@@GameChanger-xi4iy little guy, talk to a woman, im begging you. once you do you'll realise the bs that the andrew tates of the world push on young boys like you is a lie created to project their own flaws onto women.
"so much of girlhood is performance art" This is so uncomfortablely true. As we grow into our 'balanced fae real women' selves some of these things do cement others go away. Its trial and error i suppose.
don't mean to criticize or be mean but is this like a white people thing? I grew up in a latino community and I can't say I ever met a girl that behaved like a manic pixie dream girl most girls I met in high school and college were just normal people idk.
Removing the men from the equation or sidelining them while focusing on the girls would be so nice to see. The characters themselves are honestly so precious and interesting and the writing does them dirty every time
There are a lot actually, they are not recognized as manic pixie dream girls tho because the whole meaning of the trope is a faulty image of them from the boy's perspective. As soon as we drop a boy from the equation she is not manic and dream for anyone, but herself. Check another popular comment that also mentions that and some examples
@@Theywerehere While I agree with you, Manic Pixie girls are coded with certain tags: white, quirky, neon-colored hair, bookish, some undiagnosed mental illness, etc that the trope began to leech into unrelated genres and mediums such as cosplay. Zoeey Deschanel is a MPDG in real life even more than in her movies. She is a walking talking manic pixie and it might just be a front and good marketing but she leans into it. She doesn't really need a man to fit the tags. And you are understating the pervasiveness of the male gaze which functions subtly even without a living breathing male character in a movie but via something as innocuous as camera angles and lighting.
@@Theywerehere Yes, its the advertisers and agents who lean into it. Not Zoey herself. It's like in the 80s and 90s sex sells and so did cigarettes. But cigarettes cannot advertise on television anymore. Same thing here, feminism means sex no longer sells using misygonistic tropes and skinny Victoria Secret models. So advertisers brain storm and sell us the more accessible manic pixie image who is more down to earth, a compromise? Sex (& cigarettes) sells, as long as it is coded to modern tastes.
Things like the magic pixie dream girl remind us neurodivergent people (include me) how people only like us as a concept, but not as actual people, especially neurodivergent women and girls.
💀 ikr they love the idea of quirky women who's not like other girls but they'd force them to be "normal" irl. I'm not ND but I've had ppl bullying me and complaining about how weird I am bc I've always had difficulties w/ social interaction and they like me most when I just shut up and listen. It also got me thinking if looks have anything to do with it too bc I'm a bit taller than my peers, have a weird voice, and generally move kinda awkwardly. Time and time again I feel like I would've been liked more even with my current personality if I fit the tiny quirky girl mold lol
@@losj3020 RIGHT!!! how they obsess over a character that’s super quirky, but the moment that a neurodivergent person headcanons' them as neurodivergent because they have the symptoms and meet the criteria, they lose it 💀 I have undiagnosed ADHD and till the day, I'm still made fun of by ppl because of how I behave. ADHD doesn't appear the same way in girls and women so I'm constantly masking my symptoms (tho there are some that I cannot mask). Even worse is that my mom doesn't believe me and neither does my big brother (which is crazy because he to has ADHD yet he can’t even realize that his own sister has the same thing)
@@blossxmaWell if you’re undiagnosed with ADHD, look I am not a professional expert on psychiatry okay. But I will have to say you probably are undiagnosed with the neuro developmental disorder. Since if your brother has ADHD, then you probably have Type ll of (Attention-Deficit Disorder) than Type l, Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD). The first one is usually detected in young boys from childhood to young ones in adolescence. God adolescence is such a bitch sometimes and teenagers are just so mean & nasty all the time for no reason. They always look at you in a disgusted and negative way. Like wtf is your fucking problem dude? We do not even literally know each. YOU do not even know me okay, and I do not even know you either. Yet sometimes if someone is on the internet announcing that they are undiagnosed with some neurological disorder. Then I do believe you 99.5% of the time. And why is that because 99.0% of the time these Psychiatrist who are specialized in Psychiatry sometimes will overlook or overlap the symptoms of their patients is why they cannot see to find what is wrong with the patients they have. And why they are not being properly diagnosed with these issues. They are still not getting proper treatment to learn, prevent them from dealing with mental health issues & teaching them how to develop health “Coping Mechanisms”. Instead of using their sticks to help them manage and cope with emotional and mental distress combined with trauma e.g. Many people are undiagnosed with these conditions. Just to surprise you with this fact. There is a lot of people undiagnosed with ADHD and ADD than you think. The undiagnosed count is even higher than shown on these charts & graphics. This is why the medical community should not always be looked up to as the “experts”, when 1/5 of them 25% don’t even know what they are doing half of the time they are diagnosing, prescribing medications, & treating their patients.
@@blossxmaif you feel you are take strength in it, you will find people who get you even if family don’t. Personally I have just constantly bombarded family with facts and chatting about it (even though they hate it) that they’re slowly getting there, especially my mum who totally has it too. Just talking about is the only way to unstigmatise it longterm :)
I think what John Green means on "paper towns" is that actually, the whole mystery and search for the manic pixie dream girl, are created by the boy. She has her own life, her own decisions that she took by herself, informed by her own life which we- through the protagonist's eyes- have never even thought about. We spend the whole book looking and longing for her, but in the end, she was never ours. In the end, we have this big plot twist that she wasn't there for him, she didn't love him, he barely knew her. I think this is the criticism in the book and I saw this when I read it, but I think it might've been a bit too subtle and too easy to be misread for what John Green claimed it was supposed to be, if that makes any sense
Yes, I totally see that and think it was a slight subversion from typical depictions! But I think by doing this at the VERY end of the story, whilst spending the entire story framing her as a MPDG it just replicated the MPDG dynamic 😭 whereas you see with Eternal Sunshine and Betty Blue those stories spend the entire story unpacking the dynamic which is what makes them different imo. I do like John Green tho!
@@FinalGirlStudios Yeah I get that! I think it might've been for the big plot twist at the end effect, rather than a real deconstruction of the narrative, which for more analytical purposes (like the video which I loved btw- even sent it to my bf) feels kinda cheap maybe? Like easy writing, since it's just replicating the trope. Just thought I'd highlight the subversion cause maybe some people didn't even realize it because of how subtle it is. I haven't seen either of the movies you recommended here but I'll look for where to watch them after this :)
I feel like he tried to do or what he did was similar to “500 days of summer” since both girls were depicted as manic pixie dream girls but in reality we’re just subjected to the wonder bread boy gaze.
@@FinalGirlStudios If you don't mind me asking, what do you think of 500 days? You used a lot of clips of it but never directly addressed it, so I got curious It is a subversion in that same way, still being a very male-centric story, but it works a lot better than Green's version I feel. Though I might just be biased toward Joseph Gordon Lewitt ☺
this is exactly why i fell in love with The Virgin Suicides! the boys are so infatuated with the manufactured image they created for the Lisbon sisters that they don’t even see the slow, painful death happening right in front of them. their pain and suffering becomes yet another thing for the boys to feed off of. we see how the boys grow up, start families of their own and move on with their lives. in all those years, they still don’t understand their role in the tragedy. the girls are immortalized as mere objects in the mind of the boys who fantasized about them. in the movie we don’t fully understand why the Lisbon sisters resorted to suicide. it’s not laid out for us like it is in the book. but i actually appreciate this artistic choice. we’ll never fully understand the Lisbon sisters because our protagonists never cared enough to understand them.
I had my manic pixie dream girl's moment with my first relationship. He said he would never leave me, that i changed him forever... and then he left. On a last phone call (i never cried that much in my whole life) he said that he was tired of me acting childlike, he hated my dangling earings, that i was weird... Well, years has passed and turns out that i'm a Autistic ADHDer. A year after our breakup he wanted to come back into my life. I said a clear NO. He is dead to me.
well said, Is just weird when someone in this case a guy goes around looking for a "unique girl" and wants it founds one, doesn't actually likes her, is like "sorry for no meet your expectations but you don't meet mines either".
