When you were talking about the fact that you did not uninstall Dota 2 from your computer, the only thing I could think about was the scene from Lord of the rings when Bilbo tries to hang on to the ring after gandalf asks for it back 😂😂
@@dolod777 I think the major ones were 6.82(reborn), 7.00( added talent trees), 7.22(Aghanim's specter for everyone), 7.32 (Aghanim's shard), 7.33(map expantion), I we might even be able to break it into even smaller eras if we tried, but dota 4 is too low, lol
I played since dota 1 and after a 10 year break I could still basically recognise everything, except for neutral items and talents i suppose. Most heroes worked exactly how I remember. This is the most serious change I've ever seen lol
@@GrubyTolek I think that's the beauty of dota is that even with major patches like these a lot of the heroes still retain their identities and function the same as how they originally did. I feel like not a lot of games can undergo such drastic changes without altering so much of the original identity.
This is something that as a League player, I always envied Dota 2. They actually get changes. In league, the changes are usually like adding 1 jungle camp or adding 1 drake. It creates few new strats but mostly keeps game the same. 90% of heroes have a clear itemization path and role identity that should never be breached. Even if they change items, gameplay stays the same and it does not really give you options, it just changes your powerspike timings. In Dota, it just shakes with meta on a whole different level. Like the addition of agh's shard, giving 80% of heroes a whole ass new ability, That is completely unimaginable in LoL. Or backpack with 3 item slots, or neutral items oh god thats such a cool idea. I'd love to see neutral items in league. I don't even know where the issue is tbh. I just hate how league is balanced. One champ abuses an item, so they nerf the item, gutting 15 other champions that need the item to be relevant. But at the same time dota isnt flawless. Swen being strong for like 2 years isnt a win either
The issue might be that in league, every matchup is playeable, thus if one champion is broken, it's really hard to counter if the player is on equal/better skill level. In dota you can just counterpick/itemize in a way that just neutralizes the manace
It's in the inherent design philosophy of the game. In league, there are several aspects that make balance such a razor-thin wire in contrast to dota: 1) League inherently has less mechanics (when I say mechanics I mean stuff like high-ground vs low-ground, day-night cycle, neutral items, illusion based heroes, etc. etc.), meaning champions in League have fewer niches to be balanced around. For example, Nightstalker in dota is balanced around the day-night cycle which simply doesn't exist in League. 2) Champions are designed to fit a certain class archetype, meaning item build diversity is reduced and team comp diversity is reduced. In dota, draft counters are more obvious such as Slardar's ult providing true sight over a target which counters many heroes that like to go invisible. 3) Simplified items; League does not like strong unique items especially with actives on them. Dota has these items which can drastically change the way heroes play and are used to more heavily counter-build opponents. E.g. If Rikki can't go invisible because of Slardar's ult, he can purchase any number of items that provide him a dispel (self-cleanse) so that he can remove the true sight. There's a lot more than this, but these are some of the fundamental aspects that make League not adaptable to change. It's what shoehorns league into a 1-1-1-2 lane composition. It's what makes League so snowbally. It's what makes a stale pro-meta where there's very few deaths, very little action, and the game is decided by 1 teamfight that let's the enemy push down 3 turrets and nexus. And the few times League was able to innovate their macro, what happened? Master Yi + Taric funneling was removed. Support items and jungle smite have been heavily restricted. Janna top was nerfed. Small things that people were able to abuse just completely broke League as a game because there's so little choice of counterplay in any drafting or itemization options offered by League.
On the flipside, you can quit League and come back with most of your knowledge and skills intact, I can guarantee the complexity-creep from all these big updates does drive new players away, MOBAs were always complex but the simplicity of '4 abilities and 6 item slots' helped form a playerbase back in the day.
@@SeaHorseOfUA-cam It does. Accessibility is definitely League's strength, though at times I feel like Riot could do with leaning a bit more to the complexity side of things. They already have a very established and loyal fanbase and a lot of players are craving for more. TFT and Arena are just two things they managed to capitalize on in the entirety of League's lifespan.
Icefrog was just like "fuck it we ball," stuck his head in a pile of coke and came up with this patch. The stuff in this patch is absolutely wild and dota has imo never been more fun.
Yeap. Also valve isn't afraid to experiment. Worst case they can roll back the update. And even if players dont return they still got that steam money, they wont be in any hurt whatsoever.
@@GrubbyTalks Yeah, i nolifed last 2 days, played like 7 or 8 games (i have 3 kids, wife and my own business xD) after patch dropped. Havent played since... Like 2 years
valve has a history of shaking up dota 2 from time to time. it may be hard to believe but the talent tree did not exist for a long time up until 2016 i think. then some years later they introduce the neutral items update. then after that the aghs shard. we did not even have backpack slots. or even TP slots. not to mention the team only gets 1 courier. other devs will be happy to keep their product as is as long as it's bringing them money. so it's very refreshing to actually see devs care about the game. and guide it to directions that we did not even though possible to take.
aghs also used to just numerically buff a select few heroes ults and iirc not anything else. Honestly this is what games as a service should be, not just maintenance but a live growing game, this is the kind of thing that makes you wish you were still a kid and actually had time to invest in a game. Yeah as with any change you'll turn some people off but imo it's better to die evolving that dwindle in stagnation.
You used to be required to buy couriers. First it became a thing in low level pubs that people use chicken couriers at all, then the meta became only 1 guy buys the chicken for everyone. You could also use items from the courier, dagon crow became a pubstomping thing. At one point I think Valve even supported that by giving flying couriers mana at base.
