Kind of strangely worded premise. Deists are theists. You can be a non-Deist theist, but you can't be a non-theist Deist. No Deist would argue that theism is wrong. They would argue that revelation and scripture are unreliable. Despite knowing this, you point to the Bible as evidence against Deism, then go on a rant about atheism and that belief system as if it relates to the main point, which is whether Deism is right or wrong. There's no connection between Deism and atheism. I'm baffled by everything in this video.
Theism and deism dont mix. The explanation to our universe is deistic but ask a christian apologist to describe heaven and they will give you a polar opposite description (theistic description) about plain of existence in heaven than we have here in this existence (earth). Currently there are ZERO arguments for theism as ALL theistic arguments use deism which should be alarming if you are a theist. Deism is closer to atheism than theism. The only difference between deism and atheism in philosophical arguments is a small perception error otherwise atheist and Deists agree on every single topic but one. When it comes to theism and deism, the similarities are much smaller meaning that there is a greater difference between theism and deism than there is between atheism and deism... this means deism is closer to atheism (in fact a deist is often described as an atheist because they are against theism, so theist should NOT use deistic arguments to try to show theism as that is incorrect). Since there are no theistic arguments for god in existence (meaning any argument for god that does not use deism) then there is no way to rationally or coherently justify theism since its impossible to have a theistic argument for god. The way this universe is set up makes it impossible for theism to be justified in a rational and coherent way since no theistic argument is even possible. This would mean that a theistic god (if one exists) ISNT concerned with belief in Him being rational or justified which would then be a contradiction to His own creation of the laws of logic... and according to the laws of non contradiction, that would mean it would be impossible for Him to want belief in Him to be irrational or unable to be justified... so since it is impossible for Him to want that based off of His own laws of logic for us then it means the theistic god CANNOT possibly exist as it would be a contradiction to His own creation). You are wrong that you cannot be a non-theist deist as a deist is basically an a-theist. If you try to imagine a theistic god and then try to imagine a deistic god then they will share a lot of the same qualities but at their core, both will be polar opposites form each other, that is why theism isnt the same as deism.
If you doubt this then try to make a theistic argument without using deism(or deistic qualities) in your argument... you cannot without using unnatural means since theism require unnatural revelations of god such as a talking burning bush, or a disembodied voice, or divine dreams, or scripture etc... meaning that theism cannot be known naturally, it must be obtained through unjustified(unnatural) ways.... so it means that stances against theism are perfectly justified and rational.
@@kevinshirley9344Ну так то теизм появился раньше деизма, поэтому аргумент деистический в сущности является теистическим, т.е деисты заимствуют аргументы. Исконно деистический аргумент является теистическим, так как деисты их по сути позаимствовали у философов и богословов. Поэтому в наследственной иерархии верховенство занимает теизм как идеология, нежели деизм. Это раз. Два, помимо философских аргументов в пользу бога, которые действительно никогда не говорят об конкретном боге, что является кстати ложным, но следует из вашего комментария. У нас есть исторические свидетельства существования тех или иных людей. К примеру Иисуса Христа. Три, почему мы считаем, что бог создал законы логики, и при этом им подчиняется? Почему мы вообще считаем, что можем познать бога через рациональный метод, к примеру метод логического рассуждения. Один из аргументов теистов, именно теистов, потому что деисты, повторюсь, крадут наши аргументы, ибо исторически мы были первее, заключается в том, что бога нельзя увидеть, потрогать и так далее., потому что тем самым мы изменяем состояние бога, а если бог есть абсолют, то мы не должны иметь возможность изменять его характеристики. Из этого вытекает, что познание бога рациональным путём также невозможно. В целом познание бога вытекая из этого аргумента невозможно, поэтому тут деисты проигрывают. Четыре, возвращаясь к логике, из чего мы исходим, когда считаем, что бог подчиняется законам, созданным им же? Почему мы считаем, что логика является следствием прямого сотворения богом, а не например просто эволюционным следствием нашего обезьяньего мышления. Ещё Хайдеггер критиковал западных философов и их попытки рационализировать бога. Доводя до конца, хочется спросить, рационализируя бога, не подвергаем ли мы его антропоморфизации и не является ли это глупостью само по себе?
@@бмбм-ы2э 1. Yes... Theism appeared before anything else as theism is a claim which is why atheism is the counter negative claim. Non belief in gods was always a thing prior to theism, but the term atheism was not. Deism is a reflection of theism so theism claim was first.....2....There really are not any direct evidence of any individual specific to the bible itself, meaning that historical figures such as Pilot are not specific to the bible as they would have been known prior to the stories of the NT. Those specific to the bible however, do not have any real evidence to their existence... includes Jesus. Historians "grant" that he existed because there were many supposed Messiah's during this time that had followings, but do not have any real evidence to it....3. The way that "laws" are viewed between atheist and theists are vastly different. Theists view the "laws" as something "written" either physically or metaphorically in the heavens that are "governed". Scientists and atheists do not view it that way. "Laws" of logic or laws of the universe are not "actual laws"... they are products of cause and effect that produce a pattern that is consistent which we call "laws". They are not written, constructed, or governed. Theists need to understand the difference as theist have a misunderstanding of the term "laws" in science/universe/philosophy... its a semantics issue for theists. The understanding of logic stems from there being a limited number of responses any intelligent agent/species can have. There are going trends or common paths available. It does not mean there is an intelligence behind logic...example.... During the age of enlightenment, it was discovered that the philosophy of secularism was the best way to secure individual liberty and the sharing of free ideas. This led to a movement that spread throughout the world in the 1700's and reshaped governments in the US and in the EU as well as many nations in Asia. If secularism was the best method then the source (or cause of) of logic cannot be theism (a god or gods are not responsible for logic). Secularism was the idea that science, philosophy, governing, and logic needed to be independent of theism. Meaning that theism was the black sheep.... need some proof?... Here is a question that shows the irrationality of theism that proves the age of enlightenment discoveries correct about secularism...."Where in reality/universe is knowledge of theism naturally acquired without mediators or intermediaries?"... there isnt a single source of knowledge of theism independent of mediators or intermediaries at all. All other knowledge available to us is independent of mediators or intermediaries so any knowledge that requires mediators or intermediaries is knowledge that is not natural and any knowledge that is not natural is irrational.
@@kevinshirley9344 У нас есть исторические свидетельства существования Иисуса Христа, как минимум свидетельства иудеев, которые не были заинтересованы в защите его личности. Складывается впечатления, что вы не очень осведомлены об исторических аргументах в пользу существования Иисуса. Без негатива, далее я читать не стану, я очень уставший, но ценю ваш труд. И также советую почитать на тему историчности Христа разные источники. Всего хорошего и простите за мой русский, я плохо владею английским.
Why can't Deism be that God doesn't bother with us ANYMORE? I lean towards believing that God is like some sort of Master Engineer. And he set time,space and matter in motion that allowed for us to come to past. He worked out some kinks. Made some adjustments, perfections, and added some aesthetics (maybe in the form of miracles) and grabbed some popcorn for the show.. He even could've gotten back up a couple times when he saw an angle or had an idea about making his creation cooler, more, or less volatile. Or whatever He desired to do... Maybe he gets up, and every time a "miracle" happens we're just seeing the result of God's rare interference. God put LIFE into a universe of physics. That's something to LOVE with everything you have, in and of itself. But the notion that He loves all humans, INDIVIDUALLY, as His own children; seems ridiculous. So many of us die and are born every second, He'd be an emotional wreck, constantly. Loving us as a well-oiled marvel of machinery, that He conjured and meticulously placed and graced in the midst of the rest of His creation.... Seems more God-like. I'm completely aware that trying to bring rationale to supernatural questions and concerns is, itself, irrational. I just disagree that miracles void Deism. When they very well could be the "scheduled maintenance" God has to, or chooses to do on humanity
good belief, im in the same boat lol. I like the idea that some parts of the bible make sense - like, theres parts where they say god even feels - 'regret' for making us - seeing that satan on earth, and sin - went too far kinda thing - which makes more sense with a deist system - there was a movie clip on youtube shorts i saw that made that happen - showed god making humans, and a few angels letting them get fire, then blowing it out because god didnt give it to them - then getting angry, when they messed up, throwing elephants to run at the humans to kill them - but they escape to a cave - god sitting down, going to sleep - and waking up to find humans in the 21st century lol.
Jesus has sure come and intervened in my life. He delivered me from over 10 years of depression and addiction that left me hospitalized twice. He lead me to a wife who fears Him and gave us two beautiful girls. Now we are singing a new song to glorify Jesus before we see Him face to face. Jesus revealed a God who enters into our suffering and makes all things new ❤️🙏🏻
Amen. Testimonies of the saved and born again are also great evidence for God and His intervention in our lives. Millions upon millions of testimonies of the once spiritually dead but now alive in Jesus Christ can't be ignored. A transformed heart and life is a miracle in itself. God bless you.
@@dannyc9903 He Himself is the express image of the invisible God. To know Jesus / Yeshua is to know The God who stepped out of the narrative world and into the material world specifically to make God plain the world. He loves you
even deism is inconclusive. where did god come come from? how did god get his infinite knowledge, from where? how did he get his infinite powers? subscribing to deism only leads to many questions that can't be answered.
actually it does not. as Richard Dawkins says extreme complexity comes after simplicity. to have the universe started by something unimaginably complex doesn't make sense, does it?@@heckinbasedandinkpilledoct7459
@@secondson1186 I have watched plenty of Frank's videos. They all fail for a multitude of reasons. Are you familiar with his claims on space, time, and matter?
@@secondson1186 Ok. So Frank is notorious for making claims like for something to make space, time, and matter it can't be made of those things and has to be outside of them. So he concludes that his god is responsible. An interesting claim. But here is the problem. What testable evidence does he or anyone have to verify such a claim as factual? What method did Frank use to observe beyond our universe to know that there is no space, time, or matter beyond our universe? The universe is expanding to fast for us to see past the universal boundary. So how does he know his claim is true when he can't gather testable evidence to show it is true?
If God is all knowing, seeing and powerful, there would be no reason to intervene after creating our universe because God, being what it is, would have designed all eventualities within it. There wouldn't be free will any other way. As a Scientist / Engineer / Deist, I am comforted by this ideology as it gives me purpose to learn as much as I can of what God has left for us to learn and share those teachings with the coming generations. Furthermore, I find it insulting to God that people feel it necessary to think God would intervene on its own perfection.
Many of the early American leaders in ending slavery were more deist than theist. I believe it is not mentioned by modern churchs because they are not so in their beliefs and perhaps territorial, looking negatively upon different logical interpretations of scripture. I believe both atheists and Christians are illogically territorial in their beliefs, much like politics.
@@kagemushashien8394 well that’s where you fall into a contradiction that Christians love to use. “Well that person not a true Christian” well then let me ask you this if no Christian is perfect and everyone only obeys the parts of the Bible that they selected given that no one’s perfect, then what the hell is a true Christian then?
How isnt it possible for whatever created the universre to encode morality into it and set the way for human life into motion from the beginning? He's making it out that this creator isn't actually capable of doing certain things. Also if theism is the only reasonable belief and the universe was created specifically for humans, why did he wait nearly 14 billion years to put us in it? Nothing about theism adds up from a reasonable view
@@alexismachuca4736 So many.. Take god himself. A theistic god is a contradiction of attributes. Take the garden of eden scenario for example. God either A) already knew his creations would immediately disobey him and either 1-could not or 2-chose not to stop it causing sin and allow evil to grow and spread, resulting in him having to repeatedly massacre and kill 99% of his creation. B) God had no idea that his creations would disobey him. It wasn't possible for him to know about the future of his creation. Which means god is not outside of time, he can only be in the present. Which means god is either A) not all present and all knowing. Or B) god is not love. Option C) is that god was deistisc. He built a garden with ingredients for life with its own will. God did not choose 2 different paths of either compliance or anguish for his creation, god simply wrote the code for life and let it build its own path. Theism is just an attempt to feel a personal connection to this process.
well, because not every human is moral - so... sin is a thing, minimum. and yeah, deism makes more sense - it he simply made a machine, sorta - which had the universe made - put in the intention to make earth - clicked start, and it fast-forwarded to the point earth is made - or he made the universe, left for work, and returned and it took this long for earth to pop into existence kinda thing
Jesus said if my testimony is only about me my testimony is not true, John 5:30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me. 31 “If I alone bear witness about myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the witness HE bears about ME is true
@@JamesRichardWiley I know him and he knows me, he doesn't hide from anyone who really wants to look for him but if your heart is twisted well you need to ask him for truth and guidance. If you want to look at his power well he will in his great day many will perish for not listening and just complain but many other who really look for him will be saved.
@@JamesRichardWiley Ezekiel 39:6 “‘And I will send fire against Maʹgog and against those who are inhabiting the islands in security, and they will have to know that I am Jehovah. 7 I will make my holy name known among my people Israel, and I WILL NOT ALLOW MY HOLY NAME to be profaned any longer; and the nations WILL HAVE TO KNOW that I am Jehovah, the Holy One in Israel.’ 8 “‘Yes, this is coming, and it will be done,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. ‘This is the day I have spoken about"
@Lunatic Sorry, Garry was oddly struck down by a bolt of lightning 6 months ago. Not a cloud in the sky. Dambdest thing ever! Anyway, i'm an athiest and I wouldn't mind chatting so i'll step in for him. No i'm not familiar with the Daniel prophecies, What do they say?
@a The book of Daniel is confirmed to have been written around 200BCE after most of those events already happened, in fact, at the time it was written, the greek empire had not yet fallen but Daniel makes it clear that all of these things would happen BEFORE the fall of the greek empire. If you want to know how scholars came to know and demonstrate how they know the book of daniel was written AFTER most of these things happened then there are plenty of sources to look at... So if Daniel is one thing you use to show reason for your faith I would throw out that one as a reason if I were you.
@@toma3447 I think you Christians have forgotten the point of prayer and what it actually does and does not do. 1. It is not to command or ask god to do things. 2. Prayer (praying for someone) is meant to be personal between two people and not generic or non personal words. This means you have to reach the other person on a personal level. 3. Prayer can be without words at all. 4. Prayer is about having a deep connection with someone else, even a stranger. Its these reasons that your "blessing" (same as prayer) will be useless for you and me because its not a personal blessing. When you pray for a stranger without that stranger being part of the interaction, then the whole point of prayer is lost on the one praying... You know the slogan "Thoughts and prayers"? Well they are useless for a reason!
"if god wants to show his love, he must interact with humankind". but wouldn't that interfere with free will. also one could argue that you wouldn't know if its more moral to interfere vs not interfering
Interacting with mankind is not interfere with free will the same way that a mother or father interacting with their child doesn't interfere with the child's free will. the mother and father can interact with their child and tell them what is right and what is wrong but the child can make his/her own decisions and his/her decisions can follow what the parents teach the child or the child can reject the parents teachings and follow their own way which may lead to a path of what is wrong. God interacts with humans in the sense of telling us what we should and should not do and give us do's and don'ts but he leaves the choice for us to make so no interacting with his own creation does not interfere with free will. You have the choice to either follow his teachings or reject his teachings.
