Book of Mormon Witnesses - Pt 2 - The Eight - Dan Vogel
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- Опубліковано 20 жов 2024
- In this video, I discuss how relying on the published Testimony of Eight Witnesses has led many to incorrectly assume the experience of the eight men was completely natural and physical. I present evidence that the eight witnesses saw the plates in vision and offer four possible scenarios for how that occurred. I also discuss the apologetic resistance to new evidence regarding the experiences of the eight witnesses.
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Hi Dan, I am a huge fan. You clarify for me the madness of this doctrine and history, I freely use your research when in discussions on this subject. Keep rockin'
If the plates were tangible, physical objects, why did the men need to pray and exercise faith to be able to see them?
Another great video, Dan! Thanks for all you are doing--and for sharing your research with us.
long story short... There were no witnesses. Nobody saw the plates
+masterjbrown Of course not ! There were no plates !
They saw them with their spiritual eyes 🤣
@@eversosleight 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Exactly. That’s all. No need to argue or opine.
How can a man who claimed to see Jesus in the form of a deer, which walked alongside him and conversed with him, be considered a reliable witness?
😂😂😂😂😂
Great work! Love the video. Anderson is like all the other apologists with whom I am familiar. When it comes to Mormonism Anderson is just intellectually dishonest. But it wouldn't make any difference to me if all the 11 witnesses claimed they really saw the plates with their natural eyes. That is just not how the world works. Mark Twain's comment is classic--something like "I couldn't be more convinced if the entire Whitmer family had testified."
This Part 2 was not quite as dispositive as Part 1. My reason for saying this is that we are left to rely most heavily on the statements of Martin Harris about the experiences of the 8 witnesses. That is hearsay, since he was not one of the 8 and was not there.
Not that I disagree with your conclusions, or what you make of the paucity of data. Martin Harris' statements have some evidentiary value in raising questions about the published statement of the 8 witnesses, but one might also question whether he was attributing his strictly visionary experience as one of the 3 witnesses to theirs.
This is not a criticism, just an observation. Your work is the best in this field.
Impressive presentation. Perhaps the most thorough video research found online on this topic. I appreciate your rational, reasonable approach.
Fascinating information! Thanks so much for making this available at such a relevant time in mormon church history.
Gold plates? Native Americans are jews?? And Joseph Smith was able to read ancient Egyptian??? Cmon mormons be honest with yourselfs. Its ludicrous to believe such bull. And more important, Joseph is not preaching christianity. He is preaching Josephstanaty. Wake up.
F. Moussa, keep in mind that most Mormons have been raised from childhood to revere Joseph Smith. It is very hard for most people to reject the religion of their parents. Almost any religion seems ridiculous to those outside it.
If the plates were actual physical objects which the witnesses could "handle with their hands", why did the men need to pray or exercise faith to see them?
We all need to pray and exercise faith to grow up more and become more. Remember that the essence or purposes of life is growth and to become and to overcome. A baby can grow up and become an adult we can grow up and become more grown up like our Heavenly parents. I say parents because we all keep our bodies after resurrection. Why come to earth get a body if we can not keep it after resurrection. Do you believe in a resurrection.? Do you believe that we are more than a physical body ? . Why do You think or believe we are here on this spinning blue planet.? What do you think like is all about? I know that the essence or purposes of life is growth and to become and to overcome. I know that a baby can grow up and become an adult. I know that we can grow up and become more like our Heavenly parents. I know that we are here for a purpose a reason and that some of those reasons or purposes are ..to get a body. To develop faith and to go through growing experiences for the calisstecticks of growth and becoming like our Heavenly parents. I say Heavenly parents because we all keep our bodies after resurrection..why come to earth get a body if we can not keep it after resurrection. Remember that the essence or purposes of life is growth and to become and to overcome.
@@ronbrewer3493 You do? I haven’t prayed my whole life and yet I’m grown. I have a wonderful family, beautiful children. You didn’t answer the mans question. If the plates are real why didn’t God show them the physical plates? Even God must know that fantastical claims require fantastical evidence. Only a con artist would say, you have to have faith to see them. Joseph Smith reminds me of the story “The Emperors New Clothes”. Mormonism relies on prayer and a feeling in the bosom to know truth. Feelings are not an accurate way to know truth. How about all the other religions where people have powerful religious experiences feelings in the bosom? Feelings and prayer are actually a very poor way to know truth.