My brother is one of those players that doesn’t read patch notes. He also is stuck in a 2015 era mindset. The type that sees a Zeus with manta and assumes he’s griefing. He’s an average redditor who doesn’t use it lol
The best part about Dota was the learning phase. Nothing can ever match that. This is probably why your dota stream blew up so much. People got to relive that feeling (Sunsfan said so too). And this is exactly what these HUGE updates try to acheive to some extent. All dota players are addicted to this feeling. Especially when they completely rework the map, it totally feels like your first game of dota. You keep bumping into dead ends, and don't know where the camps are. It's a magical experience re-learning the map.
9:47 there is a great quote by the guy who is on the design team for magic the gathering something along the lines of "dont be afraid to challenge your players, be afraid to bore them"
@@Thalaranthey i dont see it as complaing, i see it like sorta natural evolution Im glad dota2 is on that track and hope it will compel lol to change more and maybe we get new era of better mmos
1:26 i remember where they brought out the sand terrain and it looked great. I also remember where it was only for the battlepass afterwards and not permanent item anymore. What a scummy move :D
Big patches also encourage old players to come back and play at (almost) the same level with the regulars. Dota already has big enough player pool (including those who have quit) to sustain itself for a long time.
Not everyone liked the talent trees. We lost the attribute bonuses that were part of the builds. The talents made it easier to balance the hero scalings. With this one, most of the scaling of passive ablities is lost. It's the same type of change as the talents and there will be a % of players that don't like it. The narrative is that they add more RNG amd decrease skill options, so player skills are more limited to APM vs inovative strategies. But sure, let them try and convince us otherwise.
@@TheUnkow the talents do make strategies more innovative, no? That's how you innovate: give more options. I think you just don't like that your builds are counterable. I think this is how Dota 2 should be balanced.
@@zacsubach What can you pick on level 1? Skill 1, 2 or 3 ... What could you pick on level 1 before? Skill 1, 2, 3 or Attribute bonus. The branches of decision were far and wide with those bonuses, people could ignore bad skills or skills that weren't fit for their build and get +10 to stats (ultimate orb). Leshrac without lightning, ShadowFiend without first skill, Weaver without the useless spiders, Phantom Assassin was a mennace without the first skill (they had to make the dagger overpowerred so people would actually start picking it), Chaos Knight with only level 1 stun (more stats were amazing on illusions), Luna without the first skill ... yes, there is a reason they linked the first skill to the ulti ... because she didn't need it otherwise, except for maybe the interupt (if it had one) ... I can go on and on, some builds as I say were not too common, but were actually viable. The talents were an interesting change, eye catching yes, but what it made is, it gave the illusion of diversity where the diversity is visual, while the gameplay strategical opportunities were lowered.
As to what he said in the beginning of the video: I think Valve and the developers should be getting so much more praise for what they are doing. They discontinued the Battle Pass at arguably the highest point, when it made them tens to hundreds of millions of dollars every year (yes, the last Battle Passes generated less prizepool, but that was because Valve already started reducing the content and the runtime of the Battle Passes). And they did, because they felt like they couldn't focus on developing the game. And they held their word. The updates in the last two years, 7.34 - 7.36, are more worthy of being called a sequel to Dota 2, then Overwatch 2 was to Overwatch 1. Valve pretty much did the reverse of what every other game publisher is doing since the last 5 years with all the GAASes. Valve put their customers first once again, just how they have been doing it with Steam for all those years. There are certainly benefits to a company being privatly owned, and not having shitty Investors like Tencent. And to everyone having been impacient at Crownfall Act 1: LET THEM COOK.
HAH! I just brought the kids to bed, and while I was waiting for them to fall asleep I was thinking "I wonder if Grubby is gona mention the big Dota patch at all, I would love to hear his thoughts" and then I open youtube and this shows up. I LOVE IT! I LOVE YOU!!
Played DOTA on and off since the very first version by Eul in Reign of Chaos. I've been quick to say that League of Legends and DOTA2 were always good control groups for each other because of their adherence to their own priorities for player choices. Adding LoL passives and flex-pick abilities seems like an interesting experiment for DOTA going forward, and I'm actually kind of happy to see some of the effects being as bonkers as some of the stuff from back in the day when Kegsta, Sithis and company were managing DOTA Allstars. (the pre-Icefrog days)
I haven't played dota since maybe 2014. I just got back into wc3 thanks to your tierlists, which i always wanted to get into but mostly played bots and thought the game was dead. I tried to get back into dota last year but so much had changed it just made my miss 2014 dota. I still got a lot of nostalgia watching one dota game from you. But anything i would get from dota im getting from wc3 now. I just miss it
the facets are incredible, some heroes have new identities thanks to facets making new playstyles, some are stupidly bad lmao; it's really like when talents were first released hopefully given some time the facet selection will be as refined as talents
What's nice about the Crownfall event (following a similar structure to some of the old battlepass challenges) is that it doesn't require you to win in order to progress anymore, which was one of the reasons I ended up giving up on the Battle Passes as it was contributing heavily to the toxicity around the tournament seasons.
I see Grubby talking about Dota 2, I like and subscribe. Good to see you after so long (I quit Twitch and haven't been able to follow you since for a while). Best of luck and I hope you come back some day
Its amazing seeing that you still have love for the game. Hope one day u pop back for a game or two maybe witb friends or what not. Who altho want to win are also super open to try funky strats and stuff. But all the best in everything you do
Since you wanted to experiment with new heroes, and were, unfortunately, getting flamed by some people, this is the best time to get back, Grubby. Now, everyone is experimenting, and learning, and you can do what you love the most with getting flamed for it.
Look at this dude, i remember the day where grubby is asking so much question when first playing it, and know dude is explaining the entire history of the game
Welcome back (well almost xD) to Dota 3 Grubby!! Always love your voice and the pace, keep it up man, hope that I'll able to see you play dota again :D
1:08:46 never thought I'd see Big Bad Voodoo finally get implemented to DotA in this manner looking forward for Far Sight, Avatar of Vengeance, Animate Dead, and Pocket Factory skill ports to DotA 2
really surprising to hear the bigger map was only added last year I only just got into dota and the bigger map with more farm is maybe my favourite part
I like the new systems with starter skills. I think it's better than how it it implemented in HotS. It's not a hit-or-miss like with certain ultimates, but a normal skill that you can play around in many ways.
