That box! I remember that box! So many fond memories around that box. I remember dming with that box. I put a troll in the first room fighting a first level character. Not understanding hit dice was an understatement. 😉
Great advice. I came to the same conclusion years ago about the dungeons not making logical sense for the most part so I also started creating dungeons that would make sense over time. Most of the time they were more like natural cave systems or long abandoned mines.
Thanks, Brian. I've had a few comments regarding logic in the game recently. It seems it may be even more prevalent among older gamers like me but that could be me reading more into it than is there. Maybe it becomes something you desire more of over time?
Quite possibly. I know I started thinking about different aspects of the game over the years and wanting them to appear more plausible. I started playing in 81 or 82 with the Moldvay/Cook edition then moved to AD&D a few years later.
Verisimilitude is definitely something to go for. One of my big issues though is getting stuck too much to whether every detail makes sense on every possible scale. Not too tight, not too loose seems to apply.
I've been remaking all the old module maps into bigger 3D maps where 1"=600 feet. they're more like the gameboards I used to see the older kids playing D&D with in my area back in the 90s. I think they're great for exploring and encourages breaking up the party to investigate something I put in the forest or a tower on the hill. As far as dungeons and minis I used to go all out with them, but I have found its much quicker and easier on my players to use just these plaster tiles without walls I made - lot less standing up for us "old" 40 year olds.
Brings back memories. For Dungeon Geomorphs, the random dungeon tables near the end of the DM's Guide were useful. Random generation of dungeons, for placing monsters, etc. B1 is a bit like that as well. Then most people probably figured out that monsters wouldn't stay in the same room for years, made no sense.
Great subject! I'm all for verisimilitude and the design of the adventure site is where that should really begin! Location, function, form. Dungeon draft looks interesting.....
Hey Ant! Thanks for the comment. You really should have a look at Dungeon Draft. I wouldn't use it all the time, but it's great now and again for certain situations.
Cragmaw hideout, Cragmaw castle, Death house are only a few of the settings we have laid out with Dwarven Forge modular terrain in detail. I use DF heavily in all my runs with Sirenscape. This is also coming from an 80s kid who used to run with graph paper. It is pretty amazing what you can do today, with DF and printed terrain from PLA and Resin Printers (I supplement with my own prints from both).
Agreed. I love the 3D printing components available out there. I'm still a graph paper guy, but every now and then I 3d print something to jazz things up.
Set up three stationary cameras and record at the same time. One close up of the older gentleman, one close up of the younger gentleman and. I wide shot. In a video editor you can cut and paste for a smoother effect than what is currently presented.
Really cool video. I also try to have logical reasons for dungeons, cities, countries, etc. I took Keep on the Borderlands and adapted the Keep itself, who built it and why, re-did and added some rooms and areas within it, and created key NPCs and a reason for them being there. I also tweaked the nearby caverns, and created a reason for all of those species, who don't all necessarily "play nice" together, to actually be there, and tied it all in to the geopolitical reality of the area. The Keep is a newly-constructed outpost against an expansive, Evil (yes, they deserve the capital E. Think the worst, most bloodthirsty aspects of the Aztecs and Mongols, and quite willing to ally with evil humanoid species to achieve their ends) nation that is nearby and getting closer. Throw in some "realpolitik" on the part of some of the "Good" nations, and it makes for an interesting border area, along with unclaimed wilderness and all of the beasties that can exist there. Fun for everyone! Well, for some values of fun. I'm definitely enjoying your videos, and looking forward to seeing more.
Great advice! I think we all go through this experience, starting with a very simple structure and as the years go by we enrich the experience and taylor it to our own taste. That is what makes RPGs so amazing. By listening to you guys, I also become aware of how little the system matters, since any style of game can come to life in any system if the people at the table want it to. Cheers! *Edit: I only use Graph Paper. I love drawing the dungeon room by room in front of the players. It builds suspense and immersion for us.
Yeah I'm with you on the old school, it leaves more to the imagination as it let's the players fill in some of the gaps in the mind's eye, just Two major things that I keep in design is a dungeon was used as a castle or keep would have as cellars in houses, this was was for the most part the same idea to be storages in case of siege, later became infamously useful to store prisoners out of the way as well. Next is Towers construction All and I do mean all midevil towers have one single aspect in common, again and again is that's the wider shins, or better known as counterclockwise is how every stairway will always be running around in the tower.this is due and done by simply logic stratagem 101 in defensive maneuver considering majority of folks are right handed thus, weaponry wielding by Attackers are at the disadvantages, of both strikes, at an upwards climb!( mostly hitting the wall as defenders have room to attack downwards).
