I bought a $300-ish custom, notched up work of art from a small modder and a month later the left stick started to mess up. Now it collects dust in a drawer and I use a crusty silver OEM controller that I bought for $15 a decade ago. It's easy to drive yourself crazy trying to find a good controller.
I gave up on constantly replacing controllers and learned a box-style controller a few years ago. Initial cost: ~$250, but I've never had to replace or fix it over the years.
@@altan5910 plus, because they’re used in so much more than just smash controllers, it’s super easy to just swap out the buttons, sanwas are super easy to find and designed to be swapped in and out by even a beginner. Way more accessible than modding a GC controller
@Jabug_ The silver one has issues too, but it doesn't cause me to SD like the custom one. I appreciate your suggestion, though! I have never used a controller that didn't have some issues with the left stick.
It's interesting that melee, one of the few games that has 360 degree inputs, is usually played with an octagonal gate. While games with 8 directions are played with square/circular gates.
It's something I really appreciate about the Gamecube controller in general. The octagonal gate allows devs to design around the idea that players can easily get 8 very consistent angles on the stick, without sacrificing its precise analog nature.
Top level Melee players are a different breed, man. I can't fathom going so incredibly hard and being on such a different plane of existence that I'd need surgery to repair my hands because they were moving too hard and fast.
It's not that uncommon in competitive gaming, not just Melee. In particular, there's been quite a few Street Fighter players and more than a few Starcraft players forced into retirement due to hand problems.
@@VinceOfAllTrades it's no wonder I always avoided playing so intensely competitively. you lose sight of reality and end up without your hobby or your hands.
its people like Hax$ who do they same exact inputs for 10 hours in training mode that cause the most issues. Same piano players people practicing the same piece hours at a time usually get injury prone repetition and longevity are issues playing games even competitively for even like 5 hours a day your probably going to be fine. Its just the 3 hours in training mode practicing ledge dashes the same inputs CONSTANTLY NO DOWN TIME.
I just want a modern gamecube controller (with the extra missing buttons) that is decent for melee and other fighting games. Something I can use for gamecube, switch and PC. The panda controller was so close, but never made it out the gate. It's really cumbersome needing multiple controllers for different games. Melee is the most obtuse controller in my opinion but I love it so much.
I've been asking Brook for years now to make a Wingman adapter for modern controllers on GameCube (Not just for Melee too, Super GNT4, Mario Kart Wii and Tatsunoko VS Capcom could all use that) Maybe if there's enough demand some of us will end up with Dualsense Edge controllers or others in the future XD
Maybe not GameCube local but I'm enjoying the Gulikit kingKong pro 2 and it feels serviceable for Melee. Works on switch, pc but no GCC plug so only dolphin for GC
Also Analog triggers. I think it's what you want tbh. Only complain online I've seen is lack of back buttons but otherwise I've been loving it since I got it.
12:05 I was casually watching this and did not expect to see one of my videos to be clipped here. I think you did a great job going in depth and describing all of the controllers in an objective way. Great video. 🤝
it's amazing seeing bits and pieces of what I've come to learn about phobs, the Boxx, and the context of that bobby clip, all in one video. Insanely well done! banger video!
quick correction (10:50): unless you play on a boxx controller with programmable modification buttons, you can't get a max length wavedash on a boxx style controller. you can get rather long wavedashes but this is a specific nerf that players like hax$ have kept in the b0xx.
@@mattisandersson9661 the boxx has had a set of nerfs throughout its entire lifespan, but I do believe things like sdi nerfs and pivots have been tweaked a bit
www.etsy.com/shop/CadraWorks this guy sells phob mother board's for around 60$ or higher depending on what you want take in consideration if you want to build one you're self you have to buy a soldering station, solder flux, wick or pump remover to get rid of solder and extra enterals from an existing GameCube controller if it's cheaper to buy a fully built phob go for it but if you already have tools ready to go it's better you build one you're self
Just for the people who want the best option on a budget, the part showcasing that the phob is $500 can vary from modder to modder, if you want to still get a phob without the huge price jump you can just buy a fully assembled phob board itself (of course modder dependent) if you don't know anything about soldering stuff together, buy your cosmetics separately and you can save quite a bit of money that way, it'll take some time on your end if you want to go this route, but if you have the extra cash you can just buy a fully decked out controller. controllers are expensive these days so just a different approach to think about when shopping for these things. Edit: likes are all appreciated, I'm not usually the kind of guy to edit my comments for this thing but couldn't help but say thank you for any likes, happy to help out in some way for newer folks ☺
me and a friend of mine convinced almost half of our local scene to place an order on just the PCBs from china, we are going to do the rest of the work ourselves. The total will probably be around 40 dollars per phob
@@nelsonrodriguez2085 yup with the newer phob motherboards it's gotten a lot cheaper. If you already have a T3 stickbox donor and don't go for custom shells and buttons etc you can easily even do a one off phob for like $50 or less, assuming you have the tools and skills to do so. I've considered building some for others for cheap as well
I have had the same oem controller for about a year now and while it is modded I has been fairly consistent only needing the occasional fix every few months even though I play everyday. I love the thing.
for those who don’t know phobs and goomwaves are used by basically all top melee players but a lot will still say they’re basically cheating but also it’s hard to implement limits because the community has gone so far in terms of controller tech and community, there’s people who live off modding controllers for melee you can’t just end that.
I think certain mods are definitely cheating(notches, mouseclick buttons, cutting trigger springs, etc.), but fixing the biggest issue with OEM controllers(potentiometer degradation) is a plus. I think most things beyond a hall effects sensor is cheating. It's honestly ASTOUNDING that the community allows notches. I see there being no argument for them, as it is pretty obvious that it is taking away a certain skill and most definitely constitutes cheating.