So glad to see this. I followed your dota path. And a bit of Dune. Not rly unto wc3 or darksouls. These patches are amazing at bringing back players. There are a lot of ppl rn who hadn't played in months.
I'm kind of sad the Dota 2 community is so rancid that its making you salty. Im glad you're self aware enough to quit streaming Dota 2 as to not compromise your own positivity.
It isnt that bad compared to numerous similar games. Grubby is just insanely sensitive to criticism apparently. Why are there dozens of moba streamers?
@@ppensen Nope, Dota is actually genuinely one of the worst communities in mainstream competitive games. You may talk about Valo or LoL toxicity but since Dota is more complex, not everyone sees the game the same way. This means that sometimes when a pro player does something supposedly efficient, to the untrained eye they are griefing and proceeds to talk trash towards the streamer. This is especially worse for someone that is newer to the game since there are too many different people giving their own perspective on how to play the game and it is difficult to understand what is actually right or wrong. A good example is OG's supposed Ti 8 "fluke" because despite winning ti 8, at the time some people did not think of it as legitimate, that is toxic in another level. Also put into perspective that Grubby chooses to try to be reasonable to his viewers, the reality is most dota internet trolls refuse to be reasonable and choose to just talk trash as first instinct and encourages Grubby to stop playing the game because of this elitist mindset.
@@hbk6917 @hbk6917 that is the worst argument ive heard....some OG haters claim they won in a flukey way! Wow who would have guessed?! Guess what, fans of any team dislike when other teams win in all games and even mainstream sport eg football fans say X team was flukey to win the title etc....this is pathetic. Grubby could just man up and ignore negative comments like everyone does in every game. Look at his elden ring videos are spammed with people complaining about tactics used, wrong weapon, dont go there, dont do that etc ......"elitist thinking" is in everything dont be ridiculous.
@@ppensen I think you don't understand, the case of OG with ti 8 winning was an actual popular opinion at the time not just a small minority. But sure lets use another example In games where you are against Phantom Assassin, its quite normal to think that the carry should build MKB to counter PA, sometimes yatoro, rtz, watson, and other carry players would not build MKB and would just constantly shit talk to player for not buying the item when in reality there are just many other items to consider for ur own mana regen, farming speed, survivability and etc. In League, item builds are pretty standard so not much people talks shit for that, CS:GO and Valorant, buying util and using util is normal. Everything is streamlined except for dota since its all situational. And this is the common cause for dota players thinking they are "better" than pro players and streamers and therefore constantly spouts negative comments for their own opinion. This is where the whole elitism and toxicity originates from dota players. But if u still think it is equal to every other game, then yeah that's ur opinion and I'm just here trying to show u my perspective. If you fail to see this perspective then there's no point in arguing further.
@@ppensen Deny it or not but Dota 2 is definitely have one if not the most toxic community ever for a fact that the skill ceiling in Dota 2 is so high compare to others game that the players Ego are so high too. It is always this way since before. Playing since release and nothing change on the community and probably never will. Most unwelcome community too with beginners.
I'm glad that DotA still gets big updates, but I think the current development pattern sucks because they add features and never go back to re-evaluate whether a newly added feature was actually good for the game. They just add more and more features, and they double down on all of them, even the bad ones. Most of the additions are good, but some are definitely bad, and there are getting to be too many terrible design decisions in the game for any amount of new content to bring me back to the game.
I think grubby uses warcraft 3 as a basis for his arguments. I mean he is mostly right, but I think that there are different variables to take into consideration when pleasing fans. warcraft has an old base of players, if they shook things up (which they tried with reforge and is i think the main reason grubby fears change in this case) to attract new players they would probably have more customers and a better game overall, with more units, more races, more strategies. the real reason people are not really coming back to wc3 is the lack of novelty, which even balance patches can't truly simulate
You might be right. I do see many things through a WC3 lens. The waves of returning DOTA2 players because of novel things cannot be underestimated, it seems
@@GrubbyTalks it's exciting, and it shakes up the meta, allows new pros to arise, those that are quick to adapt and experiment, instead of those who have fine tuned everything perfectly to the dot. Skill can be expressed in many ways and finding creative strategies (with just enough skill) will always be more interesting to me than a tried and tested strategy that requires perfect execution. This dota patch shakes things up, allows more expression of different skills and creativity. Sure it is bound by what the devs decide to give, but in the next few weeks im sure people will find multiple ways to break it and i'm here for it (when you have competent devs, this is the type of change you actually want to see).
@@GrubbyTalks add to that that some of the returning players are older, have mellowed and not really as heavily invested and just want to have fun with the new toys that said, it will only be some time before the salt accumulates and push them away again, such is the doto patch life cycle
Glad to see you touching on the Dota new patch, Grubby. While I think this is an absolute win for Dota, i cant help but feel that some innates/facets feel halfbaked compared to others. Dawnbreaker's is amazing, while Weaver got smth he already had, which you already invest in at lvl 2 or Alchemist gets 250 g at the start of the match. Some of those concepts can potentially set up a or win fights fight if used right..while others are just "hey..the release date is coming up and we need an innate for this hero. --- lets just give it smth he already has and is usefull for the first 5 mins of the game" I hope they eventually rework all of these to be unique.
I've left dota nearly a decade years ago but I'm still hyped by every big patch or new hero they drop. It's amazing how much firetoad and valve can push the game and make it fresh again and again for 20 years.
