Don't I know it! I was married to one, but I didn't know that was who he was until a year or so after the divorce. Narcissists are very good at hiding their psychopathology.
It's amazing how difficult it can be to recognize when one is being abused. I was in a psychologically abusive relationship, and I didn't recognize that he was a psychopath who was abusing me until about a month after I broke up with him. In fact, I felt guilty about breaking things off at first because he was very nice about it at first. I realize now that that was just an attempt to manipulate me.
The best thing about my having left the cult, is that I'm not so sin-focused now that I wake up daily hating myself. I can now love God and experience his true grace daily...."All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23. I'm a sinner, sure, we all fall short, I'm a human being....but I love myself more than ever.
If you want to believe in god then god is your higher self. The biblical god Yahweh is a nasty piece of man made fiction, with no moral scruples and dumber than a box of rocks.
@@heyodi3092 I woke up every single day thinking that I was horrible and unworthy and deserved the beatings I was getting. It's all so untrue. I am still a Christian, but I now understand grace.
I grew up in a Christian home and was homeschooled. So thankful that my parents encouraged us to seek things out for ourselves. Yes, they taught us about God, but they told us not to simply take their word it. We weren’t involved in IBLP or ATI. Homeschooling was great for our family. I graduated college with honors and am now in a counseling graduate program. It’s all about how the parents do it!
Ann Marie Could it be even remotely possible that Mr. Gothard didn't get married so he could devote more time to serving God? It really is quite ok to do that. "...He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife." (1 Corinthians 7:32-33) Also, there are plenty of people who don't have children that offer child-rearing advice to people with children. Just a point. You haven't addressed that.
@@shelton5927 Then he cannot give advice on a happy marriage if he isn't married and has no experience. I can only help a person through something and give advice by what I've personally lived. I could never give advice on war if I've never been in one, fighting. I can tell you what Ive read but one who asks about a certain issue would like to see someone whos been there and whos succeeded. It's ik not top be married and teach what the bible says but like I said people don't want advice from a person who hasn't been there done that.
@@shelton5927 He remained unmarried so that he could more freely sexually abuse young women. Perhaps his cult began as a way to try and help underprivliged youth but as the years went on he tailored his teachings more and more to give himself power and control. Most cult leaders end up building themselves up to powerful positions so that they can engage in sexual abuse of their followers more easily, Gothard is no exception. Warren Jeffs of the FLDS mormon cult sexually abused women and girls (even his own daughters), Samuel Mullet Sr. of the Amish also did it, Charles Manson did it, David Berg of "The Family" /"The Children of God" did it, cult leaders ultimatley create cults so they can take advantage of people. Usually they use their male followers for money and sexually abuse the women and children. Stop defending a rapist/cult leader/ all around monster passing himself off as human. It's disgusting that he's been able to live into his 80's.
@@spydersmom1 You think there is no knowledge apart from personal experience. This is not even close to true. If you can't learn by observing others in the first decade of life, it is almost certain that no amount of experience will change that. The basic principle of how to raise kids is seeing how they view life. If you can't get that by the time you finish high school then you'll never get it. I lived next door to someone who had four kids and obviously never had a clue. Experience never teaches those who refuse to learn
@@foolishdrunk2181 I should Rephrase my answer.. If there is someone that comes to me and ask me, what have you learned in your marriage that is good and that is bad? I could tell them my experience. If someone comes to me and says what should I know about marriage? If I have never been married then I can only say, I can tell you what I've seen and what I've witnessed but I cannot give you my personal opinion or experience. Of course it is different when you have children I did grow up with many nieces and nephews whom I babysat and I had that kind of experience but I had no experience in being a mother. So I had to learn as I went the only experience I could say I had is watching my own mom and living with her teaching me. I never had any experience in grooming animals and I taught myself. But I could never ask somebody who has never groomed a dog, How can I groom a dog? They can tell me what they've witnessed or seen, they cannot give me personal examples.
My wife and I and our kids were part of Bill Gothard's program back in the nineties. We never went all in, but we were far enough in to be damaged by some of the main ideas, which were based on twisting the Bible. Funny thing is that Gothard taught you should never let your kids sleep over at someone else's house, but you were supposed to send them to live and work under his care. Right. So look what happened... they had some spiffy looking materials and books... We spent hundreds on them, thousands on attending SEMINARS. Your perspective and even handed approach are commendable. Thanks for including this.
We never went all in ? seriously God gives you discernment I found many things that Bill said which made me go back and question the scripture , Bill was no theologian , he simply drew principles from the scripture, God expects you to know scripture well enough to make sure the word is not being twisted after all it was Eve who listened the the first distorted message " did God say " , where is your discernment , Even Bill taught we should learn discernment. if you had really listened to any of his material you would have heard that , you are typical of those that get some benefit but turn like ravenous wolves on this humble servant , just remember as you have attacked Bill , your family will experience the same fruit , When we return evil for good , evil will never depart our homes. I will be praying that this will not happen
@@wawabbit I don't know how familiar you are with these seminars, but when enrolled in this program, families were expected to attend a yearly, week-long convention which was held in Knoxville, Tennessee. People traveled from all over the place to attend, and you had to pay for food, gas/travel, hotels, and purchase any new or updated materials as well. My family alone had 6 people. I'll let you do the math on how much money that would add up to for even 1 of these trips, much less years of them; and many of these families (if not most) had upwards of 10 members, because birth control was strongly advised against. And yes, we should be Biblically literate and, sadly, most professing believers have never even read their own Book from start to finish, much less studied it daily. But if I'm being completely honest, the people I met in that program were easily some of the most Biblically literate folks I've ever known. We read the Bible morning, noon and night, and a lot of the teaching was perfectly fine in moderation. But Bill was a fraud and wolf in sheep's clothing, and he abused his own system and broke his own teachings behind closed doors because he was a deviant and sexual predator. So Darren's comment was not only sanctimonious and self-serving, but unnecessarily accusatory, and just plain wrong. Blaming the victim for realizing they were being victimized and repenting of their error in judgement is exactly the opposite of what the Bible teaches us to do, so the irony of his own words is rather astounding.
Chris, it's me again... :) I'm well on my way to a masters in family therapy....tonight's posting assignment was on how to help victims of DV and sexual abuse. I used your initial interview with Kristian to answer the question of "what is the clergy doing on this important issue?"...ooooohhhhh boy......I was all set with my critique of Mike Pearl and Bill Gothard! I got a 105%!!!! Thanks! As a woman who no longer "quivers", I'm 105% behind you guys!
It genuinely angers me the Duggars still try to pretend they have no connection to this cult. They literally showed them attending the ATI homeschool conference, complete with a giant "ATI bound!!!" banner on their RV, in one of their early TV specials. They even used to have links to Quiverful/IBLP stuff on their site, but it's been scrubbed clean since they got the TLC gig. They are total and complete LIARS.
Carter Pewterschmidt I didn't know they tries to hide it. They used to attent my church. We were very ATI. I was confused why we were celebrating them since they were cooperating with the "one eyed monster" (the tv.)
Carter Pewterschmidt They are sick people. Sick. I can't believe I was ever inclined to defend them. I mean, I know why - I'm right-wing, and virtually everybody attacking them is left-wing - but I should have known better. I already know there are plenty of things both sides can agree on, but many on both sides don't realize this because we don't listen to each other.
I started reading "i fired god" by jocelyn zitcherman a couple years ago and i was absolutely HORRIFIED at how many of those controlling, and brainwashing techniques were used in my church and the home i grew up in. i appreciate people exposing this without being malicious.
Agreed! I was thinking this before I read the comments. Kristiana should be brought on as your permanent co-host or have a duo show or she can have her own? She is great. She's honest, truthful, articulate, compassionate and her voice is calming and easily understood. She just seems to reach through the medium of a little screen and make you pay attention/listen and understand with what seems like effortlessness. You guy's do great work...such great work...thank you both so, so much! Keep it! I grew up similarly.
These videos are so interesting and I wish every Duggar fan would watch. It is so good to see Kristiana again and am so happy she is free. More details ? Yes please.
Anne Montgomery I was wondering how Kristiana was doing. I saw the video where she shared her story of growing up in that crazy abusive IBLP cult. She is a brave woman.
Yes I was wondering how Christina was getting along too. Rocking that super short hair. Bespite having very little choice in the matter, she is a very strong individual. I am so glad she has survived this cult and is helping to expose how evil it is.
@N Avery Birth control works by preventing ovulation or preventing implantation of the egg in the uterine wall. The second form is what people like the Duggars would claim is "abortion" but that would occur before the woman even knows she is pregnant, even if she took a pregnancy test, it is too early at that point. Michelle had a miscarriage and was looking for someone/something to blame. There isn't any evidence that her miscarriage was caused by contraception. In any case, if that was truly the problem they could use NFP or barrier methods. Instead they went off the rails and had 19 kids and taught them it is wrong to use any form of contraception, even if the woman's health is suffering. They also don't allow the women enough freedom or education to be able to leave if their husband is abusive or a cheat. They brainwashed Anna to believing that she couldn't divorce Josh even when he was caught cheating-- heck from what she says she's apparently brainwashed into believing it's her fault he cheated, because she wasn't always "available" to him physically. Even if she hadn't been brainwashed into believing she had to stay, she doesn't have the education or means to support herself and her kids. The way the put women in bondage to their husbands and threaten that they won't go to heaven if they don't submit to their husbands, even when the husband cheats or is abusive, they are no better than the FLDS.
Chris and Kristiana -- thanks so much for doing this. I've been looking forward to it ever since Chris mentioned the two of you would be presenting something together. I was a fundie long, long ago and attended one of Gothard's huge seminars in the mid-70s. It sounded so little like the Christianity I thought I knew, particularly when Gothard instructed abused wives to "thank God for the beating." So glad you got out, Kristiana, and are able to do this important work. Since this movement is portrayed as cute and sweet on television, the more people know, the better -- so more videos, please!
@@ChrisSheltonMsc Well... the Pearls have a bit of a twist on it. We were in ATI for over 11 years and it was "in us" for many more - unfortunately. The Pearls are a combo of totalitarian, IFB, ATI, child abuse. Oh my goodness - the appeal and the abused wife - wow. That is the truth!! "God is letting you go through (whatever it is)" I was never abused but SO believed that God was behind whatever I was treated like. Debbie Pearl is a nut. Thank you, Chris, for shining the light of truth. I have enjoyed many of your videos.
P & J Fetts Institutional child and spousal abuse. I’m glad you made it out. Never get involved with anyone who asks you if you can be submissive. It’s a dead giveaway.
I am a Christian. I love God and Jesus. I believe in the Holy Spirit. I do my best every single day to show the love of Jesus to people. With that said, I hate to see Christianity being used in an abusive way. Religion gets weapon used a lot, and it’s very sad because it makes people turn away from Christianity and Jesus, rather than turning towards it.
Kristiana Miner you are incredible, strong and beautiful in the face of extreme patriarchy and oppression. Thank you for teaching us more about the Gothard cult Chris. You are always so smart, well researched and sincere. Keep them coming!
This is one of the best videos on the Bill Gothard and the IBLP that I've seen, I've actually watched it three times. Thank you so much for speaking up for these victims and bringing his crimes to light. I have shared your video on facebook, and I've also shared you interview with Kristiana.
I still miss Jim Bob and Shell, and my girls miss their girls...but when we left the movement after being shunned (all because we dared take a stand for the abuse of our little grandbabies who were being neglected and beaten with rods), Shell and Jim Bob cut us off. I think that is very telling.
You are incredibly brave. You made the choice to risk losing all of your friends and family for the sake of your grandchildren. That's an amazing sacrifice. I hope your grandchildren are no longer associated with IBLP. You have my admiration and I wish you nothing but the best.
