Adam mate, this is a very well put together documentary. Your production value and information conveyed is top notch. Congratulations on all your work and that of everyone who contributed. Keep up the excellent work. I look forward to watching more of your content.
Well, i wouldnt say there was no reason. The pass was supposed to be held. That was the Order and behind that Order was sense. That combined with the strict Law of "Courage in Battle" regarding Sparta, you get a famous last Stand. And it was no "Token-force" either, 300 Spartans were quite a lot of Soldiers when taking into regard, that Sparta (at its peak)only had about 5-8000 fully trained and equiped Spartans. Combine that with the other 700 lite armored Troops Sparta send, and you get quite a force. The defeat was also nothing the Spartans had any controll over. Their Tactic worked, the pass held up! The enemy surrounding was what crashed the plan, but no Leader could make any more out of the situation in that position. Ill gladly here back from you and am open for further conversation about this Topic. Best regards:)
No reason??? 1) Spartans were fighting to WIN at first. They just got betrayed and were killed because of that. They were pretty aware of their fighting force that could stand against the enemy. 2) They may died but inflicted so much damage to that "undefeated" enemy that made an example to the rest of the Greeks to stand and fight and WIN. 3) Persians were so damaged by that small fighting farce that they lost every courage to continue the fight.
your content is actually so great! Makes work much more bearble. I hope this channel blows right up. Extra points for getting the ditch master himself on
I really am enjoying this so far. Your production and editing are very good. I would like to push back on one of the arguments made by the Professor if you don't mind, that being the argument that sending 1,000 as a sacrifice to the gods is too much (and therefore not small enough to make sense with the Oracle) and that the reason was probably mostly just tactical. This view downplays too much in my opinion how superstitious and religious the ancient Greeks were. Their oracles were taken very seriously. Academia, I believe, tends to retroactively look at the past, especially pre-Christianity, through too much of a secular view. These people really believed in the gods and military and political policy regularly was influenced by their faith. Who is to say 1,000 is not a few from the Spartan point of view? He is presupposing it is too much based on a arbitrary standard in my opinion. However, if the Spartans truly believed this oracle, they would also likely worry about not sending enough to appease the gods. And again, a tenth of their army may have seemed small to them. His argument is one I never heard before, but one I do not find conclusive.
@@hermonymusofsparta thank you very much! It is certainly an interesting topic, and i don't believe Roel is necessarily denying either option, just stating what he believes is most likely. Appreciate your kind words
First of all thank you for the commitment of your time and energy. Im fully aware that the ridiculous Greek government does nothing to facilitate events like this, and Im sure that you had to give many battles with the bureaucratic Hydra just to bring over your equipment and arms. While Im all for looking with a critical glance behind the ancient propaganda and myths, I think that Roel -The Ditch Lord is a bit unfair saying that eventually the battle of Thermopylai didnt matter in the long run. Yes it didnt play a critical role in organizing the ever bickering Greek states, but I think that it did play a role on the Persian side. I mean imagine driving a huge army through a small country, expecting to steamroll everything and then on the first contact, you are almost at the verge of a stalemate, with several elite units of yours coming back from the front line in tatters. Imaging what was whispered among the Persian and ally ranks. It must have been a shock especially when there would still be circulating stories about Marathon among the older troops and officers. The fact that they had to conceal their dead because their troops would have to march through the battle field means that they were fully aware that this could be an event that would worm in and erode their morale in future battles. Especially when they realized that this was a token force compared to what the Greek cities could field all together. This initial shock amplified by the loss at Salamis could be the reason why Xerxes decided to declare ''victory'' according to his propagated objectives (punish the Athenians and Eretrians) and buzz off home before any revolt could brew up, leaving Mardonius back to deal with the hot potato of a large land open battle.
Thank you very much! I can definitely see your point, especially from the Persian perspective. I think Roel was maybe meaning that it didnt really do anything but fracture the Greek coalition at first, but absolutely, from a Persian perspective, seeing your 10,000 immortals bested in battle, and many others before, would have had a mental effect for sure. The Persians hiding the bodies definitely helps support that!
Hiding the bodies has no proof or evidence. Just Herodotus's lying per usual, as he was told 1000 dead on the Achaemenid side and chose not to believe it. Even Dr. Roel states this on his Twitter.
No disrespect to Dr. Koejendik,@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History , but wouldn't quite a few of the Psiloi/Petlasts been armed with javelins? Didn't the mainland Greeks disapprove of the bow somewhat?
3:36 If he is going to tell something he should mention his sources. Not just tell what he thinks. The Spartans were 300 because they were the PERSONAL GUARD of king Leonidas. Sparta could not send more warriors because of a significant holiday at that time not allowing them to do so. The 1000 people were the warriors left behind to defend Thermopylae AFTER the betrayal of Ephialtis and they were the 300 Spartans plus about 700-1000 Thespians that refused to leave and let the Spartans take all the glory. So, at the start of the battle there were Greeks from several cities and the 300 Spartans. At the end the Thespians and the 300 Spartans alone.
He explains everything you raised. He explains that the Karnia, the festival, took place after. Our sources do not state that the 300 homoioi were the kings guard, the only thing said is that they all had heirs. Sparta went to war with the rest of Laconia, with helots, and periokoi. Not just Spartan citizens. As Roel states, 300 Spartans, but 1000 laconians. There are over 7000 greeks in total at Thermopylae, and it is not just the Spartans who stay behind, but Thebes, Thespians, and more. In reality, the events of this battle are cloudy to say the least. Herodotus, who gives us the most detailed account, was very young at the time of the battle, and his report is about 30 or so years after, so he's a nearly contemporary source. The truth is we dont know why Sparta sent so few. The festival can securely be dated to after the army marched, and only was an issue when Leonidas asked for more troops. The Oracle's message doesn't necessarily explain why they sent so many to be a sacrifice, as Roel says, a 10th of their full force. We see Sparta very reluctant to send their army out on many occasions, even to Plataea the following year. They had to send a force, as elected leaders of the coalition, but it would seem that they didn't want to fully commit and risk losing a massive part of their army before further securing their own land
Hoplon, the shield! The Spartan Mothers gave it to their departing to war sons saying: come back with it or on it! On it, means dead! Ripsaspis or shield thrower was the greatest shame for the Hellenes !
good work, but the girl using the bow has a weak bow, if you try it with a composite horn bow..the kind used by the man of Asia, I don't hink that a blow can't penetrate the shield
Our test wasnt to see how much damage the bow did to the armour. The image I show of the arrow poking through the shield was done with an accurate bow and accurate arrows. That was done by other reenactors, not us 😊
@@EsmereldaWeatherwax-f1s thank you! Yes, i have worn Panoply for over 8 hours straight. No rubbing. Back hurts after, but as long as everything fits yoh, which it needs to, youre fine!
How comfortable it is pretty much entirely dependent on how well made it is to properly fit your body. We actually have a source from a Socratic dialogue where they describe how properly fitted armor should feel like wearing a second skin, whereas poorly fitted armor will grow uncomfortable very quickly. Our experiences concur with their assessment!
