As a Black woman I dont appreciate warped unrealistic depictions of history, that erase black womens experiences. Notably with regards to the film 'The Beguiled' if Sofia or any other white person didnt want to depict slavery and privileged slave owning white women perhaps it's best not to make films about the American civil war or any of the 400years of American history then. The only reason why depictions of black women as slaves seem so prevalant is because there is a distinct lack of positive nuanced depictions of black women in cinema. Sofia could have collaborated with black director, writers, producers, the real reason why she does not depict black women in her films is because she doesnt want to, she rather perpetuate the blond white ideal of beauty and white femininity over and over again. Ideally there just needs to be more non-white women directors
Why is it that especially women are told what they should do. Her artistic vision is hers alone. She clearly doesn't want or need "help" because she has a certain style even if critics and others don't like it. Cinema needs more women directors in general so every experience can be depicted. And to be TOTALLY honest if she would have had the slave character in the movie that probably would have provoked every sort of comment including those who would have demanded that she should have given the movie to a black woman. Maybe not every movie is for everyone. I often have to remind 50 year old men that they are not the main target audience for Disney movies.
Slavery has always existed (it still does) but obviously not every movie is going to approach the topic. Her movie is set in the civil war but it's about the woman left behind at home that her particular story focuses on. It's the same with how not all movies set in the modern day include a slave character, nor do all historical movies set in other eras have a slave in the story. History involved more than just slavery, and until about 200 years ago slavery had never even really been considered as inherently immoral.
@Lwandile M Nice speech but if American white women were gate keepers there would be way more working in important jobs in the industry. And AGAIN an artistic vision is an artistic vision. The "Yes, but..."sentences are as toxic as blatant sexism. And the conversation has just begun. Native American and pagan women will also raise their voices in the future. I would like to see a video essay about the representation of these groups. As a pagan woman myself I'm far more interested in this. But I might watch Coppola's "Beguiled" which I avided in the past because the female characters didn't speak to me. The older movie seems to be extremely sexist which doesn't seem to bother you. Interesting because this is a No Go for me.
It makes me uncomfortable how overly feminine films are criticized for having no masculine elements yet overly masculine films are often overrated and *never* criticized for having no feminine elements.
No they get criticized for having toxic masculinity. I feel people will unfairly criticise anything that is different to them (be it their gender, race or class).
so true!!! when i hear critiques of Coppola's films for being overly concerned with the aesthetic, I think of some of the most celebrated male filmmakers of all time who unashamedly lean into the aesthetic, often at the expense of a coherent story, like Tarantino and Kubrick. interesting how they are lauded as incomprehensible geniuses, while women who lean into a distinctly feminine aesthetic are demeaned as just girls playing with a camera.
@@Mariathinking maybe but not by the people who are criticizing the femininity of these types of films, and that’s the point-the sexist double standards. why do those people criticize overly feminine films and seem to find no value in portraying femininity but have none of those same qualms when it comes to overly masculine films?
The scene from The Virgin Suicides that truly resonated with me was when Lux woke up in the football field to find she had been abandoned by the guy who had won her heart only to toss it away as soon as he got what he truly wanted: her body. She finally gets home only to be slapped across the face by her mother. For me, this defined girlhood.
@@zapkvr Gone are the days when the vast majority of people believed the lie that women are supposed to suppress their sexual desires and are bad for having them ;)
so no one's gonna talk about how wes anderson is literally praised as a genius and a visionary for his art style but coppola is bashed for the same "pretty" aesthetic???
They are both great directors but other than having similar taste in music I see virtually nothing in common in their films. Sofía Coppola is certainly thought of as a modern day auteur. Before this UA-cam upload I have never heard any real criticism of her as a director. Even the best directors have a dud or two in their career or in the case of her father 15 or so. As an actress she has gotten some criticism but as a director she is highly respected and deservedly so.
@@ramshafarooq here's a hot take - people can share their opinions about the opinions that you also decided to share, even if they don't agree with you. pretty wild, right? otherwise i should just tell you the same thing - the people who praise wes anderson while dunking on sofia's work are just sharing an opinion. if you have a problem with it, you can ignore it. :')
Film critics often praise the gesture of 'show don't tell'. Like you mentioned there are many shots in Coppola's films that clearly show you how the characters are feeling. It's just hypocritical to just label it as a lack of substance when the portrayal is done with soft pastel colours and young women as characters.
I believe this critique is because Sofia's depiction of negative emotions women experience like sadness, hurt, anger are still portrayed through that "pretty" feminine lens that oversaturates it, while negativity portrayed in male films is shown through chaos and destruction which is more realistic, or at least not so aesthetically pleasing. It's not simply Sofia's gravitation towards aesthetic over substance, it's the style that makes ugly emotions "pretty" or more "beautiful" in a white, blond feminine way that drains the realness/substance.
@@bunnywavyxx9524 That's not completely right tho; for starting there's no such thing as a "negative emotion", each and every single one of them is useful to our psyche in a situation. It's not the same that a visual like 13 Reasons Why romantizises mental illness, than another visual like Melancholia or Virgin S**cides using a unique aesthetic to portray an emotion. I can relate more to a scene with a melancholic tone used to portray sadness than mess and chaos representing that same emotion.
@@molly3713 to most Cis white men, they are 'the default setting' so anything that isn't specifically for them is obviously special or 'not marketable'
@@Eisofice 'For these types there is no real reason to be diverse There is only white or "political" Thin or "political" Male or "political"' Straight or "political" literally anything that doesn't pander to them is political pandering! but the kind that is not okay...mmkay?
I have to disagree with the thoughts on her Marie Antoinette film. It's one of my favorite movies because one of my favorite books is Secrets of Marie Antoinette: A Collection of Letters, which I am guessing Sofia must have read before making her film. In those letters, that Marie wrote herself, mostly to her mother, it was apparent that she really was just a clueless young woman not capable of being a strong leader. She amazingly would often complain of her or her husband having stomach aches from eating too many pastries and drinking hot chocolate. She always wrote off any stresses of her political responsibilities, probably so her mother wouldn't worry. I am almost certain Sofia read this book because of the mother's narration in the film through letters. We often see historical figures as these glorious beings, so far from being human because they have gone down in history, but these letters showed that Marie was human. Years after I read that book, Sofia's Marie Antoniette came out and I loved it. In my experience, it seems strongly based on that book which was in fact historical representation written in Marie's own words about her personal thoughts on life during her private moments. I think people were expecting some type of political war drama, but it was focusing on Marie's secluded emotions. Maybe Sofia's niche is the lonely confused girl, but Marie Antoinette was actually a lonely and confused girl so it was a perfect film for her to direct, and she that seamlessly.
@@realbharbiexoxo if you haven't found it already it's just 'Marie Antionette' (or 'Marie Antionette: The Journey' in the US) by Antonia Fraser. It's available on amazon.
@@summerrose8110 Didn't you read the original comment? Marie Antoinette purposely downplayed her political struggles in her letters to her mother, meaning no historian can truly tell how she felt about it as she never wrote it down. There is evidence to show Marie Antoinette was loathed by the French for being "a foreign invader" and hated by her nation of origin (Austria) for being "a traitor" for marrying a French King. Lord knows even the most level-headed of leaders would be torn up inside when so universally disliked. In my opinion, Marie Antoinette probably overindulged to drown her sorrows and wallow in depression. I don't think "it's wrong to be depressed", but her coping methods only made her even more deeply despised. Both she and her people were at fault for their behaviour. A misunderstanding, as most things are. You're entitled to have your own opinion, but I'm entitled to say I think going to extremes in either direction (thinking she was either terrible or the best thing ever) is silly and irrational. Sometimes it's best to be a fence-sitter.
"But as the queen, she's expected to shine--be better, prettier, more stylish, more vivacious, until she's vilifed for it." It could be said for all of us women...damned if you do, damned if you don't. Damned for not meeting impossible expectations, and damned for meeting/exceeding them.
this can also be an intra community issue for women as well. internal misogyny and racism among women is a topic that doesn't get talked about in spaces the rare times women of all walks get brought together to speak about issues that effect us universally even though they are big things that women can fix themselves but tear us apart the often times. whether you rebel against or subvert expectations by being a tomboy, you get vilified for it by "girly girls" becauee you refuse to perform feminity to getting vilified because you're black and you perform feminity better than white and nonblack counterparts.
It's because nobody really cares if women actually meet the standards, more that they try to meet them. In other words, it's about control. They want to know that if they tell a woman to jump, she will obey. Then they can criticise her jumping technique just to reinforce their dominance.
Since watching Marie Antoinette, I always felt like Sofia Coppola should make a movie about the 4 Romanov girls ; Olga, Tatiana, Maria and Anastasia. I feel like she’s the only one who could truly capture their spirit, and their experience in girlhood
Why should she? As people say here, she cannot understand girls next door who are of colour, how would she understand someone from the opposite side of the world? The movie would be as fake as Maria Antoinette: Coppola's ideas, but almost no historicity. It seemingly doesn't matter which framework she'd choose, it could be Arthurian Guinevere or Henry VIII wives, but the narrative would miss everything actually relevant to the historical truth of these people. I don't really know who should depict the last Romanov princesses. I've been to Russian Mosfilm studio (my boss is friends with their librarian, I'm a librarian too), I've listened to people who work with Russian producers. I'm at least acquainted with contemporary Russian culture, me being Russian. A Romanov princesses picture would require wealth, which I can't expect of independent producers. Who, what type of team, would understand the culture, the times, while also being unbiased enough, not swayed by propaganda requirements pressure of the state?
We all can . When we don’t understand something we tend to get upset it’s not just men but all of us . Men who are more dominant can be put out as toxic women who are to strong can be put as annoying or to harsh ( mostly women of color are said to be this when it’s not true ) but still when we don’t understand something we tend to get angry and afraid
This is why I often say Issa Rae is so important because she was the first time I truly saw myself on the screen Not a slave. Not a superhero. Just a girl struggling with finding her purpose in her 20s. I love this analysis y'all! That part about the pressure of speaking for everyone because she's usually is the only woman in the room made me feel for her.
I don’t know, she has enough clout and ressources to prop up female directors like Lulu Wang, yet decides not. It makes me wonder if she genuinely cares about making sure the door stays open for those after her
and all these tv executives will say no one will be interested in watching a show about a black woman in her 20s. by no one, they mean white people, because they themselves are uninterested. my sister recommended the show to me, and it's one of my favorites now.
wolf town it sucks that white people have to see themselves in movie/tv show to care. Everything has always been about them and they can exist in all aspects of life
I think Marie Antoinette is a masterpiece. The choice to show none of the suffering and anger of the French people is deliberate and essential to its theme. We, the audience, know what is going on outside the privileged lives of the royal court but she is blissfully ignorant. I always read it very much as a reflection of growing up as part of Hollywood royalty.
Her perspective is under-represented. She is a woman and that ultra-feminine perspective in media is not really present. They judge her because they don't understand, and or they want to understand as well. Let's be honest, men are sort of repelled by femininity. Not because they dont like us. They are scared to understand a feminine woman's perspective.
That is a question I had also, Sofia is slammed for her under representation but for the most part I don't ever hear of male directors being put down for this same problem?
Many,many,many more male stories for men to see themselves in (that we will happily watch--while they say "Eww, girly films" then announce they don't understand women) - while there are so few female stories that we all demand to see ourselves in them, which is utterly unfair pressure on a female filmmaker/artist who is simply expressing their own vision. Solution is far more films by women, so we all see ourselves and feel seen.
Speaking as a Black woman, I'm actually relieved that she dropped the two Black female characters in The Beguiled. Black women in movies /TV set in the Antebellum South are usually portrayed as de-sexed mammy types meant to prop up the graceful feminity of White female protagonists. I don't have enough faith that it would be different in her adaptation - especially as her 1st time working with a POC female character. I've seen enough movies about slavery and struggle - I think its time that onscreen portrayals of Black people explore something else.
That's a super good point! Do you think perhaps it would be best to not make a movie about the confederate south at all if you as a director know you won't be able to write characters without falling into those tired narratives - and since there's the added risk of either completely erasing or even glorifying (With movies like The Patriot)? I wonder if The Beguiled could have been re-set in a completely different era so that BIPOC erasure/stereotyping wouldn't have to happen at all and we'd still get the same story...
Ok but is there is a reason there isn’t one black character in the virgin Suicides or Lost in Translation? Or why stop there? Not a single minority. Not a single brunette or overweight person. This is a sick lady.
Nia Johnson I agree. If someone doesn’t have the range to depict historical women of color than they really shouldn’t do it, and she herself claimed in an interview that she more or less didn’t have the range to adequately depict them. I’m okay with that as I’m pretty sure I simply would have been insulted by it. As it is I actually like her movies, and I’m one of the few people who lied her role in Godfather.
I remember being 15 years old at the doctor's while feeling heavily depressed and this 40 yo man told me " you have such a depressed sad beauty that boys love". Now im 25 and only now understand it.
Kinda weird how Marie Antoinette was apparently criticised for bending history to benefit emotional and thematic resonance... when 2018's "The Favourite" was applauded for the exact same thing. Not implying that The Favourite is a bad film or deserves such criticism! (I love both movies.) Just pointing out the difference in critical reception. I hope this is just 'cause tastes have changed between 2006 vs 2018.
Not so much that critics' tastes have changed, since they are not a monolith and rarely agree on anything actually, at least in the specifics. But rather this is a reflection in the new generation of critics that have come into the forefront in the twelve years between the two films. Those critics grew up liking films like Marie Antoinette.
Marie Antoinette walked so The Favourite could run!😉 but I totally remember being SOOPER underwhelmed by MA when I saw it in theatres. And now it is my official favorite movie of all time so...again, I'd bet I'm not the only one!
As an avid fan and defender of Sofia Coppola, I find it insane how people seem to put her down just to elevate her father and his status. Sofia does have a problem with POC representation, but so does the majority of iconic directors in this industry, those being mostly white, cis, straight men. As a POC myself, I’m really confident that Sofia will grow from that criticism, specially considering how sensitive and subtle she can handle difficult topics. But again, pointing your fingers to the one woman in the room and claiming that she’s the only racist in there just shows that prejudice has more than one single form.
Tvkc 2qd3d45d You’re absolutely right. There have been several white male directors who made it clear they had no intention of putting PoC in any of their movies “unless it was necessary “. She came right out and said she didn’t have the range to do so, and decided to stay in her lane. She said she lacked the confidence for it, and sticks with what she’s familiar, but you’re right, one day she will have the range, and I’m looking forward to what we’re going to see , and she will say when she adds woc to her movies, even if it pisses me off.
i remember when I first watched The Virgin Suicides, I was around 13 years old and what made me the saddest while having had watched this film, is knowing that everyone in town saw these young women as nothing more than just frivolous teens until they passed and i felt even after their passing, they still didn’t understand the kaleidoscopic emotions and feelings to being a young woman i’m latina and grew up in a predominately black community, so it was almost comforting to know that these young white ‘privileged’ girls, what society has showed as most redeeming, still felt obscured and tossed aside but it was the worst type of comfort because although you’re glad you’re not alone, you would never wish other young girls to feel just as exploited, criticized, and driven to their own deaths and this movie and the way it was shot, which i felt was so natural and authentic, made me come to terms with what i already knew but didn’t want confirmed at such a young age that women will never be enough on society’s term, just a constant fight between of not being enough or being too much
Well said! I really relate to that last line: "women will never be enough on society's terms, just a constant fight between not being enough or being too much."
The female collective sent me here.I don't know what gender I am currently.AI scanned my brain and downloaded me into some chip or other mums the word.
"But as the queen, she's expected to shine -- be better, prettier, more stylish, more vivacious -- until she's vilified for it." I feel like this is why a woman has a hard time finding a balance for herself between her personal appearance and her profession/career. If she dedicates too much time to her appearance, the mostly patriarchal professions will not notice her for her talent. If she looks like she doesn't dedicate enough time on her appearance, she will be labelled as "Plain Jane". Every woman wants to be taken serious for her talent, and not for her appearance. But she also runs the risk of being criticised by those who might think she only got to where she is in her career because of her appearance, and not because of her talent. Why should a woman have to give up one or the other? Why should she have to choose between the two?
As a Black woman, Sofia is the last person on earth that should be writing about things she doesn’t know, like, Black people. Additionally, I am tired of the ‘strong’ Black woman trope so that softness would not have shown through in the Beguiled for a Black character.
I have a question regarding writing black characters portrayed with fragile femininity. Can writers like Sofia write in similarly like one of her usual soft white women but just make her black? Is there a prime distinction between “fragile feminine” women of different races? I ask because I feel like a lot of these white writers skip out on writing in black characters because they think it’s hard and only how different they are to black people come to mind and that they are always struggling and have to be social justice warriors or if it’s a movie set more in the pasts as slaves. They never seem to realize that there are black people who didn’t grow up in poverty and overly racist environments but grew up just like them in a middle class suburb and were just soft feminine women.
I honestly feel embarrassed that I've never realized that I really only see black women portrayed as strong, sometimes sexless, characters. Rarely are there soft, gentle black women characters
@@wizard185081 I believe that even if you grew up in hard times you can still be soft. She doesn't have to ignore harsh realities to make a character soft and when it comes to Black characters you shouldn't ignore their pain to make them gentle. Take Kerry Washington in Django or Kiki Layne in If Beale Street Could Talk, both fragile female characters. Even all of Sophia's characters experience pain but are still seen as feminine. There are nuances that she as a white writer might miss if she doesn't consult experts or do extensive history but as a director/writer she should be expected to do that.
Are there any movies directed by POC with the “pretty aesthetic?” We can hope that Coppola does better with poc in the future but we can’t rely on her, she’s a rich, white woman who grew up extremely privileged. What is she going to know about poc experiences? Let’s instead support POC directors and encourage their visions.
I am a huge fan of Sofia Coppola. However, she can't win either way it would seem. If she tried to tell stories about more people of color then she would receive backlash. If she included the only black character as a slave she would also receive backlash. So, it makes sense why she only tells stories about what she knows, and decided to remove the slave character. People are always complaining that people of color are cast as slaves in films and they also complain when "non-people of color" tells the stories of people of color. So, in short, it seems that no matter what she does she can't win. People say not having a black slave in this film during this time period is "unrealistic", however, those same people tend to praise fictional shows like Bridgerton, which is filled with people of color. I think we should be sure that we are examining art in an unbiased way.