No he is not. He was invented by anonymous, biased, superstitious authors decades after his alleged life. They can't agree on his date of birth, genealogy , miracles, date of death or his "resurrection ". The bible has more holes than a second hand dartboard. ....
@@benjaminfrankart4872 I would love 2 know how many contradictions there are in the bible. I would guess 2-300. The gospels alone disagree on so many details, they cannot be taken seriously. Not to mention acts and the epistles....Paul barely mentions anything from the gospels
@@benjaminfrankart4872 and trying to out-do each other. Marks jesus is unable to perform miracles in a certain town because of people's lack of Faith but matthew changes it to that Jesus was unwilling, not unable. One of the craziest stories is Matthews earthquake story, where bodies return from the dead, leave the graves and walk into Jerusalem, very strange that the only person who noticed this was matthew when he decided to write in down 50 years later.....mmmm?
@@alanmurray5963 Not even skeptical atheist scholars would agree with the nonsense you just wrote. It is agreed that the Jesus of history existed. Even if we didn’t have the bible. We still know Jesus existed from hostile, pagan and Jewish sources about Him. We can know Jesus was a wise man, he was an exorcist who performed miracles, he died by crucifixion under Pilate, and his followers claimed he rose again from the dead. Jesus crucifixion is considered one of the most certain facts of history, and his burial, empty tomb, and resurrection appearances are also regarded as historical by even non Christian scholars. The best explanation of these facts is not only that Jesus existed, but that he was the divine son of God who rose from the dead. All the other theories, whether it be conspiracy, mythic or hallucination utterly fail to explain away the available data, and so while you can claim we can’t know with certainty, its certainly more reasonable to believe Jesus rose again based on the evidence.
This is not entirely accurate. While Deists have always rejected the notion of direct Divine intervention by suspending "the Laws of Nature", nonetheless, while *some* modern-day Deists may believe that God does not interact with humanity at all, this is a belief held by very few, if any, of the Classical Deists. Also the distinction between Deism and Theism seems a bit like making a distinction between horses and mammals. I mean horses *Are* mammals but not all mammals are horses.
@@ashley_brown6106 you are right they can't, but when I talked about miracles, I'm talking about the idea that God is behind them. God creates the system, but we influence the outcomes using probability. It is all chance. Life is full of randomness. Just because you are a great fighter with great skill gives you are higher chance to win. But there is always someone better that you to strip you of you title. This has nothing to do with God. As a deist God made this universe and left it. God does not play favorites. It is all chance, based on your actions that produce consequences.
Words only go so far... Dreams go all the way (into the Universe) the lowest common denominator of the human is Food, Shelter, Comfort the highest common denominator is the Dream World ...sans the physical, the mind accesses perfect time/space ambiance for a nightly trip (catnap fever) beyond lyrics ...the big bang opens the gates of Pandora's Box (Paradox) ...once you experience a Lucid Dream you will never be the same and you cannot share the knowledge without falling into an academic category (stereotype)
Most learned Atheists do respect fine tuning but at most say its T.Paines Deism. Deism is similar to God in Genesis saying "my spirit shall not always strive with man." whether it's disgust at sin or whatever, Deism needs to answer What did God find more interesting than earth? Is it Heaven? Jesus said May yr will be done on earth as it is done in Heaven" Im craving a ciggarette thinking about it.
Do you honestly believe God only interest is Earth? There are many versions of Deism, btw. Read for example "Compassionate Deism and the Grammar of Permission" by R. Hall to get a different perspective :)
If Jesus said if you believe in the Father who sent me from heaven you'll not be Judge why most people cant believe in the one who sent Jesus? John 5:24 Most truly I say to you, whoever HEARS my word and believes THE ONE WHO SENT ME has everlasting life, and he does NOT come into judgment but has passed over from death to life.
Sounds like you're trying to separate Jesus Christ from the Father. "I and My Father are one.” John 10:30 " Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58 Jesus said to him, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? John 14:9 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:14 "Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6
@@festushaggen2563 and the Word (Jesus) was with God (The Father) John 17:5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was - who is teaching you all this verses wrong?
@@festushaggen2563 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6 - Correct no one goes to Jehovah unless trough Jesus, no one else like Muhamed from Islam.
@@festushaggen2563 If trinity is correct, then all the apostles are wrong. According to Peter, John and the Apostles Jehovah glorified and resurrected Jesus and don't even matter to most Christians Acts 3: 13 The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus Acts 2:32 God resurrected Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. Acts 13:33 God has completely fulfilled it to us, their children, by resurrecting Jesus; just as it is written in the second psalm: ‘You are my son; today I have become your father.’ Acts 5: 30 The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus Galatians 1: Paul, an apostle, neither from men nor through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him up from the dead - Jehovah of Armies is the name of our Glorious Father! (Exodus 6:3)KING JAMES
You go tell a mother who lost her child to cancer, or a man who lost his legs in a war, or a family that suffered death and loss in a tsunami, or a person begging to take their pancreating cancer away... That there is an intervening God. And yes. Im talking about Christians going through this the boogy man non believers or people of other religions. It happens every day! I want an answer
Romans 8:28-30 “And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified”
@@JamesRichardWileyJohn 3:19-21 “And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God”
I am a long time deist, and he has several things wrong about deism. First, deists do believe in a "divine architect" (aka God) that designed the universe and set it in motion. But he is wrong that deists believe God just abandoned us and walked away. No, God's creation also contain the natural laws that drive the universe, such as evolution, and thus there's no need for God to actively control every aspect of the universe. Work smarter, not harder! If God gave us free will, then we make our choices and live with the consequences, whether they are good or bad. That's why bad things can happen to good people; they are subject to the outcomes of choice, even if the choice is made by someone else. Second, every piece of scientific evidence that might point toward a divine architect only supports deism, not any type of theism. Many people will use the Fine-tuned Universe Theory to demonstrate that the universe has precision to it, which deists do believe, but then they magically associate that with theism and a God that is in control of it all. That is done erroneously. There is no connecting bridge to get from an architect as the prime mover to a being that loves you, made laws on how to live, etc. Third, Jesus is just another story of about a blood sacrifice. Those stories permeated archaic times. Practically every culture on the planet used blood sacrifices at some point in time to appease the god(s). If God were truly omniscient and omnipotent, then It could simply wave a divine hand and remove whatever evil, sickness, etc. might exist in the world. Religions like to use systems of control in order to hold power and influence over people. The inerrant Bible, the last prophet, catechism 100 for the Catholics, the concept of Hell, etc. These are all man made constructs. If there's any evidence of God, it only points to a deistic version.
Theism and deism dont mix. The explanation to our universe is deistic but ask a christian apologist to describe heaven and they will give you a polar opposite description about plain of existence in heaven than we have here in this existence (earth). Currently there are ZERO arguments for theism as ALL theistic arguments use deism which should be alarming if you are a theist. Deism is closer to atheism than theism. The only difference between deism and atheism in philosophical arguments is a small perception error otherwise atheist and Deists agree on every single topic but one. When it comes to theism and deism, the similarities are much smaller meaning that there is a greater difference between theism and deism than there is between atheism and deism... this means deism is closer to atheism (in fact a deist is often described as an atheist, so theist should NOT use deistic arguments to try to show theism as that is incorrect). Since there are no theistic arguments for god in existence (meaning any argument for god that does not use deism) then there is no way to rationally or coherently justify theism since its impossible to have a theistic argument for god. The way this universe is set up makes it impossible for theism to be justified in a rational and coherent way since no theistic argument is even possible. This would mean that a theistic god (if one exists) ISNT concerned with belief in Him being rational or justified which would then be a contradiction to His own creation of the laws of logic... and according to the laws of non contradiction, that would mean it would be impossible for Him to want belief in Him to be irrational or unable to be justified... so since it is impossible for Him to want that based off of His own laws of logic for us then it means the theistic god CANNOT possibly exist as it would be a contradiction to His own creation). If you doubt this then try to make a theistic argument without using deism(or deistic qualities) in your argument.
@@alanbaraka9800 Well it’s logically impossible for the universe to be eternal. So space time and matter has to have a finite beginning. And it’s logically impossible for a non-personal cause to change in such a way that space time and matter would go from a state of non existence to a state of existence. Does gravity choose to do what it does? No. It just does what it does. So this cause must be personal because of this kind of change that was made. The way I see it, theism is not a probability argument. It’s not “the most likely possibility.” It’s the only possible answer. And that’s based on fundamental unchanging truths. So it’s not like we just need more time to discover something new. It’s a fundamental necessity
@@thetannernation "Well it’s logically impossible for the universe to be eternal." Not unlike how people once thought it was logically impossible for the Earth to not be flat. What you personally think is or isn't logical doesn't by default equate to what is real. You need testable evidence to show something is true. "So space time and matter has to have a finite beginning." Even if that were true that doesn't mean someone had to make them. Your stance lacks testable evidence. "And it’s logically impossible for a non-personal cause to change in such a way that space time and matter would go from a state of non existence to a state of existence." This is what's known as an argument from ignorance fallacy. You don't know if it could or was another way so you concluded it was your god. That's not a conclusion backed up by testable evidence. That's at best your claim. And you don't verify a claim with a claim. "So this cause must be personal because of this kind of change that was made." More argument from ignorance fallacy. You claim but can't demonstrate via testable evidence. We know how gravity works because we have testable evidence to link the gravitational force with the mass of objects. But what testable evidence do you have to show what if anything is beyond our universe? Especially considering we have no method to observe beyond our universe since it is expanding to fast. "It’s the only possible answer." So it's the only possible answer and you verified this with your complete and utter lack of testable evidence? See what I mean about argument from ignorance fallacy? "And that’s based on fundamental unchanging truths." Such as? "So it’s not like we just need more time to discover something new. It’s a fundamental necessity". Says the one who lacks the testable evidence to verify that claim.
@@alanbaraka9800 its not that its logically impossible for universe to be eternal, its that its not eternal in the first place, einstein believed the universe is eternal but in the 1920s he admitted it had a beginning, same goes for atheists like stephen hawkings and lawrence krauss so ya its proven universe aint eternal
@@ahmedesam5024 "so ya its proven universe aint eternal". Our local representation of our universe did have a beginning via the big bang. But how can you show the universe isn't eternal? Do you or they know what is or isn't beyond our universe? Do you have testable evidence to show what will happen to our universe in 1 billion or 1 trillion years? Because if you don't have such testable evidence then we don't know if our universe is or isn't eternal due to insufficient evidence.
@Logical Atheist "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." -Galileo Galilei
@@ScriptureFirst the problem is there is no human that is flawlessly innocent so all humans would be condemned to hell but that is why God provided a way for us to be saved which is through Jesus Christ.
You cannot get Theism from Deism.... Every argument for a theistic god in existence is actually a Deistic argument rather than a theistic argument...Example... ask any theist to explain the deistic arguments to why our current plain of existence is deistic in nature created by a theistic god and then ask that same theist to describe Heaven... they will describe two different plains of existence that contradict.... In one (earth) god is not self evident, where death exists and thousands of religions exist, as well as how free will is described, which would appear to be a deistic god in reality yet... they will describe polar opposite view for heaven for each on of those topics. It means that if you imagine a perfect deistic god and then imagine a perfect theistic god, they will share a lot of similar traits but at their core the two will be extreme opposites from each other as evident by the question above (this plain of existence shows a deistic god yet the "afterlife" describes a theistic one). Deism is closer to atheism by the way, theism is the third wheel. There are no theistic arguments which means theism isnt rational.
I would identify a lot of what pro-theism says, is simply blended into understandings of transcendence, immaterial, and intelligent design quality of a universe. Deism permits observer agency for pondering about creator/god-like design, for love and spiritualness would not be necessary for cosmic constructions, ethereal existences, or formations of stellar places. Human-centric/Earthen- based beliefs are important to challenge and dispute. Monotheisms are what we have granted them to be (whether in doctrine or not). Deism is in-depth philosophy for deeper reaches within structure and fabric of cosmic/ dimensional areas, and how complex designer sentience is, purely.
Do you have any evidence that supports your deity is not imaginary? Were the Greek gods legend or real? Were the Egyptian gods real or legend? Were the Roman gods real or legend? Were the Aztec and Mayan and Hawaiian gods real or legend? How about the Norse gods... real or legend?
Well, all he can say is "The gods of the gentiles are demons" -Ps95:5 and then just it basically means that from his perspective they all were real ;) This explanation however has its dark side. If all the nations apart from small tribe of Israel were worshipping devils, why did God let this to happen? Why did He reveal Himself inly to a handful of people letting so many live and die in ignorance and darkness? It doesn't make sence!
@@logicalatheist1065 you start from the premise that all mythology is not true or tells events that aren't which is a fallacy and a false claim. I recommend you to read Hamlet's Mill: An Essay Investigating the Origins of Human Knowledge and Its Transmission Through Myth
Theism comes from the Greek word meaning God. It's Theos. And Deism comes from the Latin word Deus, which also means God. Theism is the belief in a personal constant interventionalist god directly or indirectly. Deism is the belief in an impersonal god who created and oversees the universe, but who neither has nor desires to have a personal relationship with human beings. The term Deism was coined in the early 20th century at the beginning of the Scientific Revolution, the Age of Reason and Enlightenment. It was a time when human rationality, ingenuity, and agency were beginning to take more centre stage. The long term conclusions are obvious as science develops exponentially.
Um..No. Theism simply means the belief in deities or a deity. That's it. You're over-defining it. Deism (a particular or specific kind or type of Theism) is the belief, on purely rational grounds, in the existence of deity, but without accepting the so-called "Divine Revelations " implied in religious dogma. Beyond that, Deists hold various different beliefs. This should not be surprising given that Deism is not a dogmatic belief system of any sort.
@@scotsway1 Scott Stevenson, there are many variations, definitions, and explanations. I gave a summary, but we can go much deeper. DEISM Deism is the belief in the existence of God solely based on rational thought without any reliance on revealed religions or religious authority. Deism emphasizes the concept of natural theology (that is, God's existence is revealed through nature). Deists, who believe God created the universe but remains apart from it, aren't supposed to believe in prayer or that God intervenes in history Belief in God based on reason rather than revelation or the teaching of any specific religion is known as deism. The most prominent modern-day monotheistic religions include Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. In contrast to monotheism, deism is the belief that at least one deity exists and created the world, but that the creator(s), though transcendent and supreme, does/do not alter the original plan for the universe. THEISM Theism is the belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe. Theism states that the existence and continuance of the universe are owed to one supreme Being, who is distinct from Creation. What are two types of theism? Henotheism: The viewpoint/belief that there may be more than one deity, but only one of them is worshiped. ... Kathenotheism: The viewpoint/belief that there is more than one deity, but only one deity is worshiped at a time or ever, and another may be worthy of worship at another time or place. “A theist believes there is a God who made and governs all creation, but does not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, nor in a divine revelation. A deist believes there is a God who created all things, but does not believe in His superintendence and government.” There are many more views on the interpretation.