So refreshing to see someone flip out like this over a big patch drop. This is pretty much normal for old dota players at this point. I've been playing since over a decade from the dota 1 days. Started from 2k MMR and peaked at 8.5k MMR. Now I work so I can only play sometimes, so I just watch dota more to try and fill the gap of playing. Watching grubby start new and climb the ranks reminded me of myself back in the day. 😶🌫️
Saying that the HD2 situation was mostly a Dev issue and partially a Publisher issue is getting it backwards and really made me rethink how often I want to listen to Grubby when he talks about Game Studios
Can I find vods of your first streams playing dota? I'm getting into the game right now myself so I'd like see how you were dealing with some challenges as a new player.
one of the best ways to play dota 2 is to go into settings and disable all communication, sad but true... players can communicate everything they need in a low to mid ranked pub game with the chat wheels and alt/ctrl+alt signals, valve just needs to add some more specified options for the chat wheel and then disabling the comms from random people you pub with can become the norm.
I think Valve has invented a new business model: Instead of making a $70 AAA game, or making a pay-to-win game, or a subscription-based game, they made a F2P game, where players spend money once a year. Like Grubby talked in one of the other videos, exploring and figuring out the game is a part of the fun, Valve makes sure there's something new to explore every year (even people that like Lore get an update). And it creates a huge info field, that pulls old player base back, as well as the new players - it's easier to jump into the game when the meta is undeveloped(If you hear there are multi-million dollar tournaments for 14+ years, and devs drop game-changing updates, you will try it at some point).
Valve probably thinking "Player base? Hah! Once you go DOtA you never go nah" 10k game time and still thumbs down in DOtA2 but still playing up to 16k, while still holding same grudges, we knew people like that, maybe "Nobody quits DOtA, they just took extended break" is true. Let's face it, those who play DOtA2 loves to get butthurt, because the illusion of applying same pain and agone towards another player is too enticing to let go. I could be wrong, but I guess I got a couple percent of my facts right.
It's a conspiracy to bring back grubby!
When you were talking about the fact that you did not uninstall Dota 2 from your computer, the only thing I could think about was the scene from Lord of the rings when Bilbo tries to hang on to the ring after gandalf asks for it back 😂😂
Grubbo.... the Dota is still in your PCoket.
@@GrubbyTalks 😆✌️
@@GrubbyTalks we are sharing the same problem, can't bring myself to uninstall it lmao
First time? we are probably playing dota 6 right now
Haha
Probably 4. Number 3 was reborn
@@dolod777 I think the major ones were 6.82(reborn), 7.00( added talent trees), 7.22(Aghanim's specter for everyone), 7.32 (Aghanim's shard), 7.33(map expantion), I we might even be able to break it into even smaller eras if we tried, but dota 4 is too low, lol
I played since dota 1 and after a 10 year break I could still basically recognise everything, except for neutral items and talents i suppose. Most heroes worked exactly how I remember. This is the most serious change I've ever seen lol
@@GrubyTolek I think that's the beauty of dota is that even with major patches like these a lot of the heroes still retain their identities and function the same as how they originally did. I feel like not a lot of games can undergo such drastic changes without altering so much of the original identity.
This is something that as a League player, I always envied Dota 2. They actually get changes. In league, the changes are usually like adding 1 jungle camp or adding 1 drake. It creates few new strats but mostly keeps game the same. 90% of heroes have a clear itemization path and role identity that should never be breached. Even if they change items, gameplay stays the same and it does not really give you options, it just changes your powerspike timings.
In Dota, it just shakes with meta on a whole different level. Like the addition of agh's shard, giving 80% of heroes a whole ass new ability, That is completely unimaginable in LoL. Or backpack with 3 item slots, or neutral items oh god thats such a cool idea. I'd love to see neutral items in league.
I don't even know where the issue is tbh. I just hate how league is balanced. One champ abuses an item, so they nerf the item, gutting 15 other champions that need the item to be relevant. But at the same time dota isnt flawless. Swen being strong for like 2 years isnt a win either
The issue might be that in league, every matchup is playeable, thus if one champion is broken, it's really hard to counter if the player is on equal/better skill level. In dota you can just counterpick/itemize in a way that just neutralizes the manace
*sven laugh*
It's in the inherent design philosophy of the game. In league, there are several aspects that make balance such a razor-thin wire in contrast to dota:
1) League inherently has less mechanics (when I say mechanics I mean stuff like high-ground vs low-ground, day-night cycle, neutral items, illusion based heroes, etc. etc.), meaning champions in League have fewer niches to be balanced around. For example, Nightstalker in dota is balanced around the day-night cycle which simply doesn't exist in League.
2) Champions are designed to fit a certain class archetype, meaning item build diversity is reduced and team comp diversity is reduced. In dota, draft counters are more obvious such as Slardar's ult providing true sight over a target which counters many heroes that like to go invisible.
3) Simplified items; League does not like strong unique items especially with actives on them. Dota has these items which can drastically change the way heroes play and are used to more heavily counter-build opponents. E.g. If Rikki can't go invisible because of Slardar's ult, he can purchase any number of items that provide him a dispel (self-cleanse) so that he can remove the true sight.
There's a lot more than this, but these are some of the fundamental aspects that make League not adaptable to change. It's what shoehorns league into a 1-1-1-2 lane composition. It's what makes League so snowbally. It's what makes a stale pro-meta where there's very few deaths, very little action, and the game is decided by 1 teamfight that let's the enemy push down 3 turrets and nexus.
And the few times League was able to innovate their macro, what happened? Master Yi + Taric funneling was removed. Support items and jungle smite have been heavily restricted. Janna top was nerfed. Small things that people were able to abuse just completely broke League as a game because there's so little choice of counterplay in any drafting or itemization options offered by League.
On the flipside, you can quit League and come back with most of your knowledge and skills intact, I can guarantee the complexity-creep from all these big updates does drive new players away, MOBAs were always complex but the simplicity of '4 abilities and 6 item slots' helped form a playerbase back in the day.
