The Book of Abraham - Is Joseph Smith's Translation Accurate? | Ep. 1701 | LDS Discussions Ep. 30
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- Опубліковано 3 лип 2024
- For many, the Book of Abraham is one of the most problematic subjects within Mormonism due to our ability to translate Egyptian after Joseph Smith released the Book of Abraham. We want to give a brief overview of the history of the Book of Abraham, looking at the facsimiles and manuscripts, and then review the church's response to how this can all be reconciled.
LDS Discussions Essay on the Book of Abraham:
www.ldsdiscussions.com/bookof...
LDS Discussions Playlist: • Joseph Smith and Treas...
Chapters:
00:00:00 Introduction
00:12:40 Our Book of Abraham Mini-Series
00:16:50 A quick introduction to the Book of Abraham purchase
00:27:00 Joseph Smith translates and releases the Book of Abraham
00:34:25 Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language
00:37:45 A brief Book of Abraham translation timeline
00:41:50 Problems with the Book of Abraham translation
00:46:30 Egyptologists knew as early as 1856 that Joseph got it wrong
00:53:00 The New York Times exposed the Book of Abraham in 1912
00:57:45 The papyrus fragments are found, but have nothing to do with Abraham
01:04:45 Facsimile 1 of the Book of Abraham
01:10:45 Joseph incorrectly fills in the gaps of the facsimile 1
01:14:00 Facsimile 2 of the Book of Abraham
01:18:50 Nemo’s Book of Abraham temple experience
01:21:15 Joseph again incorrectly fills in the gaps of Facsimile 2
01:22:50 Facsimile again shows that we have the source material
01:24:45 What facsimile 2 should have been restored to
01:26:15 The Mormon church castrates God, then reattaches his manhood
01:28:50 A bigger problem with Facsimile 2
01:29:30 Facsimile 3 creates the biggest smoking gun for Joseph Smith
01:34:50 Altering Facsimile 3 to turn the Anubis figure into a human slave
01:36:45 Dr. Robert Ritner sums up the problem with Facsimile 3
01:39:30 The recovered fragments and the Book of Abraham manuscripts
01:41:50 Translating the world “Lake” in the Book of Abraham
01:43:40 Joseph Smith absolutely believed it was a translation
01:46:00 The church’s own essay tells us that Joseph Smith got it wrong
01:48:00 The Book of Abraham translation is quite simple
01:49:45 What’s next in series
Episode Show Notes:
www.mormonstories.org/podcast...
LDS Discussions - Book of Abraham Playlist:
• The Book of Abraham Ov...
Egyptologist Dr. Robert Ritner on the Book of Abraham:
• Dr. Robert Ritner - An...
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Mormon Stories Podcast is the longest-running and most successful podcast in Mormonism - hosted by Dr. John Dehlin. At Mormon Stories we explore, celebrate, and challenge Mormon culture through in-depth stories told by members and former members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We also occasionally interview scholars, authors, LDS apologists, and other professionals. Our overall mission is to: 1) Facilitate informed consent amongst LDS Church members, investigators, and non-members regarding Mormon history, doctrine, and theology, 2) Support Mormons (and members of other high-demand religions) who are experiencing a religious faith crisis, and 3) Promote healing, growth and community for those who choose to leave the LDS Church or other high demand religions.
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#BookofAbraham #mormon #LDSDiscussions
If you want to watch the full series on The Book of Abraham by LDS Discussions be sure to subscribe to the channel.
Overview of the Book of Abraham Series by LDS Discussions: ua-cam.com/play/PLxq5opj6GqOD5DlPu34mlIafEWYmkaPNE.html
You really should stop feeling the need to dumb down & explain everything that your guest's have just said. I understand that you have to explain the visuals for the listeners but you really need to trust the audience a bit more.
Why do you people lie?
7 0bx cvi. The
The easiest Joseph Smith fake to expose.
I really don't understand how Mormons can still take this seriously.
This is about a "church" with $200 Billion in assets and asking the poor for their food money. Instead of telling poor to have faith the"church" needs to have faith $200 BILLION IS ENOUGH!
Damn John you heard about this when you were 30!! I’m the same age as you and just learned about it 2 yrs ago when i was 53. 😭 Oh to have known when my kids where small. I feel like I did so much harm to them raising them in the church. Being on the East Coast it is harder growing up Mormon especially when your spirit doesn’t align with its teachings. I literally almost lost my oldest 2 . One Sunday my oldest OD’d in the shower. Thank god my husband and i had just come home from church. We heard him going crazy & then just silence. As I frantically called 911 my husband broke it, drug him out and did CPR until the paramedics arrived & gave him Narcan. He has been clean now for 3 yrs. When i found out about the church he was the first person I called and apologized to. He now has an amazing job at Northrup Grumman and is in a space where he is actually open to therapy. Thank you for this podcast and the eyes you and others are opening. It was one of your podcasts that i stumbled upon & heard about the BOA where my testimony instantly crumbled.
Hey I’m in recovery now, therapy and fitness was a life changer. I lucked out and struck gold with my initial therapist, but it might take your son a few therapist changes to find the right one. It sounds cliche, but him being a young man, finding a calm but physically domineering therapist makes a difference, it helps to have a male dominant figure as a therapist. Also, explain to your son that extended periods of cardio, like jogging or sprinting, can simulate the effect of opiates, stressing the body for long time periods will release the bodies natural pain killers. Once he starts it will become a new addiction. Good luck with everything
Ah, we’ve arrived to the topic that broke my shelf.