Hello @LeonidasSparta-Fun-History, I'm a student at the history faculty in Bucharest and I have a topic to do about "hoplites in Greek art". Do you have any recommendations of primary and secondary sources I could use?
@@mihaialexandrumoldovan1659 hi there! Are you looking for literary or artistic sources? I'd highly recommend looking at the Beezly Archive pottery data base for artistic images and details!
Hi! I'm actually not sure, but we have people all over North America, from Ottawa in Canada, NY, Ohio, Florida, and more! Do you have Facebook? I can add you to our page
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-HistoryIdk if youtube allows links in comments but it's titles "We Produced a Video with 22 Students from the University of Zürich (Hoplite Revolution Debate)" by SandRhoman history. It should come up if you look it up on youtube.
Well, yes, the same geographical spot, but from other sources I've read, the battlefield from the Fifth Century BC is supposed to lie c. 20 meters below the modern surface. So much silting up and receding seascape and changes in courses of streams has changed the topography of this place. Plus archaeological digs, modern roadworks, drainage, construction -- the soil one stands on today is NOT the soil of 480 BC. But sure, the last stand hillock is still there, and has been reliably identified by researchers. If only the ancient lion monument to Leonidas had survived! Lost in the later centuries of invasions and battles. So many invaders passed thru this passage. But maybe some of it will re-emerge one day. And have any ancient graves been found there?
Sure, and i say in the film how much it has changed. Though Thermopylae has had a drastic change in topography, many battlefield have had a lot of change. Its still Thermopylae. Heck, Marathon has a whole town built over part of the battlefield and is now a public beach with an Olympic rowimg stadium on it!
Good stuff sir. Nice to see the increase in production values on this on. Not sure I agree wiht the good Dr's conclusions, especially about the Greek heavy infantry being able to just march clear, despite the Persian cavalry. No military historian would agree wiht that. Exhausted after two days battle, no way are a bunch of foot sloggers are going to out distance fresh cavaly. Without a "rearguard action", for whatever reason, the remaining Greeks would have ended up hemmed in by Persian cavalry, immobilised, and then shot down when the Persian infantry caught up in open country. And as to the Greek alliance "fragmenting... they're ancient Greeks. They all hated each other. No one died at the Hot Gates with "Hellas!" on his lips. So, the Good Dr is wrong about that. At least as far as I can see on those points. BUT... the Spartan's certainly did spin the battle, and "dined out" on it for the next 100 years. None of which takes away from a great story, well told. Kudos to you!
@@FelixstoweFoamForge thank you! Although i think theres a little confusion on what Roel is saying! The Persians couldnt use their cavalry at Thermopylae, as far as we know, no sources say they used them, and it was one of the reasons they chose Thermopylae. He was describing how the Persians generally fought. As for the Greeks hating each other, id have to disagree on such a broad statement. For most of their history, their conflicts were boarder distributes or over farmland. Now, certain states certainly had conflicts, such as Sparta and Argos, and later Sparta and Athens, and so on. However, Roel doesn't say they were all fighting for the glory of Hellas! But for their own cities within that. I think its possible that them staying was a rearguard move, however Roel is going from what the sources explicitly say. I appreciate your kind words!!
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History True enough, but the Persians could have certainly used their cavalry to pursue the Retreating Greeks. And with infantry following close behind...well combined arms seem to be what the Persians were good at and the late archaic greeks had largely ignored. As an (amatur) military historian and wargamer, i'd not give a bent obol for the chance of the retreating Greek contingents if the Persians had caught them with an all-arms force. As to sources, they're vitally important. BUT....if we just go by what people wrote, Agincourt was won by the English longbowmen shooting French Knights down in huge numbers and that certainly wasn't what happened if modern research on the effects of even a very powerful warbow vs even iron plate armour tells us. Much more complicated than that. Sources can be... biased? As I said, I loved the video, and I disagree with SOME of Dr Roels conclusions. But it's good to disagree and have an exchange of views!
@@FelixstoweFoamForge i agree, and there is definitely a limit to what sources tell us! Disagreements are great because they allow you both to grow and think differently! I appreciate your words a lot, thank you!
Very good video. I was there in 2002. It's a shame about the traffic thundering past within feet of the memorial, but then I guess it's still the most convenient route between northern an southern Greece. In the spirit of continuous improvement, I could wish for your pronunciation of Leonidas to be consistent - and correct. At different times, e.g. right at the very end of the video, you say "Lay-on-ee-das" (which I believe to be correct) or "Lee-on-eye-das". Only by promulgating the correct pronunciations of such Greek words can we lead people away from the hideous modern mispronunciations. Nevertheless, good work !
@@grahamtravers4522 thank you! Yes, i noticed i slip up a few times. The correct way (which is what i say the most 😊) is Lay-on-ee-das. Of course, as an English speaker, for my whole life i have heard it pronounced the incorrect americanized way, and so when im in the flow i sometimes resort back unfortunately.
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History in Greek it’s pronounced as it’s written. Leonidas with e like in ‘’there’’ . Leon+idas or in attic dialect -ides means son of lion. Imagine how Spanish prounounce Leon add -idas and you are good to go
I visited Thermopylae it was no special , Chaeronea yes it was very special, and it is no even marked, the world wants too forget .G and produce a video on that battle, Philip conquest of the world 338BC. saludos
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History thank God I don't have to defend my comments, on the entire región there is no markers of any of many battle disputed, it so bad that the Symbols and name of Macedonia have changed colors and name, yes the lion is there but it doesn't Mark the place where the world changed for ever , saludos
I don't agree with the remark that the battle was unnecessary or even a failure on the Greek side. By fighting at the pass, they used their force most effectively. The fact they were outnumbered didn't really matter because of the bottle neck effect, this only changed once the Persians found out about the path to outflank them. They had to face the Persians somewhere, better to do it where the force is most deadly than somewhere else.
@@m-h1217 not saying they didnt do a mighty good job! But how wasn't it a failure? They failed to stop the Persians from entering Greece, which was the whole idea of the battle. Not to mention the effects it had on the coalition which Roel mentioned. Definitely a valiant attempt, but it was a defeat in the end, not even really a "moral victory"
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History I don't consider defeat and failure synonymous. Especially on a war scale. I believe it's inaccurate to view the battle from the idea it was to stop the Persians from entering Greece. That might've been the original idea, but ideas change. With the knowledge the Persians were in hundredths of thousands in numbers, perhaps even millions in their mind, they wouldn't keep this idea, because its unrealistic and impossible. So I think we shouldn't either. I strongly believe as knowledge of the fact stopping the Persians at Thermopylae with their numbers was impossible, the idea changed to simply hold the pass for as long as possible, aligning with the aforementioned reasons in my previous response. This is the only logical idea that makes sense. If the relevant plan was not to defeat the Persians, then it was not a failure to be defeated.