@@rowanjoy419Is because those guys usually like the idea of having a weird girlfriend, but they don't really want a weird girlfriend, they want a pretty girl who Is "adorkable". Is the same thing with boys saying that they want a goth girlfriend and when they get with one they try to change her into someone "normal".
@@despinasgarden.4100 this is exactly what happen to Angela Benedicth, she tells her story on her channel. Basically, she is an elder goth that was always in the scene but then this guy made her cut her hair, mocked her style, shamed her for her music taste and made her ultimately miserable... and he said he always wanted a goth girlfriend. *sigh*.
I don't understand men who want women that are into alt things but then detest them for it. Shit, I'd love to have a partner that's into the same weird shit that I am!
Girl, I get the sense that this is where my relationship is heading... I'm going to have a real talk with him... When he met me, everything was wonderful and I was unique, now he wants me to shave, to make me grow and paint my nails, use ordinary makeup to be more "beautiful"... Preparing for the end just in case
The worst part of internalizing the Manic Pixie Dream Girl was realizing it led me to romanticize Stale White Wonderbread Boys who thought they should be the center of every narrative in real life. Eventually I realized that I deserve partners who are interesting in and of themselves and not with me because I make them feel like they are more interesting than they really are. Stale White Wonderbread Boys can often show up as ‘Nice Guys’ until you realize the fragile egos and the unchecked entitlement many of those types carry. They often think that they can become more interesting if they just get an interesting girl to like them. Which is still a form of objectification. I would be lying if I didn’t say that the process to get to this realization was not a painful one with many hurts and disappointments.
This!! It’s one thing for people to play out these dramas in real life. The question of who gets the bigger budget and support for distribution is entirely different. So many people miss this distinction. Our art is as malnourishing as our ultra high processed food. What’s worse is that Americans export the junk art and junk food all over the world.
Yes! I feel like this also leads to women and girls feeling like they don't deserve/ couldn't be with someone better for you - who actually cares about you as person and wants to help you as well. At least it did for me.
As someone who highly relates to manic pixie dream girls (I'm autistic, so that might have a little to do with it) I married what a lot of people might consider a wonder bread boy. Mainly because he's kind, understanding, empathetic and grounded. He is stability in what is normally, for me, a very chaotic world, where it often feels like people don't seek to understand me, or don't have the patience to. I've never felt more safe, secure or heard by anyone than this man I've married. He's your typical gamer, that doesn't seem to express much whimsy, but I'm often imaginative enough to carry both of us away in conversation. This isn't a fresh relationship, I've known him for twenty years, and been married to him for seven. I wouldn't trade him for anyone. This doesn't work with all bread. Some can be stale, and their interest is shallow. But what drew me to him was his kindness and understanding, and how much we could make each other laugh.
I'm glad!! What a sweet comment. Yeah, it was sad seeing Perks of Being a Wallflower showing up here, the main character was lovely and relatable too due to his trauma....which I shared.
Your relationship sounds rather like that of my son and daughter-in-law. They've been together since high school and I've never seen a pair so well-suited to each other. And so much of their glue is making each other laugh.
My favorite "Manic Pixie Dream Girl" Is Lorelai Gilmore for this exact reason. She has all the personality traits associated with the concept but is viewed through the lens of a variety of people(including herself). Both favorably and unfavorably and is allowed to demonstrate the strengths and weaknesses of this personality type.
??? I'm just an observer here but Lorelai Gilmore is one of the most toxic and dysfunctional female characters ever written. You do not want to be Lorelai Gilmore. Lorelai is not a happy person and she doesn't make people around her happy. In fact, if Lorelai didn't exist within a fantasy that is Stars Hollow with her nigh infinitely wealthy parents and her finances that make absolutely no sense when we assume she isn't living on her parent's money, Lorelai would be clearly the villain. It's only because the writer's are protecting her from her continual bad choices that we even are sympathetic to Lorelai at all.
another 'manic pixie dream girl' i feel is quite popular is Hannah Baker, but only from the perspective of Clay. He views her as a concept of a person that can fix or change him, and when she's gone, he feels empty. He feels that his purpose is to find her, as seen throughout the series, both through the tapes and continuing to fight for her memory to stay in the minds of others.I reality, she was very troubled and struggling, but Clay thought her 'quirkiness' and attributes, like how she spontaneously cuts her hair, just existed for him. He goes crazy when he finds out she slept with another man, and tries to find a new girlfriend to fulfill his needs. That is why his new girlfriend (I forgot a lot of names, as I haven't watched it in a while) feel as if she wasn't supported by Clay, as he was still feening for Hannah, as the new girlfriend wasn't 'manic pixie dream girl' enough for him.
@@celebrim1i agree she’s not the most amazing person and her circumstances are unrealistic but she’s not an inherently bad person. she’s had a lot of pretty privilege and general privilege but she’s still kind and funny and intelligent. she genuinely loves people and knows when she does something wrong. needing help from people isn’t a moral failing. i will say that her woe is me thing is annoying but it’s not entirely baseless either so it’s kinda 50/50. i think she’s prob the one of the most realistic characters in the show honestly and if she were a real person id probably like her overall. (ur opinion is still valid ofc tho just my take)
Having to reject the stale white bonderbread boy because I could imagine the look on his face of utter disgust once he found out the manic pixie dream girl attributes were not the result of fun quirkiness but instead directly caused by childhood experiences of death, abuse, drugs, and fear … has anyone else experienced this ?
@briannadickson2884 The manic in manic pixie dream girl is there for a reason? It's a character by character basis but typically humans don't act "manic" for no reason. Some might just be like that personality wise, but realistically you're gonna find more people acting like that because if nurture not nature.
too real. it's all fun and games until the stale white wonderbread boy has to stick around and deal with the lingering trauma that made ms. manic pixie so manic in the first place
I feel like I am the male equivalent of a manic pixie dream girl. The worst thing is about feeling safe, but actually loosing traction with everything they get to know.
I feel this on a spiritual level. Guys who approach me with the intention of forming a romantic relationship are always like: "You're not like the others." Most of them told me that they are attracted to me because I am "weird" or "quirky". Bro I just have autism, it's not that deep. 💀 Amazing video as always
Just replace autism with ADHD and I have had guys say exactly the same thing to me in the past. I think a lot of these manic pixie characters are meant to be neurodiverse or portrayed that way.
i always related to manic pixie dream girls, even when they had the depth of a kiddie pool, and i think the tism is why. problem is, it's all fun and games and "cute and quirky" until they have to face the day to day reality that no, this is who i am, and i can't turn it off when it stops being "cute and fun" for you. my directness is "so refreshing" until it becomes irritating when i don't play by the BS multi-layered social rules in a situation where you want me to, because i just don't understand them or why people don't just say what they freaking mean. it's so "cool how i get so passionate about things" until they realize i can't turn my hyperfixation off and they're sick of hearing about it. like dude, it's not my fault you romanticized all this crap about me but then you don't like the reality of it.
To be fair, being a girl myself, I always empathised with the Stale White Wonderbread Boys. I understood them, I felt them, in many ways, I was them. In "The Perks of Being a Wallflower" and "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" especially. I was boring, I was quiet, and whenever someone payed attention to me I instantly felt drawn to them in hoping that they can change my life for the better. And I loved having films about characters like me. Boring, stale, sure. But we need representation too. Ironically, these kind of films helped me realised that I CAN'T depend on a different person to make my life better. I have to be my own Manic Pixie Dream Girl. No one will come and spark my life, that only happens in movies. And I'm glad I have them to comfort me along the way.
There is an Irish folklore creature that is a scary but cool, Vampiric, Manic Pixie Dream Girl, the Leanan Sidhe. She's a vampiric fairy-muse who offers poets and artists alike with creativity and inspiration and imagination..... in exchange for half of their lifespan. This lore was used to explain the sad and premature deaths of many a poet and artist and author.
whoa, I like that! I've been described as a vampiric mpdg before as I supposedly 'sucked' the life out the guys around me (I just had nice conversations and then stated I'm not interested...) well, turns out I'm neurodivergent and what was a basic conversation for me was next-level flirting for the guys...