@@TheChenny73 ok I like your thinking in some ways .And yes if a family is strong in keeping the commandments or the laws or rules they truly can become very beautiful and wonderful. No problem. If I new everything I would be a God. I do not know everything but as I grow and learn I can handle more lesson in becoming. If you want to have more of the training of a good electoral engineer you mu
@@TheChenny73 sorry I hit the button. Engineer you must learn the disiaplents of a Good responsible engineer. You will need to go through some testings and some experiences . You must have a beautiful wonderful family and that is fabulous.
ADAM when he was cast out of the garden and was offering sacrifice . He was ask why do you offer sacrifice. Adam replied I know not why other than I was commanded to..now we know that it was in solmilitude of what our Heavenly Father was going to do with sending His only begotten son Jesus Christ to earth as a sacrifice to be hung on the cross .Are you a Christian? Do you believe in Christ.? What do you think of this life? Why do you believe we are here ? Where do you believe we came from,? Do you believe that we are more than a physical body? If so where do you believe our spirit came from ? Please tell me what you think ? I know that if I new everything I would be a God. I am not a God but nearther is a baby an adult. A baby can not even wipe its own bottom.. please tell me what you think believe and know .love to hear from you.
@@TheChenny73 i have more questions if you would be so kind to answer those ..
Always fascinating videos Dan Vogel. Thanks for all the hard work.
I am amazed at the amount of research you have done on LDS-related issues. I think it makes you a credible witness to the LDS. I am not an LDS member, but I have a true love for them, hoping they learn the truth.
I'm one of those annoying people who point out anachronisms in movies and TV programs. In the painting of the men gathered around the stump, they are wearing suits from the 1880s.
You're a master Dan! I love the setting of your library. I love books.
Being a Mormon I like Dan Vogel’a research he just lets the facts out.
Yup, same here.
For something that should not be murky, the published testimonies of the witnesses do little to support the proposition that the Book of Mormon is actually what is claimed for it. And, the machinations of Mormon apologists to make a case for its antiquity are pretty laughable.
I’m seeing a million dollars that belongs to me, in my spiritual eyes. Let me know where I can cash in.
Lol!
I believe Mormonism fails in its foundation--Joseph Smith Jr. was visited by God and Jesus Christ. The Bible clearly outlines that this would not be possible. It is this very premise that creates doubt to any true Christian. It appears that Mormonism also places faith in the Church over faith in Jesus Christ, claiming that their Church is Christ's true Church, but uses and places more faith in the Book of Mormon than the Bible.
It would be hard pressed to have any true Christian to place faith in anything other than the Bible or Jesus Christ. Errors in doctrine: Jesus Christ and Lucifer being brothers, this is but one contradictory belief that Mormons hold true. Jesus Christ is God's only begotten son. To say that Lucifer is Jesus Christ's brother would suggest that He had a sibling. This isn't what the Bible says, which I might add, was God's word long before the Book of Mormon.
So, I would have to say a close examination of the Book of Mormon would lead the investigator to coming to the conclusion that it isn't what it claims to be. At best, it is a work by a man that had some serious character flaws and wasn't truly a man of God, as he claimed. It would be dishonest and very in-genuine to say that Joseph Smith Jr.
Claim to being a prophet of God, along with the prophets of the Mormon Church has any validity or credibility
Sean Tash Tas
When Group Thinking and the Semmelweiss Reflex are combined, we can see the power of Group Thinking and experience Group Conscientious Effect.
The psychological effect of standing alone against the masses results in the Semmelweis Reflex,
When we decide to become members of a group, first we need to evaluate their ideology to see if it conflicts with our own.
When we join a group we will feel the pressure to adopt their ideologies and not question. The results is Abandoning my own morels and values to fit with the group
or remain an outsider and not accepted.
This is process of how we can become something we would have never otherwise or co opted into seeing what was not, as did the witnesses to the BOM.
Oddly - what could have been arguably the most historic event of the 1800s no-one thought to hire a non Mormon 3rd party viewer or a notary public - making this all more complicated than it should be (ie - that no-one saw anything).
Dan - I very much enjoyed this and the rest of your videos. I was just wondering how you reconciles Harris' statements that he, Joseph and everyone else only saw the plates in visions, with him saying he handled them under a sheet? I know the theories of Joseph making metal plates as a prop to help keep things going, but that wouldn't account for Martin's contradictory statements that he handled them without seeing them, yet Joseph never saw them either? Thoughts?
Harris handled the plates when either in a box or covered with a cloth before his vision. At those times, he claimed, to see them through the covering by second sight. Harris's saying JS also never saw them was based on his interpretation of D&C 17, which said the witnesses would see them just as JS saw them. Harris applied his experience to JS's, when the revelation was really telling them to testify that they had seen them with their natural eyes although it would be a vision. This made their published testimony sound stronger than it actually was. This discrepancy was noticed by ex-Mormon Ezra Booth in 1831 and the revelation wasn't published in the 1833 Book of Commandments.