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History Roel is relying on Herodotus view of the battle which in and of itself is biased towards the Athenians and is in some way "spinning what actually happened" in the same way the Spartans did in the other direction. Roel is doing the same just from a different point of view. Disunity and division is part of the Greek character and the rest of the city states still ended up looking to Sparta to lead the war afterwards rather than Athens.
What a great video! Interesting information, marvellous living history kits and Dr. Ditch himself! And all this presented by an awesome host! This is how it's done!
The comparison between Roman age Sparta and Classical Sparta is completely different. We are talking around 700 years of difference, much of Sparta was nothing like classical
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History yes you are correct , all human history is similar, what is it exactly that you are defending, I just present examples of reality, the Visigoth finally destroyed Sparta as a political juridisticion and a ethnic group, saludos
@@pavelavietor1 i am defending that the Sparta you talk about is basically not the Sparta in the era if this video. That Sparta was completely different culturally, politically, and was under Roman rule
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History you are delusional analize what you just have written , " the Sparta you are talking about is not the Sparta of today " . The Sparta of today and the Hellenic people and Identity continuo to exist , Example, they forced Macedonia to change their name to North Macedonia, the symbols you are presenting on this video are protecting the Sparta identity of today, they are the same people on the same geography . Yes go and tell the Hellenic that they are not who they are. I am just presenting real examples, go and prove me erroneous if you can, defend you comments . saludos
Ephialtēs Ἐφιάλτης: The Greek name Ephialtēs (Ἐφιάλτης) has a rich etymology rooted in ancient Greek. It is composed of two elements: ἐπί (epi) - meaning "upon" or "on top of." ἅλλομαι (hallomai) - meaning "to leap" or "to jump." Thus, Ephialtēs literally translates to something like "the one who leaps upon" or "the one who jumps on." In ancient Greek, the term was often associated with a nightmare or a demon that leaps upon a person while they sleep, pressing down on their chest and causing fear and distress during sleep, which could explain its later metaphorical meaning of "betrayer."
@@stevecreighton5809 Athens was fighting at sea. You are confusing this with the Battle of Marathon, where it was the Spartans who had their festival and arrived the day after 😊
I remember reading ? Or hearing Leonidas had murdered Someone and was going to be placed on trial so he went to Thermopylae to evade trial. I might be making all of this up tho 🤦🏻♂️
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History I have never heard about the trial part but I have read that some suspect he was guilty of killing Cleomenes, and that it was a murder-not a suicide. The idea being that Thermoplyae was a sort of penance for him. I think this is speculation from some modern historians though, not something suggested in the sources.
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-HistoryIf I remember correctly I read the theory in "Thermoplyae: Battle for the West" by Ernle Bradford , 1993. I'm not sure though it's been a few years. I might have read it in another place. I agree with you though, I don't believe it. I was just speculating on where the OP might have got it from.
"they didnt want to commit much force in this early battle because they didnt gave more importance to defend pellopenesian peninsula" then why the hell they send their king as a commander to this early skirmish? That explanation of why spartans send few men doesnt make any sense
It does, as Roel explains. They were elected as the leaders of this coalition. They HAD to send a force. And they supposedly recieved the message from the Oracle
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History oracle story is not more realistic than the religious festival narrative tho. Both are spartans being religiously motivated. I dont think any society would send their king to a battle they deem as unimportant. There must be another reason for Spartans to not send many people which we dont know yet.
@@conquistador5228 the Spartans were incredibly religious people though. I agree with Roel on this one. We see how reluctant the Spartans are to dispatch their army, and by sending a king and a force of around 1000 shows the coalition that they were sending a force, and a force similar to the other Greeks at the time as well. They were also in command of the naval blockade. They likely didn't want to risk sending a king and their full army so far away from the Peloponnese, they were even reluctant for Plataea
The emphasis on the "walls" is curious, because ancient writers quite specifically note that the Greeks fought in *front* of the old wall (which had fallen into disrepair; it's written that Leonidas set to work rebuilding it), not on top of it or behind it. This was not a siege battle. The wall was used as a protective screen and obstacle but was not defended in itself as such. I must also point out that the ancients refer to Thermopylae as having *three* "gates " -- or significantly narrow passages within the length of the pass (c. 6 kilometers). Wikipedia's entry on the Battle of Thermopylae actually is fairly comprehensive about this and other matters. The map shown in this video is misleading in that the pass is depicted as lying on a north-south axis when it is in fact on an east-west orientation. The westernmost "gate" was narrow but the slopes leading down were easily surmountable, so that was unsuitable. Same for the easternmost gate. Leonidas chose to make his stand at the Middle Gate (where the Phocian wall had been erected, and near by the hot springs that give the place its name) because while wider, the mountain sides protecting his left flank were much more sheer and so more protective of his battle line.
The reaaon for depicting it this way was because it was the consensus from many top historians and would also seem to fit from the archeological remaims (though the topography has obviously changed.) The hoplites themselves didn't fight on the walls, but we know that there were a lot of light troops, and it definitely makes sense for them to be either behind it or on it throwing stones and javelins at the Persians! Now, not a siege as in the Persians were having to scale a wall with the whole Greek force on it. Id say that my map is not misleading, it specifically focuses on the thinnest part of the pass at 15m, shows that the sea level was much higher, and also gives a possible possition of the phocian wall, in the same orientation as it is on site, and how it was likely utilized by peltasts next to the fighting ground. The map also has no compass as to suggest i am saying it goes north to south because it would have looked rather odd if i twisted it sideways, so i decided to make the map as though you were stood at Thermopylae looking forward.
Hello, I said it already so sorry for repeating myself but I still feel its relevant to say it again: The quality of your content is steadily increasing and is becoming really good. I started following your channel with the Sparta re-examined series and felt like although the substance was great, the form was quite an obstacle for viewership, mainly the audio quality/video and sometimes the presentation. With this documentary, (which is exceptionnaly good), and even before, I am amazed as to what you have achieved (both in substance and in form). I hope you will carry on publishing such quality content and will surely recommend your channel to anyone interested in the topic. If I may do a small suggestion, which I've seen mentionned before by someone else , I think it would be nice to include more textual cues (like, when you mention a name, battle or whatever, to for example have a little text displayed in the corner for a few seconds, it could be done in a non obtrusive way to still be present to help) Greatings from Belgium.