WynnKidsNanny LoriVance Hi Lori. I agree with the other commenters here...you are incredibly BRAVE... and I thank you for sharing this very personal experience. The word that comes to mind.... HORRIFIC. I am SO VERY SORRY that these people even TRIED to physically assault your grandbabies!! DISGUSTING and they need to be in jail. May Jesus bless you and your family Always. Rachel in Nashville :)
Wow Kristiana! You've done it again! Not only have you exposed the truth that this organization is a house divided unto itself,but have literally been a watchman on the walls for every Christian and non-Christian alike. Your testimonials have been nothing short of inspiring and I would go so far as to say miraculous in that God is using you to separate the wheat from the chaff and your acute analysis of this cult is nothing short of the truth,the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And may God be with you as you take this ministry of healing to the four corners of the earth and beyond. May God richly bless you and yours all the days of your life and may this message be received by all you come into contact with.
Thank you for sharing this. We were sucked into this as a newly married couple. We wanted to share what we had learned with other friends who couldn't afford to go. However, was extremely disappointed and almost angered that on the first day, we had to sign a paper saying we would NOT share anything we learned at the conference, and that we would NEVER allow anyone to see the book of "wisdom" he had given to those who attended. Praise God, His salvation is FREE TO ALL! That was our first and last encounter.
Chris, this kind of content I why I love your channel. You cover issues that don't get mainstream coverage in amazing depth and shine a light on abuse. Keep up the amazing work! :)
IBLP claim to have presented their seminars to over two million people since the 1960's. IBLP alumni are spread through out the Christian Church it is not a denomination in and of itself. Bill Gothard is no longer head of IBLP He was forced to step down due to sexual harassment allegations where legal proceedings are ongoing. IBLP is essentially Bill Gothard and its teachings are essentially Bill Gothard's personal beliefs. As you have pointed out there are similarities between IBLP and Scientology but there are also links similarities with Mormonism and mysticism as well. It is a dangerous cult. Bill Gothard can be summed up in two words PROJECTION and defelction. Every teaching Gothard presents is an attempt to project his view of the world on others that includes his own sins. Every attempt to confront Gothard about his teachings and practices have been headed off by his insistence that they meet in a setting of his choosing on his terms even though he will present himself as a humble little man. Don't be fooled by his false humility the guy is a control freak who undertakes to discredit anyone who challenges him. Finally when challenged Gothard will claim he wasn't approached in the right way basically dismissing all and any charges against him. Bill has no conscience about his past or his teachings, so as soon as he was stood down by IBLP he began a new venture called power prayer teams or something to that effect that ha the same old message as IBLP with the same hollow promise of assured success. IBLP has been an abject failure in terms of actually improving lives in a meaningful way it has bound and crippled thousands of souls and keeps in bondage many thousands more. I have personally seen it destroy a number of lives and I know some who are still under its curse. Sorry Chris I am not as forgiving as you I don't think there is anything beneficial in IBLP as it twists out of context nearly every verse in the bible that it uses. If Gothard could he would do the same damage if not more with Scientology or any other self improvement/religious belief system he got his hands on because it's really not about the beliefs it's about Bill Gothard and only Bill Gothard.
Chris Symonds I doubt anyone reading this comment is fooled by old Bill. I also don't think Chris is forgiving of him. He's probably biting his tongue publicly out of decorum and decency, but he's made clear how little he thinks of his teachings, and how dangerous they are. I personally think he's just another psychopath. Though not as dangerous as Scientology, if not for any other reason than not having the resources and power they have. And I'm not aware of him sending private investigators after people, putting up hate websites, or trying to get people fired from their jobs. Scientology [David Misgavaige] does seem to go a step above, even compared to your average psychopath who's not always as vindictive.
The best lies are a distortion of the truth. He takes scripture and twists it into something that it's not. Using our faith against us is the most painful and difficult to recover from abuse. I had to drop everything I was ever taught about Christianity in order to rediscover it through the Holy Spirit and NOT religion, and I finally found peace and love and acceptance and hope, instead of anxiety and fear and self-doubt and deception and shame and isolation. And it came through a personal discovery and revelation with my personal walk with Jesus, and not a bunch of rules and dogma and a pecking order of a perfect life dictated to me by someone else.
Bill Gothard and his malicious ideology has destroyed so many lives. The Pearl's and Gothard need to rot in hell for destroying so many lives and promoting domestic violence. Great video Chris and Kristiana for speaking out about this. If you are in a violent relationship get yourself and your kids out of there. Get help (press charges, go to a shelter, seek psychological support services). Please get out of this it's not worth risking your physical and psychological health for a system that represses women and children.
I do not think there should be any limits of prosecution on abuse and molestation. The victims have to deal with the consequences for the rest of their lives so why should the perpetrators get off Scott free to keep doing it. Like Josh Duggar. His behavior is despicable and if I was his wife Anna I would not let him near me or my children. Who knows, those little babies of theirs could be next.
Ascary Navarro - I totally understand your thinking. I was abused my whole childhood. My stepfather the main perp never got in trouble because it was too late. 30+ yrs later he still creeps me out if I catch him staring at me but I just do it right back to let him know he doesn't scare me anymore.
Ms. Grumpy thanks and I'm sorry of what had happened and it is sickening and awful. These people like Gothard and Duggar who make me want to vomit blood (forgive my language) don't get the punishment that they deserve. These survivors don't deserve the injustice that they are living through. You have my full support
Ascarry Navarro, I despise Bill Gothard and the Pearls, too, as well as Voddie Baucham, R.C. Sproul Jr., Larry Solomon and Doug Phillips. Midwest Christian Outreach Ministry, on the other hand, is run by conservative christians with their their heads on straight. That ministry exposes legalistic cults, movements, and teachers.
I’m a Christian. This is insane, and it is so sad to see how someone can take the Word of God twist it and lead so many astray. The saddest part is to see people reject the Bible and the one true God because of how this man has claimed the things he has.
so do u think u understand the so called holy book? what proof do u have that, that insane book even came from god? seriously.........how do u know? U DO NOT KNOW WHERE THE BIBLE CAME FROM!!!!!!!!!!!! IT COULD BE FROM SATAN!!!!!!!! THE BIBLE IS JUST A BOOK!!!!!!!!
I’m so sorry Kaytie you had to endure this! We were introduced to it in the 80’s and some of our friends got sucked into it hook line and sinker! They both had a deep father wound and when someone comes along like Bill Gothard it’s music to their souls! Only our Heavenly Father deserves to take that spot!! They are still dabbling in it with their youngest but all of their older children are out of there living life the way they want to and struggling to make sense out of it all. I will pray that God will heal your heart and show you his abundant grace poured out every day for you!!!! Jesus paid for it all!
I know I'm a but late to seeing this, but I'm so glad you were able to get away from this horrible cult and I'm so sorry you had to go through that.🖤 Abuse is not okay. Whether it's from someone who you thought was a friend, someone you love or your family/parents; it's never okay. The people who try to stand up for it and excuse it are evil and belong in jail.
My sister went to a a Gothard youth conference decades ago. And somehow our family ended up with a Character Sketches family study book that sat on our shelf for over 40 years, never used. I inherited many of my dad's books. Just this week I looked through the Character Sketches book wondering why Daddy never used it. On the very first page was a statement "God gave man a marvelous intellect with one limitation - he is not to use it to learn the details of evil (Romans 16:19) Today's pseudo intellectuals are vigorously trying to defend their 'right' to use their mind to study all the details of evil so that 'Ye shall be as gods knowing good and evil.' (Genesis 3:5) God never intended that we learn evil with our mind or by experience but rather with our spirit. (1 John 4:1)" Wow! So much to unpack. No wonder my dad never opened this book with our family. Taking three verses out of context to get followers to NOT examine truth - right from page one!
My husband said that maybe it means not dwelling on evil, like downloading p*rn so you know how bad it is. Hmm. Maybe. I will say that I discovered that one of the featured character traits was initiative and he used the story of Abigail, David, and Nabal and how she used initiative to go against what her husband said in order to do the better thing for David. Hmm. That doesn't sound very patriarchal. Maybe Gothard’s teachings changed over time? This book was published in 1976.
I was raised Southern Baptist and our church was definitely influenced by IBLP. I was homeschooled but not by ATIA Luckily, my parents weren't as into it as some of the others but I saw so many women treated like dirt by their husbands. So many were having tons of kids they couldn't afford. We weren't allowed to wear shorts unless they came past our knees and when we went to camp girls had to wear a one piece and there was no "mixed swimming" allowed. I never thought about college until I was about to turn 18 and someone at church asked me about it. I always thought I was just supposed to get married. There was also no dating allowed only "courting". I'm glad I got away from that madness when I was 19. I've sometimes wondered how my life would have been if I had stayed. Not very happy I'm sure.
Angel Ella I was raised Southern Baptist also from the time I was born till I stopped going to church about 18. When I was in the church (60's-70's) there weren't restrictions like you've mentioned. The SBC was a pretty moderate religion. Our youth group was fun, we did all kinds of activities. Like going to camp, there was no separate swim coed boys and girls together. (we did have to wear one piece bathing suits) We would have what was called a lock-in, we would be lock in the church and have food and games. Clothing? as long it wasn't immodest (like short shorts or halter tops.) we wore what we wanted. Dating? we were allowed to date, I had lots of boyfriends. I'm sorry to hear that the religion of my childhood has taken such right turn in controlling their people
@@batgurlaqua I was raised Southern Baptist in the 2000s and my church was similar to how you described. I didn't end up staying in that church because I didn't agree with some of the beliefs, but they weren't cultish and didn't have all those crazy rules, and I never heard of Bill Gothard the entire time I attended. I guess it really just depends on each individual church and the pastor who's running it.
Bill Gothard never advocated treating women like dirt , that was part of the mindset of the men who never really listened to the Calling of God on how to treat their wives , and as for lots of kids God calls us to have large families and raise them as Godly , you have a problem with that take it up with God
Thanks for this video. Had it on in the background, at first while I was doing some personal admin. But, halfway through I was just staring at the screen unable to do anything else because I couldn't believe what I was hearing. You both came across as very professional and it's obvious that you have done a lot of research. Nice to see the balance in this video Chris, of having a female co-presenter. And, how genuine and moving she comes across when talking about what happened to those children.
I'll add my voice to the chorus here and say you did a remarkable job, Chris and Kristiana! Excellent video! If you made more videos on this topic, I'd certainly watch them!
Thanks for making these videos about Gothard. His teachings have been pervasive and destructive in my own life. Videos like these and the recovering grace site are so validating and help me process.
VERY good job, both of you! Chris, it's this 'paralleling' - comparing different high-control groups - that is one of your most powerful tools for showing people what makes a destructive cult destructive. Bravo!
Thanks for presenting this information. Although my family was never involved in the IBLP courses and lifestyle, it was certainly held in high regard when I was growing up (70s/80s). I knew at least one family who used their materials. Some of the practices seemed strict even from a conservative Christian perspective, but it was all presented as being for the best intentions. I hope this shows Christian believers how to avoid being led astray by corrupt teachers who want to use God's word for their own purposes. Also, people who are not Christians should realize that what they see as evil in this organization is not what Jesus taught us in regards to children and "the least of those" in society.
@@ffluvssg1 you have to ask your self was what he was saying from the bible, the answer YES did he go deeper into it NO, you seem to have an issue with Gods word, not Bill Gothard tell me are you truly saved, I mean Born again, if so then you would know what he had to say was from the bible but you sound more like a religious person who goes to church for the sake of your religion, you are really lost in your sin and headed for hell that should worry you more than Bill Gothard being in it for money as you allege
@@C-right Aw, that's nice of you to try and diagnose my spirituality. :-) If you want to look at "fruit" of someone's ministry, I suggest you search for more testimonials from people who left the IBLP teachings Bill Gothard promoted, and the damage they did. It's easy to say they were never following Jesus, they had incomplete or incorrect understanding, etc. but true evidence of the Holy Spirit would be that the abuses would be identified and stopped much sooner. Eliminate the sin from your camp!
I honestly did not know this was or had been going on. 7yrs of my life 91-96 consisted of everything Gothard, fortunately, my parents corrected the course and my family left that organization.
