RC Sproul on Predestination in Romans 9
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- Опубліковано 15 січ 2025
- Dr. Leighton Flowers continues to walk through RC Sproul's exposition of Romans 9. This episode picks up at verse 17 and the chapter titled PREDESTINATION.
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1) • RC Sproul on Romans 9
2) • Romans 9: Is there Unr...
3) • RC Sproul: Sovereign G...
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Thank you Leighton for having the interest, care, and level of robust interest in taking real concerns to the commons (places where few to none are willing or know how to sojourn). Blessings brother.
I wish he would be more concise. I can't sit thru the whole thing for more than one reason. In not being able to do so, I'm sure i miss some of his points.
@@BP7BlackPearl Yes, I've noticed that today's culture needs to be broken down to a few sentences. A sound-bite generation with very short attention spans for ideas not agreed upon will be the end of us. We sit and look at glowing rectangles for 16 hours per day so we should not be surprised at our current estate.
If you can't sit thru this, go to his website which explain the initialism P. R. O V. I. S. I. O. N. I. S. M.
It takes time to explain the foundation because Calvinists have much baggage attached to words and have poisoned the well to think that the opposite of Calvinism is Arminianism when it is not... it is a version of Calvinism.
Shoutout to Robert Barclay the great Quaker Theologian
"First we may call this doctrine(Calvinism) a novelty, seeing that for the first four hundred years after christ there is no mention of it. The first foundations for it were in the writings of Augustine, who, in his warring against Pelagius, let fall some expressions which some have unhappily picked up to the establishment of this error."
During a Ligonier panel, someone asked about "free will." RC Sproul said [paraphrasing] "Sure un-regenerate man has free will. He can decide which sin he is going to do next." Then later answering a question about double predestination and saying "But the sinners earn hell .. they sin willingly. They LOVE their sin." A fox in a henhouse will kill far more than she can take and eat. Do we *punish* the fox for it's wicked ways? Or wisely gird the chicken coop? Or prudently eliminate the threat? I can't think of even a primitive culture that believes creatures acting in accordance with their nature deserve punishment. Imagine someone catching the offending fox and lighting it on fire for punishment .. the whole world would scream "That's not fair!" *Glory be to God*
31:10 you're right the context of the whole book of Romans was Jews and gentiles fighting in the church. This had nothing to do with reprobation or Calvinism
If Calvinism were true, not only would God be more akin to the Priest and the Levite in the Parable of the Good Samaritan, but He would also be the one who ordered ("decreed for") the robbers to attack the man in the first place.
If Calvinism were true then the Bible would be a lie.
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi Wow ... way to miss the point.
God Commanding Saul to go and exact judgment on Amalek is not even remotely close to what we're talking about here. You're not even in the same ballpark.
The point is, if Calvinism was true, then God, in the analogy would be like the Priest paying robbers to go and beat up and rob an innocent man, and then walking by on the other side of the road, ignoring him ... whilst Jesus tells us to instead be like the Good Samaritan who stops to help the stranger, even though they are of two different people groups who traditionally are at enmity with one another.
To apply the analogy to the real world, it would be the equivalent of God putting into the hearts and minds of men the plans and desires to carry out sinful actions, for sinful reasons ... whilst withholding any kind of genuine love, kindness, or compassion from their victims (barring the few specially elect ones); all so that He can make Himself look good when He saves a few people (at the expense of all those who are damned for doing the very things He made them do).
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi Listen, I don't know what's wrong with you, but in all sincerity, it is clear that you're not well. You've demonstrated time and time again that you are either unable or unwilling, to follow the points of a conversation and actually listen to and address the points that others are making. Since you are either unable or unwilling to do so, it renders all further conversation pointless.
At this point, I genuinely don't know what to do, other than pray for you; but I'm not going to sit here day in and day out arguing with you, when you're not even following the conversation, it is fruitless.
May God grant you eyes to see, ears to hear, and a heart to understand, and may whatever is plaguing you be broken off and discarded in the mighty name of Jesus, that you might experience the freedom, love and joy of our great Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
May the LORD bless you and keep you Michael, but for now, this is going to be the end of our dialogue, I won't be replying to your comments on this or any other thread from now on. And if you continue to post on/reply to my comments, I will, with a heavy heart, have to block you.
Peace be with you.
@@beowulf.reborn Don’t let people like Michael discourage you brother. Amen to what you said! His comments are good for people seeking God and His truth. God will redeem the hate that he spreads through his comments and people will see the lie of Calvinism through that. I don’t blame you for not wanting to talk to people like that but it’s good for believers to call them out on their false doctrines in love of course.