+Josh Clark Smith was a master of manipulation. He would have been perfectly able to convince a dolt such as Harris that he saw the devil, Santa, and the Easter Bunny walking in the woods. Actually, Harris was capable of arriving at the conviction on his own.
Terrific work
"If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools" --- Rudyard Kipling
Even without knowing the history, the text of the witnessing has problems in itself. The 3 proclaim that the plates contain "a record of the people of Nephi and also of the Lamanites..." etc. But if Joseph was the one with the "gift of translation" they couldn't have testified to the story told in the plates. Then the 8 say: "... all of which has the appearance of ancient work...". How did they know what "ancient work" looks like? They were no experts, so they were in no position to testify to that.
Do any metal plates exist anywhere? I mean as found at sites of antiquity. Are there any collections of plates telling a story in any culture?
Yes, check out the Copper Scroll - I believe there have also been discovered tiny gold plates with Etruscan writing on them.
@Kenzie K I am an atheist, so you had better direct your statements elsewhere. To me all "prophets" are false prophets, so it is pointless to target one or another.
@Kenzie K Direct your statements elsewhere regardless.
I suspect that the only Mormons who now defend the faith vehemently are those on the inside, i.e. the top brass to to speak (the "apostles" and upper management) who have deeply vested personal interests, plus members who are not fully aware of the actual teachings and doctrines of the LDS organization.
For example, do members know about Kolob? Or that Joseph Smith claimed the moon was inhabited; or that Brigham Young claimed the SUN was inhabited?
Are they familiar with the teaching that God was once a MAN and through his behavior became God? Do they know the LDS doctrine that after death, men become founders of new universes, become Gods (gods?) themselves? Do they realize the extent to which temple rituals are based on Freemasonry? Do they know the history of Joseph Smith in detail, for example that he was deeply into the occult?
Have they researched the "Book of Abraham"? (an egregious fraud, easily exposed by Egyptologists)
Are they aware of the astounding similarities between the "Book of Mormon" and other books written before the BoM, relating a supposed Jewish ancestry to native Americans?
And do they know that DNA analysis has proven that the American Indians' ancestors were NOT Jews, but Asians?
I have no doubt that with the increasing availability of information, through the Internet, there will be a rapidly accelerating fall-off in the Mormon church --- and their missionaries will experience more and more resistance in their visitations.
When my spouse and I were approached many years ago, the story of the "translation" of the "Book of Mormon" was that Joseph Smith used a "urim" and a "thummin" formed into spectacles to read the plates, but that's been changed, and now the LDS organization avers that Smith put a seer stone in his hat, stuck his head in his hat to keep light out, and DICTATED the "Book of Mormon" without looking at the metal plates!
Blessings!
" that Joseph Smith claimed the moon was inhabited;" No he didn't. This is just a myth.
"Brigham Young claimed the SUN was inhabited?" He did not say that. Go back to your sound and see what he actually said.
Urim and Thummin == he used both the seer stone and the Urim and Thummin at different times in the translation process..
kitty, how is it you assume LDS know less of their church than you? They have all the access to the books that you do but the real ones not tainted ones that you get from haters. Don't you think people in the church want to know too some believe the gospel haters put out or people misguided by false materials. Like you prob do
As incredible as it may seem, LDS publications bear testimony that Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon Church, and Brigham Young, second Prophet of the Church, taught the moon was inhabited. In an 1892 LDS publication under the heading "THE INHABITANTS OF THE MOON," this interesting information is given by Oliver B. Huntington:
"Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a Prophet.
"As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do -- that they live generally to near the age of 1000 years.
"He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style.
"In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet, in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can now behold with your eyes." (The Young Woman's Journal, published by the Young Ladies' Mutual Improvement Associations of Zion, 1892, vol. 3, pp. 263-64)
President Brigham Young not only taught the moon was inhabited, but the SUN as well. In a sermon delivered in the Tabernacle in Salt Lake City, President Young made these unbelievable statements:
"Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?...when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 271) #
Kitty Kitty, most religions seem ridiculous to those outside them. I have a lot of Mormon relatives, and I don't see any particular tendency for people to leave Mormonism.
"as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated, we did handle with our hands"
Well, considering that Smith merely dictated what he saw on the rock in his hat and didn't actually translate any of the leaves, they couldn't have handled any such leaves. Sneaky sneaky.
Why the Hell were the witnesses a big deal when JS never used them to ‘translate’ (I’m using ‘translate’ loosely). Since he merely put a stone in a hat and recited, why were the plates and witnesses needed???? 🤪🤪🤪
Awesome!