This was a great multi-facetted look at a director which didn't ignore her problematic aspects like racism and nepotism. I do want to suggest that the reason so many women in positions of power got there due to nepotism is because other avenues to success, already narrow for anyone, are all but closed to women. Becoming a producer and director requires buy ins from big rich guy run studios, who have to see you as a sort of genius leader, qualifications women aren't usually seen as possessing. I mean that doesn't really bear on Coppola's competence at all, just a side thought: there's gatekeeping at work. It also occured to me watching this how art produced by women is almost always interpreted through the lens of looking at the woman's individual life, while work produced by men (or, well, white men) is usually dis-associated from the individual and looked at as being a part of society, etc, maybe because the experience of white men is so normalized that it becomes invisible in the work. This is a phenomenon that's been written about before as it pertains to other female artists.
I'd actually rather not be a slave again (not me specifically but I'm sure you get it) I can't feel empowered by the same thing every single time, I'm tired of being seen as "the strong black woman" all the time, I wanna be delicate because I am delicate. It's not that I'm weak and don't want to be strong, it's just that I can't be strong all the time y'know?
Exactly, I don't understand why it's so hard for white people to understand that black women are not just people who take little and make the best out of it. We are human, we have many more sides, we are feminine not only sexy or the mammy type. I'm just really tired of writers giving only the strong black woman who's barely ever happy.
There is strength in vulnerability, in being heartfelt, sensitive, empathetic, emotional and delicate. You are a strong woman, who lives, and feels. Our definition of "strong" is wrong. It is defined by patriarchy, because that is how they define themselves!
i like this comment. it’s not that she seized to cast a black woman in the beguiled out of spite, but she simple shouldn’t be asked to delegate the weight of something on a topic she doesn’t have the knowledge on. the media needs more poc representation as a whole, strong women, delicate women, every type of damn women there is. the lack of female directors in the film industry really begins to show with sofia’s backfire on her own films.
Writing 'feminine' stories and emotions is actually harder. It is much easier to write a thriller or even a critical piece. The women who can invoke the delicate emotions, of love, of betrayal or helplessness and hopelessness through sheer imagery - the delicate balance of agency and restraint in the protagonist are truly masterful.
everyone who disparages sofia coppola but loves other aesthetic-focused male directors like her ex Spike Jonze or Wes Anderson should really wonder why they have it so hard to relate to girls in the same social/economic landing as their male counterparts. i have never watched a sofia coppola film whole. recently i saw the three godfather movies and indeed, her acting was really bad and im sure (comparing it to winona ryder's acting in dracula) the originally cast actress couldnt have done much better anyway. it was a badly written role from the start, one with potential but with no actual personality beyond "martyr". i have seen ten minutes of lost in translation, an hour and a half of marie antoinette and an hour of the virgin suicides. the latest one actually hooked me in; it gave me this feeling of unease and unpredictability ive grown to expect from people like lynch. theres a strong alienation indeed, one that ive seen in other movies like fight club, yet more aesthetized as in american beauty and american psycho (both relating to apparently a very "american" feeling) but while those two movies are deeply entrenched on masculine social mores (and id go even further and say that american beauty does little to actually reach any conclusion regarding it, while american psycho, directed by a woman, is much more able to see masculinity through a different lens), sofia coppolas movies do touch on experiences that i seldom see in movies; limited to disney princess musicals, short music videos, a couple forgotten teen movies. mind you, my teenage experience was very, very unlike the characters of sofia coppola's (im not from the US, im not pretty and blonde, i am not likable or thin and being a teen in the 2000s meant awful fashion choices) but the ennui, the one which i could only find in male characters at the movies, was there. i honestly dont know why sofia coppola remade the beguiled when the most obvious choice for her was to remake picnic at hanging rock (another rookie mag teenage fantasy beloved). i think she must be the only director in hollywood who gets what not even its own horny director could understand about it: behind the mystery and the beauty theres the desire to escape. thats why people watch her, their movies in the first place.
I really love your point about the loving fixation many film fans have for male directors with a similar visual language. I have been frustrated by the criticism leveled at her films that only amounts to "it's too visually/aesthetically driven :///" like bruh.....it's a film. You can really tell that Coppola found her artistic footing as a photographer before transitioning into film
I think Virgin Suicides was able to hold my attention because (much like Fight Club/American Psycho) it had a incredible book to rest on. The great story was already there, and she illustrated it beautifully. I have such a hard holding interest with her other films. Much like Wes Anderson the characters seem more like paper dolls than humans. Now, Portrait of a Woman on Fire’s depiction of a female admiration of women was so fierce it actually shifted my appreciation of my own femininity and the women around me.
I think we should not delegate representation of young black women to Sofia Coppola, who is extremely good in her representation of what is her experience and what she knows, but can't objectively depict the stuggles of young p.o.c women because she doesn't know them, being a white, privileged woman. There should be more space for more female directors, and especially for the plenty of talented women of colour ready to tell their stories and depict them truthfully. One woman should not have the burden to represent anyone simply because the industry is too sexist to even think about let more than one woman be famous and recognized on a worldwide level.
Couldn't agree more. There should be an artistic freedom and let the equal opportunity to correct the misrepresentation of groups. This is a better way than the current forced representation, which probably does more harm than good.
Thankfully Netflix is evening the score. Many of the movies and shows on Netflix offer very diverse accounts of life. There's Dear White People, Pose, the 3%, Chambers and many other offerings that center around POC. If you haven't checked out their menu, you should probably give it a try.
I watched virgin suicides 3 weeks ago and I think about it every night before I go to bed. Something about it haunts me, and it’s because of how much I resonate with the film. It’s almost as if I am horrified that I could relate to such depressing material - how could I, a supported young woman feel as hopeless as these trapped girls? I suppose I am shocked that there is such a film that encapsulates the suffering of being a young girl so accurately. The Lisbon sisters were always supported. But it was through this support they were trapped. Trapped by the men that chased them, trapped by their parents for wanting to protect their innocence. I feel with the Lisbon sisters as I am trapped by the need I am told I must have for male validation. That I must be beautiful to look at but still intelligent and self resilient. I cannot be to loud, to confident, but if I am not individualistic then I am boring and undesirable. I am trapped by people telling me what to do and trying to protect me just as the Lisbon sisters were. I am trapped by the support I am supposed to be grateful for but that ultimately suffocates me. Sofia speaks to girls like me. Her work will live on me forever. They make me feel less alone, more understood, and are beautiful universal visualizations of the truly confusing existence of being a girl.
Marie Antoinette is still one of the most beautiful films I’ve ever seen. Every scene is marvelous. Eye candy with a mix of sadness. Oh, and the soundtrack is badass.
Coppola, when she restricts her storytelling to what she knows, is showing respect to the minorities with which she is unfamiliar. She prefers not to misrepresent people's narratives and I appreciate that. It shows how sensitive she is to their walks of life and the fact that outsiders can never truly understand what they go through, much less tell their stories. As a man, it took me a while to learn this. But I am not the person to say which is best between misrepresentation and erasure for this exact reason. Great video!
On the contrary, she has the power to platform other creatives of colour and give them the opportunity to showcase and share their experiences. Films can be collaborative, and they do not have to be driven by a single voice or point of view. Thus, her justification for not wanting to misrepresent the experiences of WoC or PoC feels like complacency and laziness, rather than actual respect and sensitivity.
@@mihir9632 I see your point. However authorship is the foundation, mostly, of the artistic expression. Although there are some high quality collective creations, an artist that chooses to maintain their vision on their craft is not without reason to do so. This is precisely why, in my opinion, we can only have a diverse cultural "zeitgeist" when we have authors, directors, actors etc. from diverse backgrounds. Asking a rich, white woman born into the most influential family in cinema to accurately tell the truth of a minority of which she's not a part is both unfair to her and quite possibly problematic to this very minority. But I agree when you say that she should use her platform to empower those who don't have one. If I'm not mistaken, Tarantino produced a film - don't remember which - from some people he tutored and it got some attention for this very reason. She could do this for PoC, women specially.
Her last two films The Beguiled AND The Bling Ring were white washed. It's a conscious choice she makes to erase these people of color. Historical accuracy doesn't matter to me unless it's actively erasing marginalized people to instead spotlight white disposition.
Sony XA1 I agree. As a Black Woman, I’m sort of glad she didn’t try and also admitted she didn’t know enough to do it. She’s aware of her shortcomings as a director and stays in her lane, which is fine. Id have been more insulted if she’d done it and got it horribly wrong.
Coppola follows one of the most basic rules when writing. Write about what you know. And that's a smart thing. She knows her talents and limitations and that I something important. She has the ability to situate a story in aesthetic environments while narrating situations and characters full of deep emotions that find themselves in moments of transition and self awareness. Ultimately, what she tells us is that "pretty things can be full of sadness or melancholia". Which is something that she's incredibly aware of. Sadness and unfulfillment in plain sight when you have a beautiful atmosphere are difficult to identify. And that, in my opinion, is what she's trying to convey.
Yes I agree 100% Just this summer a writer got torn apart and her book panned because she tried to write a character of a different race than her. Her career is basically over. Cindy reads, an Asian girl booktuber, did a great video on it. It can't be both ways. You (not you specifically a general you) can't vilify white people for writing minority characters and then vilify them for not writing minority characters. Especially when they are far more likely to have their careers ruined by trying to write a minority character because then everyone says they don't get to speak for minorities. So which is it? Do you want white people to try to create minority characters or do you want white people to stay in their lane? Whatever it is that's fine but it can't be both.
@@WhitneyDahlin oh my God. People want minority characters that are actually human nor stereotypes. And PoC are much more than struggles. The mere fact you are trying to frame the inclusion of minorities as a challenge is mind boggling. A character can simply be x,y,z while asian,latino, or black.. if an author doesn't understand all the intricacies that racism may have on a character it is in their best interest to not speak on and focus on other shit, because once again, in clearer language PoC ARE NOT JUST THE STRUGGLES WE FACE DUE TONOUR RACE. Yes, it plays a role, but I also spend my time worrying about everyday humdrum shit too.
One of the girly shows that is set in historic turmoil that I love the most is Derry Girls. It's set in northern Ireland in the 80s and it's mail characters are girly girls in a religious all girls school. It's really good and I recommend it to everyone.
I remember seeing Marie Antoinette when I was 17 years old or so. I didn't particularly liked it (nor my girlfriend at the time did), and I found it to be specially slow and boring. Now, almost 15 years later, I can still recall ir vividly; even though I haven't watched it again since. And on those almost 15 years, thinking about that movie (randomly and sparingly), I believe I reached on my own the same conclusions as you did. It now has a special place in my heart, and I love the way that you covered it.
Visually it’s a masterpiece. The performances are nicely done. I think the end lacked ... something. I love watching clips of it on UA-cam but I haven’t rewatched it completely.
when i heard “sophia coppola should have included a slave character in her movie so black women could see themselves depicted in a soft feminine way” i had to pause and exit the video. like that’s genuinely one of the worst justifications for representation i’ve ever heard. like not to hate on you or your content but please just think that sentence through for a moment
i agree, what the hell, why are poc only portrayed suffering and that is then considered positive representation why? i dont think sofia could have won in this situation
i found these two women to be very difficult to listen to, but i watched the video anyway & got something out of it, not being very familiar with Coppola's films.
Nah. Their work is completely different. Coppola’s films are meditative and atmospheric. Anderson’s are, I dunno, not that at any rate. The only thing they have in common really is their lack of POC.
well, no. although wes and coppola both are very focused on the aesthetic side of their films, wes uses it for comedic purposes while coppola is more introspective. but wes is praised for it and coppola bashed :(
i honestly think the only thing they have in common is being quirky aesthetes. their visuals aren't even that similar (the structural compositions of their shots are basically opposite imo), and they def use their unique visuals to very different purposes - wes is way more focused on comedy, sofia more quietly meditative. maybe i'm missing something though?
Sofia Coppola and Wes Anderson knew each other in the '90s, which is how Jason Schwartzman was cast in Wes Anderson's "Rushmore". Jason Schwartzman is Sofia Coppola's cousin.
here's the weird thing: I never saw her work as "girly"... just quiet, moody, and evokes that weird sort of dread that an adult would feel when looking at a kid about to screw up like he/she did when he/she was at that age oh, and she's a master at putting the perfect soundtrack for scenes
As a black woman im actually relieved she didn’t put black slaves in. Media is powerful and seeing black people in slavery is played out and affects us in ways some of my fellow black girls don’t understand. The “strong black woman” trope is tiring and dangerous. Good on her for seeing her limitations and not pushing it.
10:30 black woman seeing themselves in a coppola movie and as soft & feminine would be wonderful. I miss this kind of media representation. I just found out that she scraped a black & biracial women and i am disappointed.
What I wouldn't give to see a movie about black girlhood given softness and dreamy colors. (And I can almost feel Hollywood recoil and flail in confusion at how to? show black woman?? not downtrodden????????)
I would recommend going up and reading Nia Johnson's comment about how the choice of taking out the POC women was better than having them included, mainly because people are tired of the usual Black Woman stereotypes of the Antebellum South already. I think it really highlights how self-aware and self-conscious Coppola is that she would stick to her strengths and not try to write POC characters that she wasn't confident enough to do full justice.
I guess there is nothing wrong to show women vulnerabilities in the essence of "soft pink" aesthetic picturesque. There is strength in that despite her incapability to show adequate number of people of color. There is depth in every surface, and Sofia Coppola managed that through the uncertainty of being a teenage girl.
I'd actually say though that it's that standardizing of 'being teenage girl' and 'women vulnerabilities' being associated with being a white woman that's questionable. Because it confronts the bigger question of how gender is racialized. Her work is great, but her work is not to show women vulnerabilities, but white women vulnerabilities and that's distinctly different. To conflate the two, is to omit girls of color from the human experience of being a 'teenage girl', by participating in their erasure in the gender binary.
NightSky thank you for letting me know, I had no idea. Lol what I’m saying is when we use descriptors like “feminine” and “soft” to describe her movies we are really talking about whiteness, affluence, thinness etc. And the way I see her being propped up as the filmmaker for female sensibility should be questioned
Amira Olingou I think you’re overreacting, with all respect. She does represent vulnerableness and softness and using white women because that is her world and that’s how she expresses herself. Her movies are very personal. But she’s not the only director in the world and her movies are not the sole representation of femininity. White people are a minority, there are movies made all over the world and Hollywood where women of colour are soft and feminine ( or not, with every right ). I don’t know who thinks only white women are this way 😳
@@LovelyDay11 I'm not talking about her nor her intent. I'm talking about the discourse surrounding femininity in films representing the western canon and the material consequences of this discourse.
I understand the concept of only "writing what you know" and Sofia seems honest as to why she excluded the slave character, but something rubs me the wrong way when everyone in the comments is defending "only writing what you know" when historical period films rely on the director delving into something that they most definitely don't know about first hand, yet they still take on the challenge. Why don't more directors take on that challenge with POC characters?
Somebody else made the comment that the people who criticize Sofia Coppola for cutting out the black female slave character in "The Beguiled" because of the historical inaccuracy are the same people who praise a show like "Bridgerton".
@@AmandaFromWisconsin Well Sofia did choose/go for historical accuracy, if you watch the film it's extremely dark because she only wanted to film with the natural lighting they had at the time, and they do address the slaves; they ran away. Whereas Bridgerton (which has its own problems) chooses an imaginary world where POC and white nobility mix. But I'm not really harping on ✨historical accuracy✨, it's that there was a black character already there and she's cut out, and the biracial teacher is whitewashed. Like, what the heck.
sweetie, they are white so of course they would say that why do you think your comment has so little likes white the comments with black women defending her are beloved
@@AmandaFromWisconsin there is a huge difference between creating a fictional world that is set during a historical time period, and writing a fictional story that takes place in a very real world that is MEANT to be historically accurate. Nice try though.
as someone whos white, i'll ask people of the same ethnicity of my characters of their experiences and to help me write them. i think why others don't want to write is because they're too afraid of coming off as rude or offensive which i don't think is a bad thing.
On one hand, yeah there should've been a black character. But I would rather a privileged person who KNOWS they can't tell a proper story about a black character quit than try and fail and bolster stereotypes or racism in the process. I would've told her to consult the few primary or secondary sources we have of black women during the time.
agreed! There are so many talented poc directors that depict the struggle and stories of poc that people can relate to! I wouldn’t think Sofia Coppola would really be praised just for including poc. As a poc I see her movies as a general and universal struggle of feeling engaged and isolated for ex. Virgin suicides. It would feel off to have her depict a poc story without any knowledge and gain more recognition for it than an actual POC director who depicts similar experiences. For ex. Barry Jenkins the director of Moonlight. An amazing poc director that portrays a quite similar auora in a sense the cinematography has that blue ghostly cast feeling.
who act as if this was a original story! the black characters were ALREADY there, the blueprint was there. she just didn’t want a black lead and i don’t respect her anymore smh.
@@cindykpower but racial diveristy isn't the end of it. the quality of that diversity needs to be taken into question as well. its not enough to just have minorities "there".
You can't really fault Coppola for the lack of diversity in her films because, like you said, her characters come from a place she knows and has lived through. Diversifying the cast for the sake of diversity would ultimately fail because it is unlikely she'd do those characters any justice. It's best to leave those narratives to directors of colour that can actually do it and do it well.
Yeah it’s a “damned if you do dammed if you don’t” situation. If Coppola includes POC she’ll be criticized for not understanding POC . Coppola will be criticized for being a white women, writing roles for a group of people she doesn’t know & could never relate to. If Coppola doesn’t include POC then she’s in trouble for not having a diverse cast
Sure, but is it really so impossible to just find people of color who can comment on that experience and advise you? She also consciously chose to make a movie in that setting, deriving a work which originally included POC.
I feel like while Coppola does this with white female adolescence euphoria manages to do this for a much more diverse set of teens. She puts her own personal lens into perspective which gives her an advantage for certain things but I think we need to recognize the nuances in her work. She can’t be responsible for everyone we need to let more women in with different point of views to capture what it means to be woman.
The reality is it’s not always about being a woman or lacking talent, rather where are the resources and opportunities to begin with. I would definitely love to see a review of her work from a WOC.
There’s just no way she can go right. If she had included a slave in The Beguiled she would have been criticized for not portraying her correctly. Also what’s wrong with only portraying what you know? I think that’s the most humble position you can take. She can’t speak for people less privileged than her because she doesn’t know what their reality is like. She sticks to speak about her privilege in a way that is self-criticizing which I think is the smartest thing she could do.