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi I have an entire Bible full of “biblical arguments” that prove your man made theological system false and as far as context goes you would have to first understand what context means to make such a ridiculous claim. I won’t hold my breath.
Why is R.C. Sproul so popular?
Same reason Joel Osteen is. He smiles and tells people what they want to hear.
Easy listening and easy to understand.
He reads a selected proof text. Explains the text in his own words leaving out any biblical context. The listener hears the text with a long man made explanation (eisegesis), completely gets what he's saying...
No biblical study required.
It's easy learning with little to no work required.
Wow! Lol these are some slanderous comments.
@@sovereigngrace9723
Then it should be easy to refute. Right?
Obviously RC Sproul is wrong with context. Obviously he's explaining proof texts with many statements that aren't remotely biblical which makes studying his take along side of scripture impossible.
So when it comes to Pharoah, the hardening of the Israelites, etc that Sproul is explaining, where do you find his explanation in the Word of God?
@@sovereigngrace9723 If a man has to rewrite the Bible in order to preach, hes preaching it wrong.
Instead of saying merely linear, say cerebral and heady as well. Love you brother.
Would you consider that “Calvinist teachers” r preaching a different Jesus and a different gospel. Such as RC and MacArthur and Washer and Lawson and White and Apologia Bro’s on and on Could they be false teachers? Because when it comes down to it, we must protect our brother and sisters from false teachers, we can see Calvinism is wrong but have you ever thought to call these men out that they could be false teachers if they’re preaching a different Jesus and gospel due to Calvinism beliefs and preaching?
I asked the same question in a live chat and about 4 to 5 times and he wouldn't reply and actually when to the next question. I think it's a question that should get a response from bc it just doesn't feel right for others to be called out for being false teachers and not CALVINISM but they preach and teach a different doctrine but for whatever reason that question is avoided.
@@alexfanney9662 Hope this is helpful info: Dr Flowers has said several times in many many of his broadcasts that calvinism doesn't make one a false teacher, that calvinists are not false teachers due to their calvinism. Ok cool, hope that helps :)
The reason we'd not call them out as false teachers is because, under traditional calvinism, the doctrine says humans are for reals responsible. The doctrine of "compatibilism" says God does 100% of everything but that humans are 100% responsible and able to preach, teach, evangelize, etc and thus should. So even though it very very very much seem completely contradictory to us, they have a doctrine which pretty much forces them to evangelize, disiple, have hope for the lost, etc.
That's why they'd not be classified as false teachers. Hyper calvinists who deny many if not all of those things, they are false teachers and Dr Flowers has said as much. Ok, hope this helps :)
@@alexfanney9662 Alex, you said you asked a question on Soteriology101. Leighton Flowers was a Calvinist for 10 years and usually says that Calvinists are Christians. Since, Augustinian Calvinism started in 400 a.d. and had a resurgence 1500a.d. There are lots of people who teach and believe it over the centuries.I’m not sure if I answered your question, but I hope I did. Glad you are understanding and studying the most important subject in the World! Jesus gives eternal life to those who believe with their own faith and love because he loved them first!
I would 100% consider them false teachers. Many Christians are deceived by calvinism and come out of it later like Leighton. Judgement can't be made based on those Christians who are deceived but instead judge the deceiver. They are 100% false teacher's because they are leading many astray with deceptive speech and false man-made doctrines.
If you're discernment considers them genuine teacher's of scripture than you must accept catholics, Mormons, Jehovah witnesses, 7th day Adventist, etc or you're a hypocrite because they're all nice and kind people who teach scriptural errors.
I think that non-calvinists need to be more assertive and even mock this ridiculous system. Leighton does a great job of being nice about it but at the same time totally eviscerating calvinism. Kudos sir.
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi Calvinism isn't Christianity. Also, I'm talking about driving the knife in the front not the back.
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi Do you believe God chose Esau for damnation before he did anything good or bad?
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi That's all fine. I asked do you believe Esau was personally damned before he was born by God. God chose Jacob and not Esau to a specific service not to salvation or damnation.
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi Jacob and Esau in Romans 9 are representing entire people groups .
@@michaelmichael-ci8hi Christendom? Hardly. More like wolves in sheeps clothing. U aren't really going to try and defend calvinism r u?
The reason Sproul's predestination is so difficult to explain is because it's wrong and convoluted. If he had actually understood the Bible, he wouldn't have dreaded a particular question every.single.time he was on a radio show.
What question was that? I tend to notice these people often hold to multiple false doctrines at once - Sproul held to paedo baptism, covenant theology, the church replacing Israel (I believe he did but not positive) and of course Calvinism.