@@samjall9216 God isnt 'hiding'. He is just leaving us alone. Meaning, if He was to reveal Himself to the world( for example, the moment anyone speaks bad of Him and then He strikes them with lightning, and someone else witnessed hearing His voice saying something like 'DONT DO THAT AGAIN' ) then we would all worship Him out of fear. We would call Him a tyrant. There would be no free will, hence, no love. We would simply be robots. It would be like another law in science..'1st Law states that God is real' and then its tested and whatever. You get the point??
Imagine having a job like Frank does where people give you money to talk about things you "think" might be true or "appear" to be true without having a way to actually prove any of it. Pretty sweet gig you got there Frank!
If there is a god and that’s a BIG IF…Deism is the only thing that makes sense. Deism explains why bad things can happen to good people. If humans were so screwed up that God had to have his son save everyone. Which means God made mistakes in his creation?
If this were a true cross-examination, the host would've had a more comprehensive follow-up than what is offered here. He just let the subject roll off a set of platitudes that are specious -- at best.
What evidence contradicts a deistic God? For starters, humanity hasn't gone extinct yet, nor haven't we completely fallen apart. It's not man that's holding things together, it's God: 2nd Thess 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." Once his Spirit is removed from the earth, then there will nothing but chaos and destruction. Secondly, to see life coming forth into this world is evidence that it has not been abandoned by God. There's still so much beauty, still so much desire for life. If there's a desire for life then how did that get there? Only God could give such a thing, and so we struggle for life because the giver of life, presence is still among us. Lastly, how in the world have we not been blown to bits by an asteroid or meteor yet? Oh, they said it happened millions of years ago, but are we just lucky it hasn't happened again and again and again and again, or is this plantet protected? I believe it's protected, and if it's protected then it means God's watchful eye is keeping us from extinction level disaster coming from space as well. This is all even before we get biblical.
@@ParadiseLordRyu soooo, you disagree, and you believe there is no God? There is no truth? There is no light? There is no reason? By the way, eternity is circular.
You claim that Yahweh can protect an entire planet. Why was he unable to intervene to stop the murders of Hitler, Stalin, Mao or Pot? Also, we know this planet is doomed for entropic heat death. Will Yahweh intervene at that time?
Just one problem, what you claimed to be deism is not deism, or at least is not what every deist believe. Almost everything you said you believe, must deists also believe the same thing. Deism has not to do with the atheism, is just the opposite. And you said if just one very spiritual experience is true deism is false. Why, deists believe God is spirit, and has no contradiction for deists believe in the spiritual afterlife or reencarnation, for example. And all of that experiences are spiritual, even the creation of the universe by God which every deist agreed is actually a spiritual experience,.so what you claimed about deism is simple wrong. Before make an video about deism, ask to a deist what he believes and maybe you will surprised, but I'm afraid you know that what you said is wrong,.but you did it dishonestly
No Frank, actually if God really is loving being, then God would leave his children on theire own, rather than try to meddle their affairs in every turn. I mean if you are constantly doing everything by themselves, how do they ever learn to be independent, to find who they really are? Yeah it is tough, yeah it is painful, but no pain, no gain. Besides isn't suffering and persecution in the core of the christian teaching? That God doesn't intervene, doesn't mean indifference God's part, but rather that God wants to make on our own as much as possible and if we are really in hopeless situations, when we have exhausted all our options, then God may help us in a way or another, rather than hold our hand from cradle to grave in comfortable bubble. I don't see this as cruel, I see it purposeful as there is some neccessary pain we need to go through to become the person God intended us to be, at least this is how I see it.
Excuse me? That's like saying a parent is loving when abandoning their baby in the middle of the forest. God offers GUIDANCE He's not "meddlimg in our affairs" what an idiotic thing to say
@@ashley_brown6106 Well. God that doesn't meddle, is Deistic God...Someone who who created the World, but after creation doesn't meddle, unless NEEDED. That you don't participate to the world, doesn't neccesserally make you indifferent. At least I see, regardless of "official" definitions, that Deistic God is God that CAN interact with world and WILL do that if it is ABSOLUTELY neccessary, but otherwise let'ss the world to run indepently rather than be constantly be holding your hand, as also Frank seems to suggest. Besides, why the term Deism has been invented, if God naturally doesn't meddle, unless in very grave situations? That is, even Deism as a term seems to suggest that in "normal" Theism you should keep your childhish childhood faith forever and never grow out of it - sure, Paul, at the end of the famous "greatest is love" speech (hope, faith & charity) says something like "I am an adult man now and left behind that which belongs to childhood", but on the other hand that is in contradiction with Jesus himself, who says we should be child-like "as the kingdom of heaven belongs to child-like people (or something along those lines, don't remember the exact wording)" So here we have 2 problems: 1. Should I believe in deism or theism, if I had to choose between those two and why? 2. If there is contradiction between what Jesus himself teaches/taught and what one of his disciples teaches/taught, should listen more of the master or disciple? P.S. Bible (as any other religious text) is FULL of contradictions so anyone who claims otherwise is in denial - but surely, you can ALWAYS explain away even the most obvious cintradictions, if you know how...
There's some serious mental gymnastics going on here. "God is a loving being, he wouldn't just create us then leave us alone!" "But he would allow billions of people to experience cruel and unnecessary pain and suffering?" "Well, no, you see, he leaves us alone for that stuff, but he sent Jesus that one time, and that covers all the suffering, so he's still with us, but not. But he still kind of is."
In what possible universe would you understand love if suffering is unkown and non existent? Are you saying the existence of suffering and loving God is incompatible?
@@gege8747 Who said anything about "a universe where suffering is non-existent"? I said cruel and unnecessary pain and suffering. Like the kind that happens when a parent abandons a child. We send people to prison when they do this...but when your God leaves BILLIONS of people to die in child birth, die from preventable diseases, die from malnutrition (and on and on) somehow this stops being neglect and becomes...what? Teaching dead babies an important lesson about love? Have you ever actually stopped to think about what you're defending? If you knew a person who behaved like that you would call them a monster.
@@EyeMixMusic so you are saying because of the existence of sufferings/evil in this world ,the incompatibility of suffering/evil and loving God to Co-exist makes the existence of God is impossible
@@gege8747 No. I'm saying it is completely absurd to claim that billions of people have to suffer and die in order to "understand love". There is no moral justification for a God to allow this.
God is one god and only ever has been. There are many aspects to God's nature that humans in the past have worshipped. How people viewed/ worshipped God or aspects of God in the past is of little concern to how he is worshipped today. God is God.
@@Columbo-r4z Ceremonial artefacts from neanderthals are evidence for ceremonies. But are we using ceremonial artefacts to prove the resurrection? Are you equating historical information from eyewitness accounts to ceremonial artefacts? Logical fallacy: False Equivocation. Dismissed.
If you think about what deism implies. A all powerful God who is Omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent created the universe. This perfect being would create the universe exactly the way it is supposed to be. Every living being is living within the universe exactly as this being intended for reasons that will never be able to be understood by our humanly limited minds. So there would exist no conflict in heaven and really no being would be capable of even opposing God or even consider him to be wrong in any meaningful way. This all powerful beyond infinite being would do all of this instantly and probably go do something beyond our understanding while also being at every corner of our universe observing and and doing things because him being omnipresent implies that we are all part of this God.
So I guess a true all powerful God would never leave but they would also not interfere because they are perfect and make no mistakes therefore would never need to interfere because everything will ever only happen the way they intended things to go
Considering all of this…. I think it is possible to be both a deist and a Christian. Since every single encounter people have recorded speaking to God would probably just all be part of a cycle to let every creation know of the presence of a higher being who created everything for those who later desire to learn about he mysteries of the universe. When I think of God I think of a being that carefully considered all possibilities and purposefully created systems in place so that it’s creations could share and experience the beauty and horrors of existence
The father is the only one who is GOOD and not the son and not the holy spirit, according to Jesus. John 10:29 My Father (…) is greater than all " And he added; Why are you wondering what is good? No one is good except God alone. That if you want to come into life, keep the commandments. ” Mark 13:32 "As for the day and the hour, no one knows them, not even the angels in heaven; nor the Son: the Father alone knows them." The father is the only one who knows the moment of the hour and not the son and not the holy spirit, according to Jesus. The father is the only one that everyone will be subject to himself Jesus and even the holy spirit will be subject to him on the day of judgment (Paul said, "And when all things have been submitted to him, then the Son himself will be subject to him who submitted all things to him, that God may be all in all. ”(1 Corinthians 15:28).)
@@JamesRichardWiley Jesus introduced His true Father, which was not the god of the old testament. He never called Him anything but Abba and Father, and said to call no one else Father.
@@dannyc9903 science shows God is necessary. Due to the fact that the universe is expanding we know it had a beginning. No scientist has ever observed a universe that spontaneously created itself. We never see order from disorder; we never see intelligence arising from nothing. An intelligent designer is required. God is necessary. Don’t be a science denier; accept Christ.
@@poliincredible770 But your god had np beginning, he just always was! What a load of s@@t An intelligent designer?! Well he's messed up with cancer, priests that rape children, covid, the black death......I'm bored now and i haven't got a thousand years to give you everything he's screwed us with.
@@poliincredible770 An expanding universe doesn't imply it had a beginning, only that it was smaller. There is only one observable universe. No scientist has ever observed a universe that definitely spontaneously created itself. And no scientist has ever observed a universe that was definitely created. We don't know what the difference would be. We can see order arise in nature without any intelligence seemingly required. Crystals and snowflakes are examples of that. And it may be argued that biological life is an example of order and intelligence arising from natural processes too. If you believe that intelligence cannot arise from just natural processes, aren't you committing a special pleading fallacy if you argue that your God doesn't need a designer?
@@itsJPhere, The expanding universe does prove a beginning. If the universe is growing larger now, that means it had to be smaller in the past. If this is traced back far enough, then we can reach a beginning since something cannot go on shrinking for ever.
*If a God exists it would not just leave us alone but would rescue us which is what Jesus did* Why? why are you forcing your desires and wants on God? if a Deistic God exists it made it's choice to create us and then leave us to be to which it is in it's perfect right to do. Your argument is if God exists then it clearly would be personal and loving to us (which is not the case). *First problem is God got involved with the creation of life* This is a dodge and a weak one at that. Deism permits God to set the universe and the natural processes up to where life ends up developing. Theism is not true because life exists a Deistic God would be perfectly capable of just making the universe and life and then leaving us be (while i don't believe in God it makes way more sense then a personal all loving God). *God has written morality on our hearts* Wrong again morality evolved with us as a social species pretty much to help us survive also the fact is our morality does contradict bible morality so either God did not impose his morality on us or God imposed a different one then his morality on us either way you don't win (our morality contradicts bible morality such as being opposed to sexism, slavery, anti gay stuff etc). *The evidence is there for Jesus doing miracles and rising from the dead* No and no this is just wrong. The only evidence we have for that is the gospels are biased Christian accounts written by Greeks decades after the event retelling oral stories that developed overtime. That level of evidence is not good simply for the fact that the only need needed to explain the rise of the Christian story is 1 to 2 people simply having a vision or lying about it and then that story eventually spreading and getting new details (which is exactly what we have evidence for happening as later gospels give Jesus a virgin birth and made him more a magic figure then the original one Mark). *In the beginning the universe was created is the biggest miracle* The real answer is we don't know the details of that however if a Deistic God exists or if any other non Yahweh God exists then Jesus did not rise from the dead so thereby the creation of the universe by whatever God that isn't Yahweh does not prove Jesus as rising from the dead but to be very specific it has to be the Christian interpretation of that God. If it is just the Jewish God but Christianity is a false religion that developed then technically Yahweh did create the world but Jesus did not rise from the dead. So no even if somehow you could prove some God created the universe you need additional proof in order to prove Christianity is the true religion because if any other of the 3999 other religions are correct then Jesus also did not rise from the dead. Your argument is akin to saying that if the universe was created by some form of God (or God's) then that must prove that Muhammad was the final prophet of Allah who got the instructions from angel Garbrelie to create the true faith of Islam (these conclusions do not follow it is a non sequiter). *If spacetime and matter had a beginning whatever created it must transcend it and not have a beginning* This is more of God of the gaps, we don't know the process thereby we assume it is a God whom we give special properties to exclude you from needing to explain where God came from when why can't the universe have the same effect? *Only a personal being could made a choice* That does not mean that it is personal in the sense of wanting a relationship or instituting an order. A Desitic God could be just like the sims, it chooses to create us for whatever it feels like but it does not want to interact or be super personal with us this does not grant Theism. *It has to be intelligent* Yahweh does not fit that definition well thereby it can't be him. Why doesn't he? well the bible is clear God makes mistakes, he does errors, he regrets, he made mankind and then regretted he made mankind then decided to flood the world when he could simply have given heart attacks to the evil people and let the animals live (instead of a giant flood) also the whole Christian system of making a religion rely on animal sacrifice instead of choosing to forgive us without but then come up with the human sacrifice as being the only way to attone for the system he created (the most backwards approach). But even if we ignore these then our bodies are not designed in an intelligent way either, bad eyes, hips, knees, being able to choke to death because of a design flaw connecting our eating pipe with the breathing one, bad backs, bad teeth. Everything about us screams evolved animal not inteligently designed creation. *We don't know it is the Christian God* Then why spout off this nonsense which doesn't prove it is the Christian God then? if you could only get to Deism even granting your arguments then why use them? why not go specific and say this is evidence proving only Christianity is true thereby evading the possibility of arguing for the 3999 other religions that are not Christianity? *The same being who created the universe is the same being who rose from the dead* No he isn't not even according to the bible, Jesus is the son of God, he is not the same as God, he has powers but he did not create the universe at best he witnessed his father doing it but did not do it himself nor does he have all the knowledge that Yahweh has so Jesus by definition is not God even if your religion was true he would not be God (still the Messiah and the son of God but not God). *For Atheism and Deism to be true every miracle has to be false* I don't believe in miracles so that is pretty good for me, People are more likely to be delusional or have visions or have their brains conjure something or be cured at the rate of random chance or pretty much anything else then a miracle to be real and when it comes to the miracles i have seen claimed they are not very strong what you have Catholic Priests who's bodies don't rot, the miracle of the dancing sun in which people stared at the sun reported to have seen it start dancing, the trick of the fire in Palestine by the Orthodox. visions people have of Mary. These do not clear the bar for acceptance that the magic intervened into the world. Also on a final note you still have 3999 other religions to fight through because any of their God's can do magic and miracles so even if we get a real miracle which we can't deny happening you still have 3999 religions with all sorts of various God's which could have caused it too
There is no God in Deism, as in Theism. There is only the first cause. You need the person and brain in this material world. How does it apply to the cause? The answer is, it does not. Deism does not deny spirituality. It could be or could not be present. Spiritual desists as myself believe in spirituality.
@@logicalatheist1065 In Western history those are. Which religion are you talking about? Buddhism for example had Ashoka, one of the most brutal and worst kings in whole human history. In recent history, Buddhists have been very violent toward minorities, as well.
@@NavaidSyed I don't have a religion... Obviously by my name I don't believe in any gods. Spiritual religions I don't mind but ya, violence is everywhere on that subject
It's mostly a guesstiment, we know that Jesus supposedly died sometime between the year 28 AD and 33 AD so with a rough estimate at his earliest death would be sometime around 1,988 years ago which would be 33 AD. It's commonly more accepted to believe that Jesus died around 32 or 33 AD but that is how he came to the conclusion of this figure.