Emilia Anderson Agreed! She basically said she didn’t have the range and stated in her lane and I appreciate that more than trying and failing horribly at any depiction of woc. I disagree about the dwontroddeness of woc though. It doesn’t need to be like that, and sometimes it isn’t!
But she can quite literally put actresses of color in her films, that’s nothing to do with what you know. She’s actively choosing to hire and portray white women.
I just don't think woc should be erased from stories for the sake of directors comfort level with these characters. Represent historical stories as fairly as possible, even if the story is from the skewed perspective of the privileged white character. She can learn and collaborate. I would rather she represent the thoughtless, casual racism of privileged people, on the side, than completely dismiss POC's existance.
The thing is SHE CAN’T WIN in this argument unless it was co-produced, co-directed, written by a female person of color...Or is she removes herself from the film entirely. There is a bias against her because of her body of work, her privilege and her choice of muse-a very white, very blonde Kirsten Dunst. If she does as this video essay suggest, I bet she’ll be accused as patronizing or using black characters as props since the main characters are all white women. If she is not confident with how to portray “nuanced” black characters, why force her?
I am caribbean so maybe my comprehension of skin color might be different from the american perspective but Sofia Coppola is my favorite director and being a black person watching her films (because of how delicately she deals with the topic of being a confused, sad, and lonely as a girl) it calls my attention how she relates perfect blonde super pale white blue eyes females with her stories when she doesn't even look like that. I think sofia c has so much dependency on how she understands (maybe for laziness who knows) that her kind of delicate portraits of women can only be shown trough the eyes of that kind of females because thats the only people she understands than can be like that, not even the ones that look more like her and I think that is the reason why she doesnt feel comfortable doing things with other skin colors.
Marie Antoinette is genuinely the most beautiful movie I've ever seen. The shots, costumes, music, lighting, everything is utter perfection. I wished she did more with the "gilded cage" commentary and her relationship with her husband but I can't fault her for anything else. Its just too beautiful and thoughtful to be degraded. Frankly though, I really didn't like her stylistic and narrative choices in Virgin Suicides, but it is probably just personal taste as opposed to lack of skill
She is actually a truly great mind. But just because she was born a rich woman everyone is Hellbent on making her out to be this shallow silly girl. Poor thing. Also I don’t think she is not inclusive. She is being respectful. She knows it’s not her place to write about other women’s experiences. It is the right, educated thing to do.
I hope you have gotten healthy from the brainworms that had you claiming writers should exclusively write copies of themselves as characters. What kind of backwards, bookbruning ass mentality is that?
I would do the same thing, I am not a black women so i will never experience what they went through, I would have to have a writer with those experiences. Like you said she probably thought it wasn't her place
Nailed to the point. Summarises audiences double standards. You respect it and stay out of such a certain depiction - you're ignorant and not inclusive. As soon as you try to be inclusive, you get it completely wrong and misunderstand the struggles of certain women. Artists do art for themselves, it's not their job to include every persons experience in their vision. You just find someone to resonate with. Nobody cares whether or not indie directors like Paul Thomas Anderson or Noah Baumbach have POC in their storytelling? Same applies for other male filmmakers? The problem isn't that directors don't want to be inclusive, the problem lies within the industry unwilling to give spotlight to certain artists who would be able to retell certain narratives properly, that's a totally topic however.
Awfully presumptuous given that men are frequently denigrated in Hollywood for similar reasons. But sure, keep playing that note and see how it sounds.
I really appreciate the aesthetic of the shots of you, the narrators, feels like it really fits the topic at hand, and for some reason the choice framing and distance from the camera feels kind of fresh and unusual, har to put into words why though. I guess and hope it was intentional and inspired by Coppola? :) Anyway, insightful as always, thank you for all the hard work on this!
there's room for all the 2 dimensional usually white macho man and adolescent boy story lines and ppl get their knickers in a twist over rare and popular young women's story lines calling them vapid because they're what, misogynists
Oh my, Dunst has the exact face and aura that emanates fr the Coppola canon, if you will. It's lovely and soft, but memorable and compelling somehow, despite regular or perhaps unspectacular individual facial features. I find her quite beautiful. And her characters and ensembles all come together so strikingly; they stick in the mind in exactly the way Coppola's meditative yet intense narratives seem to do... She is an actress that I think has an old world glamour and will be able to continue to hold our on-screen attention as she ages gracefully.
To me, there's nothing appealing or captivating about Kirsten. Perhaps bc she fits the bland white girl aesthetic? Like she could be any girl yet one who happens to be placed in a pedestal, so she's relatable that way.
I feel like there’s always a kind of dreamy melancholic unreachable look in her eyes and in her expression... that might really fit into the characters Copolla has her played
This was a brilliant visual essay, thank you, ladies. I think Coppola's film definitely has a distinct quality that absolutely does have a place in the analysis of woman/girlhood and is existence in the world. That being said I don't purposefully seek out or enjoy Coppola's work. As a black woman, I have lived a lifetime of having images of beautiful and tragic privileged white women rammed down my throat presenting considerations that I've never had acknowledged and elements of wispy romanticism that I will never achieve. In fact, your analysis from 10:23 - 10:33 nailed it perfectly! Where are the romantic depictions of black woman/girlhood that don't also involve some deeply tragic racial and or sexual violence?! The criticism of Coppola by male critics is fascinating; she's allowed to be the only woman in the room because of her background and privilege but the other male occupants of the room will forever remind her that she's only a woman and therefore should know her place. There would be a vacuum for this type of work if it didn't exist because it actually provides a counterfoil to the harsh patriarchal imagery we've had to endure as meaningful and righteous for so long!
POC representation shouldn't be sofia's responsibility especially since she's so idiosyncratic for writing purely and truly exactly what she knows. I think to bring in the awareness of the underclass, minorities or slaves would've distracted from her point of view of privileged obliviousness she's showing - we never even saw the revolutionaries in marie antoinette, our focus still remained on her and what she was feeling which was fear for herself at the time. A self absorbed point of view of this enclosed space is what you get from a sofia coppola movie so why try and change her instead of watching directors who will show what you want? It's also patronising to assume everyones going to react to art as if it were propaganda, my sympathies are still going to lie with the underclass of france lmao. Point of views are in abundance and they shouldn't instill a sense of lacking in you for your own. You can see the oppressors side and still go back to your life knowing they're an oppressor its ok.
This was SO well made. There should be a pastel council where we all kindly talk about these things and move forward with history. Beautiful work, I'm a fan now!
As an early 30s, mostly male presenting, person of color I am not at all what would be considered Coppola's "demographic", whatever that means these days, but I'll chime in. She's a favorite of mine. Bar none. What people deem superficial & vacuous about her films is precisely the point. I've shown "Bling Ring" to several friends because I find the handling of celebrity, the public's gaze to that celebrity & the need to be famous for fame's sake-by any means necessary-both intoxicating & revolting in equal measure. Think Lindsay Lohan walking to court in slow motion wearing all white as camera bulbs flash all around her. She's telling us that what we revere & then devalue-through a usually male gaze-is precisely what has us fucked up; that we can-& usually do-take these acts of scopophilia into places that are destructive of ourselves & each other. This is where she implicates us all. This is Coppola at her most universal. Her inability to see beyond her white, cis-gendered, heteronormative & outrageously privileged upbringing is also part of her art. The fact that she can't see beyond her privilege to treat anyone else not in her immediate circle, if she treats them at all, as anything other than a prop is telling us volumes about privilege itself: that it is not as grand & empowering as we think it is but actually incredibly myopic. She treats many of her other films & their subjects in much the same way. She appears to say that what shimmers might not be gold but might actually even be shit. Think about a drunken Stephen Dorff getting a blow job right before falling asleep mid-way at the Chateau Marmont. I started this review with her more recent films but this also goes for The Virgin Suicides. An absolute favorite since the moment I saw it. I knew Coppola was onto something upon first viewing. Ever wonder why the visuals are so lush yet the story so dark? Why the Lisbon girls' story is told by boys in retrospect? Why the Lisbon sisters' narrative is over before it even began? Coppola has both the ability to call upon her toxic upbringing & denounce it while also giving us glimpses into how this toxicity affects people outside her immediate circle by proxy (Think Scarlett Johansson ordering at a Japanese restaurant & how she treats the Japanese culture in 'Lost In Translation'). She started with a seed of these themes in her early oeuvre but then expanded upon them. To take your privilege & denounce it-instead of merely leaning into it-takes serious cojones.
It's so gross how Coppola's "pretty" and "girlish" aesthetic has always been instantly regarded as "vapid", ONLY BECAUSE it's an aesthetic that stereotypically parallels girlhood. Like, people disregard it as if it has no value only because, on a surface level, it matches their preconceptions of gender. So, what, a girl can't release a "girly" movie without it being regarded as "girly"? Why can't it be regarded as the CREATIVE CHOICE that it is? I guarantee if a dude was to release a film with an aesthetic like that, critics would be quick to analyse and deconstruct the 'meaning' behind it, even if it has none. And if a dude releases a film that is overly masculine, no one bats an eye at the possibility that it might be totally vapid (most blockbusters are examples of this). Sofia Coppola has proven herself an excellent director, CLEARLY. I just feel terrible that, while men are praised for bold directorial choices, she is disregarded purely on the basis of her gender.
"You're entranced with the beauty of these films as you're watching them, and struck with melancholy for days after" Oh my God YES. I watched the virgin suicides twice a few years apart and both times I felt melancholic and strangely sad and apathetic for 2 days after. And I knew it was the movie. Sophie's movie have such an impact I cannot explain!
personally the virgin suicides and marie-antoinette are both two of my favorite films, I absolutely adore her soft aesthetic and as a black woman I took alot of inspiration from them. im still a bit new into this film exploration and learning all the film directors and such but i plan on becoming a film director myself and creating my own show about the struggles of growing up, loneliness and addiction and it's very exciting for me, i will bring black representation to the screen in ways i hardly see spoken about
Lana is a great artist in my estimation and she's asking questions a bit awkwardly and naively - but that's how people learn. As a feminist and a woman of colour I embrace her and hopes she realises there is definitely a place in feminism for her.
Amazing video and analysis, you make me want to watch every movie that apears In the video, even after showing many negative critiques, you manage to convince me to dedicate my time to her works.
I love how art from the female perspective involves the inner turmoil that women experience trying to understand their place within the patriarchy. Virginia Woolf relates this as well as Bronte with the downfall of their characters when they fail to do so. I feel Sofia nails this concept beautifully.
In my opinion The Beguiled doesn't have to be an all embracing dissertation on the social and political situation of the South, but just a story about this very specific group of girls. Even if a black character surely would have been interesting, I find Coppola's argument valid. The Beguiled is not a film about the tragedy of slavery and I would have probably found it quite offensive if the problem wasn't addressed properly, so probably Coppola chose the wisest course.
So simply by including the characters who were meant to be in this story in the first place then suddenly she’s directing a dissertation on socio politics in the South? I’m so tired of these kind of excuses and justifications. It’s sad that it’s seen as some sort of insurmountable challenge that Coppola actually challenge herself by not purposefully erasing POC from stories and places they were in in the first place. I for one did not know about the characters she erased and I’m really disappointed.
I actually really like that first sentence. Those were some words I needed when looking at this problem. It's fiction. It's a story that someone made up. If her story was about "black" slaves, yeah, this would probably be a pretty important issue. I don't care if Sofia is telling the truth on her reasoning or not. If the only way people can tell stories about PART of that time period in PART of the arising United States of America is to leave "black" slaves out of any further films. I'm actually here for it. If it ruins the quality of those films well then maybe it's time to hang that time period up. It's been COVERED! Otherwise, let her accomplish what she is trying to accomplish thematically in whatever fictional way she wants to. As long as we're not using this in US History 101, I think we're fine, people.
@@Ms.Histrology Somebody else made the comment that I find interesting: The people who criticize Sofia Coppola for cutting out the black female slave character in "The Beguiled" because of the historical inaccuracy are the same people who praise a show like "Bridgerton".
@@AmandaFromWisconsin see that’s the problem, why do you think those two are the same? Yes both focus on bringing forward POC characters but that’s all about it honestly. People who criticize Sofia for historical inaccuracy in “the beguiled” whether they are or not the same people who champion “Bridgerton” for including POC and Black characters are not talking about the same topic. This just shows ur lack of critical thinking skills. People praise “Bridgerton” for bringing forward and giving lead roles to POC and black characters where they typically would not be found in cinema and tv in general let alone time period pieces. People who criticize Sofia for the lack of a black character for historical inaccuracy are talking about that topic exactly. If Sofia wants to make a movie about a time in history and make fiction out of it, that is completely fine. The topic of why she couldn’t add black or POC characters is yet another whole different topic. Why couldn’t she? Bridgerton’s writers are white and yet they have a diverse cast. No one is saying she can’t write fiction on a point in history we’re just saying why can’t she add diversity? It’s an excuse at this point.
i remember watching the virgin suicides for the first time age 16 and being taken a back bc it was the first time i related to a female characters because they truly acted the way that i did and the way that women in my life acted- i get the same feelings from ladybird, little women, daisies, mustang and lost in translation. these films aren’t made or about men or there ideas of what men think women should be and so they become disliked by male critics. this was the first time i’d seen a female lead outside of a romantic, happy ending love story context which is generally the only place women are represented as love interests or as leads in rom coms. it was refreshing to see young women portrayed with more purpose than to find love. for me i love her films because they represent real complex women that often don’t subscribe to any traditionally male qualities which shows that you can be a strong woman without being masculine (of course you can be a strong woman and masculine too bc all expressions of femininity are valid and beautiful)
When I read and hear men critiquing Coppola's movies by saying that they are just shallow depictions of beauty, I really pity them. Sofia Coppola is so good at portraying the inner thoughts, often despair, of characters through cinematography, it must be sad to not get to enjoy that mastery.
I feel she is strongly critiqued for a very narrow minded perspective of what the female experienced truly is in its entirety, but as other directors (mostly men) go overlooked for having that same tunnel vision of ways to tell a story, even praised for it. Truly, she is to be criticized for many reasons, her movies aren't for everyone and it's hard to relate at first glance what the deeper meaning is, the same movies are easy to never watch again or finish. But understanding a different perspective of life, especially if you are of a different gender, culture, race, sexuality, etc. can be to some impossible, but for those who have the patience and sensibility, often can. I think she does have this capacity, to understand the complexity of the female experience or a different race, but she chooses not to and that's okay.
@GiRayne Sadly, this is true. If she represents POC or not she will be criticized because women in the industry are judged on a higher standard and have no room for error. Sometimes we aren't the person to tell someone else's life experiences and that's fine, not everyone has to tell everyone else's stories.
I think it’s not ok to just use references where women of color are at the center of the story, either erurase or sideline them for her interpretations and use the same complex nuance storytelling that was meant for the WOC for privileged white women. She did that this numerous times and that’s where the problem comes in I feel a lot of people give excuses for her bc of the nostalgic, fragile feminity aesthetic she displeases in her films and while I 100% agree there’s a double standard to her and other white male directors in this exact same criticism (Christopher Nolan is a prime example for this point given that he not only whitewashed two minority Batman comic book characters for the dark knight trilogy but also the real life black British and British Indian soldiers for Dunkirk) I don’t feel that should make sofa a exceptional pass, however I will give her credit for her upcoming film on the rocks with rashida Jones as the lead role
I was obsessed with The Virgin Suicides as a teenager/young adult. It was easy to relate to the characters, not because I lived in parents such as theirs, but because of this feeling of what was understood but unspoken in ourselves. Loved the book too!
I think directors kinda forget that diversity includes not only color but also size and texture. Growing up I never saw anyone in movies who had my skin or wore my size dresses. But I can see that's all changing slowly but surly.
that's so true. its ridiculous how often directors or stylists or hair stylists dont know what to do with textured hair or make up for actors of color or plus sized people or a combination fo these to the point that actors do their own hair and make up and dont look as good as they could if only they had the right clothes.
@@Pestbringer89 I'll never understand why people make comments like yours and seem to believe they're doing something good. People's worth is not determined by what their body looks like but by their character. And based on you comment, it appears to be your character that is disgusting. I pray that you manage to find peace and healing from this hate that you harbour in your heart.
@@monkiram Well, i atleast can tell when someone is fat, he or she is really bad at setting boundaries, has weak willpower and addicted to unhealthy food.
@@Pestbringer89 No you cannot. I am a recently-graduated medical doctor with a master in public health and in undergrad I majored in neuroscience and psychology. Despite all my knowledge of medicine, psychology and public health, even I cannot claim to have such a thorough knowledge of a person based on a very vague comment that they made. I suspect that their comment was so vague because of rude people like you who take it upon themselves to make unsolicited rude replies. Firstly, you cannot know from the original comment what the original poster's nutrition status or even BMI is, making assumptions based on vague and generic statement doesn't make you smart, it just makes you presumptuous. Secondly, even if you know that somebody is obese, you certainly cannot make conclusions from this about that person's diet or activity levels let alone about their willpower or boundaries. There are countless factors that contribute to obesity, very many which are not the fault of the obese person. Even the causes that you have convinced yourself are the most salient (ie. overeating) are influenced by many upstream contributing factors. I could give you a list of all the medical causes of obesity and all of their contributing factors, but I will not waste my time on that because it is easy to google and more importantly, because I suspect you have already heard most of them already. For some reason, you chose to ignore all these facts anyway and convince yourself that being obese somehow makes somebody a bad person and that somehow makes them deserving of disrespect. Both conclusions are untrue. I'm sorry that being rude anonymously to others on the internet is what you have chosen to do with your limited time on this earth. I hope you find a more meaningful calling.
If she'd featured a Black female slave in The Beguiled (making that her first time featuring a Black woman in one of her films, I believe) I would have SCREAMED. I get your point but please don't argue that this would've been an empowering move! It would have been sooo tasteless. Otherwise, I love your analysis of how her upbringing affected her films' aesthetics and narratives!!
I dated a black woman briefly.I still don't know what was going on then.She wouldn't let me be equal to her?And I wouldn't let her be equal to me,likely in part.Dance the Melbourne shuffle,helped me past some gloom.
Hi there. For sure, but I do think a lot of the comments surrounding this are not questioning why Coppola would set a film in that time period at all if she didn't want to further any sort of stereotype. And at the least, there could have been an opportunity to hire BIPOC writers and consultants to actually bring forth a nuanced perspective - since the reason we've been inundated with stereotypes of downtrodden and 'strong Black women' is because they are most often coming from white people. So I agree that she herself shouldn't have included an enslaved character - but then perhaps don't set a movie in the Antebellum south and risk erasing an entire group of people from such a politically charged time period.