@@SeaHorseOfUA-cam It does. Accessibility is definitely League's strength, though at times I feel like Riot could do with leaning a bit more to the complexity side of things. They already have a very established and loyal fanbase and a lot of players are craving for more. TFT and Arena are just two things they managed to capitalize on in the entirety of League's lifespan.
Icefrog was just like "fuck it we ball," stuck his head in a pile of coke and came up with this patch. The stuff in this patch is absolutely wild and dota has imo never been more fun.
"10 hours or more" it indeed took Purge just over 11 hours to go through the whole patch.
almost 12 hours
When Grubby said about "some people doing over 10 hours videos" I immediately thought about Purge
I know what video I'm about to watch :)
It's great to see developers actually doing what they think would be cool. At least this is what it seems like to me.
And I love it! All of the people complaining never played dota for over a year 😂
Yeap. Also valve isn't afraid to experiment. Worst case they can roll back the update. And even if players dont return they still got that steam money, they wont be in any hurt whatsoever.
This.
You don't seem to understand Dota players. They quit when the game gets stale and come back when huge patches drop.
That makes a lot of sense!
@@GrubbyTalks Yeah, i nolifed last 2 days, played like 7 or 8 games (i have 3 kids, wife and my own business xD) after patch dropped. Havent played since... Like 2 years
I played a few games on the weekends and then dont olay for months 🥲@@Thalaranthey
My friend list is filled with people playing now.
Or the oposite
That facets update will make drafting a nightmare for coaches/drafters. This is gonna make the pro DotA scene really exciting
valve has a history of shaking up dota 2 from time to time. it may be hard to believe but the talent tree did not exist for a long time up until 2016 i think. then some years later they introduce the neutral items update. then after that the aghs shard. we did not even have backpack slots. or even TP slots. not to mention the team only gets 1 courier. other devs will be happy to keep their product as is as long as it's bringing them money. so it's very refreshing to actually see devs care about the game. and guide it to directions that we did not even though possible to take.
aghs also used to just numerically buff a select few heroes ults and iirc not anything else. Honestly this is what games as a service should be, not just maintenance but a live growing game, this is the kind of thing that makes you wish you were still a kid and actually had time to invest in a game.
Yeah as with any change you'll turn some people off but imo it's better to die evolving that dwindle in stagnation.
You used to be required to buy couriers. First it became a thing in low level pubs that people use chicken couriers at all, then the meta became only 1 guy buys the chicken for everyone. You could also use items from the courier, dagon crow became a pubstomping thing. At one point I think Valve even supported that by giving flying couriers mana at base.
@@lagg1e oh yeah i vaguely remember a courier using pipe and cycloning people with euls.
My brother is one of those players that doesn’t read patch notes. He also is stuck in a 2015 era mindset. The type that sees a Zeus with manta and assumes he’s griefing. He’s an average redditor who doesn’t use it lol
That's really interesting lol.. don't you tell him? That the world has changed
@@GrubbyTalks It's funnier to see his live reaction.
Zeus uses manta now??
Ye, arc lightning every auto with shard that applies on illu. I would buy 6 manta on Zeus if possible.. It feels so good to hit those autos.
@@OfekAzulay gives him the ability to farm faster and push waves with the shard + illusions combo
The best part about Dota was the learning phase. Nothing can ever match that. This is probably why your dota stream blew up so much. People got to relive that feeling (Sunsfan said so too). And this is exactly what these HUGE updates try to acheive to some extent. All dota players are addicted to this feeling. Especially when they completely rework the map, it totally feels like your first game of dota. You keep bumping into dead ends, and don't know where the camps are. It's a magical experience re-learning the map.
9:47 there is a great quote by the guy who is on the design team for magic the gathering
something along the lines of "dont be afraid to challenge your players, be afraid to bore them"
@Grubby, i think you and us need the A to Z series again. 😂😁
Last big change was even bigger imho, they've a history of making these absolutely massive changes once in a while
Welcome to Heroes of the Dota 2
More like Heroes of legends 2 with the new passives
Och hush you complainers. Copying hood parts about other games with new spin is literally the best thing they could do. Also patch is SUPER fun
@@Thalaranthey i dont see it as complaing, i see it like sorta natural evolution
Im glad dota2 is on that track and hope it will compel lol to change more and maybe we get new era of better mmos
Heroes of the Legendry NewDotA 2 if we implement much more personas that barely recognize the base character like Heroes of Newerth
1:26 i remember where they brought out the sand terrain and it looked great.
I also remember where it was only for the battlepass afterwards and not permanent item anymore. What a scummy move :D
They are doing the opposite of EA and Ubisoft: drop a whole new game worth of content but for free and u don't get all your cosmetics / grind reset.
Big patches also encourage old players to come back and play at (almost) the same level with the regulars.
Dota already has big enough player pool (including those who have quit) to sustain itself for a long time.
You don't know how jaw dropping was when they released the talent trees i never thought we will have the same experience all over again.
Not everyone liked the talent trees.
We lost the attribute bonuses that were part of the builds.
The talents made it easier to balance the hero scalings.
With this one, most of the scaling of passive ablities is lost. It's the same type of change as the talents and there will be a % of players that don't like it.
The narrative is that they add more RNG amd decrease skill options, so player skills are more limited to APM vs inovative strategies.
But sure, let them try and convince us otherwise.
@@TheUnkowhow do they add rng
@@TheUnkow the talents do make strategies more innovative, no? That's how you innovate: give more options. I think you just don't like that your builds are counterable. I think this is how Dota 2 should be balanced.
@@zacsubach What can you pick on level 1?
Skill 1, 2 or 3 ...
What could you pick on level 1 before?
Skill 1, 2, 3 or Attribute bonus.