@@LucidVision138 a lot of moderns think the creators of the gregorian calander got the year of Jesus birth wrong, because of when King Harod died. But this is only a variance of 3-5 years, and apparently thir lines up with a known ancient celestial conjunction like the one we had recently which may have been what the wise men were talking about when they visited Harod.
@@LucidVision138 such an alleged important figure and no one knows when he was born... Lolol... So obviously man made Abrahamic nonsense, but hey some people think star trek is real and it makes them very happy.
Atheist to Christian: You created a "God of the Gaps" to explain what at first, we didn't understand. But now we know how things in the world work, so we don't need a God to explain them! Christian to Atheist: You're attempting to deny the "God who FILLED the Gaps." The Lord created all things, then gave people a mind and understanding so that we could learn and know how His creation works. You see a car, and your mind informs you there's a car maker. You see a painting, and logic and reason inform you there must be a painter. And yes, you see a watch with it's precise mechanisms, and rational thinking dictates there IS a watch maker. But then you see all the vastly more complex functioning systems in the universe at both the Micro AND Macro level and claim there's no "Universe Maker." Evidence is not the problem. Human WILL is! The ONLY reason people cannot find God is because they're not looking for Him and they don't want to find Him!
Oh my god you lot are still pushing the whole 'see a painting there must be a painter' BS. Bloody hell if you ever needed your god to write the follow up to the bible its now, as your material desperately needs updating!
It’s a problem of ecology because this argument ignores the fact that all creation is not contingent on a mind behind it. Yes, art is created by an artist, but land is created by volcanoes without a mind behind it, no different than your cells functioning without a mind behind them. This cosmological argument is so fixated on artificial creation and ignores everything we understand about natural creation.
@@dannyc9903 So what are you saying Danny? If there’s a car there’s NOT a car maker? If there’s a painting there’s NOTa painter? If there’s a watch there’s NOT a watch maker? I’m not desperate Danny. I made a logical, rational observation. You however have simply scoffed and said nothing of substance. But now is your chance to elaborate and explain your reasoning.
@@Godlimate you have made an unfounded assertion. Where did the volcanoes come from? And how do you know a mind did not create the cells to do what they did? Does a car motor function? Yes, the same as a cell functions. But again, while logic and reason dictate to YOUR mind that a mind created a functioning motor You refuse to acknowledge that there must be a mind behind an even more complex “motor.” And this makes sense how? By the way did you know that a mind is metaphysical and cannot be observed empirically? So do you believe you have a mind even though there’s no empirical evidence?
John 3:16. Jesus Christ is God's greatest intervention for us. God sending His Son to die on a cross for our sins and rise from the dead is a greater miracle than the creation of the universe itself. By Him we are saved or condemned. Repent and believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior to be saved today. Tomorrow is guaranteed to no one.
@@dannyc9903 You come up with rubbish every day, you accept new ideas and world-views and you have no solid basis. You have absolutely no solid view of reality that can be used as an alternative to the Christian worldview.
@@orthodoxinquirer5693 I have no view of reality?!! That's so funny! You reality comes from 2000 years ago! Are you still banging nails in your head to get rid of headaches?!
Believe the Gospel! You are a sinner who has broken God’s law! His standard is perfection, and you don’t measure up. That’s why Jesus Christ the Son of God came down to earth. He died for your sins, he was buried, and rose again. Trust him alone to save you!
@@velkyn1 The point is the whole law of God is broken by one sin and that's enough to condemn you to Hell. Rejection of Jesus Christ is the final unforgivable sin that seals your condemnation. Whether someone has committed one or many sins makes no difference. You'll be judged and given justice for your sins and rejection of Christ.
@@dannyc9903 By what standard of perfection do you judge God to be imperfect and not able to meet the standard of? Where does this position originate that tells you right versus wrong as well as the definition of "perfect"?
@@logicalatheist1065 and they will know outer darkness with the rest of them who deny the Only True God and His Son the Messiah Jesus. It doesn't please the Father to see any Perish but they who deny Him Jesus His Son will deny them before the Father there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in those days and they come quickly.
His argument collapsed in on it's self. The God he believes in has to save his creation my God just had to start it and knew it was perfect as it was and didn't need they're intervention. As humans we think we are the apex of God's creation. We are just one beautiful part of they're creation. Jesus is still part of my life and I live by his teachings but Jesus never claimed to be God, but he did teach how to be closer to God. The Jesus' teach I'm saved.
"If you have a faulty understanding of deism, it makes a lot less sense than christianity." Stop using an old book as "evidence" or starting from the conclusion you want to end up at and working backwards. Thats the opposite of science, logic, and even reason. If you wanna believe for any number of reasons, thats a-okay, but by doing those things, you are hurting your own cause of making disciples of all nations. Morality doesnt have to have been written on our hearts by an entity. Theres plenty of evidence showing that morality developed through natural selection during the evolution of our species and the species that came before us. Follow the evidence to come up with a conclusion, dont start with the conclusion and make up evidence to support it, thats absurd.
I was eager to know abt deism and theism. Thank u Frank. Prayers from India. Also have a doubt: is Hinduism a deistic religion? If someone reads this and knows the answer, please share ur knowledge with me, will ya.
@@Columbo-r4z yes yes. But isn't the Hindu gods not intervening in anything now? Manu christian ppl including myself had experienced god and there are many claims for that. But its really low from Hinduism. Its in this case that i have the dbt that Hinduism is a deistic religion. And also what does Hinduism holds for the future. It only talks abt an endless cycle of reincarnation
@@thekrakozhian392 Frank asserts deists believe god doesn’t intervene in our lives. I’ve never heard of this. He’s setting out conditions that favour his favourite god.
@@Columbo-r4z there are many types of beliefs in god. There's theism, deism, monotheism, polytheism, atheism, etc. He just compared one of them with theism.
@@thekrakozhian392 No he compared atheism too. Although he doesn’t understand what atheism is. He’s reshaping everything else to make his the most reasonable conclusion. As always.
yeah I see my deism... as being theist. I simply see christianity, as being flawed, because humans wrote the book. rather than relying on others for all my guidance, I looks within for some of the knowledge too. I see science as the how, theism/christianity as the why - 2 sides of the same coin - which theists and agnostics can do too, I just kinda like staying in that mindset for everything else in life too. Like - I see Jesus as being real - the basis of the whole thing, the christianity being more correct than any other - but because god didnt make the manual himself, the bible can only ever be a general book of stories, of gods wrath, and morals standards that humans decided were good enough, covered enough. Kinda like the constitution - the creators are gone - some think they wanted to be strict, other say it should change with the times, and Im kinda right in the middle - it needs to change a bit, like for segerations and removing slavery, letting us gays be seen as just, here - and that kinda thing - but 'hate speech laws' for example - bad way - unconstitutional - as it blatantly goes against the purpose of the constitution. (protecting more rights - isnt the same as restricting set-in-stone rights)
I would like to offer a rebuff to the premise that life wasn’t already in the plan of God. It would be foolish to believe that an entity that transcends space and time could not have the forethought as to create the necessary conditions to life and intelligence. Also a point that is rarely mentioned is the idea that we don’t know the entire universe and all it’s mechanisms. There are very likely layers that the intelligence of god put in place that are inconceivable to man. To think that because we don’t know how it works must mean it’s a miracle is a falsity. The natural laws God created are more complex than we could understand within our many generations of thinking on these questions. Using the Bible as a piece of evidence isn’t more valid than deism because it relies on theism being true. It is equally likely there are people born with an innate sense of these hidden layers and general purpose that choose to use their lives to guide the rest of humanity towards striving to better know God through his creation.
GOD knows everything correct? Why create us with freedom of choice knowing many would be confused and not choose a life of faith.. because it IS confusing.. and yet he was ok with many not choosing. We don't have a choice many choose God out of fear. He knows how it will end so why create it all?? Just leave us with him and not separate us at all.. why out mankind thru all this.. just asking
To take Dr. Turek's points one by one; 1. The deity that created the universe does not need to be the same one as the one that created life. 2a. Same for the morality we seem endowed with. There is no reason to assume that morality was created, or that it was created by the same deity that created the universe, or by the same deity that created life. 2b. If the creator deity were a loving deity, it would not have created suffering. 3. There is no logical connection between a possible creator deity and any assumed or believed miracle worker on earth, and we can think of a myriad different "spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, personal, intelligent" causes in addition to Dr. Turek's favorite deity. Those ideas can only be linked by a leap of faith, or as it is better known; wishful thinking. 4. As of this writing, not a single "spiritual experience, and miracle claim in the history of the world" has been proven to be true. As it is he who claims who must prove, not the other way around, this means there is no reason for anyone to be rationally convinced by any of these theistic claims.
Kind of strangely worded premise. Deists are theists. You can be a non-Deist theist, but you can't be a non-theist Deist. No Deist would argue that theism is wrong. They would argue that revelation and scripture are unreliable. Despite knowing this, you point to the Bible as evidence against Deism, then go on a rant about atheism and that belief system as if it relates to the main point, which is whether Deism is right or wrong. There's no connection between Deism and atheism. I'm baffled by everything in this video.
Well said, my thoughts exactly
Theism and deism dont mix. The explanation to our universe is deistic but ask a christian apologist to describe heaven and they will give you a polar opposite description (theistic description) about plain of existence in heaven than we have here in this existence (earth). Currently there are ZERO arguments for theism as ALL theistic arguments use deism which should be alarming if you are a theist. Deism is closer to atheism than theism. The only difference between deism and atheism in philosophical arguments is a small perception error otherwise atheist and Deists agree on every single topic but one. When it comes to theism and deism, the similarities are much smaller meaning that there is a greater difference between theism and deism than there is between atheism and deism... this means deism is closer to atheism (in fact a deist is often described as an atheist because they are against theism, so theist should NOT use deistic arguments to try to show theism as that is incorrect).
Since there are no theistic arguments for god in existence (meaning any argument for god that does not use deism) then there is no way to rationally or coherently justify theism since its impossible to have a theistic argument for god. The way this universe is set up makes it impossible for theism to be justified in a rational and coherent way since no theistic argument is even possible. This would mean that a theistic god (if one exists) ISNT concerned with belief in Him being rational or justified which would then be a contradiction to His own creation of the laws of logic... and according to the laws of non contradiction, that would mean it would be impossible for Him to want belief in Him to be irrational or unable to be justified... so since it is impossible for Him to want that based off of His own laws of logic for us then it means the theistic god CANNOT possibly exist as it would be a contradiction to His own creation). You are wrong that you cannot be a non-theist deist as a deist is basically an a-theist. If you try to imagine a theistic god and then try to imagine a deistic god then they will share a lot of the same qualities but at their core, both will be polar opposites form each other, that is why theism isnt the same as deism.
If you doubt this then try to make a theistic argument without using deism(or deistic qualities) in your argument... you cannot without using unnatural means since theism require unnatural revelations of god such as a talking burning bush, or a disembodied voice, or divine dreams, or scripture etc... meaning that theism cannot be known naturally, it must be obtained through unjustified(unnatural) ways.... so it means that stances against theism are perfectly justified and rational.
@@kevinshirley9344Ну так то теизм появился раньше деизма, поэтому аргумент деистический в сущности является теистическим, т.е деисты заимствуют аргументы. Исконно деистический аргумент является теистическим, так как деисты их по сути позаимствовали у философов и богословов. Поэтому в наследственной иерархии верховенство занимает теизм как идеология, нежели деизм. Это раз. Два, помимо философских аргументов в пользу бога, которые действительно никогда не говорят об конкретном боге, что является кстати ложным, но следует из вашего комментария. У нас есть исторические свидетельства существования тех или иных людей. К примеру Иисуса Христа. Три, почему мы считаем, что бог создал законы логики, и при этом им подчиняется? Почему мы вообще считаем, что можем познать бога через рациональный метод, к примеру метод логического рассуждения. Один из аргументов теистов, именно теистов, потому что деисты, повторюсь, крадут наши аргументы, ибо исторически мы были первее, заключается в том, что бога нельзя увидеть, потрогать и так далее., потому что тем самым мы изменяем состояние бога, а если бог есть абсолют, то мы не должны иметь возможность изменять его характеристики. Из этого вытекает, что познание бога рациональным путём также невозможно. В целом познание бога вытекая из этого аргумента невозможно, поэтому тут деисты проигрывают. Четыре, возвращаясь к логике, из чего мы исходим, когда считаем, что бог подчиняется законам, созданным им же? Почему мы считаем, что логика является следствием прямого сотворения богом, а не например просто эволюционным следствием нашего обезьяньего мышления. Ещё Хайдеггер критиковал западных философов и их попытки рационализировать бога. Доводя до конца, хочется спросить, рационализируя бога, не подвергаем ли мы его антропоморфизации и не является ли это глупостью само по себе?
@@бмбм-ы2э 1. Yes... Theism appeared before anything else as theism is a claim which is why atheism is the counter negative claim. Non belief in gods was always a thing prior to theism, but the term atheism was not. Deism is a reflection of theism so theism claim was first.....2....There really are not any direct evidence of any individual specific to the bible itself, meaning that historical figures such as Pilot are not specific to the bible as they would have been known prior to the stories of the NT. Those specific to the bible however, do not have any real evidence to their existence... includes Jesus. Historians "grant" that he existed because there were many supposed Messiah's during this time that had followings, but do not have any real evidence to it....3. The way that "laws" are viewed between atheist and theists are vastly different. Theists view the "laws" as something "written" either physically or metaphorically in the heavens that are "governed". Scientists and atheists do not view it that way. "Laws" of logic or laws of the universe are not "actual laws"... they are products of cause and effect that produce a pattern that is consistent which we call "laws". They are not written, constructed, or governed. Theists need to understand the difference as theist have a misunderstanding of the term "laws" in science/universe/philosophy... its a semantics issue for theists. The understanding of logic stems from there being a limited number of responses any intelligent agent/species can have. There are going trends or common paths available. It does not mean there is an intelligence behind logic...example.... During the age of enlightenment, it was discovered that the philosophy of secularism was the best way to secure individual liberty and the sharing of free ideas. This led to a movement that spread throughout the world in the 1700's and reshaped governments in the US and in the EU as well as many nations in Asia. If secularism was the best method then the source (or cause of) of logic cannot be theism (a god or gods are not responsible for logic). Secularism was the idea that science, philosophy, governing, and logic needed to be independent of theism. Meaning that theism was the black sheep.... need some proof?... Here is a question that shows the irrationality of theism that proves the age of enlightenment discoveries correct about secularism...."Where in reality/universe is knowledge of theism naturally acquired without mediators or intermediaries?"... there isnt a single source of knowledge of theism independent of mediators or intermediaries at all. All other knowledge available to us is independent of mediators or intermediaries so any knowledge that requires mediators or intermediaries is knowledge that is not natural and any knowledge that is not natural is irrational.
