Im with you, I much prefer this style of list building. I understand the hate for it, but love this version. We still have yet to see the 3rd Armies book, and the Matched Play guide, so somethings are bound to change
You have an army list that can't take a banner, and half of the matched play gives points for having a banner. Why do they not give the option for banners in each basic unit in the army list? Alternatively, they shouldn't make scenarios that score for banners.
@Aftar2 GW has said they're coming out with a Matched Play guide in a couple months. I'm refraining from judging scenarios and similar things until that comes out. If certain issues like you mentioned aren't resolved in either of the upcoming books, then I'll be concerned. However I have faith in the Middle Earth team at GW. Yes GW has a history of duping it's consumer base, but the Middle Earth team is the exception to that. Certain things can't be helped, but I genuinely believe they have the best interest for the game, and less so the company
Third comment; I'm commenting as I watch lol. One profile you skipped that really got screwed is Gothmog. He lost an attack, and has a worse Master of Battle, lost Heroic Strike, and stayed the same Fight in a world where F5 is quite weak. So you're paying 120 for evil Theoden basically, 45 more than the Good one. His Morannons also got nerfed, which was what made his legion somewhat playable. You guys also skipped Minas Morgul, which I think looks promising for Evil. Also gotta put this here because we all love Gandalf the White and you didn't mention it: if you take him on Shadowfax with Pippin he gets 6 RE-ROLLABLE FATE. LETS GO GANDALF!! Anyway, keep up the good work guys, loving your vids. Always nice to hear your thoughts, and as always, thanks to the Admiral from the entire community!
Thanks! Yeah, couldn't cover it all and we're still digesting, but you're right about Gothmog, I noticed that the other day and was trying to figure out why they did him like that. Minas Morgul does look good, and I think Cirith Ungol does too. And yeah, Pippin is a good shout for Gandalf. He gets SO expensive after Shadowfax and Pippin, so still not sold on him being worth the price, but interesting either way. Glad you like the vids, thanks for watching!
We do! Andrew and I have been gaming together for a very long time and just decided to split the costs. Andrew doesn't paint... so he edits our videos!
@@NowForWrathGaming That's awesome! Good combo to have. For me I love painting more than playing but he must really enjoy playing to let you paint everything.
@@MajorFletch haha I enjoy the painting... Andrew not so much. BUT he's been working on custom boards! In fairness, he probably would love and be good at painting, but it's a whole big ol' commitment.
Regarding Hunter Orcs, while they were nerfed on foot, their mounted versions got better, since they also get the additional attack from charging (so they have three attacks when charging infantry), and they got a point cheaper. Maybe Azog's Hunters will become more of a cavalry army, which would be fitting considering their portrayal in the movies. While Gandalf gaining re-rolls to casting in Men of the West is nice, it does not make up for him losing his Staff of Power. I don't particularly dislike the removal of allies in theory, but I do think it in practice will result in several profiles being completely ignored because their lists are too restrictive. Also it's weird you can't use Saruman and Lurtz in the same list. On a positive note, I do like the changes they made to some of the previously lackluster legendary legions like Men of the West and The Black Gate Opens, as well as the buffs to Thorin's Company.
I think minas morgul si the go to for evil lists now. A front line of morranons backed up by regular orcs with spears gives you a d6 front, with ST4,and all your support attacks have blades of the dead. It's a very killy line that's tough to crack and sometimes randomly fight 4. Its also cheap enough you can afford to slot in a monster like a fell beast or a troll and add two or so spectres to make the entire line immune to terror. It's probably the most lethal evil list out there.
Im easy either way. Never understood why fighting with allys gave you a bonus. A Numenorian fighting with an elf would be a negative as they fight in completly different ways. Also awsome getting admiral updated so fast thats nuts
I hope the next mystery book has some more options, I don't really care about allys but I do want to know what I'm meant to do with my morgul knights who used to be happily playing with my mordor army.
the loss of options & creativity in list building really hurts if you're interested in a part of the lore that hasn't been covered by film adaptations or if your reading of the books doesn't fit with the versions films have given us. For instance gothmog in the books is only named, never described. I always interpereted him as a black numenorian, like the mouth of sauron. a more flexible ruleset would let me run black numenorians, orcs, ringwraiths, specters, and the mouth of sauron, call the mouth 'gothmog', and thus field the army of minas morgul as I envisioned it myself, instead of benfing that interpretation to conform with a movie.
