Parking Charge Notice - INVALID Contract?
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
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My experience with Parking Eye a few years ago, I got a PCN that specifically said that by entering the car park I was deemed to have accepted the terms and conditions of entry, so I wrote back and said that by sending me letters about the subject, I would consider them to have accepted my terms and conditions too, and moving forward would charge them £50 for dealing with every one of their letters (the first one was free as they were not made aware of my terms until I responded), I also specifically said that if they refused to accept these terms and conditions and continued to proceed, then I would defend any action they took against me using the exact same stance.
About three weeks later I got two letters in the post, the first one was from their legal department saying that they refused to accept my terms and conditions as they were not going to enter into a implied contract as they were illegal, and as this had not been tested in court they would ignore any demands for payment that I sent, the second one, was another letter from another person in the same department, cancelling the PCN.
This was many years ago, but it seems they didn’t want the “you entered a car park so we implied from that you accepted our terms and conditions but we refuse to accept your terms and conditions by entering into unsolicited correspondence with you” stance in court.
Brilliant.
Congratulations on getting them off your back, although I think the real message they got from you was that you weren't worth the trouble.
Spot on👍
@@D-Bunker-zv1bjyou miss the point completely.
Was it worth the bother ?
Every contract I've ever entered into has involved a ton of paperwork, reading a load of terms and conditions and signing on the dotted line to confirm that I've read, understood and agreed to it.
I find it absolutely baffling that a parking management company can apparently claim that a photo of a car parked in a car park can be used as sufficient proof that a contract has been willingly entered into with the driver of said vehicle.
The whole industry needs urgent regulation. The introduction of the Protection of Freedoms Act plus the high court case of ParkingEye vs Beavis has really caused them to dial up the crazy on their litigation. I'm dealing with one such case myself right now.
The sad fact is that most people when presented with these charges simply pay up to avoid the hassle. If more people took the time to research it and fight these parasites, the industry wouldn't be in the state that it's in today.
Sorry Chris, but that's not true. In law, every time you have bought a newspaper or a cup of coffee, you have entered into a contract. There is no need for paperwork and signatures.
As mentioned by others, a contract can be implied (implicit) by your actions in an off premises agreement for example, so no paperwork required. This can naturally lead to disputes. The explicit contract is where all parties sign the paperwork after agreeing to all the verbal or written terms in the contract thus attempting to remove any implicit terms that could create dispute, so, both contract types exist, or at least that is my understanding of it..
Oh dear...!
That's put the cat amongst the pigeons....
Every single UK parking company now needs to replace every single parking notice.....🤣😂🤣😂😂🤣
Don't worry, costs to replace those signs will be reflected in future ticket prices :(
No they don't - they will run a test case, in front of a sympathetic (to their cause), Judge and a precedent will be set - just like the Parking Eye vs Beavis judgment.
@@barrieshepherd7694 Oh..! Are you suggesting our legal system can be manipulated...? 😨
How does that work where the registered address is a lawyer's office in the Isle of Man or Jersey? My business refused to grant a lease to a firm which was a £1 company registered in Dublin (when we were in the EU). I knew the personal address of the Principal, but if he'd defaulted on the lease we'd've been unable to enforce. He was hopping mad, but refused point blank to take personal responsibility - proving that we were right to walk away from signing, the lease would have been worthless.
As a retired engineer one of the sayings I liked was simply "Read the instructions". Watching this is seems to apply to legal issues too.
Has anyone ever written to DVLA to notify them that they do not grant permission for their personal details to be shared with anyone other than the Police? (In the same way that we are able to prevent sharing of our private medical records by NHS?).
Going to to give it a try 😂😂😂 are the dv's profiteering from selling registered drivers details to these parasites 😂😂
A PCN story from Bristol, a driver who won his cases against CAZ pcn's was so confident he could win he also won two strangers cases.. A driver who successfully overturned four Clean Air Zone fines claims he did so arguing technicalities in the legislation and regulations of the zones. And he claimed that means Bristol City Council may well have to pay back every single CAZ fine they’ve ever issued.
The man, who has declined to be named publicly at this stage, first took Bristol City Council to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal when he received two penalty charge notices for driving into Bristol’s Clean Air Zone earlier this year.
I have beaten Bristol City Council over a CAZ PCN too. My 2009 diesel smog machine (it's not really that bad, honest) has Disabled taxation class and is exempt from CAZ payments nationally. I really enjoyed pointing that out to them, especially as their own web site showed the car as being exempt :)
A prominent company issued me with a parking charge in 2019,I went to court because the notices were put up at a date after I had parked. The company ,despite the Hotel asking them to drop the charge had judgement in court (£200)The reason, they took digital pics of the signs with a date adjustment. Despite the signs being well over the size allowed by law without planning permission and evidence submitted from council records that these were illegal signs and therefore made an illegal contract, the judge ruled that he accepted this to be the case but it had not been proved in Law and on balance of probability 51/49 gave judgement to the parking company.
To be honest, that should have been appealed as the claim the parasites made was void. In law, fraud vitiates everything. It does make you wonder if the judge was compromised in some way, doesn't it?
Had a parking ticket cancelled after appeal as the machine would not take one of the letters of my reg number despite cancelling it 3 times and trying again. I kept the receipt with time I paid and scanned it to them that I had paid but it was a faulty machine that was the problem. Got a letter saying that they accepted I had paid and ticket was cancelled. This was in Ingoldmills, Skegness.
I was once told on a training course about distance selling, and that stands at shows and events where the trading is 'off premises' means distance selling applies, so this is very interesting and an extension of that perhaps.
When it comes to hospitals, what sickens me is the fact that taxpayers paid for hospitals & their car parks which means they should be free.
If they wanted to charge to park there, all proceeds should go to the hospital.
Don't pay them then. My local hospital doesn't care unless you park in a disabled bay.
@@PORRRIDGE_GUN I haven't 👌
Surely under gdrp the DVLA shouldn't be given personal details to private parking company's anyway
The government see's motorists as a cash cow. So is more than happy to have a legal route through which car drivers can be harassed by business's trying to collect money.