@@BroeyDeschanel why do you wanna see black people as slaves so bad? you aren't a black girl so please stfu on "they should've included blacks bc it was set in that time."
Great video, Coppola is definitely underrated and i could honestly watch Virgin Suicides and Lost in Translation on repeat. Now i want to know what you'd say about The Bling Ring too! It has that ethereal melancholy mentioned but also a very peculiar perspective, quite removed as if holding you at arms length, preventing you from fully engaging with the characters. I'm not sure many of the general public would have left that screening feeling satisfied lol
Good as always - always like the citations provided. I would recommend in the future saying enslaved rather than just saying slave bc enslaved is more humanizing. Using an adjective rather than a noun in regards to slavery I think helps people recognize that enslaved people were still people with emotions and feelings.
This is an excellent video essay! I've only seen two of Sofia Coppola's films, Lost in Translation and Marie Antoinette. I believe your analysis of Marie Antoinette is spot-on, and as she did with LiT a few years earlier, Coppola is able to make you feel what the character is feeling through her use of the camera coupled with the images she presents. Curiously I've never had a chance to see The Virgin Suicides (though I've always wanted to) and missed out on The Beguiled, but I want to see them now more than ever based on your analysis. It's troubling to me that her reasoning for not including the Black characters in her adaptation of The Beguiled is that she wouldn't do them justice. I think, if anything, the least you could is do some research, include them in the movie, and trust your actors and story-telling abilities to bring them to life, in as honest as a way as you can. I am not Black, nor do I identify as a woman, but I've always been compelled to write about and include strong women and characters of color in my short stories and films. It's the least I could do to increase inclusion and representation. And if I don't know something I do the research and/or find women and people of color to collaborate with. Anyway, it's great to see such thoughtful content on UA-cam. Subscribed!
Nobody ever talks about Lana del Rey when she releases brilliant music and videos produced and directed by her or when she shows affection and complete devotion to fans and her art or when she collaborates with amazing artists or when she donates to the New York Orchestra or the Navajo water Project or when she uplifts and promote fellow women artists. But when she complains about how she has been treated by the culture (which concerns herself only since we are incapable of feeling other people feelings) everyone judges, gives opinions and hate.
This is correct and for me, devastating in its relatability. The people and parts of society that are intent upon upholding and fortifying toxicity will essentially pretend that the only facet of a person's nature (particularly a young, beautiful, and enviable person), is that which they see as deserving their harsh criticism. It is as if no good could possibly exist nor be generated from the individual they are actively and abusively tearing down. My own brother stated this to me: "People only see the bad. No one cares that you did nine good things. They only focus on the one thing they didn't like."
I will say, Sofia's student short LICK THE STAR is one of the best I have seen, I mean it doesn't hurt that your dad is literally F.F. Coppola, but many children of great directors often don't live up to their parents.
Superb video, you've made me reconsider my previous dismissal of Ms Coppola as a purveyor of pretty glossy surfaces and made me see that, despite some flaws, she tells stories with depth and resonance. Keep up the great work (o:
FINALLY, A CHANNEL THAT ACTUALLY IS EMPATHETIC TO THOSE IT CRITICIZES. This is actually something I can take it, meditate on, and decide whether or not I agree or pen my mind to a different point of view. Your view is very central and fair, and I believe all criticisms should be this way because if you cannot take into account the reason something happened, the logic behind why something is done or was done, and the moral or other justifications that that person had, while also looking at the positive or negative effects of their actions and how it is hurtful or beneficial to certain people, your opinion is one-sided and only holds half the merit of a central view that has looked at both sides and make very few declarations about what is right or wrong, why are we entitled to make a declaration on somthing accept for what is directly concerned and only effecting us.
This was so well done Maia! Please do more director's filmography analysis like this! I would love to see your take on PTA's theme of protagonists who struggle with their masculinity as many critics have criticised PTA for simply "celebrating toxic masculinity". Keep up the good work!
Imagine how good it could be if Sofia Coppola joined together with a black director, producer, story teller, author, and provided her beautiful aesthetic dreamscapes but for a story told by a black woman. I think it's a collaboration that would be stunning- not a white woman telling that story on behalf of black women, but having the story told to her and putting it into the vision that's been detailed.
I was thinking this too. I really don't see what would've been so hard about it. The whole "I dont want to misrepresent a group of people because I don't know what its like to be them" is a valid point to make to an extent. It then falls on its face when I remember that black creators also exist and that movies by nature are collaborative and provide collaborative opportunities. I dont like having to think of the worst in people but with all of this considered , the only reasoning I could think of for why she didn't do what you described is: pure laziness or pure greed and since neither are a good look, the erasure excuse provides a way to escape both.
@@elleofhearts8471 well, I guess all we can do is hope that she sees the talk about her films being all white and decides she needs to do something about it. Because I think she does such an amazing job at showcasing that kind of dreamy and sad female mentality, she has to understand that it's female, not just white female (nor even just cis female)
I'm sorry to sound this dissonant note of criticism against an otherwise perfect analysis of Coppola's work but...I didn't need to see black slaves in The Beguiled. Seen enough of it, no thank you, no more. I didn't even know there was a black slave character originally in the book but if she's not in it here? I'm good. I'm not missing out on anything I can't find anywhere else. For all this talk of wanting to see historically accurate representation on screen, little mind is ever paid to how it actually _feels_ for someone who looks like the person on screen to be perpetually depicted in chains or without free will. For just a moment imagine what that must be like. Spoiler alert: you can never enjoy period drama ever again because you don't _want_ to picture yourself there. If Coppola decided to colour the story Antoinette with a brush of the personal experience and focus in, as you say, on the queen as a person, why not grant her other films this same olive branch? Her artistic vision is allowed ooooonly when there's characters that aren't white and ideally, darker skin, so as to preemptively please and represent everyone. Is that the fate of cinema and art to come? So often I've seen comments acquiesce, 'Well if the artist doesn't know how to do proper representation and can't speak on such complex experiences, if she just wants to tell her story through a character, she should just stay in her lane!' I ask - is this not exactly that? Coppola is using what she knows, what she's experienced, in her life and her career, and widening that lens to talk about the larger issue of female suppression experienced by all women, of all walks of life. If she makes good and true art, it will speak to me. I can picture myself as Antoinette. I can imagine what it must be like to be so suffocated and lacking agency during the Civil War. Coppola will have done her job. I do not expect and I cannot stand when poc characters are onscreen with shallow backstories and have to only say a maximum of two human lines before some mention of their oppression is shoved in. It's old! We get it! The fates of these poc are locked into place and they're always either freed, about to be freed, or forever oppressed. Let poc directors and writers tell their stories, watch their movies, invest in their creations. White people would much prefer to watch a known white creator twist and rework their art to include the non-white experience, instead of actually go out of their way to listen to black people who are actually telling their stories. I'm tired of the virtue signalling and I'm tired of what it's doing to art. Sorry this turned into a rant but I've seen so much of this recently I had to say it at some point, unpopular though it maybe be.
Well said. I think in this case she would be criticized no matter what she chose (and to be honest that’s not a very healthy position for a creator to find themselves in)
Couldn't agree more. Art is not, and should never be, about comfort. Art is what we use to express ourselves, and no one should have to feel like they need to bend the knee and start trying to please everybody because "we don't want anyone's feelings to be hurt". Yeah, screw that. Most art isn't there to make you feel warm and fuzzy and safe within yourself: no. It's there because it's a product of ourselves and how we choose to tell stories. It doesn't care about what its spectators want it to be. Art remains as it is, and should do so, unswayed by sensitivity or demands. If you want movies about POC, then make them, you know what I mean? I feel like trying to make artists feel bad for their creative endeavors and how they choose to express themselves defeats the purpose of freedom of expression through art. Well that was wordy. Anyways, I totally agree with your points.
As my friends always liked the period pieces and Jane Austen etc I've never really been interested in them, not even the films although I love the costumes and scenery. But Coppola's Marie Antoinette is different, I liked it since it came out (I was 16) and have liked it ever since. It's just so different to a lot of other period pieces (that also deals with "feminine" matters) and much more melancholy. I don't know, it's just fascinating to me.
I would be really interested to see a video like this analyzing Lana Del Rey's music. I agree that that statement of hers was ignorant, and a missed opportunity to create a bridge between different female experiences. But in spite of this, I really love LDR as a musician, and I have similar questions in my mind about the perspective that she puts forth. I guess this is the question: At what point does speaking from one's own, potentially narrow, experiences stop being and act of humility, and start being the exact opposite? And when and how is it appropriate to represent experiences that are not your own? I'm perplexed by my own love of her music, because I'm usually not interested in that sort of rich, conventionally pretty, sex/money/fame driven aesthetic in music, or in anything, and she is certainly not singing about my personal experiences. But it still somehow resonates with me. There must be something else under there. Some complexity under the surface. And I think it might be something similar to what Sofia Coppola is doing. Thanks.
Why UA-cam works with an algorithm that needs me to leave a comment to help a channel when I don't have anything meaningful to add is beyond my reason. Great video
This video is talking about Coppola’s directorial body of work. Why are y’all surprised that the comments are talking about her and not white cis het male directors... we already know they’re problematic! This isn’t new information. It’s necessary to analyze and critique her work when her whole career has focused on white womanhood, white femininity, and white women’s purity/fragility. She chose to remake The Beguiled which is situated during the civil war (in the South!!) AND with her specific lens actively warped the context and erased the experiences of Black women. She has used the excuse to not include BIPOC characters in her stories because she doesn’t want to misrepresent them. But a film production can be a collaborative process. You can include different perspectives from creatives that belong to those communities. I think it goes deeper than that. Specifically with The Beguiled, removing the two Black women characters helped keep the perceived narrative of white women’s fragility alive. Because now they no longer treat other human beings as property, now you don’t get to see the twisted and insidious dynamic they have with Black women around them, NOW they’re just women in a big house fending for themselves. When historically white women though oppressed by the patriarchy, have not only been complicit but actively participated in upholding white supremacy. That doesn’t seem to be in alignment with purity, femininity, and fragility. The reality was in conflict with her lens. I don’t know about you, but keeping white feminism alive seems really exhausting.
Free speech even when some of us have unformed sophmore vocals.Growing voice! Others have the masterclass.I prefer some juvey strength culture.I don't want to surrender to maturity and capitalism or socialism.I like moderate independents.
In her version of the beguiled the union soldiers were close it was common for slaves and indentured servants to leave. I’ve even read a diary of a woman describing how only the ladies were left to do all the chores. So it wasn’t historically inaccurate just different from the source material.
The entire idea of being a director is writing what you know, which literally all of them do, not just Sofia Coppola. Why should we expect a depiction of what being a black girl is like from somebody that has only experienced all the different paths of privilege and whatever that was like? I wouldn't be able to understand the depth of what living her life has been like, why blame her for not knowing mine?
Sophia's (and Lana's honestly) feelings are valid. Both are providing artistic nourishment to a specific group of people. And it's ok if it's not everyone! I personally don't gather anything from her films but then again, I'm not in the demographic. But the fact that someone is finding something valuable in it, means that it's meaningful. And I can respect that.
Lana del rey is part of the liberal branch of feminism. A whole damn branch that has existed since the beginning of the movement. If I remember correctly Lana made her statement because people were saying she incites young girls to live like lolitas, which is obviously harmful and dangerous. And they were right, at least in her Paradise-Born to die era when she was younger and more popular. Gladly she has taken a few steps back from that imagery and today's youth doesn't hace the same interest in those albums anymore.
@@sophiegriffin8351 In her early albums, especially Honeymoon and Born to Die. She suggests strong "Americana" themes and nostalgia for "an older time". The Ride monologue comes to mind. I definitely wouldn't call it liberal, but not nessicarily conservative either. It really exists outside that binary.
can i just say that i love how many POC are in this comment section?! the diversity in this audience really says something about this channel, and i love all of the discussions its sparking!
Great video! I would have loved some commentary on 'Lost in Translation' as well; I love a lot of her movies but as a Japanese woman I found this film kind of painful and cringey at times and definitely enjoyed it the least of those I've watched. It weirds me out how many people love it and consider it her best movie - whilst I can see how Western audiences would be taken in by the soundtrack (which I do love!) and gorgeous visuals, my impression of the film kind of tied in to your comments here on 'The Beguiled'. Although she doesn't erase Japanese people from the story visually (which I kinda assume is due to colourism on her part, similar to Tim Burton) I noticed whilst watching how uncomfortable certain aspects of the film made me, with Asian characters feeling like they lacked any real personality, more just reduced to comedy props (mostly relying on very basic and unoriginal stereotypes, like being shorter or mispronouncing words). I do think it's possible to make this type of movie with themes of alienation in an unfamiliar culture and it be good, but I didn't feel she succeeded in that personally - it looks great, but I found myself wondering why she even bothered to set the film in Japan without bothering to give any Japanese characters depth, personality, or even more than 10-20 lines of dialogue. It ended up feeling more like white voyeurism and othering of a culture that means a lot to me, and I was really disappointed because the film is so hyped up that I didn't expect it to be so shallow :/ just another example of her inability to write characters who aren't white.
Sophia Coppola is one of my favorite film makers/artists. I'm a guy and I love all of her films and enjoy seeing the woman's perspective versus the man's. I also enjoy the Twilight films and get crap for that. Catherine Hardwick is also another of my favorite directors.
As a Black woman I dont appreciate warped unrealistic depictions of history, that erase black womens experiences. Notably with regards to the film 'The Beguiled' if Sofia or any other white person didnt want to depict slavery and privileged slave owning white women perhaps it's best not to make films about the American civil war or any of the 400years of American history then. The only reason why depictions of black women as slaves seem so prevalant is because there is a distinct lack of positive nuanced depictions of black women in cinema. Sofia could have collaborated with black director, writers, producers, the real reason why she does not depict black women in her films is because she doesnt want to, she rather perpetuate the blond white ideal of beauty and white femininity over and over again.
Ideally there just needs to be more non-white women directors
Very interesting comment! Thanks so much for sharing!
Why is it that especially women are told what they should do. Her artistic vision is hers alone. She clearly doesn't want or need "help" because she has a certain style even if critics and others don't like it. Cinema needs more women directors in general so every experience can be depicted. And to be TOTALLY honest if she would have had the slave character in the movie that probably would have provoked every sort of comment including those who would have demanded that she should have given the movie to a black woman. Maybe not every movie is for everyone. I often have to remind 50 year old men that they are not the main target audience for Disney movies.
Oh shut up !!!!
Slavery has always existed (it still does) but obviously not every movie is going to approach the topic. Her movie is set in the civil war but it's about the woman left behind at home that her particular story focuses on. It's the same with how not all movies set in the modern day include a slave character, nor do all historical movies set in other eras have a slave in the story. History involved more than just slavery, and until about 200 years ago slavery had never even really been considered as inherently immoral.
@Lwandile M Nice speech but if American white women were gate keepers there would be way more working in important jobs in the industry. And AGAIN an artistic vision is an artistic vision. The "Yes, but..."sentences are as toxic as blatant sexism. And the conversation has just begun. Native American and pagan women will also raise their voices in the future. I would like to see a video essay about the representation of these groups. As a pagan woman myself I'm far more interested in this. But I might watch Coppola's "Beguiled" which I avided in the past because the female characters didn't speak to me. The older movie seems to be extremely sexist which doesn't seem to bother you. Interesting because this is a No Go for me.
It makes me uncomfortable how overly feminine films are criticized for having no masculine elements yet overly masculine films are often overrated and *never* criticized for having no feminine elements.
No they get criticized for having toxic masculinity. I feel people will unfairly criticise anything that is different to them (be it their gender, race or class).
i totally agree
so true!!! when i hear critiques of Coppola's films for being overly concerned with the aesthetic, I think of some of the most celebrated male filmmakers of all time who unashamedly lean into the aesthetic, often at the expense of a coherent story, like Tarantino and Kubrick. interesting how they are lauded as incomprehensible geniuses, while women who lean into a distinctly feminine aesthetic are demeaned as just girls playing with a camera.
@@Mariathinking maybe but not by the people who are criticizing the femininity of these types of films, and that’s the point-the sexist double standards. why do those people criticize overly feminine films and seem to find no value in portraying femininity but have none of those same qualms when it comes to overly masculine films?
@@Mariathinking do you have a film in mind? I have personally never seen this but am open to new info.
The scene from The Virgin Suicides that truly resonated with me was when Lux woke up in the football field to find she had been abandoned by the guy who had won her heart only to toss it away as soon as he got what he truly wanted: her body. She finally gets home only to be slapped across the face by her mother. For me, this defined girlhood.
Yes.A truest comment.Un my regard.
It was heartbreaking : (
This made me cry again lol
Her mother was probably trying to tell her something
@@zapkvr Gone are the days when the vast majority of people believed the lie that women are supposed to suppress their sexual desires and are bad for having them ;)
so no one's gonna talk about how wes anderson is literally praised as a genius and a visionary for his art style but coppola is bashed for the same "pretty" aesthetic???
They are both great directors but other than having similar taste in music I see virtually nothing in common in their films. Sofía Coppola is certainly thought of as a modern day auteur. Before this UA-cam upload I have never heard any real criticism of her as a director. Even the best directors have a dud or two in their career or in the case of her father 15 or so. As an actress she has gotten some criticism but as a director she is highly respected and deservedly so.
@Rational Media Im just sharing my opinion, if you have a problem w it, you can ignore it
@@ramshafarooq here's a hot take - people can share their opinions about the opinions that you also decided to share, even if they don't agree with you. pretty wild, right? otherwise i should just tell you the same thing - the people who praise wes anderson while dunking on sofia's work are just sharing an opinion. if you have a problem with it, you can ignore it. :')
@@anishinaabae i actually respect how you replied w a good argument instead of calling me a bitch and leaving it at that. kinda cool tbh
wes anderson movies have faster pace and a comedic tone that makes their quirks less artsy fartsy
"What do the Beguiled, Marie Antoinette and The Virgin Suicides have in common?" I don't know, Kirsten Dunst?
Perhaps Sofia is fascinated with her
Maybe she sees her as a blonde version of herself? I think they look really similar
She is her muse
Every director has a muse
@@toomuchsci-fi ..they look nothing alike. Like...look at a picture of their faces sometimes seriously. Dunst just her muse.