I love how apologists call straight out lies anachronisms in the book of mormon. How did Joseph Smith know 150 years in the future his followers would still have faith in his book after science proved it was all a crock of lies.
Seeing something by a vision and not natural eye is a normal biblical way of saying, thatunnatural things occured in that event.
I don’t see any signatures.
The only copy of the testimonies of the 3 and 8 witnesses is in Cowdery handwriting in the printer's manuscript. The original was lost.
How can multiple people have seen them though If it was only two I would understand but over 10? They must have had some sort of experience
Did you listen to the program, said never saw with real eyes and only touched they cloth. Why didn't someone just jerk the cover off so all could actually see it was tin plates handmade
Check out Wayne May's videos of the archaeological evidence of the truth of the book of Mormon.
Spiritual eye means not with normal vision. Just so questionable
Hi Dan, your videos are so interesting. I would like to tell you that I believe the three witnesses experienced what is called "the eye of understanding" or clairvoyance. This is a gift of the spirit. I have experienced it a few times. It's manifested when you seek an answer to a prayer. The answer is given in a spiritual fashion. A part of the brain is activated and with your eyes closed you get the answer. It's a vision. It can be a sentence written on the screen of your mind, a voice, or a recollection of a time past. Marcel Proust experienced this when he ate a madeleine. Joseph seemed to be gifted as a seer and he could have others see the same thing. Kirtland seems to have brought that ability but I am reminded of Bernadette of Lourdes. She could be surrounded by people and still be the only one who could see the Lady. I have been apprenticing to be a Christian in the Church for 51 years and I believe I am sane of mind. The world is very interesting n'est-ce-pas?
Why Paint it.....Photography existed.....Duh!-- Paint things that never happened.
As I first looked over Mr. Vogel's discourse I was intrigued unsure if he was pro or con on the subject of the Book of Mormon. I was disappointed that in the end he confessed that his purpose was to tare down and tarnish rather than to build up. Without his final confession I would still be in the dark. Mr. Vogel's mission I guess is to tare down much like Karl Marx who tries to discredit capitalism without presenting a viable replacement for that which he spends so much effort to destroy. I sat in a courtroom as a juror in a trial involving a double homicide. In deliberations each bit of evidence by itself could be picked apart but all together the preponderance of the of the evidence was guilty. The Church with the Book of Mormon as it's key stone is guilty of being true and all it purports to be. Mr. Vogel's report I found interesting and I am more convinced now than before. His attempt in opposition proves the need that there be opposition in all things. To gain strength truth is found in proving all things. It is only in debate that truth can be uncovered. Still 12 men never denied their witness that the work is true and a man will draw nearer to God by the precuts of the Book of Mormon than by any other book just like Joseph Smith said. Do not pray for God to be on your side - Rather pray that you will be found on his side. E.R.B.
I guess I should refrain from casting pearls before swine who continue to speak evil of things they do not understand. Until we can see the truth in all things we will never be able to fully understand anything.
He asked you to show specifically where the video is wrong instead you make a meaningless statement.
"without presenting a viable replacement" are you talking about Vogel or only Marx? If Vogel what is he supposed to be providing a replacement for?
I am more concerned with is it even plausible than is it Christian.
MAN will draw nearer to God by having many wives and children so they can become Gods themselves in there own kingdoms?
This is what l was taught all my life and to me l found it very disturbing this was doctrine!!.. Especially the polygamy era which was never properly taught in any lesson? And still is practiced for mans benefit ie: he can marry and seal multiple wives if his wife dies... But the woman can't?
I was shown movies with the narrative of the time.. JS only using glasses looking over the gold plates translating. Never a head in a hat?
The early history never taught JS occult like Gold digging.
The first vision not told till yrs later..
JF smith tearing a page out of the different account of 1st vision that didn't sit with the narrative... keeping it in hidden for yrs then re attaching the page ?.
Basically only in 2015 did the church essays get added, which was NEVER in my time mentioned in any Sunday school lesson..
None of my family members never knew about it when l directed them to it..???
This seems all too problematic.. 😪
A lie is a lie deception is Deception..
Cognitive dissonance is a major problem..
I keep all the good things l experienced along my journey l keep the good relationships close to my heart..
I strive to worship only my Lord Jesus Christ.. 🙏😇❤
edwardrunning. Do you mean "TEAR down," as in obliterate? Or "tare down" as in separating wheat from tares"? What a wonderful (tho' likely inadvertent) parallel!!! [Hint: tares would burn with rubble of obliterated fantasy tower]. After all, it is all about termination, isn't it? Oops, I mean TERMINOLOGY. 😶
Does he have a college degree?