@@Piloulegrand thank you so much! I did have some problems with the audio (mainly me forgetting to put the right mic on lol) and it is certainly more of a podcast/smaller viewer interest, however i like doing them because of the topics. I hope to make more videos like this! Appreciate your kind words
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History please don't hesitate to do again something like the Sparta re-examined series (or continue it), it's really really good.and informative. Even if the format is less "palatable", the content is such that I could listen to it for hours. I also have to say that you are a great moderator for those kind of discussions
The ancient "Greeks" as we call them today, primarily identified themselves by their city-state affiliation rather than as a unified group of Hellenes/"Greeks". For example, they would refer to themselves as Athenians, Spartans, or Corinthians, depending on their city-state. The term "Hellenes" (Ἕλληνες) was used to describe themselves collectively, but it was not as common in everyday use among the general population. The concept of Hellenism grew over time, especially during the classical period, as a sense of shared language, culture, and religious practices began to emerge. The Panhellenic identity became more pronounced during events like the Olympic Games, which united various city-states and or when they went to war specifically and put aside their differences like what we see in the battle of Thermopylae and when they fought big wars against the Achaemenid empire, but many Hellenic city states and people allied with the Achaemenids during these battles also because i guess they were already at edge with them specifically Athens and Sparta. However, local identities remained strong, and many people primarily identified with their specific city-state or region rather than what you call them in this video as "Greeks", So why don't you refer to them as Hellenes at least which is historically accurate?
Youre correct, but please consider i am talking to a wide audience. "Ancient Greek hoplite" is a very clear and understood term. They were hoplites, who inhabited Greece, in the ancient times. Thats also not incorrect. Thats like saying you shouldnt say Roman age england as it wasn't called England then. This armour also isn't linked to any polis, though i have taken more sources from Laconian art and depictions. So I use "Ancient Greece" because ot is widely understood, and doesn't limit the presentation on a particular polis.
@@mutsuzawa because he is generally pretty reliable, and he is one of the only (nearly) contemporary sources for the Persian wars. The oral tradition of these stories dont really survive
Herodotus’s histories to some extent actually was basically a collection of oral traditions that he just wrote down. He would travel to different places, ask the people there about the history of events, and then record what they told him. There are many instances where different peoples gave him conflicting accounts of the same event, so he gives both versions and then weighs in which one he thinks is more likely and why.
Or maybe one of the reasons for sending 300 spartiates with 700 other spartans was that they wanted to send just the king, but the other greeks would probably wonder wtf is sparta doing sending only their king.
@@dannygo500 hmmm, not sure on that, no reason really for us to think that, as Roel breaks down on the documentary, its likely they just didnt want to fully commit, which is a common theme for Sparta. Again, if it was a suicide mission, then they sent almost a 10th of their full force, which is a huge number.
@@dannygo500 we don't know for sure. Likely because they either believed they would be able to hold the pass, or because they simply didnt want to send more than what they did, but still wanted to contribute to the coalition
@@timothyfagiolo2364 thank you! Good question!! If im being quite honest im not 100% sure. This part of Greece has seen quite a lot of landform change through storms and landslides, but that only really explains why the pass itself is different. I believe there has been around a 3 meter drop in sea level since the time, so its possible that the ground was deeper and the sea filled it. But im not 100%, scientists just know it was once sea, and our sources mention it too!
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History In Italy, the once Ravenna's port is 3/4 km from what is the sea front, look on the map where is Sant Apollinare in classe( former port church and where is the city)... usa citizens never undertsnd how the europe and asia are old
Mainly silting from the nearby Sperchios river, but also landslides from Mt Kallidromos overlooking the pass.. The sea level was also perhaps 1-2m higher at the time.
your content is ridiculously underrated i hope to see your channel grow
@@meatball3276 appreciate it! We've actually been growing fastrr recently which is nice to see!!
@meatball3276 Then do your part to help the video go viral. 😉
I've always wanted to see a UA-cam video like this, where someone actually visited the modern Thermopylae battlefield! Thanks!
Thanks very much! Glad you enjoyed it!
G'day from Tasmania, You have brought back my love for greek history! I got one of your cool coffee mugs cheers 🍻
Thank you so much! That is amazing to hear!! And that is very kind, thank you!
IS THAT THE DITCH MASTER!?!?!? ROEL KONIJNENDIJK, BRING OUT THE SHOVELS WE HAVE SOME DIGGING TO DO?!?!
THAT is what I call great content !!
@@tipitjo thank you very much!!
Wow, so much effort put into this great documentary. I hope this gets more views!
@@Athan2 thank you!! Its been a lot of work, but i enjoyed very step we took to create it!!
Now you need to go to Sparta and tell them. Damn, we all need to do it.
Adam mate, this is a very well put together documentary. Your production value and information conveyed is top notch. Congratulations on all your work and that of everyone who contributed. Keep up the excellent work. I look forward to watching more of your content.
Thank you so much! I really appreciate that!!
41:40 "So here we are, Thermopylae. Area where the Spartans sent a token force who all died for no reason."
Well, i wouldnt say there was no reason. The pass was supposed to be held. That was the Order and behind that Order was sense. That combined with the strict Law of "Courage in Battle" regarding Sparta, you get a famous last Stand. And it was no "Token-force" either, 300 Spartans were quite a lot of Soldiers when taking into regard, that Sparta (at its peak)only had about 5-8000 fully trained and equiped Spartans. Combine that with the other 700 lite armored Troops Sparta send, and you get quite a force. The defeat was also nothing the Spartans had any controll over. Their Tactic worked, the pass held up! The enemy surrounding was what crashed the plan, but no Leader could make any more out of the situation in that position.
Ill gladly here back from you and am open for further conversation about this Topic.
Best regards:)
No reason???
1) Spartans were fighting to WIN at first. They just got betrayed and were killed because of that.
They were pretty aware of their fighting force that could stand against the enemy.
2) They may died but inflicted so much damage to that "undefeated" enemy that made an example to the rest of the Greeks to stand and fight and WIN.
3) Persians were so damaged by that small fighting farce that they lost every courage to continue the fight.
If Leonidas reason for staying was glory and being remembered...mission accomplished.
@@zombiehampster1397 if it was glory then glory he certainly got! Though it would seem maybe a little after the immediate outcome
Leonidas words were "tonight we'll have dinner in Hades" @@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History
Greetings from your friendly peltast and water carrier 😂! It was great being with all these guys and im glad there's content getting made ❤
This is amazing!
@@spookinhourmedia thanks so much!!
Awesome doc. Please do more stuff like this. Love it🤟
your content is actually so great! Makes work much more bearble. I hope this channel blows right up. Extra points for getting the ditch master himself on
Thank you so much! That means a lot
Great video bro!
@@rengarthedwarf4029 thank you!!
Wow, this is such a great video, and filmed on location too, very cool!
Thanks so much!
We'll done!! Absolutely love it - grateful that there are creators such as you that put in the work to retell history so well! Thank you!
@@therealsokratis thank you so much! Those are very kind words
Wonderful! Great content, no nonsense! Better than every TV-production!
@@BenjaminLengemann thank you very much! Thats quite to compliment!
This is the most important battle of antiquity in my life. Thanks pa.
A great video and something that has been needed for so long.
The effort you put in is really shining through in your content.
@@Sditchvampire thank you so much!
Dude!!! What a work!!!
Thanks!!!
You are most welcome!! Thanks so much!!
Comment for the algorithm.
I'll be sure to watch it fully at a later time, many many thanks for your work and much love!
@@kostasbiker9302 thanks so much! Appreciate it 😊
Roel is such a pleasure to listen to, always
He really is! Does a great job as usual!
