Is it OK to Change the Backing Plate on Your Polisher? [RUPES Replies Episode 013]
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- Опубліковано 28 лип 2020
- Around the web conversations about backing plate swaps and tool modification are rampant but rarely do these conversations talk about the potential impact of these changes. In this episode Global Director of Training, Jason Rose, talks about how significant this impact is to the tool and how it can have a detrimental effect on your polisher lifespan.
IMPORTANT NOTE: RUPES does not endorse or recommend the modification of tools from their original factory specifications. Doing so could potentially void your warranty or result in unexpected damage or injury.
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#rupes #backingplate #polishermod
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I always enjoy anything you have to say Jason as you are extremely knowledgable. This is one area where the rotary stands alone over a DA, you can put any size plate and pad on it and it will work. However it has some major downsides to it that gives the DA's advantages over it. know plenty of people who do the switch from 6 inch on the LHR21 to the 5 inch. But we both prefer the 15 mm orbit of the LHR15 so I'd rather just use the LHR15 and have one tool. for me it's finish that matters not speed of cut. A 5 inch pad is more aggressive on a DA than a 6 inch one on the same machine. What you have explained makes total sense to me, unfortunately one thing to be sure with detailers is that they like to tweak and play with things and no tool is made to the point where nothing really can be done to make it better, there's always something even with Rupes. However all I can think of right now with the bigfoots is improving the body shape of them for better ergonomics and comfort, mainly for the hand that stays at the rear handle, make the middle not just narrow and square but more wavy (I like to hold rotaries and DA's at the middle in certain situations and my Fein rotary has a contoured middle section to allow that. plastic body that has some flexibility in it so the Rupes tools wont crack if their accidentally dropped onto hard floors. adjustable front handle (width and length) as I have big hands plus more backing plate choices (thickness and softness wise) are all I'm thinking of at this point. I would never buy a 21. great orbit size for flat areas but it's not ideal in many cases. I like 10-16 mm
Dang,I ordered 5”backing plate for my lhr21 to help with tighter spaces. Wish I would’ve watched this video first. I love my Rupes and don’t want to risk damaging it. I’m just a garage guy/weekend warrior so I may just have to look into a smaller diameter polisher in the future. Thanks for the info,it makes perfect sense after seeing the cutaway example.
Thanks for the info, Jason! I was about to do this but glad I held off.
Thanks for the info Jason!
Went from a 21 with 5in plate to a 15 with a 5in plate and it is an obvious difference in vibration. I have never had any issues from my 21 but it does make me wonder about finishing results. Finishing with no marring seems to be less of an issue with the 15 and proper sized plate than when I used my 21.
Outside of the surface area differences, have you guys considered creating a weighted 5” plate for the LHR21 to combat the vibration concern? We mostly stick to 5” pads to save on having to buy so many pads in duplicate sizes for different types of jobs. Also curious if this is a concern for the iBrid nano series. Thank you.
Thanks for the comment. It is certainly something we could look into for the future. But consider also that the LHR15 (standard with a 125mm/5") plate with the slightly smaller offset can be more effective in more areas, like edgework. The 21 struggles in these areas not only because of pad size, but the offset (orbit) make it really ineffective at the edges of panels or anywhere you're working against a perpendicular surface. The 21 tends to be more effective in bodyshop applications where the panels are off the vehicle and the operator doesn't have to worry about these things.
As far as the nano, the size is so small that the vibration difference for the 2 standard pad sizes is minimal and virtually undetectable to the user.
@@RUPES for edgework one should use mini/nano anyway.
Yes... that is the best way and the reason those tools exist.
Gracias Por el consejo Rupes
Great video. I've had people recommend I try some aftermarket backing plates such as the Excel Evolution. Do you have the same long term concerns from switching these out for the factory Rupes plates?
Thanks for your question. We do not endorse the use of any aftermarket backing plates. We have seen these plates lead to premature failure of bearings and other components due to the imbalance they create.
When should you replace your backing plate? Upon storing it it left a slight indentation mark. Not sure if that affects anything or if there is a typical replacement cadence.
Hi Jason, I have the LHR15. I was just at a shop looking for the 145mm coarse wool pads; they were sold out but suggested I should buy the 170mm pads instead, and since they were bigger than the backing plate, they would work just as well. What's your opinion on that?
That would not be recommended. The additional weight and mass (as explained in the video) would have an impact on balance. Also there are performance/results side effects with additional material out at the edges "flapping". It often times manifests as a ghosting or haze at the edge of the polishers path on some paints.
In the 21 vs 15 webinar, Fabrizio mentioned that the orbit (which is forced) does the bulk of the defect removal, and the rotation (disperses heat, prevents holograms) is a secondary motion.