@@kevinshirley9344 У нас есть исторические свидетельства существования Иисуса Христа, как минимум свидетельства иудеев, которые не были заинтересованы в защите его личности. Складывается впечатления, что вы не очень осведомлены об исторических аргументах в пользу существования Иисуса. Без негатива, далее я читать не стану, я очень уставший, но ценю ваш труд. И также советую почитать на тему историчности Христа разные источники. Всего хорошего и простите за мой русский, я плохо владею английским.
Why can't Deism be that God doesn't bother with us ANYMORE? I lean towards believing that God is like some sort of Master Engineer. And he set time,space and matter in motion that allowed for us to come to past. He worked out some kinks. Made some adjustments, perfections, and added some aesthetics (maybe in the form of miracles) and grabbed some popcorn for the show.. He even could've gotten back up a couple times when he saw an angle or had an idea about making his creation cooler, more, or less volatile. Or whatever He desired to do... Maybe he gets up, and every time a "miracle" happens we're just seeing the result of God's rare interference. God put LIFE into a universe of physics. That's something to LOVE with everything you have, in and of itself. But the notion that He loves all humans, INDIVIDUALLY, as His own children; seems ridiculous. So many of us die and are born every second, He'd be an emotional wreck, constantly. Loving us as a well-oiled marvel of machinery, that He conjured and meticulously placed and graced in the midst of the rest of His creation.... Seems more God-like.
I'm completely aware that trying to bring rationale to supernatural questions and concerns is, itself, irrational.
I just disagree that miracles void Deism. When they very well could be the "scheduled maintenance" God has to, or chooses to do on humanity
good belief, im in the same boat lol. I like the idea that some parts of the bible make sense - like, theres parts where they say god even feels - 'regret' for making us - seeing that satan on earth, and sin - went too far kinda thing - which makes more sense with a deist system - there was a movie clip on youtube shorts i saw that made that happen - showed god making humans, and a few angels letting them get fire, then blowing it out because god didnt give it to them - then getting angry, when they messed up, throwing elephants to run at the humans to kill them - but they escape to a cave - god sitting down, going to sleep - and waking up to find humans in the 21st century lol.
As a Christian I hate how much I love this analogy lol
Jesus has sure come and intervened in my life. He delivered me from over 10 years of depression and addiction that left me hospitalized twice. He lead me to a wife who fears Him and gave us two beautiful girls. Now we are singing a new song to glorify Jesus before we see Him face to face. Jesus revealed a God who enters into our suffering and makes all things new ❤️🙏🏻
Praise the lord
Amen. Testimonies of the saved and born again are also great evidence for God and His intervention in our lives. Millions upon millions of testimonies of the once spiritually dead but now alive in Jesus Christ can't be ignored. A transformed heart and life is a miracle in itself. God bless you.
He saved me out of atheism and nihilism. He is risen.
How did jesus reveal a god?!
@@dannyc9903 He Himself is the express image of the invisible God. To know Jesus / Yeshua is to know The God who stepped out of the narrative world and into the material world specifically to make God plain the world. He loves you
The nerve of someone thinking they know how the creator of everything thinks.
Still true, he acts as if God couldn't have planted the seed, knowing the direction it will go, and let it grow on its own.
Diesm is by far the more logical conclusion of the 2
I agree! The proof for a god is pretty solid. But, the proof for a personal god is pretty weak!
even deism is inconclusive. where did god come come from? how did god get his infinite knowledge, from where? how did he get his infinite powers? subscribing to deism only leads to many questions that can't be answered.
@@onsenguy835you have to start somewhere, and a being of pure actuality/lack of potentiality makes the most sense as a starting point
actually it does not. as Richard Dawkins says extreme complexity comes after simplicity. to have the universe started by something unimaginably complex doesn't make sense, does it?@@heckinbasedandinkpilledoct7459
Deists deny miracles, and Jesus is God in the flesh! I'll stick with the theistic view.
This was actually a really good explanation, reinforced my faith thank you.
@Second Swagkage But Frank didn't show any god to exist to validate his stance about said god.
@@alanbaraka9800 he has other videos for that yes.
@@secondson1186 I have watched plenty of Frank's videos. They all fail for a multitude of reasons. Are you familiar with his claims on space, time, and matter?
@@alanbaraka9800 correct.
@@secondson1186 Ok. So Frank is notorious for making claims like for something to make space, time, and matter it can't be made of those things and has to be outside of them. So he concludes that his god is responsible. An interesting claim. But here is the problem. What testable evidence does he or anyone have to verify such a claim as factual? What method did Frank use to observe beyond our universe to know that there is no space, time, or matter beyond our universe? The universe is expanding to fast for us to see past the universal boundary. So how does he know his claim is true when he can't gather testable evidence to show it is true?
If God is all knowing, seeing and powerful, there would be no reason to intervene after creating our universe because God, being what it is, would have designed all eventualities within it. There wouldn't be free will any other way. As a Scientist / Engineer / Deist, I am comforted by this ideology as it gives me purpose to learn as much as I can of what God has left for us to learn and share those teachings with the coming generations. Furthermore, I find it insulting to God that people feel it necessary to think God would intervene on its own perfection.
Nothing in the universe is perfect though. Far from it in fact
@@trev1978 No disrespect, but how would you know perfection if you saw it? I don't believe I would know it if I saw it.
I never even heard of deism in my life before
Many of the early American leaders in ending slavery were more deist than theist. I believe it is not mentioned by modern churchs because they are not so in their beliefs and perhaps territorial, looking negatively upon different logical interpretations of scripture. I believe both atheists and Christians are illogically territorial in their beliefs, much like politics.
@Antonio Sosa then those might not be a true Christian that they claim to be.
@@kagemushashien8394 well that’s where you fall into a contradiction that Christians love to use. “Well that person not a true Christian” well then let me ask you this if no Christian is perfect and everyone only obeys the parts of the Bible that they selected given that no one’s perfect, then what the hell is a true Christian then?
@@bendurham3026 someone who uses the whole Bible, not loving one part of It.
@@bendurham3026 People do lie you know.
How isnt it possible for whatever created the universre to encode morality into it and set the way for human life into motion from the beginning? He's making it out that this creator isn't actually capable of doing certain things. Also if theism is the only reasonable belief and the universe was created specifically for humans, why did he wait nearly 14 billion years to put us in it? Nothing about theism adds up from a reasonable view
Can you give more examples of why you think theism doesn't add up
@@alexismachuca4736 So many.. Take god himself. A theistic god is a contradiction of attributes. Take the garden of eden scenario for example.
God either A) already knew his creations would immediately disobey him and either 1-could not or 2-chose not to stop it causing sin and allow evil to grow and spread, resulting in him having to repeatedly massacre and kill 99% of his creation.
B) God had no idea that his creations would disobey him. It wasn't possible for him to know about the future of his creation. Which means god is not outside of time, he can only be in the present.
Which means god is either A) not all present and all knowing.
Or B) god is not love.
Option C) is that god was deistisc. He built a garden with ingredients for life with its own will.
God did not choose 2 different paths of either compliance or anguish for his creation, god simply wrote the code for life and let it build its own path.
Theism is just an attempt to feel a personal connection to this process.
well, because not every human is moral - so... sin is a thing, minimum. and yeah, deism makes more sense - it he simply made a machine, sorta - which had the universe made - put in the intention to make earth - clicked start, and it fast-forwarded to the point earth is made - or he made the universe, left for work, and returned and it took this long for earth to pop into existence kinda thing
Jesus said if my testimony is only about me my testimony is not true, John 5:30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.
31 “If I alone bear witness about myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness about me, and I know that the witness HE bears about ME is true
Ask Yahweh to please stop hiding so we can meet and be friends.
@@JamesRichardWiley I know him and he knows me, he doesn't hide from anyone who really wants to look for him but if your heart is twisted well you need to ask him for truth and guidance. If you want to look at his power well he will in his great day many will perish for not listening and just complain but many other who really look for him will be saved.
@@JamesRichardWiley Ezekiel 39:6 “‘And I will send fire against Maʹgog and against those who are inhabiting the islands in security, and they will have to know that I am Jehovah. 7 I will make my holy name known among my people Israel, and I WILL NOT ALLOW MY HOLY NAME to be profaned any longer; and the nations WILL HAVE TO KNOW that I am Jehovah, the Holy One in Israel.’
8 “‘Yes, this is coming, and it will be done,’ declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah. ‘This is the day I have spoken about"
@@benjaminfrankart4872 James is a crazy brother
@@benjaminfrankart4872 between theism and deism?
i'm an atheist but what he's saying is very interesting and makes me wanna know the answer but it is (not) sadly impossible
@Lunatic yeah sure! what are yours
@Lunatic Sorry, Garry was oddly struck down by a bolt of lightning 6 months ago. Not a cloud in the sky. Dambdest thing ever! Anyway, i'm an athiest and I wouldn't mind chatting so i'll step in for him. No i'm not familiar with the Daniel prophecies, What do they say?
@a The book of Daniel is confirmed to have been written around 200BCE after most of those events already happened, in fact, at the time it was written, the greek empire had not yet fallen but Daniel makes it clear that all of these things would happen BEFORE the fall of the greek empire. If you want to know how scholars came to know and demonstrate how they know the book of daniel was written AFTER most of these things happened then there are plenty of sources to look at... So if Daniel is one thing you use to show reason for your faith I would throw out that one as a reason if I were you.
Let me bless you.
@@toma3447 I think you Christians have forgotten the point of prayer and what it actually does and does not do.
1. It is not to command or ask god to do things.
2. Prayer (praying for someone) is meant to be personal between two people and not generic or non personal words. This means you have to reach the other person on a personal level.
3. Prayer can be without words at all.
4. Prayer is about having a deep connection with someone else, even a stranger.
Its these reasons that your "blessing" (same as prayer) will be useless for you and me because its not a personal blessing. When you pray for a stranger without that stranger being part of the interaction, then the whole point of prayer is lost on the one praying... You know the slogan "Thoughts and prayers"? Well they are useless for a reason!
I believe in God. I believe that one being created the universe. I despise organized religion.
"if god wants to show his love, he must interact with humankind". but wouldn't that interfere with free will. also one could argue that you wouldn't know if its more moral to interfere vs not interfering
Talking to someone doesn't violate free will
If God is the creator of all things than he sets the standards and he’s above the standard.
Interacting with mankind is not interfere with free will the same way that a mother or father interacting with their child doesn't interfere with the child's free will. the mother and father can interact with their child and tell them what is right and what is wrong but the child can make his/her own decisions and his/her decisions can follow what the parents teach the child or the child can reject the parents teachings and follow their own way which may lead to a path of what is wrong.
God interacts with humans in the sense of telling us what we should and should not do and give us do's and don'ts but he leaves the choice for us to make so no interacting with his own creation does not interfere with free will. You have the choice to either follow his teachings or reject his teachings.
@Dian Robertson Jesus interacted with humankind, and he didn't take away their Free Will.
Everything that happens has been ordained by God in eternity including His interactions with people.
Jesus is the son of God
No he is not. He was invented by anonymous, biased, superstitious authors decades after his alleged life. They can't agree on his date of birth, genealogy , miracles, date of death or his "resurrection ". The bible has more holes than a second hand dartboard. ....
@@benjaminfrankart4872 I would love 2 know how many contradictions there are in the bible. I would guess 2-300. The gospels alone disagree on so many details, they cannot be taken seriously. Not to mention acts and the epistles....Paul barely mentions anything from the gospels
@@benjaminfrankart4872 and trying to out-do each other. Marks jesus is unable to perform miracles in a certain town because of people's lack of Faith but matthew changes it to that Jesus was unwilling, not unable. One of the craziest stories is Matthews earthquake story, where bodies return from the dead, leave the graves and walk into Jerusalem, very strange that the only person who noticed this was matthew when he decided to write in down 50 years later.....mmmm?
Jesus is the son of a mass murderer of innocent, unborn babies.
@@alanmurray5963 Not even skeptical atheist scholars would agree with the nonsense you just wrote. It is agreed that the Jesus of history existed. Even if we didn’t have the bible. We still know Jesus existed from hostile, pagan and Jewish sources about Him. We can know Jesus was a wise man, he was an exorcist who performed miracles, he died by crucifixion under Pilate, and his followers claimed he rose again from the dead.
Jesus crucifixion is considered one of the most certain facts of history, and his burial, empty tomb, and resurrection appearances are also regarded as historical by even non Christian scholars. The best explanation of these facts is not only that Jesus existed, but that he was the divine son of God who rose from the dead. All the other theories, whether it be conspiracy, mythic or hallucination utterly fail to explain away the available data, and so while you can claim we can’t know with certainty, its certainly more reasonable to believe Jesus rose again based on the evidence.
Neither, its inconclusive, at best.
Hello there.
This is not entirely accurate. While Deists have always rejected the notion of direct Divine intervention by suspending "the Laws of Nature", nonetheless, while *some* modern-day Deists may believe that God does not interact with humanity at all, this is a belief held by very few, if any, of the Classical Deists. Also the distinction between Deism and Theism seems a bit like making a distinction between horses and mammals. I mean horses *Are* mammals but not all mammals are horses.
That was an extremely poor and unenlightened answer.
Wouldn’t an all powerful being make everything right in the first place? Would he need us to ask him to intervene?
it's all man-made, designed to both explain natural phenomenon and for the rulers to have power and control over the masses.
Miracles can be the product of probability. Circumstance flips a coin produces consequences-Heads you are dead Tails you survive. All CHANCE.
Probability can't change physical laws you know
@@ashley_brown6106 you are right they can't, but when I talked about miracles, I'm talking about the idea that God is behind them. God creates the system, but we influence the outcomes using probability. It is all chance. Life is full of randomness. Just because you are a great fighter with great skill gives you are higher chance to win. But there is always someone better that you to strip you of you title. This has nothing to do with God. As a deist God made this universe and left it. God does not play favorites.
It is all chance, based on your actions that produce consequences.
Words only go so far...
Dreams go all the way (into the Universe)
the lowest common denominator of the human is Food, Shelter, Comfort
the highest common denominator is the Dream World
...sans the physical, the mind accesses perfect time/space ambiance for a nightly trip (catnap fever)
beyond lyrics ...the big bang opens the gates of Pandora's Box (Paradox) ...once you experience a Lucid Dream you will never be the same and you cannot share the knowledge without falling into an academic category (stereotype)
Most learned Atheists do respect fine tuning but at most say its T.Paines Deism. Deism is similar to God in Genesis saying "my spirit shall not always strive with man." whether it's disgust at sin or whatever, Deism needs to answer What did God find more interesting than earth? Is it Heaven? Jesus said May yr will be done on earth as it is done in Heaven" Im craving a ciggarette thinking about it.
There's no reason to believe any god exists
@@logicalatheist1065
If the afterlife exists, then that's a pretty good reason.
@@logicalatheist1065 nothing about you is logical
Do you honestly believe God only interest is Earth? There are many versions of Deism, btw. Read for example "Compassionate Deism and the Grammar of Permission" by R. Hall to get a different perspective :)
The problem of religions (including atheism) is that they are too humanly focused
If Jesus said if you believe in the Father who sent me from heaven you'll not be Judge why most people cant believe in the one who sent Jesus? John 5:24 Most truly I say to you, whoever HEARS my word and believes THE ONE WHO SENT ME has everlasting life, and he does NOT come into judgment but has passed over from death to life.