Mine too!!!
1:18:38 Nemo. Your story about trying to figure out these things in the temple made me laugh so good. It also makes me sad about how much we genuinely believed and invested into these things.
Same. The very few times I went to the temple over a 20 yr span, all I could think about was trying not to laugh out loud at the temple video and rituals. I never thought about taking notes. It was so ridiculous, all I could do was focus on gulping down the giggles.
So I really appreciate people who paid closer attention than I did. Mormonism (and being a domestic goddess) never allowed me time for even a little academia.
Now I get to eat all this up.
Same! I was trying to figure it out too!
Yes!! Informed Consent right here!
By far my FAVORITE series of ANY Mormon/exMormon hosts!
Mike THANK YOU for all the research and common sense approach to the history/truth claims of this religion. It’s interesting , enlightening, frustrating and even infuriating. You two are doing VERY important work!
I thought I pretty well understood the issues with the Book of Abraham translation, but there was a lot here that I really hadn't considered or didn't know. Also, I attended the Ramses and the Gold of the Pharaohs exhibit at DeYoung Museum here in San Francisco last month, and seeing through the new lens of an understanding of Egyptology really points out to me how utterly disrespectful Joseph Smith's "translation" was to the ancient Egyptian culture, and to the deceased whose funeral texts he rewrote for his own purposes. Thank you, Mike, John, and Nemo for the crazy hard work you went through putting all this together!
He did not dishonor dead Egyptians. They were already dead, and not just that, dead in a phoney pagan religion of made up gods and goddesses. That NEEDS to be dishonored. No, what Joseph Smith did was to dishonor the TRUTH by cooking up the book of Abraham and then leading very many people astray with it so that they too become like the dead Egyptians. If an alien got ahold of the Mormon Book of Abraham, and claimed it said something else entirely, they are not dishonoring the book (which has no honor), but are dishonoring the truth.
Paul Gregersen debunked the arrogant Egyptologists.
@@richardholmes5676 There are Mormon Egyptologists who admit that the Book of Abraham is not at all what the correct translation of the scroll says.
@@paulbriggs3072 Come back when you have a clue.
This series is truly exemplary, thanks guys 👏🏾
Every time I see his face, I am reminded of his intelligence, dedication to the truth and his smiling face and disposition. God Bless R.I.P
I grew up in Rexburg and my dad taught at BYU Idaho. I had my faith crisis at a younger age but listening to these stories really reminds me of how many things I saw that from an outside perspective that are just unhealthy/bizarre! Love these discussion videos as well and cant wait to learn more!
Lol Holland's excuse given on BBC is ridiculous
about What? sorry, i dont underanstand english well and listening is very hardy for me, what he answer and what was the question?
@@marcantoine2118 Holland told BBC that he didn't know how, or by what means Joseph used the funerary text to 'translate' it into the book of Abraham... But that God used it to help Joseph and that it was still true....... It's a ridiculous answer. Hopefully that makes sense
@@marcantoine2118 ua-cam.com/video/goRh2amv60A/v-deo.html here's the link you can watch it
hahahah i love how bad Hollands explanation was, but it’s all he’s got though
@@chloemcclane3642 thank you for the answer chloe
Book of Abraham, aka, a "successful" version of the Kinderhook Plates
😂😂
Just like is Kirtland Bank scam just like it always other crap that he came up with when he did Nauvoo. And of course back to the big scam of them all that he went against him sell his own Bom scam fraud the corrupted out of his ass.
The other thing that points out that Joseph wasn’t a prophet was that he didn’t know or tell us that in the future this would be proven incorrect! 🤣🤪
Right? Literally just a few years later the whole sham was exposed when egyptologists in the US could finally read the papyrus.
Lol. Come on now how could he do that? The church would have ended then.
So excited to watch this. Love these. :)
Awesome panel and excellent talking points.
I seriously appreciate how much you guys try to be so transparent. Also you include things like what was the purpose of the Rosetta Stone. Thank you!!
I can't say enough about how valuable this series is. I believe it will be right up there with CES letter in terms of helping questioning lds members to figure out truth, despite the church's attempts to hide it.
The church hides nothing. You are a liar.
The Rosetta Stone was created so people who could read any one of the languages would understand the agreement. So the Greeks could refer to the same stone as Egyptians. I believe the cursive Egyptian was understood by many of the people in trade.
Great episode!
Mike recently I tried to find info on ces letter but I remembered your website and I went there and found a ton more info. Thanks for the work you do!
only 30 mins but cant wait to listen to the whole series, great stuff
Your interview series with Dr Ritner a couple years ago on this was absolutely brilliant! I love how this episode puts it in LDS historical perspective, but Ritner's analysis from a scholarly perspective is priceless. Much thanks to you and you team!!
John, I finally found time to watch this... as a non-Mormon I have been interested in this topic in particular because of the ability to use the original "text". Joseph Smith basically inventing the story brings into context of all of his writings as suspicious at best.