Hey guys - really appreciate the video. Liked and subbed. I'm just getting into MESBG after not doing tabletop for a good while - this time, I'll be bringing the wife and kids along for the fun. They're excited, lovin it. We're lookin to do things on a budget, so we tracked down lotrbay as a source for cheaper models - they seem legit from reviews on reddit, but feedback appreciated with a thumbs up or down on ordering through them. We're looking to create 4 armies, 2 good and 2 evil. Wife is liking Mirkwood, daughter and her BF with Rivendell, Son really wants the Witch King and Mordor - and me, I'm a bit undecided, but originally was thinkin Isengard. Each army we're lookin at 750 points. Should I go for Army of the White Hand that you guys mentioned? A rough recommended composition would be super appreciated. Thanks both of you, have a good one!
HAve never ordered from them so don't know! Will let others weigh in on that. That's so awesome! Sounds like a really fun hobby to share as a fam! I'd say Army of the White Hand will be a great starting place- invest in orcs and you'll never regret it. Uruk scouts are also pretty flexible in lots of other lists.
I've always hated the completely nonsense lists that could be made with the alliances but I really miss getting to play what-if scenarios or getting to pick your favorite models from the same army (my Saruman and Lurtz really miss each other). Hopefully the third book will open up at least a few more options.
You have an army list that can't take a banner, and half of the matched play gives points for having a banner. Why do they not give the option for banners in each basic unit in the army list? Alternatively, they shouldn't make scenarios that score for banners.
Oh- sorry! You meant approach to army building as in- this edition or last? Great question! This one is more atomic(?) and being based on themes is easier to build the thing you like on the screen... Does that make it better? Not sure- it's maybe easier to get going but harder to make a random collection work?
Thank you! For fountain guards - Which heroes? Is it only Denethor? 😢 Does the Irolas +1 strike rule for citadel guards apply also with bows when shooting ? 😃
@@matteomannocci Some other heroes get them in other lists... Kings of men in the Realms of men army. Maybe a few others. No, bow wounds are not strikes :)
I'm surprised that you think you need more Warriors of Minas Tirith! I think Citadel Guards will be the new meta for Minas Tirith, and even some for Atop the Wall. Better bows for cheaper, and cheapest spears. I can even see an argument for Osgiliath Vets in Reclamation. I think we'll see more troop variety in the Minas Tirith front rather than less. For Men of the West you just need a ton of WoMT and Warriors of Rohan, there we agree.
Yeah that's fair. I think we'll at least get a clump of Citadel Guard to run with Irolas. +1 to wound on a MT warrior is pretty nice for a faction whose warriors otherwise just do not hit hard.
I don't mind the new list to some extent and I agree that some soup list got annoying. But I feel it went too far on the other side. Is it too much to ask to be able to have a list with Saruman, Ugluk and Sharku together? Or Glorfindel with the Fellowship? I'm waiting for the Armies of Middle-Earth book before passing final judgement.
@NowForWrathGaming He will be an option somewhere. He is currently in no option, IIRC. I'm intrigued to see how they will integrate the next book and the first companion book. Will they expand the current list? Will they create new ones?
They answered someone on social media that it will be a combination of both. Some some models will make it into these existing LL's and some will be part of new ones.
@@AlexanderGiraldez they're strong. But if we go by tournament results, saying that those lists are all that you see, or even that wins, would be a mistake. If you want to make an accurate description of the meta of the current edition you have to mention about 10 lists.
@ I agree but I believe that was due to the flexibility in list building in the last edition. With the game shifting to the LL model I think you will have some very dominant list builds. But we will see. I’m excited for the profile changes and trying the new edition even with some reservations in list building
My group has been.playing this game since the start. No one has ever bothered to glue bits of wire to models. A bowman is a bowman. Reinforces for me that competition gaming is just weird.