BBB has done a few videos on that and one specifically in relation to his current issue.
Interesting
Check your PCN for “time vehicle first seen” & “time of notice” if this time is not more than 10 minutes you can claim that you did not enter into a contract with them. The governing body gives you ten minutes to read the signage and fees and decide whether you want to park under those conditions or not.
@@gbhxu yes I know that but he is going to use more lines of defence. They make a big mistake by issuing the ticket at the same time as they see the car. This is against the regulations.
This isn't true
@@BrayzenBull I won my case because they broke the rules that they signed up to. Trust me you can drive in, read the signage and decide whether you think the Price and terms and conditions is ok and either stay or leave without entering into a contract. Maximum 10 minutes. The over zealous parking attendant usually slaps a notice on the second he sees the car which is against the rules.
Thought it was 15min grace period
@@chipsnpeasifuplz no it’s 10
Not related to parking...BUT... from what you say about 'geographical addresses,' how is it that so many shell companies are allowed to use what amounts to a po box or drop address where they have no physical presence or staff?
has to be an address for service.
Shell companies don't offer consumer contracts, so the only address they are legally required to have is a registered office at Companies House. That address does not have to be the main place of business.
Ask 'The City Of London' corporation if you want to go down that rabbit hole as not even a barrister could give you that answer..
Daniel I believe in your first analogy about the owner not having a mapped address. Not a post office box.
I just ignored mine (and all their threatening letters).
I'm going back to Canada, so really don't care about my credit rating in Britain.
Be careful on that one, and do your research. The U.K. has reciprocal relations with some countries such as NZ which allows them to use the legal system of your home country to enforce fines or fees.
To add to other comments - a friend left Australia ignoring a Speeding Ticket that he picked up in his car a week before he sold it to leave. Two years later he went back to Australia to be told at Immigration he owed New South Wales Government $300 odd and he would need to pay that before being allowed entry.
@@barrieshepherd7694 they want their money and will get it. Mind you I think there is a moratorium of about seven years.
@charlesbeltington-smythe9229 Experian are a worldwide organisation used by North American companies and institutions for credit ratings, etc, etc, you're still reachable even in Canada.
So if the signage is not clear, and then there can be no contract.
So if signage was defaced or removed, as in the London ULEZ Bladerunner camera scenario, then no contract could be established?
Seems an easy fix, not that I'm suggesting such action. 😅
Regrettably I suspect that ULEZ is not a contract situation - it's, as far as I can tell, supported and enforced by Law/Bylaw. Different to private parking and contracts.
Yep, I'm liking that. In my own experience I challenged the parking outfit on the basis that the space that I was in was considerably narrower than the average car parking space i.e. 2.0m wide rather than the general design width of approx 2.5m wide. I've designed enough car park layouts in my life to know what criteria to use.
In a 'contract' it is reasonable to expect the provider of the service to ensure that his 'provision' is serviceable, in my view, and in my instance, the provider was in breach of his contact by knowingly offering a space that was not practicably usable and therefore the driver could not realistically park within the white lines of the parking space.
It's great when someone is prepared to argue their case against the shysters that these outfits are.
I didn't know about the geographical address thing though. Nice!
So you couldn't park in the space and they tried to charge you anyway? 🤔
@@MrGundawindythe same thing happened a few years ago with a council public car park built in the the '70s with smaller spaces. Their traffic warden came along and booked every car that had part of it outside the white lines-- mostly the front as the spaces were too short. There was an uproar in the local press about it as many of todays cars won't fit. It's since been demolished with new property development.
I now rather wish that I had become a lawyer. It is utterly fascinating to see the depth of debate over the semantics of just a few simple words.
Adding the 3 letter word not to guilty is a wonderous thing.
His channel is becoming rather jingoistic these days.
He messed up, and is now flexing
@@stuartburns8657 Agreed, 12 mins of needless repetitious waffle in typical legal fashion.
Its a very clever and efficient system for a reason that goes back centuries..
@@rmbandy835 - 'waffle' that may just get you out of your 'parking ticket' position rather than your ineffective emotional stance above any intellect. Based on your logic, anyone that has more knowledge about a subject than you is 'jingoistic' lol
I’m defending a recent parking ticket. Fingers crossed.
Good luck! 🍀🤞🏻
Thank you Sir, feeling confident,
Defending or contesting?
@@lillymay3632 My point is that the council will not give up chasing the charge, cowboy firms don't usually bother. I once contested a council ticket as my hospital appointment had overrun, once I provided evidence they dropped the charge.
Hi how did it go?
Checked today at a car park near where I work owned by a large store who in recent years, employ a private car parking company to operate it for them. On the main sign with T&C's, their actual address is clearly shown at the bottom of it.
This is excellent content and very useful, not just for parking companies but I have an ongoing dispute with something bought online but the company have nowhere , shown their address.
There are quite a lot of online shops that dont provide a geographical address in their contact us details or anywhere on their website. Are they not following consumer regulations?
Good question. Sometimes it's even difficult to discover which country they're in.
@@katyb2793 normall i read the terms and conditions and the address is buried in there
I'd say that they are in breach
it might be under the distance purchasing law
I think I remember a case a while back where something similar was argued and the court allowed a 'hidden' address due to the fact that the offices were often subject to vandalism.
How surprising that their offices should be vandalised.
You might quote from the bible "for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
Tough!
On that basis we (the public) should be allowed to have our address hidden i.e. The DLVA should not release it because in doing so they are subjecting us to, potentially criminal, blackmail (demanding money with menaces)
I had always thought that a contract had to be fair and in one instance I didn't enter the whole reg number but paid and left after only five minutes which enabled me to change my grandchild's nappy.I invited them to take me to court as I felt the court would not see the attitude of the company as reasonable.They then factored the supposed debt and I continued to ask for the chance to put my case.After many months of argument they declined to go to court and went away.Courts on the whole do not like sharp practice but the experience made me cautious and I avoid certain parking companies and therefore certain shops.