@@davedanger4414 like the video mentions, shield dropping is such an essential tech in melee’s meta today that notching your controller for consistency is probably the fairest way to go about it, cheating or no. Also it’s not getting rid of a skill floor because of the inconsistency of doing it between controllers, and over time on the same controller.
@@davedanger4414 part of the issue with banning stuff like notches is that because gamecube controllers are so different, even out of the box you can’t regulate a lot of this stuff. If you can find a controller in the wild that has its stick messed up in certain way that makes it perfect for shield dropping, what makes that different from one made to be perfect for it.
@@poiri I'm saying the easy fix is a phob. I don't think putting notches to make things 100% perfect every time is a good thing. You don't even have to have muscle memory. You just throw it in the notch corner and you hit it with 100% accuracy 100% of the time. OEM lottery is not the way and I never insinuated it was the best way. I don't know the general variance between phobs, but it is definitely easier than the majority of OEM controllers.
@@davedanger4414 if you want to ban notches you should think the same way about box style controllers, or at least that they have to be nerfed heavily, but box style controllers are first and foremost an ergonomic alternative for people with hand issues, and i personally view improving the base controller to the level of boxes to be much more preferable to nerfing the boxes to be as inconsistent as controllers. Doesn't everybody want a good controller? Imo phob and goomwave are rly crucial to a level playing field in melee or smash in general. Everybody should have access to 1.0 cardinal dash speeds, consistent shield drops, and good wavedash angles. It shouldn't be a pay-to-win for people who can use box controllers that have macros. Rather, imo everybody should have the priveliges of being able to execute controller-specific or heavily controller dependent tech. At that point, winners of matches, people who succeed in competiton succeed purely because of their skill, and not because of some mixture of their skill and their luck or willingness to spend boatloads of money on a decent and somewhat usable controller.
After 10 years of controller after controller breaking i switched to box So when people give me shit over it i just assume they dont know really know much about melee and havent been playing very long
Also as a semi-outsider/smash melee noob, I REALLY don’t understand the B0XX hate. For one thing, learning it is the most unintuitive and difficult way to play smash in the beginning. It would take months just to get to the level you were at with GC controller. I think getting over that learning curve should be commended, so why are peeps salty when they’re using modded GC controllers with notches, easier button presses, completely different motherboards and whathaveyou? Just look at the FGC, you don’t see them whining about how fight sticks are better than gamepad (excluding the hitbox conversation but shhh) Overall, as someone who’s seen a lot of discussion over B0XX controllers but isn’t nearly good enough to have a first hand opinion, *embrace evolution. Stop bitching and play the game.*
Amazing video! If I had one thing to add, it is that I wish you would have included a segment on Hax $'s 1.03 patch which is basically an extension to UCF. It fixes a lot of the problems of unmodded controllers & levels the playing field a little with regards to the boxx controllers. I think it's a great & scalable solution since it's openly available and a software mod, not a hardware mod. I can really recommend Hax $'s videos, where he elaborates on this and which few mods he would recommend on 1.03, most of which can be done by the average Joe, I'd argue. Keep up the great videos~
I've wanted s custom for so long and I recently finally got one. It's got a black and neon style arcade colour pallete (with the black parts being glittery) and pink buttons with multicolored outlines. It's covered in Mario Party references like stars and dice blocks and various items, and has arr of Peach front and center (the art itself was a separate commission made to fit the shape of the controller) it was about 400 bucks CAD.
I got mad respect for people goin all out with their controllers to find the perfect fit for themselves! Im in the process in modding my old Razer Atrox fightstick to a leverless, and with new more responsive buttons and new artwork Ive made myself! Im so hyped to get this project goin'! Just waiting for my parts to arrive
Smash noob over here- I appreciate the level of depth you went into with your explanations! This video convinced me to look into the B0XX cuz ergonomics :)
A GameCube style controller is hands down the best 3D platform, action/adventure, sports, and rpg controller ever made. The only two genres I can think of that I prefer a different controller is FPS and fighting games
Hear me out: GameCube layout with a bigger D-Pad, but the Nunchuck’s C & Z buttons as your back buttons on both the left & right sides of the controller. Not sure what it would cost to create/build but I know it’d be super comfy for me.
love the recent melee doc content recently & really cool topic to have covered on your channel. 2 small gripes, goomwaves feel like they got a lil unneccessarily dunked on. afaik they've never been banned @ any majors, & there's still top players who use them. and i don't think i've ever met a single modder who would claim that they've made "a lot of money" off their work. otherwise really liked the editing & all the bits, and i thought it was a great piece on controllers & the discourse around it
IMO the perfect controller would be a better version of sony's DS4, with individual d-pad buttons rather than a single pad and a sloped back half so the trigger area doesn't cut into your hands. Maybe the right side face buttons could be diagonally staggered and there could be six of them. Aligning the analog sticks diagonally like Xbox or Sony's dumb new mobile controller is unergonomic and prevents claw-grip for the d-pad so keep the Sony mirror-image alignment. No leds or Motion sensor for a 24 hour battery too. I'd buy in a heartbeat ngl.
Recently I've been playing a lot of Smash Remix on the 64, and my go-to controller started drifting and it really bothered me. I changed controllers and it was such a breath of fresh air
It's crazy that players sacrificing flexibility for consistency are looked down upon for making that trade. Like it literally just gives them less options and they're still called cheaters despite that.
i thought the gc controller was dead- glad to see its actually quite reviered. its very comfy for games made for it. i got 3 second hand and canibalizsed 2 knock-offs with huge analogue dead zones to replace the button rubbers except the d-pad that didn't like the firmer upgrade!
I don’t see why there is so much hatred of the Boxx. The gamecube controller wasn’t designed for consistency or competitive melee while the boxx was. in competitive rowing we aren’t still using wooden symmetrical oars because the design has evolved to be more consistent and functional
Boxx players get too much hate fr you know how hard it is just to figure out how to use the thing at all it's like relearning the whole game and it was meant to help people with hand conditions and to minimize pain not to make the game easier, anyone complaining about it go get one and see if you're still nearly as good with it as a gamecube controller that shit takes practice and skill
I get your points and i don't complain about boxx users, but we can't use the idea that it's for people with hand conditions when so many people are just switching because they're sick of the endless perfect controller quest.