Joseph Smith never went to college.
The first minute of your video
Depictions of the Three and Eight Witnesses.
It is interesting that the award winning author Dan Vogel "forgets" to mention that depictions of religious scenes frequently use artistic license in the portrayal -- it is not true to life.. A well-known example is the nativity scene where the baby Jesus, Joseph, and Mary, and the shepherds are also joined by the "three" magi. Of course it was about two years later when they arrived, and the number of Magi is unknown.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativity_scene#/media/File:Maiori_Presepe_Giardini_Mezzacapo_2004_038.JPG
Good point! Came across a very compelling video! Google ''The Dead sea Scrolls disprove Mormonism???-Really?? You Tube''
cdowis Of course, I know artists take license. That's not my point. The point is right or wrong art can influence even historians like Richard Anderson to claim JS put the plates on a tree stump for the eight witnesses to examine. Artistic renderings have been based on superficial readings of the two published Testimonies and they got it wrong because they didn't do their research. But this is a silly point you are trying to make anyhow.
Dan Vogel
"Of course, I know artists take license. "
Of course. Just wanted to make sure that this point was made clear to your audience, since you didn't.
Otherwise, the impression would be made, "There go those damn Mormons being deceptive again."
Anyway, as you said elsewhere, we have no common ground for discussion, since you think that angels, revelation, and miracles are sheer nonsense. You simply want us to see the real world. You want us to understand that witnesses to divine experiences have a natural explanation -- the Twelve apostles in the Bible, and those modern witnesses to visions and angelic visits as well.
You and Dawkins may be taking a different approach, but you both end up on the same path.
Even a believer in the supernatural would have to explain Mormon claims naturally. Christians, for example, do not have to believe JS was either inspired by God or the devil. There is nothing preventing them from agreeing with me about JS, as if it is only my naturalism that makes me disbelieve JS's claims. I can't possibly have legitimate concerns about the BOM's historicity.
Dan Vogel
You viewers need to know where you are coming from. You can make equally strong arguments for a naturalistic explanation for the resurrection of Christ.
They need to know which side of the fence you are sitting. You use your persuasive interpretion skills to attack Joseph Smith and demands for proof, but these same skills would be used against their own religion.
It's easy to attack the Mormons, but why don't you use the same tactics on a greater target, such as Dawkins against any religious claims.
The existence of Gold Plates is small potatoes compared to the resurrection. Why not tackle that with your brilliant insights.
I think you have an obligation to your viewers who need to know what you are about. If you don't want to do it, I am happy to help you out.
Half a hundred accounts of the testimonies of the witnesses regarding the plates being physically real. But we can just throw those out I guess and listen to disillusioned letters and secondhand hearsay.
Your representation of the sources is dishonest. There are
not 50 accounts of the witnesses saying the plates were real, although the
plates were physically real according to my reconstruction. I only maintain
they were not seen uncovered. The statements to which you refer are also “secondhand
hearsay.” However, they only reaffirm their testimonies in the Book of Mormon,
which begs the question as to what that Testimony actually means. I showed that
it was dangerous to reconstruct the event behind the Testimony of Three Witness
using only their printed testimony. Subsequent statements by the three
witnesses greatly modified the unifying Testimony. I maintain that it is a
mistake to try and reconstruct the event behind the Testimony of Eight
Witnesses using only the printed text. In the video, I used multiple sources to
show that Martin Harris in 1838 declared in public the eight witnesses saw the
plates with the spiritual eye. This public declaration wasn’t misrepresented by
Burnet’s report as it was substantiated in a local newspaper. The report of
John Whitmer’s admission that he saw the plates by the power of God was
reported by Theodore Turley and included in Joseph Smith’s official history. I’m
sorry you were led to believe otherwise, but the best reconstruction will
consider all the sources.
@@danvogel6802 The issue is you set out to prove something you already consider false. Therefore you will naturally grab everything that proves this. Apologists do the same on the other end of the spectrum. There are far too many clear accounts of literal viewing/handling the plates to honestly conclude otherwise. I'll concede that I haven't devoted my professional life to studying Mormon history, as you have, but I don't think the narrative you create here accounts for the many testimonies for these witnesses, which, when considered, come out much stronger than the "ordinary" explanation point of view you maintain here.
450/400 Man What accounts of what people actually saw the plates? Give us some references because there are none. Nobody saw those plates, the actual object with their actual eyes.
anyone can do a video on anything and say what they want truths with lies and gossip they pulled off somewhere. I think if you want to know about any church you need to visit your self and ask questions and make comments
Bobby C: sure, go to a Mormon church service and attend Sunday School and ask why Joseph Smith used a rock in his hat to transcribe the Book of Mormon and see what kind of response you get, lol.