Young Warlock should have gotten old warlock a new hat for fathers day! I've seen close to 20 vids from you 2 and old warlock wears his W hat. Not sure what the W means? I suggest one of your cool stickers popped onto a hat. I'm not rippin on the hat, but a little change is good for videos. This was a really cool video, I really like old warlocks, warlord dungeon. Really nice. Dungeon Draft is the best 20$ I ever spent. When i run games at a table IRL now days I use the back of Gift wrapping paper, and a thin piece of old plexi glass and use dry/erase markers to quickly map out the encounters as we go if there needs to be a room to scale and such. You can make quick drawings to convey thigs as well. I think its a 3 foot by 4 foot plexi glass. its just an old picture frames plexi glass. I run a VTT game as well on roll 20 and i use dungeon draft, and wonder draft all the time for that game. And the fact that the creator has said you could use the maps in a book you are creating just give them credit.
Glad you liked the video! It's his Washington nationals hat. He doesn't even like baseball, just the hat. and definitely, Dungeon Draft is a heck of a program that we love a lot. Thanks for the comment, and keep your sword arm free!
Its funny how those of us that started way back as DM’s independently came to the same conclusion with development of the dungeon to make it something other than a random hack and slash (though nothing wrong with that from time to time still ha-ha) Good video guys
I've heard this same comment from some others who started back when we did. You're right, and I'm also curious why we all gravitated the same way when there were so few external influences on the development of our individual games. Unless there's an influence we all shared that I'm not recognizing. This might be a further video topic. Thanks Scott!
@@theoldwarlock Maybe it was an age thing or something in a Dragon magazine? As there was no internet back then and I am in Australia so it’s unlikely a mutual contact etc I am curious too and I would be keen to hear any hypothesis you come up with in the future Cheers
Thanks for this video, I enjoyed it! It's a great example of a 'prescriptive' approach to dungeon design. You could, alternatively, have history come out of play and have a more 'emergent' experience. :)
Can y’all please make a video on how to run a dungeon. I understand that before 5e there was a turn order for dungeons with 10 minute rounds. Can you explain the system or tell us where to find it?
This is super old, but you can get the D&D basic edition PdF for quite cheap at the DM’s guild. Basically, every set of exploration actions took a 10 minute “turn”. So moving 90’, searching an area of the room, disarming a trap, these all took more or less a turn. (You will want to let different characters all do something in that turn). Every 5 turns, they would need to rest for a turn or take a penalty on their rolls. You check for random happenings every turn (roll a d6, on a 1 you roll on a random happenings table). Torches last 6 turns, lanterns last 24 turns. It only sort of works for 5e because of the way resources like light work in 5e vs Basic D&D or AD&D.
True, but I've found things suddenly seem to fall into place after you've worked on them for awhile. It's like blank areas almost fill themselves in after a certain point.
Expressions of power are external and obvious (like the Norman castle building in Wales and Ireland) Maybe a prison complex for dissidents but not a fortress, that makes no sense.
Great video! Really good discussion on the different aspects of creating quality areas to explore with a group. Personally, I like all of the different takes on presentation. Graph paper, artistic paper maps, 3D printing, large displays mounted underneath tabletops... It's all capable of providing amazing gaming experiences. There are just so many particular aspects of the gaming table and surrounding area that can enhance D&D, and it doesn't have to always be the same. Lighting, smells (like good food at the table - wings are my fave, lol), ambient sounds... It all contributes. There is one video I distinctly remember watching probably over ten years ago now, and thinking, "this is going to make D&D a much bigger national hobby," Microsoft was pushing the idea of its first Surface monitor. This is before they announced the Surface tablets - ua-cam.com/video/6VfpVYYQzHs/v-deo.html (damn, can't believe this was 15 years ago, lol)... now, this video only hints at some of the tech they demonstrated with the cameras and music devices, they referred to some of these interactive items as "tokens" that the surface OS would interact with. That was about the time 3D printing came about too - and I believed that D&D players would be able to purchase a small platform for miniatures which would act as a token on the table, and then that mini would be used to interact with the DM's game world by moving inventory, displaying stats (in a way the player / DM controlled so some things remained hidden), showing statuses, etc. Players would have a token, and the DM would have tokens he could assign relational ID's to as he moved monsters, objects and NPC's on and off of the table. It seemed like a perfect combination of technologies, and not long after MakerBot was released and just felt like another piece of the puzzle. Later, I remember thinking the DM could have a Cintiq style artist tablet with a pen used to control the session and the tokens, and players could use phones or smaller tablets. Then when Pokemon Go came out, I distincly remember adding the concept of augmented reality to that ideal gaming experience concept. Something like the Microsoft Surface type table is still coming to market eventually, and there are already custom systems around that do all it promised and more, but I believe its like will still become an everyday thing in many households. So the dream that AR + an interactive surface display + smart phones + 3D printing is coming. Some people are already using a system like that for D&D, but I still think we haven't seen the future yet where some specific combination of technologies will take the world by storm and make a pseudo tabletop rpg game played as a group more popular than almost any form of entertainment we've ever seen. Some people might argue that AR alone will suplant that whole notion, and an online infrastructure will mean you just play alone, but I doubt it would compete with the right combination of the things above... The surface table and 3D printed tokens add a strong tangability factor that AR only can never replicate, and there's always going to be a massive potential market for games that require people to be at the same table. Anyway, all that said, pen and paper are nearly impossible to beat. It is just so scalable, and like you guys mentioned, D&D is all about imagination. The other things will still be neat - but the investment and time requirements for buying everything, setting it up, and updating it session after session with new assets are huge limitations.