Wow, I felt so seen. As a 25-year-old diagnosed with bipolar disorder, I have been multiple times compared to Ramona Flowers or with other manic pixie girls. Guys have talked to me like I am a literal fairy or like a fictional character that would add up some quirk and spice to their lives. And I absolutely relate to Clementine's quote, I have it tattooed on my mind. It's very sad when men think you are a cute little thing they get to play with until they get tired (or until they see it's actually a mentally ill girl with serious issues that are not always "fun") and throw you away. I felt this listening to "Liability" by Lorde as well, although I am not sure it is the official meaning of the song. Men like these also don't get it when you suddenly get serious or angry because they did something out of place, or when you set boundaries or even reject them. They are like "wow, you are so crazy for real! you were so fun and nice before, why are you rejecting me?". They never wanted to befriend you, they never saw you as a fully fleshed out person, you were just a thing. Anyways, loved the video! 💖
“Smoking is NOT COOL” I repeat to myself, for the 1,000th time, while smoking, listening to some edgy ass music and dressed like The Craft feeling like the absolutely coolest person you know
i hate the negative connotation that manic pixie dream girl carries, and stale white wonderbread boy is a beautiful term that i will use from now on. also, great video to watch before the scott pilgrim anime release! (apparently theyre focusing more on ramona in the show, which hopefully fulfills desires of wanting to see more of her character. the comics actually show ramona being a lot more in depth; she and scott grow together, rather than her being a tool for him to evolve.)
while watching this video, i realized that so many of the films i love that were made in recent years depict women who, if they were secondary to a white man, would inevitably fall into the manic pixie dream girl trope. lady bird, marie antoinette, fleabag, nellie from babylon, juno, frances ha, and perhaps even barbie. but they're the center of the story, and that's why it's interesting and why i love it so much. i can see the type of women i relate to and aspire to be for who they are, not for what men think of them. that's insanely liberating. we don't have to understand them through the lens of an annoying stale white wonderbread boy. they're interesting and charismatic, so they're the protagonist. like, imagine annie hall without having to see the world through woody allen's eyes! imagine annie hall but it's just annie hall! that would've been such a dream.
Why do we judge "stale white wonder bread boys" for finding us exciting? If we are performative, we are performing for someone and so what? Why aren't we allowed? It's like the pendulum swings without balance. Men, not even white men, are the enemy. Imbalance is the enemy. Men are awesome and I will be the first to admit it. That doesn't mean women aren't awesome or that we're less awesome. Opposites attract, we search for what we lack and there is nothing wrong with that and in fact is pretty exciting.
@@tiffanyl4829 it’s not the fact that they find us interesting. for example, almost famous is one of my favorite films and the protagonist is a plain white boy who is immature and inexperienced so of course this group of artists is fun and interesting to him. or scott pilgrim for example, the whole point of the film is that he is an asshole who pursues girls who are way out of his league, but the film itself is aware of this. however, if you take films by directors like godard, rohmer or woody allen, they (sometimes) take these uninteresting, immature (and borderline incel) men as relatable when they’re not. they have nothing to add to the conversation and mistreat women, and yet these are the films that are considered classics. my point is that sure, A LOT of men in the real world are great! but we still deserve art that views the world through our eyes, instead of almost exclusively viewing us through the eyes of a wonderbread man who sees us as a plot device to cure his existential crisis. most of the time, we too are going through shit, but only internally, since no one cares to explore them in a cinematic way. because of this, they feel less real compared to what men go through for having issues with their dad or whatever.
nellie from babylon is mpdg though? i mean that's how i saw it, we see her through Manny, the way she talks and acts and worse the way damien chazelle chose to dress her sexy and completely anachronistically, the character screams "i'm not like any other girl"
in addition to what you said, i think that the "manic pixie dream girl" is usually a pretty girl with traumas and mental health issues but also (sometimes) an interesting personality with resilience, confidence and bravery that the guys usually don't have. instead of the girls being admired for those qualities, they become just like harley quinn: a clown. someone who is there just for entertainment purposes, to distract the man from his own issues. i wonder what atracted the girls to guys like that... maybe they mistake boringness with stability.
It always makes me so upset how the whole point of Scott Pilgrim is that both Scott and Ramona aren’t great people (heck most of the characters except Knives and Wallace aren’t tbh), and yet up until recently it was mainly Ramona who got flack when Scott is just as bad if not worse than she is. She got stuck with the MPDG label despite not even really being one when you look more into it, and suddenly she’s the worst characters ever who “ruined a whole generation of girls” (as that stupid song so lovingly put it). She’s not perfect and she’s not supposed to be. Scott represents those guys in geek/alternative/underground spaces who think they can do no wrong because they aren’t “popular”, but can’t see that they themselves are usually the problem. Like I wish more people could see that you’re not supposed to want to be the characters of SP, but since the main story line is an average white guy and a beautiful girl getting together I can’t say I’m surprised. I’m glad more people are realizing this though, and with the anime coming out it’ll be cool to hopefully see this point more realized than a 2 hour movie could do
I'm hoping the animated version coming out soon better follows the comics. Each character is flawed and goes through some growth, and theres no room for that in the film.
@@GameChanger-xi4iy theyre not saying thats the problem. Theyre pointing out how ramona is the one being blamed for being flawed in that typical "nerd film relationship" of pretty girl with average guy. When scott is equally flawed and causing a lot of situations to get messed up. You just dont see it in the film as its too short to show true growth of characters or investigate their flaws deeper.
As a young girl I had always hated being idealized by boys my age believing I was a manic pixie dream girl, even though I didn't knew the term at the time. I hated the fact that just because I liked stuff "others girls didn't like", I was categorized as quirky, when in reality, all girls my age liked the same things I liked in someway, they just weren't asked if they did so, because they dressed "like every other girl", or they were embarrassed to talk about their interests in fear they would be made fun of. In my first teenage years I had always thought to myself (and sometimes told boys) "I'm not different, I'm like every "other" girl, you just didn't take the time or made the effort to know them better". Also the fact that I'm neurodivergent takes an important role in all of this. We are seen as a concept, rather than humans. In my personal experience, that's why it's so difficult for me to have friends of the opposite gender, I had always found myself falling in this category, and it was so frustrating, because I never felt our "friendship" to be more than my personality and traumas being romanticized by them, and later on them wanting to date me. I was "different", but I never "knew" enough, it's common knowledge that if a girl likes something she has to know enough to be considered a fan, but if she knows too much she's a crazy fangirl who's obssessed. In the other hand. I had always found myself weirded out by "pick me girls" because I had received that kind of attention by men, and, it was not cool or nice at all. It's not nice always being belittled because of your interests and passions, and at the same time glorified in some kind of way. Like you said, it felt like a performance. I had to be perfect in the art to be imperfect, and it was never enough, so now, at 18 years old, I have found myself at peace, not caring if I knew enough or too much about my own interests, because they're mine, my own interests. I'm comfortable with who I am now. And I think that's the most important thing.
I married a “manic pixie dream girl”. In reality she was a hip poet that loved Mazzy star, Peter Gabriel , tu pac, had a photographer eye, has a short platinum bob cut, and loves to dress in lace. She loves me for being a mature “bad boy” and accepts her for being her and not fetishizing her. I guess we were both “archetypes” that found and fell in love with the human in the concepts.
I had the same experience when I had a coloured bob and worked as a grocery cashier, with one major difference: the men almost never actually said "Ramona Flowers". What they said was "You look like the girl from Scott Pilgrim" -_-
I would have also said "the girl from Scott Pilgrim" because if you say her name to me, I know who she is, but if you ask me to name her, I can't. lol I've seen the movie once when it came out, I'm not a Scott Pilgrim connoisseur.