I found this video very informative. After watching interviews with Jinger Duggar Vuolo speaking out against this, it piqued my interest in what she had actually been taught. I can't wait to read her book, Becoming Free Indeed, Disentangling Faith from Fear. For those who ridicule IBLP/ATI members, especially the Duggars, please remember that the children who grew up under this instruction were victims. How can they be blamed for the way their parents raised them; this being the only the only lifestyle they knew? Compassion goes a long way. I pray that as these victims grow into adults, the Lord exposes and reveals the truth between Gothard's 'principles' and the true gospel and word of God.
This was a great follow up to first interview with Kristiana Miner. I really enjoyed her story in the first interview video and this video is equally informative about IBPL. Thank you so much for making this video.
After you mentioned Bill Gothard. Then and his teachings, I exhausted myself about everything I could find about him and his teachings. Then I listened to this video entirely. I saw parallels of these teachings with Communism and National Socialism. Gothard's failure seems to be in not noticing his own limitations. And then working to overcome them toward more abundant living. If your limitations are your enemy, recognize the enemy and then do something about it. The answers are within.
I started attending the Basic Youth Conflicts Seminar with my family when I was in 7th grade, and it resulted in a highly legalistic, harsh family life for me and my brother. Each of us were subjected to severe ass-beatings for even the smallest offenses.
That is child abuse. That is not what Jesus intends for us. In the Catholic schools we had nuns. Many of them were horribly mean to us as school children and caused a lot of Catholics to fall away from the church as adults. It took a lot of healing. I actually confided in a dear priest friend as an adult and he apologized to me on behalf of all the abuse those women caused. I gotta tell you, that apology gave me such spiritual healing. Long story short, God still sits on the throne and when things go wrong, He cleans House! You won’t find those things happening in classrooms now.
Yes! I totally agree on the similarities and control patterns of both groups. I have always thought that and every thing coming out in recent years just validates it. Thank you!
Victim-blaming in a nutshell: "There's no excuse for making a person feel guilty, when *they're* the one that has been wronged or harmed." Great video, as always. I started researching cults from some sort of fascination, "what are some of the 'crazy' things people believe"-way, but now I just think of how helpful learning about destructive cults, their actions and the mechanisms they use to break and control people. A few weeks ago, a friend confessed to me about her recently-ended, 5-year abusive relationship with an acquaintance. She started in a position of blaming herself, of not being strong enough... but when I started talking about the destructive cults I'd researched, their ways of control, and the (very real) idea that "no one joins a cult", she started thinking about her situation recently. In one of your podcasts with an exit councelor (her name escapes me right now), she also says how the strategies for helping people get out of cults and helping addicts recover are similar. I deeply believe that knowledge of destructive cults and how they operate can empower people stuck in situations of abuse. Since the situation with my friend, I've been researching for an article/presentation where I'll make the case for just that. Your videos have helped me a lot understand some concepts, and present me with excellent ways of explaining others (like the definition above.) Please keep making them!
This is such a great point!!! I totally agree and while watching the presentation then reading the comments, I came to the realization that you expressed so clearly, quote, "knowledge of destructive cults and how they operate can empower people stuck in situations of abuse" which is so compelling in my opinion. Over the last couple of years I have come to realize and have started to understand the psychological damage that has occurred in my family as a result of multiple narcissists vying for control. As difficult as it is to experience that realization, then admit to yourself that it is true and the destruction of the "facade" you believed in, the TRUTH is the only way to begin to heal and move forward.
The Duggars always said some things that made me think ‘are they a cult?’ I really didn’t even think that they were watering shit down. Like, they shame women in public for wearing regular clothes. They say a ‘code word’ or something and cover their eyes. Like, this is what they admit! They go right into engagement before they even date (they call it courting), and the parents organize that, like ‘my kid should marry yours. I’ll get him to propose when they finally meet in person.’ The Duggars once said something about ‘we prefer for our kids to be 18 when they get married,’ like there is an epidemic of teen marriage. It’s not even legal in most states!
I can't say enough good things about this video, Chris. This is important work you are doing and it's clear you genuinely care. Kristiana Miner is lovely and compelling; I do hope you will will work together again in the future. People like Bill Gothard and institutions like IBLP *need* to be exposed for their hypocrisy and cruelty. Please pass on my deep respect and thanks to Kristiana.
I can't get over how SIMILAR this is to Scientology. This is spooky. EDIT: Kristiana, having gone through something similar, I related to how choked up you got just describing the sexual abuse and the victim blaming. It's easy to see how you relate to this as well. It's in your heart and spirit coming through.
Thank you so so much for covering this. I was raised in a breakoff sect of the IFBC and have cousins in the Gothard belief as well. Thankful to have come away from it, but still struggle with finding a foundation spiritually because of it.
I attended the basic youth conflict seminar. It help build my self esteem. It really has changed a lot. The seven conflicts are not the same as the seven principles. There were not so many rules and women were more respected in the beginning.
Abuse is just a failed attempt at murder. Men aren't allowed to even try to murder their wives or children, so abusing people is sin on the part of the perpetrator, not the victim.
I'm worried about Mike Pence being one heartbeat (or impeachment) away from the most powerful office in the country. Does he have any connection to this extreme authoritarian group?
I have been worried about that since the day they announced Pence was running. I have a really hard time deciding who the lesser of two evils actually is. I am sure you understand what I mean by that, so I wont take up anyone's time by opening that, (politics), can of worms here. Every single time I see him, I have such a feeling of foreboding and I wonder if researching further would help me or make it worse, so I tell myself that in this situation, maybe ignorance really is bliss???? There was an eye opening, very well written article that I read last year but unfortunately I don't remember the details to share with you how to find it. It was a young lady who grew up in the IBLP movement and went on to discuss her opinions, in that context, of Mike Pence AND Education Sect. Betsy DeVos. I can not remember if it was discussed in the article or not but any discussion about Pence and DeVos in that context, needs to include Sect. DeVos's brother Erik Prince, the founder of Blackwater. Google blackwater/erik prince because I could not begin to explain the gravity of his access or the true involvement within the current administration. Even though he does not hold a cabinet position, he has access and has been portrayed as an "adviser" as well as NOT being an adviser... I'll refrain from sharing any further assumptions or opinions about him. Needless to say, we are in a very precarious position and I am very fearful of what may or may not happen in the future.
I am so saddened by this. Thank you for making this video. My heart is heavy. I have my own dealings with cults and remember well the depression I couldn’t put my finger on and the anxiety that stalked my every step. I hope the survivors are okay.
Kristiana, just wanted to say I LOVE YOUR HAIR! I'm glad you cut it off, you're adorable. (I know that's off topic, but wanted to share). I think it's a sign of your liberation.
I had forgotten all about Bill Gothard. I attended the Basic Life Principles Seminar in New Zealand about 25-30 years ago. I recognised that he was of the deeply conservative Christian right in the US and as such had some pretty silly views on some issues. But those who embraced the teachings believed they were being more holy, more devoted to God, more spiritual than those who didn't embrace them and who questioned the varacity of some of his teaching. The church I attended at the time had a number of these beliefs about submission to leadership and not questioning authority. It had a massive effect on the way women were viewed and their roles. Single women in our church were treated like great stumbling blocks to the godly single young men in the church as though we were harlots. It was disgraceful. It has been very interesting to stumble across this talk and review again how destructive the teachings I was subjected to and the continuing effect it's had on my view of myself as a woman and my ability to have a mutually respectful relationship. It really pisses me off.
If anyone has questions about ATI/IBLP not on the video, I don’t mind sharing what I can from my perspective and experiences. Also for anyone who needs help in any way , there is an amazing foundation that helps those specifically from the cult.
Chris Shelton I appreciate you doing such intensive looks into this sex cult. I feel like it’s definitely not well known outside of the circle, despite being fairly large. It’s so damaging, and in my eyes especially to women. Your worth is tied up in the quality of your womb. I don’t know if your staying up to date on the news, but Goth-terd had quite the run in this past big sandy. The board called the cops on him even. But ive heard some whispers that they may be letting him back in at some level and it’s causing a massive internal rift since there’s two camps. Interesting stuff.
I was raised in quiverfull/vision forum teachings, which are results of gothardism. I’d love to see more videos and maybe one on Doug Phillips and vision forum and their involvement with the IBLP.
Been under his teachings....it empowered my husband to tighten this narcissistic grip on me... Kept me 43 years (and six kids )in an abusive marriage....
Well, you nailed it well before Happy Shiny People, kudos for that part. All cults follow the same formula over the centuries, and it works time and time again. Now, how do you raise a child to become cult-proof? How can an adult become cult-proof? And thank you for tweeting this to me,
You bet. The best answer I have is education and instilling the discipline to use it with critical thinking training and learning about emotional intelligence.
Tell your children to run far away if anyone tells them: they have all the answers, you must respect their authority absolutely, you must distance yourself from anyone not in the group, if they shun or threaten members for leaving. Legit organizations are not threatened by critical thinking, member questions or contact with outsiders.
I grew up in Fargo ND. When I was around 8 y/o, I asked our Pastor(John Elverum) how would I know if my faith is actually MY faith & I'm not just copying what my family believes. To his credit, instead of a throw-off answer like "just do what your parents do", Pastor John said, "I suppose the best answer is to tell you to study & read about ALL faiths. Find out what they believe & why. Then, listen to your heart. You'll know what your faith is or isn't when you have the feeling that a faith really feels right to you." Pretty daring statement to make to an 8 y/o in 1969, wasn't it? But, to his credit, he was absolutely right. And, I still say a thank-you prayer to Pastor John quite often! Now I'm 57 y/o & I've had a life-long hobby of studying religions, sects & cults. It's fascinating & NEVER boring! Thank you Pastor John! YOU were & are a true disciple of Jesus Christ. And to your great credit, you took a question by a little girl seriously. And, I've never forgotten that. I only wish ALL kids had someone like you they could go too to ask those types of questions.
I am so glad I finally watched this video. Actually, it came on due to my auto play following another video. I always thought by the title that this was a “pro” Bill Gothard story because it asks about Heaven. Whew😅, was I wrong thank goodness. I am a concerned Christian Catholic and the direction that many of these fundamental cult like religions are taking is frightening. Thank you for this well thought out, educational insight into the reality of one of what I consider a society woe.
This is an extremely well put together video with very important points made...everything is covered here. Very eye opening, very disturbing. Thank you for making this video to educate the public of this issue.
I was in a church where the pastor had been working for years in the local "Youth For Christ" organization. While there he began to come under the influence of Bill Gothard and the Institute's teachings. He believed at that time, (1977 -1980) that they would help christian families stay close to God. But he, himself was not teaching the extreme "shepherding" aspects. And after taking over a small Pentecostal church, he influenced many of the newly saved youth and young families in the congregation to attend the Institute. After a time, as the church grew one of these youth s became his assistant pastor. When the older pastor was found to have had an affair with a woman in the church, the younger pastor worked behind the scenes, with other leaders of the church , to have him removed. The pastor was not allowed to undergo a normal counseling and reconcilliation process, but his ministry was destroyed. The young pastor commenced too changing the church into one wholly ruled by Gothard's teaching. Including the "Quiverfull" movement. My wife and i labored to change the direction of the church but were constantly harassed by the leadership. At the time I had graduated with an MDiv. and had been ordained and i knew that what was happening was not right. But i was publicly humiliated for my beliefs. My wife and I left after battling the teachings for over a year. When we landed in an open loving congregation for the first time we cried. We did not realize how much the cult had affected us even though we were fighting it. I was traumatized by the experience, unable to separated myself from feelings of guilt and was never able to have a church of my own.. although I have joyfully worked in the same loving congregation in many supporting roles for 30 years. As far as i know, the church we left still practices Gothard's teachings..
In the early 1980s a friend of mine took me to a weekend Gothard seminar in Atlanta. I had no idea what to expect, but was very upset when the statement was made that music with a beat was the devil's music. As the day went on, and they further explained their beliefs, I went from upset to horrified. I sat there for the rest of the day out of courtesy to my friend, but did not return on Sunday. Forty years later, I realize this was one of several brief encounters with cults in my life. If you get the feeling that you are falling into a spider web, you probably are. Get away as quickly as possible, and don't look back. Thanks, Chris
I feel so sorry for Anna Duggar, Josh Duggar’s wife. Not only did she have to endure being lied to and cheated on by her husband, she has also had to stay with him and keep having more babies, now on number six! This is abuse!