1:08:51
Growing up in Sunday school, seminary, the mish, and BYU religion classes always taught that Egyptian religion was the counterfeit priesthood and that the evil priests were trying to sacrifice Abraham because he was righteous and held the true priesthood. So, the repeating trope in the Mormon mythological cycle is the persecution complex that we have. Satan trying to destroy God’s covenant people etc. It also could point to some of the racist ideas of JS’ time the Egyptians being the children of Ham cursed with dark skin, counterfeit priesthood, blood thirsty and performing human sacrifice to heathen evil gods
That's such an important point. From JS being chased and persecuted to Abraham being almost sacrificed, we were all taught that "evil" people wanted to kill prophets because... evil...or something. Like, evil people want to kill prophets and holy people and church members because evil people know good people have power and evil people hate god or something. It makes no sense. Human nature is such that, if god's power was real and evident to someone, they would immediately align themselves with it, not try to fight against it.
Moses and the Israelites even after all God did they continued to deny him and disbelieve him complain find faults and worship other gods, still happens today, Egyptians were not Gods chosen people they invented their own gods the God of the Moses and of the bible killed all their first borns to free his people so i guess in Gods eyes the Egyptians were the baddies.
It's been flipped. God laid a trap by turning up mummies and scrolls he had no clue about. JS is the counterfeit
Yes, your comment, the demonically inspired lies of Joseph Smith that filled the minds and hearts of the lds church for generations. So very sad. Now we see they are talking of some new book Joseph Smith's of Joseph of Egypt. Absolute lies. 😣💔
@@KidFreshieThe reverse is happening, however. You speak the truth to power in Mormonism , and you get percecueted.
I was not a lazy learner or lax disciple who lacked faith. I did not leave in order to sin , or because l was weak and desired the world.
I studied hard.
I saw through the lies the leaders who do lie have all told.
I was blessed to find the Biblical Christ. All Glory to God!!
There you have it.
To anyone who is wondering about the truth claims, Do Your Research! It is well worth the discomfort. 🙏❤️🔥✝️🕊️
I've always wondered why translations and new scripture like D&C ended when Smith died. No other prophet ever did this
Interesting thought.
I love these LDS Discussions with Mike. I love John as well don’t get me wrong I just wish John would just let My ke do his thing without John having to recap everything Mike Mike already said.
I guess I struggle with understanding how someone could still identify as Mormon after learning this kind of stuff. I'm not Mormon and never have been so I guess that's a part of the discussion that is foreign to me. I'm genuinely interested in understanding.
Believe me, they do a good job on telling you to not to listen to anything of this. It sucks. I feel cheated considering many people tried to tell the truth to me but I didn’t listen to them.
You are taught not to listen to anything that can be considered anti-mormon. So most mormons know none of this stuff. Seeing these topics and then recognizing their source is a big no in terms of viewing by mormons.
The take away from this episode is that as much as JS may have tried he had no clue. All imagination no inspiration. Honestly you are nuts if you listened to this entire episode and you still believe.
I love the UA-cam Mormon apologist from byu that gave a presentation on this subject. He just agreed with it whole heartily that what Joseph's myth was translating was the truth... without explaining why of course. Just because he said so was good enough. 🙄
What was this truth tellers name?
In Planet of the Apes, at the end the ape archaeologists make something up and claim a human artifact was something different, and the human was like- no… Reminds me of Joseph as the ape archaeologist just coming up with something that sounded cool.
Good old Zelph also comes to mind.
Yes 😄
It's frustrating seeing people from the church use defensive naivety to prevent themselves from following logical implications to the obvious conclusion.
"I don't know why he went out of the room every time a question was asked during the quiz....All I need to know is that he always got the answers right when he came back."
The Rosetta stone was a proclamation for a multilingual population.
I asked a pair of missionaries that came by house if they believe that the book of Abraham/ pearl of great price was a true translation. One flat out said no. The other said he believe it was divinely inspired. Lol
Also this is the only time in my life I’ve heard facsimile so many tines
Wow, that is shocking. Possibly a pair of missionaries who will leave upon returning home.
@@AprilFriday-de6vm I’d give it a few years. They looked so young and impressionable. I bet they leave later on in life. It was hilarious that right away the first kid, who played basketball at Utah state, said no. And the other one fazed up at an angle and contemplated how to respond. The. Just said he believes it to be divinely inspired. I didn’t believe him.
Of course it’s all fake. Everyone on earth should know this, and will know this hopefully soon. Shows how susceptible humans are to believe something so ridiculous especially when taught by your parents. And when so many perpetuate it’s very easy to justify beliefs. Religious people love circles and feelings.
Hang on, take a breath and pause your unfair judgement from on high for a moment. The Bible is absolutely packed with equally ridiculous claims, and a whole lot of people alive today believe every word of it. Don’t be so hard on good people who believe what was taught to the, by people they trusted most. There is a term for this phenomena; Religion.
Edited to fix a typo.