I mean did you really just compare scholarly discourse to lies and.gossip???
Blah...blah... The whole article goes back and forth life fart in the wind...
to support such fabulas, many Mormon's followers face the ridiculous of explain how many witnessed see the gold plates, if the lier J.Smith was executed, is because there were persons who not tolerate such blasfemy and God knows who is who.
LIES !
Accusing others of lying without good reasons is an act of desperation!!!
niu motu'u You will never be worthy of Christ's true church.
Wow! That is such a convincing & powerful argument, Elder Marshall !
With respect, could you expand on the remark please? And would you at the same time comment on the following? For me, the Book of Mormon presents HUGE problems that cannot be explained away:
LANGUAGE: 1 Ne. 1:2, etc., states that Hebrews who left Jerusalem and came to the Americas spoke Egyptian. It is a known fact that Hebrews spoke Hebrew, and their records were kept in Hebrew. Egyptians were their enemies. It is absurd to think that Hebrews would have written their sacred history in Egyptian as to think that American History would have been written in Russian. In Mormon 9:32, 34, it is state that the language was "reformed Egyptian" and that no other people knew their language. There is no known language called "reformed Egyptian."
DESERT FRUIT: 1 Ne. 17:5 talks about ample fruit and wild honey being products of Sinai desert (called Bountiful). Not possible!
DESERT TIMBER: 1 Ne. 18:1 talks about ample timber that these Jews used to build a ship. There is not ample timber in that area. It was a desert. It still is a desert.
LAMAN RIVER: 1 Ne. 2:6-9 mentions a river named Laman that flows into the Red Sea. There is no river there and has not been since the Pleistocene era.
BOTANICAL PROBLEMS are many in the Book of Mormon. Wheat, barley, olives, etc., are mentioned, but none of these were in the Americas at that time.
ANIMALS: North America had no cows, asses, horses, oxen, etc. Europeans brought them hundreds and hundreds of years later. North America had no lions, leopards, nor sheep at that time. Honey bees were brought here by Europeans much later. Ether 9:18, 19, lists domestic cattle, cows, and oxen as separate species! They did not even exist in the Americas at that time.
The Book of Mormon also mentions swine as being useful to man. Maybe, but Jews would not think of swine as being useful or good; swine were forbidden, unclean animals to them.
Horses, asses, and elephants were not in the Americas either.
And what on earth are "cureloms" and "cumoms"? No such animals have ever been identified anywhere. Domestic animals that are thought to be "useful" would hardly become extinct.
Ether 9:30-34 talks about poisonous snakes driving sheep to the south. The Book of Mormon states that the people ate the snake-killed animals, all of them! (v. 34). Hebrews would not have eaten animals that were killed that way.
Chickens and dogs did not exist in the Americas at that time either.
BUTTER is also mentioned, but it could not possibly exist, since no milk-producing animals were found in the Americas at that time.
CLOTHING MATERIAL: No silk and wool clothing (or moths) existed at that time either, contrary to 1 Ne. 13:7; Alma 4:6; Ether 9:17 and 10:24.
BEHEADING: Beheaded Shiz --- Ether 15:30-31 says that after Shiz was beheaded, he raised up and struggled for breath!
MISCALCULATIONS: In Ether, chapter 6, we learn that furious winds propelled the barges to the promised land for 344 days! Even if the winds were not "furious" but, for example, blew only 10 miles per hour, the distance traveled in 344 days would have been 82,560 miles, or more than three times around the world. Absurdity, to say the least!
And why would the Lord instruct Jared to make a hole on top and bottom of each barge? (Ether 2:20).
POPULATION: When Lehi left Jerusalem, according to the Book of Mormon, his group consisted of fewer than 20 people. Yet 19 years later the people had so prospered and multiplied in the Promised Land that they built a temple of which the "manner of construction was like unto the temple of Solomon: and the workmanship thereof was exceeding fine" (2. Ne. 5:16).
Looking at what the Bible says about the construction of Solomon's temple, we find that it took 30,000 Israelites, 150,000 hewers of stone and carriers, 3,300 supervisors (I Kings 5:13-16) and about seven years to build it (See also I Kings 6).
And how many people could Lehi have had in his group after 19 years?
The book further tells that in less than 30 years after arriving on this continent, they had multiplied so rapidly that they even divided into two nations. Even the most rapid human reproduction could only have resulted in a few dozen in that brief time, and most of them still would be infants and children and about one-third older people.
Not only did they divide into two nations, but throughout the book, about every few years, they had devastating wars that killed thousands (i.e., Alma 28:2).