I think of Anna, too. What upsets me along with all you mentioned is that she was probably made to feel that she was responsible for all of her husband's failures.
I agree. I think that is part of it. These women feel like they aren't allowed to say no to men sexually and if the men stray, then they weren’t enough of whatever. Women aren't a series of holes for a man and you don’t have to do anything, ever. That makes me so mad! I do think this is way beyond just a Christian faith. I think they are in deep in a cult. All she has done is try harder and have more children. I wish I could help her.
philbyification, not all of them are dumb as dirt though. The problem doesn't lay in the level of their intelligence but rather in his ability to play into and manipulate fears and emotions. That is the reason people who are highly intelligent can even be duped into joining cults. All you have to do is be able to read into a person's fears, doubts, and emotional state and then assess the kind of charismatic manipulation they will respond to most readily. After you have done that, apply a combination of negative spin doctoring to what ever you want to demonize and positive spin doctoring to what ever tripe you are selling and bam, you have a cult. That or a self help guru. So in other words, they aren't stupid. They just crave things that everyone does, and those things are love, acceptance, and a way to make it from one day to the next. They just ran into bad information on how to get those things.
philbyification - I believe the correct word you should have used is "ignorant" not dumb, which literally means, not able to speak, WHICH as I am typing this it occurs to me that "dumb" followers just might be another "useful" result that Gothard was trying to achieve in addition to "ignorance". The followers are purposely and pathologically kept ignorant, to prevent questioning. In almost every story I have read or watched, about pretty much any cult, survivors ultimately began their journey to escape because of "knowledge" of the truth, no matter how minute the nugget of truth may be, something piqued their interest and their desire for answers outweighed their fear of reprisal, EVEN THOUGH they have been taught that even thoughts can be sins and must be controlled.
My mother attended a Basic Youth Conflicts seminar in 1974 in the Coliseum in Oakland California. She claims that she was born again at that time. I was two years old. She went on to be an abusive and controlling woman and it was a nightmare of a childhood. I had no idea that she was in a cult. This all makes a lot of sense. She was such a nightmare that I can barely refer to her as my mom. One of the things that she said all my life was that if I did not honor my mother, which she would use as obey her, then I would die young. It really put me off Christianity all of my life until I later found Jesus as an adult. Now, I am learning to follow the Holy Spirit rather than a ministry. I thought as a child that of this was Christianity, then I had no desire to be a part of it. While I forgive my mother, she has not changed.
It's clear to me that several people commenting recently either didn't watch the whole thing, didn't read comments from other posters and the answers they received to the same questions they are asking, or didn't listen to the information in the film/completely missed the point. UGH!!! People, if you are going to comment, watch the whole thing before you do so that you can present at least a little bit of logic in your comment. I mean REALLY.
Starting around 2005-6, he started the "power of one accord." I spent 3 years in one of his programs and was told that I broke the power of one accord and that God was going to stop blessing the group unless I was removed. It defiantly fucked with me mentally.
This was incredibly interesting. I have never been part of Bill Gothard's organization, but I've dealt with aspects of it from the outside. None of it was positive. I'm a Conservative Christian (my own grandmother thought I was too conservative!) but the Gothard people I have met considered me to be liberal and worldly. Before I got married, I lived on my own and had a small house. I was told by Gothard's people that I was sinning by not living with my parents until I married. I asked them to show me from the Bible how it was a sin for a single woman to live on her own, and they said, "Rachel and Leah didn't go off and get an apartment. They lived with their father until they married Jacob." WHAT??? They used a dysfunctional, deceptive, polygamous family as an example? This showed me that they didn't even know how to read the Bible. They took the events and culture of the Bible as commands. There are commands in scripture, but nowhere are we told to pattern our lives after the events in the Bible. We don't go build an ark like Noah! We don't lower people out of cities in a basket like Paul. We are to have a relationship with God, and He guides us. We don't just copy things in the Bible that were never intended as commands. I was also told by a Gothard person that women don't need to know math! That deeply offends me. I'm no feminist--not by a long shot, but I think men and women need and should have the same education. Between my husband and myself, I'm more mathematically-inclined, and I balance the checkbook, etc. I actually enjoy it. My husband enjoys focusing on other things. A wonderful Christian friend of mine did some mission work with people who followed Gothard. She was told that she was defrauding the men because her clothing fit her (it wasn't provocative or revealing by any normal standard). She wore a modest pair of slacks abd a nice blouse. They said women can't wear pants, because the area between your legs makes an arrow pointing up your crotch. REALLY? What pervert even thinks like that? Gothard, I guess. They made her go buy clothes several sizes too big in order to be godly enough for them. She was deeply hurt by this. Being the godly woman of character she is, she honored those over her, but she didn't agree. I have never seen anything positive cone out of Bill Gothard's movement.
wow - what about men wearing trousers then? They should be in tunics to as in OT times and some eastern cultures today (the scots kilt would be too short)
I find it odd that people would follow a man who taught the Lord is in control of the womb, and complementarism marriage~man is the authority over wife, yet he was never married!! What a quack!
I want to talk about my experience with a lifetime of gothard teaching and my road to healing. Please interview me. They have destroyed lives and caused the deaths of many people.
Where did you find the video of the Pearl's in the Kristiana interview? These practices have been and are used by some of the families I know. It is so scary!
I would love to hear more about this. I know a few families who follow this claptrap idea and find myself at a loss to understand it. But from what was covered in this video, I'm starting to wonder about just WHY their children are so well behaved in public. Also, I homeschooled my child from 4th grade through high school. We used a secular curriculum. Do you have ANY idea how difficult that was to find? Especially in areas like history and science? Damned near impossible! The Pearle's were often quoted in various online groups I joined for ideas and support. Damned near impossible to find secular groups as well--so much so I started one as all the other groups in my area were religious. The teachings of those people are far more abusive than just the blanket training. Children are to be hit with PVC pipes--as they don't show bruises as easily as belts or wooden paddles. Across the back of the legs is the preferred spot. I got kicked out of more than one group for my intolerance of this kind of thing--happily so. As I said, I can't even begin to understand how anyone could follow such utter bullshit, but I know people who do. I do hope they don't use those methods and are just lucky to have well-behaved children. Mine is one of those kinds of kids so I know they exist. Thank you both so much for shining a light on this topic. I really do hope there will be more.
I don't know the specifics, but that sounds about right. One of the groups I got tossed from was because I asked one follower of the Pearle method when was the last time his god took a pipe to the back of his legs for doing something he wasn't supposed to do. Seems turning their logic around on them is a no-no.
One thing not mentioned in the video is circa 2006, Gothard started the power of one accord (I.e. agreeing with him) If you violated the one accord, he would blame you for God retaining his blessing. I was told that it would be my fault if God withheld his blessing when I was at one of his facilities. This led me into deep depression suicide attempts (long time ago fine now) and a general hatred for all organized religion. This video is spot on accurate.
Great show very informative. I just bought a set of the Nature Scripture books at a local library book sale because the art was so good in them. I had no idea they were connected to such depravity. I will have to move them to my banned books section in my home , I call it the library of irony due to the nature of the dichotomy of subject and purpose. But great art is great art so they are worthy of keeping. I will however attach a disclaimer of their origin.
Does Kristiana have a relationship with her parents today? If not, does either side ever reach out to the other? As much as I read /hear about 'disconnection' or 'shunning,' I still find it very difficult to wrap my head around. It's really quite mind-blowing.
At 6:19 it shows material from back in the day. "Cause: When a father is too strict in his discipline. Effect: His children have their spirits broken". Ironic. This is explains how they operate now and what the effects are.
Blanket training is the same this as putting up an invisible fence for your dog (it works, but I still think its cruel). Can we do the same to the leaders of IBLP, if they even say the wrong word we get to wack him upside the head with a 2 x 4. Chris, have a great time at Howdycon
My parents used a playpen with us, but they never smacked us to keep us in a contained space, let alone lured us *on purpose* into trying to leave so that they could hit us. Big difference!
@Andrea Mendenhall a slap on the leg isn't fine if you were just encouraging your child to do the thing you are now slapping them for. That's sick and messed up.
@Andrea Mendenhall Have you ever heard of a babysitter rather than hitting your kids to for leaving a blanket after you just lured them off the blanket? When your kids grow up to cut off all contact with you, I hope you aren't too surprised.
Blaming a victim for being upset when abused is how narcissists operate.
Don't I know it! I was married to one, but I didn't know that was who he was until a year or so after the divorce. Narcissists are very good at hiding their psychopathology.
well said
It's amazing how difficult it can be to recognize when one is being abused. I was in a psychologically abusive relationship, and I didn't recognize that he was a psychopath who was abusing me until about a month after I broke up with him. In fact, I felt guilty about breaking things off at first because he was very nice about it at first. I realize now that that was just an attempt to manipulate me.
Conversely they also get mad when you refuse to react
No it's not, it's how gaslighting works. Narcissism and gaslighting aren't the same lmao.
The best thing about my having left the cult, is that I'm not so sin-focused now that I wake up daily hating myself. I can now love God and experience his true grace daily...."All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23. I'm a sinner, sure, we all fall short, I'm a human being....but I love myself more than ever.
If you want to believe in god then god is your higher self.
The biblical god Yahweh is a nasty piece of man made fiction, with no moral scruples and dumber than a box of rocks.
Yes!! I remember that. Waking up feeling so ashamed and unworthy.
@@heyodi3092 I woke up every single day thinking that I was horrible and unworthy and deserved the beatings I was getting. It's all so untrue. I am still a Christian, but I now understand grace.
I grew up in a Christian home and was homeschooled. So thankful that my parents encouraged us to seek things out for ourselves. Yes, they taught us about God, but they told us not to simply take their word it. We weren’t involved in IBLP or ATI. Homeschooling was great for our family. I graduated college with honors and am now in a counseling graduate program. It’s all about how the parents do it!
Very telling that Gothard is not married and never has been married, yet all these people go along with his plan on how to have a happy marriage.
Ann Marie Could it be even remotely possible that Mr. Gothard didn't get married so he could devote more time to serving God? It really is quite ok to do that.
"...He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife." (1 Corinthians 7:32-33)
Also, there are plenty of people who don't have children that offer child-rearing advice to people with children. Just a point. You haven't addressed that.
@@shelton5927 Then he cannot give advice on a happy marriage if he isn't married and has no experience. I can only help a person through something and give advice by what I've personally lived. I could never give advice on war if I've never been in one, fighting. I can tell you what Ive read but one who asks about a certain issue would like to see someone whos been there and whos succeeded. It's ik not top be married and teach what the bible says but like I said people don't want advice from a person who hasn't been there done that.
@@shelton5927 He remained unmarried so that he could more freely sexually abuse young women. Perhaps his cult began as a way to try and help underprivliged youth but as the years went on he tailored his teachings more and more to give himself power and control. Most cult leaders end up building themselves up to powerful positions so that they can engage in sexual abuse of their followers more easily, Gothard is no exception. Warren Jeffs of the FLDS mormon cult sexually abused women and girls (even his own daughters), Samuel Mullet Sr. of the Amish also did it, Charles Manson did it, David Berg of "The Family" /"The Children of God" did it, cult leaders ultimatley create cults so they can take advantage of people. Usually they use their male followers for money and sexually abuse the women and children. Stop defending a rapist/cult leader/ all around monster passing himself off as human. It's disgusting that he's been able to live into his 80's.
@@spydersmom1
You think there is no knowledge apart from personal experience. This is not even close to true.
If you can't learn by observing others in the first decade of life, it is almost certain that no amount of experience will change that.
The basic principle of how to raise kids is seeing how they view life. If you can't get that by the time you finish high school then you'll never get it.