The JSP documents are really helpful on this topic
At 1:23:00, Nemo says that he doesn't understand why Joseph would have randomly inserted text into the hypocephalus. The basic question is: "If Joseph was translating, why would he add text to the image? Why not simply say that God had not preserved that information?" In thinking about this, my mind went back to Broadie's book in which she addresses the question of whether Joseph actually believed what he taught. If memory serves, her answer is that he did eventually. He had lived a very fortunate life and gotten out of a lot of serious, even potentially fatal, situations. I believe she argues that he came to see all that as evidence that God was, in fact, on his side. So, when he randomly inserts the texts into the hypocephalus, he doesn't have a problem with it, because he has come to see God as working through him. If he thinks the hypocephalus needs more text, then God must have given him that thought. In any case, this could be a possible answer to Nemo's question.
Isn't the Anubis head missing on the actual original and, therefore, the human head on the facsimile constitutes Joseph's best guess to complete the illustration?
Yes he drew the human head on!
The Rosetta stone was a decree by Egyptian priests praising and thanking the pharaoh who was one of the Ptolemys who were Macedonians and did not speak or read Egyptian. The Ptolemaic dynasty ruled from Alexandria which was a Greek-speaking city.
The Rosetta stone was written in hieroglyphs (which was the script and language of the gods), demotic (which was the script and language of very-late Egyptians) and Greek so the Pharaoh could read it. At the time the Rosetta stone was discovered neither hieroglyphs nor demotic was understood.
How anybody can belong to this cult, never ceases to amaze me. carry on with the good work John.
Some people are born into it and never had a chance. It takes a lot to dismantle a lifetime of low-key brainwashing and emotional manipulation. But some of us make it!
@@IamCree Yes that is true. I agree completely. I think my main point is adressed to people outside the cult, who convert and are open to the false premise upon which it was founded.
@@shackledcitizen Yes, agreed. My mom converted in college. She was really naive and raised to always listen to authority and was shielded from learning adult responsibilies. She also had childhood issues and was searching for answers and belonging. Organizations like this promise safety and confidence/happiness to vulnerable populations. In addition, the church was still aggressively lying and covering all this stuff up until the recent internet leaks forced their hand, which is why this series promoting informed consent is so awesome.
Just a random thought... Did no one think it strange that JS couldn't read Greek or Hebrew?... Like the two languages that the actual Bible is written in and the language that many of the principal characters spoke? 🤔
He did study some Hebrew with Joshua Seixas and Alexander Neibaur. One of the few words he learnt was that Elohim = Gods is plural, wherefore he switched his original belief in the Trinity with his later understanding of the Godhead and obedient Mormons becoming Gods as well.
Nah. Don't need to know those languages when you're telling a story like a child depicting a picture book using only the pictures from papyrus you bought from a door to door salesman (who just so happened to knock on your door, what a twist) into an autobiography written in Reformed Egyptian by someone whose main language was Hebrew and it neatly translates to English. Seriously why doesn't anyone call out how Joseph Smith bought these scrolls that were a dime a dozen?
Small Note: At 1:40:06 Nemo mentions that Korean, Japanese and Chinese are syllabaries. This is not correct. Korean currently uses Hangul, an alphabet. Japanese uses hiragana and katakana, also alphabets. Japanese supplements these alphabets with Kanji (汉子) or Chinese as one of its three writing systems, but does not have a syllabary of its own. Korean in the past used Hanja 汉子 which is Chinese. Chinese is the only syllabary of the three. Thanks for the content tho!
How do I bring this up with my family who are still in the church? I can’t take the fact they are believing things as true that are proven false
Unfortunately most attempts to help your family in this matter will be futile. They are set in their beliefs, aka frozen. Mormonism has an extraordinary power over the conscience to seize Mormons tightly into a state of cognitive dissonance. Unless you have family members who are at least willing to listen then all you can do is help them any way you can. Good luck.
Mormonism has a terrible habit of turning its x members into atheists. Which I hope wouldn't happen but in many cases does.
@@countryboyred I did...they said it was ridiculous....and they didn't even finish it. They can't let go and think its possible the church is a fraud
I do have a fair and honest question, did Joseph Smith translate, the Egyptian papyrus scroll by sticking his head in to his hat ?
No. The process was a bit more analytical. He copied the symbols onto the left side of a paper then just used BS to come up with their meanings on the right hand side. Any symbol that had any resemblance to a known object or concept led to some very amusing guesses from Joseph. So it was a combination of intuiting meaning and "inspiration" aka BS. For effect, he was said by some witnesses to have used the pair of glasses he secretly manufactured earlier (called Urim and Thummim) to get the meaning. Very dramatic and theatrical. I think the hat method might have been more accurate had he tried it. It certainly couldn't have been worse.
@@KidFreshie thank you and I just love your explanation. Right on the dot.
@@hbendzulla8213 My pleasure. I believe the Mormon Stories episodes with Dr Ritner go more in depth into the "translation" process and how JS made some of his guesses as to the symbol meanings. It was clear he was at least trying to make logical connections between the symbols, their context and position on the scroll, and their meaning. The first volume of The Joseph Smith Papers also goes into great detail about this period.
No, Joseph Smith translated the Egyptian papyrus by sticking his head up his ass.
@@KidFreshie you are hilarious 10/10
Nobody should ever be allowed to obtain a credited degree in history from BYU.
The JS antique roadshow skit needs to happen. Somebody please make this happen!
I am not even Mormon, and this is still chilling. People have denounced their own families for this so called church.
What do you mean?
@@Goofy-GNow...I cannot speak for the person who made the comment, but I think they mean some people have denounced their own families for that so called church?. Hope that helps you out.