Love the fact you have brought this isuue to the notice of the general public and that you are passionate enough to convey your views,
The other is type of car park a barrier implies if you open it by taking a ticket or pcn camera operated you are agreeing to the contract. An open car park allows publically accessable access without contract until you park and hopefully see the terms of contract board with ticket machine, so if you drive in and out you are free of contract. Take a ticket it should be displayed and the attendants should look for it not just where majority put the tickets but only if they state hang it on the driver door window. Or place in front of the steering wheel by windscreen. I had this with a blue badge card it was on the seat visible. They let me off as the knew it was displayed 😊
Can you please share your defence after this is over?
This would really help us understand the best way to go about filing a defence.
Thanks!
never give DVLA your correct address, then you will never get sent any more invoices
I am in Victoria, B.C., Canada and have yet to have parking enforcement ticket someone within a few minuets of parking, especially as they know that sometimes it is hard to have correct change for some locations that are not already converted to using the tap to pay. The tickets are printed on a roll and have place on dash, date and time side up in bold print for the non-digital parking locations, the tiny receipts from the digital ones say keep this receipt for your records. It seems some parking locations need to update their practices with these minor changes to ensure that they are in compliance and that those that park, check the meter and the terms and leave immediately are not charged.
@ericblenner-hassett3945
> I am in Victoria, B.C., Canada and have yet to have parking enforcement
> ticket someone within a few minuets of parking, especially as they know
> that sometimes it is hard to have correct change for some locations
> that are not already converted to using the tap to pay.
I know of a car park in the UK where it is a 20 minute walk to the nearest ticket machine.
My experience with a PCN is that they use ANPR .
They don’t physically check cars on car parks. My wife is disabled & uses a blue badge , we went to park at a local shopping carpark . But all the disabled bays where been used some not displaying blue badges so we had to park further away . We received a notice of the charge so I took to sending them a response which along the lines of if you can prove to me in court how many penalty charge notices you have issued in the carpark for parking in the disabled bays or others that are clearly marked. Seeing you don’t actually check them so if you wish to proceed to court I’ll happily turn up . But I the meantime the £300 . I spent in this shopping park I will be taking it all back to the shops for a refund then you can explain why to the retailer . Bearing in mind it was about 10 minutes over & my wife was needing her medication .
They cancelled it with little hesitation
Check the photographs they send you and see the location of your vehicle. Was it on their property or just a random location.
Some contracts you are deemed to have read and accepted the terms and conditions even if this is not the case
Good ol' Moss, watch him regularly.
This is an example of Artificial Intelligence generating Invoices incorrectly
Parking companies operate on the fear factor that if you don't pay the PCN we will take legal action.
And the motorist always coughs up because of that fear.
Thanks to BBBs videos the motorist can challenge their illegal PNC on technicalities.
Time for the motorist to fightback and stop being a cash cow to these parking company cowboys.
That's why I'm using two House of Lords' rulings from 2000 and 2001 which deal with bias. I recently used the ruling in the case from 2000 in an appeal before the Upper Tribunal (not parking) and won.
@@bluebottle1617- You didn't say what your PNC was for, and why you won with the ruling of the House of Frauds?
Same as any other claim on any other alleged breach of contract....
I worked for the NHS and paid monthly through my wages to use the car park. 8 times over a period of 4 years I forgot to place my blue badge on the dashboard. I refused to pay the pcn on the grounds that my car was registerd with estates who dealt with parking . I was forced into medical retirement and suddenly found myself being taken to court and forced to pay a fine of £1000. If I use the same car park as a patient I get free parking.
A technicality, because they don't have their physical address available? Weak! You had a ticket, that should be enough.
Could you discuss about landlord and tenant laws regarding acquiring property back from tennant threatening not to vacate despite being on short term tenancy agreement. Thanks.
If you haven't had a reply about this yet, I can offer you non-legal advice. Basically, you need to serve a 60 day Notice To Quit, or Notice Seeking Possession, ( whichever is stated in the tenancy agreement ), which must be in writing, stating that you intend to evict the tenant under a No Fault Eviction condition. These have now been ruled unlawful, but since this law doesn't become active until January 2024, you can still legally use it as a justifiable reason to evict your tenant. Most landlords tell a tenant that they want possession because they intend to sell the property, so you may want to use this as a justifiable reason to evict. The standard 30 day notice of seeking possession was doubled to 60 days after the COVID 19 laws were passed, so 2 months is the earliest that you can begin legal proceedings against your tenant. Also, the current tenancy term must either have expired, or have less than 60 days remaining on it, for the Notice to Quit or Notice Seeking Possession to be legally valid. This is because by the time the case reaches the Court hearing stage, all remaining time left on the tenancy has expired, meaning that the tenant has no legal right to remain in the property. The same rule applies if the tenancy is on a month to month rolling contract, once the initial tenancy term has expired. As soon as the 60 days have expired, you should apply to your local County Court for the relevant eviction form, stating the tenancy breaches that the tenant has committed, including any rent arrears, anti-social behaviour, noise nuisance etc. You will need to provide paper evidence at any court hearing, for the judge to consider. You should also provide a Statement of Truth document, ideally hand-written by you, and signed by you, especially if it's the only document that you're submitting, which should briefly give all background information which is relevant to the eviction, stating that the statement is true to the best of your knowledge and belief. This should be factual only, and be easy to understand. Try to keep it to a single A4 size sheet of paper, using both sides if necessary, because District Judges don't like reading long documents. You could employ a Level D qualified solicitor to do this for you, but they charge by the hour, and this can make your legal bill cost several thousand pounds, and in my experience, most solicitors won't be as efficient or thorough as you, since they still get paid even if they only provide a low-quality service. A Level D solicitor is the cheapest and least experienced solicitor you can hire to represent you in court. Personally though, it's a very simple process, as long as you follow all the steps in the correct order, observing any time limits involved. Only send in photocopies of original documents, as you will need the originals to refer to in court. No alterations may be made to the original documents, once the copies have been submitted to the court. If you realise that you've made a mistake on any of the paperwork AFTER you've sent in copies of the paperwork, then don't worry, because you can always write out a short statement to correct any mistakes, which you MUST take with you to the court, and present it to the District Judge as soon as the hearing begins. All your documents submitted must be signed and dated. You may prefer to type your letters on a laptop, and then print them out, to be easier to read, if your handwriting isn't particularly neat. The County Court will contact you by post with an initial hearing date, and they will also contact your tenant by post with the same court date. This will usually be about a month after the 60 Notice to Quit has expired. Please wear either a suit or smart clothes to the court hearing, as this will present you in good standing with the District Judge. As courts are usually reluctant to evict tenants, you must do everything correct the first time, as any mistakes could mean the tenant is allowed to stay in the property if you haven't followed all the necessary legal procedures. You may find that once the Court sends the tenant the eviction hearing summons, the tenant may just move out before the court hearing date, which would be the ideal scenario for you in this case. If the court grants you possession of the property, the tenant will then have a final 30 days to find alternative accommodation, and move out. They will also be given a final date to leave the property, the day after which you can then remove the tenant, with Police attendance if necessary, to prevent any breach of the peace, after which you can change the locks, which I strongly advise that you do, to prevent re-entry by the former tenant.