I lived next door to someone who had four kids and obviously never had a clue. Experience never teaches those who refuse to learn
@@foolishdrunk2181 I should Rephrase my answer.. If there is someone that comes to me and ask me, what have you learned in your marriage that is good and that is bad? I could tell them my experience. If someone comes to me and says what should I know about marriage? If I have never been married then I can only say, I can tell you what I've seen and what I've witnessed but I cannot give you my personal opinion or experience. Of course it is different when you have children I did grow up with many nieces and nephews whom I babysat and I had that kind of experience but I had no experience in being a mother. So I had to learn as I went the only experience I could say I had is watching my own mom and living with her teaching me. I never had any experience in grooming animals and I taught myself. But I could never ask somebody who has never groomed a dog, How can I groom a dog? They can tell me what they've witnessed or seen, they cannot give me personal examples.
My wife and I and our kids were part of Bill Gothard's program back in the nineties. We never went all in, but we were far enough in to be damaged by some of the main ideas, which were based on twisting the Bible. Funny thing is that Gothard taught you should never let your kids sleep over at someone else's house, but you were supposed to send them to live and work under his care. Right. So look what happened... they had some spiffy looking materials and books... We spent hundreds on them, thousands on attending SEMINARS.
Your perspective and even handed approach are commendable. Thanks for including this.
We never went all in ? seriously God gives you discernment I found many things that Bill said which made me go back and question the scripture , Bill was no theologian , he simply drew principles from the scripture, God expects you to know scripture well enough to make sure the word is not being twisted after all it was Eve who listened the the first distorted message " did God say " , where is your discernment , Even Bill taught we should learn discernment. if you had really listened to any of his material you would have heard that , you are typical of those that get some benefit but turn like ravenous wolves on this humble servant , just remember as you have attacked Bill , your family will experience the same fruit , When we return evil for good , evil will never depart our homes. I will be praying that this will not happen
How did you spend "thousands on attending SEMINARS" when the seminar is FREE for alumni?
@@C-right Exactly.
@@wawabbit I don't know how familiar you are with these seminars, but when enrolled in this program, families were expected to attend a yearly, week-long convention which was held in Knoxville, Tennessee. People traveled from all over the place to attend, and you had to pay for food, gas/travel, hotels, and purchase any new or updated materials as well.
My family alone had 6 people. I'll let you do the math on how much money that would add up to for even 1 of these trips, much less years of them; and many of these families (if not most) had upwards of 10 members, because birth control was strongly advised against.
And yes, we should be Biblically literate and, sadly, most professing believers have never even read their own Book from start to finish, much less studied it daily. But if I'm being completely honest, the people I met in that program were easily some of the most Biblically literate folks I've ever known. We read the Bible morning, noon and night, and a lot of the teaching was perfectly fine in moderation. But Bill was a fraud and wolf in sheep's clothing, and he abused his own system and broke his own teachings behind closed doors because he was a deviant and sexual predator.
So Darren's comment was not only sanctimonious and self-serving, but unnecessarily accusatory, and just plain wrong. Blaming the victim for realizing they were being victimized and repenting of their error in judgement is exactly the opposite of what the Bible teaches us to do, so the irony of his own words is rather astounding.
Chris, it's me again... :) I'm well on my way to a masters in family therapy....tonight's posting assignment was on how to help victims of DV and sexual abuse. I used your initial interview with Kristian to answer the question of "what is the clergy doing on this important issue?"...ooooohhhhh boy......I was all set with my critique of Mike Pearl and Bill Gothard! I got a 105%!!!! Thanks! As a woman who no longer "quivers", I'm 105% behind you guys!
It genuinely angers me the Duggars still try to pretend they have no connection to this cult. They literally showed them attending the ATI homeschool conference, complete with a giant "ATI bound!!!" banner on their RV, in one of their early TV specials. They even used to have links to Quiverful/IBLP stuff on their site, but it's been scrubbed clean since they got the TLC gig. They are total and complete LIARS.
Carter Pewterschmidt I didn't know they tries to hide it. They used to attent my church. We were very ATI. I was confused why we were celebrating them since they were cooperating with the "one eyed monster" (the tv.)
Carter Pewterschmidt They are sick people. Sick. I can't believe I was ever inclined to defend them. I mean, I know why - I'm right-wing, and virtually everybody attacking them is left-wing - but I should have known better. I already know there are plenty of things both sides can agree on, but many on both sides don't realize this because we don't listen to each other.
The Bates pretend to not be part of it either, but Gil Bates and Erin's father-in-law, Dr. Paine, both sit on the board of directors.
San Dan they tried to cover it up when they tried to justify josh’s affair.
@@susanstrong5105 They sound like a bunch of liars and hypocrites that crave power and recognition.
I went to his seminars in 1973 as a teen. Bill Gothard is a perfect example of what Christ said; " Get thee away from Me for I never knew you " !!!
Your content regarding IBLT was instrumental in me coming to terms with my own abuses
+austin bright - wow. Thank you.
I started reading "i fired god" by jocelyn zitcherman a couple years ago and i was absolutely HORRIFIED at how many of those controlling, and brainwashing techniques were used in my church and the home i grew up in. i appreciate people exposing this without being malicious.
austen bright you don't live in Washington do you? My last name is bright too
Excellent job, Chris and Kristiana. Am I the only one who thinks Kristiana should have her own UA-cam channel?
No, she totally should.
She should be a professional narrator beyond youtube. She's seriously that good.
I agree.
Agreed! I was thinking this before I read the comments. Kristiana should be brought on as your permanent co-host or have a duo show or she can have her own? She is great. She's honest, truthful, articulate, compassionate and her voice is calming and easily understood. She just seems to reach through the medium of a little screen and make you pay attention/listen and understand with what seems like effortlessness. You guy's do great work...such great work...thank you both so, so much! Keep it! I grew up similarly.
I seventh that!
These videos are so interesting and I wish every Duggar fan would watch. It is so good to see Kristiana again and am so happy she is free. More details ? Yes please.
Anne Montgomery I was wondering how Kristiana was doing. I saw the video where she shared her story of growing up in that crazy abusive IBLP cult. She is a brave woman.
Anne Montgomery
Yes I was wondering how Christina was getting along too. Rocking that super short hair. Bespite having very little choice in the matter, she is a very strong individual. I am so glad she has survived this cult and is helping to expose how evil it is.
N Avery sounds to me like your rationalizing their sons behavior. He is still a pervert. All proven
@N Avery Birth control works by preventing ovulation or preventing implantation of the egg in the uterine wall. The second form is what people like the Duggars would claim is "abortion" but that would occur before the woman even knows she is pregnant, even if she took a pregnancy test, it is too early at that point. Michelle had a miscarriage and was looking for someone/something to blame. There isn't any evidence that her miscarriage was caused by contraception. In any case, if that was truly the problem they could use NFP or barrier methods. Instead they went off the rails and had 19 kids and taught them it is wrong to use any form of contraception, even if the woman's health is suffering.
They also don't allow the women enough freedom or education to be able to leave if their husband is abusive or a cheat. They brainwashed Anna to believing that she couldn't divorce Josh even when he was caught cheating-- heck from what she says she's apparently brainwashed into believing it's her fault he cheated, because she wasn't always "available" to him physically. Even if she hadn't been brainwashed into believing she had to stay, she doesn't have the education or means to support herself and her kids.
The way the put women in bondage to their husbands and threaten that they won't go to heaven if they don't submit to their husbands, even when the husband cheats or is abusive, they are no better than the FLDS.
Chris and Kristiana -- thanks so much for doing this. I've been looking forward to it ever since Chris mentioned the two of you would be presenting something together. I was a fundie long, long ago and attended one of Gothard's huge seminars in the mid-70s. It sounded so little like the Christianity I thought I knew, particularly when Gothard instructed abused wives to "thank God for the beating." So glad you got out, Kristiana, and are able to do this important work. Since this movement is portrayed as cute and sweet on television, the more people know, the better -- so more videos, please!
I'd love to see you two team up to take on the Pearls and their twisted views on raising children.
+Bobby Hunsaker that's what these videos are all about.
@@ChrisSheltonMsc Well... the Pearls have a bit of a twist on it. We were in ATI for over 11 years and it was "in us" for many more - unfortunately. The Pearls are a combo of totalitarian, IFB, ATI, child abuse. Oh my goodness - the appeal and the abused wife - wow. That is the truth!! "God is letting you go through (whatever it is)" I was never abused but SO believed that God was behind whatever I was treated like. Debbie Pearl is a nut. Thank you, Chris, for shining the light of truth. I have enjoyed many of your videos.
P & J Fetts Institutional child and spousal abuse. I’m glad you made it out. Never get involved with anyone who asks you if you can be submissive. It’s a dead giveaway.
Chris Shelton also can you talk about Lori Alexander aka The Transformed Wife?
@@pjfetts893 Michael and Debi Pearl are a disgrace to christianity!
I am a Christian. I love God and Jesus. I believe in the Holy Spirit. I do my best every single day to show the love of Jesus to people.
With that said, I hate to see Christianity being used in an abusive way. Religion gets weapon used a lot, and it’s very sad because it makes people turn away from Christianity and Jesus, rather than turning towards it.
Amen 🙏🏼. Well said!
Kristiana Miner you are incredible, strong and beautiful in the face of extreme patriarchy and oppression. Thank you for teaching us more about the Gothard cult Chris. You are always so smart, well researched and sincere. Keep them coming!
This is one of the best videos on the Bill Gothard and the IBLP that I've seen, I've actually watched it three times. Thank you so much for speaking up for these victims and bringing his crimes to light. I have shared your video on facebook, and I've also shared you interview with Kristiana.
+Angela Radomi Thank you. That was exactly what we wanted.
I still miss Jim Bob and Shell, and my girls miss their girls...but when we left the movement after being shunned (all because we dared take a stand for the abuse of our little grandbabies who were being neglected and beaten with rods), Shell and Jim Bob cut us off. I think that is very telling.
You are incredibly brave. You made the choice to risk losing all of your friends and family for the sake of your grandchildren. That's an amazing sacrifice. I hope your grandchildren are no longer associated with IBLP. You have my admiration and I wish you nothing but the best.
Wow, just...wow! All my hopes for a happy life for you, your husband, and your grandkids.
WynnKidsNanny LoriVance Hi Lori. I agree with the other commenters here...you are incredibly BRAVE... and I thank you for sharing this very personal experience. The word that comes to mind.... HORRIFIC. I am SO VERY SORRY that these people even TRIED to physically assault your grandbabies!! DISGUSTING and they need to be in jail. May Jesus bless you and your family Always. Rachel in Nashville :)
Very brave And you did A good thing! You stood Up for yourselves.
I am glad you stood up, that must have been very hard. We need more good people to stand up.
Wow Kristiana! You've done it again! Not only have you exposed the truth that this organization is a house divided unto itself,but have literally been a watchman on the walls for every Christian and non-Christian alike. Your testimonials have been nothing short of inspiring and I would go so far as to say miraculous in that God is using you to separate the wheat from the chaff and your acute analysis of this cult is nothing short of the truth,the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And may God be with you as you take this ministry of healing to the four corners of the earth and beyond. May God richly bless you and yours all the days of your life and may this message be received by all you come into contact with.
The 1 dislike is from Gothard.
Joel Pearson and his clones
Joel Pearson who got hard
I guess it could also be Michael or Debi Pearl or Voddie Baucham.
@@debbiebrown4420What’s wrong with Voddie Bauchum?
Thank you for sharing this. We were sucked into this as a newly married couple. We wanted to share what we had learned with other friends who couldn't afford to go. However, was extremely disappointed and almost angered that on the first day, we had to sign a paper saying we would NOT share anything we learned at the conference, and that we would NEVER allow anyone to see the book of "wisdom" he had given to those who attended. Praise God, His salvation is FREE TO ALL! That was our first and last encounter.
Chris, this kind of content I why I love your channel. You cover issues that don't get mainstream coverage in amazing depth and shine a light on abuse. Keep up the amazing work! :)
+Sam Bible thank you!
It's impossible to know exactly. You'd have to ask IBLP for their records. I suspect they are like Scientology i that regard.