I don’t understand why people think the date misalignment on the facsimiles is a smoking gun.
Did Joseph ever state that the facsimiles were made by Abraham’s own hand? His claims about the book of Abraham being made by Abraham’s own hand seem to refer more to the rolls which were destroyed in the fire. Are people assuming that the facsimiles were the source material for the text?
49:08- this argument is giving Little Mermaid talking to Scuttle and explaining what all the things she's found are called and what they are used for.... only since he's not a human, he doesn't know what he's talking about and calls a fork a dinglehopper and says its for brushing your hair. Like not even close dude..
lol here to observe only no judgement 😊
I have a question, the LDS , Mormons, . They say they use the King James Version of the Biblical right?
In my King James Version it states several times in the New Testament that no one should add or take away from the gospels of God/Jesus Christ.
Can you explain please?
That would mean everything written after that verse would be false right?
@@coryhiatt9152 😂😂😂
Does it add or take away from anything?
The Rosetta Stone is a letter to a minor noble at least as far as I know I believe that is the origin of the Rosetta Stone by the time it was produced they would’ve already been dealing with the Greeks possibly
Some Latin involvement with that up to historical interpretation
It takes nearly 2 hours to show all the ways Brother Joseph got things wrong.😄
Actually we’re 31 episodes deep. That’s well over 70 hours. And we have at least 20 more episodes to go.
@@mormonstories Point well taken- but I was referring to just this episode on the BOA. Thank you for the time you have taken to present this series- it has been very informative. I hope one will be done on the Council of 50.
Abraham on the table almost sacrificed. No Genesis reference for that, but it does talk about Abram fearing for his life in Egypt ( ch 12 v10-20) and telling his wife Sarai to pretend to be his sister, so that Pharaoh would be nice to him rather than kill him to take Sarai. (He tries the same trick later in ch 20 with a different local king) I like Nemo's theory of the archetypes, and maybe Smith built on the idea of Abram's fear of Pharaoh.
Sarah was abrahams half sister, Abraham did not lie, he was telling the truth, he had no reason to spill all the details....
@@leecooper3852 it seems like relevant information if that person is then going to keep your half-sister/wife in his harem and sleep with her.
@@jlcl96 o think you misunderstand, Abram would have been killed if the thought he was her husband, he was protecting himself and Sarah, by saying she was his sister...they would have married her 1st, not slept with her like today...they had higher standards in this regard, so Abraham bought some time.
cool topic (i’m ex-mo)
And yet, it’s still in the scriptures. Ugh! I’m continually frustrated by how blatantly and egregiously the LDS church lies to it’s own members. Gross!
I believing the lord of the Ibrahim he is friend of lord this is really amazing lord will bring the truth amen
At the time the Rosetta Stone was made, Egypt was ruled by the Ptolemies who were descended from one of Alexander the Great's generals. Greek was thus the language of the ruling class. Demotic refers to the script and not a language. This was the form of writing used by the native Egyptian population. The Hieroglyphics were probably included for propagandistic reasons.
Imagine defending the book of Abraham and believing it.
We don't take stuff we preserve it...
💖
Also, Abraham (?ibraahiim) is important in Islam--the third "Abrahamic" religion.
Does the church even still use the P of GP?
100%
Yeah it's still in there. As a child, I remember looking at the cool Egyptian pictures in the back of the Bible while bored during sacrament meeting.
Mixed Faith Marriage? Isn't that against the book of Mormon?
“Hieroglyphics let me be specific…”
If u know, u know
You don’t know whether Gustav Seyffarth even read the same rolls that Joseph claimed was the part that contained the Book of Abraham? That seems like the most key detail, and you brushed over it. Otherwise that makes Seyffarth less interesting than Egyptologists today. Joseph clearly purchased more stuff from Michael Chandler than just the Book of Abraham. What did Seyffarth say about the mummies? Did those not contain the Book of Abraham either?
Mike i think there is a Correction. It’s the Book of Abraham not Book of Mormon
When did he say that?
So, this is just showing that JS couldn't actually translate Egyptian and that he was MUCH better at translating REFORMED Egyptian. 😉 😂 😢
So as a non-Mormon, I've wondered:
1. Where does the word "Mormon" come from?
2. How come non-Mormons can sing/perform with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, yet non-Mormon family members can't attend a Mormon wedding inside the temple building?
According to Mormon belief: "Mormon" was the name of a character in the Book of Mormon. He was one of the last of his people and he compiled the Book of Mormon from writings of prophets who had lived in pre-Columbian America.
Only faithful Mormons (or Latter-Day Saints as they prefer) deemed worthy are permitted to enter into their temples. But outside of the temple Latter-Day Saints are free to mingle or sing with anyone they wish. The Mormon Tabernacle choir sings in a building adjacent to the Salt Lake City temple, but not in the temple itself. If they actually sang in the temple, then outsiders would not permitted to sing with them.
Mistaking a god for a slave... you can't get it more wrong if you tried. 🤣
I new that Joseph got the genders wrong on facsimile 3 over twenty years ago when studying these in seminary. Shelf item for sure!
