If the characters of the golden plates were written in reformed egyptian, how it is supposed that Charles Anthon could ever say that they were correctly translated if only Moroni knew this language and Joseph Smith needed the stone/stones to translate the plates?. Anthon never could know reformed egyptian as any other man. Indeed, normal Egytian were not already been fully interpreted by that time by anyone, until many years later. Besides, there are not any evidencies in ancient america of any language written or spoken that is even close similar to egyptian. So, I don't think that they were taken from any golden plates. It was simply an invention.
+Dan Vogel I'm intrigued my joseph Smith and his claims. I just found you channel on the man . Thanks for uploading you work . I think you do a great service to anyone looking for concrete answers to such a tricky subject as Mormonism .
I get the feeling Emma probably did look at the plates when no one was around. However, she denied ever seeing them as this prevented her from having to lie, because we all know they were made of tin most likely and a stage prop.
Whether or not there even were any gold plates, and whether or not the language they supposedly were written in was "reformed Egyptian" or pig Latin, is a moot point, since the Mormon church has now admitted that the gold plates weren't even used in dictating the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith put a rock into his hat and stuck his face into the hat and dictated to his scribes. The complete Book of Mormon that is published today was done with the rock-in-the-hat method.
Gamers; No, he wasn't a fraud. Those plates were handled and shown to first three, who witnessed those plates and gave their names to the world, and then a short time later eight others felt and viewed those gold plates and gave their witness to the world, and none have ever denied those testimonies. ( Online Book of Mormon .. and read the title pages: sacred-texts.com/mor/bom.htm ) SciPro
Sci Pro I take it from you're text that you are LDS . I have become recently intrigue by Joseph Smith and started to learn about the Mormon faith. To be honest the more I learned about the Prophet's teaching the more I realised he was spitting out hersey. Is there any wonder mainline Christian thinkers are some what repulsed by this faith. I'm not speaking about the believers , I have met many a fine individual from this faith. The Prophets claims well that's another story. And yes the Gold Plates are a intriguing but somewhat bogus in the light of the real world .
Gamers; Quote: To be honest the more I learned about the Prophet's teaching the more I realised he was spitting out hersey. Is there any wonder mainline Christian thinkers are some what repulsed by this faith. Unquote Well, I take it, that you can 'prove' Joseph was spitting out heresy? No, ... he was NOT spitting out heresy, he was revealing new things as prophets do. Amos 3:7 That's their calling, to speak forth words of God, has he commands them to do. And in the case of Joseph Smith, he had the unenviable task, or restoring the Church of Jesus Christ in all it's glory once again upon the earth. And to bring forth history and God's dealings with other peoples, other than the Jews. Thus the Book of Mormon. He also recorded many of God's answers and instructions given in our day, to Joseph and that is contained in Doctrine and Covenants. He also translated Abraham's record found in the Catacombs of Egypt written on papyrus, which papyrus was purchased by the Church. ( Book of Mormon, online = sacred-texts.com/mor/bom.htm ) ( Doctrine & Covenants online = sacred-texts.com/mor/dc/index.htm ) ( Pearl of Great Price online = Abraham www.sacred-texts.com/mor/pgp/index.htm ) Any, or all of these books have a standing invitation, to pray about them, and get a confirmation from our Father in heaven as to their veracity. The Book of Mormon, especially so, as that Book is the Keystone of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and that church is the same as mentioned in Ephesians 2:19-20 and Ephesians 4:11-12. Those Gold plates that you are critiquing as containing scripture. Plates of brass and silver and stone, all of which offer a more solid form of records that would last, have been used by other cultures and peoples. So, it should come as no surprise, when important works such as scriptures are found upon them. Jesus Christ gave us a great example, of Peter's questioning in Matthew 16:13-20, where, a man can build upon that rock of revelation, by asking of the heavens concerning a question in search of a truth. And so, you can do the very same, about the Book of Mormon, it being the 'keystone' of that church, of Jesus Christ. SciPro
Sci Pro how can you possibly defend any of the Mormon Doctrine when it flys so blatantly in the face of Holy Scripture. I hate to break it to you but Christ and the devil are not brothers. God the Father does not have spirit wives to have eternal sex with to populate the known universe. The most that can be said for the devil is that he was the highest angel but because of his pride he fell. I'm sure all black people will sleep a little better knowing this. Mormon teaching is so strange how could it be anything but hersey from the mind of a money digger, and yes Joseph Smith was indeed into the ocult and magic. In fact his own father in law despised him for leading him on a wild goose chase looking for buried treasure. Think about it why would God Almighty let his son walk this earth and fail in his mission to redeem mankind, oh I see he was waiting 1800 years later for Joseph Smith to get it right, some how I don't think so .