Agreed. There are so many cool things to run at one’s table now it’s hard to choose. To be honest, paper and pencil will always be my go to. Easiest and best.
That box! I remember that box! So many fond memories around that box. I remember dming with that box. I put a troll in the first room fighting a first level character. Not understanding hit dice was an understatement. 😉
Great advice. I came to the same conclusion years ago about the dungeons not making logical sense for the most part so I also started creating dungeons that would make sense over time. Most of the time they were more like natural cave systems or long abandoned mines.
Thanks, Brian. I've had a few comments regarding logic in the game recently. It seems it may be even more prevalent among older gamers like me but that could be me reading more into it than is there. Maybe it becomes something you desire more of over time?
Quite possibly. I know I started thinking about different aspects of the game over the years and wanting them to appear more plausible. I started playing in 81 or 82 with the Moldvay/Cook edition then moved to AD&D a few years later.
Verisimilitude is definitely something to go for. One of my big issues though is getting stuck too much to whether every detail makes sense on every possible scale. Not too tight, not too loose seems to apply.
I've been remaking all the old module maps into bigger 3D maps where 1"=600 feet. they're more like the gameboards I used to see the older kids playing D&D with in my area back in the 90s. I think they're great for exploring and encourages breaking up the party to investigate something I put in the forest or a tower on the hill. As far as dungeons and minis I used to go all out with them, but I have found its much quicker and easier on my players to use just these plaster tiles without walls I made - lot less standing up for us "old" 40 year olds.
Brings back memories. For Dungeon Geomorphs, the random dungeon tables near the end of the DM's Guide were useful. Random generation of dungeons, for placing monsters, etc. B1 is a bit like that as well. Then most people probably figured out that monsters wouldn't stay in the same room for years, made no sense.
Great subject! I'm all for verisimilitude and the design of the adventure site is where that should really begin! Location, function, form. Dungeon draft looks interesting.....
Hey Ant! Thanks for the comment. You really should have a look at Dungeon Draft. I wouldn't use it all the time, but it's great now and again for certain situations.
Cragmaw hideout, Cragmaw castle, Death house are only a few of the settings we have laid out with Dwarven Forge modular terrain in detail. I use DF heavily in all my runs with Sirenscape. This is also coming from an 80s kid who used to run with graph paper. It is pretty amazing what you can do today, with DF and printed terrain from PLA and Resin Printers (I supplement with my own prints from both).
Agreed. I love the 3D printing components available out there. I'm still a graph paper guy, but every now and then I 3d print something to jazz things up.
I honestly think that logical layouts and good, sensible floorplans outperforms "Jaquay'ed" dungeons that prioritize loops and non-linearity.
Set up three stationary cameras and record at the same time. One close up of the older gentleman, one close up of the younger gentleman and. I wide shot. In a video editor you can cut and paste for a smoother effect than what is currently presented.