I think every girl that has dealt with depression has had a manic pixie dreamgirl era. For me, it's a dissociation characteristic of wanting to be saved. For me, it's a phase. I think this is why it's valid especially for teens who are figuring themselves out. We eventually grow from it but it's nice to see a representation of what it's like to dissociate but at the same time be so alluring to people who see you in this time. I say this from the point of view of the manic pixie herself because I've been her.
as a teen girl who’s been going through a rough time lately , i have definitely found myself leaning into the manic pixie dream girl trope a bit too much , to the point where i’m losing who i actually am & becoming a shell of a person . it’s both comforting and terrifying , as it’s basically a persona that i can hide my real personality behind while enjoying the benefits of the trope ( for example sexual attention - though the dynamic is a bit different since i am queer ) , but i can feel myself slipping & doing reckless things or things i wouldn’t do normally just to live up to people’s growing expectations of me .
@@nicole-rb4iw I understand that and I've been you. I hope you make smart decisions even with these urges. Self-awareness is the first step and I think surrounding yourself with those who won't take advantage of you in this state is also really important. Always be safe and don't do things that will have a lasting effect. - Just an advice from someone who has been there and now more in control of my mind. It will get better and you will get better at handling emotions. Just always be smart even if you feel manic.
@@pennydls5073 thank u , thankfully i have rly great friends so i don't feel taken advantage of for the most part :+) trying to not do anything too stupid atm . hope i get out of this myself ahah
I connect to Manic Pixie Dream Girls as a neuro-divergent person with "elcectic" interests and habits but I'm also a queer asexual! I noticed that a lot of femme-characters who are intentionally written to be neurodivergent could've fallen into the MPDG trope if they weren't also queer or single (like Lily from Sex Education). I also noticed that neurodivergent coded women are often the Manic Pixie Dream Girl types while neurodivergent coded men are often the snarky blunt cynical types. I feel like there's some underlying misogyny with how neurodivergence is typecasted by gender in media that still leans into gender stereotypes and how either way, the woman still has to look after the man.
Same here, I only saw myself in these characters. it's sad cause I feel theres a lot of hostility/fetishism directed towards these kinds of characters and women today, people are so often wrongly labelled "nlogs" and try hard as if theyre playing characters, told to shed their weird mask- as if it is a mask, but some of us are stuck this way for better or for worse. And even if it is an act, i mean what's wrong with that? Men go through phases but are not at all scrutinised to the extent that women are. The way I see it if girlhood is a performance then both women and men are the critics. It's a tough being a girl today
@@tcrijwanachoudhury exactly but then women who are "normal" get called basic so like, what can we be??? Speaking as someone who did have NLOG mentality in my early teens, my gender-nonconformity and special interests wasn't actually a facade. I think most girls who go through that phase aren't actually being inauthentic, it's just that we were made to feel like it was us against the world and we took it out on femininity. It's obviously still problematic but it's annoying how people came to this conclusion that it was all for male approval when most of us were literally just queer and/or neurodivergent. Like it's literally just sexism and I feel like we should be interrogating the men more if they really are eyeing girls for being sexist and "different". 🙃
Im not suggesting that if you were inspired by Manic Pixie Dream Girl characters you are inherently performing for a male gaze. I am discussing my own personal experience with the Manic Pixie Dream Girls trope and the experiences of many women/femmes that I have spoken to who have grown up being influenced by this trope and the way in which our experiences have been influenced by the male gaze. If you don’t relate to the experience that is completely fine haha
@@FinalGirlStudios oh yeah, I wasn't trying to imply that you were. I was just sharing my own observations I made as a queer person where that trope does tend to exist in proximity to heterosexuality :p
@@sapphic.flowerwow, I relate to you like _a lot_ . I think I was also like this, but I never really found the write words. I always described my teen self as almost "jagged" because I knew I was different from the girls and people around me and I felt a lot of resentment towards femininity because I didnt feel it included me. I don't know if I would say that this is an NLOG- as that's a category of "pick me girls" and you and me sis, we were not trying to be picked lol and if we were then that wasnt the incentive, it's so hard trying to be like others when you're just not. This is really beautifully put though and shows that things arent always the way they seem and that sometimes these categories can restrict the discourse around girlhood and how diverse it is.
i really hate the manic pixie dream girl trope bc it doesn't usually show any of the actual real sides of being manic - mania is extremely dangerous. it puts people in the hospital, and actually physically deteriorates your health, specifically gray matter in the brain. it's not a fun quirky cool little experience. often, the flip side of mania, once it stops (and it does, mania can't happen all day every day for people and if it does, that is very very bad) people usually go into a similarly long depressive episode, which is also extremely dangerous and can cause people to self harm, or even end their own lives. mania isn't cute. it is a mental illness that causes people to experience actual psychosis, and is very very dangerous.
The best treatment of this is 'Ruby Sparks', written and the lead acted by Zoe Kazan. It’s Pygmalion crossed with the MPDG. Co-directed by a woman as well. It’s fantastic in showing all the stages of the male fantasy curdling, the woman being slowly shrunk by his expectations and dehumanization, and her showing and vocalizing how this feels and rebelling. Paul Dano plays the bitter anger you describe to perfect sinister effect. Highly recommend!
This made me realize that the boy I was friends with as kids who would not stop crushing on me, maybe saw me as his manic pixie dream girl. He very much was a stale white wonderbread boy. But I honestly felt like I couldn't escape him as I couldn't escape my home life. I wasn't a manic pixie dream girl, I was just mentally ill.
@mrskyler44 yeah ik the point I was making was that he was obsessed with me and it wasn't okay, he wasn't even a friend really he just was stubborn and couldn't stop objectifying me and clinging to me. It drove me to do some dumb things to annoy him away and honestly good on him for finally leaving, I also dunno how I could've pushed him away any harder. He wasn't nice to me he did nice things in hope of things I didn't want to do. He wasn't a good person let alone friend. I only returned the favor of behavior to push him away since telling him was not something I was able to do properly, being a child and mentally unstable without proper support. I'm an adult now and know better now both on setting boundaries, not even befriending jerks in the first place, and dealing with my own mental stuff. I also have a boyfriend now and try my best with him despite my mental health. I'm in full support of people with unsound mental health getting love, what that dude wanted wasn't love really. It was obsessive and unhealthy.
@ericbuzard349 We weren't friends. He was a creep and I didn't know how to get rid of him. He was obsessive, controlling, and only was nice when he thought he could get something. I know better now how to properly get rid of people like that and what signs to look for so I never "befriend" them in the first place. We were kids.
I love your channel. Cinema critique so rarely captures the nuance that yours does, being the feminine / neurodivergent, and I seriously appreciate your eloquence and ability to articulate ideas and feelings I’ve thought and felt but never could express quite right. Thank you!
I love the term you coined, Final Girl Studios, “stale white wonderbread boy” 😆 This was a really well analysis and take. I’m glad you pointed out “clementine” not fitting the mold of the “manic pixie dream girl” and that really it was more that Joel viewed her as such. I’m always seeing her dragged in the conversation or in videos about this topic, when she had admitted in the film that she wasn’t. I also can relate to you with being interested in the manic pixie dream girl and wanting to know more about *her* backstory rather than perceived through the lens of a bland, male main character: “a shell of the human she is.”