I would love tho hear this explained more in-depth.
I understand how it work, but other might benefit from a more pointed explanation.
We’ll actually address this as part of the webinar August 4th - the myth that if it’s not rotating it is not correcting. Sign up and check it out: tinyurl.com/y4qqnsen
@@RUPES - I know the quote well, and triggered an industry personality for relaying the message.
Thanks!
Looking forward to it!
Hello Rupes, and thanks for your video about backing plates. I have a LK900E gear driven polisher(using new da - coarse system products), and I want to ask if there is a problem on using the 150mm backing plate with a 180 mm pad, on this polisher. I mean If there is a problem on the result, if it's possible to create haze or ghost effects on edges?
Thank you for watching and posting your question. The LK900E is a completely different type of movement, and it even includes both size backing plates because it can be used with either the 125mm or 150mm setup without causing vibration issues, unlike the larger orbit tools where this could be an issue for balancing.
It is important to note that with the 125mm backing pad you'll see smoother operation due to the reduction in surface contact and drag. The 150mm backing plate, due to the forced rotation of the tool, will tend to 'steer' a little more which can be uncomfortable for some users.
In terms of the actual results on the paint, you should not see any difference between the two backing plate sizes on that specific tool.
I have a question regarding the x-cut system... are these compatible with the LHR15 and LHR21 and if not, is this because of the aggressiveness of the large rotation or another reason? A video going into depth on the x-cut pads would be appreciated failing that an answer on here would suffice.
Keep making great products 👍👍
That is a great topic for a future video Josh. The x-cut sanding discs can be used with any orbital tool, the thing to keep in mind is that the bigger the orbit gets the faster the rate of material removal. So sanding with the 15 or 21 should be done with caution as they will remove material at a very rapid pace.
Hi Jason, recently I bought UNO prime +protect and Zephir gloss but could not find expiry date on the label. Like Carpro products valid for 3 years. May I know how long Rupes products can be kept? I'm a beginner and using Duetto at this moment. Seeking your expert advise. Thank you.
Thanks for watching. Shelf life will depend on a lot of factors, including frequency of use, how/where they are stored, etc. we don’t put a specific date on ours. Shake well before each use, keep the caps closed when not in use, and store away from extreme heat and cold.
What if we replace the counter balance too? I mean assuming I use lhr 21 and would like to go with 5 inch backing plate, what if I change the counter balance on lhr21 with the balance on lhr15? Some companies make this possible with this change. Is the counter balance sizes compatible wtih each other?
By the way I like the Rupes Replies concept, Jason Rose you are a legend :)
Thanks for the comment. The counterbalances are tuned to the orbit as well as pad size, so the eccentric set of an LHR15 is engineered to offset a 15mm orbit. It would not be compatible with a 21mm orbit.
Guys you have published a video that addresses a position that I am currently in. I am in Edinburgh UK and the problem is the 7" diameter pad is rather large for most European sized cars so what I was thinking was swapping backing plates not for faster cut but for more versatility and ease of use in more areas of the car. I hope that makes sense. Tbh I have thought about selling it and purchasing a LHR15 MK3 or Millie. I was going to swap plates first then make a decision from there. Your feedback would be very much appreciated. And thank you for the video. Cheers
Glad we timed this well for you! As the video says we don't recommend pad swaps as it alters the balance and you purchased a RUPES (at least in part) to the balance. There are plenty of machines that will vibrate your wrist out of its socket for less money. Why undo one the key aspects of the tool? The LHR15 is the more popular choice for detailing because it has a pad size and offset that are more conducive to more surfaces on more cars. The LK900E Mille is also another good option. It gives you the option of both sizes (due to substantially smaller orbit) and because of the gear driven movement can be effective at edgework where the 15 and 21 would struggle.
Concerning the new pads coming out with the new polishes. The new pads look significantly thinner than the original. In one CORE video, you mentioned the yellow pad foam is the same foam material. My question then is, what is the weight difference between the two pads. If pad weight is so important for the balance of the machine, is the difference so minute that it doesn't change the balance?
The pads are slightly thinner than the original version, and the difference is actually mostly with the 21mm tool, but don’t forget it isn’t just weight - total mass, pad deflection, and a number of other factors come into play.
@@RUPES sweet! Thanks for the reply
Great contents! You should have more subscribers 👍
Thank you! Make sure you subscribe to the channel!
Would this be a similar problem in reverse? Putting the 6" backing plate on the LHR15?
Yes - the issue works both ways. Both tools are in a very narrow window where balance and performance are maximized. There is a reason no one had an orbit larger than 8mm prior to 2011/2012 when BigFoot came out - it is incredibly difficult and a real feat of engineering to balance such a large orbit.