Amazing work keep it up❤
Thank you!
300 Spartans, 700 Helots whom were not slaves but also not citizens of Sparta.
Adam outstanding work!!! It was worth the wait, I am gonna try to get this video to 480 likes !!!!!!
Thank you so much! I appreciate your continued support and positivity!
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History you are very welcome
Well, we got 480 likes!
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History haha lol
U need to make similar but short video about the battle of sepeia
It has interesting story and overall Sparta/Argos rivalry is interesting
You are so awesome and cool 🤩🤩🤩🤩🤩 What a masterpiece 🎉 Can’t wait for more ‼️
Aww thank you!! That profile pic is a masterpiece :)
I really am enjoying this so far. Your production and editing are very good.
I would like to push back on one of the arguments made by the Professor if you don't mind, that being the argument that sending 1,000 as a sacrifice to the gods is too much (and therefore not small enough to make sense with the Oracle) and that the reason was probably mostly just tactical.
This view downplays too much in my opinion how superstitious and religious the ancient Greeks were. Their oracles were taken very seriously. Academia, I believe, tends to retroactively look at the past, especially pre-Christianity, through too much of a secular view. These people really believed in the gods and military and political policy regularly was influenced by their faith.
Who is to say 1,000 is not a few from the Spartan point of view? He is presupposing it is too much based on a arbitrary standard in my opinion. However, if the Spartans truly believed this oracle, they would also likely worry about not sending enough to appease the gods. And again, a tenth of their army may have seemed small to them.
His argument is one I never heard before, but one I do not find conclusive.
@@hermonymusofsparta thank you very much! It is certainly an interesting topic, and i don't believe Roel is necessarily denying either option, just stating what he believes is most likely. Appreciate your kind words
Hey I know you put a lot of work into this, so I'll post it in the Metatron discord under self advertisement.
@@baronvonboomboom4349 thanks so much i appreciate that a lot!! Thank you
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History I can't remember are you not on there? Could have sworn that's where I found you from.
@@baronvonboomboom4349 i used to be, but my discord was being super buggy so i ended up deleting it
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History If you need a reinvite i can drop a link.
@@baronvonboomboom4349 i appreciate that! Might end up making a new account. Ill let you know!
very interesting
I've always wanted to visit, though I wouldn't know what would be a fitting sign of respect for those brave Greek warriors.
A laurel wreath
First of all thank you for the commitment of your time and energy. Im fully aware that the ridiculous Greek government does nothing to facilitate events like this, and Im sure that you had to give many battles with the bureaucratic Hydra just to bring over your equipment and arms.
While Im all for looking with a critical glance behind the ancient propaganda and myths, I think that Roel -The Ditch Lord is a bit unfair saying that eventually the battle of Thermopylai didnt matter in the long run. Yes it didnt play a critical role in organizing the ever bickering Greek states, but I think that it did play a role on the Persian side. I mean imagine driving a huge army through a small country, expecting to steamroll everything and then on the first contact, you are almost at the verge of a stalemate, with several elite units of yours coming back from the front line in tatters. Imaging what was whispered among the Persian and ally ranks. It must have been a shock especially when there would still be circulating stories about Marathon among the older troops and officers. The fact that they had to conceal their dead because their troops would have to march through the battle field means that they were fully aware that this could be an event that would worm in and erode their morale in future battles. Especially when they realized that this was a token force compared to what the Greek cities could field all together.
This initial shock amplified by the loss at Salamis could be the reason why Xerxes decided to declare ''victory'' according to his propagated objectives (punish the Athenians and Eretrians) and buzz off home before any revolt could brew up, leaving Mardonius back to deal with the hot potato of a large land open battle.
Thank you very much! I can definitely see your point, especially from the Persian perspective. I think Roel was maybe meaning that it didnt really do anything but fracture the Greek coalition at first, but absolutely, from a Persian perspective, seeing your 10,000 immortals bested in battle, and many others before, would have had a mental effect for sure. The Persians hiding the bodies definitely helps support that!
Hiding the bodies has no proof or evidence. Just Herodotus's lying per usual, as he was told 1000 dead on the Achaemenid side and chose not to believe it. Even Dr. Roel states this on his Twitter.
Go tell the Spartans stanger passing by I did not know that the Spartans could rhyme 😜 also a rhyme
First time I heard someone non Greek say the name Leonidas correctly
If Thermopylae was in the US, there would be parking lots and visitor centers and gift shops all over it. 😅
Well there is a visitor centre and parking lot on the other end of the street!
The statue was erected and paid for by greeks in the west, I would like to say from America, I believe
No disrespect to Dr. Koejendik,@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History , but wouldn't quite a few of the Psiloi/Petlasts been armed with javelins? Didn't the mainland Greeks disapprove of the bow somewhat?
@@NobleKorhedron definitely javelins, slings, rock throwers, but we do also see bows! Not as common though
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History So only the Spartiates, and possibly the Periokoi, eschewed any missiles longer ranged than javelins?
3:36 If he is going to tell something he should mention his sources. Not just tell what he thinks.
The Spartans were 300 because they were the PERSONAL GUARD of king Leonidas.
Sparta could not send more warriors because of a significant holiday at that time not allowing them to do so.
The 1000 people were the warriors left behind to defend Thermopylae AFTER the betrayal of Ephialtis and they were the 300 Spartans plus about 700-1000 Thespians that refused to leave and let the Spartans take all the glory.
So, at the start of the battle there were Greeks from several cities and the 300 Spartans.
At the end the Thespians and the 300 Spartans alone.
He explains everything you raised. He explains that the Karnia, the festival, took place after. Our sources do not state that the 300 homoioi were the kings guard, the only thing said is that they all had heirs. Sparta went to war with the rest of Laconia, with helots, and periokoi. Not just Spartan citizens. As Roel states, 300 Spartans, but 1000 laconians. There are over 7000 greeks in total at Thermopylae, and it is not just the Spartans who stay behind, but Thebes, Thespians, and more. In reality, the events of this battle are cloudy to say the least. Herodotus, who gives us the most detailed account, was very young at the time of the battle, and his report is about 30 or so years after, so he's a nearly contemporary source. The truth is we dont know why Sparta sent so few. The festival can securely be dated to after the army marched, and only was an issue when Leonidas asked for more troops. The Oracle's message doesn't necessarily explain why they sent so many to be a sacrifice, as Roel says, a 10th of their full force. We see Sparta very reluctant to send their army out on many occasions, even to Plataea the following year. They had to send a force, as elected leaders of the coalition, but it would seem that they didn't want to fully commit and risk losing a massive part of their army before further securing their own land
i wish i could’ve been a seagull or a fly just watching the battle overhead
Hoplon, the shield! The Spartan Mothers gave it to their departing to war sons saying: come back with it or on it! On it, means dead! Ripsaspis or shield thrower was the greatest shame for the Hellenes !
good work, but the girl using the bow has a weak bow, if you try it with a composite horn bow..the kind used by the man of Asia, I don't hink that a blow can't penetrate the shield
Our test wasnt to see how much damage the bow did to the armour. The image I show of the arrow poking through the shield was done with an accurate bow and accurate arrows. That was done by other reenactors, not us 😊
Didn't expect the ditch lord to appear
He tunnels around the internet... you have to know how to do those things when you dig ditches all the time 😜
Great job Adam. I'm wondering how comfortable is the panoply? Can you wear it all day with minimal rubbing especially the greaves? Thank you :-)
@@EsmereldaWeatherwax-f1s thank you! Yes, i have worn Panoply for over 8 hours straight. No rubbing. Back hurts after, but as long as everything fits yoh, which it needs to, youre fine!