I just watched your excellent video and a question keeps troubling me- what is the significance of having golden plates presented by angels, written in “reformed “ Egyptian? Why would any value be placed on plates that were written in a polytheistic language, completely different from our monotheistic faith in One God, the uncreated creator?
Why on earth did Smith consult with Anthon? And above all, why send Harris, the source of his funding? Surely there was a massive risk that Anthon would convince Harris that he had been scammed - and there would go the money. Is it possible that Harris convinced Smith to write down the Caractors, and then went to New York without telling Smith? Smith may have pretended to have sent Harris afterwards, to take advantage of Harris's ambiguous reaction to Anthon's response.
@@danvogel6802 Yeah, my point is that Smith could not have known that outcome. Odds were Anthon would have said "This is fake writing and you are being scammed", and that Harris would have believed Anthon. I don't see the benefit of sending Harris to New York like that.
@@saltech3444 Smith knew the learned could not translate the characters. I'm not sure what his motive was before hand, but he immediately connected it to Isaiah 29, which was fulfilled when the learned could not read the words of the book and he (the unlearned) could.
@@saltech3444 You know darn well what "The odds would be." If you deny that, you are refusing to see or hear. As Vogel states straight- forwardly, js's MIS-use of Isaiah 29 should be obvious up front as a set-up. (js's MISUSE of Isaiah's whole book repeatedly is monumentally insolent of js & should have elicited contempt amongst his "believers." But he knew they had already swallowed the twine & were hungry to be fed continually the whole great wad of it.
I think the first giveaway that it's fraudulent work is the fact that Joseph couldn't spell characters. I mean how much stock could you put in someone producing text in a different language when he calls them "caractors."
LOL! Apparently his conversations with god didn't include any counseling or insight that would improve his spelling ability! I must say though...I think I might have personally liked Joe Smith. Every good con deserves appreciation. He was committed to his score to the very end...
Smith winds up being quite a "caractor" himself !! Of course, he revealed he couldn't be a prophet, either, since almost every prophecy he ever spoke failed. Exactly HOW does one come to the conclusion that Joe Smith was anything but a religious huckster ?!?
Why would God feel that only Joseph Smith should see these plates? It makes no sense. The excuses and explanations make no sense. After all, the Dead Sea Scrolls can be seen by all.
The whole story of the translation is too convoluted to reveal any truth. Unknown script with unknown language? The best magic spectacles could do would be to change the writing from the "Caractors" to a known alphabet. Then there would be the language problem. The simple explanation within the religious context would be that JS was able to translate via holy inspiration. That might have held up to scrutiny since religion is a matter of faith. It sounds like JS drug out the story and tossed crumbs to his followers when they began to question. At best the "Caractors" are a mixture of letters and signs as explained over the three videos.
+Anna Morris - "JS was able to translate via holy inspiration" More like "the fraud JS was able to invent via family involvement" Lucy Mack was the Calvinist grandmother of the BoM.
Professor Anthon: "This language is just gibberish!" Martin Harris: "So, you agree that this is a language then, huh?" Professor Anthon: "Uh, it's impossible to translate gibberish." Martin Harris: "Well, this is because you don't have a pair of special divine spectacles!" Professor Anthon: *facepalm 😖
Hi Dan I look at the characters and it appears the look very similar to the characters of the language of angels presented by John Dee & Edward Kelley (1500's)
"Nephi's PREDICTION" NOT Isaiah's prophecy." A distinction worth at least $200 billion U.S.