So when are we changing the profile picture of the channel from Sauron to Saruman? 🙃 Barad-dur catching more nerfs than buffs going into the new edition is so sad. Sauron already considered C tier and getting his Fell Beasts, Bows, Magic/Might in his list restricted, Hurl Heroic Combat down the battleline or to set up a trapped 8xS8 strike turn nerfed (hopefully the new precision Hurl pays off otherwise but oof), Flames of Evil and spell casting nerfed, spell effects nerfed... His Unstoppable was even reworded so it doesnt include 3rd row Pike Supports any more, unless this is an error an Errata will fix. So they have even more forbade Sauron from affecting more than the two models a turn he currently can without your opponent playing into you intentionally. Meanwhile Legolas is allowed to melee while he shoots. Shelob got some subtle buffs. Caught in a Web no longer requires you to wound the victim, so even if they spend a Fate point, they are Paralyzed - That is a Brutal power attack with a capital B. Venom special rule now gives you a chance to deal a free bonus wound on anyone your strikes have wounded in the fight phase. So she could hypothetically: monstrous charge 2 heroes, be charged by a 3rd, win and knock prone, split attacks one each and strike each of them successfully with both hits, then get a trio of 6s on the venom during the end phase and deal 3 wounds to each of them totalling 9. That with Dominant, Barge being minimum 4" and her ignoring terrain, having good Intelligence to avoid falling prey to enemy special rules (lore win for the ancient eldritch demon scion!), and the bonus strikes against spear supporters, people will be more hesitant to risk models investing into Shelob's combat so she will actually win more. Shame she cant be put in Barad-dur's list any more, the Spider Sauron tech was fun just not good with no model count.
Yeah, I mean Dominant (10) REALLY helps Sauron in objective scenarios. A borderline-unkillable model that counts as 10 models, especially on a scenario where the center objective is worth more, is really nice. Unfortunately it does nothing for him in non-objective scenarios, so I think he still suffers. Shelob does sound pretty good!
@@NowForWrathGamingLosing offensive potential in an offence-starved list is horrific. The Dominant Sauron gained isnt even particularly good compared to other models. Of the following, where are you seeing the best bang for your buck on objective control? 400 point borderline unkillable model worth 10 models that can only kill 2 enemies at a time. 350-400 point Mumak worth 10 models that can also flatten 10 models if it gets a move action. 60 point cost regular guy who guards Theoden's porch that makes himself and all models with active Bodyguard (probably all models) within 6" of him have Dominant 2.
The age of the berserker has come
Im with you, I much prefer this style of list building. I understand the hate for it, but love this version. We still have yet to see the 3rd Armies book, and the Matched Play guide, so somethings are bound to change
@@KnudAutlermann yep agreed! Can’t wait! Exciting times for mesbg
I agree with you. I understand the apprehension, but I do LIKE this new version a lot.
You have an army list that can't take a banner, and half of the matched play gives points for having a banner. Why do they not give the option for banners in each basic unit in the army list? Alternatively, they shouldn't make scenarios that score for banners.
@Aftar2 GW has said they're coming out with a Matched Play guide in a couple months. I'm refraining from judging scenarios and similar things until that comes out. If certain issues like you mentioned aren't resolved in either of the upcoming books, then I'll be concerned. However I have faith in the Middle Earth team at GW. Yes GW has a history of duping it's consumer base, but the Middle Earth team is the exception to that. Certain things can't be helped, but I genuinely believe they have the best interest for the game, and less so the company
Third comment; I'm commenting as I watch lol.
One profile you skipped that really got screwed is Gothmog. He lost an attack, and has a worse Master of Battle, lost Heroic Strike, and stayed the same Fight in a world where F5 is quite weak. So you're paying 120 for evil Theoden basically, 45 more than the Good one. His Morannons also got nerfed, which was what made his legion somewhat playable.
You guys also skipped Minas Morgul, which I think looks promising for Evil.
Also gotta put this here because we all love Gandalf the White and you didn't mention it: if you take him on Shadowfax with Pippin he gets 6 RE-ROLLABLE FATE. LETS GO GANDALF!!