Really cool video. I also try to have logical reasons for dungeons, cities, countries, etc. I took Keep on the Borderlands and adapted the Keep itself, who built it and why, re-did and added some rooms and areas within it, and created key NPCs and a reason for them being there. I also tweaked the nearby caverns, and created a reason for all of those species, who don't all necessarily "play nice" together, to actually be there, and tied it all in to the geopolitical reality of the area. The Keep is a newly-constructed outpost against an expansive, Evil (yes, they deserve the capital E. Think the worst, most bloodthirsty aspects of the Aztecs and Mongols, and quite willing to ally with evil humanoid species to achieve their ends) nation that is nearby and getting closer. Throw in some "realpolitik" on the part of some of the "Good" nations, and it makes for an interesting border area, along with unclaimed wilderness and all of the beasties that can exist there. Fun for everyone! Well, for some values of fun. I'm definitely enjoying your videos, and looking forward to seeing more.
Thanks Michael. We're glad you're enjoying our content.
Great advice!
I think we all go through this experience, starting with a very simple structure and as the years go by we enrich the experience and taylor it to our own taste. That is what makes RPGs so amazing.
By listening to you guys, I also become aware of how little the system matters, since any style of game can come to life in any system if the people at the table want it to.
Cheers!
*Edit: I only use Graph Paper. I love drawing the dungeon room by room in front of the players. It builds suspense and immersion for us.
Nothing like good old graph paper. Keep your sword arm free!
Yeah I'm with you on the old school, it leaves more to the imagination as it let's the players fill in some of the gaps in the mind's eye, just Two major things that I keep in design is a dungeon was used as a castle or keep would have as cellars in houses, this was was for the most part the same idea to be storages in case of siege, later became infamously useful to store prisoners out of the way as well. Next is Towers construction All and I do mean all midevil towers have one single aspect in common, again and again is that's the wider shins, or better known as counterclockwise is how every stairway will always be running around in the tower.this is due and done by simply logic stratagem 101 in defensive maneuver considering majority of folks are right handed thus, weaponry wielding by Attackers are at the disadvantages, of both strikes, at an upwards climb!( mostly hitting the wall as defenders have room to attack downwards).
Young Warlock should have gotten old warlock a new hat for fathers day! I've seen close to 20 vids from you 2 and old warlock wears his W hat. Not sure what the W means? I suggest one of your cool stickers popped onto a hat. I'm not rippin on the hat, but a little change is good for videos. This was a really cool video, I really like old warlocks, warlord dungeon. Really nice. Dungeon Draft is the best 20$ I ever spent. When i run games at a table IRL now days I use the back of Gift wrapping paper, and a thin piece of old plexi glass and use dry/erase markers to quickly map out the encounters as we go if there needs to be a room to scale and such. You can make quick drawings to convey thigs as well. I think its a 3 foot by 4 foot plexi glass. its just an old picture frames plexi glass. I run a VTT game as well on roll 20 and i use dungeon draft, and wonder draft all the time for that game. And the fact that the creator has said you could use the maps in a book you are creating just give them credit.
Glad you liked the video! It's his Washington nationals hat. He doesn't even like baseball, just the hat. and definitely, Dungeon Draft is a heck of a program that we love a lot. Thanks for the comment, and keep your sword arm free!
Its funny how those of us that started way back as DM’s independently came to the same conclusion with development of the dungeon to make it something other than a random hack and slash (though nothing wrong with that from time to time still ha-ha)
Good video guys
I've heard this same comment from some others who started back when we did. You're right, and I'm also curious why we all gravitated the same way when there were so few external influences on the development of our individual games. Unless there's an influence we all shared that I'm not recognizing. This might be a further video topic. Thanks Scott!
@@theoldwarlock
Maybe it was an age thing or something in a Dragon magazine? As there was no internet back then and I am in Australia so it’s unlikely a mutual contact etc
I am curious too and I would be keen to hear any hypothesis you come up with in the future
Cheers
Very nice, thanks for the help and advice. Keep up the good work
Thanks DMMJ! We appreciate you letting us know.
Thanks for this video, I enjoyed it! It's a great example of a 'prescriptive' approach to dungeon design. You could, alternatively, have history come out of play and have a more 'emergent' experience. :)
It is interesting to listen to how people starting playing.
Hello Stirling. We may have more on that topic at a later date.
Can y’all please make a video on how to run a dungeon. I understand that before 5e there was a turn order for dungeons with 10 minute rounds. Can you explain the system or tell us where to find it?
This is super old, but you can get the D&D basic edition PdF for quite cheap at the DM’s guild.
Basically, every set of exploration actions took a 10 minute “turn”. So moving 90’, searching an area of the room, disarming a trap, these all took more or less a turn. (You will want to let different characters all do something in that turn). Every 5 turns, they would need to rest for a turn or take a penalty on their rolls. You check for random happenings every turn (roll a d6, on a 1 you roll on a random happenings table). Torches last 6 turns, lanterns last 24 turns.