The branches of decision were far and wide with those bonuses, people could ignore bad skills or skills that weren't fit for their build and get +10 to stats (ultimate orb).
Leshrac without lightning, ShadowFiend without first skill, Weaver without the useless spiders, Phantom Assassin was a mennace without the first skill (they had to make the dagger overpowerred so people would actually start picking it), Chaos Knight with only level 1 stun (more stats were amazing on illusions), Luna without the first skill ... yes, there is a reason they linked the first skill to the ulti ... because she didn't need it otherwise, except for maybe the interupt (if it had one) ... I can go on and on, some builds as I say were not too common, but were actually viable.
The talents were an interesting change, eye catching yes, but what it made is, it gave the illusion of diversity where the diversity is visual, while the gameplay strategical opportunities were lowered.
@@TheUnkow you can still pick atributes level 1
no one does that ever
As to what he said in the beginning of the video: I think Valve and the developers should be getting so much more praise for what they are doing.
They discontinued the Battle Pass at arguably the highest point, when it made them tens to hundreds of millions of dollars every year (yes, the last Battle Passes generated less prizepool, but that was because Valve already started reducing the content and the runtime of the Battle Passes).
And they did, because they felt like they couldn't focus on developing the game. And they held their word. The updates in the last two years, 7.34 - 7.36, are more worthy of being called a sequel to Dota 2, then Overwatch 2 was to Overwatch 1.
Valve pretty much did the reverse of what every other game publisher is doing since the last 5 years with all the GAASes. Valve put their customers first once again, just how they have been doing it with Steam for all those years.
There are certainly benefits to a company being privatly owned, and not having shitty Investors like Tencent.
And to everyone having been impacient at Crownfall Act 1: LET THEM COOK.
I love when Grubby talks about Dota, I hope he continues to visit it from time to time.
HAH! I just brought the kids to bed, and while I was waiting for them to fall asleep I was thinking "I wonder if Grubby is gona mention the big Dota patch at all, I would love to hear his thoughts" and then I open youtube and this shows up. I LOVE IT! I LOVE YOU!!
Someday Grubby will join this hell hole again with us !
at every big patch i fear the changes but then you understand that everyone gets to start from 0 again and it's great!
I love how the thumbnail is literally his face when watching the Golems grow extra large lol
This video is a treat, Grubby. As a big dota fan since wc3 and because of it, having you at dota feels very at home. Thank you.
He used to play but quit due to toxicity.
My favorite change is that Grubby is talking about Dota again.
He is too pussy for dota community. Criticism is "toxic' apparently so he sticks to solo games like elden ring now
Played DOTA on and off since the very first version by Eul in Reign of Chaos.
I've been quick to say that League of Legends and DOTA2 were always good control groups for each other because of their adherence to their own priorities for player choices. Adding LoL passives and flex-pick abilities seems like an interesting experiment for DOTA going forward, and I'm actually kind of happy to see some of the effects being as bonkers as some of the stuff from back in the day when Kegsta, Sithis and company were managing DOTA Allstars. (the pre-Icefrog days)
I haven't played dota since maybe 2014. I just got back into wc3 thanks to your tierlists, which i always wanted to get into but mostly played bots and thought the game was dead.
I tried to get back into dota last year but so much had changed it just made my miss 2014 dota. I still got a lot of nostalgia watching one dota game from you. But anything i would get from dota im getting from wc3 now. I just miss it
the facets are incredible, some heroes have new identities thanks to facets making new playstyles, some are stupidly bad lmao; it's really like when talents were first released hopefully given some time the facet selection will be as refined as talents
Reverse reverse polarity instantly crosses my mond 😂😂😂
I love grubby's reactions in this video. I had a very similar feeling when reading these patch notes :D
What's nice about the Crownfall event (following a similar structure to some of the old battlepass challenges) is that it doesn't require you to win in order to progress anymore, which was one of the reasons I ended up giving up on the Battle Passes as it was contributing heavily to the toxicity around the tournament seasons.
Can't wait for the new channel, GrubbyGrows
I see Grubby talking about Dota 2, I like and subscribe. Good to see you after so long (I quit Twitch and haven't been able to follow you since for a while). Best of luck and I hope you come back some day
Welcome back grubby good to see you back to dota 2
Its amazing seeing that you still have love for the game. Hope one day u pop back for a game or two maybe witb friends or what not. Who altho want to win are also super open to try funky strats and stuff. But all the best in everything you do
Since you wanted to experiment with new heroes, and were, unfortunately, getting flamed by some people, this is the best time to get back, Grubby.
Now, everyone is experimenting, and learning, and you can do what you love the most with getting flamed for it.
Don't tempt me Nabil
grubby...how long shall we wait for your goated return into Dota?
Stop trying to goad him into jumping back into this toxic cesspool.
@@HighLanderPonyYT not all people are toxic like you. We just miss him making dota content like this.
@@HighLanderPonyYT stop being toxic by telling people what to do.
@@moebino2685 stop being toxic by telling commentors what to do. Boo hoooo
@@hypno5690 grow up
I played one game like 2 days ago and it made me pick between 2 new things (facets) for Axe and i was like oh thats new
I love that Oracle just never changes.
I laughed out loud when I read his innate was predicting the rune spawn side
8:14 based editor
You get back to dota and id absolutely sub to watch it!!
Look at this dude, i remember the day where grubby is asking so much question when first playing it, and know dude is explaining the entire history of the game
Haven't had time to catch the stream in a while, but have been thoroughly enjoying all of your YT videos!
33:41
Death Prohpet: "Silence peasant!"
Silencer: "No you shut up!"
This was fun video, thank You Grubby!