Anyway, keep up the good work guys, loving your vids. Always nice to hear your thoughts, and as always, thanks to the Admiral from the entire community!
Thanks! Yeah, couldn't cover it all and we're still digesting, but you're right about Gothmog, I noticed that the other day and was trying to figure out why they did him like that.
Minas Morgul does look good, and I think Cirith Ungol does too.
And yeah, Pippin is a good shout for Gandalf. He gets SO expensive after Shadowfax and Pippin, so still not sold on him being worth the price, but interesting either way.
Glad you like the vids, thanks for watching!
The lists are coming, the lists are coming! Really appreciate the review and your guys' thoughts!
Do you guys share a collection? Love your content ❤
We do! Andrew and I have been gaming together for a very long time and just decided to split the costs. Andrew doesn't paint... so he edits our videos!
@@NowForWrathGaming That's awesome! Good combo to have. For me I love painting more than playing but he must really enjoy playing to let you paint everything.
@@MajorFletch haha I enjoy the painting... Andrew not so much. BUT he's been working on custom boards! In fairness, he probably would love and be good at painting, but it's a whole big ol' commitment.
Regarding Hunter Orcs, while they were nerfed on foot, their mounted versions got better, since they also get the additional attack from charging (so they have three attacks when charging infantry), and they got a point cheaper. Maybe Azog's Hunters will become more of a cavalry army, which would be fitting considering their portrayal in the movies.
While Gandalf gaining re-rolls to casting in Men of the West is nice, it does not make up for him losing his Staff of Power.
I don't particularly dislike the removal of allies in theory, but I do think it in practice will result in several profiles being completely ignored because their lists are too restrictive. Also it's weird you can't use Saruman and Lurtz in the same list.
On a positive note, I do like the changes they made to some of the previously lackluster legendary legions like Men of the West and The Black Gate Opens, as well as the buffs to Thorin's Company.
I think minas morgul si the go to for evil lists now. A front line of morranons backed up by regular orcs with spears gives you a d6 front, with ST4,and all your support attacks have blades of the dead. It's a very killy line that's tough to crack and sometimes randomly fight 4. Its also cheap enough you can afford to slot in a monster like a fell beast or a troll and add two or so spectres to make the entire line immune to terror. It's probably the most lethal evil list out there.
Agreed. Looking forward to that one!
I think I’m going to run the Embracers of Change LL. Seems like the best way to go with the new edition!
@@Competentetyler the world has changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth.
Im easy either way. Never understood why fighting with allys gave you a bonus. A Numenorian fighting with an elf would be a negative as they fight in completly different ways.
Also awsome getting admiral updated so fast thats nuts
My boy has been working tirelessly to get it going!
Yeah, but what if the real fight bonus was the friends they made along the way?
Yeah good is so much better then evil also kinda scared that these new good heroes are going to be so good that you won’t really need skill to win
I hope the next mystery book has some more options, I don't really care about allys but I do want to know what I'm meant to do with my morgul knights who used to be happily playing with my mordor army.
@@ajtame not a mystery! Next book is “armies of middle earth” which are things that weren’t in the films. Morgul knights confirmed to be in it :)
the loss of options & creativity in list building really hurts if you're interested in a part of the lore that hasn't been covered by film adaptations or if your reading of the books doesn't fit with the versions films have given us.
For instance gothmog in the books is only named, never described. I always interpereted him as a black numenorian, like the mouth of sauron. a more flexible ruleset would let me run black numenorians, orcs, ringwraiths, specters, and the mouth of sauron, call the mouth 'gothmog', and thus field the army of minas morgul as I envisioned it myself, instead of benfing that interpretation to conform with a movie.
Hey guys - really appreciate the video. Liked and subbed.
I'm just getting into MESBG after not doing tabletop for a good while - this time, I'll be bringing the wife and kids along for the fun. They're excited, lovin it.
We're lookin to do things on a budget, so we tracked down lotrbay as a source for cheaper models - they seem legit from reviews on reddit, but feedback appreciated with a thumbs up or down on ordering through them.