Ik people think boxes are cheating, but as a box player that played on controller (and also someone that plays a nunber of different fighting games), it isn't? The amount of time and effort it takes to learn a box controller is way way more than it takes to learn a gc controller, and just because the inputs are perfect, doesn't mean the human is. Ny reaction time is insanely slow, and I can only play for an hour or two of hardcore gaming on a pad before my hands can't keep going, and having an ergonomic layout and something that makes things a little bit snappier is greatly appreciated. Plus, they sound nice, and you can build your own from just the parts and I think it helps build an important bond with your controller (ik it sounds weird but if you don't love your controller, you won't play at your peak imo). They're the onpy controllers, really, that you actually have to think about what buttons to press, and their size means more travel time for your wrists sometimes, you can't really have all the buttons available to your fingers comfortably at any moment. I do think it's flatout better than gcc -- if you can learn it WELL. But it's like the difference between optimal and nonoptimal combos; if you're more comfortable with the nonoptimal one, than the optimal one isn't gonna help you or just make you better. The game is still insanely difficult, and the controllers are becoming more and more accessible anyway (mine was 100 bucks). Boxx isn't cheating, it's simply trying to take human skill and push it a bit further, imo.
The same story with the Leverless Controllers in fighting games... everything was being modded before and those improvements were right but when they went a step beyond that and got better results community got mad and wanted it to be illegal...
10:55 minor correction that all SWT compliant box controllers cant do perfect 16.9 degree angles. the best possible is somewhere between 21 and 24 degrees which b0xx/F1 style firmware can only get during up B and instead only get 30 degrees for other things such as wavedashes. Whilst consistent it still leaves them worse off than a notched gamecube controller
I switched to a Smash Box. I underestimated how much I relied on notches for my inputs and how bad my inputs were. No modern controllers had them and I wasn't about to shell out a bunch of money for a custom GC controller when I suck with analog inputs anyway.
There is something you missed about phobs: the magnets aren't fragile or whatever, but the 1.X version had issues about how you had to install the USB board on the custom motherboard, which gave issues even months after you got the controller from the modder. The new version, the 2.X, fixed this issue around january of this year, so basically 5 months ago. If your 2.0 phob gives issues, it's because the modder can't do even basic jobs. It still uses magnets and whatever, but the problem wasnt about magnets in first place. Obviously the magnet mounts shouldn't be printed in resin because it's fragile, but PLA, a more solid material, is way more common in 3D printing. I use for my controller and the ones I mod nylon mounts which have glued magnets and it's glued to the stickbox. Doing so I've never had any complaints
Ergonomics is a MUST for any repetitive motion that you spend that much time on, and if you ignore this you will do very real and very permanent damage to your body. I feel like Smash is the only competitive activity where ergonomics are largely ignored, which is insane. I cannot support the Gamecube controller for this reason. If you DON'T want a box style used, then at least come up with an alternative that will not damage people's hands.
I am not a smash player but hot damn the dedication to controller modding that community has gets me bricked up. Now if only I could find a good bluetooth GC controller with hall effect sensors for my PC. I know about nyxi but I dont want to have to keep 2 USB cables attached to the thing to charge it. PS: I play fighters with a keyboard so I instantly made a hitbox as soon as I knew they were a thing. I am also nowhere near good enough for even unranked online play.
The upcoming Nyxi Warrior might be what you're after! One controller, with one USB-C cable, not a joycon pair. I don't think there are any reviews yet (it's still only in preorder) but I think it looks promising.
For anyone watching who is curious, you can build your own Phob for $150 - $200. PhobGCC motherboards are literally $17. If you already have a soldering kit it can be done for even less.
Where can i go to have a PlayStation 2 controller custom modded? There's a game i play from time to time and i feel that the controller is holding me back from kicking butt perfectly.
I'm trying to get into melee and holy shit it's a lot. I still don't even know what controller I'm going to get lmao. This video helps sort through what all is out there, thanks.
I've been wanting to upgrade from a GC controller for a while now but the prices man... woah... I had hopes with the Panda controller but that project is gone... No that I use a super technical character (ICs) but still...
It's kinda like the people who want to be a bowler, you could go and just rent a bowling ball and be casual, or you can buy your own custom ultra top of the line bowling ball and Shoes and be top tier. Being a pro can be expensive, but pays off if you're successful
Another reason other than being cracked at the game to mod a controller is just because it's super fun! I love making my own stuff, have built my own pc keyboard and headphones in the past, and play smash like a tryhard casual. I am currently decking out my smash 4 gcc both because I enjoy smash, and because I find it fun. Just thought I'd mention my own perspective because you guys made it sound like getting a decked out controller is pointless unless you're taking smash seriously. I get that it kinda is, and it's overkill as can be, but for some, its not about the controller, but the experience of making it.
Should probably add that Phobs have gotten cheaper and easier to make with 2.0. And the cost of getting 5 PCBs (the minimum from the PCB manufacturer) is about 200-250USD, after that you just need tools, cables, magnets, magnet holders and donar controllers. you can then additionally add tactical buttons and Phobvision (a way to get controller information onto a CRT and easy calibration). Took me about 20h to make my first one, but I spent around 11h fixing with the face button cuse they need to be very annoyingly precisely filed down to fit the tactical switches. Also spent a lot of time trying to fix Phobvision which the issue for me might just be that my CRT might not be able take an NTSC signal (I European). It was my first time doing any solder work at all.
i wanna see someone kick everyone's ass with just an old OEM controller, top of the top with just their old childhood gamecube controller because i'd think it would be funny and somewhat poetic
I hope to be good enough one day to notice a difference between my $30 USB pro-controller-disguised-as-gamecube-controller monstrosity and a $500 precision tooled tournament winning art piece.