Welcome back (well almost xD) to Dota 3 Grubby!! Always love your voice and the pace, keep it up man, hope that I'll able to see you play dota again :D
1:08:46 never thought I'd see Big Bad Voodoo finally get implemented to DotA in this manner
looking forward for Far Sight, Avatar of Vengeance, Animate Dead, and Pocket Factory skill ports to DotA 2
Far Sight is already a thing! But it’s locked behind a tier 5 neutral item, the Seer Stone, which cannot be found before 60 mins game time.
I've been playing Dota since 2006 and so many things have changed. I'm pretty happy Valve keeps changing things up.
never played dota but i MUST hear grubby react
I've been playing Dota since 2008 and this kind of patch size isn't really that impressive anymore 😂
Why not
Nice vid grubby, glad to see you again in d2
Was fun seeing your reaction on changes
really surprising to hear the bigger map was only added last year
I only just got into dota and the bigger map with more farm is maybe my favourite part
44:54 I'd love to see your garden too, Grubby! 🥺
I like the new systems with starter skills. I think it's better than how it it implemented in HotS. It's not a hit-or-miss like with certain ultimates, but a normal skill that you can play around in many ways.
So glad to see this. I followed your dota path. And a bit of Dune. Not rly unto wc3 or darksouls. These patches are amazing at bringing back players. There are a lot of ppl rn who hadn't played in months.
Its 4 am in the morning .. i guess i wount sleep till 6 haha thanks grubs for the video . Hope u come back again sometime
I like how valve accept the fact games will never be truly balance to pros and casuals and just let everything be broken the way it should be :D
dota should always be fun games..good to see you back
fun for new player
I'm waiting for dota 8.00 where they add a jungle role and each team has 6 people, there's 2 Roshan, and unlockable 8 slot items
that would be great so my friend don't need to coach party anymore and just watch us the whole time XD
I'm kind of sad the Dota 2 community is so rancid that its making you salty. Im glad you're self aware enough to quit streaming Dota 2 as to not compromise your own positivity.
It isnt that bad compared to numerous similar games. Grubby is just insanely sensitive to criticism apparently. Why are there dozens of moba streamers?
@@ppensen Nope, Dota is actually genuinely one of the worst communities in mainstream competitive games. You may talk about Valo or LoL toxicity but since Dota is more complex, not everyone sees the game the same way. This means that sometimes when a pro player does something supposedly efficient, to the untrained eye they are griefing and proceeds to talk trash towards the streamer. This is especially worse for someone that is newer to the game since there are too many different people giving their own perspective on how to play the game and it is difficult to understand what is actually right or wrong.
A good example is OG's supposed Ti 8 "fluke" because despite winning ti 8, at the time some people did not think of it as legitimate, that is toxic in another level. Also put into perspective that Grubby chooses to try to be reasonable to his viewers, the reality is most dota internet trolls refuse to be reasonable and choose to just talk trash as first instinct and encourages Grubby to stop playing the game because of this elitist mindset.
@@hbk6917 @hbk6917 that is the worst argument ive heard....some OG haters claim they won in a flukey way! Wow who would have guessed?! Guess what, fans of any team dislike when other teams win in all games and even mainstream sport eg football fans say X team was flukey to win the title etc....this is pathetic.
Grubby could just man up and ignore negative comments like everyone does in every game. Look at his elden ring videos are spammed with people complaining about tactics used, wrong weapon, dont go there, dont do that etc ......"elitist thinking" is in everything dont be ridiculous.
@@ppensen I think you don't understand, the case of OG with ti 8 winning was an actual popular opinion at the time not just a small minority. But sure lets use another example
In games where you are against Phantom Assassin, its quite normal to think that the carry should build MKB to counter PA, sometimes yatoro, rtz, watson, and other carry players would not build MKB and would just constantly shit talk to player for not buying the item when in reality there are just many other items to consider for ur own mana regen, farming speed, survivability and etc. In League, item builds are pretty standard so not much people talks shit for that, CS:GO and Valorant, buying util and using util is normal. Everything is streamlined except for dota since its all situational. And this is the common cause for dota players thinking they are "better" than pro players and streamers and therefore constantly spouts negative comments for their own opinion. This is where the whole elitism and toxicity originates from dota players. But if u still think it is equal to every other game, then yeah that's ur opinion and I'm just here trying to show u my perspective.
If you fail to see this perspective then there's no point in arguing further.
@@ppensen Deny it or not but Dota 2 is definitely have one if not the most toxic community ever for a fact that the skill ceiling in Dota 2 is so high compare to others game that the players Ego are so high too. It is always this way since before. Playing since release and nothing change on the community and probably never will. Most unwelcome community too with beginners.
Next update: You can build armies now lmfao
New Journey (7.00) was Dota 3
New Frontiers (7.33) was Dota 4
Now 7.36 is basically Dota 5.
- From someone with 9000 hours.
as someone that has been playing since 2013: crazy how much grubby knows about the game.
Facets are kinda similar to HotS where you choose your ability evolution with the talents
This update is so much fun! Praise to Grubby and praise to Doto! \o/ 🙂
15:22 such damage control, you can feel weakness here in grubby
Grubby back to dota 2??? POGGERS
I'm glad that DotA still gets big updates, but I think the current development pattern sucks because they add features and never go back to re-evaluate whether a newly added feature was actually good for the game. They just add more and more features, and they double down on all of them, even the bad ones. Most of the additions are good, but some are definitely bad, and there are getting to be too many terrible design decisions in the game for any amount of new content to bring me back to the game.
Ability Draft must be another beast entirelly now.
I haven’t seen this game in 10 or 11 years now. Looks so much different. Might download it again.