When I plug my brand new rupes mark3 15 mm in it takes a second for it to power on is that normal it does this brand new out of the box also do you guys do the washer mod?
Agree with Rupes
Where is the best place to get a new backing plate for my Bigfoot MKII 21?
Backing plates can be purchased from your preferred RUPES distributor. The part number you’ll need is 981.321N
Using a 21 with a plate from a15 for years now, no problem so far.
Thanks for your comment. Certainly not saying that is impossible, but that anyone who modifies from the OEM specification should be aware of the impact on the tool and willing to accept the consequences, good or bad, of those changes.
Hello. Will a 6 inch pad work on the backing plate of a rupes model lhr 15 with a backing plate 125 mm?
Depends on where the 6” measurement is taken from. For example, our pads for the LHR15 measure 150mm (6”) at the face and 125mm (5”) on the engagement side.
Hey Jason, how about the washer mod? The washer mod on the Rupes was pioneered by Kevin Brown, one of the most important automotive paint detailers in the world. I am sure you know how important Kevin Brown was to the community. He managed to come up with a cheap and safe method that enable detailers to correct 1500 grit sanding marks using a Porter Cable dual action in a time before Rupes long throw was introduced in North America. He came up with the Kevin Brown Method (KBM), which is to prime the orange lake country or Surbuf pad with M105 and squirting it with water to allow the compound to keep cutting. The result is the ability to remove sanding marks, super deep swirls, without excessive buffer trailers associated with the rotary. This method was not recommended by Meguiar's, Lake Country, or Surbuf, but at the same time the method got the job done without causing damages to paint or the tools or the pads. Kevin Brown's complaint of the Rupes was its inability to spin freely. He demonstrated to me that by adding a washer to the backing plate, it was able to get the job done MUCH faster and allows the diminishing polish to break down much faster, allowing a more refined finish. Like the original Kevin Brown Method, the purpose of the washer mod to improve cutting power, speed, and paint quality, and like the original Kevin Brown Method, was not recommended by the makers of the products associated with the method. I just want to Rupes to make an official statement either endorsing the washer method or to debunk the washer method. This is a topic that I notice Rupes has constantly avoided. I own many long throw polishers from many different manufacturers from Flex and Dewalt because they are free spinning. What has stopped me from buying a Rupes is that it never endorsed the free spinning long throw action that other polishers are able to perform. Thanks.
Thanks for your comments and we, of course, are very familiar with Kevin - he was the very first RUPES distributor in the USA and remains a close personal friend of our team to this day.
As with any modification we do not specifically recommend it. We have made this known for some time, so not sure why you would imply we've avoided it. We've gone so far as to address it very specifically in the 15 vs. 21mm webinar on this channel and with multiple FAQ/technical bulletins. ua-cam.com/video/I4Dy5PLw5Nk/v-deo.html
Ultimately, even if we do not recommend it, we understand that some people will still do it. Just understand that any modification of the tool, if it results in failure or damage, leaves the liability for that at the feet of the person who chooses to modify the tool from its factory specification. No different than modifying a car - if the modification is the direct cause of a failure the warranty associated with it is void.
@@RUPES Thanks. I missed that video
@@RUPES Could you make a video to explain the technical reasons why not to do this washer modification ? Thanks in advance
Cesar Serrano Maybe they wish they had designed it that way themselves and at this point they just want to save face? 😂
@@rustyjeep2469 hahaha exactly 😅
Weight isn’t the real concern. The backing plate weight between the 5” and 6” is the same. There is a big weight difference between the a 5” Rupes MF pad and a 5” Rupes foam pad. The biggest cause for concern is the backing plate and pad DIAMETER. A 6” plate and larger pad will balance the 21mm correctly and take on curves as it should.
It's really a combination of everything. Weight alone is not the only concern, though that seems to be what most people get wrapped up in. The pad drag (impacted by surface area) also has a big influence on this. Ultimately again, it isn't a question of CAN, but SHOULD and if you choose to modify a tool are you willing to accept the consequence of that change - good, bad or otherwise.
Can I put a 6 inch pad on my 5 inch backing plate? I just picked up a Ryobi dual action polisher and the 5 inch backing plate it came with is decent and I don’t want to switch to the 6 inch plate but I have a ton of 6 inch pads and would like to be able to use them.
Not sure we can help you with that. Might check with the manufacturer of that tool.
@@RUPES I’m sure you could seeing whereas it’s kinda common knowledge in your profession, it took me one google search to find out that a larger pad on a smaller plate could get torn up and without the full contact of the plate your job might not come out well. Think you didn’t answer because I didn’t buy Rupes.