SKIN COLOR: Beginning after the first 19 years or so, Laman and Lemuel and their descendants and followers (!) turned dark skinned because of their disobedience (2 Ne. 5:21). According to the Book of Mormon, dark skin color was a curse from God! This change of skin color takes place throughout the book. In 2 Ne. 30:6 we read that if Lamanites accepted the true gospel, they became "white and delightsome" (and since the 1981 printing of the Book of Mormon, they became "pure and delightsome.)
But if they left this true gospel, they became "dark and loathsome." People's skin color does not change if they believe or do not believe! Nor is the skin color a curse!
The Book of Mormon teaches that Indians originated from these Jewish settlers. Indians are distinctly Mongoloid. They have the "Mongoloid" blue spot, specific blood traits, and their facial features are of typical Asian origin, not Semitic at all. Current DNA evidence has confirmed this as well.
Questionable Materials for This Time Period
In Ether 7:8-9, we read of steel and breakable windows (2:23) in Abraham's time! Try to explain that to an archaeologist. Steel was not even developed until about 1400 years later.
At the end of the Book of Mormon, Moroni tells about a great battle that took place on the Hill Cumorah. Over 200,000 people, armed to their teeth, were killed on that hill. The story tells about Their weapons, breastplates, helmets, swords etc. Nothing has ever been found on that hill or anywhere else in this continent. As a matter of fact, metal, helmets, swords, etc., do not disappear in a mere 1400 years.
Before the LDS Church purchased the Hill Cumorah, it was literally dug full of holes and even caves, but nothing was ever found. (Joseph Smith told about a cave inside Hill Cumorah and how they - he and Oliver - went in and out of it. Supposedly it had wagon loads of gold plates, Laban sword, etc.)
When people dig even for worms in the Holy Land, they make discoveries. In contrast to the Book of Mormon, cities, places, coins, clothing, swords, etc. mentioned in the Bible have been found by archaeologists, but not one single place mentioned in the Book of Mormon has ever been identified.
There are still people in the LDS Church who believe that archaeology has proved, at least to a degree, the Book of Mormon. Some missionaries are still using slide presentations of ruins from Mexico and South America, implying that they prove the Book of Mormon, but they are from an entirely DIFFERENT TIME PERIOD and are ruins of idol worshipers who offered human sacrifices.
further: www.namb.net/apologetics/the-truth-about-mormonism
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Elder Marshall. What part is lies ?
Dan Vogel Thank you I really enjoyed both parts
So what who cares .if you have 8 people ot 10 people you will get 10 or eight different perceptions and wording if they are all left to Wright on their own..DAN WHO CARES you can find fault with and learn to hate anybody or anything by finding fault. Look at what they did to Christ by finding fault and trying to poke holes in Him and who he is as the only begotten of the Father. Here is what I do know that the essence of life is growth and to become and to overcome. As we grow up and become more like our Heavenly Father our perceptions experiences and understanding deepen .God did have some of his children on this side of the whole world. God did have prophets on this side of the world. I know that Jesus is the Christ the savior of the whole world. I know that Mormon was a real man and a true prophet of God also Alma Mosiah Nephi Abenidi and meny others. A lot of this garbage is here say .Dan did not live back then. He was not in the tent with the bear. Also meny people have different ways and words they use to talk about things .I know that the book of Mormon is true. I also know that the holy bible is true. People like Dan just get a lot of mileage by finding fault and are like those who found fault with Christ and crusified Him. God our Heavenly Father has always called and worked with his true prophets regardless of their weaknesses. Dan needs to be working on his own weaknesses rather than finding fault. For I can tell you that it is our weaknesses that keep us from God. People found fault with Christ but He had the truth. Why find fault.. the purposes or essence of life is growth and to become and to overcome. Dan will only hurt myself and those that believe his garbage in funding fault .Dan is like those who found fault with lord Jesus. The earth was divided geniuse 10 25 God did have prophets and people on this side of the world. Lots of Dan's garbage is hear say ..there is so much more to life than finding fault with Christ and His true living prophets and apostles. I do not know why Dan enjoys finding fault other than he is getting a lot of mileage out of people's perceived weaknesses or mistake .if we new everything we would be Gods we are not Gods but nearther is a baby an adult. THE ESSENCE OF LIFE IS GROWTH AND TO BECOME AND TO OVERCOME. we all have the right to make mistakes to learn from them hopefully we all learn from them. Why Dan hurt yourself and your potential by finding fault with things you do not know everything about. You did not live back then you were not in the tent with the bear..also I kn that people can read the holy bible and make it say most anything they want by reading what they want into the holy bible. Dan can you grow up and stop hurting yourself and your potential? again you did not live back then you were not in the tent with the bear. Let's all grow up and try to become more like our Heavenly Father. Dan can you do it .???