My friends are all actually over rn for my wedding, and we’re all huge Melee players. I play stock controllers, but one of my best friends brought his new, SPICY ass notched controller and all, with the light shield trigger and everything. And gotta say, those motherfuckers are total cheaters, hahahaha. Actually getting to use one for a minute is just like- Jesus Christ. On the bright side though, a Sony Trinitron as a wedding gift was pretty dope.
the difference in pay to win controllers is how much they look like a gamecube controller. gotta find that anon post by some dude still using an old teensy in his gcc lmao
I ordered 2 super cool and nasty Custom Gamecube Controllers that featured art fromy my favorite games. Only 1 of them ever arrived😔. And as much as i love my Joker one, im sad i couldnt get the other one which was based on Claude from Fire Emblem.
After going through PODE within 4 different controllers now. I've decided to make my own Phob. I know I don't have $500 sitting around to get a Phob and soldering isn't hard.
If you guys want a decent phob just get a drop in phob which you can find online from 80-100$ cheaper and all you need is a scrap controller to get a great controller
Actually according to US copyright and IP law, any form of modding is technically illegal. Anything you mod can be taken down by the company it’s from, especially if you make money out of it. The only reason mods survive today is because they exist purely on the whims and graces of the companies the original sources are from, because MOST BUSINESSES (read: not Nintendo) know that letting a modding scene for their game grow makes their game and brand more popular, so it’s a win-win. But ultimately they do reserve the right to take any mod down if they choose to When I first heard of this law I was shocked. Really hoping someone in congress brings up reforms one day
@@Junya01 Does this apply if there are no longer any original parts? Phobs afaik are completely custom motherboards running homemade, open source firmware. If you buy all aftermarket parts for the rest of the controller, then it's not technically a modification of an original. There may be some trademark or copyright disputes, but I'm not versed in copyright law (or any law for that matter)
@@targetbuddy5 honestly no clue. I only know about this from a video from a lawyer talking about mods for Breath of the Wild and why a certain youtuber’s videos were taken down (unfairly, yet completely legal and within Nintendo’s rights).
I wish that controllers were more accessible cost wise. I also wish there wasnt a war on people who need to use alternative controllers to comfortably play
damn, the Goomwave sounded like the perfect controller for me. Melee's tap to jump couldn't be disabled like it could in future games so uptilts were always too hard with my disability. :/ kinda sucks that whenever an accessible controller comes out, it's basically a coin flip on whether it'll get banned for "cheating".
It's my headcanon that the GameCube controller doesn't have a decent D-Pad and a second shoulder button because it would be unfair to other controllers to even compete. I miss the octagonal-shaped hole around the stick. On every other controller, when I hold forward it's always at an angle. Except for the GameCube and the Wii Nunchuk and Classic controller.
I bought a $300-ish custom, notched up work of art from a small modder and a month later the left stick started to mess up. Now it collects dust in a drawer and I use a crusty silver OEM controller that I bought for $15 a decade ago. It's easy to drive yourself crazy trying to find a good controller.
I gave up on constantly replacing controllers and learned a box-style controller a few years ago. Initial cost: ~$250, but I've never had to replace or fix it over the years.
@@altan5910 plus, because they’re used in so much more than just smash controllers, it’s super easy to just swap out the buttons, sanwas are super easy to find and designed to be swapped in and out by even a beginner. Way more accessible than modding a GC controller
Yea I’d consider moving the good stick box from the old one to the new one but desoldering can be a pain the ass
@Jabug_ The silver one has issues too, but it doesn't cause me to SD like the custom one. I appreciate your suggestion, though! I have never used a controller that didn't have some issues with the left stick.
@@jabug_1144 notches wouldn't work anymore then, he would need to get a new faceplate notched to the new stickbox
It's interesting that melee, one of the few games that has 360 degree inputs, is usually played with an octagonal gate. While games with 8 directions are played with square/circular gates.
It's something I really appreciate about the Gamecube controller in general. The octagonal gate allows devs to design around the idea that players can easily get 8 very consistent angles on the stick, without sacrificing its precise analog nature.
Top level Melee players are a different breed, man.
I can't fathom going so incredibly hard and being on such a different plane of existence that I'd need surgery to repair my hands because they were moving too hard and fast.
It's not that uncommon in competitive gaming, not just Melee. In particular, there's been quite a few Street Fighter players and more than a few Starcraft players forced into retirement due to hand problems.
@@VinceOfAllTrades it's no wonder I always avoided playing so intensely competitively. you lose sight of reality and end up without your hobby or your hands.
I suck and I severely and permanently injured my hand, bad genetics and being dumb enough to push through pain will mess you up
@@bullydungeon9631 yeah sadly not the craziest thing, fortnite gave me carpal tunnel at 16 lmfaoo
its people like Hax$ who do they same exact inputs for 10 hours in training mode that cause the most issues. Same piano players people practicing the same piece hours at a time usually get injury prone repetition and longevity are issues playing games even competitively for even like 5 hours a day your probably going to be fine. Its just the 3 hours in training mode practicing ledge dashes the same inputs CONSTANTLY NO DOWN TIME.
I just want a modern gamecube controller (with the extra missing buttons) that is decent for melee and other fighting games. Something I can use for gamecube, switch and PC. The panda controller was so close, but never made it out the gate.
It's really cumbersome needing multiple controllers for different games. Melee is the most obtuse controller in my opinion but I love it so much.