IBLP claim to have presented their seminars to over two million people since the 1960's. IBLP alumni are spread through out the Christian Church it is not a denomination in and of itself. Bill Gothard is no longer head of IBLP He was forced to step down due to sexual harassment allegations where legal proceedings are ongoing. IBLP is essentially Bill Gothard and its teachings are essentially Bill Gothard's personal beliefs. As you have pointed out there are similarities between IBLP and Scientology but there are also links similarities with Mormonism and mysticism as well. It is a dangerous cult.
Bill Gothard can be summed up in two words PROJECTION and defelction. Every teaching Gothard presents is an attempt to project his view of the world on others that includes his own sins. Every attempt to confront Gothard about his teachings and practices have been headed off by his insistence that they meet in a setting of his choosing on his terms even though he will present himself as a humble little man. Don't be fooled by his false humility the guy is a control freak who undertakes to discredit anyone who challenges him. Finally when challenged Gothard will claim he wasn't approached in the right way basically dismissing all and any charges against him.
Bill has no conscience about his past or his teachings, so as soon as he was stood down by IBLP he began a new venture called power prayer teams or something to that effect that ha the same old message as IBLP with the same hollow promise of assured success.
IBLP has been an abject failure in terms of actually improving lives in a meaningful way it has bound and crippled thousands of souls and keeps in bondage many thousands more. I have personally seen it destroy a number of lives and I know some who are still under its curse.
Sorry Chris I am not as forgiving as you I don't think there is anything beneficial in IBLP as it twists out of context nearly every verse in the bible that it uses. If Gothard could he would do the same damage if not more with Scientology or any other self improvement/religious belief system he got his hands on because it's really not about the beliefs it's about Bill Gothard and only Bill Gothard.
Chris Symonds I doubt anyone reading this comment is fooled by old Bill.
I also don't think Chris is forgiving of him. He's probably biting his tongue publicly out of decorum and decency, but he's made clear how little he thinks of his teachings, and how dangerous they are.
I personally think he's just another psychopath. Though not as dangerous as Scientology, if not for any other reason than not having the resources and power they have. And I'm not aware of him sending private investigators after people, putting up hate websites, or trying to get people fired from their jobs. Scientology [David Misgavaige] does seem to go a step above, even compared to your average psychopath who's not always as vindictive.
The best lies are a distortion of the truth. He takes scripture and twists it into something that it's not. Using our faith against us is the most painful and difficult to recover from abuse. I had to drop everything I was ever taught about Christianity in order to rediscover it through the Holy Spirit and NOT religion, and I finally found peace and love and acceptance and hope, instead of anxiety and fear and self-doubt and deception and shame and isolation. And it came through a personal discovery and revelation with my personal walk with Jesus, and not a bunch of rules and dogma and a pecking order of a perfect life dictated to me by someone else.
Bill Gothard and his malicious ideology has destroyed so many lives. The Pearl's and Gothard need to rot in hell for destroying so many lives and promoting domestic violence. Great video Chris and Kristiana for speaking out about this. If you are in a violent relationship
get yourself and your kids out of there. Get help (press charges, go to a shelter, seek psychological support services). Please get out of this it's not worth risking your physical and psychological health for a system that represses women and children.
I do not think there should be any limits of prosecution on abuse and molestation. The victims have to deal with the consequences for the rest of their lives so why should the perpetrators get off Scott free to keep doing it. Like Josh Duggar. His behavior is despicable and if I was his wife Anna I would not let him near me or my children. Who knows, those little babies of theirs could be next.
Ascary Navarro - I totally understand your thinking. I was abused my whole childhood. My stepfather the main perp never got in trouble because it was too late. 30+ yrs later he still creeps me out if I catch him staring at me but I just do it right back to let him know he doesn't scare me anymore.
Ms. Grumpy thanks and I'm sorry of what had happened and it is sickening and awful. These people like Gothard and Duggar who make me want to vomit blood (forgive my language) don't get the punishment that they deserve. These survivors don't deserve the injustice that they are living through. You have my full support
He'll get his due punishment...
An aged body can only last for so long.
Ascarry Navarro, I despise Bill Gothard and the Pearls, too, as well as Voddie Baucham, R.C. Sproul Jr., Larry Solomon and Doug Phillips. Midwest Christian Outreach Ministry, on the other hand, is run by conservative christians with their their heads on straight. That ministry exposes legalistic cults, movements, and teachers.
I’m a Christian. This is insane, and it is so sad to see how someone can take the Word of God twist it and lead so many astray. The saddest part is to see people reject the Bible and the one true God because of how this man has claimed the things he has.
So so true!!
so do u think u understand the so called holy book? what proof do u have that, that insane book even came from god? seriously.........how do u know? U DO NOT KNOW WHERE THE BIBLE CAME FROM!!!!!!!!!!!! IT COULD BE FROM SATAN!!!!!!!! THE BIBLE IS JUST A BOOK!!!!!!!!
lauren vega-cruz why would you believe in Satan if you don’t believe the Bible?
Christian Church is also full of molesters.
Alana L. True-this guy is also a false "prophet".
Oh my gosh, thank you so much for this video! I was raised in ATI. I feel heard. Finally. Excuse me a minute. 😭❤❤❤
+Kaytie Buckhalt You are very welcome. You guys are one of the reasons we made this.
I’m so sorry Kaytie you had to endure this! We were introduced to it in the 80’s and some of our friends got sucked into it hook line and sinker! They both had a deep father wound and when someone comes along like Bill Gothard it’s music to their souls! Only our Heavenly Father deserves to take that spot!! They are still dabbling in it with their youngest but all of their older children are out of there living life the way they want to and struggling to make sense out of it all. I will pray that God will heal your heart and show you his abundant grace poured out every day for you!!!! Jesus paid for it all!
I know I'm a but late to seeing this, but I'm so glad you were able to get away from this horrible cult and I'm so sorry you had to go through that.🖤
Abuse is not okay. Whether it's from someone who you thought was a friend, someone you love or your family/parents; it's never okay. The people who try to stand up for it and excuse it are evil and belong in jail.
Hugs girl
@@ath3na.64
There are people standing up for it here on this page of comments!
My sister went to a a Gothard youth conference decades ago. And somehow our family ended up with a Character Sketches family study book that sat on our shelf for over 40 years, never used. I inherited many of my dad's books. Just this week I looked through the Character Sketches book wondering why Daddy never used it. On the very first page was a statement
"God gave man a marvelous intellect with one limitation - he is not to use it to learn the details of evil (Romans 16:19) Today's pseudo intellectuals are vigorously trying to defend their 'right' to use their mind to study all the details of evil so that 'Ye shall be as gods knowing good and evil.' (Genesis 3:5) God never intended that we learn evil with our mind or by experience but rather with our spirit. (1 John 4:1)"
Wow! So much to unpack. No wonder my dad never opened this book with our family. Taking three verses out of context to get followers to NOT examine truth - right from page one!
My husband said that maybe it means not dwelling on evil, like downloading p*rn so you know how bad it is. Hmm. Maybe.
I will say that I discovered that one of the featured character traits was initiative and he used the story of Abigail, David, and Nabal and how she used initiative to go against what her husband said in order to do the better thing for David. Hmm. That doesn't sound very patriarchal. Maybe Gothard’s teachings changed over time? This book was published in 1976.
I was raised Southern Baptist and our church was definitely influenced by IBLP. I was homeschooled but not by ATIA Luckily, my parents weren't as into it as some of the others but I saw so many women treated like dirt by their husbands. So many were having tons of kids they couldn't afford. We weren't allowed to wear shorts unless they came past our knees and when we went to camp girls had to wear a one piece and there was no "mixed swimming" allowed. I never thought about college until I was about to turn 18 and someone at church asked me about it. I always thought I was just supposed to get married. There was also no dating allowed only "courting". I'm glad I got away from that madness when I was 19. I've sometimes wondered how my life would have been if I had stayed. Not very happy I'm sure.
Angel Ella I was raised Southern Baptist also from the time I was born till I stopped going to church about 18. When I was in the church (60's-70's) there weren't restrictions like you've mentioned. The SBC was a pretty moderate religion. Our youth group was fun, we did all kinds of activities. Like going to camp, there was no separate swim coed boys and girls together. (we did have to wear one piece bathing suits) We would have what was called a lock-in, we would be lock in the church and have food and games. Clothing? as long it wasn't immodest (like short shorts or halter tops.) we wore what we wanted. Dating? we were allowed to date, I had lots of boyfriends. I'm sorry to hear that the religion of my childhood has taken such right turn in controlling their people
@@batgurlaqua I was raised Southern Baptist in the 2000s and my church was similar to how you described. I didn't end up staying in that church because I didn't agree with some of the beliefs, but they weren't cultish and didn't have all those crazy rules, and I never heard of Bill Gothard the entire time I attended. I guess it really just depends on each individual church and the pastor who's running it.
Kinda like a priest giving marital advice. Smh
Bill Gothard never advocated treating women like dirt , that was part of the mindset of the men who never really listened to the Calling of God on how to treat their wives , and as for lots of kids God calls us to have large families and raise them as Godly , you have a problem with that take it up with God
I didn't wake up till my late 50s.
Thanks for this video. Had it on in the background, at first while I was doing some personal admin. But, halfway through I was just staring at the screen unable to do anything else because I couldn't believe what I was hearing. You both came across as very professional and it's obvious that you have done a lot of research. Nice to see the balance in this video Chris, of having a female co-presenter. And, how genuine and moving she comes across when talking about what happened to those children.
Thank you. Yes, it's pretty unbelievable stuff.
I'll add my voice to the chorus here and say you did a remarkable job, Chris and Kristiana! Excellent video! If you made more videos on this topic, I'd certainly watch them!
Thanks for making these videos about Gothard. His teachings have been pervasive and destructive in my own life. Videos like these and the recovering grace site are so validating and help me process.
VERY good job, both of you!
Chris, it's this 'paralleling' - comparing different high-control groups - that is one of your most powerful tools for showing people what makes a destructive cult destructive.
Bravo!
I'm thrilled you guys did this video! I watched the first interview twice. I enjoyed it more the second time, but liked it both times! Thank you!
your best non-scientology episode, well done both of you
non Scientology episode ? seriously the guy is talking complete BS to compare what Bill Gothard taught has no connection to a cult
@@C-right
Wrong. There are MANY similarities.
Thanks for presenting this information. Although my family was never involved in the IBLP courses and lifestyle, it was certainly held in high regard when I was growing up (70s/80s). I knew at least one family who used their materials. Some of the practices seemed strict even from a conservative Christian perspective, but it was all presented as being for the best intentions. I hope this shows Christian believers how to avoid being led astray by corrupt teachers who want to use God's word for their own purposes. Also, people who are not Christians should realize that what they see as evil in this organization is not what Jesus taught us in regards to children and "the least of those" in society.
Fred Firestine So true....Well said :)
Bill Gothard was never Corrupt , his biggest crimes was not going deeper into the word , but given he had it in a nutshell his method was great
@@C-right So all the “covering” man over wife, parents over kids... That’s OK? He just didn’t study enough to get it right?
@@ffluvssg1 you have to ask your self was what he was saying from the bible, the answer YES did he go deeper into it NO, you seem to have an issue with Gods word, not Bill Gothard tell me are you truly saved, I mean Born again, if so then you would know what he had to say was from the bible but you sound more like a religious person who goes to church for the sake of your religion, you are really lost in your sin and headed for hell that should worry you more than Bill Gothard being in it for money as you allege
@@C-right Aw, that's nice of you to try and diagnose my spirituality. :-) If you want to look at "fruit" of someone's ministry, I suggest you search for more testimonials from people who left the IBLP teachings Bill Gothard promoted, and the damage they did. It's easy to say they were never following Jesus, they had incomplete or incorrect understanding, etc. but true evidence of the Holy Spirit would be that the abuses would be identified and stopped much sooner. Eliminate the sin from your camp!
I honestly did not know this was or had been going on. 7yrs of my life 91-96 consisted of everything Gothard, fortunately, my parents corrected the course and my family left that organization.
So glad to hear you got away.