I've personally been in a tenant eviction situation 4 times in the previous 8 years, so I know a lot about the procedures from personal experience. Good Luck.
@@NomadicNight thank you so much. 🙏
@@m.goodengumman3941 You're welcome. One more thing that I forgot to mention, was that if you're not going to hire a solicitor in court, it's advisable to visit a Citizens Advice Bureau just to check that any eviction laws haven't changed since 2019, which was my last court appearance for an attempted court eviction, as I'm not fully up to date with any changes that may have been made since then. ( My situation was for rent arrears, which have now been fully repaid, and I'm still living in my flat. ) You can just mention in court that you've taken advice from a Citizens Advice Bureau on the process of eviction. This will not only give you confidence in court, but will also show the District Judge that you're a responsible landlord/landlady. Good luck with your tenant situation.
If UKPC Only give a PO box and an 03445 number what regulations apply?? And 😢😢😢 if smart parking give a geographic address that is just a serviced office with no public access does it count as a geographic business address???
Wow. How complicated can a parking ticket be
What I'd like to know is how to get a parking company to prove that they are entitled to impose a charge if what they have on their signs is breached.
In cases where the ownership of the land is not obvious, and it has been/could have been leased to another party, who then sub-let it to another party who then contracts with yet another party to manage it for them, there are many layers and stages at which the right to recover charges might not have been passed on.
Or contracts/leases/rights might have changed from when the parking company was first engaged and erected their signs.
The land in question might be owned and used in different ways by different people, and if some of them enter into agreements with drivers which allow parking but do *not* say that permits have to be displayed, it becomes even more obfuscated.
I'm not in the habit of paying money to people just because they claim I owe it to them, I want proof that I do.
And given that parking companies have sometimes ticketed people who are outwith their "jurisdiction", and given the unknown nature of leases, sub-leases, and the contractual terms with the parking company, I'm disinclined to just take their word for it.
If debt is real, I'll pay it. If it isn't I won't.
But how to get them to *prove* it is real, rather than think they can simply assert it with no evidence?
BBB should issue 'belt and braces' merchandise to ensure that any vehicle can adhere a valid parking permit to the inside of any vehicle and 'adhere' to contractual law!
Is there not a cooling down period for a consumer to cancel the contract???
Good luck BBB. I hope you rinse them!
If it is a pay and display car park then the key word is display. Though i agree the person writing the ticket shoukd have been more forgiving as long as your pasd was fully legible from the greater distance.
Display, a very vague term, when you give it a moments thought. 🤔
these private parking firms are minimal on the human interaction to maximise the profit from these charges. there is little to no "forgiving" in their process and it seems that the default response to an appeal is a refusal to threaten people into thinking they're gonna have to pay for it or risk the amount going up. The key here is to realise when you have a case and not feel threatened. Also the refusal that states you have to liaise with POPLA (the so-called independent governing body) is not always true as I've rejected a rejection by going directly back to the business with further threats of a contract to cover my time stress and anxiety. Know the facts of exactly what you are dealing with and what your circumstances were but don't be more threatening than they are and let them set the precedent for style of communication. definitely don't think that you can have a friendly conversation with a human being who will say "oh I totally understand, we will cancel the PCN and sorry for the misunderstanding" cos they don't work like that
My advice. Don't let the permit fall off the dash. Check before you walk away. Unless you have a UA-cam channel and are a barrister. If you are both of these things, then place it on the drivers seat, face up, and hope you get a ticket. Especially if you're running out of TV Licence content.
Yeah... Did the wind blow it off or??? I respect BBB sovereignty to make videos and teachings... The premise of a failing or flailing permit is easily preventable ... It would seem to me. Precision is a skill with multiple applications 😉
Could this still form a defence if they have displayed a registered address on their website but not displayed it on their signage?
Could I in theory be allowed to alter the parking sign/contract?
Let me just say that you should be careful ignoring parking charge notices as these parking charge companies will contact a local court and seek a CCJ against you and get the courts to force you into a payment plan. Should that fail (for example you shift address) they will then pass the debt on to debt collection companies who will keep trying to find you. A lot of this sort of thing is fully automated too. They work with companies like Money Collection Online and Experian to automatically submit court judgments and debt collection contracts. It's all done via API and you're just one of many running through their money making systems.
They can’t do that without going to a small claims court first who will contact you so you can put your case. Only if you loose can they send debt collectors.
@@paulcs2607 I believe many of them use the bulk rubber stamping that the Northampton Traffic Court administer. They present 100 + claims at a time, if no one has turned up the Court Official approves and stamps them all, without even reading them it seems, and you are stuffed as there is now an official court ruling against you.
Just how the Northampton Court is allowed to operate as part of our supposedly fair 'Innocent until proven guilty' legal system is beyond me.
I would welcome a BBB video about this particular court and its operations.