Film critics often praise the gesture of 'show don't tell'. Like you mentioned there are many shots in Coppola's films that clearly show you how the characters are feeling. It's just hypocritical to just label it as a lack of substance when the portrayal is done with soft pastel colours and young women as characters.
Yet Wes Anderson is praised for doing the same thing...
@GiRayne If you’re not a writer already, please become one
I believe this critique is because Sofia's depiction of negative emotions women experience like sadness, hurt, anger are still portrayed through that "pretty" feminine lens that oversaturates it, while negativity portrayed in male films is shown through chaos and destruction which is more realistic, or at least not so aesthetically pleasing. It's not simply Sofia's gravitation towards aesthetic over substance, it's the style that makes ugly emotions "pretty" or more "beautiful" in a white, blond feminine way that drains the realness/substance.
Men just don't know how to read feminin gestures
@@bunnywavyxx9524 That's not completely right tho; for starting there's no such thing as a "negative emotion", each and every single one of them is useful to our psyche in a situation. It's not the same that a visual like 13 Reasons Why romantizises mental illness, than another visual like Melancholia or Virgin S**cides using a unique aesthetic to portray an emotion. I can relate more to a scene with a melancholic tone used to portray sadness than mess and chaos representing that same emotion.
"Only for girls and gays" Okay, and? Is it illegal to have a demographic?
that really irritated me; it is insane how many films are made simply for men, and that is not questioned
@@molly3713 to most Cis white men, they are 'the default setting' so anything that isn't specifically for them is obviously special or 'not marketable'
@@Eisofice bruh they actually like the world revolves around them 😭
also there are a lot more girls and gays that there are cishet man, so she's actually going for a quite large demographic
@@Eisofice 'For these types there is no real reason to be diverse
There is only white or "political"
Thin or "political"
Male or "political"'
Straight or "political"
literally anything that doesn't pander to them is political pandering!
but the kind that is not okay...mmkay?
I have to disagree with the thoughts on her Marie Antoinette film. It's one of my favorite movies because one of my favorite books is Secrets of Marie Antoinette: A Collection of Letters, which I am guessing Sofia must have read before making her film. In those letters, that Marie wrote herself, mostly to her mother, it was apparent that she really was just a clueless young woman not capable of being a strong leader. She amazingly would often complain of her or her husband having stomach aches from eating too many pastries and drinking hot chocolate. She always wrote off any stresses of her political responsibilities, probably so her mother wouldn't worry. I am almost certain Sofia read this book because of the mother's narration in the film through letters. We often see historical figures as these glorious beings, so far from being human because they have gone down in history, but these letters showed that Marie was human. Years after I read that book, Sofia's Marie Antoniette came out and I loved it. In my experience, it seems strongly based on that book which was in fact historical representation written in Marie's own words about her personal thoughts on life during her private moments. I think people were expecting some type of political war drama, but it was focusing on Marie's secluded emotions. Maybe Sofia's niche is the lonely confused girl, but Marie Antoinette was actually a lonely and confused girl so it was a perfect film for her to direct, and she that seamlessly.
The film is actually based on Antonia Frazer's biography of her. Frazer is credited and was paid as a historical consultant.
Clare Testoni really? can u tell me Where I can purchase the book online?
@@realbharbiexoxo if you haven't found it already it's just 'Marie Antionette' (or 'Marie Antionette: The Journey' in the US) by Antonia Fraser. It's available on amazon.
The only thing I could think when I saw the Marie Antoinette film was, she was still a terrible ruler and doesn't deserve sympathy from me.
@@summerrose8110 Didn't you read the original comment? Marie Antoinette purposely downplayed her political struggles in her letters to her mother, meaning no historian can truly tell how she felt about it as she never wrote it down.
There is evidence to show Marie Antoinette was loathed by the French for being "a foreign invader" and hated by her nation of origin (Austria) for being "a traitor" for marrying a French King. Lord knows even the most level-headed of leaders would be torn up inside when so universally disliked.
In my opinion, Marie Antoinette probably overindulged to drown her sorrows and wallow in depression. I don't think "it's wrong to be depressed", but her coping methods only made her even more deeply despised. Both she and her people were at fault for their behaviour. A misunderstanding, as most things are.
You're entitled to have your own opinion, but I'm entitled to say I think going to extremes in either direction (thinking she was either terrible or the best thing ever) is silly and irrational. Sometimes it's best to be a fence-sitter.
"But as the queen, she's expected to shine--be better, prettier, more stylish, more vivacious, until she's vilifed for it." It could be said for all of us women...damned if you do, damned if you don't. Damned for not meeting impossible expectations, and damned for meeting/exceeding them.
That line really struck a chord in me as well.
this can also be an intra community issue for women as well. internal misogyny and racism among women is a topic that doesn't get talked about in spaces the rare times women of all walks get brought together to speak about issues that effect us universally even though they are big things that women can fix themselves but tear us apart the often times. whether you rebel against or subvert expectations by being a tomboy, you get vilified for it by "girly girls" becauee you refuse to perform feminity to getting vilified because you're black and you perform feminity better than white and nonblack counterparts.
It's because nobody really cares if women actually meet the standards, more that they try to meet them. In other words, it's about control. They want to know that if they tell a woman to jump, she will obey. Then they can criticise her jumping technique just to reinforce their dominance.
Yep.
@@bananamanchester4156 oof, why have I never considered that, that’s a really insightful comment
Since watching Marie Antoinette, I always felt like Sofia Coppola should make a movie about the 4 Romanov girls ; Olga, Tatiana, Maria and Anastasia. I feel like she’s the only one who could truly capture their spirit, and their experience in girlhood
omg so true!!!
Excellent suggestion.
This is really good idea! I'd watch it!
Excellent idea :D She really should do it
Why should she? As people say here, she cannot understand girls next door who are of colour, how would she understand someone from the opposite side of the world? The movie would be as fake as Maria Antoinette: Coppola's ideas, but almost no historicity. It seemingly doesn't matter which framework she'd choose, it could be Arthurian Guinevere or Henry VIII wives, but the narrative would miss everything actually relevant to the historical truth of these people.
I don't really know who should depict the last Romanov princesses. I've been to Russian Mosfilm studio (my boss is friends with their librarian, I'm a librarian too), I've listened to people who work with Russian producers. I'm at least acquainted with contemporary Russian culture, me being Russian. A Romanov princesses picture would require wealth, which I can't expect of independent producers. Who, what type of team, would understand the culture, the times, while also being unbiased enough, not swayed by propaganda requirements pressure of the state?
Men can be too quick to assume what they do not understand must not exist.
Preach
Ja wolh!ok,I'll get out of here.I still have a mental foot in the French-American ladies Purple Palace video.I can't get over it.
@@michaelspooner9160 what video?
Yeah, unfortunately true; I've seen this far too often.
We all can . When we don’t understand something we tend to get upset it’s not just men but all of us . Men who are more dominant can be put out as toxic women who are to strong can be put as annoying or to harsh ( mostly women of color are said to be this when it’s not true ) but still when we don’t understand something we tend to get angry and afraid
This is why I often say Issa Rae is so important because she was the first time I truly saw myself on the screen
Not a slave. Not a superhero. Just a girl struggling with finding her purpose in her 20s. I love this analysis y'all! That part about the pressure of speaking for everyone because she's usually is the only woman in the room made me feel for her.
I don’t know, she has enough clout and ressources to prop up female directors like Lulu Wang, yet decides not. It makes me wonder if she genuinely cares about making sure the door stays open for those after her
and all these tv executives will say no one will be interested in watching a show about a black woman in her 20s. by no one, they mean white people, because they themselves are uninterested. my sister recommended the show to me, and it's one of my favorites now.
Have you seen The Photograph? With her and Lakeith Stanfield ? A gorgeous romance with Issa as the lead.
wolf town it sucks that white people have to see themselves in movie/tv show to care. Everything has always been about them and they can exist in all aspects of life
@@selty Ih oh princess please excuse me.After the master class I find myself in these embarrassing situations.Mon adore.
I think Marie Antoinette is a masterpiece. The choice to show none of the suffering and anger of the French people is deliberate and essential to its theme. We, the audience, know what is going on outside the privileged lives of the royal court but she is blissfully ignorant.
I always read it very much as a reflection of growing up as part of Hollywood royalty.
totally agree
agreed, easily one of best movies of the century
@@lucasvalenzuela7319 lmao century is an absolute reach.
@@nahhhbruhhh its a masterpiece
Men are not slammed for writing about themselves. Why is Sofia?
Her perspective is under-represented. She is a woman and that ultra-feminine perspective in media is not really present. They judge her because they don't understand, and or they want to understand as well. Let's be honest, men are sort of repelled by femininity. Not because they dont like us. They are scared to understand a feminine woman's perspective.
You know why
Yes!!
That is a question I had also, Sofia is slammed for her under representation but for the most part I don't ever hear of male directors being put down for this same problem?
Many,many,many more male stories for men to see themselves in (that we will happily watch--while they say "Eww, girly films" then announce they don't understand women) - while there are so few female stories that we all demand to see ourselves in them, which is utterly unfair pressure on a female filmmaker/artist who is simply expressing their own vision.
Solution is far more films by women, so we all see ourselves and feel seen.
Speaking as a Black woman, I'm actually relieved that she dropped the two Black female characters in The Beguiled. Black women in movies /TV set in the Antebellum South are usually portrayed as de-sexed mammy types meant to prop up the graceful feminity of White female protagonists. I don't have enough faith that it would be different in her adaptation - especially as her 1st time working with a POC female character. I've seen enough movies about slavery and struggle - I think its time that onscreen portrayals of Black people explore something else.
That's a super good point! Do you think perhaps it would be best to not make a movie about the confederate south at all if you as a director know you won't be able to write characters without falling into those tired narratives - and since there's the added risk of either completely erasing or even glorifying (With movies like The Patriot)? I wonder if The Beguiled could have been re-set in a completely different era so that BIPOC erasure/stereotyping wouldn't have to happen at all and we'd still get the same story...
I would’ve like to see the female slave character, and Sofia has changed history before....she could’ve given that character more agency.
Ok but is there is a reason there isn’t one black character in the virgin Suicides or Lost in Translation? Or why stop there? Not a single minority. Not a single brunette or overweight person. This is a sick lady.
Nia Johnson I agree. If someone doesn’t have the range to depict historical women of color than they really shouldn’t do it, and she herself claimed in an interview that she more or less didn’t have the range to adequately depict them. I’m okay with that as I’m pretty sure I simply would have been insulted by it. As it is I actually like her movies, and I’m one of the few people who lied her role in Godfather.
Good point, I don’t think she was ready to tackle any of that
I remember being 15 years old at the doctor's while feeling heavily depressed and this 40 yo man told me " you have such a depressed sad beauty that boys love". Now im 25 and only now understand it.
I am quite curious...was this a doctor in the U.S.?
EWWWWW
what a medical miracle you didnt vomit all over him
That’s such a gross and unprofessional thing to say??!
Depression and mental illness shouldn’t be “attractive traits” 😓
What the hell?? Why would a DOCTOR say that
Kinda weird how Marie Antoinette was apparently criticised for bending history to benefit emotional and thematic resonance... when 2018's "The Favourite" was applauded for the exact same thing.
Not implying that The Favourite is a bad film or deserves such criticism! (I love both movies.) Just pointing out the difference in critical reception. I hope this is just 'cause tastes have changed between 2006 vs 2018.
Not so much that critics' tastes have changed, since they are not a monolith and rarely agree on anything actually, at least in the specifics. But rather this is a reflection in the new generation of critics that have come into the forefront in the twelve years between the two films. Those critics grew up liking films like Marie Antoinette.
Even the show 'The Great' on Hulu
This comparison is inaccurate. These two films have nothing in common.
@@benisturning30 On the contrary they have a lot in common.
Marie Antoinette walked so The Favourite could run!😉 but I totally remember being SOOPER underwhelmed by MA when I saw it in theatres. And now it is my official favorite movie of all time so...again, I'd bet I'm not the only one!
As an avid fan and defender of Sofia Coppola, I find it insane how people seem to put her down just to elevate her father and his status. Sofia does have a problem with POC representation, but so does the majority of iconic directors in this industry, those being mostly white, cis, straight men.
As a POC myself, I’m really confident that Sofia will grow from that criticism, specially considering how sensitive and subtle she can handle difficult topics. But again, pointing your fingers to the one woman in the room and claiming that she’s the only racist in there just shows that prejudice has more than one single form.
Tvkc 2qd3d45d You’re absolutely right. There have been several white male directors who made it clear they had no intention of putting PoC in any of their movies “unless it was necessary “. She came right out and said she didn’t have the range to do so, and decided to stay in her lane. She said she lacked the confidence for it, and sticks with what she’s familiar, but you’re right, one day she will have the range, and I’m looking forward to what we’re going to see , and she will say when she adds woc to her movies, even if it pisses me off.
@@lkeke35 Yes and no one batted an eyelid when tim burton said he didn't feel POC needed representation.
Well said
yesssss, there a lot of director than never put a women or a non-white as a protagonist and nobody talks nothing to they, this makes me very upset
Nailed it
"the kind of women who say no but men hear yes"--LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE WOMAN
underrated comment
except like ugly ones i guess
@@25-keys44well no! But I can imagine why you would think that
Literally like huh? She thought she ate lmao
@@25-keys44even ugly girls lmaoo
i remember when I first watched The Virgin Suicides, I was around 13 years old and what made me the saddest while having had watched this film, is knowing that everyone in town saw these young women as nothing more than just frivolous teens until they passed
and i felt even after their passing, they still didn’t understand the kaleidoscopic emotions and feelings to being a young woman
i’m latina and grew up in a predominately black community, so it was almost comforting to know that these young white ‘privileged’ girls, what society has showed as most redeeming, still felt obscured and tossed aside
but it was the worst type of comfort because although you’re glad you’re not alone, you would never wish other young girls to feel just as exploited, criticized, and driven to their own deaths
and this movie and the way it was shot, which i felt was so natural and authentic, made me come to terms with what i already knew but didn’t want confirmed at such a young age
that women will never be enough on society’s term, just a constant fight between of not being enough or being too much
Very beautifully said!❤️💕💖
@@laurenj432 thank you 🌸🌸
Well said! I really relate to that last line: "women will never be enough on society's terms, just a constant fight between not being enough or being too much."
Excellent response, especially that last line! 👍
This is exactly how I feel all of the time, thank you for writing it down.
Is this where all the intelligent women meet on youtube? I feel like my mind has grown from reading some of these comments 🤯
The female collective sent me here.I don't know what gender I am currently.AI scanned my brain and downloaded me into some chip or other mums the word.
The comments made me fix my posture
sameee
Same! I wish we had a club!
for real i want to screenshot half of these lol
"But as the queen, she's expected to shine -- be better, prettier, more stylish, more vivacious -- until she's vilified for it."
I feel like this is why a woman has a hard time finding a balance for herself between her personal appearance and her profession/career. If she dedicates too much time to her appearance, the mostly patriarchal professions will not notice her for her talent. If she looks like she doesn't dedicate enough time on her appearance, she will be labelled as "Plain Jane". Every woman wants to be taken serious for her talent, and not for her appearance. But she also runs the risk of being criticised by those who might think she only got to where she is in her career because of her appearance, and not because of her talent.
Why should a woman have to give up one or the other? Why should she have to choose between the two?
👏👏👏
As a Black woman, Sofia is the last person on earth that should be writing about things she doesn’t know, like, Black people. Additionally, I am tired of the ‘strong’ Black woman trope so that softness would not have shown through in the Beguiled for a Black character.
I have a question regarding writing black characters portrayed with fragile femininity. Can writers like Sofia write in similarly like one of her usual soft white women but just make her black? Is there a prime distinction between “fragile feminine” women of different races? I ask because I feel like a lot of these white writers skip out on writing in black characters because they think it’s hard and only how different they are to black people come to mind and that they are always struggling and have to be social justice warriors or if it’s a movie set more in the pasts as slaves. They never seem to realize that there are black people who didn’t grow up in poverty and overly racist environments but grew up just like them in a middle class suburb and were just soft feminine women.
I honestly feel embarrassed that I've never realized that I really only see black women portrayed as strong, sometimes sexless, characters. Rarely are there soft, gentle black women characters
Amanda Thompson Zendaya in Euphoria does an amazing job bringing to life a complex, vulnerable young black woman. One of my favourite series
LOUD ! Just wanted to chime in and say you made a really good point. I’m curious to see if anyone else has anything to say about it.
@@wizard185081 I believe that even if you grew up in hard times you can still be soft. She doesn't have to ignore harsh realities to make a character soft and when it comes to Black characters you shouldn't ignore their pain to make them gentle. Take Kerry Washington in Django or Kiki Layne in If Beale Street Could Talk, both fragile female characters. Even all of Sophia's characters experience pain but are still seen as feminine. There are nuances that she as a white writer might miss if she doesn't consult experts or do extensive history but as a director/writer she should be expected to do that.
This has the be the comment section with the most intelligent and thoughtful responses I've ever found, I love it here
Seriously
I'm gonna follow just for this.
@Gabe. thats right
Echo chamber. Comfort food.
Truly sad how rare this is
Are there any movies directed by POC with the “pretty aesthetic?” We can hope that Coppola does better with poc in the future but we can’t rely on her, she’s a rich, white woman who grew up extremely privileged. What is she going to know about poc experiences?
Let’s instead support POC directors and encourage their visions.
This is old sorry but Ana Lily Amirpour, Boots Riley, Barry Jenkins, and Zhang Yimou are some of my favorite directors with a “pretty” aesthetic!
i would love to see it
I am a huge fan of Sofia Coppola. However, she can't win either way it would seem. If she tried to tell stories about more people of color then she would receive backlash. If she included the only black character as a slave she would also receive backlash. So, it makes sense why she only tells stories about what she knows, and decided to remove the slave character. People are always complaining that people of color are cast as slaves in films and they also complain when "non-people of color" tells the stories of people of color. So, in short, it seems that no matter what she does she can't win. People say not having a black slave in this film during this time period is "unrealistic", however, those same people tend to praise fictional shows like Bridgerton, which is filled with people of color. I think we should be sure that we are examining art in an unbiased way.
Anna Biller makes visually GORGEOUS movies!