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History Thanks for that Adam :-)
How comfortable it is pretty much entirely dependent on how well made it is to properly fit your body. We actually have a source from a Socratic dialogue where they describe how properly fitted armor should feel like wearing a second skin, whereas poorly fitted armor will grow uncomfortable very quickly. Our experiences concur with their assessment!
Hello @LeonidasSparta-Fun-History, I'm a student at the history faculty in Bucharest and I have a topic to do about "hoplites in Greek art". Do you have any recommendations of primary and secondary sources I could use?
@@mihaialexandrumoldovan1659 hi there! Are you looking for literary or artistic sources? I'd highly recommend looking at the Beezly Archive pottery data base for artistic images and details!
This is a great documetary, how'd you get your helmet? (at 19:00)
@@Discobear6405 thank you! That helmet was custom made by Genius Steel Crafts. You can get in contact on facebook!
I was hoping to get connected to your living history group. Do you have members in Massachusetts?
Hi! I'm actually not sure, but we have people all over North America, from Ottawa in Canada, NY, Ohio, Florida, and more! Do you have Facebook? I can add you to our page
@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History i dont go on Facebook. Is that the only connection point?
I tried instagramming someone but they didn't accept my request
You should make a commentary/reaction video to the new sandrhoman history video about ancient greek warfare. Thanks.
@@Jim58223 i haven't seen it! Could you send a link?
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-Historyua-cam.com/video/pnDtf0muoqI/v-deo.htmlfeature=shared if youtube allows this
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-HistoryIdk if youtube allows links in comments but it's titles "We Produced a Video with 22 Students from the University of Zürich (Hoplite Revolution Debate)" by SandRhoman history. It should come up if you look it up on youtube.
The ditch master is in it.
@@Jim58223 yes i was just watching it! So far i am really enjoying it!
that reminds me the 300 the movie...
probably because its loosely based on the same event ;)
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History
Indeed.
Well, yes, the same geographical spot, but from other sources I've read, the battlefield from the Fifth Century BC is supposed to lie c. 20 meters below the modern surface. So much silting up and receding seascape and changes in courses of streams has changed the topography of this place. Plus archaeological digs, modern roadworks, drainage, construction -- the soil one stands on today is NOT the soil of 480 BC. But sure, the last stand hillock is still there, and has been reliably identified by researchers. If only the ancient lion monument to Leonidas had survived! Lost in the later centuries of invasions and battles. So many invaders passed thru this passage. But maybe some of it will re-emerge one day. And have any ancient graves been found there?
Sure, and i say in the film how much it has changed. Though Thermopylae has had a drastic change in topography, many battlefield have had a lot of change. Its still Thermopylae. Heck, Marathon has a whole town built over part of the battlefield and is now a public beach with an Olympic rowimg stadium on it!
The silt deposited by the thermal springs and the river Sperchius for 2000+ years is responsible for the change in the topography
@@apmoy70 and theres also been quite a few earthquakes and landslides
Good stuff sir. Nice to see the increase in production values on this on. Not sure I agree wiht the good Dr's conclusions, especially about the Greek heavy infantry being able to just march clear, despite the Persian cavalry. No military historian would agree wiht that. Exhausted after two days battle, no way are a bunch of foot sloggers are going to out distance fresh cavaly. Without a "rearguard action", for whatever reason, the remaining Greeks would have ended up hemmed in by Persian cavalry, immobilised, and then shot down when the Persian infantry caught up in open country.
And as to the Greek alliance "fragmenting... they're ancient Greeks. They all hated each other. No one died at the Hot Gates with "Hellas!" on his lips. So, the Good Dr is wrong about that. At least as far as I can see on those points. BUT... the Spartan's certainly did spin the battle, and "dined out" on it for the next 100 years.
None of which takes away from a great story, well told.
Kudos to you!
@@FelixstoweFoamForge thank you! Although i think theres a little confusion on what Roel is saying! The Persians couldnt use their cavalry at Thermopylae, as far as we know, no sources say they used them, and it was one of the reasons they chose Thermopylae. He was describing how the Persians generally fought. As for the Greeks hating each other, id have to disagree on such a broad statement. For most of their history, their conflicts were boarder distributes or over farmland. Now, certain states certainly had conflicts, such as Sparta and Argos, and later Sparta and Athens, and so on. However, Roel doesn't say they were all fighting for the glory of Hellas! But for their own cities within that. I think its possible that them staying was a rearguard move, however Roel is going from what the sources explicitly say. I appreciate your kind words!!
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History True enough, but the Persians could have certainly used their cavalry to pursue the Retreating Greeks. And with infantry following close behind...well combined arms seem to be what the Persians were good at and the late archaic greeks had largely ignored. As an (amatur) military historian and wargamer, i'd not give a bent obol for the chance of the retreating Greek contingents if the Persians had caught them with an all-arms force.
As to sources, they're vitally important. BUT....if we just go by what people wrote, Agincourt was won by the English longbowmen shooting French Knights down in huge numbers and that certainly wasn't what happened if modern research on the effects of even a very powerful warbow vs even iron plate armour tells us. Much more complicated than that. Sources can be... biased?
As I said, I loved the video, and I disagree with SOME of Dr Roels conclusions. But it's good to disagree and have an exchange of views!
@@FelixstoweFoamForge i agree, and there is definitely a limit to what sources tell us! Disagreements are great because they allow you both to grow and think differently! I appreciate your words a lot, thank you!
Ω ξειν, αγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ότι τήδε κείμεθα τοις κείνων ρήμασι πειθόμενοι…
Greetings from GYTHEIO (Land of Gods) the port of Sparta ..
❤❤❤
Very good video. I was there in 2002. It's a shame about the traffic thundering past within feet of the memorial, but then I guess it's still the most convenient route between northern an southern Greece. In the spirit of continuous improvement, I could wish for your pronunciation of Leonidas to be consistent - and correct. At different times, e.g. right at the very end of the video, you say "Lay-on-ee-das" (which I believe to be correct) or "Lee-on-eye-das". Only by promulgating the correct pronunciations of such Greek words can we lead people away from the hideous modern mispronunciations. Nevertheless, good work !