@@paulcs2607don't count on justice in the small claims 😏
@@paulcs2607 My comment is in reference to ignoring the parking charges. If you fail to show up in court and ignore the summons then they will rules against you.
@@Kifter1983 Re not turning up in court - I agree. But until it goes to court the parking company can’t do a thing other than use intimidating language such as “we may”, “it could”, “we might” etc. The can only change that language to “will” and “shall” if the court rules in their favour. Even the CBA say ignoring the PCN is a valid option because you have not broken the law.
Could lack of clarity also apply to the way tvlicensing give info on their site provide good defense?
What if they first show a PObox address followed by a postcode?
How does TFL get away with it ?
They are not a private company and have the benefit of Law and Bylaws in their favour + they are responsible to a despot so ..........
Doesn't the affixing of the invoice to your car neutralise the distance selling argument? The whole transaction was concluded on-site, without any distance communication, and you had no reasonable expectation that it would be otherwise.
Distance from whom or what?
A human, as not person to person
a machine, ticket machine to person
can you do video on littering my son was fine £100 for littering that he did not do
i was not given access to body cam foorage and was there was no appal process
it was a case of pay or go to court for none payment
Different subject entirely, but it's an interesting one. Councils employ third party companies to act as "environmental enforcement officers" to manage littering in places like town centres. If you drop litter, the offence is only committed if/when you leave it. If you accidentally drop something and pick it up again then on paper at least, no offence has been committed. If you've dropped somethign without realising, anyone policing litter is supposed to give you the opportunity to pick it up and dispose of it properly.
The reality however, is very different. These "enforcement officers" have ticketing quotas to meet and consequently will jump on someone if they see so much as a flake of pastry falling off a sausage roll. They will claim "zero tolerance policy" and try and demand your details to issue a fixed penalty notice even if you have already picked the offending litter up.
Can you refuse to give your details? Well, yes and no. They're not police officers so don't have the power to detain or arrest you, but they can and will threaten to phone the police to attend if you refuse. The police usually won't attend though as it's not really worth their time to get involved in such trivialities. I've seen videos of them following people around town centres pestering them for details. The quickest way to get rid of them is to get into a taxi and have them drop you a short distance away. Don't get into your own car though as there's a chance they could get your details from the registration number. I've heard that they're not allowed onto private property so if there's a large shop nearby with multiple entrances and exits you could potentially walk in one way and out another, and they're not supposed to follow you.
However, if you do give them your details and the FPN is issued, you're correct in that there is no appeals process. You can either accept liability and pay the fine or go to court and argue your case there.
I'm not sure how easy this kind of charge would be to fight in court. I'd imagine it would come down to their word against yours and it's impossible to say with any certainty how it would go.
What about the company that has a term that states that there is a embargo on returning within two hours to the same car park. I went shopping, the car park is free for two hours, I was there fifteen minutes and left. I went home and the wife jumped in the car to do her weekly shop and went to the same carpark. She had no idea that i had just left so We are expecting a parking charge notice. Would the courts consider that as reasonable and outside their terms if it got that far. I assume the photographic evidence from the ANPR would show the driver but I can't be sure of that.
Many of the cameras only take a snap of the number plate
Just curious on another angle say you we’re already living at a property and using a carpark without permits. But then they tried change it to paid permits could you legally object/ refuse to pay?
Am I wrong in hoping that they do try and sue you?
Why can’t parking waldens just leave people alone they are a waste of space
Has a barrister your part of the system 😮 there are rules/statutes/legislation that gets rid of this scam?
Geographical address required only on the signage? ambiguous that...
Veey interesting video. How does this relate to the fact that you had a permit, presumably pre-purchased or issued subject to you being qualified in some way to be given one? I can see that you have a contract with the permit issuer to provide you with goods (the permit) which presumably gives you an ‘entitlement’ - the ability to park in specific locations. I assume that when you entered into the contract for the supply of the permit that the company had s geographical address? As such you presumably don’t have a direct contract with the parking enforcement agency. Are there any conditions attached to the issue if the permit which state that you must comply with other parking conditions? What is the relationship between the company that issued the permit and the enforcement agency? How are terms and conditions transferred between the two and down to you?
A permit is not 'goods': it is a supply of services. The supply of services and goods differ in their legal treatment. Your other questions depend entirely on what the contract said.
Any chance you can sell some Barristers clothing! Don't think it would go down too well if I go to court wearing one of your present merchandise. PS the big question is what would happen if I dress as a barrister in a court of Law??
No unqualified person is to act as a solicitor, this contravenes The Solicitors Act 1974 and maybe possibly The Administration of Justice Act 1985, the Legal Services Act 2007 and the Criminal Justice Act 1982. Good luck with impersonating any legal person, they've got you by the balls.
I don't really see how the notice itself can be a contract to which the 2013 regulations apply. The contract for the use of a parking permit in certain car parks with agreed conditions was formed previously. Tickets are issued (whether correctly or not) within the framework of that contract. The contract already provided for the payment of charges in the event of a perceived breach of that agreement. The charge notice itself is not a new contract.
Doesn’t this imply that the original contract wasn’t valid if they didn’t use an address on the admission for a permit, if you are using that argument?
@@SimpleSlyman As far as I know, we don't have that information. I don't know, and I could be wrong, but I assume the permit is from a Local Authority and the the parking management company is a subcontractor to them. It seems unlikely to me that a contract between the LA and an individual for the issue and use of a permit in car parks owned by the LA would be missing the address of the LA!
@@andykrykant5378 fair point, if it’s that kind of permit
@@SimpleSlyman Yes, again, we don't really know. But even if it is a private parking company that issues its own permit, the analysis would be the same. The issue of the permit for use of the car park would be the point at which the contract was created, not the issue of a charge notice. That's just something that is done in the course of the operation of the contract. Therefore the 2013 regulations don't apply directly to the notice. But as you point out, the regulations would apply to the creation of the contract. If that was significantly defective, potentially no charge they ever made to anyone with a parking permit was payable!