We're looking to create 4 armies, 2 good and 2 evil. Wife is liking Mirkwood, daughter and her BF with Rivendell, Son really wants the Witch King and Mordor - and me, I'm a bit undecided, but originally was thinkin Isengard. Each army we're lookin at 750 points. Should I go for Army of the White Hand that you guys mentioned? A rough recommended composition would be super appreciated.
Thanks both of you, have a good one!
HAve never ordered from them so don't know! Will let others weigh in on that.
That's so awesome! Sounds like a really fun hobby to share as a fam!
I'd say Army of the White Hand will be a great starting place- invest in orcs and you'll never regret it. Uruk scouts are also pretty flexible in lots of other lists.
@NowForWrathGaming Awesome, appreciate the reply, brother - looks like Isengard is the start.
Have a good one, thanks again
Hello, first of all, thanks for creating the data files for tabletop admiral. I have found an issue, how can I contact you about this. Thanks
Very excited for the mumak now. Can’t be stopped by random 1 warrior, can’t be stopped by magic. It’s time for mass trample 🐘🐘🐘
@@justinfanter3620 ugh I need to paint one don’t I?
@ it’s time 🐘🐍
I've always hated the completely nonsense lists that could be made with the alliances but I really miss getting to play what-if scenarios or getting to pick your favorite models from the same army (my Saruman and Lurtz really miss each other).
Hopefully the third book will open up at least a few more options.
Agreed- double edged sword for sure!
You have an army list that can't take a banner, and half of the matched play gives points for having a banner. Why do they not give the option for banners in each basic unit in the army list? Alternatively, they shouldn't make scenarios that score for banners.
Ah, yeah, I agree. That's a bit of a miss. Hopefully the matched play guide has fewer banner points scenarios.
Perhaps tournament packs will allow for some universal access to banners. Maybe tournament specific themed banners granting different bonuses?
We take what ever or in warbands ? How menny soldier one hero can take ?
I think your best bet is to grab the rulebook and give it a read! Game is great and the rulebook is very well laid out to get the hang of it :)
Question: which army building system was best for new players?
Definitely Tabletop Admiral- but I'm a little biased :)
modular.tabletopadmiral.com/?gameUrl=nowforwrath.github.io/data2024.json
Oh- sorry! You meant approach to army building as in- this edition or last?
Great question! This one is more atomic(?) and being based on themes is easier to build the thing you like on the screen... Does that make it better? Not sure- it's maybe easier to get going but harder to make a random collection work?
Do citadel guard keep the bow ? I don’t understand
Also I don’t see fountain guards!
@@matteomannocci Citadel guard are either spear or longbow. Fountain court can only be taken by a few heroes.
Thank you!
For fountain guards - Which heroes? Is it only Denethor? 😢
Does the Irolas +1 strike rule for citadel guards apply also with bows when shooting ? 😃
@@matteomannocci Some other heroes get them in other lists... Kings of men in the Realms of men army. Maybe a few others.
No, bow wounds are not strikes :)
@ thank you so much!
I'm surprised that you think you need more Warriors of Minas Tirith! I think Citadel Guards will be the new meta for Minas Tirith, and even some for Atop the Wall. Better bows for cheaper, and cheapest spears. I can even see an argument for Osgiliath Vets in Reclamation. I think we'll see more troop variety in the Minas Tirith front rather than less. For Men of the West you just need a ton of WoMT and Warriors of Rohan, there we agree.
Yeah that's fair. I think we'll at least get a clump of Citadel Guard to run with Irolas. +1 to wound on a MT warrior is pretty nice for a faction whose warriors otherwise just do not hit hard.
Much prefer direction of new lists especially wargear.
@@mysticmouse7983 big same.
I'm gonna be honest, I miss the signature mustache
@@Rathamak much like frosty, it’ll be back again some day.
When is the snow troll getting released
@@Brendan-d1j not sure anyone knows the date!
I don't mind the new list to some extent and I agree that some soup list got annoying. But I feel it went too far on the other side. Is it too much to ask to be able to have a list with Saruman, Ugluk and Sharku together? Or Glorfindel with the Fellowship? I'm waiting for the Armies of Middle-Earth book before passing final judgement.