I've been asking Brook for years now to make a Wingman adapter for modern controllers on GameCube (Not just for Melee too, Super GNT4, Mario Kart Wii and Tatsunoko VS Capcom could all use that)
Maybe if there's enough demand some of us will end up with Dualsense Edge controllers or others in the future XD
Maybe not GameCube local but I'm enjoying the Gulikit kingKong pro 2 and it feels serviceable for Melee. Works on switch, pc but no GCC plug so only dolphin for GC
Magnetic sticks btw, and gyro for switch
Also Analog triggers. I think it's what you want tbh. Only complain online I've seen is lack of back buttons but otherwise I've been loving it since I got it.
Just get a standard one
Great video that explains the differences in controllers to people outside the Smash bubble! Glad you enjoyed playing on my B0XX hehe.
Just wanna give a quick shoutout to Christina Applegate!
Surprised they haven't made a customized motherboard shape with custom frame for a different layout of buttons and stick
Don’t let them see this
Surely someone’s working on it.
I'd pay money for a modern controller latyout and shell with GCC parts
They even did this with the pro controller ahaha Look for ProGCC, it's basically a PhobGCC inside a pro controller
PhobNES is in the makings
12:05 I was casually watching this and did not expect to see one of my videos to be clipped here.
I think you did a great job going in depth and describing all of the controllers in an objective way. Great video. 🤝
Their citation should have been much clearer.
it's amazing seeing bits and pieces of what I've come to learn about phobs, the Boxx, and the context of that bobby clip, all in one video.
Insanely well done! banger video!
quick correction (10:50): unless you play on a boxx controller with programmable modification buttons, you can't get a max length wavedash on a boxx style controller. you can get rather long wavedashes but this is a specific nerf that players like hax$ have kept in the b0xx.
Can confirm any pleb on a GCC can hit longer wavedashes than me
Especially with notches
I think you used to, but since boxx controllers have gotten a lot of complains hax$ did nerf alot of fix in software patches
@@mattisandersson9661 the boxx has had a set of nerfs throughout its entire lifespan, but I do believe things like sdi nerfs and pivots have been tweaked a bit
500$ for a phob is crazy. I regularly build phobs (including the price of a new smash ult controller) for around 70€
Could you direct me to where I can buy one?
Pls tell us where to buy
Yes, I 3rd that, tell us where to buy, friend. :3
you cant just say you buld phobs for 70euro and not drop a link
www.etsy.com/shop/CadraWorks this guy sells phob mother board's for around 60$ or higher depending on what you want take in consideration if you want to build one you're self you have to buy a soldering station, solder flux, wick or pump remover to get rid of solder and extra enterals from an existing GameCube controller if it's cheaper to buy a fully built phob go for it but if you already have tools ready to go it's better you build one you're self
Just for the people who want the best option on a budget, the part showcasing that the phob is $500 can vary from modder to modder, if you want to still get a phob without the huge price jump you can just buy a fully assembled phob board itself (of course modder dependent) if you don't know anything about soldering stuff together, buy your cosmetics separately and you can save quite a bit of money that way, it'll take some time on your end if you want to go this route, but if you have the extra cash you can just buy a fully decked out controller.
controllers are expensive these days so just a different approach to think about when shopping for these things.
Edit: likes are all appreciated, I'm not usually the kind of guy to edit my comments for this thing but couldn't help but say thank you for any likes, happy to help out in some way for newer folks ☺
me and a friend of mine convinced almost half of our local scene to place an order on just the PCBs from china, we are going to do the rest of the work ourselves.
The total will probably be around 40 dollars per phob
@@nelsonrodriguez2085 yup with the newer phob motherboards it's gotten a lot cheaper. If you already have a T3 stickbox donor and don't go for custom shells and buttons etc you can easily even do a one off phob for like $50 or less, assuming you have the tools and skills to do so. I've considered building some for others for cheap as well
Well said 😆
@@trevorhannan6428 why hello there lol
I have had the same oem controller for about a year now and while it is modded I has been fairly consistent only needing the occasional fix every few months even though I play everyday. I love the thing.
for those who don’t know phobs and goomwaves are used by basically all top melee players but a lot will still say they’re basically cheating but also it’s hard to implement limits because the community has gone so far in terms of controller tech and community, there’s people who live off modding controllers for melee you can’t just end that.
I think certain mods are definitely cheating(notches, mouseclick buttons, cutting trigger springs, etc.), but fixing the biggest issue with OEM controllers(potentiometer degradation) is a plus. I think most things beyond a hall effects sensor is cheating. It's honestly ASTOUNDING that the community allows notches. I see there being no argument for them, as it is pretty obvious that it is taking away a certain skill and most definitely constitutes cheating.
@@davedanger4414 like the video mentions, shield dropping is such an essential tech in melee’s meta today that notching your controller for consistency is probably the fairest way to go about it, cheating or no. Also it’s not getting rid of a skill floor because of the inconsistency of doing it between controllers, and over time on the same controller.
@@davedanger4414 part of the issue with banning stuff like notches is that because gamecube controllers are so different, even out of the box you can’t regulate a lot of this stuff. If you can find a controller in the wild that has its stick messed up in certain way that makes it perfect for shield dropping, what makes that different from one made to be perfect for it.
@@poiri I'm saying the easy fix is a phob. I don't think putting notches to make things 100% perfect every time is a good thing. You don't even have to have muscle memory. You just throw it in the notch corner and you hit it with 100% accuracy 100% of the time. OEM lottery is not the way and I never insinuated it was the best way. I don't know the general variance between phobs, but it is definitely easier than the majority of OEM controllers.
@@davedanger4414 if you want to ban notches you should think the same way about box style controllers, or at least that they have to be nerfed heavily, but box style controllers are first and foremost an ergonomic alternative for people with hand issues, and i personally view improving the base controller to the level of boxes to be much more preferable to nerfing the boxes to be as inconsistent as controllers. Doesn't everybody want a good controller? Imo phob and goomwave are rly crucial to a level playing field in melee or smash in general. Everybody should have access to 1.0 cardinal dash speeds, consistent shield drops, and good wavedash angles. It shouldn't be a pay-to-win for people who can use box controllers that have macros. Rather, imo everybody should have the priveliges of being able to execute controller-specific or heavily controller dependent tech. At that point, winners of matches, people who succeed in competiton succeed purely because of their skill, and not because of some mixture of their skill and their luck or willingness to spend boatloads of money on a decent and somewhat usable controller.