Are these companies allowed to use the word 'fine'? Isn't that a falsehood and negates legality of contract?
They don't use that word, so no. Even if they did, it would not negate the whole contract, it would merely void those clauses of the contract that used that word.
@@jdb47games I asked because I have seen a sign that does.
I've been issued a PCN for having parked with my nearside wheels over the painted bay, the area next to me was not another bay, so not preventing other cars from parking, nor was I impeding traffic flow around the car park, they rejected my appeal, but never told me they rejected my appeal, I got a threatening letter from DRP,
I am here for this ride.
Is there something in consumer law, where if you enter into a distance contract, don’t you have a cooling off period ?
😂 from other posts 10 mins it seems
After you have used the product or service?
@@geoffhaylock6848 Nice try 😂😂😂😂! I don't think claiming a 14 day cooling off period will work for a 60 minute parkin agreement.
@@barrieshepherd7694 Please try reading what I read. It's not difficult 🤣
@@geoffhaylock6848 Oh dear..........I will really have to make sure I use a sarcastic/irony marker.
Yes there are cooling off periods but even my warped mind tells me that if you have eaten the apples sent by post you can't then claim a cooling off cancellation period 😂😂😂😂
I don't believe one moment he put his pass on the dashboard and it blew off lol.
He threw it on his drivers seat and is now flexing and wasting the Courts time whislt tub-thumping
That was my first reaction as well. I have a deep seated dislike of people who use the letter of the law to get what they want, when it clearly goes against the spirit of the law.
However in this case it sounds like the parking company was doing the same. The guy paid, they knew that, but they still issued a ticket because of the fine print in the contract. So let him have his fun in court 😊
What would be the point in that? He's clearly paid for the permit, it's not like he was trying to dodge an expense.
He's also been a responsible parent by keeping his car cool on a hot day. Hot cars kill children and pets.
Perhaps the company could design their permits a bit better so they can't be blown off the windscreen, in my opinion.
@@katyb2793 I'm not going to get into a debate about how responsible a parent he is. Madeleine Mccann's on paper where as well..
As for designing better wind proof passes lol.
Never seen on you can't slightly wedge against the front window.
@@kaasmeester5903His argument is based on 'common sense' in that the attendant should be expected to check dashboard, 5 seats, and just in case the footwells of each vehicle. For every car....
All the attendant needed to have done is take a photo of the permitless dashboard and it's time to pony up lol
He's not in Court. And he is not taking anyone to Court. 😕
Just wondered.
The notice clearly says that you must not interfere with the notice unless you were “Authorised”.
Were you?
Yes, as it was intended for the driver of the vehicle.
@@jdb47games But where does it say that?
@@tombloomfield4784 It doesn't, as it doesn't need to. It's meaningless legally, and just a phrase they put on it to look more official. In law it is simply a document intended for the driver, like any other note left on a windscreen.
Eh? A postcode is a geographical address surely? Besides, the registered office address for a UK Ltd Company is available to everyone.
A PO Box is merely a Royal Mail location where correspondence is retained for collection by the user of the box. That is not the same as a company physical address.
@@kalpat5753Fair enough. But still, the address of any UK Ltd Company is public information.
And anyway, the charge notice is not the formation of a contract.
@@andykrykant5378 Yep but the Parking Charge Notice claims you have accepted the Contract "As displayed on the sign" so if the signs words are not compliant with the contract laws then the PCN cannot be enforced - at least I think that is the argument.
@@barrieshepherd7694 What I say is that the contract for the use of certain car parks with the parking permit already existed before he drove into the car park. It is that contract which would need to comply with the 2013 regulations. The signs in the car park and the charge notice are things to do with the operation of that pre existing contract.
Of course, we have no information about the details of that contract. But that's where we have to look for compliance with the 2013 regulations.
It would be different if he just drove in and used a ticket machine.
But note that the 2013 regulations don't apply to contracts concluded by automatic vending machines.
@@andykrykant5378 I can see that in relation to the BB specific case - the contract had been agreed/accepted when the permits were bought/acquired.
Interesting that the 2013 Regulations do not apply to contracts through vending machines - now we can have a discussion about what constitutes a vending machine!
Maybe this subtilty is why some car parks now make you take a ticket from a machine - even without payment - to prove the entry time and also to claim the ticket was 'vended' thus avoiding any 2013 regulation issues.
If the car park sign says (if you do whatever) "a parking charge notice will be issued" - Does this in fact create a contract to pay the charge? They may 'issue' it, but do I have to pay it?
If you enter into a contract, you have to fulfil the terms of that contract.
@geoff - They indicate that "a parking charge notice will be issued" - but does that form a contract? If so, how?
@@geoffhaylock6848Do you? I think that there are plenty of situations where this is not true, unenforceable terms.
@@geoffhaylock6848 But how have you entered into a contract? You've been told that a charge notice will be issued, but nowhere have you agreed to pay it! If you reply to this post, I will send you a Posting Charge Notice for £50. Does that mean you have to pay it?
What I am trying to say is that in my opinion, the wording of many car park signs is inadequate, and it can be argued that no contract is formed. Worth looking at if you get a ticket?
Thank you
I know that these parking charge companies must contact the keeper of the vehicle within a prescribed period if they are to compel the keeper to disclose the driver of the vehicle (unless you live in Scotland, in which case you don't need to disclose who the driver of the vehicle is). I believe this legislation is covered by POPLA / POFA. From memory parking charge companies have 14 days to contact the keeper (details disclosed by DVLA) which is typically done via letter. However, we all know how unreliable the postal service is these days, so I think it's perfectly reasonable that you might not of received this letter or any of the follow up letters indicating that charges will increase if the amount remains unpaid. It makes me wonder if the recipient of the letter claims they never received it, and there is no proof to contrary, and the period in which the keeper must disclose the driver of the vehicle has elapsed, does that then mean the keeper doesn't have to disclose who the driver is, and this also mean the onus is upon the parking charge company to conclusively prove for themselves unaided by the keeper who was driving and who is liable for the charges levvied?