My frustration is that you mevwr bring in the idea js was framed for polygamy. May of the affidavits cannot be true and are proven by the dates the state for events. Emily partridge claimed to me re married to js in front of Emma on a specific date by a specific judge and both the judge and Emma WERE NOT in town that day. You talk about not allowing leeway for the evidence, yet ypu continually ignore a great number of things in regards to polygamy. For me the evidence is so convoluted, i can't know for sure
I am confused. Is this channel anti or neutral LDS ? Some things I hear sound apologist rather than anti LDS. Are you just trying to show all sides?
i think they try and see all sides but they're definitely anti
This channel is pro-truth. That's it. Not anti anything except lies.
I like the way you put that. ✊🏼
To objective observers and outsiders, this channel may seem apologetic because they mostly refrain from mocking and castigating the church for its lies. But active believing mormons will see this channel as very anti because they have been taught to take any objective criticism as a full on attack.
@@williamcharles2117 The church has come out as very anti-truth. Imagine a religion that lists truth and truthtellers among its enemies.
Wow! All I can say is ... Korihor 🤦🏽♀️🤷🏽♀️
Korihor was right. Test your assumptions, don't believe a cult leader just because he says "thus sayeth The Lord"
That's all just based on the story, because there was no historical Korihor.
Why didn’t Joseph just say, “The Lord doesn’t want these translated at this time?” Honesty, right? Ugh
Have you looked at the interpretations of facsimile 2? That’s literally what half of Joseph’s interpretations say.
John took up too much space in this episode. Let Mike present in his own style 🙏🏾
I question if JS was a con man, knowing he was getting away with duping people or if he started to believe he was a prophet. Starting with unseen golden plates to concrete evidence, BOA, that proves to his followers, and to himself, that he was a prophet.
Ou missed it. Sad seal.
Why the hat
It’s fake! Make a UA-cam short!
Anitmormon channel
No. Truth channel. Wake up. No serious minded objective reasonable person could give credence to any mormon so-called scripture.
Book of Abraham wasn't on a papyrus scroll right?
It was an alternative form to relay information
Aaaaaaand
Well it certainly would throw some haters off course trying to spend time trying to figure out the "hyroglyphics"
Bottom line you guys know there was no scroll of Abraham don't you?
Didn't Church admit this?
Is it just me, but does anyone else think this is WAY to much time and energy spent on a white country boy in the 1800s? I am a never Mormon. Obviously. So, I guess I just do not understand even mustering up the energy to form an apologetic. I know this is easy for me because I did not grow up in this culture. But, I just cannot compute.
I see Smith’s claims are so ethnocentric, narrow and COMPLETELY outside of the Bible’s Old and New Testament. I JUST CANNOT wrap my mind around why anyone entertains the cult of Mormonism
For us it was our WHOLE life that we believed whole heartedly .
Grew up in it , participated in every aspect. Spent 2yewrs of my life teaching people about it 24/7 saying I know it is true etc. untangling all that is a lot. Many of us are spending every moment we can learning about what we didn’t know
I get what you're saying. But, as an insider, I can tell you that, if one is to free themselves and their loved ones from the church, the evil web needs to be dismantled very carefully one strand at a time. And, even then, only a few will have the ability and guts to leave because you can't reason someone out of something they never reasoned themselves into in the first place. What else can be done, though?
Consider too that if you grew up in this you 100% believed JS was a true prophet meaning the church is the restored church Christ established during his ministry and therefore temples and priesthood ordinances are the key to your eternal future. Like future and eternal happiness is completely dependent on the church and it’s teachings. As a kid I thought it was amazing and brought me joy having and knowing something so special I wanted everyone to know what I knew. Contrast that with the person who started it all is a fraud. His claims are demonstrably false. So, everything we believed in, to the core of who we are and our eternal value and future is not what we were lead to believe. It’s really hard to wrap your head around it. As an outsider, your core self identify isn’t defined by JS’s teachings. It’s just hard to realize and accept it’s all made up.
This content is intent for members who were deeply damaged by the Church's refusal to provide informed consent; meaning, that people make life defining decisions based on false information.
I can't wrap my mind around being so interested in a religion they never had anything to do with.
Denver Snuffer's "Religion of the Fathers" is the best response to critics available. If you're serious about this topic you can look up the UA-cam video.
Sorry, I can't see any defence to the textual evidence in this video and the longer series on the channel. If you want to accept the BoA JS wrote as your scripture that is your choice, but it cannot be a translation of the materials as JS and church claimed.
@@helenr4300 did you watch his video? All I'm saying is if a person is serious about this "issue" then all of the arguments needs to be weighed in the matter.
@@SaundersClark have you watched the extensive series o. This channel on the subject? Did you note that this is only the first episode on this topic and the next looks at the apologetics views?
@@countryboyred What did you think of the video I suggested?
Talk about fake news...lol
30:26 and this is what ultimately made me lose faith not just in Catholicism but also Christianity in general in part because so much of Jesus is tied to those figures (Paul explicitly links him with Adam in a couple of places) and Moses is supposed to have appeared alongside Elijah when Jesus was transfigured. Maybe this is one of the main reasons why so many Christians and Mormons are hostile towards mainstream science as I found out with the people in my previous community.
It was listening to Mormon apologists defending the historicity of the Book of Mormon is some of your other episodes that convinced new that at worst apologetics is basically the art of defending the indefensible, I imagine it’s even worse with this document now that people know what Egyptian funerary texts are.