@@tdr.220 "unbiased" you say, as you bend over backwards to defend a white lady who makes more in a year than you probably could in a lifetime
This was a great multi-facetted look at a director which didn't ignore her problematic aspects like racism and nepotism. I do want to suggest that the reason so many women in positions of power got there due to nepotism is because other avenues to success, already narrow for anyone, are all but closed to women. Becoming a producer and director requires buy ins from big rich guy run studios, who have to see you as a sort of genius leader, qualifications women aren't usually seen as possessing. I mean that doesn't really bear on Coppola's competence at all, just a side thought: there's gatekeeping at work.
It also occured to me watching this how art produced by women is almost always interpreted through the lens of looking at the woman's individual life, while work produced by men (or, well, white men) is usually dis-associated from the individual and looked at as being a part of society, etc, maybe because the experience of white men is so normalized that it becomes invisible in the work. This is a phenomenon that's been written about before as it pertains to other female artists.
very good points
I'd actually rather not be a slave again (not me specifically but I'm sure you get it) I can't feel empowered by the same thing every single time, I'm tired of being seen as "the strong black woman" all the time, I wanna be delicate because I am delicate. It's not that I'm weak and don't want to be strong, it's just that I can't be strong all the time y'know?
Exactly, I don't understand why it's so hard for white people to understand that black women are not just people who take little and make the best out of it. We are human, we have many more sides, we are feminine not only sexy or the mammy type. I'm just really tired of writers giving only the strong black woman who's barely ever happy.
@@danad3838 Very few people believe those things. It's usually the loud media that screams this message from the top of their lungs.
Exactly
There is strength in vulnerability, in being heartfelt, sensitive, empathetic, emotional and delicate. You are a strong woman, who lives, and feels.
Our definition of "strong" is wrong. It is defined by patriarchy, because that is how they define themselves!
i like this comment. it’s not that she seized to cast a black woman in the beguiled out of spite, but she simple shouldn’t be asked to delegate the weight of something on a topic she doesn’t have the knowledge on. the media needs more poc representation as a whole, strong women, delicate women, every type of damn women there is. the lack of female directors in the film industry really begins to show with sofia’s backfire on her own films.
Writing 'feminine' stories and emotions is actually harder. It is much easier to write a thriller or even a critical piece. The women who can invoke the delicate emotions, of love, of betrayal or helplessness and hopelessness through sheer imagery - the delicate balance of agency and restraint in the protagonist are truly masterful.
everyone who disparages sofia coppola but loves other aesthetic-focused male directors like her ex Spike Jonze or Wes Anderson should really wonder why they have it so hard to relate to girls in the same social/economic landing as their male counterparts.
i have never watched a sofia coppola film whole. recently i saw the three godfather movies and indeed, her acting was really bad and im sure (comparing it to winona ryder's acting in dracula) the originally cast actress couldnt have done much better anyway. it was a badly written role from the start, one with potential but with no actual personality beyond "martyr".
i have seen ten minutes of lost in translation, an hour and a half of marie antoinette and an hour of the virgin suicides. the latest one actually hooked me in; it gave me this feeling of unease and unpredictability ive grown to expect from people like lynch. theres a strong alienation indeed, one that ive seen in other movies like fight club, yet more aesthetized as in american beauty and american psycho (both relating to apparently a very "american" feeling) but while those two movies are deeply entrenched on masculine social mores (and id go even further and say that american beauty does little to actually reach any conclusion regarding it, while american psycho, directed by a woman, is much more able to see masculinity through a different lens), sofia coppolas movies do touch on experiences that i seldom see in movies; limited to disney princess musicals, short music videos, a couple forgotten teen movies. mind you, my teenage experience was very, very unlike the characters of sofia coppola's (im not from the US, im not pretty and blonde, i am not likable or thin and being a teen in the 2000s meant awful fashion choices) but the ennui, the one which i could only find in male characters at the movies, was there.
i honestly dont know why sofia coppola remade the beguiled when the most obvious choice for her was to remake picnic at hanging rock (another rookie mag teenage fantasy beloved). i think she must be the only director in hollywood who gets what not even its own horny director could understand about it: behind the mystery and the beauty theres the desire to escape. thats why people watch her, their movies in the first place.
I really love your point about the loving fixation many film fans have for male directors with a similar visual language. I have been frustrated by the criticism leveled at her films that only amounts to "it's too visually/aesthetically driven :///" like bruh.....it's a film. You can really tell that Coppola found her artistic footing as a photographer before transitioning into film
You get my like Cuz long comment :)
I think Virgin Suicides was able to hold my attention because (much like Fight Club/American Psycho) it had a incredible book to rest on. The great story was already there, and she illustrated it beautifully. I have such a hard holding interest with her other films. Much like Wes Anderson the characters seem more like paper dolls than humans. Now, Portrait of a Woman on Fire’s depiction of a female admiration of women was so fierce it actually shifted my appreciation of my own femininity and the women around me.
“rookie mag teenage fantasy beloved” such a perfect turn of phrase, ive always struggled w how to describe this particular category of movies
Watch The Life Aquatic and Her. And watch Lost in Translation.
I think we should not delegate representation of young black women to Sofia Coppola, who is extremely good in her representation of what is her experience and what she knows, but can't objectively depict the stuggles of young p.o.c women because she doesn't know them, being a white, privileged woman.
There should be more space for more female directors, and especially for the plenty of talented women of colour ready to tell their stories and depict them truthfully. One woman should not have the burden to represent anyone simply because the industry is too sexist to even think about let more than one woman be famous and recognized on a worldwide level.
I feel this way too. Open the space for more creators instead of putting pressure on one woman to satisfy everyone’s desire
Couldn't agree more. There should be an artistic freedom and let the equal opportunity to correct the misrepresentation of groups. This is a better way than the current forced representation, which probably does more harm than good.
Jane Doe You took the words out of my mouth. Bravo
Thankfully Netflix is evening the score. Many of the movies and shows on Netflix offer very diverse accounts of life. There's Dear White People, Pose, the 3%, Chambers and many other offerings that center around POC. If you haven't checked out their menu, you should probably give it a try.
Renegade Queen thank you for putting that into words. You said it perfectly
I watched virgin suicides 3 weeks ago and I think about it every night before I go to bed. Something about it haunts me, and it’s because of how much I resonate with the film. It’s almost as if I am horrified that I could relate to such depressing material - how could I, a supported young woman feel as hopeless as these trapped girls? I suppose I am shocked that there is such a film that encapsulates the suffering of being a young girl so accurately. The Lisbon sisters were always supported. But it was through this support they were trapped. Trapped by the men that chased them, trapped by their parents for wanting to protect their innocence. I feel with the Lisbon sisters as I am trapped by the need I am told I must have for male validation. That I must be beautiful to look at but still intelligent and self resilient. I cannot be to loud, to confident, but if I am not individualistic then I am boring and undesirable. I am trapped by people telling me what to do and trying to protect me just as the Lisbon sisters were. I am trapped by the support I am supposed to be grateful for but that ultimately suffocates me. Sofia speaks to girls like me. Her work will live on me forever. They make me feel less alone, more understood, and are beautiful universal visualizations of the truly confusing existence of being a girl.
I find what you so vulnerable shared here quite resonant, relatable, and rather haunting as well. Thank you for writing this. 🥀
Marie Antoinette is still one of the most beautiful films I’ve ever seen. Every scene is marvelous. Eye candy with a mix of sadness. Oh, and the soundtrack is badass.
Coppola, when she restricts her storytelling to what she knows, is showing respect to the minorities with which she is unfamiliar. She prefers not to misrepresent people's narratives and I appreciate that. It shows how sensitive she is to their walks of life and the fact that outsiders can never truly understand what they go through, much less tell their stories. As a man, it took me a while to learn this. But I am not the person to say which is best between misrepresentation and erasure for this exact reason. Great video!
On the contrary, she has the power to platform other creatives of colour and give them the opportunity to showcase and share their experiences. Films can be collaborative, and they do not have to be driven by a single voice or point of view. Thus, her justification for not wanting to misrepresent the experiences of WoC or PoC feels like complacency and laziness, rather than actual respect and sensitivity.
@@mihir9632 I see your point. However authorship is the foundation, mostly, of the artistic expression. Although there are some high quality collective creations, an artist that chooses to maintain their vision on their craft is not without reason to do so. This is precisely why, in my opinion, we can only have a diverse cultural "zeitgeist" when we have authors, directors, actors etc. from diverse backgrounds. Asking a rich, white woman born into the most influential family in cinema to accurately tell the truth of a minority of which she's not a part is both unfair to her and quite possibly problematic to this very minority. But I agree when you say that she should use her platform to empower those who don't have one. If I'm not mistaken, Tarantino produced a film - don't remember which - from some people he tutored and it got some attention for this very reason. She could do this for PoC, women specially.
Her last two films The Beguiled AND The Bling Ring were white washed. It's a conscious choice she makes to erase these people of color. Historical accuracy doesn't matter to me unless it's actively erasing marginalized people to instead spotlight white disposition.
Sony XA1 I agree. As a Black Woman, I’m sort of glad she didn’t try and also admitted she didn’t know enough to do it. She’s aware of her shortcomings as a director and stays in her lane, which is fine. Id have been more insulted if she’d done it and got it horribly wrong.
lakitha tolbert
Damned if you do, damned if you don’t, it seems.
as a girl with insanely strict parents yet grew up in a comfortable family, there's something about the virgin suicides that resonates with me
Coppola follows one of the most basic rules when writing. Write about what you know. And that's a smart thing. She knows her talents and limitations and that I something important. She has the ability to situate a story in aesthetic environments while narrating situations and characters full of deep emotions that find themselves in moments of transition and self awareness. Ultimately, what she tells us is that "pretty things can be full of sadness or melancholia". Which is something that she's incredibly aware of. Sadness and unfulfillment in plain sight when you have a beautiful atmosphere are difficult to identify. And that, in my opinion, is what she's trying to convey.
Yes I agree 100% Just this summer a writer got torn apart and her book panned because she tried to write a character of a different race than her. Her career is basically over. Cindy reads, an Asian girl booktuber, did a great video on it. It can't be both ways. You (not you specifically a general you) can't vilify white people for writing minority characters and then vilify them for not writing minority characters. Especially when they are far more likely to have their careers ruined by trying to write a minority character because then everyone says they don't get to speak for minorities. So which is it? Do you want white people to try to create minority characters or do you want white people to stay in their lane? Whatever it is that's fine but it can't be both.
@@WhitneyDahlin oh my God. People want minority characters that are actually human nor stereotypes. And PoC are much more than struggles. The mere fact you are trying to frame the inclusion of minorities as a challenge is mind boggling. A character can simply be x,y,z while asian,latino, or black.. if an author doesn't understand all the intricacies that racism may have on a character it is in their best interest to not speak on and focus on other shit, because once again, in clearer language PoC ARE NOT JUST THE STRUGGLES WE FACE DUE TONOUR RACE. Yes, it plays a role, but I also spend my time worrying about everyday humdrum shit too.
One of the girly shows that is set in historic turmoil that I love the most is Derry Girls. It's set in northern Ireland in the 80s and it's mail characters are girly girls in a religious all girls school. It's really good and I recommend it to everyone.
I remember seeing Marie Antoinette when I was 17 years old or so. I didn't particularly liked it (nor my girlfriend at the time did), and I found it to be specially slow and boring. Now, almost 15 years later, I can still recall ir vividly; even though I haven't watched it again since. And on those almost 15 years, thinking about that movie (randomly and sparingly), I believe I reached on my own the same conclusions as you did. It now has a special place in my heart, and I love the way that you covered it.
Humberto Peña Yes, this is one of my favorite films by her. I loved it right away though. I liked the frivolity and silliness.
Visually it’s a masterpiece. The performances are nicely done. I think the end lacked ... something.
I love watching clips of it on UA-cam but I haven’t rewatched it completely.
I find it surprising that the word "melancholy" wasn't used to describe her films until the very end of the video. I think that is very important.
when i heard “sophia coppola should have included a slave character in her movie so black women could see themselves depicted in a soft feminine way” i had to pause and exit the video. like that’s genuinely one of the worst justifications for representation i’ve ever heard. like not to hate on you or your content but please just think that sentence through for a moment
i agree, what the hell, why are poc only portrayed suffering and that is then considered positive representation why? i dont think sofia could have won in this situation
That was the worst sentence I’ve heard in a video essay, ever
Wow I didn’t get to that part of the video yet that’s disgusting
@@PositiveHalfling you're just another sexist the moment you started with the "melodramatic females"
i found these two women to be very difficult to listen to, but i watched the video anyway & got something out of it, not being very familiar with Coppola's films.
Sofia Coppola and Wes Anderson:
We're not twins, we're not even sisters, we're just gender-swapped versions of each other
Nah. Their work is completely different. Coppola’s films are meditative and atmospheric. Anderson’s are, I dunno, not that at any rate. The only thing they have in common really is their lack of POC.
well, no. although wes and coppola both are very focused on the aesthetic side of their films, wes uses it for comedic purposes while coppola is more introspective.
but wes is praised for it and coppola bashed :(
i honestly think the only thing they have in common is being quirky aesthetes. their visuals aren't even that similar (the structural compositions of their shots are basically opposite imo), and they def use their unique visuals to very different purposes - wes is way more focused on comedy, sofia more quietly meditative. maybe i'm missing something though?
Don’t do Sofia like that
Sofia Coppola and Wes Anderson knew each other in the '90s, which is how Jason Schwartzman was cast in Wes Anderson's "Rushmore". Jason Schwartzman is Sofia Coppola's cousin.
here's the weird thing: I never saw her work as "girly"... just quiet, moody, and evokes that weird sort of dread that an adult would feel when looking at a kid about to screw up like he/she did when he/she was at that age
oh, and she's a master at putting the perfect soundtrack for scenes
Wait you put it perfectly into words
As a black woman im actually relieved she didn’t put black slaves in. Media is powerful and seeing black people in slavery is played out and affects us in ways some of my fellow black girls don’t understand. The “strong black woman” trope is tiring and dangerous. Good on her for seeing her limitations and not pushing it.
Thanks for sharing!! 💜
as a black woman, I was also relieved about that
10:30 black woman seeing themselves in a coppola movie and as soft & feminine would be wonderful. I miss this kind of media representation. I just found out that she scraped a black & biracial women and i am disappointed.
What I wouldn't give to see a movie about black girlhood given softness and dreamy colors.
(And I can almost feel Hollywood recoil and flail in confusion at how to? show black woman?? not downtrodden????????)
@@vikthya1711 watch Daughters of the Dust! Also Zoe Kravitz or Troian Belissario would've ate up these roles as the biracial character.
Kai Medders Agreed!😂😂😂
I would recommend going up and reading Nia Johnson's comment about how the choice of taking out the POC women was better than having them included, mainly because people are tired of the usual Black Woman stereotypes of the Antebellum South already. I think it really highlights how self-aware and self-conscious Coppola is that she would stick to her strengths and not try to write POC characters that she wasn't confident enough to do full justice.
@@LaraUAE both her Grandparents on her Mom's side are Black American/Creole.
I guess there is nothing wrong to show women vulnerabilities in the essence of "soft pink" aesthetic picturesque. There is strength in that despite her incapability to show adequate number of people of color. There is depth in every surface, and Sofia Coppola managed that through the uncertainty of being a teenage girl.
I'd actually say though that it's that standardizing of 'being teenage girl' and 'women vulnerabilities' being associated with being a white woman that's questionable. Because it confronts the bigger question of how gender is racialized. Her work is great, but her work is not to show women vulnerabilities, but white women vulnerabilities and that's distinctly different. To conflate the two, is to omit girls of color from the human experience of being a 'teenage girl', by participating in their erasure in the gender binary.
Amira Olingou Well she’s white. That’s the experience she knows best.
NightSky thank you for letting me know, I had no idea. Lol what I’m saying is when we use descriptors like “feminine” and “soft” to describe her movies we are really talking about whiteness, affluence, thinness etc. And the way I see her being propped up as the filmmaker for female sensibility should be questioned
Amira Olingou I think you’re overreacting, with all respect. She does represent vulnerableness and softness and using white women because that is her world and that’s how she expresses herself. Her movies are very personal. But she’s not the only director in the world and her movies are not the sole representation of femininity. White people are a minority, there are movies made all over the world and Hollywood where women of colour are soft and feminine ( or not, with every right ). I don’t know who thinks only white women are this way 😳
@@LovelyDay11 I'm not talking about her nor her intent. I'm talking about the discourse surrounding femininity in films representing the western canon and the material consequences of this discourse.
I understand the concept of only "writing what you know" and Sofia seems honest as to why she excluded the slave character, but something rubs me the wrong way when everyone in the comments is defending "only writing what you know" when historical period films rely on the director delving into something that they most definitely don't know about first hand, yet they still take on the challenge. Why don't more directors take on that challenge with POC characters?
Somebody else made the comment that the people who criticize Sofia Coppola for cutting out the black female slave character in "The Beguiled" because of the historical inaccuracy are the same people who praise a show like "Bridgerton".
@@AmandaFromWisconsin Well Sofia did choose/go for historical accuracy, if you watch the film it's extremely dark because she only wanted to film with the natural lighting they had at the time, and they do address the slaves; they ran away. Whereas Bridgerton (which has its own problems) chooses an imaginary world where POC and white nobility mix. But I'm not really harping on ✨historical accuracy✨, it's that there was a black character already there and she's cut out, and the biracial teacher is whitewashed. Like, what the heck.
sweetie, they are white so of course they would say that why do you think your comment has so little likes white the comments with black women defending her are beloved
@@AmandaFromWisconsin there is a huge difference between creating a fictional world that is set during a historical time period, and writing a fictional story that takes place in a very real world that is MEANT to be historically accurate. Nice try though.
as someone whos white, i'll ask people of the same ethnicity of my characters of their experiences and to help me write them. i think why others don't want to write is because they're too afraid of coming off as rude or offensive which i don't think is a bad thing.
On one hand, yeah there should've been a black character. But I would rather a privileged person who KNOWS they can't tell a proper story about a black character quit than try and fail and bolster stereotypes or racism in the process. I would've told her to consult the few primary or secondary sources we have of black women during the time.
agreed! There are so many talented poc directors that depict the struggle and stories of poc that people can relate to! I wouldn’t think Sofia Coppola would really be praised just for including poc. As a poc I see her movies as a general and universal struggle of feeling engaged and isolated for ex. Virgin suicides. It would feel off to have her depict a poc story without any knowledge and gain more recognition for it than an actual POC director who depicts similar experiences. For ex. Barry Jenkins the director of Moonlight. An amazing poc director that portrays a quite similar auora in a sense the cinematography has that blue ghostly cast feeling.
who act as if this was a original story! the black characters were ALREADY there, the blueprint was there. she just didn’t want a black lead and i don’t respect her anymore smh.