@Kifter1983
> ... It makes me wonder if the recipient of the letter claims they never received it,
> and there is no proof to contrary, and the period in which the keeper must disclose
> the driver of the vehicle has elapsed, does that then mean the keeper doesn't have
> to disclose who the driver is, and this also mean the onus is upon the parking charge
> company to conclusively prove for themselves unaided by the keeper who was
> driving and who is liable for the charges levvied?
If you’d bothered to read the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 you’d know the answer to that.
And it’s “no”.
Proof of delivery is not required, and in the absence of *proof of NON-DELIVERY*, it’s assumed that the letter was delivered on the second working day after the day on which it was posted.
@@anonnona8099 Thanks Anon. Now I don't have to read that boring document. Thanks for taking the time to help us all out so we don't have to waste our own time. 😀
@@Kifter1983
> @anonnona8099 Thanks Anon. Now I don't have to read that boring document.
> Thanks for taking the time to help us all out so we don't have to waste our own time. 😀
You were the one wondering what it said when it was always within your grasp to find out.
You seem to be proud of your self-inflicted deliberate ignorance and utterly shameful laziness.
Just bin it once you leave. Alert DVLA you live at No.1 Timbucktoo. Feck em.
Got your back up Dan?
👍✅🗯️🌎🔔
I went out with CID from totenham court station, i got a speeding ticket caught by camera it was day my mum died, i sent my mums death certificate but still had to pay and 3 points, my CID friend said write this, ""PLEASE PROVE THIS OFFENCE"" just that as my friend said the prosicution would need a whitness to prove me guilty in any court of law, but cameras dont have a whitness. I got a letter back, THIS OFFENCE HAS BEEN DROPPED NO FURTHER ACTION Will TAKE PLACE, made sence infact i was surprised all that court prosicution all that money to prove me guilty i was doing 34 miles hr in a 30 mile zone, was not like i was doing dangerous speed, plus i was crying my mum Just died.
Pretty confident that you are licenced to drive. That licence is going to make a claim of being a consumer an up hill push. You have been trained, have proved competency and should be aware of parking requirements.
A defence to that argument could be that "..and should be aware of parking requirements." is not practical as virtually every car park in the country has, to a greater or lesser extent different parking Terms & Conditions. This is not like the driving rules enshrined in the HWC and Law and applicable across each Country.
Please turn up in wig and gown
While you may be a barrister, you are not permitted to attend Court as a defendant wearing a wig and gown. These accoutrements are to indicate the roles of the Court Officials and a defendant is not a Court Official for the purposes of that case. Nothing to stop a defendant from indicating to the Court that they are qualified in the legal profession though. One thing to bear in mind is that Courts do not have a sense of humour and take a very dim view of anyone attempting such shenanigans.
SOUND POOR
They need to be able to prove who the driver was, not who the registered keeper was in order to take you to court. If you ignore the notices that come in the post they are unable to prove who was driving so cannot successfully make a claim through court. Works every single time.
This used to be the case but it's not quite true any more. Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 allows parking operators to pursue a vehicle's registered keeper for an unpaid parking charge if they fail to identify the driver. But it's not quite as clear cut as that. In order to rely on the keeper liability clause there's a lot of hoops they have to jump through. They need to word their notices and letters VERY specifically. A lot of companies don't bother with this and just try to wing it instead.
POFA doesn't apply in Scotland, nor does it apply to land where there are by-laws in place such as train station car parks or airport dropoff zones. So if you get a parking charge in one of those places, you can usually just tell them to Foxtrot Oscar.
This has not been true since 2012.
Once something happens it becomes case law
This is all a nonsense.
These companies will bully car owners into settling out of court. They have honed their process so that they put the frighteners on you. The one thing that they WON’T do, is actually turn up at court. They will issue ‘small claims court’ procedures, but if you turn up, they won’t actually send a solicitor.
They don’t make money by actually taking people to court because it is too expensive as they can’t send an employee along to represent them, but have to use a legal representative.
Their whole MO is based on frightening people. If you play their bluff and turn up at court (which will probably cost you more than the ‘fine’), they won’t turn up and the case will be uncontested, and you will win.
Your ‘win’ will be soured by the fact that you have lost a day’s pay.
This is true for some parking companies, not others, plenty do turn up at court (although not themselves, usually via a hired legal rep)
A decade or more ago, I got a PCN at a train station. I was working freelance at the time, and had been booked for a night shift - not something I would normally do. I arrived at the station around 11pm, paid for a 12 hour ticket, and went to work. Arriving back at 9am the following morning, I had a charge notice! Apparently all tickets expired at midnight!
On inspecting the noticeboard at the entrance in daylight, I did eventually find the section which mentioned that tickets were only valid until midnight. It was in VERY small print at the end of the notice. However, I successfully challenged the charge on the grounds that one of the lights illuminating the notice had failed, resulting in that section of the notice not being lit. Since I arrived at the dead of night, there was no way I would have seen it!
If I am being honest, I probably wouldn't have seen it anyway, being so small. I'm not even sure that buying two tickets would have worked, as both would have been for the previous day, and therefore presumably invalid after midnight. In my discussions with them, it seems that they had no idea that people may need to work over-night sometimes. They only backed down when I pointed out the failed light...
Pretty confident that you are licenced to drive. That licence is going to make a claim of being a consumer an up hill push. You have been trained, have proved competency and should be aware of parking requirements.
This situation is absolutely fascinating and I will be watching avidly.
My only question is, is parking a distance sale contract? Surely the car park is the trader's premises, and the sale is being conducted there? The only exception would be if you bought a ticket or permit on their website before visiting the car park.
Good point
Main business premises - not simply business premises
I use the perfect way to avoid a parking ticket where there’s only anpr’s in use. I have a automatic number plate hider, I drop the covers just before the anpr and lift after leaving 😁
The company who gave you this charge will be regretting it soon.... big time lol
Why?
@@mariemccann5895 oh have a good think about it 🤣
@@KarrierBag I have, what do they stand to lose? Nothing.