After 10 years of controller after controller breaking i switched to box
So when people give me shit over it i just assume they dont know really know much about melee and havent been playing very long
Also as a semi-outsider/smash melee noob, I REALLY don’t understand the B0XX hate. For one thing, learning it is the most unintuitive and difficult way to play smash in the beginning. It would take months just to get to the level you were at with GC controller. I think getting over that learning curve should be commended, so why are peeps salty when they’re using modded GC controllers with notches, easier button presses, completely different motherboards and whathaveyou? Just look at the FGC, you don’t see them whining about how fight sticks are better than gamepad (excluding the hitbox conversation but shhh)
Overall, as someone who’s seen a lot of discussion over B0XX controllers but isn’t nearly good enough to have a first hand opinion, *embrace evolution. Stop bitching and play the game.*
impressive, let's see Paul Allen's controller
My hair is slightly better though
A decent phob doesn't even have to cost that much money either, the guy at your local will always be the best deal (if they know what they're doing)
Amazing video!
If I had one thing to add, it is that I wish you would have included a segment on Hax $'s 1.03 patch which is basically an extension to UCF. It fixes a lot of the problems of unmodded controllers & levels the playing field a little with regards to the boxx controllers. I think it's a great & scalable solution since it's openly available and a software mod, not a hardware mod. I can really recommend Hax $'s videos, where he elaborates on this and which few mods he would recommend on 1.03, most of which can be done by the average Joe, I'd argue.
Keep up the great videos~
When you were showing your controller at the beginning, all i could think was "are you familiar with the ship of Theseus?"
the better question is why his left stick is also a cstick, although i made the same mod to mine though
I've wanted s custom for so long and I recently finally got one. It's got a black and neon style arcade colour pallete (with the black parts being glittery) and pink buttons with multicolored outlines. It's covered in Mario Party references like stars and dice blocks and various items, and has arr of Peach front and center (the art itself was a separate commission made to fit the shape of the controller) it was about 400 bucks CAD.
I got mad respect for people goin all out with their controllers to find the perfect fit for themselves! Im in the process in modding my old Razer Atrox fightstick to a leverless, and with new more responsive buttons and new artwork Ive made myself! Im so hyped to get this project goin'! Just waiting for my parts to arrive
Smash noob over here- I appreciate the level of depth you went into with your explanations! This video convinced me to look into the B0XX cuz ergonomics :)
I don't really ever play melee, but I think I might start just so I can use a boxx controller and make melee players angry
A GameCube style controller is hands down the best 3D platform, action/adventure, sports, and rpg controller ever made. The only two genres I can think of that I prefer a different controller is FPS and fighting games
Hear me out: GameCube layout with a bigger D-Pad, but the Nunchuck’s C & Z buttons as your back buttons on both the left & right sides of the controller. Not sure what it would cost to create/build but I know it’d be super comfy for me.
Years of watching and this channel has yet to disappoint
love the recent melee doc content recently & really cool topic to have covered on your channel. 2 small gripes, goomwaves feel like they got a lil unneccessarily dunked on. afaik they've never been banned @ any majors, & there's still top players who use them. and i don't think i've ever met a single modder who would claim that they've made "a lot of money" off their work. otherwise really liked the editing & all the bits, and i thought it was a great piece on controllers & the discourse around it
Mango and fiction I know still use goomwaves
i read goomwaves as “groomwaves” at a glance and thought ‘well duh, this is the smash community we’re talking about’
IMO the perfect controller would be a better version of sony's DS4, with individual d-pad buttons rather than a single pad and a sloped back half so the trigger area doesn't cut into your hands. Maybe the right side face buttons could be diagonally staggered and there could be six of them. Aligning the analog sticks diagonally like Xbox or Sony's dumb new mobile controller is unergonomic and prevents claw-grip for the d-pad so keep the Sony mirror-image alignment. No leds or Motion sensor for a 24 hour battery too. I'd buy in a heartbeat ngl.
Surely there are usb to GameCube controller adapters right?
The start of this video is the embodiment of the business card scene from American Psycho.
Recently I've been playing a lot of Smash Remix on the 64, and my go-to controller started drifting and it really bothered me. I changed controllers and it was such a breath of fresh air
It's crazy that players sacrificing flexibility for consistency are looked down upon for making that trade. Like it literally just gives them less options and they're still called cheaters despite that.
Who woulda thought this game would’ve gone this far since it came out. I remember staying up to play the All-Star mode like it was yesterday.
i thought the gc controller was dead- glad to see its actually quite reviered. its very comfy for games made for it. i got 3 second hand and canibalizsed 2 knock-offs with huge analogue dead zones to replace the button rubbers except the d-pad that didn't like the firmer upgrade!
I don’t see why there is so much hatred of the Boxx. The gamecube controller wasn’t designed for consistency or competitive melee while the boxx was. in competitive rowing we aren’t still using wooden symmetrical oars because the design has evolved to be more consistent and functional
Macros. Its macros
Boxx players get too much hate fr you know how hard it is just to figure out how to use the thing at all it's like relearning the whole game and it was meant to help people with hand conditions and to minimize pain not to make the game easier, anyone complaining about it go get one and see if you're still nearly as good with it as a gamecube controller that shit takes practice and skill
I get your points and i don't complain about boxx users, but we can't use the idea that it's for people with hand conditions when so many people are just switching because they're sick of the endless perfect controller quest.