@@grahamtravers4522 thank you! Yes, i noticed i slip up a few times. The correct way (which is what i say the most 😊) is Lay-on-ee-das. Of course, as an English speaker, for my whole life i have heard it pronounced the incorrect americanized way, and so when im in the flow i sometimes resort back unfortunately.
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History Keep up the good work. 👍
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History in Greek it’s pronounced as it’s written. Leonidas with e like in ‘’there’’ . Leon+idas or in attic dialect -ides means son of lion. Imagine how Spanish prounounce Leon add -idas and you are good to go
I visited Thermopylae it was no special , Chaeronea yes it was very special, and it is no even marked, the world wants too forget .G and produce a video on that battle, Philip conquest of the world 338BC. saludos
@@pavelavietor1 that is very subjective. Chaeronea is absolutely marked, there is a museum there and the lion statue.
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History thank God I don't have to defend my comments, on the entire región there is no markers of any of many battle disputed, it so bad that the Symbols and name of Macedonia have changed colors and name, yes the lion is there but it doesn't Mark the place where the world changed for ever , saludos
No you got It all wrong Adam The Imortals are double wielding katana ninjas lol
Oooopsie! My bad ;)
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History its ok begginers mistake🤣
@7714-x1b Inmortals.... we'll put their name to the test.
Thespians are incredibly based.
Is that a Philippine hoplon I see at 34:30? Haha
It is indeed. My friend carrying it is half-Filipino, so he wanted to do a shield blazon that honored his family heritage
I don't agree with the remark that the battle was unnecessary or even a failure on the Greek side. By fighting at the pass, they used their force most effectively. The fact they were outnumbered didn't really matter because of the bottle neck effect, this only changed once the Persians found out about the path to outflank them.
They had to face the Persians somewhere, better to do it where the force is most deadly than somewhere else.
@@m-h1217 not saying they didnt do a mighty good job! But how wasn't it a failure? They failed to stop the Persians from entering Greece, which was the whole idea of the battle. Not to mention the effects it had on the coalition which Roel mentioned. Definitely a valiant attempt, but it was a defeat in the end, not even really a "moral victory"
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History I don't consider defeat and failure synonymous. Especially on a war scale.
I believe it's inaccurate to view the battle from the idea it was to stop the Persians from entering Greece. That might've been the original idea, but ideas change. With the knowledge the Persians were in hundredths of thousands in numbers, perhaps even millions in their mind, they wouldn't keep this idea, because its unrealistic and impossible. So I think we shouldn't either.
I strongly believe as knowledge of the fact stopping the Persians at Thermopylae with their numbers was impossible, the idea changed to simply hold the pass for as long as possible, aligning with the aforementioned reasons in my previous response. This is the only logical idea that makes sense.
If the relevant plan was not to defeat the Persians, then it was not a failure to be defeated.
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History Roel is relying on Herodotus view of the battle which in and of itself is biased towards the Athenians and is in some way "spinning what actually happened" in the same way the Spartans did in the other direction. Roel is doing the same just from a different point of view.
Disunity and division is part of the Greek character and the rest of the city states still ended up looking to Sparta to lead the war afterwards rather than Athens.
What a great video! Interesting information, marvellous living history kits and Dr. Ditch himself! And all this presented by an awesome host! This is how it's done!
Thats so kind, thank you very very much!
you grandfather the Iberovisigoth destroyed the Spartans, very interesting. saludos
The comparison between Roman age Sparta and Classical Sparta is completely different. We are talking around 700 years of difference, much of Sparta was nothing like classical
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History yes you are correct , all human history is similar, what is it exactly that you are defending, I just present examples of reality, the Visigoth finally destroyed Sparta as a political juridisticion and a ethnic group, saludos
@@pavelavietor1 i am defending that the Sparta you talk about is basically not the Sparta in the era if this video. That Sparta was completely different culturally, politically, and was under Roman rule
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History you are delusional analize what you just have written , " the Sparta you are talking about is not the Sparta of today " . The Sparta of today and the Hellenic people and Identity continuo to exist , Example, they forced Macedonia to change their name to North Macedonia, the symbols you are presenting on this video are protecting the Sparta identity of today, they are the same people on the same geography . Yes go and tell the Hellenic that they are not who they are. I am just presenting real examples, go and prove me erroneous if you can, defend you comments . saludos
@@pavelavietor1 you misunderstood. I mean the Sparta of the day.... as in the day and era of this video, so 5th c bc Sparta
Ephialtēs Ἐφιάλτης: The Greek name Ephialtēs (Ἐφιάλτης) has a rich etymology rooted in ancient Greek. It is composed of two elements: ἐπί (epi) - meaning "upon" or "on top of." ἅλλομαι (hallomai) - meaning "to leap" or "to jump."
Thus, Ephialtēs literally translates to something like "the one who leaps upon" or "the one who jumps on." In ancient Greek, the term was often associated with a nightmare or a demon that leaps upon a person while they sleep, pressing down on their chest and causing fear and distress during sleep, which could explain its later metaphorical meaning of "betrayer."
Athens couldn't help because they had a religious ceremony that day so they couldn't bring their armies until after
@@stevecreighton5809 Athens was fighting at sea. You are confusing this with the Battle of Marathon, where it was the Spartans who had their festival and arrived the day after 😊
I remember reading ? Or hearing Leonidas had murdered Someone and was going to be placed on trial so he went to Thermopylae to evade trial. I might be making all of this up tho 🤦🏻♂️
Thats certainly a new one! We don't have any sources which say that
The father of Gorgo he means
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History I have never heard about the trial part but I have read that some suspect he was guilty of killing Cleomenes, and that it was a murder-not a suicide. The idea being that Thermoplyae was a sort of penance for him. I think this is speculation from some modern historians though, not something suggested in the sources.
@@hermonymusofsparta interesting... im not sold on that to be honest, i havent seen a single contemporary source which suggest that
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-HistoryIf I remember correctly I read the theory in "Thermoplyae: Battle for the West" by Ernle Bradford , 1993. I'm not sure though it's been a few years. I might have read it in another place. I agree with you though, I don't believe it. I was just speculating on where the OP might have got it from.
"they didnt want to commit much force in this early battle because they didnt gave more importance to defend pellopenesian peninsula" then why the hell they send their king as a commander to this early skirmish? That explanation of why spartans send few men doesnt make any sense
It does, as Roel explains. They were elected as the leaders of this coalition. They HAD to send a force. And they supposedly recieved the message from the Oracle
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History oracle story is not more realistic than the religious festival narrative tho. Both are spartans being religiously motivated. I dont think any society would send their king to a battle they deem as unimportant. There must be another reason for Spartans to not send many people which we dont know yet.
@@conquistador5228 the Spartans were incredibly religious people though. I agree with Roel on this one. We see how reluctant the Spartans are to dispatch their army, and by sending a king and a force of around 1000 shows the coalition that they were sending a force, and a force similar to the other Greeks at the time as well. They were also in command of the naval blockade. They likely didn't want to risk sending a king and their full army so far away from the Peloponnese, they were even reluctant for Plataea
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History but they send their king tho. So their reluctantness doesnt play it out here.