I recently watched ‚Watching the Detectives‘ from 2007 with Lucy Liu playing the character Violet. In the first few minutes of her appearance, Violet felt so fresh and free in a patriarchal life. Leading her life truly beyond the norms, which ultimately felt encouraging. Throughout the plot though, she is being depicted driving her love interest insane. By not aligning to his life and job and idea of relationship. Same old, same old.
soo good, and its something i realized after leaving my 4 year + toxic relationship a year ago. i think i would have been considered this "manic pixie dream girl " title to my ex, but in reality i was just as broken as my ex was when i met him and the drug of love intoxicated us and blinded us both. Even being back in the dating scene afer a year ive realized that there are parts of me that seem performative for men, that stem from the manic pixie dream girl idgaf energy to just be yourself. in reality, i think that's why i always like manic pixie dream girl characters because no matter what they were very honest to who they are. when you are lost and you are damaged , burtally honest, and unprohibited human people are magnetic. they often show us what we're lacking and thats what this whole trope is about. you know? now im intrigued to watch a movie about the same dynamic but with teh genders reversed. its hard ot imagine the same situation where a man wouldn't take advantage for the fact a girl is preceiving him in such a dreamy, romantic , inspiring way
I definitely latched onto anything with depictions of girls resembling this trope as a teen. But I always saw myself in the boys and wished I could be more like the girls. I always felt so stiff and boring and restrained, I wanted to be creative and express myself and stop being so careful all the time. In some ways I used these films (and my whole time on Tumblr, let's be real) as a way for me to learn how to love all of the parts of myself
Omg same! It's so nice knowing that I'm not alone 😅 i admired characters like them so much because I felt that I was unremarkable yet they were so cool, just existing and being themselves while also being admired for being themselves and given the freedom and space to do that, I didn't feel like I was allowed to be like that, that it's wrong if I do it and it's only suited to a certain type of girl, now I'm trying my best to live authentically within my neurospicyness and openly welcoming who I am. Getting past the fear of being perceived and actually full on embracing my self and not betraying myself isn't exactly easy to do on some days but when I come through it's so worth it
20:18 this part is so true "many of us gravitated to the manic pixie dream girl because it's a consumable fix for our undiagnosed neurodivergence and quirks" and it makes me sad, because every bit of femininity was made performative and made me feel like everything about me is not real
Penny Lane is my ULTIMATE Manic Pixie Dream Girl..I loved her character so much for the longest 😭 Oh my gosh I LOVED their dynamic in 10 things I hate about you, I honestly loved the whole movie, every character felt fully developed and real
I love this take! The character trope of the manic pixie dream girl always annoyed and frustrated me because men would project/force those expectations onto me in real life. Even though I was drawn to these characters, it was the way my ex’s expected me to be her, and perceived me as her due to my bubbly personality IRL. This leads me to conclude a guy doesn’t have to be white to be a stale bread boy. This includes in media, as a lot of stale breads actually exist in anime. In fact, they are super common in some genres like isekai, general fantasy/ sci-fi and harem. The stale bread boy also exists in anime for the audience to project themselves onto. I think the real issue is the stale breads/ perception of stale breads and the narrative being focused on bland and boring characters. No writer should aim to write a stale bread. All characters deserve development, depth and care.
There's a really great movie called Mad Love starring Drew Barrymore in all her 90s glory as a textbook Manic Pixie Dream Girl who has some serious underlying mental health issues, similar to Betty Blue. I used to rent it on VHS all the time as an undiagnosed Neurodivergent blue-haired teen, it's really an underrated gem of a film 🌈💙✨️
I was just going to make the same comment. I remember when the movie came out so many girls at school would romanticize being flawed, damaged and carefree just like the character. Drew Barrymore was excellent in that roll.
I still think Almost Famous deserves a whole movie devoted to *her*. And really, the Groupie itself. There's something so truly effervescent about the flower child, sexually free, quirky and whimsical beauty who wanted to be close to the world of music... Feel it in her bones, love it with all her heart, and treasure the artists who make her feel alive. How much I relate, as a 'I'm with the band' girl myself. How much I LOVE hearing Pamela Des Barres bubble on about her years, how much she loved *herself*. Rather than a movie about a journalist and a band... Where's the movie about the groupie girl?
I wish people didn’t hate manic pixie dream girls haha. Cause I feel like I definitely vibe with them being fun and cute and just a vibrant character. I feel sometimes I’m the description. Or just relate to these pixie girls so much. Also just letting you know, you are so pretty and ver ethereal looking!
Great analysis! I especially appreciate that you put context around Lolita and Nabakov's intentions. So many people think that Lolita condones pedophilia, but the book reveals that Humbert is a monster who is writing his own narrative.
interesting. I grew up with kirsten dunst movies, and i must admit that this personality of " be whatever for the guy" and just exactly what the manic pixie dream girl ting is... it had an effect on me growing up. i am 32 now. and it was only when i was 26 i started realizing it had had this effect. it changed how i viewed me as a woman in relation to a man. to not have real needs. to only be paper thin. underneath the surface, just be more surface - cause it's all he wants. he doesn't want you if you are difficult and complex. be a s3xy riddle. haha just be a pretty, weird, blank space for him to project anything onto. i don't know man... this trope just had an effect on me for a long while. very very true how girlhood is performance art. stale white wonder bread boy is a PERFECT sentence 😄😄
Brilliant 👏 I sometimes feel that men are often portrayed as real & solid.....while women are portrayed as the light that reveals them in some essential way :)
YES. I call the term "manic pixie Dream Girl-ING". The GIRL herself is not the problem. Having this false dehumanizing lens places ON her, by Men, is the issue.
I have the adhd and the autism i am on the list for diagnosis now at the age of 40. Growing up manic pixie dream girls, and odd cult classics where the trope was expanded were the characters i related to the most always. I have given up on relationships and dating because too many times I have become a therapist instead of a girlfriend, or been dumped, cheated on and have even experienced abuse when I can't complete their lives and live up to their expectations because shocker I am a real human. The manic pixie dream girl traits have a balance... sure I can run around being cooky and fun and enjoy jumping in puddles and predicting what i might think up or say next is difficult... but I can also have crippling anxiety and be unable to leave the house, or if I make it to that huge event we've been looking forward to I may have to leave because I have a massive panic attack or make us late because my brain cannot compute how time works. Sure some times I will be full of that unstoppable energy but at others I will need everyone (including that partner that thinks I will complete them) to go away and spend time exhausted and alone in a room recovering or napping, or I will feel ill because I forgot to eat or drink water. The list goes on and on. I don't think finding someone who sees, accepts and respects all of me as a complete human is impossible, I just can't be bothered sorting through the minefield and putting my energy into getting to know people to try and find it.
This hits the spot! I've seen a lot of comments of girls who are neurodivergent and can't switch off their quirks and interests "at demand". I, too, was somewhat of a MPDG (being a queer, person of color in a white dominant country with hyperfixation on niche interesses). Some people tried to date me just wanted a quirky, fun and exotic girlfriend to "add some spark" to their boring lives. The thing is, they could break off the relationship when tired or not wanting to deal with my culture, the constant medical visits, and societal judgements. I couldn't change my skin color nor shake off the alienation nor the passive racism. I couldn't just correct my brain lmao. I wish there are more movies about POC girls being passionate about stuff and is the main character of her own life. Not romanticized by some average dude whose privilege allows him to make these movies in the first place.
Wow. Just wow. I'm kind of at a loss for words after watching this. I feel so seen and understood. You put this all in such a perfect perspective for me. As someone who's been called "manic pixie dream girl" more than once in my life, and felt put on that dreaded pedestal, and also recited Clementine's speech multiple times, thank you. This was an amazing watch.
I say the manic pixie dream girl and stale white wonder bread boy are narrative counterparts and should be examined in conjunction. . Brilliant video! 🤍🩵
This video is awesome! Recently I was feeling like my boyfriend is treating me like a "manic pixie dream girl", and this video magically appeared... It's not because you "got the smart, quirky girl" that now I have to solve all of his problems and then be sidelined! This helped me to better elaborate my thoughts so I can express them in a better way when I inevitably talk about this... We should have better girl representation on TV!
that line by clementine has always been my favorite. i find men in my life have often viewed me as their manic pixie dream girl but i’m just clementine being perceived incorrectly .