I think grubby uses warcraft 3 as a basis for his arguments. I mean he is mostly right, but I think that there are different variables to take into consideration when pleasing fans. warcraft has an old base of players, if they shook things up (which they tried with reforge and is i think the main reason grubby fears change in this case) to attract new players they would probably have more customers and a better game overall, with more units, more races, more strategies. the real reason people are not really coming back to wc3 is the lack of novelty, which even balance patches can't truly simulate
That, and the fact that you cant play WC3 anymore without using Reforged's online system. No thanks
You might be right. I do see many things through a WC3 lens. The waves of returning DOTA2 players because of novel things cannot be underestimated, it seems
@@GrubbyTalkswe want new playstyles, new races and new units :D
@@GrubbyTalks it's exciting, and it shakes up the meta, allows new pros to arise, those that are quick to adapt and experiment, instead of those who have fine tuned everything perfectly to the dot. Skill can be expressed in many ways and finding creative strategies (with just enough skill) will always be more interesting to me than a tried and tested strategy that requires perfect execution. This dota patch shakes things up, allows more expression of different skills and creativity. Sure it is bound by what the devs decide to give, but in the next few weeks im sure people will find multiple ways to break it and i'm here for it (when you have competent devs, this is the type of change you actually want to see).
@@GrubbyTalks add to that that some of the returning players are older, have mellowed and not really as heavily invested and just want to have fun with the new toys
that said, it will only be some time before the salt accumulates and push them away again, such is the doto patch life cycle
FUCK YEAHH GRUBBY BACKKK SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESH
Glad to see you touching on the Dota new patch, Grubby.
While I think this is an absolute win for Dota, i cant help but feel that some innates/facets feel halfbaked compared to others. Dawnbreaker's is amazing, while Weaver got smth he already had, which you already invest in at lvl 2 or Alchemist gets 250 g at the start of the match.
Some of those concepts can potentially set up a or win fights fight if used right..while others are just "hey..the release date is coming up and we need an innate for this hero. --- lets just give it smth he already has and is usefull for the first 5 mins of the game"
I hope they eventually rework all of these to be unique.
i think more will come for sure if the swag bag is back again xD
I said it years ago in my review of the game.
"It's like cocaine... avoid"
4,892.0 hrs on record (2,071.7 hrs at review time)
dota community misses you grubby come back!
The changes makes the game follow the lore and how the mechanics SHOULD work ... Very interesting!
I've left dota nearly a decade years ago but I'm still hyped by every big patch or new hero they drop. It's amazing how much firetoad and valve can push the game and make it fresh again and again for 20 years.
Firetoad? You mean snowfrog?
@@mathieutaillefer8418snow frog? Do you mean water peeper?
So refreshing to see someone flip out like this over a big patch drop. This is pretty much normal for old dota players at this point. I've been playing since over a decade from the dota 1 days. Started from 2k MMR and peaked at 8.5k MMR. Now I work so I can only play sometimes, so I just watch dota more to try and fill the gap of playing. Watching grubby start new and climb the ranks reminded me of myself back in the day. 😶🌫️
Saying that the HD2 situation was mostly a Dev issue and partially a Publisher issue is getting it backwards and really made me rethink how often I want to listen to Grubby when he talks about Game Studios
The current situation is a dev problem because all the guns are fucking broken and nerfed into dirt
The PSN Mandatory Account fiasco is definitely a publisher issue, but balance is solely on the devs themselves.
Legion commander change makes it the most op shot calling
We ARE killing THIS NOW
Legion is also a very dirty fighter if her 'duels' reward interference from outsiders lol
Would love to watch you play again, been watching you for a long time. Just about healthy balance, I definitely don't play as much as I used to
How many times DOTA 2 has been radically altered is great.
When Valve heard you're leaving for a while they do this.
Grubby come back
You make a Pugna pocket support for Muerta and she gets to do what she wants all game
once hooked by dota2, no other game will ever compare
I heard Bleerzrrd changed less in Overwatch 2.0 than Valve changed Dota in 7.36
It literally happened to me. I pressed the play button and I was like "What the fuck? Why doesn't the Lich recover anymore mana?"
lol i was thinking it would be amazing if you tried this update and here we are, thanks for the update
I love the new Dota 2. It is so fun. Turbo is my favorite game mode!
Can I find vods of your first streams playing dota? I'm getting into the game right now myself so I'd like see how you were dealing with some challenges as a new player.
one of the best ways to play dota 2 is to go into settings and disable all communication, sad but true...
players can communicate everything they need in a low to mid ranked pub game with the chat wheels and alt/ctrl+alt signals, valve just needs to add some more specified options for the chat wheel and then disabling the comms from random people you pub with can become the norm.
Some facet not for competetive but for laughs and giggles, i mean i play for fun so this patch works for me. 😅
Thank you for your insight, sir.
Have you seen vengeful spirit facet ? I appreciate they made attack animation same as dota1. Range attack but melee effect. Interesting
I think Valve has invented a new business model:
Instead of making a $70 AAA game, or making a pay-to-win game, or a subscription-based game,
they made a F2P game, where players spend money once a year.
Like Grubby talked in one of the other videos, exploring and figuring out the game is a part of the fun, Valve makes sure there's something new to explore every year (even people that like Lore get an update). And it creates a huge info field, that pulls old player base back, as well as the new players - it's easier to jump into the game when the meta is undeveloped(If you hear there are multi-million dollar tournaments for 14+ years, and devs drop game-changing updates, you will try it at some point).
Ti and the prize pool shrink every year.
@@HighLanderPonyYT still one of the biggest esports. Prize pool is on par with competitors.
Valve probably thinking "Player base? Hah! Once you go DOtA you never go nah"
10k game time and still thumbs down in DOtA2 but still playing up to 16k, while still holding same grudges, we knew people like that, maybe "Nobody quits DOtA, they just took extended break" is true. Let's face it, those who play DOtA2 loves to get butthurt, because the illusion of applying same pain and agone towards another player is too enticing to let go. I could be wrong, but I guess I got a couple percent of my facts right.
START DOTA2 VIDS again we love to see u play! no room for replays.