The emphasis on the "walls" is curious, because ancient writers quite specifically note that the Greeks fought in *front* of the old wall (which had fallen into disrepair; it's written that Leonidas set to work rebuilding it), not on top of it or behind it. This was not a siege battle. The wall was used as a protective screen and obstacle but was not defended in itself as such.
I must also point out that the ancients refer to Thermopylae as having *three* "gates " -- or significantly narrow passages within the length of the pass (c. 6 kilometers). Wikipedia's entry on the Battle of Thermopylae actually is fairly comprehensive about this and other matters. The map shown in this video is misleading in that the pass is depicted as lying on a north-south axis when it is in fact on an east-west orientation. The westernmost "gate" was narrow but the slopes leading down were easily surmountable, so that was unsuitable. Same for the easternmost gate. Leonidas chose to make his stand at the Middle Gate (where the Phocian wall had been erected, and near by the hot springs that give the place its name) because while wider, the mountain sides protecting his left flank were much more sheer and so more protective of his battle line.
The reaaon for depicting it this way was because it was the consensus from many top historians and would also seem to fit from the archeological remaims (though the topography has obviously changed.) The hoplites themselves didn't fight on the walls, but we know that there were a lot of light troops, and it definitely makes sense for them to be either behind it or on it throwing stones and javelins at the Persians! Now, not a siege as in the Persians were having to scale a wall with the whole Greek force on it. Id say that my map is not misleading, it specifically focuses on the thinnest part of the pass at 15m, shows that the sea level was much higher, and also gives a possible possition of the phocian wall, in the same orientation as it is on site, and how it was likely utilized by peltasts next to the fighting ground. The map also has no compass as to suggest i am saying it goes north to south because it would have looked rather odd if i twisted it sideways, so i decided to make the map as though you were stood at Thermopylae looking forward.
Hello, I said it already so sorry for repeating myself but I still feel its relevant to say it again: The quality of your content is steadily increasing and is becoming really good. I started following your channel with the Sparta re-examined series and felt like although the substance was great, the form was quite an obstacle for viewership, mainly the audio quality/video and sometimes the presentation. With this documentary, (which is exceptionnaly good), and even before, I am amazed as to what you have achieved (both in substance and in form). I hope you will carry on publishing such quality content and will surely recommend your channel to anyone interested in the topic.
If I may do a small suggestion, which I've seen mentionned before by someone else , I think it would be nice to include more textual cues (like, when you mention a name, battle or whatever, to for example have a little text displayed in the corner for a few seconds, it could be done in a non obtrusive way to still be present to help)
Greatings from Belgium.
@@Piloulegrand thank you so much! I did have some problems with the audio (mainly me forgetting to put the right mic on lol) and it is certainly more of a podcast/smaller viewer interest, however i like doing them because of the topics. I hope to make more videos like this! Appreciate your kind words
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History please don't hesitate to do again something like the Sparta re-examined series (or continue it), it's really really good.and informative. Even if the format is less "palatable", the content is such that I could listen to it for hours. I also have to say that you are a great moderator for those kind of discussions
The ancient "Greeks" as we call them today, primarily identified themselves by their city-state affiliation rather than as a unified group of Hellenes/"Greeks". For example, they would refer to themselves as Athenians, Spartans, or Corinthians, depending on their city-state. The term "Hellenes" (Ἕλληνες) was used to describe themselves collectively, but it was not as common in everyday use among the general population.
The concept of Hellenism grew over time, especially during the classical period, as a sense of shared language, culture, and religious practices began to emerge. The Panhellenic identity became more pronounced during events like the Olympic Games, which united various city-states and or when they went to war specifically and put aside their differences like what we see in the battle of Thermopylae and when they fought big wars against the Achaemenid empire, but many Hellenic city states and people allied with the Achaemenids during these battles also because i guess they were already at edge with them specifically Athens and Sparta. However, local identities remained strong, and many people primarily identified with their specific city-state or region rather than what you call them in this video as "Greeks", So why don't you refer to them as Hellenes at least which is historically accurate?
Youre correct, but please consider i am talking to a wide audience. "Ancient Greek hoplite" is a very clear and understood term. They were hoplites, who inhabited Greece, in the ancient times. Thats also not incorrect. Thats like saying you shouldnt say Roman age england as it wasn't called England then. This armour also isn't linked to any polis, though i have taken more sources from Laconian art and depictions. So I use "Ancient Greece" because ot is widely understood, and doesn't limit the presentation on a particular polis.
"Greeks" is how English translates "Έλληνες".
Maybe Herodotus lied? How come he is so trusted and not oral tradition? All because it is written down?
@@mutsuzawa because he is generally pretty reliable, and he is one of the only (nearly) contemporary sources for the Persian wars. The oral tradition of these stories dont really survive
Herodotus’s histories to some extent actually was basically a collection of oral traditions that he just wrote down. He would travel to different places, ask the people there about the history of events, and then record what they told him. There are many instances where different peoples gave him conflicting accounts of the same event, so he gives both versions and then weighs in which one he thinks is more likely and why.
@@Rickpat16 Histories should weight this and not so quickly dismiss legend. So, there were 300 Spartans.
🚬🗿👍
Very cool but i think you forgot the part where he said "this is sparta!" And kicked him down a well
Or maybe one of the reasons for sending 300 spartiates with 700 other spartans was that they wanted to send just the king, but the other greeks would probably wonder wtf is sparta doing sending only their king.
@@dannygo500 hmmm, not sure on that, no reason really for us to think that, as Roel breaks down on the documentary, its likely they just didnt want to fully commit, which is a common theme for Sparta. Again, if it was a suicide mission, then they sent almost a 10th of their full force, which is a huge number.
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History But why not send something like 100 spartiates and 400 other hoplites then?
@@dannygo500 we don't know for sure. Likely because they either believed they would be able to hold the pass, or because they simply didnt want to send more than what they did, but still wanted to contribute to the coalition
@@dannygo500 Possibly because 300 was the "traditional" number for the King's bodyguard? We'll never really know.
Awsome channel ! My question though is how did the sea recede like that in only a little over 2000 years ?
@@timothyfagiolo2364 thank you! Good question!! If im being quite honest im not 100% sure. This part of Greece has seen quite a lot of landform change through storms and landslides, but that only really explains why the pass itself is different. I believe there has been around a 3 meter drop in sea level since the time, so its possible that the ground was deeper and the sea filled it. But im not 100%, scientists just know it was once sea, and our sources mention it too!
@@LeonidasSparta-Fun-History In Italy, the once Ravenna's port is 3/4 km from what is the sea front, look on the map where is Sant Apollinare in classe( former port church and where is the city)... usa citizens never undertsnd how the europe and asia are old
Mainly silting from the nearby Sperchios river, but also landslides from Mt Kallidromos overlooking the pass.. The sea level was also perhaps 1-2m higher at the time.