The “manic pixie dreamgirl” often does find the “manic pixie dream boy” - the problem with those movies is that artsy interesting creative boys are always toxic in movies ( and usually in real life ) which shifts the entire movie. Because a manic pixie dreamgirl isnt a bad person, theyre quirky. The manic pixie dream boy that is “quirky” in an attractive way is always a womanizer or the best that a boy can be of that
I honestly wouldn’t call Sam from Perks of Being Wallflower a manic pixie dream girl, I think at first she is supposed to seem that way, but then she actually gets fleshed out. She has her own life, her own issues and interests, and her own goals and ambitions aside from Charlie. Also, while Charlie’s life is improved by knowing her, she doesn’t single handedly fix his life and in fact he actually has to get real mental health treatment before he can get better. So I don’t think their dynamic actually falls under a White Bread Wonder Boy and Manic Pixie Dream Girl. Also if I’m going to be honest calling Charlie a Stale White Wonderbread boy is also wrong in my opinion…yeah he’s kind of “boring” but that’s because he’s not able to be himself bc of true childhood trauma stemming from abuse, which it’s revealed Sam also went through. Unlike a lot of the other male characters you included here, he doesn’t have milquetoast white man issues, he has legit mental health issues that a lot of ppl, man or woman, can relate to, but I would not say he is a blank canvas at all. So while I agree with every other example you included I don’t agree with Perks because both characters are fleshed out and deep and they both help each other, it’s not a one way street. But to each their own. Also sorry if I’m a little passionate about this, since I do love your videos, it’s just that the book and movie mean a lot to me as a kid who also went through SA, and it means a lot to a lot of ppl.
Ugh thank you so much for creating this! You're able to articulate everything I rant to my friends about whenever this subject comes up +more. I feel like when the general public sensationalizes and/or shames this trope (and misuses the term to refer to real-life people), THEY are embodying the stale white men! You were so right about womanhood as a performance - the curse of womanhood is that MPDGs ARE real, in the sense that there will ALWAYS be a Manic Pixie Dream Girl created & perceived through the eyes of a real-life Stale White Bread. That being said, I'd like to imagine that we, the viewers of these movies, are the Stale White Bread in a way. I know I was, when I first watched so many of these movies as a teen. The MPDGs inspired me - for all the same reasons you shared, as a girl who felt "different" - but like their White Breads, MY eyes were opened that life could be lived outside of society's norms and standards that so repressed me. I was able to see myself in older adult characters who had unique & creative interests, acted liberated, and didn't (always) center men in their very full lives. In that sense, I don't personally think it's embarrassing at all to try to embody MPDGs in your own life, especially during the formative years. Yes, it IS embarrassing to act inauthentically for the sake of male approval - but we are all REAL LIFE PEOPLE, NOT MOVIE CHARACTERS. If you thought Clementine's potato projects were cool, you have every reason to pick up a hobby like that for yourself! As human beings, we will always have that depth we so craved to see revealed in those iconic MPDGs. So I like to see those characters as catalysts for viewers' self-actualization and living in their truths. This is the video essay to end all MPDG video essays. I hope we can move forward in film, with better written women :) peace and love!
Every time I see this trope it makes me think of my teenage self. It felt to me like everyone of my many friends and teachers etc. viewed me like this. it was so surface and superficial but inside i was screaming. I got to a point when i left home and cut all my friends off because they didn't really know who I was and I didn't know how to share it more. I thought everyone must feel the despair I felt and for some reason they could cope and I couldn't. i was suicidal when a doctor finally diagnosed me with severe clinical depression. I still look at those characters and and confused by them because I don't think we are being shown their real self at all. The part of the trope that never made much sense to me is why she is interested in the stale white wonder bread boy. I think it comes down to looking for a deep connection and not knowing how to achieve it.
She is the inspiration to the male character, so they go from “boring” or bored with their lives, to being exhilarated and enthusiastic for living itself. It’s not so much about the girl you are right, it’s about what she can do for someone who enters her life.
I love this video essay so much. Ever since I heard about the trope of 'Pixie dream girls' it bothered me the amount of criticism these characters received for being fake or unrealistic. But as you had mentioned, a lot of these characters are coded representations of autistic women who are unrepresented in media. There is nothing wrong with eccentric and impulsive women with niche interests. As an autistic guy it bothers when people argue that this style of person is unrealistic or is a less legitimate mode of being. The problem is how they are treated by these stories and writers, particularly with how they are taken advantage of by men. Which is why I love you exploration of the 'stale white wonder bread boy'. Part of how I have understood these characters is that part of the autistic coding of the Dream Girl is her isolation and lack of companionship which affects all autistic people. And I think this lack of companionship is what draws the Dream Girl toward the Wonder bread Boy, she is wanting a friend, but the Wonder bread Boy places a cost on the relationship requiring it to be a romantic/sexual relationship. An interesting exploration of this space was done in Mozart & the Whale (2005). The film is explicitly about autistic people, but the character of Izzy fulfils the characteristics of a Pixie Dream Girl. In that film there is a scene where she discusses boundaries with the prospective boyfriend and describes how she had been taken advantage of in the past in ways that parallel the plot of a Pixie Dream Girl film. It would be cool if films explored these spaces a bit more and explore autistic women as complete fleshed out people, there is a lot to explore in this space, like the degree of Masking is used and the struggle to identify one's authentic self.
In Titanic, Is Jack Rose’s manic pixie dream guy? How come no one ever references Jennifer Aniston’s character in Along Came Polly as MPDG? I would argue that Holly Golightly in Breakfast at Tiffany’s is not a MPDG. She is the main character of the story and her faults are more than evident, she is not romanticized in any way, she even tells Paul that people don’t belong to people.
Yes, Jack is a manic pixie dream guy! There is also a Titanic theory that Rose had a psychotic break due to being forced to marry Cal, which resulted in her suicide attempt. Jack never actually existed. Rose experiences further trauma during the ship wreck and hallucinates the death of her lover that never was. I suggest looking it up, it’s such a fascinating theory. Personally I choose not to believe it, as Rose and Jack were my favourite movie couple as a kid.
For Holly, she wouldn't even have been that if it stuck closer to the book. They were just two people who impacted each other, but Holly could not be owned by anyone. And Paul didn't really want to be with her or have her, I think he really wanted to be her. He couldn't live life the way he wanted, she could. And yeah, it's her story.
@@Purplenpinkk It's only like a 100 pages so it's a very short and fun read! Yeah, the undertone is far more that he's gay. I genuinely like both for different reasons. It's not a very exact adaption, but I think it's a fun interpretation especially within the constraints of the time.
Wow, thank you for this video, I think you did a very good job of going even further into dept of this very much dusscussed story trope. You've hit every aspect I could think of spot on. Looking back on my life i think I've always been a perfect canvas for this trope. I wish I knew earlier about this social roles we as a society build up. I can understand that I and other girls and women liked to play along with it. Living with depression and a chronic feeling of oddness and beeing inappropiate it first seems nice to see a relatable character beeing admired. But looking back on a row of relationships built on dreams, looking back on a life where my suffering has been ignored and romantiziced and my needs where hardly ever met I can just sit here virtually high fiveing you on every critizism you made here. When I reached my 30s, I slowly realized what was going on, but I found it hard to escape this dynamics. The manic pixie dream girl didn't dissapear it slowly turned into a mary poppins character. I've been called a lovely fairy, my female friends loved to turn me into a dream of an superhero friend that can also look out for their kids and the age of the men approaching me raised to 60 and above. I don't want to see this nightmare being turning into an poisoned dream to make women and men stick to this shitty dynamics. I mean you brought up a few very good examples on how to realisticly address the struggles behind those quirky facades. I'd also love to see more examples of real men and woman, real relationship and the work, commitment and compassion necessary to make things work, especially if there are mental health problems in the way. A big hug to you and all the fellow humans, this video spoke to
Wow. When you got to the part where you talk about making neurodivergence palatable and consumable… wow. Powerful insight. This was really really well done. Thank you so much for your hard work.
I love your content and had never considered what you might look like and was wonderfully surprised to see the Druscilla from Buffy aesthetic. Great video as always and love to see a fellow goth lady (/femme) out in the world ❤
As a manic pixie dreamgirl esque girl myself you perfectly captured why this trope makes me so angry! Because no! I don't want to end up with the stale white wonderbread boy!
Omg thank you so much - I love Betty Blue!! I saw it years ago and couldn't remember the name or any way of finding it. Thank you so much for finding it for me! I totally agree btw, it's about relationships and how they grow thru obstacles, one of which is destroying the idealization of the other person, and it felt pretty balanced between the partners in detail and development in a way MPDG tropes aren't.