5 років тому
To Dan:: maybe so, will be interesting to see what the Israel Antiquites experts say, and if the dating is correct, but I’m going to keep an open mind with a salt shaker near by.😎
No maybe about it. It's a hoax. The characters are taken from the Anthon transcript, which are fake. They don't appear to be engraved but stamped into the plate. The rings follow David Whitmer's description of being D-shaped, but they look modern in that they are perfectly formed from rods. Four inches were sealed.
Hahaha the Hebrew alphabet is "Reformed Egyptian". The characters Vogel uses were not written by Smith. Brass plates mentioned in the Book of Mormon which are scriptures were laughed at by guys like Vogel. Anti Mormons like Vogel claimed Jews never wrote on brass. But one of the Dead Sea Scrolls is written on brass. The Book of Mormon says the ancients used Metal swords, head plates, etc. Archeologists have found many examples of them., Dan needs to read more instead of making silly claims.
@@danvogel6802 really where is it written that brass plates had scriptures on it? Metallurgy was well know in North America where Joseph Smith said it was, when it was, and what type is was. Tell how did Joseph Smith know that metal head plates were used by Native Americans? No one in 1829 knew there was even head plates let alone metal ones. Humm
@@henochparks Trying to move the goal posts, hey? Well, you said writing on metal plates was unknown in JS's day. You have been misinformed about actual history of the North American Indian and metallurgy. However, JS and his contemporaries mistook metal object, included steel swords, found in the mounds and elsewhere as artifacts from ancient America, when actually they were European artifacts.
@@danvogel6802 We notice you don't cite your sources. Show us claims of brass plates with scriptures in 1829. I will show you Hebrew writing on precious metals and brass plates thousands of years ago unknown to Joseph Smith.
@@henochparks I told you it was in the Apocrypha. See 1 Mac. 8:22; 14:27. It doesn't say what language these records were written in, but it could have been Hebrew. The BofM brass plates, as you should know, were written in Egyptian. Do you have any examples of the five books of Moses written in Egyptian on brass plates?
The problem with your reply is that the "caractors" listed by Smith are fraudulent at best. Even if Smith copied the text from other writings, that doesn't mean that the message Smith meant to portray was original. Look at the texts found within the said BofM that were copied directly from the King James version of the Bible !! No credible scholar would back up such an obvious copycat. Borrowed terms and borrowed names, nothing more. These problems just scratch the surface concerning Smith and his lack of veracity....
+DJ7223 there is a computer program that takes words phrases and whole chapters under scrutiny when someone ran the book of mormon through it 7 different books were found hidden within its covers chapters from the old testament stories from a book named the first book of napoleon place names come from the book capitan kidd. the book is false plagiarized and so is the church
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Excellent video Dan. I look forward to the next two.
Love your videos. So informative and useful. Thank you for doing this research and work.
If the characters of the golden plates were written in reformed egyptian, how it is supposed that Charles Anthon could ever say that they were correctly translated if only Moroni knew this language and Joseph Smith needed the stone/stones to translate the plates?. Anthon never could know reformed egyptian as any other man. Indeed, normal Egytian were not already been fully interpreted by that time by anyone, until many years later. Besides, there are not any evidencies in ancient america of any language written or spoken that is even close similar to egyptian.
So, I don't think that they were taken from any golden plates. It was simply an invention.
Another great episode, Dan.
Thanks!
+Dan Vogel I'm intrigued my joseph Smith and his claims. I just found you channel on the man . Thanks for uploading you work . I think you do a great service to anyone looking for concrete answers to such a tricky subject as Mormonism .
I get the feeling Emma probably did look at the plates when no one was around. However, she denied ever seeing them as this prevented her from having to lie, because we all know they were made of tin most likely and a stage prop.