If Quentin Tarantino can remake the same movie about sex bad violence, we can all deal with Sofia
At least Tarantino have racial diversity
@@cindykpower but racial diveristy isn't the end of it. the quality of that diversity needs to be taken into question as well. its not enough to just have minorities "there".
@@elleofhearts8471 Thank you for saying my exact thoughts so well
Ye cus kill bill and django are exactly alike
Have you even watched any of Tarantino's movies?
You can't really fault Coppola for the lack of diversity in her films because, like you said, her characters come from a place she knows and has lived through. Diversifying the cast for the sake of diversity would ultimately fail because it is unlikely she'd do those characters any justice. It's best to leave those narratives to directors of colour that can actually do it and do it well.
but why would it matter if it’s not an original film, she didn’t create the characters
she literally white washed black characters in beguiled, removed a black character and whitewashed poc in the bling ring
Yeah it’s a “damned if you do dammed if you don’t” situation. If Coppola includes POC she’ll be criticized for not understanding POC . Coppola will be criticized for being a white women, writing roles for a group of people she doesn’t know & could never relate to. If Coppola doesn’t include POC then she’s in trouble for not having a diverse cast
@@kaylabeyThere are no black characters in the book, my gosh🤦♀️ Why would you force it.
Sure, but is it really so impossible to just find people of color who can comment on that experience and advise you? She also consciously chose to make a movie in that setting, deriving a work which originally included POC.
I feel like while Coppola does this with white female adolescence euphoria manages to do this for a much more diverse set of teens. She puts her own personal lens into perspective which gives her an advantage for certain things but I think we need to recognize the nuances in her work. She can’t be responsible for everyone we need to let more women in with different point of views to capture what it means to be woman.
The reality is it’s not always about being a woman or lacking talent, rather where are the resources and opportunities to begin with. I would definitely love to see a review of her work from a WOC.
Euphoria??? Euphoria is not at all as diverse as y’all make it out to be
@@bubbles4897 its a lot more diverse than other shows without using token characters
Carmander a lot more meaning 4%
That Being Said what would you like to see
There’s just no way she can go right. If she had included a slave in The Beguiled she would have been criticized for not portraying her correctly. Also what’s wrong with only portraying what you know? I think that’s the most humble position you can take. She can’t speak for people less privileged than her because she doesn’t know what their reality is like. She sticks to speak about her privilege in a way that is self-criticizing which I think is the smartest thing she could do.
Emilia Anderson Agreed! She basically said she didn’t have the range and stated in her lane and I appreciate that more than trying and failing horribly at any depiction of woc. I disagree about the dwontroddeness of woc though. It doesn’t need to be like that, and sometimes it isn’t!
But she can quite literally put actresses of color in her films, that’s nothing to do with what you know. She’s actively choosing to hire and portray white women.
I just don't think woc should be erased from stories for the sake of directors comfort level with these characters. Represent historical stories as fairly as possible, even if the story is from the skewed perspective of the privileged white character. She can learn and collaborate. I would rather she represent the thoughtless, casual racism of privileged people, on the side, than completely dismiss POC's existance.
She could have not made a movie about slavery if she wasnt comfortable putting slavery on film??? It's really not that complex
The thing is SHE CAN’T WIN in this argument unless it was co-produced, co-directed, written by a female person of color...Or is she removes herself from the film entirely. There is a bias against her because of her body of work, her privilege and her choice of muse-a very white, very blonde Kirsten Dunst. If she does as this video essay suggest, I bet she’ll be accused as patronizing or using black characters as props since the main characters are all white women. If she is not confident with how to portray “nuanced” black characters, why force her?
I am caribbean so maybe my comprehension of skin color might be different from the american perspective but Sofia Coppola is my favorite director and being a black person watching her films (because of how delicately she deals with the topic of being a confused, sad, and lonely as a girl) it calls my attention how she relates perfect blonde super pale white blue eyes females with her stories when she doesn't even look like that. I think sofia c has so much dependency on how she understands (maybe for laziness who knows) that her kind of delicate portraits of women can only be shown trough the eyes of that kind of females because thats the only people she understands than can be like that, not even the ones that look more like her and I think that is the reason why she doesnt feel comfortable doing things with other skin colors.
Marie Antoinette is genuinely the most beautiful movie I've ever seen. The shots, costumes, music, lighting, everything is utter perfection. I wished she did more with the "gilded cage" commentary and her relationship with her husband but I can't fault her for anything else. Its just too beautiful and thoughtful to be degraded. Frankly though, I really didn't like her stylistic and narrative choices in Virgin Suicides, but it is probably just personal taste as opposed to lack of skill
She is actually a truly great mind. But just because she was born a rich woman everyone is Hellbent on making her out to be this shallow silly girl. Poor thing. Also I don’t think she is not inclusive. She is being respectful. She knows it’s not her place to write about other women’s experiences. It is the right, educated thing to do.
I hope you have gotten healthy from the brainworms that had you claiming writers should exclusively write copies of themselves as characters. What kind of backwards, bookbruning ass mentality is that?
I would do the same thing, I am not a black women so i will never experience what they went through, I would have to have a writer with those experiences. Like you said she probably thought it wasn't her place
Nailed to the point. Summarises audiences double standards. You respect it and stay out of such a certain depiction - you're ignorant and not inclusive. As soon as you try to be inclusive, you get it completely wrong and misunderstand the struggles of certain women. Artists do art for themselves, it's not their job to include every persons experience in their vision. You just find someone to resonate with. Nobody cares whether or not indie directors like Paul Thomas Anderson or Noah Baumbach have POC in their storytelling? Same applies for other male filmmakers?
The problem isn't that directors don't want to be inclusive, the problem lies within the industry unwilling to give spotlight to certain artists who would be able to retell certain narratives properly, that's a totally topic however.
Just one thing. Imagine her movies being made by a male director.. celebrated genius of Hollywood.
Awfully presumptuous given that men are frequently denigrated in Hollywood for similar reasons. But sure, keep playing that note and see how it sounds.
We dont have to imagine, Wes Anderson exists
@@kristinalfc5846 lmao spot on
@@kristinalfc5846 they are nothing alike.
I really appreciate the aesthetic of the shots of you, the narrators, feels like it really fits the topic at hand, and for some reason the choice framing and distance from the camera feels kind of fresh and unusual, har to put into words why though. I guess and hope it was intentional and inspired by Coppola? :)
Anyway, insightful as always, thank you for all the hard work on this!
there's room for all the 2 dimensional usually white macho man and adolescent boy story lines and ppl get their knickers in a twist over rare and popular young women's story lines calling them vapid because they're what, misogynists
Ah the hypocrisy
so agreed
Can't ever believe Kirsten Dunst never won a Grammy. One of the absolute best best actors,hands down.🥰
Do you mean an Oscar? A Grammy is a music-oriented award.
I wonder what it is about Kirsten Dunst particularly that intrigues Coppola
ned flanders She was probably just satisfied with her on the first movie and stuck with her. Directors tend to do this ( Nolan, Scorsese, Soderbergh )
Oh my, Dunst has the exact face and aura that emanates fr the Coppola canon, if you will.
It's lovely and soft, but memorable and compelling somehow, despite regular or perhaps unspectacular individual facial features. I find her quite beautiful.
And her characters and ensembles all come together so strikingly; they stick in the mind in exactly the way Coppola's meditative yet intense narratives seem to do...
She is an actress that I think has an old world glamour and will be able to continue to hold our on-screen attention as she ages gracefully.
To me, there's nothing appealing or captivating about Kirsten. Perhaps bc she fits the bland white girl aesthetic? Like she could be any girl yet one who happens to be placed in a pedestal, so she's relatable that way.
I feel like there’s always a kind of dreamy melancholic unreachable look in her eyes and in her expression... that might really fit into the characters Copolla has her played
@@MinkytheMinkY Really? Dunst looks bland and average to you, you must be living in a town full of beautiful people then because that lady is gorgeous
This was a brilliant visual essay, thank you, ladies. I think Coppola's film definitely has a distinct quality that absolutely does have a place in the analysis of woman/girlhood and is existence in the world. That being said I don't purposefully seek out or enjoy Coppola's work. As a black woman, I have lived a lifetime of having images of beautiful and tragic privileged white women rammed down my throat presenting considerations that I've never had acknowledged and elements of wispy romanticism that I will never achieve. In fact, your analysis from 10:23 - 10:33 nailed it perfectly! Where are the romantic depictions of black woman/girlhood that don't also involve some deeply tragic racial and or sexual violence?!
The criticism of Coppola by male critics is fascinating; she's allowed to be the only woman in the room because of her background and privilege but the other male occupants of the room will forever remind her that she's only a woman and therefore should know her place. There would be a vacuum for this type of work if it didn't exist because it actually provides a counterfoil to the harsh patriarchal imagery we've had to endure as meaningful and righteous for so long!
POC representation shouldn't be sofia's responsibility especially since she's so idiosyncratic for writing purely and truly exactly what she knows. I think to bring in the awareness of the underclass, minorities or slaves would've distracted from her point of view of privileged obliviousness she's showing - we never even saw the revolutionaries in marie antoinette, our focus still remained on her and what she was feeling which was fear for herself at the time. A self absorbed point of view of this enclosed space is what you get from a sofia coppola movie so why try and change her instead of watching directors who will show what you want? It's also patronising to assume everyones going to react to art as if it were propaganda, my sympathies are still going to lie with the underclass of france lmao. Point of views are in abundance and they shouldn't instill a sense of lacking in you for your own. You can see the oppressors side and still go back to your life knowing they're an oppressor its ok.
This was SO well made. There should be a pastel council where we all kindly talk about these things and move forward with history. Beautiful work, I'm a fan now!
As an early 30s, mostly male presenting, person of color I am not at all what would be considered Coppola's "demographic", whatever that means these days, but I'll chime in. She's a favorite of mine. Bar none.
What people deem superficial & vacuous about her films is precisely the point. I've shown "Bling Ring" to several friends because I find the handling of celebrity, the public's gaze to that celebrity & the need to be famous for fame's sake-by any means necessary-both intoxicating & revolting in equal measure. Think Lindsay Lohan walking to court in slow motion wearing all white as camera bulbs flash all around her. She's telling us that what we revere & then devalue-through a usually male gaze-is precisely what has us fucked up;
that we can-& usually do-take these acts of scopophilia into places that are destructive of ourselves & each other.
This is where she implicates us all. This is Coppola at her most universal. Her inability to see beyond her white, cis-gendered, heteronormative & outrageously privileged upbringing is also part of her art. The fact that she can't see beyond her privilege to treat anyone else not in her immediate circle, if she treats them at all, as anything other than a prop is telling us volumes about privilege itself: that it is not as grand & empowering as we think it is but actually incredibly myopic.
She treats many of her other films & their subjects in much the same way. She appears to say that what shimmers might not be gold but might actually even be shit. Think about a drunken Stephen Dorff getting a blow job right before falling asleep mid-way at the Chateau Marmont. I started this review with her more recent films but this also goes for The Virgin Suicides. An absolute favorite since the moment I saw it. I knew Coppola was onto something upon first viewing.
Ever wonder why the visuals are so lush yet the story so dark? Why the Lisbon girls' story is told by boys in retrospect? Why the Lisbon sisters' narrative is over before it even began?
Coppola has both the ability to call upon her toxic upbringing & denounce it while also giving us glimpses into how this toxicity affects people outside her immediate circle by proxy (Think Scarlett Johansson ordering at a Japanese restaurant & how she treats the Japanese culture in 'Lost In Translation'). She started with a seed of these themes in her early oeuvre but then expanded upon them.
To take your privilege & denounce it-instead of merely leaning into it-takes serious cojones.
I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Do you write essays or have anything published? If not you should seriously consider it
It's so gross how Coppola's "pretty" and "girlish" aesthetic has always been instantly regarded as "vapid", ONLY BECAUSE it's an aesthetic that stereotypically parallels girlhood. Like, people disregard it as if it has no value only because, on a surface level, it matches their preconceptions of gender. So, what, a girl can't release a "girly" movie without it being regarded as "girly"? Why can't it be regarded as the CREATIVE CHOICE that it is? I guarantee if a dude was to release a film with an aesthetic like that, critics would be quick to analyse and deconstruct the 'meaning' behind it, even if it has none. And if a dude releases a film that is overly masculine, no one bats an eye at the possibility that it might be totally vapid (most blockbusters are examples of this).
Sofia Coppola has proven herself an excellent director, CLEARLY. I just feel terrible that, while men are praised for bold directorial choices, she is disregarded purely on the basis of her gender.
"You're entranced with the beauty of these films as you're watching them, and struck with melancholy for days after"
Oh my God YES. I watched the virgin suicides twice a few years apart and both times I felt melancholic and strangely sad and apathetic for 2 days after. And I knew it was the movie. Sophie's movie have such an impact I cannot explain!
personally the virgin suicides and marie-antoinette are both two of my favorite films, I absolutely adore her soft aesthetic and as a black woman I took alot of inspiration from them. im still a bit new into this film exploration and learning all the film directors and such but i plan on becoming a film director myself and creating my own show about the struggles of growing up, loneliness and addiction and it's very exciting for me, i will bring black representation to the screen in ways i hardly see spoken about
Lana is a great artist in my estimation and she's asking questions a bit awkwardly and naively - but that's how people learn. As a feminist and a woman of colour I embrace her and hopes she realises there is definitely a place in feminism for her.
Feminism was invented by the CIA. To break up the family. It worked.
Amazing video and analysis, you make me want to watch every movie that apears In the video, even after showing many negative critiques, you manage to convince me to dedicate my time to her works.
20/10 lana impersonation off the bat. Let's talk about white fragility
Let’s!
I love how art from the female perspective involves the inner turmoil that women experience trying to understand their place within the patriarchy. Virginia Woolf relates this as well as Bronte with the downfall of their characters when they fail to do so. I feel Sofia nails this concept beautifully.
In my opinion The Beguiled doesn't have to be an all embracing dissertation on the social and political situation of the South, but just a story about this very specific group of girls. Even if a black character surely would have been interesting, I find Coppola's argument valid. The Beguiled is not a film about the tragedy of slavery and I would have probably found it quite offensive if the problem wasn't addressed properly, so probably Coppola chose the wisest course.
So simply by including the characters who were meant to be in this story in the first place then suddenly she’s directing a dissertation on socio politics in the South? I’m so tired of these kind of excuses and justifications. It’s sad that it’s seen as some sort of insurmountable challenge that Coppola actually challenge herself by not purposefully erasing POC from stories and places they were in in the first place. I for one did not know about the characters she erased and I’m really disappointed.
I actually really like that first sentence. Those were some words I needed when looking at this problem. It's fiction. It's a story that someone made up. If her story was about "black" slaves, yeah, this would probably be a pretty important issue. I don't care if Sofia is telling the truth on her reasoning or not. If the only way people can tell stories about PART of that time period in PART of the arising United States of America is to leave "black" slaves out of any further films. I'm actually here for it. If it ruins the quality of those films well then maybe it's time to hang that time period up. It's been COVERED! Otherwise, let her accomplish what she is trying to accomplish thematically in whatever fictional way she wants to. As long as we're not using this in US History 101, I think we're fine, people.
@@Ms.Histrology what is the worse of 2 evils in the context of this film, erasure or misrepresentation?
@@Ms.Histrology Somebody else made the comment that I find interesting: The people who criticize Sofia Coppola for cutting out the black female slave character in "The Beguiled" because of the historical inaccuracy are the same people who praise a show like "Bridgerton".
@@AmandaFromWisconsin see that’s the problem, why do you think those two are the same? Yes both focus on bringing forward POC characters but that’s all about it honestly. People who criticize Sofia for historical inaccuracy in “the beguiled” whether they are or not the same people who champion “Bridgerton” for including POC and Black characters are not talking about the same topic. This just shows ur lack of critical thinking skills. People praise “Bridgerton” for bringing forward and giving lead roles to POC and black characters where they typically would not be found in cinema and tv in general let alone time period pieces. People who criticize Sofia for the lack of a black character for historical inaccuracy are talking about that topic exactly. If Sofia wants to make a movie about a time in history and make fiction out of it, that is completely fine. The topic of why she couldn’t add black or POC characters is yet another whole different topic. Why couldn’t she? Bridgerton’s writers are white and yet they have a diverse cast. No one is saying she can’t write fiction on a point in history we’re just saying why can’t she add diversity? It’s an excuse at this point.
i remember watching the virgin suicides for the first time age 16 and being taken a back bc it was the first time i related to a female characters because they truly acted the way that i did and the way that women in my life acted- i get the same feelings from ladybird, little women, daisies, mustang and lost in translation. these films aren’t made or about men or there ideas of what men think women should be and so they become disliked by male critics. this was the first time i’d seen a female lead outside of a romantic, happy ending love story context which is generally the only place women are represented as love interests or as leads in rom coms. it was refreshing to see young women portrayed with more purpose than to find love. for me i love her films because they represent real complex women that often don’t subscribe to any traditionally male qualities which shows that you can be a strong woman without being masculine (of course you can be a strong woman and masculine too bc all expressions of femininity are valid and beautiful)
When I read and hear men critiquing Coppola's movies by saying that they are just shallow depictions of beauty, I really pity them. Sofia Coppola is so good at portraying the inner thoughts, often despair, of characters through cinematography, it must be sad to not get to enjoy that mastery.
I feel she is strongly critiqued for a very narrow minded perspective of what the female experienced truly is in its entirety, but as other directors (mostly men) go overlooked for having that same tunnel vision of ways to tell a story, even praised for it.
Truly, she is to be criticized for many reasons, her movies aren't for everyone and it's hard to relate at first glance what the deeper meaning is, the same movies are easy to never watch again or finish.
But understanding a different perspective of life, especially if you are of a different gender, culture, race, sexuality, etc. can be to some impossible, but for those who have the patience and sensibility, often can.
I think she does have this capacity, to understand the complexity of the female experience or a different race, but she chooses not to and that's okay.
@GiRayne Sadly, this is true.
If she represents POC or not she will be criticized because women in the industry are judged on a higher standard and have no room for error.
Sometimes we aren't the person to tell someone else's life experiences and that's fine, not everyone has to tell everyone else's stories.