I found this video very informative. After watching interviews with Jinger Duggar Vuolo speaking out against this, it piqued my interest in what she had actually been taught. I can't wait to read her book, Becoming Free Indeed, Disentangling Faith from Fear. For those who ridicule IBLP/ATI members, especially the Duggars, please remember that the children who grew up under this instruction were victims. How can they be blamed for the way their parents raised them; this being the only the only lifestyle they knew? Compassion goes a long way. I pray that as these victims grow into adults, the Lord exposes and reveals the truth between Gothard's 'principles' and the true gospel and word of God.
Excellent video. Thanks for taking the time and care to create and publish it.
Such high quality content. Thanks so much for doing this, you both are awesome. What a great resource!
You're welcome!
This was a great follow up to first interview with Kristiana Miner. I really enjoyed her story in the first interview video and this video is equally informative about IBPL. Thank you so much for making this video.
After you mentioned Bill Gothard. Then and his teachings, I exhausted myself about everything I could find about him and his teachings. Then I listened to this video entirely. I saw parallels of these teachings with Communism and National Socialism. Gothard's failure seems to be in not noticing his own limitations. And then working to overcome them toward more abundant living. If your limitations are your enemy, recognize the enemy and then do something about it. The answers are within.
I started attending the Basic Youth Conflicts Seminar with my family when I was in 7th grade, and it resulted in a highly legalistic, harsh family life for me and my brother. Each of us were subjected to severe ass-beatings for even the smallest offenses.
That is child abuse. That is not what Jesus intends for us. In the Catholic schools we had nuns. Many of them were horribly mean to us as school children and caused a lot of Catholics to fall away from the church as adults. It took a lot of healing. I actually confided in a dear priest friend as an adult and he apologized to me on behalf of all the abuse those women caused. I gotta tell you, that apology gave me such spiritual healing. Long story short, God still sits on the throne and when things go wrong, He cleans House! You won’t find those things happening in classrooms now.
Yes! I totally agree on the similarities and control patterns of both groups. I have always thought that and every thing coming out in recent years just validates it. Thank you!
Victim-blaming in a nutshell: "There's no excuse for making a person feel guilty, when *they're* the one that has been wronged or harmed."
Great video, as always. I started researching cults from some sort of fascination, "what are some of the 'crazy' things people believe"-way, but now I just think of how helpful learning about destructive cults, their actions and the mechanisms they use to break and control people. A few weeks ago, a friend confessed to me about her recently-ended, 5-year abusive relationship with an acquaintance. She started in a position of blaming herself, of not being strong enough... but when I started talking about the destructive cults I'd researched, their ways of control, and the (very real) idea that "no one joins a cult", she started thinking about her situation recently.
In one of your podcasts with an exit councelor (her name escapes me right now), she also says how the strategies for helping people get out of cults and helping addicts recover are similar. I deeply believe that knowledge of destructive cults and how they operate can empower people stuck in situations of abuse.
Since the situation with my friend, I've been researching for an article/presentation where I'll make the case for just that. Your videos have helped me a lot understand some concepts, and present me with excellent ways of explaining others (like the definition above.) Please keep making them!
This is such a great point!!! I totally agree and while watching the presentation then reading the comments, I came to the realization that you expressed so clearly, quote, "knowledge of destructive cults and how they operate can empower people stuck in situations of abuse" which is so compelling in my opinion. Over the last couple of years I have come to realize and have started to understand the psychological damage that has occurred in my family as a result of multiple narcissists vying for control. As difficult as it is to experience that realization, then admit to yourself that it is true and the destruction of the "facade" you believed in, the TRUTH is the only way to begin to heal and move forward.
The Duggars always said some things that made me think ‘are they a cult?’ I really didn’t even think that they were watering shit down. Like, they shame women in public for wearing regular clothes. They say a ‘code word’ or something and cover their eyes. Like, this is what they admit! They go right into engagement before they even date (they call it courting), and the parents organize that, like ‘my kid should marry yours. I’ll get him to propose when they finally meet in person.’ The Duggars once said something about ‘we prefer for our kids to be 18 when they get married,’ like there is an epidemic of teen marriage. It’s not even legal in most states!
U can be married at 18 what r u even on about?
@@nowat4987
They can marry younger than that with parents' permission.
Blanket training is unbelievably sick. Why do people have no empathy for their own children?
I can't say enough good things about this video, Chris. This is important work you are doing and it's clear you genuinely care. Kristiana Miner is lovely and compelling; I do hope you will will work together again in the future. People like Bill Gothard and institutions like IBLP *need* to be exposed for their hypocrisy and cruelty. Please pass on my deep respect and thanks to Kristiana.
Thanks Betty. Yes, this video is one of the most important ones I've ever made. Please do share it far and wide.
I can't get over how SIMILAR this is to Scientology. This is spooky. EDIT: Kristiana, having gone through something similar, I related to how choked up you got just describing the sexual abuse and the victim blaming. It's easy to see how you relate to this as well. It's in your heart and spirit coming through.
Thank you so so much for covering this. I was raised in a breakoff sect of the IFBC and have cousins in the Gothard belief as well. Thankful to have come away from it, but still struggle with finding a foundation spiritually because of it.
I attended the basic youth conflict seminar. It help build my self esteem. It really has changed a lot. The seven conflicts are not the same as the seven principles. There were not so many rules and women were more respected in the beginning.
I stumbled upon you by accident, now I’m a super fan and have been binge watching!
Thank you for uploading this and the previous interview. I really appreciate it.
Please do a part 2!
Abuse is just a failed attempt at murder. Men aren't allowed to even try to murder their wives or children, so abusing people is sin on the part of the perpetrator, not the victim.
I'm worried about Mike Pence being one heartbeat (or impeachment) away from the most powerful office in the country. Does he have any connection to this extreme authoritarian group?
I have been worried about that since the day they announced Pence was running. I have a really hard time deciding who the lesser of two evils actually is. I am sure you understand what I mean by that, so I wont take up anyone's time by opening that, (politics), can of worms here. Every single time I see him, I have such a feeling of foreboding and I wonder if researching further would help me or make it worse, so I tell myself that in this situation, maybe ignorance really is bliss???? There was an eye opening, very well written article that I read last year but unfortunately I don't remember the details to share with you how to find it. It was a young lady who grew up in the IBLP movement and went on to discuss her opinions, in that context, of Mike Pence AND Education Sect. Betsy DeVos. I can not remember if it was discussed in the article or not but any discussion about Pence and DeVos in that context, needs to include Sect. DeVos's brother Erik Prince, the founder of Blackwater. Google blackwater/erik prince because I could not begin to explain the gravity of his access or the true involvement within the current administration. Even though he does not hold a cabinet position, he has access and has been portrayed as an "adviser" as well as NOT being an adviser... I'll refrain from sharing any further assumptions or opinions about him.
Needless to say, we are in a very precarious position and I am very fearful of what may or may not happen in the future.
I have the same question. Even if he doesn't have a connection to the IBLP, he sure acts like he does!
I am so saddened by this. Thank you for making this video. My heart is heavy. I have my own dealings with cults and remember well the depression I couldn’t put my finger on and the anxiety that stalked my every step. I hope the survivors are okay.
Kristiana, just wanted to say I LOVE YOUR HAIR! I'm glad you cut it off, you're adorable. (I know that's off topic, but wanted to share). I think it's a sign of your liberation.
I had forgotten all about Bill Gothard. I attended the Basic Life Principles Seminar in New Zealand about 25-30 years ago. I recognised that he was of the deeply conservative Christian right in the US and as such had some pretty silly views on some issues. But those who embraced the teachings believed they were being more holy, more devoted to God, more spiritual than those who didn't embrace them and who questioned the varacity of some of his teaching. The church I attended at the time had a number of these beliefs about submission to leadership and not questioning authority. It had a massive effect on the way women were viewed and their roles. Single women in our church were treated like great stumbling blocks to the godly single young men in the church as though we were harlots. It was disgraceful. It has been very interesting to stumble across this talk and review again how destructive the teachings I was subjected to and the continuing effect it's had on my view of myself as a woman and my ability to have a mutually respectful relationship. It really pisses me off.
Extraordinarily well done! Really exceptional work done here by the two of you.
If anyone has questions about ATI/IBLP not on the video, I don’t mind sharing what I can from my perspective and experiences.
Also for anyone who needs help in any way , there is an amazing foundation that helps those specifically from the cult.
Thank you! Definitely appreciate that you are speaking out and helping others with this.
Chris Shelton I appreciate you doing such intensive looks into this sex cult. I feel like it’s definitely not well known outside of the circle, despite being fairly large. It’s so damaging, and in my eyes especially to women. Your worth is tied up in the quality of your womb. I don’t know if your staying up to date on the news, but Goth-terd had quite the run in this past big sandy. The board called the cops on him even. But ive heard some whispers that they may be letting him back in at some level and it’s causing a massive internal rift since there’s two camps. Interesting stuff.
Maybe we should talk. Can you email me?
Chris Shelton absolutely, I just need your contact. I don’t interact much on YT so I’m not too familiar with it 😜
AskChrisShelton@gmail.com.
I was raised in quiverfull/vision forum teachings, which are results of gothardism. I’d love to see more videos and maybe one on Doug Phillips and vision forum and their involvement with the IBLP.
Been under his teachings....it empowered my husband to tighten this narcissistic grip on me... Kept me 43 years (and six kids )in an abusive marriage....
Glad to hear you got out. How are your children doing (if you don't mind a stranger asking)?
Well, you nailed it well before Happy Shiny People, kudos for that part. All cults follow the same formula over the centuries, and it works time and time again. Now, how do you raise a child to become cult-proof? How can an adult become cult-proof? And thank you for tweeting this to me,
You bet. The best answer I have is education and instilling the discipline to use it with critical thinking training and learning about emotional intelligence.
Tell your children to run far away if anyone tells them: they have all the answers, you must respect their authority absolutely, you must distance yourself from anyone not in the group, if they shun or threaten members for leaving. Legit organizations are not threatened by critical thinking, member questions or contact with outsiders.
I grew up in Fargo ND. When I was around 8 y/o, I asked our Pastor(John Elverum) how would I know if my faith is actually MY faith & I'm not just copying what my family believes. To his credit, instead of a throw-off answer like "just do what your parents do", Pastor John said, "I suppose the best answer is to tell you to study & read about ALL faiths. Find out what they believe & why. Then, listen to your heart. You'll know what your faith is or isn't when you have the feeling that a faith really feels right to you." Pretty daring statement to make to an 8 y/o in 1969, wasn't it? But, to his credit, he was absolutely right. And, I still say a thank-you prayer to Pastor John quite often! Now I'm 57 y/o & I've had a life-long hobby of studying religions, sects & cults. It's fascinating & NEVER boring! Thank you Pastor John! YOU were & are a true disciple of Jesus Christ. And to your great credit, you took a question by a little girl seriously. And, I've never forgotten that. I only wish ALL kids had someone like you they could go too to ask those types of questions.
Quote: "I still say a thank-you prayer to Pastor John quite often!"
You pray to a dude?? ??
I am so glad I finally watched this video. Actually, it came on due to my auto play following another video. I always thought by the title that this was a “pro” Bill Gothard story because it asks about Heaven. Whew😅, was I wrong thank goodness. I am a concerned Christian Catholic and the direction that many of these fundamental cult like religions are taking is frightening. Thank you for this well thought out, educational insight into the reality of one of what I consider a society woe.
Please make more Gothard videos!
This is an extremely well put together video with very important points made...everything is covered here. Very eye opening, very disturbing. Thank you for making this video to educate the public of this issue.