Dan, does this mean I won't be getting my own planet?
😂😂😂
‘Looks like Joseph was always juggling to stay one step ahead of the folks who were skeptical.
Whether or not there even were any gold plates, and whether or not the language they supposedly were written in was "reformed Egyptian" or pig Latin, is a moot point, since the Mormon church has now admitted that the gold plates weren't even used in dictating the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith put a rock into his hat and stuck his face into the hat and dictated to his scribes. The complete Book of Mormon that is published today was done with the rock-in-the-hat method.
Hahaha yea sure pal. We notice you are not quoting your sources.
Fascinating scholarship.
Does anyone have any guesses or opinions as to why Josephsmyth couldn't show the plates? If so I would like to hear a few or a lot.
because he was a fraud !
Gamers; No, he wasn't a fraud. Those plates were handled and shown to first three, who witnessed those plates and gave their names to the world, and then a short time later eight others felt and viewed those gold plates and gave their witness to the world, and none have ever denied those testimonies.
( Online Book of Mormon .. and read the title pages: sacred-texts.com/mor/bom.htm )
SciPro
Sci Pro I take it from you're text that you are LDS . I have become recently intrigue by Joseph Smith and started to learn about the Mormon faith. To be honest the more I learned about the Prophet's teaching the more I realised he was spitting out hersey. Is there any wonder mainline Christian thinkers are some what repulsed by this faith. I'm not speaking about the believers , I have met many a fine individual from this faith. The Prophets claims well that's another story. And yes the Gold Plates are a intriguing but somewhat bogus in the light of the real world .
Gamers; Quote: To be honest the more I learned about the Prophet's teaching the more I
realised he was spitting out hersey. Is there any wonder mainline
Christian thinkers are some what repulsed by this faith. Unquote
Well, I take it, that you can 'prove' Joseph was spitting out heresy?
No, ... he was NOT spitting out heresy, he was revealing new things as prophets do. Amos 3:7
That's their calling, to speak forth words of God, has he commands them to do. And in the case of Joseph Smith, he had the unenviable task, or restoring the Church of Jesus Christ in all it's glory once again upon the earth.
And to bring forth history and God's dealings with other peoples, other than the Jews. Thus the Book of Mormon. He also recorded many of God's answers and instructions given in our day, to Joseph and that is contained in Doctrine and Covenants.
He also translated Abraham's record found in the Catacombs of Egypt written on papyrus, which papyrus was purchased by the Church.
( Book of Mormon, online = sacred-texts.com/mor/bom.htm )
( Doctrine & Covenants online = sacred-texts.com/mor/dc/index.htm )
( Pearl of Great Price online = Abraham www.sacred-texts.com/mor/pgp/index.htm )
Any, or all of these books have a standing invitation, to pray about them, and get a confirmation from our Father in heaven as to their veracity. The Book of Mormon, especially so, as that Book is the Keystone of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and that church is the same as mentioned in Ephesians 2:19-20 and Ephesians 4:11-12.
Those Gold plates that you are critiquing as containing scripture. Plates of brass and silver and stone, all of which offer a more solid form of records that would last, have been used by other cultures and peoples.
So, it should come as no surprise, when important works such as scriptures are found upon them.
Jesus Christ gave us a great example, of Peter's questioning in Matthew 16:13-20, where, a man can build upon that rock of revelation, by asking of the heavens concerning a question in search of a truth.
And so, you can do the very same, about the Book of Mormon, it being the 'keystone' of that church, of Jesus Christ.
SciPro
Sci Pro how can you possibly defend any of the Mormon Doctrine when it flys so blatantly in the face of Holy Scripture. I hate to break it to you but Christ and the devil are not brothers. God the Father does not have spirit wives to have eternal sex with to populate the known universe. The most that can be said for the devil is that he was the highest angel but because of his pride he fell. I'm sure all black people will sleep a little better knowing this.
Mormon teaching is so strange how could it be anything but hersey from the mind of a money digger, and yes Joseph Smith was indeed into the ocult and magic. In fact his own father in law despised him for leading him on a wild goose chase looking for buried treasure.