Sounds like you're trying to separate Jesus Christ from the Father.
"I and My Father are one.” John 10:30
" Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.” John 8:58
Jesus said to him, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 14:9
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1
"And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth." John 1:14
"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6
@@festushaggen2563 Sound like you ignore The Father because dont understand spiritual words and will be judge in the last day John 12:48-50
@@festushaggen2563 and the Word (Jesus) was with God (The Father) John 17:5 So now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory that I had alongside you before the world was - who is teaching you all this verses wrong?
@@festushaggen2563 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6
- Correct no one goes to Jehovah unless trough Jesus, no one else like Muhamed from Islam.
@@festushaggen2563 If trinity is correct, then all the apostles are wrong. According to Peter, John and the Apostles Jehovah glorified and resurrected Jesus and don't even matter to most Christians Acts 3: 13 The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our forefathers, has glorified his Servant, Jesus Acts 2:32
God resurrected Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. Acts 13:33 God has completely fulfilled it to us, their children, by resurrecting Jesus; just as it is written in the second psalm: ‘You are my son; today I have become your father.’ Acts 5: 30 The God of our forefathers raised up Jesus Galatians 1: Paul, an apostle, neither from men nor through a man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him up from the dead
- Jehovah of Armies is the name of our Glorious Father! (Exodus 6:3)KING JAMES
Good short summary!
You go tell a mother who lost her child to cancer, or a man who lost his legs in a war, or a family that suffered death and loss in a tsunami, or a person begging to take their pancreating cancer away... That there is an intervening God. And yes. Im talking about Christians going through this the boogy man non believers or people of other religions. It happens every day! I want an answer
Romans 8:28-30
“And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified”
You left out the mass murder of innocent, unborn babies that Elohim carried out while commanding you to love him.
It's true.
@@JamesRichardWileyJohn 3:19-21 “And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God”
I am a long time deist, and he has several things wrong about deism. First, deists do believe in a "divine architect" (aka God) that designed the universe and set it in motion. But he is wrong that deists believe God just abandoned us and walked away. No, God's creation also contain the natural laws that drive the universe, such as evolution, and thus there's no need for God to actively control every aspect of the universe. Work smarter, not harder! If God gave us free will, then we make our choices and live with the consequences, whether they are good or bad. That's why bad things can happen to good people; they are subject to the outcomes of choice, even if the choice is made by someone else.
Second, every piece of scientific evidence that might point toward a divine architect only supports deism, not any type of theism. Many people will use the Fine-tuned Universe Theory to demonstrate that the universe has precision to it, which deists do believe, but then they magically associate that with theism and a God that is in control of it all. That is done erroneously. There is no connecting bridge to get from an architect as the prime mover to a being that loves you, made laws on how to live, etc.
Third, Jesus is just another story of about a blood sacrifice. Those stories permeated archaic times. Practically every culture on the planet used blood sacrifices at some point in time to appease the god(s). If God were truly omniscient and omnipotent, then It could simply wave a divine hand and remove whatever evil, sickness, etc. might exist in the world. Religions like to use systems of control in order to hold power and influence over people. The inerrant Bible, the last prophet, catechism 100 for the Catholics, the concept of Hell, etc. These are all man made constructs.
If there's any evidence of God, it only points to a deistic version.
Do you believe in afterlife or a heaven or reincarnation?
Well said Dr. Frank Turek
Theism and deism dont mix. The explanation to our universe is deistic but ask a christian apologist to describe heaven and they will give you a polar opposite description about plain of existence in heaven than we have here in this existence (earth). Currently there are ZERO arguments for theism as ALL theistic arguments use deism which should be alarming if you are a theist. Deism is closer to atheism than theism. The only difference between deism and atheism in philosophical arguments is a small perception error otherwise atheist and Deists agree on every single topic but one. When it comes to theism and deism, the similarities are much smaller meaning that there is a greater difference between theism and deism than there is between atheism and deism... this means deism is closer to atheism (in fact a deist is often described as an atheist, so theist should NOT use deistic arguments to try to show theism as that is incorrect).
Since there are no theistic arguments for god in existence (meaning any argument for god that does not use deism) then there is no way to rationally or coherently justify theism since its impossible to have a theistic argument for god. The way this universe is set up makes it impossible for theism to be justified in a rational and coherent way since no theistic argument is even possible. This would mean that a theistic god (if one exists) ISNT concerned with belief in Him being rational or justified which would then be a contradiction to His own creation of the laws of logic... and according to the laws of non contradiction, that would mean it would be impossible for Him to want belief in Him to be irrational or unable to be justified... so since it is impossible for Him to want that based off of His own laws of logic for us then it means the theistic god CANNOT possibly exist as it would be a contradiction to His own creation).
If you doubt this then try to make a theistic argument without using deism(or deistic qualities) in your argument.
Dam this guy is good.
not
Atheism would be the logical position by default.
Deism / theism claims have never been supported
Absolute nonsense it’s kind of funny.
@@Mike00513 i see you've got nothing... :) I'm use to that
@@logicalatheist1065, What else was I supposed to say? Just two bald assertions.
@@Mike00513 my statement is correct, and your failure to have a rebuttal strengthens it even more
@@Mike00513 No theist has ever met their burden of proof. :)
No god has ever been demonstrated to exist.
Atheism by default is the position of logic
The world 🌎 need more of Apologists like Dr. T 💝!!!
Good Word... Very well put! Powerful! Thank you Jesus.
The universe points to a personal cause. If the cause is personal, theism must be true
@TheTannerNation how did you conclude the universe points to a personal cause?
@@alanbaraka9800
Well it’s logically impossible for the universe to be eternal. So space time and matter has to have a finite beginning.
And it’s logically impossible for a non-personal cause to change in such a way that space time and matter would go from a state of non existence to a state of existence. Does gravity choose to do what it does? No. It just does what it does. So this cause must be personal because of this kind of change that was made.
The way I see it, theism is not a probability argument. It’s not “the most likely possibility.” It’s the only possible answer. And that’s based on fundamental unchanging truths. So it’s not like we just need more time to discover something new. It’s a fundamental necessity
@@thetannernation "Well it’s logically impossible for the universe to be eternal." Not unlike how people once thought it was logically impossible for the Earth to not be flat. What you personally think is or isn't logical doesn't by default equate to what is real. You need testable evidence to show something is true. "So space time and matter has to have a finite beginning." Even if that were true that doesn't mean someone had to make them. Your stance lacks testable evidence. "And it’s logically impossible for a non-personal cause to change in such a way that space time and matter would go from a state of non existence to a state of existence." This is what's known as an argument from ignorance fallacy. You don't know if it could or was another way so you concluded it was your god. That's not a conclusion backed up by testable evidence. That's at best your claim. And you don't verify a claim with a claim. "So this cause must be personal because of this kind of change that was made." More argument from ignorance fallacy. You claim but can't demonstrate via testable evidence. We know how gravity works because we have testable evidence to link the gravitational force with the mass of objects. But what testable evidence do you have to show what if anything is beyond our universe? Especially considering we have no method to observe beyond our universe since it is expanding to fast. "It’s the only possible answer." So it's the only possible answer and you verified this with your complete and utter lack of testable evidence? See what I mean about argument from ignorance fallacy? "And that’s based on fundamental unchanging truths." Such as? "So it’s not like we just need more time to discover something new. It’s a fundamental necessity". Says the one who lacks the testable evidence to verify that claim.
@@alanbaraka9800 its not that its logically impossible for universe to be eternal, its that its not eternal in the first place,
einstein believed the universe is eternal but in the 1920s he admitted it had a beginning, same goes for atheists like stephen hawkings and lawrence krauss
so ya its proven universe aint eternal
@@ahmedesam5024 "so ya its proven universe aint eternal". Our local representation of our universe did have a beginning via the big bang. But how can you show the universe isn't eternal? Do you or they know what is or isn't beyond our universe? Do you have testable evidence to show what will happen to our universe in 1 billion or 1 trillion years? Because if you don't have such testable evidence then we don't know if our universe is or isn't eternal due to insufficient evidence.
God loves you all, it's never too late to become a Christian
No reason to believe the Christian god exists
@Logical Atheist "He who thinks half-heartedly will not believe in God; but he who really thinks has to believe in God"
-Isaac Newton
@@saintadolphus8013 no evidence = no reason to believe
- logical people
@@saintadolphus8013 irrelevant quote from Newton
@Logical Atheist "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
-Galileo Galilei
Question :
DO WE GO TO HEAVEN WHEN WE DIE???
Why would you go anywhere when you are dead? Were you somewhere before you were born?
@@itsJPhere Are u christian?
if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9 NKJV
Only those found flawlessly innocent at the judgement seat of the almighty will go to heaven.
@@ScriptureFirst the problem is there is no human that is flawlessly innocent so all humans would be condemned to hell but that is why God provided a way for us to be saved which is through Jesus Christ.
Love how Dr. Frank explains and gives the breakdown. Much can be learned. ✊🏼❤️
You cannot get Theism from Deism.... Every argument for a theistic god in existence is actually a Deistic argument rather than a theistic argument...Example... ask any theist to explain the deistic arguments to why our current plain of existence is deistic in nature created by a theistic god and then ask that same theist to describe Heaven... they will describe two different plains of existence that contradict.... In one (earth) god is not self evident, where death exists and thousands of religions exist, as well as how free will is described, which would appear to be a deistic god in reality yet... they will describe polar opposite view for heaven for each on of those topics. It means that if you imagine a perfect deistic god and then imagine a perfect theistic god, they will share a lot of similar traits but at their core the two will be extreme opposites from each other as evident by the question above (this plain of existence shows a deistic god yet the "afterlife" describes a theistic one). Deism is closer to atheism by the way, theism is the third wheel. There are no theistic arguments which means theism isnt rational.
Thank you Frank for your great work!
I would identify a lot of what pro-theism says, is simply blended into understandings of transcendence, immaterial, and intelligent design quality of a universe.
Deism permits observer agency for pondering about creator/god-like design, for love and spiritualness would not be necessary for cosmic constructions, ethereal existences, or formations of stellar places. Human-centric/Earthen- based beliefs are important to challenge and dispute.
Monotheisms are what we have granted them to be (whether in doctrine or not). Deism is in-depth philosophy for deeper reaches within structure and fabric of cosmic/ dimensional areas, and how complex designer sentience is, purely.
Do you have any evidence that supports your deity is not imaginary? Were the Greek gods legend or real?
Were the Egyptian gods real or legend?
Were the Roman gods real or legend?
Were the Aztec and Mayan and Hawaiian gods real or legend? How about the Norse gods... real or legend?
@@danbrenenstahl5673 Your religion also is mythology... try proving your gods here...
@@danbrenenstahl5673 Christianity, and the rest of the Abrahamic religions are based off mythology as well...
@@danbrenenstahl5673 facts can be supported with evidence...
No logical fallacy on my half.
Just your failure to support your claims.
Well, all he can say is "The gods of the gentiles are demons" -Ps95:5 and then just it basically means that from his perspective they all were real ;) This explanation however has its dark side. If all the nations apart from small tribe of Israel were worshipping devils, why did God let this to happen? Why did He reveal Himself inly to a handful of people letting so many live and die in ignorance and darkness? It doesn't make sence!
@@logicalatheist1065 you start from the premise that all mythology is not true or tells events that aren't which is a fallacy and a false claim. I recommend you to read Hamlet's Mill: An Essay Investigating the Origins of Human Knowledge and Its Transmission Through Myth
Intervention is only required if the creation is not perfect. God is perfect, the creation is perfect, hence no intervention is needed.
How do we know that God is perfect? It is possible that God is powerful but not perfect?
Theism comes from the Greek word meaning God. It's Theos. And Deism comes from the Latin word Deus, which also means God.
Theism is the belief in a personal constant interventionalist god directly or indirectly.
Deism is the belief in an impersonal god who created and oversees the universe, but who neither has nor desires to have a personal relationship with human beings.
The term Deism was coined in the early 20th century at the beginning of the Scientific Revolution, the Age of Reason and Enlightenment. It was a time when human rationality, ingenuity, and agency were beginning to take more centre stage.
The long term conclusions are obvious as science develops exponentially.
The word "God" replaces "I don't know".
Um..No. Theism simply means the belief in deities or a deity. That's it. You're over-defining it. Deism (a particular or specific kind or type of Theism) is the belief, on purely rational grounds, in the existence of deity, but without accepting the so-called "Divine Revelations " implied in religious dogma. Beyond that, Deists hold various different beliefs. This should not be surprising given that Deism is not a dogmatic belief system of any sort.
@@scotsway1 Scott Stevenson, there are many variations, definitions, and explanations.
I gave a summary, but we can go much deeper.
DEISM
Deism is the belief in the existence of God solely based on rational thought without any reliance on revealed religions or religious authority. Deism emphasizes the concept of natural theology (that is, God's existence is revealed through nature).
Deists, who believe God created the universe but remains apart from it, aren't supposed to believe in prayer or that God intervenes in history
Belief in God based on reason rather than revelation or the teaching of any specific religion is known as deism.
The most prominent modern-day monotheistic religions include Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. In contrast to monotheism, deism is the belief that at least one deity exists and created the world, but that the creator(s), though transcendent and supreme, does/do not alter the original plan for the universe.
THEISM
Theism is the belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe.
Theism states that the existence and continuance of the universe are owed to one supreme Being, who is distinct from Creation.
What are two types of theism?
Henotheism: The viewpoint/belief that there may be more than one deity, but only one of them is worshiped. ...
Kathenotheism: The viewpoint/belief that there is more than one deity, but only one deity is worshiped at a time or ever, and another may be worthy of worship at another time or place.
“A theist believes there is a God who made and governs all creation, but does not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, nor in a divine revelation. A deist believes there is a God who created all things, but does not believe in His superintendence and government.”
There are many more views on the interpretation.
Kinda odd that when ever a group of people make a religion, they always end up being the chosen ones... Hmm why is that? 🤔
That's a phenomena among Abrahamic religions only
Although it makes sense to suggest something or someone is responsible for all of this, we still don't know where all of this comes from.
Ask Yahweh to please stop hiding so we can meet and be friends.
@@JamesRichardWiley
True. I raised that point before. Why do you think God is hiding?
The big bang.......and evolution......
@@JamesRichardWiley He is not hiding, you are. He left us His word.
@@samjall9216 God isnt 'hiding'. He is just leaving us alone.
Meaning, if He was to reveal Himself to the world( for example, the moment anyone speaks bad of Him and then He strikes them with lightning, and someone else witnessed hearing His voice saying something like 'DONT DO THAT AGAIN' ) then we would all worship Him out of fear.
We would call Him a tyrant. There would be no free will, hence, no love. We would simply be robots.
It would be like another law in science..'1st Law states that God is real' and then its tested and whatever. You get the point??
I was watching this live!
Imagine having a job like Frank does where people give you money to talk about things you "think" might be true or "appear" to be true without having a way to actually prove any of it.