1:33:01 I'm something of the oddball who bucks the trend there. My parents were students of Dr. Jack Cottrell at Cincinnati Bible Seminary (later Cincinnati Christian University), in the early 1990s. His name came up fairly often in family conversations at the time, so I knew about him from a fairly early age. I had never heard of R.C. Sproul until about a year ago. By the way, you're pronouncing Dr. Cottrell's name wrong. The o is pronounced as a short o, not a short a, and the stress is on the first syllable, not the second. Thus, the proper pronunciation of his name is "CAUGHT-roll", not "ca-TRELL". Just FYI!
I am not a Calvinist, but I’m getting confused by the comments about “before they do anything wrong.” Aren’t all people under the curse of Adam and born enemies of God? If so, then there is sin present in all of us before we’re born, right?
😲"ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...."
You always reference Pharoah, but I have always been troubled for Judas.
There are only two people in the Bible who are called "son of perdition(destruction)". Judas, and the Antichrist. Therefore, Judas and the Antichrist were the only ones who were doomed for destruction. We can safely assume the rest of the world(who don't believe) wasn't predetermined by God for destruction.
Yeah, Judas played an important role, for what he did HAD TO HAPPEN so the plan of salvation in Christ could come into the world. In Matthew when Judas is "remoreful" and takes back the silver (which is not accepted as it is blood money,) he is so disgusted with himself he hangs himself. I've felt that way .. so remorseful I want to die. I feel a bit bad for Judas. Like he was temporarily possessed ..
@@youbetyourwrasseHe was literally temporarily possessed. Luke 22 says Satan entered into him and he left to go commune with the Pharisees to betray Jesus. I believe Judas had free will to choose, but events in his life led him to ultimately be open for Satan to possess him. God knowing this was going to happen as He knows all things doesn't mean He chose for Judas to betray Jesus - He just knew Judas would do it because He's outside of time.
@@wretchedsinnerRighteousSavior Amen my wretched friend.
1:02:34 thats jus projecting. Accusing of the very thing they are guilty of.
I’d highly suggest you search for the video titled “James white Romans 9 exegesis”. He explains exactly why it’s about individual salvation.
“The Justification of God” by John Piper is a GREAT academic book explaining why it’s NOT about nations and it is about individual salvation.
That's the problem. Instead of the plain reading of the Bible in context and understanding what the Bible says, Calvinists rely on wordy explanations as to why the Bible doesn't mean what the Bible actually says. That's because the Bible isn't the Calvinist's authority: instead, Calvinism is the Calvinist's authority. Do we really need Pipers book and White's video to gaslight people into believing what the Bible doesn't say? Doesn't the Bible explicitly warn against vain babblers like White and Piper, Sproul and McArthur, and many other Calvinists false teachers?
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Colossians 2:8
O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: which some professing have erred concerning the faith......"
1 Timothy 6:20-21
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2 Timothy 4:2-4
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2 Peter 2:1-2
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
Romans 16:17
@@zebra2346 When I read the Bible I end up with a Calvinistic understanding. I recommended the book to combat the Arminian and provisionist understanding.
It’s not loving to assume. You should try asking more questions to see where others are coming from.
@@ShepherdMinistryI was a hard core Calvinist for over 20 years, so i understand Calvinism just fine, and now I can "see" the gross errors in Calvinism. Is it possible that you don't understand the Bible as well as you think? That you are blinded by false teachings as I was?
@@ShepherdMinistryFriend, Calvinists are ideologically possessed just like members of a cult would be. So it is very difficult to investigate whether a long cherished belief system like Calvinism is a false teaching, and even more difficult to admit we've been wrong for so many years. I really struggled coming out of Calvinism, because it was the only way that i ever understood the Bible. The Provisionist view is a much more biblical and coherent interpretation of the Scriptures, and holds a view of God, Christ, and salvation that is not distorted by the doctrines of man. Please take heed to read the Bible in context and actually believe what the Bible says, instead of letting White, Sproul, Piper, McArthur and any other, "giants of the faith", telling you what the Bible means, when the Bible says something that doesn't comport with Calvinism.
@@zebra2346 I’m not talking about Calvinism. You are assuming I get my understanding of the text from other men and not when I read the Bible. That is not loving to assume negatively of someone. Ask more questions to understand my why before you assume.
I think I saw an "impotent center" in the game last night. lol
my brother i love you and i agree with everything you but talking about R C Sprouls the way you are is just wrong
You waste a lot of time worrying about what people might say or are saying in your live chat. For those of us watching down the road we just want to hear your argument and facts, which I do appreciate. 😊