It only sort of works for 5e because of the way resources like light work in 5e vs Basic D&D or AD&D.
Good stuff! Thank you! I would add various randomization tools such as Tome of Adventure Design or Worlds Without Number.
We'll take a look at your suggestions, Paavo. Thanks!
@@theoldwarlock And I'm looking forward to getting Table Fables II which you brought up. It's the only one I could get atm. (I try to avoid Amazon)
I see some Fat Dragon Games 3D-printed miniatures and terrain!
Hey DF! I’m a real fan of Fat Dragon. Easily printed models with no supports. Very well thought out designs. And I love their light up stuff!
"if i had a dollar for every peice of graph paper..."
Great Vid, boys :) Always Love your content. Be safe and STAY warm in this SNOWFALL :)
I've been working on my own keep on the boarder lands. It has been hard and slow going, not easy to make a ecosystem.
True, but I've found things suddenly seem to fall into place after you've worked on them for awhile. It's like blank areas almost fill themselves in after a certain point.
@@theoldwarlock you give me hope. I shall forge ahead. Thanks for the reply.😁
Calvin, Gene, he called us "Sophisticated"!
Oh wait, I was referring to some other people I was playing with at the time.
@@theoldwarlock Canadian Girl Friend type "other people"!
Nice video guys.
Thanks, John!
Expressions of power are external and obvious (like the Norman castle building in Wales and Ireland) Maybe a prison complex for dissidents but not a fortress, that makes no sense.
Great video! Really good discussion on the different aspects of creating quality areas to explore with a group.
Personally, I like all of the different takes on presentation. Graph paper, artistic paper maps, 3D printing, large displays mounted underneath tabletops... It's all capable of providing amazing gaming experiences. There are just so many particular aspects of the gaming table and surrounding area that can enhance D&D, and it doesn't have to always be the same. Lighting, smells (like good food at the table - wings are my fave, lol), ambient sounds... It all contributes.
There is one video I distinctly remember watching probably over ten years ago now, and thinking, "this is going to make D&D a much bigger national hobby," Microsoft was pushing the idea of its first Surface monitor. This is before they announced the Surface tablets - ua-cam.com/video/6VfpVYYQzHs/v-deo.html (damn, can't believe this was 15 years ago, lol)... now, this video only hints at some of the tech they demonstrated with the cameras and music devices, they referred to some of these interactive items as "tokens" that the surface OS would interact with. That was about the time 3D printing came about too - and I believed that D&D players would be able to purchase a small platform for miniatures which would act as a token on the table, and then that mini would be used to interact with the DM's game world by moving inventory, displaying stats (in a way the player / DM controlled so some things remained hidden), showing statuses, etc. Players would have a token, and the DM would have tokens he could assign relational ID's to as he moved monsters, objects and NPC's on and off of the table. It seemed like a perfect combination of technologies, and not long after MakerBot was released and just felt like another piece of the puzzle.
Later, I remember thinking the DM could have a Cintiq style artist tablet with a pen used to control the session and the tokens, and players could use phones or smaller tablets. Then when Pokemon Go came out, I distincly remember adding the concept of augmented reality to that ideal gaming experience concept.
Something like the Microsoft Surface type table is still coming to market eventually, and there are already custom systems around that do all it promised and more, but I believe its like will still become an everyday thing in many households.
So the dream that AR + an interactive surface display + smart phones + 3D printing is coming. Some people are already using a system like that for D&D, but I still think we haven't seen the future yet where some specific combination of technologies will take the world by storm and make a pseudo tabletop rpg game played as a group more popular than almost any form of entertainment we've ever seen.
Some people might argue that AR alone will suplant that whole notion, and an online infrastructure will mean you just play alone, but I doubt it would compete with the right combination of the things above... The surface table and 3D printed tokens add a strong tangability factor that AR only can never replicate, and there's always going to be a massive potential market for games that require people to be at the same table.
Anyway, all that said, pen and paper are nearly impossible to beat. It is just so scalable, and like you guys mentioned, D&D is all about imagination. The other things will still be neat - but the investment and time requirements for buying everything, setting it up, and updating it session after session with new assets are huge limitations.
Agreed. There are so many cool things to run at one’s table now it’s hard to choose. To be honest, paper and pencil will always be my go to. Easiest and best.
Pretty sure Cal's called us a lot of things. Just sayin'.
Honestly, you should do a podcast giving young men advice on how to become you.
Thanks for the compliment, Barbados!