This is an amazing video, very indepth and interesting for an outsider to the melee game
Ik people think boxes are cheating, but as a box player that played on controller (and also someone that plays a nunber of different fighting games), it isn't? The amount of time and effort it takes to learn a box controller is way way more than it takes to learn a gc controller, and just because the inputs are perfect, doesn't mean the human is. Ny reaction time is insanely slow, and I can only play for an hour or two of hardcore gaming on a pad before my hands can't keep going, and having an ergonomic layout and something that makes things a little bit snappier is greatly appreciated.
Plus, they sound nice, and you can build your own from just the parts and I think it helps build an important bond with your controller (ik it sounds weird but if you don't love your controller, you won't play at your peak imo). They're the onpy controllers, really, that you actually have to think about what buttons to press, and their size means more travel time for your wrists sometimes, you can't really have all the buttons available to your fingers comfortably at any moment. I do think it's flatout better than gcc -- if you can learn it WELL. But it's like the difference between optimal and nonoptimal combos; if you're more comfortable with the nonoptimal one, than the optimal one isn't gonna help you or just make you better. The game is still insanely difficult, and the controllers are becoming more and more accessible anyway (mine was 100 bucks). Boxx isn't cheating, it's simply trying to take human skill and push it a bit further, imo.
The same story with the Leverless Controllers in fighting games... everything was being modded before and those improvements were right but when they went a step beyond that and got better results community got mad and wanted it to be illegal...
15:12 Big A jumpscare 😨
10:55 minor correction that all SWT compliant box controllers cant do perfect 16.9 degree angles. the best possible is somewhere between 21 and 24 degrees which b0xx/F1 style firmware can only get during up B and instead only get 30 degrees for other things such as wavedashes. Whilst consistent it still leaves them worse off than a notched gamecube controller
i’m convinced there’s no better feeling on earth than to press down the triggers on a base model gamecube controller.
Building a custom phob is just the best, getting a controller that you can use for everything is super consistent and will last you decades
JP white is all I need.
Got a painted shell and 2 jp whites. Split the custom one into 2 controllers with acrylic buttons. Just stock jp white board.
I have to say big respect for the quality and research of the content
the boxx is literally the keyboard for a gamecube controller
Competitive Melee is so freaking cool!
been on a rectangle for about a year now shit is so fuckin cracked
Phobs DO NOT need to cost $500, and can be easily obtained for much cheaper, finding phobs in the $100-$200(CAD) isn't terribly difficult
I switched to a Smash Box. I underestimated how much I relied on notches for my inputs and how bad my inputs were. No modern controllers had them and I wasn't about to shell out a bunch of money for a custom GC controller when I suck with analog inputs anyway.
There is something you missed about phobs: the magnets aren't fragile or whatever, but the 1.X version had issues about how you had to install the USB board on the custom motherboard, which gave issues even months after you got the controller from the modder. The new version, the 2.X, fixed this issue around january of this year, so basically 5 months ago. If your 2.0 phob gives issues, it's because the modder can't do even basic jobs. It still uses magnets and whatever, but the problem wasnt about magnets in first place. Obviously the magnet mounts shouldn't be printed in resin because it's fragile, but PLA, a more solid material, is way more common in 3D printing. I use for my controller and the ones I mod nylon mounts which have glued magnets and it's glued to the stickbox. Doing so I've never had any complaints
Amazing vidéo, loved it !
14:03 I really need to find that Fox sound effect
Its hilarious
got jumpscared by the Neature Walk reference at 9:00 but I very much appreciate it
Ergonomics is a MUST for any repetitive motion that you spend that much time on, and if you ignore this you will do very real and very permanent damage to your body. I feel like Smash is the only competitive activity where ergonomics are largely ignored, which is insane. I cannot support the Gamecube controller for this reason. If you DON'T want a box style used, then at least come up with an alternative that will not damage people's hands.
This is some real sweaty stuff right here dang what a rabbit hole of a topic
I am not a smash player but hot damn the dedication to controller modding that community has gets me bricked up.
Now if only I could find a good bluetooth GC controller with hall effect sensors for my PC. I know about nyxi but I dont want to have to keep 2 USB cables attached to the thing to charge it.
PS: I play fighters with a keyboard so I instantly made a hitbox as soon as I knew they were a thing. I am also nowhere near good enough for even unranked online play.
The upcoming Nyxi Warrior might be what you're after! One controller, with one USB-C cable, not a joycon pair. I don't think there are any reviews yet (it's still only in preorder) but I think it looks promising.
For anyone watching who is curious, you can build your own Phob for $150 - $200. PhobGCC motherboards are literally $17. If you already have a soldering kit it can be done for even less.
“You can tell it’s a box because of the way it is” lmfao
Where can i go to have a PlayStation 2 controller custom modded? There's a game i play from time to time and i feel that the controller is holding me back from kicking butt perfectly.
Me laughing with my office keyboard
I'm trying to get into melee and holy shit it's a lot. I still don't even know what controller I'm going to get lmao. This video helps sort through what all is out there, thanks.
I've been wanting to upgrade from a GC controller for a while now but the prices man... woah... I had hopes with the Panda controller but that project is gone... No that I use a super technical character (ICs) but still...
It's kinda like the people who want to be a bowler, you could go and just rent a bowling ball and be casual, or you can buy your own custom ultra top of the line bowling ball and Shoes and be top tier. Being a pro can be expensive, but pays off if you're successful
my only gripe with the gamecube controller is the lack of a second shoulder button lmao
Another reason other than being cracked at the game to mod a controller is just because it's super fun! I love making my own stuff, have built my own pc keyboard and headphones in the past, and play smash like a tryhard casual. I am currently decking out my smash 4 gcc both because I enjoy smash, and because I find it fun. Just thought I'd mention my own perspective because you guys made it sound like getting a decked out controller is pointless unless you're taking smash seriously. I get that it kinda is, and it's overkill as can be, but for some, its not about the controller, but the experience of making it.