I was in a church where the pastor had been working for years in the local "Youth For Christ" organization. While there he began to come under the influence of Bill Gothard and the Institute's teachings. He believed at that time, (1977 -1980) that they would help christian families stay close to God. But he, himself was not teaching the extreme "shepherding" aspects. And after taking over a small Pentecostal church, he influenced many of the newly saved youth and young families in the congregation to attend the Institute. After a time, as the church grew one of these youth s became his assistant pastor. When the older pastor was found to have had an affair with a woman in the church, the younger pastor worked behind the scenes, with other leaders of the church , to have him removed. The pastor was not allowed to undergo a normal counseling and reconcilliation process, but his ministry was destroyed. The young pastor commenced too changing the church into one wholly ruled by Gothard's teaching. Including the "Quiverfull" movement. My wife and i labored to change the direction of the church but were constantly harassed by the leadership. At the time I had graduated with an MDiv. and had been ordained and i knew that what was happening was not right. But i was publicly humiliated for my beliefs. My wife and I left after battling the teachings for over a year. When we landed in an open loving congregation for the first time we cried. We did not realize how much the cult had affected us even though we were fighting it. I was traumatized by the experience, unable to separated myself from feelings of guilt and was never able to have a church of my own.. although I have joyfully worked in the same loving congregation in many supporting roles for 30 years. As far as i know, the church we left still practices Gothard's teachings..
In the early 1980s a friend of mine took me to a weekend Gothard seminar in Atlanta. I had no idea what to expect, but was very upset when the statement was made that music with a beat was the devil's music. As the day went on, and they further explained their beliefs, I went from upset to horrified. I sat there for the rest of the day out of courtesy to my friend, but did not return on Sunday. Forty years later, I realize this was one of several brief encounters with cults in my life. If you get the feeling that you are falling into a spider web, you probably are. Get away as quickly as possible, and don't look back. Thanks, Chris
all music has a beat or rhythm in it that's why it's called music in the first place
loved the video! please do the part 2 you mentioned!
I feel so sorry for Anna Duggar, Josh Duggar’s wife. Not only did she have to endure being lied to and cheated on by her husband, she has also had to stay with him and keep having more babies, now on number six! This is abuse!
I think of Anna, too. What upsets me along with all you mentioned is that she was probably made to feel that she was responsible for all of her husband's failures.
I agree. I think that is part of it. These women feel like they aren't allowed to say no to men sexually and if the men stray, then they weren’t enough of whatever. Women aren't a series of holes for a man and you don’t have to do anything, ever. That makes me so mad! I do think this is way beyond just a Christian faith. I think they are in deep in a cult. All she has done is try harder and have more children. I wish I could help her.
Kristianna is so amazing. I hope you invite her to do more videos
This Bill Gothard is not just scary but Jim Jones-scary.
philbyification, not all of them are dumb as dirt though. The problem doesn't lay in the level of their intelligence but rather in his ability to play into and manipulate fears and emotions. That is the reason people who are highly intelligent can even be duped into joining cults. All you have to do is be able to read into a person's fears, doubts, and emotional state and then assess the kind of charismatic manipulation they will respond to most readily. After you have done that, apply a combination of negative spin doctoring to what ever you want to demonize and positive spin doctoring to what ever tripe you are selling and bam, you have a cult. That or a self help guru.
So in other words, they aren't stupid. They just crave things that everyone does, and those things are love, acceptance, and a way to make it from one day to the next. They just ran into bad information on how to get those things.
philbyification - I believe the correct word you should have used is "ignorant" not dumb, which literally means, not able to speak, WHICH as I am typing this it occurs to me that "dumb" followers just might be another "useful" result that Gothard was trying to achieve in addition to "ignorance". The followers are purposely and pathologically kept ignorant, to prevent questioning. In almost every story I have read or watched, about pretty much any cult, survivors ultimately began their journey to escape because of "knowledge" of the truth, no matter how minute the nugget of truth may be, something piqued their interest and their desire for answers outweighed their fear of reprisal, EVEN THOUGH they have been taught that even thoughts can be sins and must be controlled.
My mother attended a Basic Youth Conflicts seminar in 1974 in the Coliseum in Oakland California. She claims that she was born again at that time. I was two years old. She went on to be an abusive and controlling woman and it was a nightmare of a childhood. I had no idea that she was in a cult. This all makes a lot of sense. She was such a nightmare that I can barely refer to her as my mom. One of the things that she said all my life was that if I did not honor my mother, which she would use as obey her, then I would die young. It really put me off Christianity all of my life until I later found Jesus as an adult. Now, I am learning to follow the Holy Spirit rather than a ministry. I thought as a child that of this was Christianity, then I had no desire to be a part of it. While I forgive my mother, she has not changed.
“Follow the Holy Spirit instead of a ministry.” Yes!!!
Love this Chris! Very well done video very professional...
😊 💕 ✌
Excellent job, Chris and Kristiana!
I'm only listening through headphones, was there a estimate on membership?
Not a precise estimate because it's impossible to know given the nebulous nature of seminar attendance and application of Gothard's materials.
The Christian cults usually hit some pretty big numbers. People can be scary as hell some times. Thanks Chris!
It's clear to me that several people commenting recently either didn't watch the whole thing, didn't read comments from other posters and the answers they received to the same questions they are asking, or didn't listen to the information in the film/completely missed the point. UGH!!! People, if you are going to comment, watch the whole thing before you do so that you can present at least a little bit of logic in your comment. I mean REALLY.
Starting around 2005-6, he started the "power of one accord." I spent 3 years in one of his programs and was told that I broke the power of one accord and that God was going to stop blessing the group unless I was removed. It defiantly fucked with me mentally.
Another very enlightening account. I definitely believe you and Kristina should continue with the next episode.
This was incredibly interesting. I have never been part of Bill Gothard's organization, but I've dealt with aspects of it from the outside. None of it was positive. I'm a Conservative Christian (my own grandmother thought I was too conservative!) but the Gothard people I have met considered me to be liberal and worldly. Before I got married, I lived on my own and had a small house. I was told by Gothard's people that I was sinning by not living with my parents until I married. I asked them to show me from the Bible how it was a sin for a single woman to live on her own, and they said, "Rachel and Leah didn't go off and get an apartment. They lived with their father until they married Jacob." WHAT??? They used a dysfunctional, deceptive, polygamous family as an example? This showed me that they didn't even know how to read the Bible. They took the events and culture of the Bible as commands. There are commands in scripture, but nowhere are we told to pattern our lives after the events in the Bible. We don't go build an ark like Noah! We don't lower people out of cities in a basket like Paul. We are to have a relationship with God, and He guides us. We don't just copy things in the Bible that were never intended as commands. I was also told by a Gothard person that women don't need to know math! That deeply offends me. I'm no feminist--not by a long shot, but I think men and women need and should have the same education. Between my husband and myself, I'm more mathematically-inclined, and I balance the checkbook, etc. I actually enjoy it. My husband enjoys focusing on other things. A wonderful Christian friend of mine did some mission work with people who followed Gothard. She was told that she was defrauding the men because her clothing fit her (it wasn't provocative or revealing by any normal standard). She wore a modest pair of slacks abd a nice blouse. They said women can't wear pants, because the area between your legs makes an arrow pointing up your crotch. REALLY? What pervert even thinks like that? Gothard, I guess. They made her go buy clothes several sizes too big in order to be godly enough for them. She was deeply hurt by this. Being the godly woman of character she is, she honored those over her, but she didn't agree. I have never seen anything positive cone out of Bill Gothard's movement.
wow - what about men wearing trousers then? They should be in tunics to as in OT times and some eastern cultures today (the scots kilt would be too short)
I find it odd that people would follow a man who taught the Lord is in control of the womb, and complementarism marriage~man is the authority over wife, yet he was never married!! What a quack!
I want to talk about my experience with a lifetime of gothard teaching and my road to healing. Please interview me. They have destroyed lives and caused the deaths of many people.
34:45 Is that why Michelle Duggar says, "Expectations ruin relationships"? I've heard her say that on their show a few times...
so glad to see you revisiting this group
Where did you find the video of the Pearl's in the Kristiana interview? These practices have been and are used by some of the families I know. It is so scary!
It took some searching. Found it on UA-cam.
It is a shame and disgrace to take what the Bible teaches then clearly distort it. Thank you for this presentation.
GIRRLL! Your hair is so CUTE :D I would be interested in hearing more
I love that you cut your hair. I’m guessing that is considered against “the rules”. It looks beautiful.
It's revealing how all the cults use the same MO. They have the same root, and I do believe the same source, and I don't mean only "satan."
Absolutely loved the video, I have an idea for the next video Duggars and Bates who are part of this ILBP cult
I would love to hear more about this. I know a few families who follow this claptrap idea and find myself at a loss to understand it. But from what was covered in this video, I'm starting to wonder about just WHY their children are so well behaved in public.
Also, I homeschooled my child from 4th grade through high school. We used a secular curriculum. Do you have ANY idea how difficult that was to find? Especially in areas like history and science? Damned near impossible! The Pearle's were often quoted in various online groups I joined for ideas and support. Damned near impossible to find secular groups as well--so much so I started one as all the other groups in my area were religious. The teachings of those people are far more abusive than just the blanket training. Children are to be hit with PVC pipes--as they don't show bruises as easily as belts or wooden paddles. Across the back of the legs is the preferred spot. I got kicked out of more than one group for my intolerance of this kind of thing--happily so.
As I said, I can't even begin to understand how anyone could follow such utter bullshit, but I know people who do. I do hope they don't use those methods and are just lucky to have well-behaved children. Mine is one of those kinds of kids so I know they exist.
Thank you both so much for shining a light on this topic. I really do hope there will be more.
That is a very good point about the availability of secular homeschooling materials. And as far as the PVC pipe goes - OMG!
It's quarter-inch plumbing supply line, correct?
I don't know the specifics, but that sounds about right. One of the groups I got tossed from was because I asked one follower of the Pearle method when was the last time his god took a pipe to the back of his legs for doing something he wasn't supposed to do. Seems turning their logic around on them is a no-no.
If ever such "parents" are brought up on formal charges of child abuse, these homeschooling forums would be a good source of evidence. 😠
One thing not mentioned in the video is circa 2006, Gothard started the power of one accord (I.e. agreeing with him) If you violated the one accord, he would blame you for God retaining his blessing. I was told that it would be my fault if God withheld his blessing when I was at one of his facilities. This led me into deep depression suicide attempts (long time ago fine now) and a general hatred for all organized religion. This video is spot on accurate.
Great presentation! The two of you make a great team. I find this to be very interesting and will love to know more about it.
Great show very informative. I just bought a set of the Nature Scripture books at a local library book sale because the art was so good in them. I had no idea they were connected to such depravity. I will have to move them to my banned books section in my home , I call it the library of irony due to the nature of the dichotomy of subject and purpose. But great art is great art so they are worthy of keeping. I will however attach a disclaimer of their origin.
Does Kristiana have a relationship with her parents today? If not, does either side ever reach out to the other? As much as I read /hear about 'disconnection' or 'shunning,' I still find it very difficult to wrap my head around. It's really quite mind-blowing.
No, she does not really. Check out my interview with her.
At 6:19 it shows material from back in the day. "Cause: When a father is too strict in his discipline. Effect: His children have their spirits broken". Ironic. This is explains how they operate now and what the effects are.
This was fascinating and thorough. Thank you both
I was involved in this as a young parent. Thankfully, I woke up to the ugliness of the teachings.
Blanket training is the same this as putting up an invisible fence for your dog (it works, but I still think its cruel). Can we do the same to the leaders of IBLP, if they even say the wrong word we get to wack him upside the head with a 2 x 4.
Chris, have a great time at Howdycon
My parents used a playpen with us, but they never smacked us to keep us in a contained space, let alone lured us *on purpose* into trying to leave so that they could hit us. Big difference!
Beach8 I agree beat the living hell out of ANYONE involved with this crap!!!! Including the Pearls!!!!
@Andrea Mendenhall a slap on the leg isn't fine if you were just encouraging your child to do the thing you are now slapping them for. That's sick and messed up.
@Andrea Mendenhall Have you ever heard of a babysitter rather than hitting your kids to for leaving a blanket after you just lured them off the blanket? When your kids grow up to cut off all contact with you, I hope you aren't too surprised.
@@jglobetrotter2830
That teaches them not to trust those who lured them who also hit them. It violates trust. People who do that are violators.
Please address Michael and Debi Pearl.
I've seen women and children so ruined by their teaching.
Have you watched the interview with Kristiana? They speak about it there and go into some detail.