Ron Brewer, how do you know that all this is true? How do you know that Mormon, Alma, Mosiah, Nephi, and Abinadi were real men? How do you know the Book of Mormon is true? How do you know the Holy Bible is true? I'm a little confused here. Isn't it Mormon doctrine that at least some of the Bible is not true?
@@exmormonroverpaula2319 well I can tell you why I know because I have experienced it in meny ways. Because I have received personal witness of it .I know what salt tast like .God has told me in my mind and heart .because it is paterans of how God works .even sence this spinning blue planet and all the worlds of our Heavenly Father were created any time we as real children of real Heavenly parents have desired to grow up and become more like our Heavenly Father He has always called called true living prophets teachers to help us overcome our weaknesses and misunderstandings and faults beliefs. Because I have never read or heard of a perfect prophet. Prophets have the right to make mistakes to learn from them hopefully they learn from them. Becouse it is our weaknesses that keep us from God. Because you could not develop faith if you new everything and if you new everything you would be a God. You are not a God but nearther is a baby an adult. Becouse We are here on earth to get a body to develop faith and to go through experiences to grow up and become like our Heavenly parents. The essence or purposes of life is growth and to become and to overcome. It is our weaknesses that keep us from God. If you want to have more you must become more. If you want to have more of the things of God you must become more like He is. People get excited about ouning a new car a new piece of land .why don't they get excited about keeping the commandments and overcoming themselves and their weaknesses so that they can own a univerce. That baby can grow up and become an adult we can grow up and become like our Heavenly parents. So what if I fail at a thing I fail at a thing I am not a failure God did not make any junk .we are real children of real Heavenly parents. We are here to grow up and become like our Heavenly Father. I am only one and the Father of my children that does not mean that there cannot be more fathers. The same is true with our Heavenly Father He is only one and the Father of our spirit before we got our bodies. That does not mean that there cannot be more fathers in heaven to .there is no limit to space. I love it Gods love and grace is so cool .I know it because you do not go walking in the desert find a beautiful ornate watch and pick it up and see who made it , we do not find ourselves on this spinning blue planet and not know that their is a creator. We are more that a physical body. We will die .we will be resurrected. Now do you want to know who Jesus Christ is? do you want to know who the devil is .? do you want to know who I am ? Do you want to know how you can truly be happy? .I do not know all the answers but God our Heavenly Father has been very kind to me. I know because He our Heavenly Father loves you as much as he loves me .I do not know everything and if I did know everything I would be a God. I am not a God but nearther is that little baby an adult. Faith love overcoming and becoming. I am happy you are asking questions .may God in his grace give you answers as you are ready to change and handle the responsibility of them .because if you know to do good and you do not meny times you and I can dam ourselves of that growing up and becoming. Love and thanks for asking. Be happy and know that if you fail at a thing you fail at a thing .you are not a failure .you are special with great potential. Love love love .
@@exmormonroverpaula2319 oh about the holy bible. I have never read anywhere in the holy bible where Christ Himself did any writing except for in the sand so who wrote the holy bible true prophets teachers of God..Ever sence this spinning blue planet was created anytime we as real children of real Heavenly parents have desired or decited to grow up and become more like our Heavenly parents God has always called true living prophets teachers. Not only for what it would make out of them but for the good in becoming like God our Heavenly Father ..that baby can grow up and become an adult. We can grow up and become like our Heavenly parents. Prophets have to grow up in understanding faith and development to. Not one of them are perfect. Thay are not complete. All of us have lots of growing up to do .I know I do .love
Ron Brewer, to me it sounds like you are saying you know Dan Vogel is wrong and that the scriptures are true because that's what your own feelings tell you. The problem with that is that people feel all sorts of things. There are billions of Muslims in the world, and their feelings tell them that the Quran is true and that Muhammad was the last prophet. If that's true, Joseph Smith can't possibly have been a prophet. So, who's right? Feelings just don't help very much in deciding who's right between Muhammad and Joseph Smith. If you actually have any interest in convincing me, you're going to have to come up with something better than your own private feelings.
@Kenzie K well I do care .let me ask you some questions. Are you a Christian ? Do you believe that you have a purpose in being here on this spinning blue planet. ? DO YOU BELIEVE that you are more than a physical body. Meny people said Christ was a lier but was he really a lier ? Do you believe in the holy bible? Please answer these questions.
The translation of the statement "seeing with spiritual eyes" is equivalent to someone telling you they have created a fantasy story known as bullshit!