opinion I think that Dutch just wanted to go to a country in peace but go back to the USA with a new gang he doesn’t care about and continue fighting for a anarchistic paradise and he would’ve continued on fighting until that worldview was implanted on the USA the bad thing Is Dutch doesn’t even know how to do this
But back to why Dutch became more evil as time passed by now we’re on chapter 6 now Dutch shattering his entire code in this chapter was in my opinion MOSTLY because of Micah and nobody else, Micah preyed on Dutch’s trust issues about John and straight up told him that he was a traitor to Dutch, Micah also preyed on Dutch wanting survival for his gang telling him that doing impulsive, vengeful, and destructive acts is the only way for survival, Micah does all of this because it benefits him as he wants to be the most powerful member and the one who makes the most money he wants Dutch to be completely trust him so he needs to get rid of people like John and Arthur to get that position, And Micah manipulated Dutch so well that he believed him he ditched his entire code for survival in paradise he leaves Abigail behind to save his own skin as saving Abigail would be too risky again Micah manipulated him into doing this decision.
But he actually saw Micah for who he was and avenged Arthur if it was just to kill Micah because he betrayed hi he would have taken the money. So this is how I view Dutch sorry for the long comment
Awesome thank you! Will play this as i make dinner
MY BOY IVE GOT A PLAN NEED THE MONEY NEED THE TIME NEED THE LOYALYT
I think red dead 2 is perfect for explaining the sad cycle of being a gangster risking your life or freedom for money losing your honor as a person just to survive losing the people you loved or respected running from the law and any average person not liking or trusting you this game shows you the flaws of being a criminal such as a gangster.
Great Work man
No one talks about this, but I think Dutch suffered from syphilis we also see his woman is a little nuts as well. There are people who can live with syphilis, but one thing is very true about it and that’s madness follows.
I'm addicted to rdr2 😅❤
I think that Dutch wanted to subtly silence Arthur who still had doubts about his plans, so he decided to move the gang to a cool, dark and quite humid place because he knew that Arthur's condition would only worsen. Even if he didn't know what kind of disease it was, everyone could still deduce that probably any disease in such conditions would only progress
Love these vids
What if Cornwall accepted dutch's deal
While riding anywhere on the trail, you can often come upon the same blind man again and again, and I hold a theory that he is the Strange Man for Arthur, but on one encounter he says something along the lines of "Beware of your father, for he is seduced by the one with the forked tongue" (Dutch being led astray by Micah)
Micah told Dutch all these lies of fortune and success, while the rest of the gang (excluding Bill, Karen, Javier) tried to be realistic.
Followed in age ONLY by Arthur? Pretty sure everyone else has ages too. Ms Grimshaw definitely older than Arthur btw
I feel like Dutch and Cohlm are the same type of person while Dutch didn't wanna believe he was like that so he played like he was different. They used to be friends... they don't hate each other cause they're different... they hate each other cause they're the same. Both murdered someone close to the other both leave their gang members to take the fall... they both just wanna be famous leaders
Micah telling John to join them at the end was JARRING. I guess it's just him being a rat because it's obvious he and Dutch didn't want him
Howdy, how about a video about Evelyn Miller’s studyings/writings, their bases and influences on Dutch and etc.?
Beaver hollow is better terrain than the swamps. Swamps would be the met humid
Dude, Dutch Van Der Linde is clear the main villain of Red Dead 2. Not all the blame goes to Micah, when Dutch has caused more harm and deaths as well.
My take is that the main character and protagonist is “the taming of the west” and instead of an objective view of good and bad; we take a first person emotional perspective of people from the old life. I think the effect is the brainwashing and these people don’t see Dutch or the way of the outlaw as evil; they see it as family. But Dutch as a leader I think always was rotten; but he did care for John and Arthur in a sociopathic narcissistic way
Micah did not care about the gang he cared about dutch
we early for this one
I think Micah was and wasn’t a rat. I think he only sped up the inevitable for the gang
I honestly think Bronte had it coming. Same with Cornwall and Colm
All 3 were scumbags.
There’s a way Dutch could have indirectly killed Cornwall while keeping both the Pinkerton’s and Possibly even the Army Distracted. and not be directly blamed for it which also has Historical precedence. Dutch could have Bribed the Miners to Riot and have one of his men Arthur or John smuggle weapons into the Town for the Rioting Miners who have good reason to want Cornwall Dead. Resulting in the Town of annesburg becoming a War Zone. Resulting in the Deaths of multiple Miners and Pinkerton agents and with enough weapons and Funding the Gang would at most maybe need Arthur or John to take the Role of Sharpshooters and help the miners Clear a Path to get to Cornwall and Hang him for his Greed and mistreatment of his employees. This would also fit into Dutch’s Philosophy and it would be harder for the Pinkerton’s to Pin the Crime on the Gang. Like the Homestead Riots in the 1800s the Army would be called in to Rescue any surviving Pinkerton Agents and restore order to the Town. This would of course not stop the Government from Going after the Gang but would buy Dutch a little bit of Time. it would be Cool if RDR 2 had more RPG elements as this could have been an Alternative to using the Wapiti to Distract the Army and possibly save Eagle Flies life. But would still not technically be a Good Choice resulting in the Deaths of innocent Civilians who are being paid poorly and resulting in the mine being shut down much earlier. But it would have been a nice alternative ending. and Just like the Original ending the Pinkerton’s would eventually figure out Dutch’s involvement in Funding the Riot and the Deaths of several miners and Pinkerton Agents and the Pinkerton’s would have Justification to Hunt down the Gang. Although this could take months for the necessary investigations and with the Pinkerton’s decimated and hated by the Public. Couldn’t take as long as a Year to get Permission from higher up to go after the Gang at which Point Arthur would have already Died from Tuberculosis although things like this would have slowed the Games Development and required altering the Game it would have been an interesting alternative.
Thanks,
What the hell is all this
You might awell remove the “I don’t often make these part cuz you kinda do lol
Its only 6. Lol but fair enough 😂
@@CynicGTA just you wait it’ll be a series soon lol
.
Dutch is indeed a Antagonist