Pretty sweet gig you got there Frank!
Along with Dawkins, harris, and the Dennetts of the world.
Imagine going to a video just to insult the maker.
@@hewhositsuponfroggychair5722 they're Satan's minions, they lose, so pay them no mind.
Frank has opinions
but no testable, reliable, evidence
for his extraordinary claims.
@@kimberlymayes4061 Satan's minion - anyone who prefers testable, repeatable evidence on which to build a belief.
If there is a god and that’s a BIG IF…Deism is the only thing that makes sense. Deism explains why bad things can happen to good people. If humans were so screwed up that God had to have his son save everyone. Which means God made mistakes in his creation?
This guy is clearly from Kerala, India.
Yes 100%
Alappuzha macha!!
Yes 😀
We have some Indians here!😊
"Theism or Deism?" Pretty silly. It's like asking: "Mammals or horses"? Horses *are* Mammals. But not all mammals are horses.
Well, theism estrictly defined is the belief in a god or gods that have revealed themselves to humans, which makes it different from deism.
Neither: it points to there being no god.
Correct, no burden of proof has ever been met on any god claim
@@logicalatheist1065 Please demonstrate that there was anything material before the Big Bang.
@@waynehampson9569 why I never claimed to know what existed before the big bang
@@logicalatheist1065 If there is no God something material had to exist.
@@logicalatheist1065, Really? Tell that to some former atheists who became Christian like Lee Strobel or Elephant Philosophy a UA-camr
If this were a true cross-examination, the host would've had a more comprehensive follow-up than what is offered here. He just let the subject roll off a set of platitudes that are specious -- at best.
What evidence contradicts a deistic God? For starters, humanity hasn't gone extinct yet, nor haven't we completely fallen apart. It's not man that's holding things together, it's God: 2nd Thess 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way." Once his Spirit is removed from the earth, then there will nothing but chaos and destruction.
Secondly, to see life coming forth into this world is evidence that it has not been abandoned by God. There's still so much beauty, still so much desire for life. If there's a desire for life then how did that get there? Only God could give such a thing, and so we struggle for life because the giver of life, presence is still among us.
Lastly, how in the world have we not been blown to bits by an asteroid or meteor yet? Oh, they said it happened millions of years ago, but are we just lucky it hasn't happened again and again and again and again, or is this plantet protected? I believe it's protected, and if it's protected then it means God's watchful eye is keeping us from extinction level disaster coming from space as well.
This is all even before we get biblical.
Deism doesn’t mean that we’d be extinct or fall apart by now. You’re just using circular reasoning.
@@ParadiseLordRyu soooo, you disagree, and you believe there is no God? There is no truth? There is no light? There is no reason? By the way, eternity is circular.
You claim that Yahweh can protect an entire planet. Why was he unable to intervene to stop the murders of Hitler, Stalin, Mao or Pot? Also, we know this planet is doomed for entropic heat death. Will Yahweh intervene at that time?
This was tough to listen too. And he's being extremely dishonest. Intellectually and personally.
Heyyy Frank, can you please make a video about the Shroud of Turin
If you download the cross examined app he has 2 or 3 different podcasts about it. Search on the app for the shroud and it will show up.
@@25_September thank you! I will do it. God Bless You!
@@martinecheverria5968 you're welcome you too! Gary Habermas is the person on the podcast with Frank about the Shroud. Very interesting
@@25_September yeah, im hearing it right now, what a great man is Gary
@@25_September Hey man Frank said how if miracles are true then atheism is false. Is there a video where he expounds more on that statement?
No atheist would admit to anything the Bible claims. We have a explanations of the universe and none of them involve a god.
That's all the Bible is, baseless claims and assertions
I think deists beliefs seem more reasonable though
Awesome. Such effective information giving in a very short amount of time to make the biggest impact. HE'S ANOINTED WITH TALENT! 😊👍
Just one problem, what you claimed to be deism is not deism, or at least is not what every deist believe. Almost everything you said you believe, must deists also believe the same thing. Deism has not to do with the atheism, is just the opposite. And you said if just one very spiritual experience is true deism is false. Why, deists believe God is spirit, and has no contradiction for deists believe in the spiritual afterlife or reencarnation, for example. And all of that experiences are spiritual, even the creation of the universe by God which every deist agreed is actually a spiritual experience,.so what you claimed about deism is simple wrong. Before make an video about deism, ask to a deist what he believes and maybe you will surprised, but I'm afraid you know that what you said is wrong,.but you did it dishonestly
No Frank, actually if God really is loving being, then God would leave his children on theire own, rather than try to meddle their affairs in every turn. I mean if you are constantly doing everything by themselves, how do they ever learn to be independent, to find who they really are? Yeah it is tough, yeah it is painful, but no pain, no gain. Besides isn't suffering and persecution in the core of the christian teaching? That God doesn't intervene, doesn't mean indifference God's part, but rather that God wants to make on our own as much as possible and if we are really in hopeless situations, when we have exhausted all our options, then God may help us in a way or another, rather than hold our hand from cradle to grave in comfortable bubble. I don't see this as cruel, I see it purposeful as there is some neccessary pain we need to go through to become the person God intended us to be, at least this is how I see it.
Excuse me? That's like saying a parent is loving when abandoning their baby in the middle of the forest. God offers GUIDANCE He's not "meddlimg in our affairs" what an idiotic thing to say
@@ashley_brown6106 Well. God that doesn't meddle, is Deistic God...Someone who who created the World, but after creation doesn't meddle, unless NEEDED. That you don't participate to the world, doesn't neccesserally make you indifferent. At least I see, regardless of "official" definitions, that Deistic God is God that CAN interact with world and WILL do that if it is ABSOLUTELY neccessary, but otherwise let'ss the world to run indepently rather than be constantly be holding your hand, as also Frank seems to suggest.
Besides, why the term Deism has been invented, if God naturally doesn't meddle, unless in very grave situations? That is, even Deism as a term seems to suggest that in "normal" Theism you should keep your childhish childhood faith forever and never grow out of it - sure, Paul, at the end of the famous "greatest is love" speech (hope, faith & charity) says something like "I am an adult man now and left behind that which belongs to childhood", but on the other hand that is in contradiction with Jesus himself, who says we should be child-like "as the kingdom of heaven belongs to child-like people (or something along those lines, don't remember the exact wording)"
So here we have 2 problems:
1. Should I believe in deism or theism, if I had to choose between those two and why?
2. If there is contradiction between what Jesus himself teaches/taught and what one of his disciples teaches/taught, should listen more of the master or disciple?
P.S. Bible (as any other religious text) is FULL of contradictions so anyone who claims otherwise is in denial - but surely, you can ALWAYS explain away even the most obvious cintradictions, if you know how...
Who said God is loving?
Delusional people
@@logicalatheist1065, Random ad hominem lol.
@@Mike00513 at least I'm correct ;)
His fruits says he is loving, He said so too.
@@logicalatheist1065 Then you explain.
Its amazing that frank turek literally needs to assume his conclusion in order to support it.
What else is new? Frank has been doing that for years.
@@minhhoaidang2083 It doesn't do to presume your conclusion.
i seriously doubt he actually believes any of that superstitious nonsense.
frank begins with the "self evident" truth that the Christian God exists. he then deductively argues from there.
There's some serious mental gymnastics going on here.
"God is a loving being, he wouldn't just create us then leave us alone!"
"But he would allow billions of people to experience cruel and unnecessary pain and suffering?"
"Well, no, you see, he leaves us alone for that stuff, but he sent Jesus that one time, and that covers all the suffering, so he's still with us, but not. But he still kind of is."
In what possible universe would you understand love if suffering is unkown and non existent? Are you saying the existence of suffering and loving God is incompatible?
@@gege8747 Who said anything about "a universe where suffering is non-existent"? I said cruel and unnecessary pain and suffering. Like the kind that happens when a parent abandons a child. We send people to prison when they do this...but when your God leaves BILLIONS of people to die in child birth, die from preventable diseases, die from malnutrition (and on and on) somehow this stops being neglect and becomes...what? Teaching dead babies an important lesson about love?
Have you ever actually stopped to think about what you're defending? If you knew a person who behaved like that you would call them a monster.
@@EyeMixMusic so you are saying because of the existence of sufferings/evil in this world ,the incompatibility of suffering/evil and loving God to Co-exist makes the existence of God is impossible
@@gege8747 No. I'm saying it is completely absurd to claim that billions of people have to suffer and die in order to "understand love". There is no moral justification for a God to allow this.
Pop quiz:
When did humans first begin to create gods
and what are the total number of gods created?
Answer for 10 points:
Edgy
Better question: How is this not a genetic fallacy?
God is one god and only ever has been. There are many aspects to God's nature that humans in the past have worshipped. How people viewed/ worshipped God or aspects of God in the past is of little concern to how he is worshipped today. God is God.
Ceremonial artefacts from Neanderthal sites support the existence of rituals and symbolism. Is that a prerequisite for religious belief?
@@Columbo-r4z Ceremonial artefacts from neanderthals are evidence for ceremonies.
But are we using ceremonial artefacts to prove the resurrection?
Are you equating historical information from eyewitness accounts to ceremonial artefacts?
Logical fallacy: False Equivocation.
Dismissed.
Wouldn’t a creator let it creation do what it wants
God bless all
He is risen.
@@malvokaquila6768 He is risen.
Now what?
@@JamesRichardWiley Trust in Him and you shall arise too
@@JamesRichardWiley trust him as your savior, or don't. Your choice.
If you think about what deism implies. A all powerful God who is Omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent created the universe. This perfect being would create the universe exactly the way it is supposed to be. Every living being is living within the universe exactly as this being intended for reasons that will never be able to be understood by our humanly limited minds. So there would exist no conflict in heaven and really no being would be capable of even opposing God or even consider him to be wrong in any meaningful way. This all powerful beyond infinite being would do all of this instantly and probably go do something beyond our understanding while also being at every corner of our universe observing and and doing things because him being omnipresent implies that we are all part of this God.
So I guess a true all powerful God would never leave but they would also not interfere because they are perfect and make no mistakes therefore would never need to interfere because everything will ever only happen the way they intended things to go
Considering all of this…. I think it is possible to be both a deist and a Christian. Since every single encounter people have recorded speaking to God would probably just all be part of a cycle to let every creation know of the presence of a higher being who created everything for those who later desire to learn about he mysteries of the universe. When I think of God I think of a being that carefully considered all possibilities and purposefully created systems in place so that it’s creations could share and experience the beauty and horrors of existence
Good teaching Frank...
Frank knows what his unknowable god
would and wouldn't do.
How does Frank know what I don't know?
@@JamesRichardWiley 1st how u know that He's unknowable????
@@JamesRichardWiley it's barely out of your own decision and lifestyle you chose not to accept God.
Tbh there's a few fallacies going on as well as emotional opinion.
The father is the only one who is GOOD and not the son and not the holy spirit, according to Jesus.
John 10:29 My Father (…) is greater than all "
And he added; Why are you wondering what is good? No one is good except God alone. That if you want to come into life, keep the commandments. ”
Mark 13:32 "As for the day and the hour, no one knows them, not even the angels in heaven; nor the Son: the Father alone knows them."
The father is the only one who knows the moment of the hour and not the son and not the holy spirit, according to Jesus.
The father is the only one that everyone will be subject to himself Jesus and even the holy spirit will be subject to him on the day of judgment (Paul said, "And when all things have been submitted to him, then the Son himself will be subject to him who submitted all things to him, that God may be all in all. ”(1 Corinthians 15:28).)
The father of Jesus is a mass murderer of innocent unborn babies. He said so himself.
Bruh ,no.
@@JamesRichardWiley Jesus introduced His true Father, which was not the god of the old testament. He never called Him anything but Abba and Father, and said to call no one else Father.
God is necessary
No god is necessary, not one.
@@dannyc9903 science shows God is necessary. Due to the fact that the universe is expanding we know it had a beginning. No scientist has ever observed a universe that spontaneously created itself. We never see order from disorder; we never see intelligence arising from nothing. An intelligent designer is required. God is necessary.
Don’t be a science denier; accept Christ.
@@poliincredible770 But your god had np beginning, he just always was! What a load of s@@t
An intelligent designer?! Well he's messed up with cancer, priests that rape children, covid, the black death......I'm bored now and i haven't got a thousand years to give you everything he's screwed us with.
@@poliincredible770 An expanding universe doesn't imply it had a beginning, only that it was smaller.
There is only one observable universe. No scientist has ever observed a universe that definitely spontaneously created itself. And no scientist has ever observed a universe that was definitely created. We don't know what the difference would be.
We can see order arise in nature without any intelligence seemingly required. Crystals and snowflakes are examples of that. And it may be argued that biological life is an example of order and intelligence arising from natural processes too.
If you believe that intelligence cannot arise from just natural processes, aren't you committing a special pleading fallacy if you argue that your God doesn't need a designer?
@@itsJPhere, The expanding universe does prove a beginning. If the universe is growing larger now, that means it had to be smaller in the past. If this is traced back far enough, then we can reach a beginning since something cannot go on shrinking for ever.
*If a God exists it would not just leave us alone but would rescue us which is what Jesus did*
Why? why are you forcing your desires and wants on God? if a Deistic God exists it made it's choice to create us and then leave us to be to which it is in it's perfect right to do. Your argument is if God exists then it clearly would be personal and loving to us (which is not the case).
*First problem is God got involved with the creation of life*
This is a dodge and a weak one at that. Deism permits God to set the universe and the natural processes up to where life ends up developing. Theism is not true because life exists a Deistic God would be perfectly capable of just making the universe and life and then leaving us be (while i don't believe in God it makes way more sense then a personal all loving God).
*God has written morality on our hearts*
Wrong again morality evolved with us as a social species pretty much to help us survive also the fact is our morality does contradict bible morality so either God did not impose his morality on us or God imposed a different one then his morality on us either way you don't win (our morality contradicts bible morality such as being opposed to sexism, slavery, anti gay stuff etc).
*The evidence is there for Jesus doing miracles and rising from the dead*
No and no this is just wrong. The only evidence we have for that is the gospels are biased Christian accounts written by Greeks decades after the event retelling oral stories that developed overtime. That level of evidence is not good simply for the fact that the only need needed to explain the rise of the Christian story is 1 to 2 people simply having a vision or lying about it and then that story eventually spreading and getting new details (which is exactly what we have evidence for happening as later gospels give Jesus a virgin birth and made him more a magic figure then the original one Mark).
*In the beginning the universe was created is the biggest miracle*
The real answer is we don't know the details of that however if a Deistic God exists or if any other non Yahweh God exists then Jesus did not rise from the dead so thereby the creation of the universe by whatever God that isn't Yahweh does not prove Jesus as rising from the dead but to be very specific it has to be the Christian interpretation of that God. If it is just the Jewish God but Christianity is a false religion that developed then technically Yahweh did create the world but Jesus did not rise from the dead.
So no even if somehow you could prove some God created the universe you need additional proof in order to prove Christianity is the true religion because if any other of the 3999 other religions are correct then Jesus also did not rise from the dead. Your argument is akin to saying that if the universe was created by some form of God (or God's) then that must prove that Muhammad was the final prophet of Allah who got the instructions from angel Garbrelie to create the true faith of Islam (these conclusions do not follow it is a non sequiter).