Not at all the case. We didn't answer as it is not our place to provide technical advice on tools we do not manufacturer. As an example, our LK900E Mille includes 2 different sized backing plates standard and can run both without issue. Our LHR21 on the other hand is weight mated to a 150mm backing plate and we would strongly discourage changing backing plates. Considering we do not have the specs, engineering, or other information about the tool you're referencing it would be irresponsible of us to make recommendations. We're glad you found the answer to your question!
Please please please reply , I am a newbie to polishing , and I have recently bought a 12mm orbital size da polisher which has 3 inches backing plate , please tell me weather I can upgrade to 5 inches backing plate with the same machine . Please reply ??
Just as explained in the video, the pads and backing plates are an integral part of the balancing of the tool. To change the plates, even if it were physically possible, creates an imbalance that will significantly impact the vibration of the tool and can cause it to fail prematurely.
@@RUPES since I have already purchased the 3 inch back plate da polisher , is it possible to polish the entire car with that mini da ??? Please reply sir, I already subscribed
What’s your thought on “washer mod” in rupes?
It has been covered in other videos, webinars, etc. We do not endorse, condone, or support the washer mod. If you think about it, if it really did improve the performance of our tools don't you think we'd include it?
Im interested to know what Rupes thinks of the washer mod.
We’ve commented in multiple videos and issued technical bulletins about this - we do not condone, endorse, or support modifications including washers or aftermarket backing plates.
@@RUPES Sure. But when the backing plate isn't moving freely (like rupes 15 MK3), it's a huge problem for polishing :) Maybe a good bad machine ? ^^
If you think that it is a “huge problem” we would suggest watching this webinar, specifically myth #5 which starts around the 41 minute point:
ua-cam.com/video/4yDU4CWAISU/v-deo.html
the weight problem mentioned doesn't apply to rotary polishers. It would be nice if Rupes officials say at least a few words about this type of machine and how the modifications affect it from their scientific point of view.
Thank you for your comment. Yes, you are correct. The weight issue is not an issue with rotary because there is no offset, so you are not counter-balancing anything. The main concern with a rotary is never to use a pad larger than it is designed to support. The LH19E should not be used with any backing pad larger than 165mm (6.5 inches).
so you wouldn't recommend the kamikaze backing plate that esoteric is crazy for?
We do not recommend the use of any aftermarket modification to our tools.
Don't do it! the rubber that pushes on the backing plate gets caught and ate up. I had to order a new one. Make sure you put lube on the backing plate! That's how I melted another one.. i went 6in backing on the 5in. Fail. Just got my nano in the mail today! Can't wait to polish tomorrow morning haha.
Thanks for commenting - we actually expand on that in another episode of RUPES Replies
ua-cam.com/video/0NcJjHLZ4AQ/v-deo.html
I cant use those stock long throw rupes... The damn backing plate drags and stalls on the bell housing and messes them up. I would imagine this is the sole reason for people experimenting with plates because they arent familiar with the washer mod. Lol @ Lamborghini of polishers... that saying came from both being made in Italy, not because theyre the best. No matter what i do to my long throw ROs, i can not achieve a vibration if i tried
Where’s the finger point counter?
Grant Hawtree 😂 missed opportunity on our part.
hello love rupes, a great question? I saw several users of rupes in the world and there are several videos where they modify the distance of the baking plate by adding a washer between the backing plate and the machine, making the plate rotate more freely and not jam and cut it better and faster and Do not brake on occasions when polishing a vehicle, does this modification alter the durability of the rupes machine? Thank you very much greetings from Argentina.
Thanks for watching and commenting. RUPES does not endorse or condone modifications to the tool and if a modification results in failure of the tool then any damage is the sole responsibility of the person who performed the modification. The part of your statement about "cutting better and faster" is simply not true. While many people on the internet make the assumption that it does, the fact of the matter is that rotation contributes very little to the overall cutting performance of a large stroke random orbital tool. The orbit does the majority of the work, the rotation promotes a random pattern and helps to keep things cool. This is covered from a scientific, verifiable standpoint, in this portion of our 5 Myths Webinar:
ua-cam.com/video/4yDU4CWAISU/v-deo.html
Currently using a LHR15III. Changed the backing plate from a 5" to a 6", no noticeable change in vibration going from one plate to the other (both plates are from mark III Rupes). It feels ever so slightly smoother with the 5", but its hardly noticeable. Maybe it reduces the lifespan, but personally i feel and see no problem. Hope this helps someone.
This was just a video to say not to do it, because it’s not good for the longevity of the machine. however, it didn’t address the difference in performance, which will be the main reason people click on this video.