@@mariemccann5895 🤣🤣🤣 naa you don't get it do you?
@@KarrierBag You are the one that doesn't get. Look who is already the loser here.
How does this "Prrotection of Freedoms act" cover this? The issue that needs testing is the use of ANPR.
I wonder, do you even need a number plate when entering private land? Obviously they capture you on the public road so this must make them bound by the data protection acts.
@@geoffhaylock6848 you would commit the offence of failing to display a registration/number plate, as a car park (private or otherwise) is considered a road: www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/192/enacted
There was a clampdown on the use of ANPR some years ago. Civil enforcement companies were banned from using it due to abuse.
Does the "contract" describe who "unauthorised" or "authorised" persons are? As unauthorised persons cannot open the document: are you an authorised or unauthorised person? I would like to know if said "contract" described who is allowed to open the PCN.
Go back to your original mic' a few months ago that was nowhere near your mouth, as now you sound muffled, and also as if the Bass is turned up to the max. whoever suggested you get so near to the mic' needs to be sacked.
The judge will say look on companies house, then we loose again
But this info must be available prior to entering the contract, so not by looking it up on Companies House, I'd say.
BBB, I'm amazed at the details you produced here ! Never realized how complicated it can be. Thank you for the video.
Glad it was helpful!
Is the purpose of the physical address that you must be able to serve them in the event of a contract dispute?
We paid £5 cash in a private car park using a ticket machine just a few meters from where we parked our car and displayed our ticket on the dashboard.
Weve received a parking charge notice a couple of weeks later and were lucky to have kept our ticket.
We sent a copy of our ticket together with the pcn highting the entry and exit rimes , being within the time limits. We are now expected to pay £170 because they refused to accept our evidence that we did indeed pay.
Arkell vs Pressdram Ltd
Tell them to see you in court.Keep your original car park ticket as proof of payment.A District Judge can't refuse that.
if they gave reasonable grounds then that might be something to follow up. I got refused immediately and their response was a sign that was nowhere near where I parked so I replied stating I rejected their rejection and could gather further proof but that would involve entering into a contract with me to proceed along with all the assosiated costs of gathering such evidence plus the costs of the stress and anxiety that it caused. I stated that the 2 ways to avoid entering into a contract with me would be to either indicate the exact bay where my vehicle was parked (they provide a sign that was not found in the car park where I was parked) or to cancel the PCN. the latter can stay true for most cases but the former you will need to adapt to fit your specific scenario so to prove that you did not purchase a ticket when clearly you have evidence to the contrary therefore likely putting the burden of proof back to them. The reason there is a PO Box and automated phone numbers with no real opportunity to speak to a human being I feel is deliberately making so-called appeals difficult. Be very entertaining if the geographical address was an issue although likely they might not want to pursue this too heavily as it may require them to change all those signs. It might go to court and be deemed unreasonable to expect them to provide a physical address as this may be subject to abuse from disgruntled "customers" and therefore be a reason why they might choose to use a post office box. I guess BBB would know best about that aspect
@@mattwoodford1820 Thank you for this info. In exasperation I paid the full amount even though I felt there was enough proof that their machines did not prompt for a reg to be recorded. In future I will know to take 'on the spot' photos, etc and act a little more quickly. When this happens it is soooo frustrating, especially as you know you've paid for parking.
one individual drives a vehicle into a car park, pays or stays within time then drives away. A second person drives the vehicle and goes to same car park (different location in it maybe) is the second person liable if the re-visit is within the time the first person's contract says they should not re-visit the car park ?
That depends on what the contract says on the matter.
@@jdb47games but can party B be bound by the actions of party A
@@highpath4776 Yes, provided B accepts such terms in advance, as with any other contract.
@@jdb47games how would acceptance be known if A does not communicate with B so B does not know what A has done, is A on notice to fully account for all their movements to B ?
Very very important to realise that On street Parking, governed by legal Traffic Regulation Orders, are totally different to Private Land Parking, as stipulated here. PCN's issued by Civil Enforcement Officers ( Traffic Wardens) have the legality of the TRO, however, they can still be appealed, if necessary. To confuse the two could cost you dearly !!
So what do you do when your being photographed by people In upstairs flat window and then get parking notice from local council your wheels on just over a bus stop line £70 fine through the post no traffic warden in sight
@@patdarwent7699 Appeal it, find out what the criteria is for the contravention. How much of the vehicle has to be in the contravention zone, ie bus stop. Is it half the car length, or just the bumper hanging over !. Is there a timeplate describing the hours the bus stop contravention is in force ie 8am to 8pm, or is it 24 hours! You can generally see the contraventions and issue codes, Traffic Reg Orders online with the local council. Hope this helps
@@patdarwent7699 You mention about being photographed out of an upstairs window. Think about parallax error and how this might affect the view as to how much you are over the line. The only way to get a real perspective is to be at ground level...
@@pichacker Thank you I appreciate you explaining that and I will definitely take that on board
Being a Traffic Warden,I can honestly say,hand on heart,if I see a driver in a vehicle on a contravention,I give them the opportunity to move off the contravention.If they refuse then I issued the pcn.Ifvthere is no driver in the vehicle,then it gets a pcn anyway The only issues that are instant issues,no questions asked are pedestrian crossing zigzags,and school zigzags......I do not issue for overhang,and will only issue if a wheel and wheel arch are on the contravention.I do give a little leeway.If there is no Roadside Plate,then the pcn cannot be issued The only contraventions that do not require a roadside plate are zigzags school zigzags and DYL's.
I've beat parking charges and even parking penalty notices several times. 2012 - local authority signage not in accordance with Chapter 8 Traffic Signs Manual. This went to tribunal. For supermarkets, just send a receipt for the day of the weekly shop that you overstayed and threaten to withdraw your custom. That has done the trick five times. More recently, I appealed the penalty notice by telling them that their signage was not in accordance with BPA guidance, explained how with photos of their carpark and other compliant local carparks in that there were too few signs and the signs on the entrance were obscured. They upgraded the signage two weeks before confirming that the charge had been cancelled.