*If spacetime and matter had a beginning whatever created it must transcend it and not have a beginning*
This is more of God of the gaps, we don't know the process thereby we assume it is a God whom we give special properties to exclude you from needing to explain where God came from when why can't the universe have the same effect?
*Only a personal being could made a choice*
That does not mean that it is personal in the sense of wanting a relationship or instituting an order. A Desitic God could be just like the sims, it chooses to create us for whatever it feels like but it does not want to interact or be super personal with us this does not grant Theism.
*It has to be intelligent*
Yahweh does not fit that definition well thereby it can't be him. Why doesn't he? well the bible is clear God makes mistakes, he does errors, he regrets, he made mankind and then regretted he made mankind then decided to flood the world when he could simply have given heart attacks to the evil people and let the animals live (instead of a giant flood) also the whole Christian system of making a religion rely on animal sacrifice instead of choosing to forgive us without but then come up with the human sacrifice as being the only way to attone for the system he created (the most backwards approach). But even if we ignore these then our bodies are not designed in an intelligent way either, bad eyes, hips, knees, being able to choke to death because of a design flaw connecting our eating pipe with the breathing one, bad backs, bad teeth. Everything about us screams evolved animal not inteligently designed creation.
*We don't know it is the Christian God*
Then why spout off this nonsense which doesn't prove it is the Christian God then? if you could only get to Deism even granting your arguments then why use them? why not go specific and say this is evidence proving only Christianity is true thereby evading the possibility of arguing for the 3999 other religions that are not Christianity?
*The same being who created the universe is the same being who rose from the dead*
No he isn't not even according to the bible, Jesus is the son of God, he is not the same as God, he has powers but he did not create the universe at best he witnessed his father doing it but did not do it himself nor does he have all the knowledge that Yahweh has so Jesus by definition is not God even if your religion was true he would not be God (still the Messiah and the son of God but not God).
*For Atheism and Deism to be true every miracle has to be false*
I don't believe in miracles so that is pretty good for me, People are more likely to be delusional or have visions or have their brains conjure something or be cured at the rate of random chance or pretty much anything else then a miracle to be real and when it comes to the miracles i have seen claimed they are not very strong what you have Catholic Priests who's bodies don't rot, the miracle of the dancing sun in which people stared at the sun reported to have seen it start dancing, the trick of the fire in Palestine by the Orthodox. visions people have of Mary.
These do not clear the bar for acceptance that the magic intervened into the world. Also on a final note you still have 3999 other religions to fight through because any of their God's can do magic and miracles so even if we get a real miracle which we can't deny happening you still have 3999 religions with all sorts of various God's which could have caused it too
So God made a big bang & waited billions of years before modern humans appear through the means of evolution. This is a joke 😆
I got a better joke. Nothing plus nobody equals everything.
You have just destroyed theism with one comment. Well done.
We'll technically if god is outside of time there is no such thing as waiting
Matthew 25:52
There is no God in Deism, as in Theism. There is only the first cause. You need the person and brain in this material world. How does it apply to the cause? The answer is, it does not. Deism does not deny spirituality. It could be or could not be present. Spiritual desists as myself believe in spirituality.
Spiritual religions are usually the most peaceful.
@@logicalatheist1065 In Western history those are. Which religion are you talking about? Buddhism for example had Ashoka, one of the most brutal and worst kings in whole human history. In recent history, Buddhists have been very violent toward minorities, as well.
@@NavaidSyed Jains come to mind
@@NavaidSyed christianity - rest of the Abrahamic religions have been even more violent
@@NavaidSyed I don't have a religion...
Obviously by my name I don't believe in any gods.
Spiritual religions I don't mind but ya, violence is everywhere on that subject
1988 years ago? I'd like to know how you came to that figure please
It's mostly a guesstiment, we know that Jesus supposedly died sometime between the year 28 AD and 33 AD so with a rough estimate at his earliest death would be sometime around 1,988 years ago which would be 33 AD. It's commonly more accepted to believe that Jesus died around 32 or 33 AD but that is how he came to the conclusion of this figure.
@@LucidVision138 a lot of moderns think the creators of the gregorian calander got the year of Jesus birth wrong, because of when King Harod died. But this is only a variance of 3-5 years, and apparently thir lines up with a known ancient celestial conjunction like the one we had recently which may have been what the wise men were talking about when they visited Harod.
@@ravissary79 IIRC, Dionysius Exiguus in VI. c. was who introduced the numeric error in his calcuation of the year of nativity.
@@LucidVision138 such an alleged important figure and no one knows when he was born... Lolol... So obviously man made Abrahamic nonsense, but hey some people think star trek is real and it makes them very happy.
@@logicalatheist1065 Nobody believe Star Trek is real lmao but over 2 billion people believe in Jesus. That was just terrible logic.
i LIKE THE INDIAN ACCENT
That's a south indian accent to be specific.
Deism is believing in God based on reasoning not revelation. Its not about believing in God who leave after creation.
Atheist to Christian:
You created a "God of the Gaps" to explain what at first, we didn't understand. But now we know how things in the world work, so we don't need a God to explain them!
Christian to Atheist:
You're attempting to deny the "God who FILLED the Gaps." The Lord created all things, then gave people a mind and understanding so that we could learn and know how His creation works.
You see a car, and your mind informs you there's a car maker. You see a painting, and logic and reason inform you there must be a painter. And yes, you see a watch with it's precise mechanisms, and rational thinking dictates there IS a watch maker. But then you see all the vastly more complex functioning systems in the universe at both the Micro AND Macro level and claim there's no "Universe Maker."
Evidence is not the problem. Human WILL is!
The ONLY reason people cannot find God is because they're not looking for Him and they don't want to find Him!
Oh my god you lot are still pushing the whole 'see a painting there must be a painter' BS. Bloody hell if you ever needed your god to write the follow up to the bible its now, as your material desperately needs updating!
It’s a problem of ecology because this argument ignores the fact that all creation is not contingent on a mind behind it. Yes, art is created by an artist, but land is created by volcanoes without a mind behind it, no different than your cells functioning without a mind behind them. This cosmological argument is so fixated on artificial creation and ignores everything we understand about natural creation.
@@dannyc9903
So what are you saying Danny?
If there’s a car there’s NOT a car maker?
If there’s a painting there’s NOTa painter?
If there’s a watch there’s NOT a watch maker?
I’m not desperate Danny. I made a logical, rational observation.
You however have simply scoffed and said nothing of substance.
But now is your chance to elaborate and explain your reasoning.
@@Godlimate you have made an unfounded assertion.
Where did the volcanoes come from?
And how do you know a mind did not create the cells to do what they did?
Does a car motor function?
Yes, the same as a cell functions.
But again, while logic and reason dictate to YOUR mind that a mind created a functioning motor
You refuse to acknowledge that there must be a mind behind an even more complex “motor.”
And this makes sense how?
By the way did you know that a mind is metaphysical and cannot be observed empirically?
So do you believe you have a mind even though there’s no empirical evidence?
@@rolysantos Yeah all human!
2:06 the answer is obvious 👽
John 3:16. Jesus Christ is God's greatest intervention for us. God sending His Son to die on a cross for our sins and rise from the dead is a greater miracle than the creation of the universe itself. By Him we are saved or condemned. Repent and believe in Jesus Christ as your Savior to be saved today. Tomorrow is guaranteed to no one.
You keep coming up with this rubbish!
@@dannyc9903 You come up with rubbish every day, you accept new ideas and world-views and you have no solid basis. You have absolutely no solid view of reality that can be used as an alternative to the Christian worldview.
@@dannyc9903 And you keep coming back for more so it must be pretty good. 👍🏻
Jehovah sent Jesus John 3:16
@@orthodoxinquirer5693 I have no view of reality?!! That's so funny! You reality comes from 2000 years ago! Are you still banging nails in your head to get rid of headaches?!
the evidence strongly points to frank turek being an apologist to make $$.
Believe the Gospel! You are a sinner who has broken God’s law! His standard is perfection, and you don’t measure up. That’s why Jesus Christ the Son of God came down to earth. He died for your sins, he was buried, and rose again. Trust him alone to save you!
Seems like there would have been an easier way than getting crucified
@@velkyn1"For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it." James 2:10
@@velkyn1 The point is the whole law of God is broken by one sin and that's enough to condemn you to Hell. Rejection of Jesus Christ is the final unforgivable sin that seals your condemnation. Whether someone has committed one or many sins makes no difference. You'll be judged and given justice for your sins and rejection of Christ.
If his standard is perfection, then he is a million miles from any sort of perfection!
@@dannyc9903 By what standard of perfection do you judge God to be imperfect and not able to meet the standard of? Where does this position originate that tells you right versus wrong as well as the definition of "perfect"?
There is only one God any belief that says there is more then 1 God they know not the Son or The Father stop thinking like a man and be led of God
The Hindus disagree with your baseless statement
@@logicalatheist1065 and they will know outer darkness with the rest of them who deny the Only True God and His Son the Messiah Jesus. It doesn't please the Father to see any Perish but they who deny Him Jesus His Son will deny them before the Father there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth in those days and they come quickly.
2:40
The math checks out, Im gonna allow it.
The answer is Atheism, I mean you only gave theism and deism which are the same thing so I added and answer and used that one.
Neither. There is no evidence for deism nor theism.
Nonsense
As a deist i agree 😅
as an atheist i agree!
He literally talked in cicrles this entire video
Can someone explain me how the hell Jesus saved us from what?
God is a Mind Jack, Jesus did not exist, the greater mind generates thoughts, its smarter than us
His argument collapsed in on it's self. The God he believes in has to save his creation my God just had to start it and knew it was perfect as it was and didn't need they're intervention. As humans we think we are the apex of God's creation. We are just one beautiful part of they're creation. Jesus is still part of my life and I live by his teachings but Jesus never claimed to be God, but he did teach how to be closer to God. The Jesus' teach I'm saved.
Frank Turek is too smart. I want him to share some to me. haha
Frank Turek is a loud man child who deliberately spreads false information.
He makes a living off of willful ignorance of his followers.
@@2l84me8 okay mr genius.
@@wakuwaku3190 More genius than your false prophet, that’s for sure.
@@2l84me8 glad i do not care
@@wakuwaku3190 And yet you bothered to reply.
"If you have a faulty understanding of deism, it makes a lot less sense than christianity." Stop using an old book as "evidence" or starting from the conclusion you want to end up at and working backwards. Thats the opposite of science, logic, and even reason. If you wanna believe for any number of reasons, thats a-okay, but by doing those things, you are hurting your own cause of making disciples of all nations. Morality doesnt have to have been written on our hearts by an entity. Theres plenty of evidence showing that morality developed through natural selection during the evolution of our species and the species that came before us. Follow the evidence to come up with a conclusion, dont start with the conclusion and make up evidence to support it, thats absurd.
I was eager to know abt deism and theism. Thank u Frank. Prayers from India. Also have a doubt: is Hinduism a deistic religion? If someone reads this and knows the answer, please share ur knowledge with me, will ya.
I think it’s a polytheistic religion.
Poly as in many gods.
@@Columbo-r4z yes yes. But isn't the Hindu gods not intervening in anything now? Manu christian ppl including myself had experienced god and there are many claims for that. But its really low from Hinduism. Its in this case that i have the dbt that Hinduism is a deistic religion. And also what does Hinduism holds for the future. It only talks abt an endless cycle of reincarnation
@@thekrakozhian392
Frank asserts deists believe god doesn’t intervene in our lives.
I’ve never heard of this.
He’s setting out conditions that favour his favourite god.
@@Columbo-r4z there are many types of beliefs in god. There's theism, deism, monotheism, polytheism, atheism, etc. He just compared one of them with theism.
@@thekrakozhian392
No he compared atheism too.
Although he doesn’t understand what atheism is. He’s reshaping everything else to make his the most reasonable conclusion. As always.
yeah I see my deism... as being theist. I simply see christianity, as being flawed, because humans wrote the book. rather than relying on others for all my guidance, I looks within for some of the knowledge too. I see science as the how, theism/christianity as the why - 2 sides of the same coin - which theists and agnostics can do too, I just kinda like staying in that mindset for everything else in life too. Like - I see Jesus as being real - the basis of the whole thing, the christianity being more correct than any other - but because god didnt make the manual himself, the bible can only ever be a general book of stories, of gods wrath, and morals standards that humans decided were good enough, covered enough. Kinda like the constitution - the creators are gone - some think they wanted to be strict, other say it should change with the times, and Im kinda right in the middle - it needs to change a bit, like for segerations and removing slavery, letting us gays be seen as just, here - and that kinda thing - but 'hate speech laws' for example - bad way - unconstitutional - as it blatantly goes against the purpose of the constitution. (protecting more rights - isnt the same as restricting set-in-stone rights)
I would like to offer a rebuff to the premise that life wasn’t already in the plan of God. It would be foolish to believe that an entity that transcends space and time could not have the forethought as to create the necessary conditions to life and intelligence. Also a point that is rarely mentioned is the idea that we don’t know the entire universe and all it’s mechanisms. There are very likely layers that the intelligence of god put in place that are inconceivable to man. To think that because we don’t know how it works must mean it’s a miracle is a falsity. The natural laws God created are more complex than we could understand within our many generations of thinking on these questions. Using the Bible as a piece of evidence isn’t more valid than deism because it relies on theism being true. It is equally likely there are people born with an innate sense of these hidden layers and general purpose that choose to use their lives to guide the rest of humanity towards striving to better know God through his creation.
"Well if this being is a loving being..."
Ummm, that's not an assumption that Deists make, so, maybe cope harder???
I believe in God without religion. religious experience is actually ufo encounters.
I am UNITARIAN THEIST---- am I DEIST or not??
Theism says one can enjoy the pleasures of sin and be forgiven by All these religion commanders
Be 😊
GOD knows everything correct? Why create us with freedom of choice knowing many would be confused and not choose a life of faith.. because it IS confusing.. and yet he was ok with many not choosing. We don't have a choice many choose God out of fear. He knows how it will end so why create it all?? Just leave us with him and not separate us at all.. why out mankind thru all this.. just asking
Great work Dr.Turek from an Orthodox Christian
To take Dr. Turek's points one by one;
1. The deity that created the universe does not need to be the same one as the one that created life.
2a. Same for the morality we seem endowed with. There is no reason to assume that morality was created, or that it was created by the same deity that created the universe, or by the same deity that created life.
2b. If the creator deity were a loving deity, it would not have created suffering.
3. There is no logical connection between a possible creator deity and any assumed or believed miracle worker on earth, and we can think of a myriad different "spaceless, timeless, immaterial, powerful, personal, intelligent" causes in addition to Dr. Turek's favorite deity. Those ideas can only be linked by a leap of faith, or as it is better known; wishful thinking.
4. As of this writing, not a single "spiritual experience, and miracle claim in the history of the world" has been proven to be true. As it is he who claims who must prove, not the other way around, this means there is no reason for anyone to be rationally convinced by any of these theistic claims.