Think about it why would God Almighty let his son walk this earth and fail in his mission to redeem mankind, oh I see he was waiting 1800 years later for Joseph Smith to get it right, some how I don't think so .
I heard you'll be an editor of an old book called "Mormonism Unveiled". Good luck.
I just watched your excellent video and a question keeps troubling me- what is the significance of having golden plates presented by angels, written in “reformed “ Egyptian? Why would any value be placed on plates that were written in a polytheistic language, completely different from our monotheistic faith in One God, the uncreated creator?
Why on earth did Smith consult with Anthon? And above all, why send Harris, the source of his funding? Surely there was a massive risk that Anthon would convince Harris that he had been scammed - and there would go the money.
Is it possible that Harris convinced Smith to write down the Caractors, and then went to New York without telling Smith? Smith may have pretended to have sent Harris afterwards, to take advantage of Harris's ambiguous reaction to Anthon's response.
Harris returned convinced that Joseph Smith was the only person who could translate the characters.
@@danvogel6802 Yeah, my point is that Smith could not have known that outcome. Odds were Anthon would have said "This is fake writing and you are being scammed", and that Harris would have believed Anthon. I don't see the benefit of sending Harris to New York like that.
@@saltech3444 Smith knew the learned could not translate the characters. I'm not sure what his motive was before hand, but he immediately connected it to Isaiah 29, which was fulfilled when the learned could not read the words of the book and he (the unlearned) could.
@@saltech3444 You know darn well what "The odds would be." If you deny that, you are refusing to see or hear. As Vogel states straight- forwardly, js's MIS-use of Isaiah 29 should be obvious up front as a set-up. (js's MISUSE of Isaiah's whole book repeatedly is monumentally insolent of js & should have elicited contempt amongst his "believers." But he knew they had already swallowed the twine & were hungry to be fed continually the whole great wad of it.
Epic 15 second intro. :)
I think the first giveaway that it's fraudulent work is the fact that Joseph couldn't spell characters. I mean how much stock could you put in someone producing text in a different language when he calls them "caractors."
LOL! Apparently his conversations with god didn't include any counseling or insight that would improve his spelling ability!
I must say though...I think I might have personally liked Joe Smith. Every good con deserves appreciation. He was committed to his score to the very end...
Smith winds up being quite a "caractor" himself !! Of course, he revealed he couldn't be a prophet, either, since almost every prophecy he ever spoke failed. Exactly HOW does one come to the conclusion that Joe Smith was anything but a religious huckster ?!?
Mr.Dan Vogel
I just found out about the so called Liahona. That’s pretty intriguing 🧐. Why is this never mentioned in your video’s?
IT'S ALL A FAIRY TALE
Like all religion. It's just newer and easier to debunk is all.
you are the fairy telling tales.
Are there any accounts of the events surrounding Anthon from Martin Harris?
Why would God feel that only Joseph Smith should see these plates? It makes no sense. The excuses and explanations make no sense. After all, the Dead Sea Scrolls can be seen by all.
So are these from a document by JS's actual hand? Or were these first released from the 'Anson Letter' forged by Mark Hoffman?
Hoffman used these characters to forge his document.
The whole story of the translation is too convoluted to reveal any truth. Unknown script with unknown language? The best magic spectacles could do would be to change the writing from the "Caractors" to a known alphabet. Then there would be the language problem. The simple explanation within the religious context would be that JS was able to translate via holy inspiration. That might have held up to scrutiny since religion is a matter of faith. It sounds like JS drug out the story and tossed crumbs to his followers when they began to question. At best the "Caractors" are a mixture of letters and signs as explained over the three videos.
+Anna Morris - "JS was able to translate via holy inspiration"
More like "the fraud JS was able to invent via family involvement"
Lucy Mack was the Calvinist grandmother of the BoM.
i would love to buy an old bible from goodwill and find those pages that harris's wife stole and hid
Professor Anthon: "This language is just gibberish!"