Yours is the first video critique I've seen to mention Gregg Araki, and it was great to see him getting the spotlight he deserves. This is a great vid overall, thanks for taking the time to make it!
I'm on the autism spectrum and grew up with mental illness that made it hard for me to socialize and feel normal. That's why I never understood the hype over being "quirky" and "weird" and how that suddenly became cool. If anything, it's debilitating and quite isolating. I have a friend who has romantic feelings for me who is very much like the male archetype you described, and he views me as his manic pixie dream girl. It makes me very uncomfortable because he visibly has negative reactions whenever I deviate from his perception of what a MPDG is in his head. It's like I'm not even a person. While it can be flattering to be put on a pedestal, it's also anxiety inducing because it feels like walking on a tight rope of their expectations. I don't wish to be and for my issues to be romanticized. The closest I got to him being real was when he acted cold towards me after I came back from a mental breakdown hiatus where I wasn't talking to him or anybody. My brain needed a break from everyone and everything. Mind you, I know that it's my fault, but I did communicate to him prior to fully steeping in my misery that I needed some time alone. What isn't my fault is managing his romantic expectations of him helping me through my trials, and me building him up to be a man. I lost respect for the situation because he babbled every time I opened up to him and told other people, and because he wasn't interested in helping out of friendship, but rather because he hoped to gain points so I'd fall for him. No thank you, you're 32, grow up already.
Garden State has the most human manic pixie dream girl for me - they give her a full storyline behind her quirkiness (neurodivergency) and does show her shame surrounding being different. In most the movies we miss out on seeing the embarassment and shame of being different. They show the manic pixie dream girl as impenetrable against negative opinions and interactions which is unrealistic. The men I've talked with that greatly dislike manic pixie dream girls see them as manipulative/acting, but the reasoning behind being 'different' isn't for the male gaze, it's just a state of general being.
What's wrong with acting? I recent came across a group of guys on UA-cam complaining that make-up is deceiving. And claimed that women are dishonest for using it. I just find it an artistic and personal expression that is fun and creative.
@user-jz2yd9qj3y Meh I know a guy who has similar views in real life. Let's just say he is nearly in his 40s single and never been in a relationship. I would personally not give notice to what guys like that think they are usually misogynistic. I know this particular guy I know says a female wearing make up is deceiving, that he wants a girl who wears no make up but then makes fun of the way women look if they don't wear makeup. With guys like that you cannot win. They usually want a girl born with a natural filter or something.
In some way, my novel is a sort of subversion of this trope. It’s written like a film log that my male main character is recording, when he eventually meets the female main character. From an outside gaze she would seem like a manic pixie dream girl who helps him be more spontaneous, but she’s got her own hidden struggles and responsibilities outside of the mmc. In the end, it so happens that the male main character ends up supporting her when she reveals her struggles. Even though they both like eachother, they never get together because they realize that for the time being, they need to support eachother as friends rather than lovers. I found the thing you said about perspective interesting, because the format of my novel plays with the idea that you can’t see everything on screen at once, which reflects how at first the mmc saw the fmc through his own gaze, and later when she opens up to him he sees her beyond this one-dimensional camera view.
This is an amazing video essay. Thank you. You’ve articulated so many of my half-formed thoughts about the manic pixi dream girl and why I feel both anger and love when I think of these characters
Several of the guys who have liked me in the past because I was their "Manic Pixie Dream Girl". I was loud and out there and "different". None of them actually knew me. They only knew that part of me. It wasn't until recently why I had such a problem with why they liked me. Now I've realized why.
this entire video is so real. I'm a (mildy) feminine trans guy and literally just having short hair and being autistic I get seen as a Manic pixie dream girl so very often. From getting hit on at 15 by some senior guy in sports because i wore colorful outfits to my most recent romantic encounter being with a guy that has been both extremely cruel to me and also avidly admiring me from a distance. Simply because he doesn't like me as a full person, just as something fun and 'different'.
You are literally me, my dude (though I’m androgynous, not a femboy). So many people assume that I’m going to save them. When in reality, I’m just a weird dude who happens to look like an androgynous girl.
I'd say the girl from 500 days of summer also isn't an actual manic pixie dream girl as the story blatantly contrasts the male's idea of her with the reality and it shows how she exists outside of him and doesn't end up with him (iirc). Also Before Sunset is a great movie where both characters are quirky and well developed, it felt like both are manic pixie-ish but also had actual chemistry beyond that usual dynamics.
1) early 2000s Orlando Bloom is brioche and not stale wonder bread (especially in Parâtes of the Carribean). 2. Zach Braff on the other hand is essentially the crap bread you use to make croutons with
Also manic in the Scrubs performance, sort of switches roles to a deadened over medicated person in Garden State. Knowing many.over medicated people, I am glad to see them in the spotlight, even if part of the story line is that he had stunted growth because of his father and his diagnosis. Thinking that his short romance will change everything is a mistake - the biggest step he makes is in the appointment with the neurologist. Some of the people I know actually would be sent back to asylums if they don't take their meds.
Thank you for this video!! After your analises I can see this portrait also resonates with the beauty and beast tale, the idea women shouldn't judge by appearance, that the noble thing to do is "see the heart of a beast that imprison you", that is that a what a good "person" (but it only women that we see doing so) SHOULD do or something... is the eternal Revenge of the Nerds, man can be to bland, monsters, misogynistic, but they get the girl/women -> they WANT, and they serve then, save them, never judge then, but the most problematic I would say is: Expect nothing in return! I believe that is the biggest trap we were taught (mostly neglect people will be the ones to fell on it). We were taught to give, to be hot, to be interesting, to love unconditionally, while even it is clear in this scenario, the "love" we will receive will be very conditional, because if it wasn't we should need to check so many boxes.
“to be loved is to be consumed”. damn. that line really did something to me lmao i guess i always fear that i’ll never be close to anyone if im not digestible enough for them. gonna go contemplate now
Oh my god I love you 😭😭😭 I relate to mpdg’s so much and I’m always hearing how “unrealistic” and “manufactured” these characters are; but I always thought (as an autistic gal mind you) that they were really good representations of me and myself despite whatever the plain joe male main characters thought of them 🥺😔 also your videos are just cool and I’ve been watching daises and vahwow {:
Years ago, I had a heated argument with a guy who was adamant about defending the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope. It started when he said something like, "Where’s MY Ramona Flowers?" As a neurodivergent female, I could sense that films featuring MPDGs were often using autistic traits to idealize their characters. I replied, "Just find someone with autism, but don’t expect them to look like a movie star." He was stunned by my response and retorted, "Nobody wants a mentally ill girl." I told him the trope was simply a male fantasy, and that it was ableist to claim no one would want a partner on the spectrum. Later that day, he posted on social media, implying I was a delusional feminist who saw problems in everything, including this trope. The post gained attention from strangers who agreed with his view. I felt humiliated and didn’t speak out on the topic for years-until others began to understand it too. This video serves as a form of validation for me.
Perfect aspect of turning fantasies into narratives take me always to the world of Phantom Thread or Like Crazy... You grow infatuated with what you percieved as different and unique as with Alma and Raynolds mutually, then becoming sick of each other give you a perfect view of stepping into the shoes of reality and dealing with every aspect of humanity of the other person would shake you and at the end to be "in love" still you choose to put shit in the middle and how that "vulnerability" would take you to that "comfort" zone to keep up with the endless circle of "waking up" and then being numb to it again.