@@sebastiencarrieres8825 glorfindel may be a fellowship option in the next book! I’d hope so- one of my favorite parts of the books!
@NowForWrathGaming He will be an option somewhere. He is currently in no option, IIRC.
I'm intrigued to see how they will integrate the next book and the first companion book. Will they expand the current list? Will they create new ones?
They answered someone on social media that it will be a combination of both. Some some models will make it into these existing LL's and some will be part of new ones.
What is going to happen is that two or three armies will become the meta and they will be all you see in tournament play.
There's no reason that would happen any more than it did in last edition. And it didn't happen in last edition so...
@@BrickWanndragon emperor and assault on loth would like a word.
@@AlexanderGiraldez they're strong. But if we go by tournament results, saying that those lists are all that you see, or even that wins, would be a mistake. If you want to make an accurate description of the meta of the current edition you have to mention about 10 lists.
@ I agree but I believe that was due to the flexibility in list building in the last edition. With the game shifting to the LL model I think you will have some very dominant list builds. But we will see. I’m excited for the profile changes and trying the new edition even with some reservations in list building
My group has been.playing this game since the start. No one has ever bothered to glue bits of wire to models. A bowman is a bowman. Reinforces for me that competition gaming is just weird.
I don't think you're in the minority in liking the list building changes. I feel it's more of a loud minority that makes us think that.
I hope that's true! I guess people who are happy with it don't really need to make facebook/reddit/etc posts about it.
So when are we changing the profile picture of the channel from Sauron to Saruman? 🙃
Barad-dur catching more nerfs than buffs going into the new edition is so sad. Sauron already considered C tier and getting his Fell Beasts, Bows, Magic/Might in his list restricted, Hurl Heroic Combat down the battleline or to set up a trapped 8xS8 strike turn nerfed (hopefully the new precision Hurl pays off otherwise but oof), Flames of Evil and spell casting nerfed, spell effects nerfed... His Unstoppable was even reworded so it doesnt include 3rd row Pike Supports any more, unless this is an error an Errata will fix.
So they have even more forbade Sauron from affecting more than the two models a turn he currently can without your opponent playing into you intentionally. Meanwhile Legolas is allowed to melee while he shoots.
Shelob got some subtle buffs. Caught in a Web no longer requires you to wound the victim, so even if they spend a Fate point, they are Paralyzed - That is a Brutal power attack with a capital B. Venom special rule now gives you a chance to deal a free bonus wound on anyone your strikes have wounded in the fight phase. So she could hypothetically: monstrous charge 2 heroes, be charged by a 3rd, win and knock prone, split attacks one each and strike each of them successfully with both hits, then get a trio of 6s on the venom during the end phase and deal 3 wounds to each of them totalling 9. That with Dominant, Barge being minimum 4" and her ignoring terrain, having good Intelligence to avoid falling prey to enemy special rules (lore win for the ancient eldritch demon scion!), and the bonus strikes against spear supporters, people will be more hesitant to risk models investing into Shelob's combat so she will actually win more. Shame she cant be put in Barad-dur's list any more, the Spider Sauron tech was fun just not good with no model count.
Yeah, I mean Dominant (10) REALLY helps Sauron in objective scenarios. A borderline-unkillable model that counts as 10 models, especially on a scenario where the center objective is worth more, is really nice.
Unfortunately it does nothing for him in non-objective scenarios, so I think he still suffers.
Shelob does sound pretty good!
@@NowForWrathGamingLosing offensive potential in an offence-starved list is horrific. The Dominant Sauron gained isnt even particularly good compared to other models.
Of the following, where are you seeing the best bang for your buck on objective control?
400 point borderline unkillable model worth 10 models that can only kill 2 enemies at a time.
350-400 point Mumak worth 10 models that can also flatten 10 models if it gets a move action.
60 point cost regular guy who guards Theoden's porch that makes himself and all models with active Bodyguard (probably all models) within 6" of him have Dominant 2.
Haha, well I can't say I disagree with your point.