Martin Harris: "So, you agree that this is a language then, huh?"
Professor Anthon: "Uh, it's impossible to translate gibberish."
Martin Harris: "Well, this is because you don't have a pair of special divine spectacles!"
Professor Anthon: *facepalm 😖
Hi Dan I look at the characters and it appears the look very similar to the characters of the language of angels presented by John Dee & Edward Kelley (1500's)
The Book of Mormon...its what a fool believes.
the MORmON faithFOOL !
A translation of the Caractors Document is found at www.bmslr.org
I laughed when i read in the BoM that Joseph Smith saw Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father. It is so absurd.
It's not part of the Book of Mormon text. You are describing the first vision of JS seen in the sacred grove.
"Nephi's PREDICTION" NOT Isaiah's prophecy." A distinction worth at least $200 billion U.S.
To Dan:: maybe so, will be interesting to see what the Israel Antiquites experts say, and if the dating is correct, but I’m going to keep an open mind with a salt shaker near by.😎
No maybe about it. It's a hoax. The characters are taken from the Anthon transcript, which are fake. They don't appear to be engraved but stamped into the plate. The rings follow David Whitmer's description of being D-shaped, but they look modern in that they are perfectly formed from rods. Four inches were sealed.
He was a crafty grifter, I'll give him that.
Joseph Smith, Martin Harris and Brigham Young disliked this video 😂
no he didn't.....
Pure Fiction
Hahaha the Hebrew alphabet is "Reformed Egyptian". The characters Vogel uses were not written by Smith. Brass plates mentioned in the Book of Mormon which are scriptures were laughed at by guys like Vogel. Anti Mormons like Vogel claimed Jews never wrote on brass. But one of the Dead Sea Scrolls is written on brass. The Book of Mormon says the ancients used Metal swords, head plates, etc. Archeologists have found many examples of them., Dan needs to read more instead of making silly claims.
The Apocrypha mentions brass plates. Metallurgy was not know in Mesoamerica until about 900 CE.
@@danvogel6802 really where is it written that brass plates had scriptures on it? Metallurgy was well know in North America where Joseph Smith said it was, when it was, and what type is was. Tell how did Joseph Smith know that metal head plates were used by Native Americans? No one in 1829 knew there was even head plates let alone metal ones. Humm
@@henochparks Trying to move the goal posts, hey? Well, you said writing on metal plates was unknown in JS's day. You have been misinformed about actual history of the North American Indian and metallurgy. However, JS and his contemporaries mistook metal object, included steel swords, found in the mounds and elsewhere as artifacts from ancient America, when actually they were European artifacts.
@@danvogel6802 We notice you don't cite your sources. Show us claims of brass plates with scriptures in 1829. I will show you Hebrew writing on precious metals and brass plates thousands of years ago unknown to Joseph Smith.
@@henochparks I told you it was in the Apocrypha. See 1 Mac. 8:22; 14:27. It doesn't say what language these records were written in, but it could have been Hebrew. The BofM brass plates, as you should know, were written in Egyptian. Do you have any examples of the five books of Moses written in Egyptian on brass plates?
"SPIRITUAL ILLITERACY.". ✌️✌️
Dude, the character's were verified actually. The man got a signed certificate and everything.
The problem with your reply is that the "caractors" listed by Smith are fraudulent at best. Even if Smith copied the text from other writings, that doesn't mean that the message Smith meant to portray was original. Look at the texts found within the said BofM that were copied directly from the King James version of the Bible !! No credible scholar would back up such an obvious copycat. Borrowed terms and borrowed names, nothing more. These problems just scratch the surface concerning Smith and his lack of veracity....
+DJ7223 there is a computer program that takes words phrases and whole chapters under scrutiny when someone ran the book of mormon through it 7 different books were found hidden within its covers chapters from the old testament stories from a book named the first book of napoleon place names come from the book capitan kidd. the book is false plagiarized and so is the church
Anthon or Chandler?