The holy spirit never misleads a surrendered heart ❤
But deceiving spirits sure as hell do.
@@KidVolcano You are protected and guarded by the most powerful spirit that there is.....The Holy Spirit. God bless you.
@@orl477
I am. You should be too. Maybe pray about that.
@@KidVolcano yes Amén, thank you please pray for me. " Guidance "
@@orl477
That will be $500
Honestly I don’t understand why are people surprised? Is it not a spiritual war? If people like Joseph smith and Muhammad didn’t exist this spiritual war wouldn’t be a spiritual war at least to our knowledge.
Do people actually think Satan is in a cave sitting and waiting for God’s judgement to fall upon him?
Doesn’t the scriptures say in
Revelation 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! For the devil has come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
We act all surprised all confused, dig deep into nonsense talk about it as stuff that’s puzzling and yet we have clearly been warned about it in the scriptures, what’s the point of having eyes if we can’t even understand what we read.
I would be expecting 1000 Joseph smith all over the planet, Satan is here so are his allies, those he brought down during his fall as well as well as all the spirits who roam the earth that God destroyed in the great flood in the days of Noah, the children or offsprings of the fallen angels and the daughters of man, the nephilims who God cursed to roam the earth as EVils spirits yeah also known as Demons.
So what’s the big deal with Joseph smith, there must be many more, there’s no forgiveness for Satan for him and his allies it’s eternal damnation, do actually think there will be peace on earth with Satan here?
Come people wake up already.
Had nobody expected Satan to try and destroy or discredit scriptures? Why is to surprising that someone would create junk and claim it’s more important than the bible?
Or even worse God making himself look small by destroying the Egyptian with his strong hand, taking his people out of Egypt, the after sending our Christ to die for our sins and atone for our sins proceed to create a whole different story in a book using the very same nation who worshipped demons aka Egyptians and write a book in ancient Egyptians ?
No offence God can do anything he wants, but insulting his own name, absolutely not.
There’s a good reason all Egyptians king tombs are opened today, it’s punishment straight from heaven, I be these kings who bought their gods lies wouldn’t believe that in the years to come their graves would be opened and vandalised literally… they spent an entire life building these tombs all for nothing and God had the last laugh..
Today all these tombs are tourists attractions, if only they new Satan was spiting on their sweat and laughing hard as they built incredible unimaginable gigantic pyramid all for nothing…..
The enemy comes to
Kill
Steal and destroy.
What a load of nonsense you are talking. You insult the beliefs of an entire civilisation with your satan crap.
I went in with an open mind but my mind and heart says yall need prayer
The Book of Abraham is true as is the Book of Mormon. The gospel of Jesus Christ is restored. All folks here who have criticized the church in the wrong fashion are wrong and are hypocrites. None of you have the truth. None.
what makes them hypocrites?
Joseph Smith, no more creditable than P T Barnum. No historical basis, no archeological basis, no cultural basis, no intellectual basis for any of the so called scriptures. A real poverty of evidence for a pseudo church. I thought UFO cults were weird but LDS takes first prize here. It’s all about money, power, hierarchy, patriarchy and misogyny.
You guys need someone who's studied history a bit when you do these... even after looking up Rosetta stone on Wikipedia, you misunderstand 😂 You seem confused that Greek and Egyptians might have interacted...? Not trying to be snarky... I get your laser focus is on discrediting LDS, but your criticisms would be much more impactful with a bit more homework and not having to use WIkipedia as a source during the conversation. Just my $0.02, otherwise enjoyable.
"The Book of Abraham is Joseph Smith's Translation Accurate?"
yes.
next question.
Are you saying that the BoA is in fact an accurate translation of the Egyptian hieroglyphs?
@@Zelph_undying i'm saying that since the originals got destroyed in a fire at the smithsonian museum ( well documented ) ... to imply anything other is dishonest ... normally called ... a lie.
so ... since we do NOT have the originals ... one must assume they are accurately translated, since otherwise cannot be proven.
@@grayman7208 man, if only they included reprints of the hieroglyphs, and referenced them in the BoA... oh wait.
It would be even more awkward if the GAEL translation work referenced characters of the reprints in an identifiable sequence...
It would be even worse if the enclosed hieroglyphs had a by the-numbers "translation" that could be directly reviewed.
@@Zelph_undying
those reprints were done by memory ... or did you think they photographed them in the early 1800"s ? ...oh ...wait.
they didn't.
they don't.
gee ... awkward.
@@grayman7208 Hold on, what? You realize they created wood block carvings so that they could mass print them in a printing press right? Like wood block carvings created from the original.
Facsimile #1 is a fragment that still exists, glued to a paper with a drawing of a temple/map of Kirtland on it. You can even see the portions where the missing sections were drawn in.
Photography was invented in 1822 btw, so, I guess they could have, but that's not the case here.
It’s very strange that you talk about “translations” of the facsimiles as being “incorrect.” Joseph Smith’s interpretations of the facsimiles are mostly interpretations of pictures rather than the hieroglyphic words or phrases. Art can mean more than one thing. You wouldn’t think of any good modern art as having one “correct” interpretation.