I think it’s not ok to just use references where women of color are at the center of the story, either erurase or sideline them for her interpretations and use the same complex nuance storytelling that was meant for the WOC for privileged white women. She did that this numerous times and that’s where the problem comes in I feel a lot of people give excuses for her bc of the nostalgic, fragile feminity aesthetic she displeases in her films and while I 100% agree there’s a double standard to her and other white male directors in this exact same criticism (Christopher Nolan is a prime example for this point given that he not only whitewashed two minority Batman comic book characters for the dark knight trilogy but also the real life black British and British Indian soldiers for Dunkirk) I don’t feel that should make sofa a exceptional pass, however I will give her credit for her upcoming film on the rocks with rashida Jones as the lead role
@@Kevin-rg3yc Why is she obligated to show POC in her films?
I was obsessed with The Virgin Suicides as a teenager/young adult. It was easy to relate to the characters, not because I lived in parents such as theirs, but because of this feeling of what was understood but unspoken in ourselves. Loved the book too!
I think directors kinda forget that diversity includes not only color but also size and texture. Growing up I never saw anyone in movies who had my skin or wore my size dresses. But I can see that's all changing slowly but surly.
that's so true. its ridiculous how often directors or stylists or hair stylists dont know what to do with textured hair or make up for actors of color or plus sized people or a combination fo these to the point that actors do their own hair and make up and dont look as good as they could if only they had the right clothes.
Fat people are disgusting either way, it doesnt matter what clothes they have on.
@@Pestbringer89 I'll never understand why people make comments like yours and seem to believe they're doing something good. People's worth is not determined by what their body looks like but by their character. And based on you comment, it appears to be your character that is disgusting. I pray that you manage to find peace and healing from this hate that you harbour in your heart.
@@monkiram Well, i atleast can tell when someone is fat, he or she is really bad at setting boundaries, has weak willpower and addicted to unhealthy food.
@@Pestbringer89 No you cannot. I am a recently-graduated medical doctor with a master in public health and in undergrad I majored in neuroscience and psychology. Despite all my knowledge of medicine, psychology and public health, even I cannot claim to have such a thorough knowledge of a person based on a very vague comment that they made. I suspect that their comment was so vague because of rude people like you who take it upon themselves to make unsolicited rude replies.
Firstly, you cannot know from the original comment what the original poster's nutrition status or even BMI is, making assumptions based on vague and generic statement doesn't make you smart, it just makes you presumptuous. Secondly, even if you know that somebody is obese, you certainly cannot make conclusions from this about that person's diet or activity levels let alone about their willpower or boundaries. There are countless factors that contribute to obesity, very many which are not the fault of the obese person. Even the causes that you have convinced yourself are the most salient (ie. overeating) are influenced by many upstream contributing factors.
I could give you a list of all the medical causes of obesity and all of their contributing factors, but I will not waste my time on that because it is easy to google and more importantly, because I suspect you have already heard most of them already. For some reason, you chose to ignore all these facts anyway and convince yourself that being obese somehow makes somebody a bad person and that somehow makes them deserving of disrespect. Both conclusions are untrue.
I'm sorry that being rude anonymously to others on the internet is what you have chosen to do with your limited time on this earth. I hope you find a more meaningful calling.
If she'd featured a Black female slave in The Beguiled (making that her first time featuring a Black woman in one of her films, I believe) I would have SCREAMED. I get your point but please don't argue that this would've been an empowering move! It would have been sooo tasteless. Otherwise, I love your analysis of how her upbringing affected her films' aesthetics and narratives!!
I dated a black woman briefly.I still don't know what was going on then.She wouldn't let me be equal to her?And I wouldn't let her be equal to me,likely in part.Dance the Melbourne shuffle,helped me past some gloom.
Hi there. For sure, but I do think a lot of the comments surrounding this are not questioning why Coppola would set a film in that time period at all if she didn't want to further any sort of stereotype. And at the least, there could have been an opportunity to hire BIPOC writers and consultants to actually bring forth a nuanced perspective - since the reason we've been inundated with stereotypes of downtrodden and 'strong Black women' is because they are most often coming from white people. So I agree that she herself shouldn't have included an enslaved character - but then perhaps don't set a movie in the Antebellum south and risk erasing an entire group of people from such a politically charged time period.
@@BroeyDeschanel why do you wanna see black people as slaves so bad? you aren't a black girl so please stfu on "they should've included blacks bc it was set in that time."
@@alext3480 girl shut the hell up! we were slaves, deal with it.
@@kaylabey YOU were. OUR ancestors were
Great video, Coppola is definitely underrated and i could honestly watch Virgin Suicides and Lost in Translation on repeat. Now i want to know what you'd say about The Bling Ring too! It has that ethereal melancholy mentioned but also a very peculiar perspective, quite removed as if holding you at arms length, preventing you from fully engaging with the characters. I'm not sure many of the general public would have left that screening feeling satisfied lol
The Bling Ring felt very glamorized but I guess it because it was from a Teen perspective of trying to achieve a lavish life style through crime.
I hate how women in many industries (music, films) are expected to reinvent year after year, while men in their fields remain the same after years
Good as always - always like the citations provided. I would recommend in the future saying enslaved rather than just saying slave bc enslaved is more humanizing. Using an adjective rather than a noun in regards to slavery I think helps people recognize that enslaved people were still people with emotions and feelings.
Coppola is such a good director but also very underrated. It's nice to finally see a video about her! :)
This is an excellent video essay! I've only seen two of Sofia Coppola's films, Lost in Translation and Marie Antoinette. I believe your analysis of Marie Antoinette is spot-on, and as she did with LiT a few years earlier, Coppola is able to make you feel what the character is feeling through her use of the camera coupled with the images she presents. Curiously I've never had a chance to see The Virgin Suicides (though I've always wanted to) and missed out on The Beguiled, but I want to see them now more than ever based on your analysis. It's troubling to me that her reasoning for not including the Black characters in her adaptation of The Beguiled is that she wouldn't do them justice. I think, if anything, the least you could is do some research, include them in the movie, and trust your actors and story-telling abilities to bring them to life, in as honest as a way as you can. I am not Black, nor do I identify as a woman, but I've always been compelled to write about and include strong women and characters of color in my short stories and films. It's the least I could do to increase inclusion and representation. And if I don't know something I do the research and/or find women and people of color to collaborate with. Anyway, it's great to see such thoughtful content on UA-cam. Subscribed!
really admirable ! excited to see what you put out
Just throwing the words "great" "interesting" "good points were made" into the algorithm. And "tik tok".
🔥 *What a great analysis!*
Nobody ever talks about Lana del Rey when she releases brilliant music and videos produced and directed by her or when she shows affection and complete devotion to fans and her art or when she collaborates with amazing artists or when she donates to the New York Orchestra or the Navajo water Project or when she uplifts and promote fellow women artists. But when she complains about how she has been treated by the culture (which concerns herself only since we are incapable of feeling other people feelings) everyone judges, gives opinions and hate.
This is correct and for me, devastating in its relatability. The people and parts of society that are intent upon upholding and fortifying toxicity will essentially pretend that the only facet of a person's nature (particularly a young, beautiful, and enviable person), is that which they see as deserving their harsh criticism. It is as if no good could possibly exist nor be generated from the individual they are actively and abusively tearing down. My own brother stated this to me: "People only see the bad. No one cares that you did nine good things. They only focus on the one thing they didn't like."
I will say, Sofia's student short LICK THE STAR is one of the best I have seen, I mean it doesn't hurt that your dad is literally F.F. Coppola, but many children of great directors often don't live up to their parents.
I really liked that short when I first saw it a few years ago.
Superb video, you've made me reconsider my previous dismissal of Ms Coppola as a purveyor of pretty glossy surfaces and made me see that, despite some flaws, she tells stories with depth and resonance. Keep up the great work (o:
FINALLY, A CHANNEL THAT ACTUALLY IS EMPATHETIC TO THOSE IT CRITICIZES. This is actually something I can take it, meditate on, and decide whether or not I agree or pen my mind to a different point of view. Your view is very central and fair, and I believe all criticisms should be this way because if you cannot take into account the reason something happened, the logic behind why something is done or was done, and the moral or other justifications that that person had, while also looking at the positive or negative effects of their actions and how it is hurtful or beneficial to certain people, your opinion is one-sided and only holds half the merit of a central view that has looked at both sides and make very few declarations about what is right or wrong, why are we entitled to make a declaration on somthing accept for what is directly concerned and only effecting us.
Great analysis. I bet Coppola would make a great adaptation of Turtles All the Way Down.
This was so well done Maia! Please do more director's filmography analysis like this! I would love to see your take on PTA's theme of protagonists who struggle with their masculinity as many critics have criticised PTA for simply "celebrating toxic masculinity". Keep up the good work!
Imagine how good it could be if Sofia Coppola joined together with a black director, producer, story teller, author, and provided her beautiful aesthetic dreamscapes but for a story told by a black woman. I think it's a collaboration that would be stunning- not a white woman telling that story on behalf of black women, but having the story told to her and putting it into the vision that's been detailed.
I was thinking this too. I really don't see what would've been so hard about it. The whole "I dont want to misrepresent a group of people because I don't know what its like to be them" is a valid point to make to an extent. It then falls on its face when I remember that black creators also exist and that movies by nature are collaborative and provide collaborative opportunities. I dont like having to think of the worst in people but with all of this considered , the only reasoning I could think of for why she didn't do what you described is: pure laziness or pure greed and since neither are a good look, the erasure excuse provides a way to escape both.
@@elleofhearts8471 well, I guess all we can do is hope that she sees the talk about her films being all white and decides she needs to do something about it. Because I think she does such an amazing job at showcasing that kind of dreamy and sad female mentality, she has to understand that it's female, not just white female (nor even just cis female)
I'm sorry to sound this dissonant note of criticism against an otherwise perfect analysis of Coppola's work but...I didn't need to see black slaves in The Beguiled. Seen enough of it, no thank you, no more. I didn't even know there was a black slave character originally in the book but if she's not in it here? I'm good. I'm not missing out on anything I can't find anywhere else.
For all this talk of wanting to see historically accurate representation on screen, little mind is ever paid to how it actually _feels_ for someone who looks like the person on screen to be perpetually depicted in chains or without free will. For just a moment imagine what that must be like. Spoiler alert: you can never enjoy period drama ever again because you don't _want_ to picture yourself there.
If Coppola decided to colour the story Antoinette with a brush of the personal experience and focus in, as you say, on the queen as a person, why not grant her other films this same olive branch? Her artistic vision is allowed ooooonly when there's characters that aren't white and ideally, darker skin, so as to preemptively please and represent everyone. Is that the fate of cinema and art to come?
So often I've seen comments acquiesce, 'Well if the artist doesn't know how to do proper representation and can't speak on such complex experiences, if she just wants to tell her story through a character, she should just stay in her lane!' I ask - is this not exactly that?
Coppola is using what she knows, what she's experienced, in her life and her career, and widening that lens to talk about the larger issue of female suppression experienced by all women, of all walks of life. If she makes good and true art, it will speak to me. I can picture myself as Antoinette. I can imagine what it must be like to be so suffocated and lacking agency during the Civil War. Coppola will have done her job. I do not expect and I cannot stand when poc characters are onscreen with shallow backstories and have to only say a maximum of two human lines before some mention of their oppression is shoved in.
It's old! We get it! The fates of these poc are locked into place and they're always either freed, about to be freed, or forever oppressed. Let poc directors and writers tell their stories, watch their movies, invest in their creations. White people would much prefer to watch a known white creator twist and rework their art to include the non-white experience, instead of actually go out of their way to listen to black people who are actually telling their stories. I'm tired of the virtue signalling and I'm tired of what it's doing to art. Sorry this turned into a rant but I've seen so much of this recently I had to say it at some point, unpopular though it maybe be.
Well said. I think in this case she would be criticized no matter what she chose (and to be honest that’s not a very healthy position for a creator to find themselves in)
Couldn't agree more.
Art is not, and should never be, about comfort. Art is what we use to express ourselves, and no one should have to feel like they need to bend the knee and start trying to please everybody because "we don't want anyone's feelings to be hurt". Yeah, screw that.
Most art isn't there to make you feel warm and fuzzy and safe within yourself: no. It's there because it's a product of ourselves and how we choose to tell stories. It doesn't care about what its spectators want it to be. Art remains as it is, and should do so, unswayed by sensitivity or demands.
If you want movies about POC, then make them, you know what I mean? I feel like trying to make artists feel bad for their creative endeavors and how they choose to express themselves defeats the purpose of freedom of expression through art.
Well that was wordy. Anyways, I totally agree with your points.
@@sophie-mp7hs Yes, thank you
very well said thank you
I just made a comment similar to your sentiment, and just started reading threw old comments. I 100% agree. No more!
As my friends always liked the period pieces and Jane Austen etc I've never really been interested in them, not even the films although I love the costumes and scenery. But Coppola's Marie Antoinette is different, I liked it since it came out (I was 16) and have liked it ever since. It's just so different to a lot of other period pieces (that also deals with "feminine" matters) and much more melancholy. I don't know, it's just fascinating to me.
I would be really interested to see a video like this analyzing Lana Del Rey's music. I agree that that statement of hers was ignorant, and a missed opportunity to create a bridge between different female experiences. But in spite of this, I really love LDR as a musician, and I have similar questions in my mind about the perspective that she puts forth. I guess this is the question: At what point does speaking from one's own, potentially narrow, experiences stop being and act of humility, and start being the exact opposite? And when and how is it appropriate to represent experiences that are not your own? I'm perplexed by my own love of her music, because I'm usually not interested in that sort of rich, conventionally pretty, sex/money/fame driven aesthetic in music, or in anything, and she is certainly not singing about my personal experiences. But it still somehow resonates with me. There must be something else under there. Some complexity under the surface. And I think it might be something similar to what Sofia Coppola is doing. Thanks.
That would be great actually.
Why UA-cam works with an algorithm that needs me to leave a comment to help a channel when I don't have anything meaningful to add is beyond my reason.
Great video
This video is talking about Coppola’s directorial body of work. Why are y’all surprised that the comments are talking about her and not white cis het male directors... we already know they’re problematic! This isn’t new information.
It’s necessary to analyze and critique her work when her whole career has focused on white womanhood, white femininity, and white women’s purity/fragility. She chose to remake The Beguiled which is situated during the civil war (in the South!!) AND with her specific lens actively warped the context and erased the experiences of Black women.
She has used the excuse to not include BIPOC characters in her stories because she doesn’t want to misrepresent them.
But a film production can be a collaborative process. You can include different perspectives from creatives that belong to those communities.
I think it goes deeper than that. Specifically with The Beguiled, removing the two Black women characters helped keep the perceived narrative of white women’s fragility alive. Because now they no longer treat other human beings as property, now you don’t get to see the twisted and insidious dynamic they have with Black women around them, NOW they’re just women in a big house fending for themselves. When historically white women though oppressed by the patriarchy, have not only been complicit but actively participated in upholding white supremacy. That doesn’t seem to be in alignment with purity, femininity, and fragility. The reality was in conflict with her lens.
I don’t know about you, but keeping white feminism alive seems really exhausting.
Free speech even when some of us have unformed sophmore vocals.Growing voice! Others have the masterclass.I prefer some juvey strength culture.I don't want to surrender to maturity and capitalism or socialism.I like moderate independents.
In her version of the beguiled the union soldiers were close it was common for slaves and indentured servants to leave. I’ve even read a diary of a woman describing how only the ladies were left to do all the chores. So it wasn’t historically inaccurate just different from the source material.
The entire idea of being a director is writing what you know, which literally all of them do, not just Sofia Coppola. Why should we expect a depiction of what being a black girl is like from somebody that has only experienced all the different paths of privilege and whatever that was like? I wouldn't be able to understand the depth of what living her life has been like, why blame her for not knowing mine?
Sophia's (and Lana's honestly) feelings are valid. Both are providing artistic nourishment to a specific group of people. And it's ok if it's not everyone!
I personally don't gather anything from her films but then again, I'm not in the demographic. But the fact that someone is finding something valuable in it, means that it's meaningful. And I can respect that.
Lana del rey is part of the liberal branch of feminism. A whole damn branch that has existed since the beginning of the movement. If I remember correctly Lana made her statement because people were saying she incites young girls to live like lolitas, which is obviously harmful and dangerous. And they were right, at least in her Paradise-Born to die era when she was younger and more popular. Gladly she has taken a few steps back from that imagery and today's youth doesn't hace the same interest in those albums anymore.
@@sophiegriffin8351 In her early albums, especially Honeymoon and Born to Die. She suggests strong "Americana" themes and nostalgia for "an older time". The Ride monologue comes to mind. I definitely wouldn't call it liberal, but not nessicarily conservative either. It really exists outside that binary.
can i just say that i love how many POC are in this comment section?! the diversity in this audience really says something about this channel, and i love all of the discussions its sparking!
Great video! I would have loved some commentary on 'Lost in Translation' as well; I love a lot of her movies but as a Japanese woman I found this film kind of painful and cringey at times and definitely enjoyed it the least of those I've watched. It weirds me out how many people love it and consider it her best movie - whilst I can see how Western audiences would be taken in by the soundtrack (which I do love!) and gorgeous visuals, my impression of the film kind of tied in to your comments here on 'The Beguiled'. Although she doesn't erase Japanese people from the story visually (which I kinda assume is due to colourism on her part, similar to Tim Burton) I noticed whilst watching how uncomfortable certain aspects of the film made me, with Asian characters feeling like they lacked any real personality, more just reduced to comedy props (mostly relying on very basic and unoriginal stereotypes, like being shorter or mispronouncing words). I do think it's possible to make this type of movie with themes of alienation in an unfamiliar culture and it be good, but I didn't feel she succeeded in that personally - it looks great, but I found myself wondering why she even bothered to set the film in Japan without bothering to give any Japanese characters depth, personality, or even more than 10-20 lines of dialogue. It ended up feeling more like white voyeurism and othering of a culture that means a lot to me, and I was really disappointed because the film is so hyped up that I didn't expect it to be so shallow :/ just another example of her inability to write characters who aren't white.
Sophia Coppola is one of my favorite film makers/artists. I'm a guy and I love all of her films and enjoy seeing the woman's perspective versus the man's. I also enjoy the Twilight films and get crap for that. Catherine Hardwick is also another of my favorite directors.
I don't know Catherine Hardwick, but I will look her up. Thank you!