"Lets see Paul Allen's controller..."
Isn't the box controller basically a keyboard with less keys?
Should probably add that Phobs have gotten cheaper and easier to make with 2.0. And the cost of getting 5 PCBs (the minimum from the PCB manufacturer) is about 200-250USD, after that you just need tools, cables, magnets, magnet holders and donar controllers. you can then additionally add tactical buttons and Phobvision (a way to get controller information onto a CRT and easy calibration). Took me about 20h to make my first one, but I spent around 11h fixing with the face button cuse they need to be very annoyingly precisely filed down to fit the tactical switches. Also spent a lot of time trying to fix Phobvision which the issue for me might just be that my CRT might not be able take an NTSC signal (I European). It was my first time doing any solder work at all.
Your buddies got rocked with that pricing.
I didn't realize that the akshon esports used to be 7. I thought that you were better than that.
15:25 gamer Michael Cera got rly excited.
I heard a rumor that god made the gamecube controller first and then designed the human hand to fit around it
I came to ask wtf is going on with the thumbnail drawings lol
i wanna see someone kick everyone's ass with just an old OEM controller, top of the top with just their old childhood gamecube controller because i'd think it would be funny and somewhat poetic
I've been trying to find the song playing at the beginning for a while.
Google thinks it's a shitpost called "the soft boy shuffle"
Man, one day I might get a box, mostly because if I have to MOD my GameCube controller, then yeah I’m getting one of those one day.
I will not get a box, I just got a new GameCube controller from the Nintendo switches official release
Are u guys gonna cover the current state of Overwatch 2?
Yes please!!
no use in talking bad about a game that u have a relationship with the league with
tbf you can find modders that will throw a phob in a shell you have for 100 bucks.
I hope to be good enough one day to notice a difference between my $30 USB pro-controller-disguised-as-gamecube-controller monstrosity and a $500 precision tooled tournament winning art piece.
Honestly, all of it should be allowed.
My friends are all actually over rn for my wedding, and we’re all huge Melee players. I play stock controllers, but one of my best friends brought his new, SPICY ass notched controller and all, with the light shield trigger and everything. And gotta say, those motherfuckers are total cheaters, hahahaha. Actually getting to use one for a minute is just like- Jesus Christ.
On the bright side though, a Sony Trinitron as a wedding gift was pretty dope.
the difference in pay to win controllers is how much they look like a gamecube controller. gotta find that anon post by some dude still using an old teensy in his gcc lmao
Bro that phob is NOT worth $500, not even $200. Your boy got ROBBED 😂😂😂
It was done by Nez. Shit will last yrs
verx nice production value on this video
I ordered 2 super cool and nasty Custom Gamecube Controllers that featured art fromy my favorite games.
Only 1 of them ever arrived😔.
And as much as i love my Joker one, im sad i couldnt get the other one which was based on Claude from Fire Emblem.
After going through PODE within 4 different controllers now. I've decided to make my own Phob. I know I don't have $500 sitting around to get a Phob and soldering isn't hard.
If you guys want a decent phob just get a drop in phob which you can find online from 80-100$ cheaper and all you need is a scrap controller to get a great controller
Shield dropping was mastered and popularized by aMSa not Plup.
i would argue Axe / the Axe method is what popularized it.
Phobs aren't always that expensive btw! Tommy just kinda got scammed :P
God I wish the panda global controller saw the light of day 😢
Let’s see Paul Allen’s game cube controller
Don't let Nintendo see this video or they'll try ot cancel controller modding somehow
Actually according to US copyright and IP law, any form of modding is technically illegal. Anything you mod can be taken down by the company it’s from, especially if you make money out of it. The only reason mods survive today is because they exist purely on the whims and graces of the companies the original sources are from, because MOST BUSINESSES (read: not Nintendo) know that letting a modding scene for their game grow makes their game and brand more popular, so it’s a win-win. But ultimately they do reserve the right to take any mod down if they choose to
When I first heard of this law I was shocked. Really hoping someone in congress brings up reforms one day
@@Junya01 Does this apply if there are no longer any original parts? Phobs afaik are completely custom motherboards running homemade, open source firmware. If you buy all aftermarket parts for the rest of the controller, then it's not technically a modification of an original. There may be some trademark or copyright disputes, but I'm not versed in copyright law (or any law for that matter)
@@targetbuddy5 honestly no clue. I only know about this from a video from a lawyer talking about mods for Breath of the Wild and why a certain youtuber’s videos were taken down (unfairly, yet completely legal and within Nintendo’s rights).
oh hey thats my controller at 10:35 lol
in case anyone was wondering I now have 3 jmook signatures on it
I wish that controllers were more accessible cost wise. I also wish there wasnt a war on people who need to use alternative controllers to comfortably play
Greatest thing since sliced bread
“And boxes are tournament legal”
For now
“Calcified bone in his hand” lol I hope his bones are calcified
10:29 whos boxx is that because that evangelion design goes hard
damn, the Goomwave sounded like the perfect controller for me. Melee's tap to jump couldn't be disabled like it could in future games so uptilts were always too hard with my disability. :/ kinda sucks that whenever an accessible controller comes out, it's basically a coin flip on whether it'll get banned for "cheating".
Me who plays with Joycons from the thrift store [the left one has stick drift allowing for perfect Shield Drops] for $20.00 👁️👄👁️
personally i think any controller is fine to use. if the controller can read your inputs without a ton of lag than its fine.
Ai ass comment
@@isaacjolin9418 shut up
will never forget the hope that the panda controller brought me....
It's my headcanon that the GameCube controller doesn't have a decent D-Pad and a second shoulder button because it would be unfair to other controllers to even compete.
I miss the octagonal-shaped hole around the stick. On every other controller, when I hold forward it's always at an angle. Except for the GameCube and the Wii Nunchuk and Classic controller.
Now let's see Paul Allen's controller