Even if you can associate certain pictures with specific Egyptian concepts, it’s not possible for any Egyptologist to have comprehensive understanding of all the nuances of anyone’s artistic interpretation. I don’t see how you could disprove that whoever the facsimile artist was, they didn’t intend a nuanced meaning to the art that could allow for multiple interpretations. Having multiple interpretations or perspectives is generally a central purpose of good art, especially symbolic religious art. You don’t have to be that liberal to draw parallels between the traditional Egyptian interpretations compared to Joseph Smith’s interpretations.
You are tying yourself in knots to justify this nonsense, Joseph Smith’s writings are worhy of P T Barnum, nothing more.
@@Maisiewuppp I don’t care about justification. The criticisms of the facsimiles are academically lazy and ignorant. It’s exhausting to listen to pseudo-intellectuals. I can see why you might equate bare minimum critical analysis to “tying yourself in knots.” Thinking is hard for some people
You guys remind me of NPR. Not as unbiased as you think you are. I was hoping to learn something academically useful here, but all the color commentary makes your content feel like cherry-picked history instead of something comprehensive. Boring.
How accurate is it? The most important thing here is to so live that we have the guidance of the Holy Ghost. The corrrect procedure is : Faith in Jesus Christ ,repentance, baptism by the proper authority as administered by the true Church of Jesus Christ, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Then ,by keeping the commandments as explained to you in the LDS Church you will receive the guidance of the Holy Ghost, and you will not have to make these videos.
Kent, are you a member Salt Lake City based sect of Mormonism? If so, your comment shows you don't even know the name of your own church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the Strangite sect of Mormonism. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the SLC based sect of Mormonism. You are going to need to seriously up your game, before anyone here takes you seriously.
NOT EVEN YOU believe your nonsense. Ask yourself if you apply that same epistemology to literally anything else in your life.
Is anything they are saying in these videos not true? The Church claims all truth, no? So if we find out the Book of Abraham is not even remotely close to what JS claims would that not then be good information to have? Why would the Holy Ghost guide us to accept something that is proven to not be what it is claimed to be?
I mean, what is the point of what you are saying? Is it “forget about all the factual history of the core tenants of our doctrine and scripture and just rely on what we say today?” Why do that if the history is proven false? Why continue in it if it isn’t true? Why continue to believe in the church if there’s so much evidence that it is not the “true church of Jesus Christ?”
But your sequence requires knowing that the LDS church is the true church. All Christian churches will say repentance, faith in Christ, baptism etc.... And would claim the witness of the Holy Spirit in their lives and faith. But you would not accept that. And they would not consider LDS as anything but a total rewrite of Christian faith (nature of human life; that God was like us and men can become as God, the need for secret temple rituals when the NT talks of Jesus as the ultimate sacrifice and replacing temples, to name a few).
So frankly it is very important to consider the background to the scriptures you add to the Bible , to review whether the LDS church is the true church. After all they are not even the only church group that accept the BoM etc, so why would the Brighamites be the only true faith? If God wants all to know the path why 1800 years of darkness before a restoration?
That easy huh
I lost my exmo virginity with the BoA and POGP as well, at 42.
You say it perfectly "I heard the actual story for the first time in my life (in my 30s)"
I have a question, the LDS , Mormons, . They say they use the King James Version of the Biblical right?
In my King James Version it states several times in the New Testament that no one should add or take away from the gospels of God/Jesus Christ.
Can you explain please?
Barking up the wrong tree here, friend. The vast majority of us in this crowd are agnostic, atheist or non-Mormons. In other words it’s like asking us about inconsistencies in The Harry Potter series.
I agree with Steve F - however the LDS might say that they are not adding to the NT itself, and that the BoM and the various other scriptures they follow are in some way parallel. Just a thought as a never mo, but fascinated by the various 'christian' sects. The Jehovah's Witnesses don't add extra texts, but they have done their own translation of the Bible which scholars consider to be misleading and changing the texts. Now any translation has a degree of interpretation as languages don't map each other precisely, but a translation should stay within the range of what certain words can be considered to mean, or in rendering the same idea *, but scholars see the New World Translation of the JWs as deeply flawed.
*translating an idea rather than words is dynamic equivalance - imagine a US 'translation' of a UK document about weight loss - we would say someone was 12 stone 5; but the average American could not visualise that, so it might be translated 173 pounds (lb) whilst in mainland europe and Australia it may be quoted in kgs. Thus the text is not an 'accurate' translation, in word to word, but conveys a realistic interpretation of the meaning
Because they teach that they only believe that the KJB is correct as far as it is translated correctly. They believe the part you stated is not true or correct. When you grow up being taught the the BOM is the most correct book on earth but the Bible is only kind of correct. It is easy to dismiss anything in the Bible that doesn't match up with the church beliefs.
In the book of revelation in the last chapter it says not to add or take away from the word.
I understand what you are saying. My oldest brother came home for a visit and told my mom all about the LDS. She was so impressed with the teachings and fellowship that she converted from Catholic to LDS. She had me and my brother baptized also. I was excommunicated.
I love your show,it’s very interesting and informative.
“Several times” such as? There’s a bit about that in the book of revelation, where it says not to add or remove words from “this prophecy” which is clearly a reference to the book of revelation itself.
Why the hat