Generally enjoy your video essays and find them incisive and this one is no exception. Appreciate that you tend to recognize gender as a social construct that tends to inform the camera and audiences' gazes, but sometimes get glimpses of an essentialism that accompanies this construct that I find myself wishing you would address more directly (your essay on *Valerie and Her Week of Wonders* moves in this direction from what I have seen of your collection). You are astute in asking why the manic pixie dream girl (who is always interesting even when she fails to be a character with a fully developed character) is interested in the stale white wonder bread boy to begin with. These films, most especially *Scott Pilgrim...*, tend to answer this question with: mpd girl has been screwed over by so many seemingly handsome/interesting love interests (who turn out to be shallow aggressive predators in one way or another) that swwb boy gains some appeal for her. While this scenario falls into the trope of the mpd girl and the plot that satisfies the wish fulfillments of the swwb boy and the frequently male writer who constructs him, I am curious if these tropes and plots have as much to do with human maturity as they do with gender? All of these plots (even the late blooming ones such as *Eternal Sunshine...*) are coming of age plots in which our protagonists and occasionally their love interests (if they are more developed characters like Clementine) tend to learn the human "trap" of sorts of projecting our own desires on to other people, which I wouldn't be inclined to gender. Gender affects the nature of these projections, perhaps, but recognizing this youthful tendency and growing past it to recognize the full humanity of our fellow subjects (in our subjectivity and agency) seems part of the lesson of the art that helps us (hopefully and in theory) to reach maturity and come of age. Perhaps the majority of this form of art is so gender coded that the lesson is lost and inflicts damage on its audiences. That is a very valid perspective, but I am curious if it is too cynical? Regardless, strong and thoughtful close reads and conclusions that open up (imo) an important conversation overall. Thanks for your work!
I feel like "perks of being a wallflower" is a more nuanced example. Like Charlie isnt just a stale self insert. He's an s/a victim trying to find himself again. And yes in a way Sam is a manic pixie, we do know things about her and id argue all the characters outside if Charlie are just there to help his journey of self discovery and healing
That seems to be a common consensus with Charlie! I only used footage of him bc Sam is so often in MPDG lists but it’s honestly far too long since I’ve seen the film in order to say if he is actually a SWWB, it seems as though he isn’t though!
i feel like that's different and forgiveable though. because most often, stories are told from the perspective of one character only, and all the supporting characters are more narrative designs to support the main character's journey. and in that particular instance, because charlie is trying to deal with and process his trauma, i can forgive the rest of the story and it's characters revolving around him, because it's HIS story of healing, you know?
Thank you for this. I think much of the discourse around the trope seems to dismiss that there is any value to having this character archetype. But you have hit the nail on the head that the problem is not the archetype, but rather the way the archetype is explored. While the concept of a manic pixie dream girl is really a fantasy and does not exist outside of the imagination of lonely men, aspects of this archetype do, and certainly are embodied by real women and are still attractive. But in real life, one cannot ignore that these traits inevitably come with others that do not fit the archetype and should equally be accepted if one truly loves this person. I say this as having been in love with several women that have these quirks and working out for myself what i could and could not accept in a partner that fall outside of the attractive qualities. That said, I ultimately married someone who still maintains some of these whimsical qualities, which i appreciate dearly, while accepting the many other traits that make her a serious and dependable partner. In conclusion, I would just like to say that overly harsh dismissal of the trope, is also dismissive that the milquetoast boy should have any place in the world. We do exist and may need the coaxing of muses to inspire us to be interesting and complete men worthy of the love and attention of the women we want to attract.
In addition to what I have said above, i do understand that this trope has also lead to problematic male thinking aka the sigma males who feel unfulfilled and left out because they feel like they are ignored but entitled to the women of their dreams. And while I can partially attribute blame of this problem to idol culture and bad examples of this trope being used in fiction (especially in anime leaning heavily on harem and waifu tropes), i think it is up to every individual to sift through works of fiction and find the nuggets that can be applied to the real world. And hey, if you get it wrong, at least you tried and hopefully learned something you can use to have a more successful go at it next time around.
I feel like the manic pixie dream girl is what falling in love looks like to young straight men. It can feel dangerous, especially if we are getting to important ages, like our late twenties, when we are supposed to meet certain goals (like meeting the woman we will end up marrying.) When we meet her all that we know is that she is attractive to us physically. Lust like we see on the screen. Of course, this makes sense because we haven't met her yet. We may see her in the classroom, or across the room at a social even. We may try to catch her eye, or get her attention, find a reason to talk to her. We will try to read her signals and see if she gives us any nonverbal invitations to ask her to dinner or for a drink, with a friend or alone. At this point we start to learn a bit about her. She is exotic, and maybe if she is attracted to us too, she may be acting quirky because that is quite literally what attraction is: the brain getting high. It is like a self perpetuating cycle, with the attraction between two people making them take actions that will make them even more attractive to each other. If our time spent with her on our dates are successful, then we enter the relationship phase and start to become an exclusive couple. For most couples this is when sex starts, which only reinforces how exotic she seems. We are slightly obsessed with her, and often can't wait to get out of class, or our job, to see her. Hopefully it is the same for her. The weeks and the months pass with significant time spent together. Then we start to see her flaws. She has a temper. She is always running late. She is always criticizing us, over seemingly every single thing we do. She expects us to do more for her, if not monetarily, then in our behaviors. She needs more commitment. Suddenly she doesn't take as much stock in our opinion. Her professional life becomes separate from her life with us and she often defends her job viciously. She may start spending more time with her friends, as our novelty wears off. A lot of the quirks we had that she used to love now turn her off. We are having less sex, and we may even take this personally, rather than seeing it as a natural biological phenomenon. At this point, we might pull away. We're afraid that if she can change this much, maybe she could stop loving us all together and then what do we have? We would be back at square one. So we withdraw. We spend less time with her, we may snap at her, which will only make her more reticent to spend time with us. She may withdraw sex as a way to protect her self esteem and as a way to get us to behave, but if we are immature we will only pull away more seeing her removal of this vital need of ours as an affront to our person, rather than a defense of her own. There may be ugly fights. Ugly words are said, and feelings are hurt. And that is our Hollywood story. What Hollywood doesn't show, however is for mature couples there is light at the end of the tunnel. We learn that she never actually left us, she just needed space to rediscover other sides to herself. She needed space to be an independent human being, so that she could fully love us. That real love is multi-faceted. Real women are flawed. They make mistakes all of the time. And she needed to have room to make mistakes. Real love can be boring. It lacks the luster and the flair of infatuation. It lacks the constant, hot sex, the flirting, and the mad highs. But what it makes up for this is the emotional depth. Loving someone for their qualities and their flaws. Letting her be who she is and loving her because of it, not in spite of it. The manic pixie dream girl is women through the eyes of a man who hasn't yet lived.
Me being manic pixie dream girl to my exes, finally meeting a great womderbread man that endlessly and has patiently supported me in the ways I need as I sought help for my mental health, we learned how to communicate and I constantly reflect upon myself, and we have been married for 5 years each year getting better ❤ having a partner that truly values and respects you is important, and valuing and respecting them even if they don’t ‘get’ whatever it is you are going through matters. Finding ways to support each other’s unique needs and keeping yourself and the other accountable. I’ve been through some of the rosters times in my life within the last 5 years, but have come out more healed at better for it. We are equal and I am thankful
Harold and Maude...I would argue Maude is the purest form of the mpdg in purpose and character as her quirks aren't the result of anything but actually throwing off norms put upon her by culture and society. Her embrace of life in the face of opposition gives Harold a new perspective because she's more real than the constructed world he wants an escape from. Im 50 and have been with my MPDG for 24 years. We've raised our MPDG daughter as well. It worked because we saw each other as human beings with respect and mutual growth beyond the trappings of the quirks. I always hated the guys in these movies for not assuming the girl could ever "be his". The boys rarely grow and it's frustrating to watch. He can learn from her but she is in no way beholden to him nor responsible for him. Likewise her needs are rarely fulfilled by him. And her needs are a lot easier to meet if he just gets the hell out of his own damned head and sees her as a human.
i def had a mpdg phase. now u gave me a good excuse to watch these films, since most of them have been on my bucket list for years. great vid, ♡ from 🇦🇷.
Men write us shallowly and then accuse us of being shallow because that's how they see us lol. Spot on.
Other way around women only like men when they have aspects they can't change, i.e looks, height, genital size etc.
@Gamechanger So what you are saying is, women are shallow?
@@mathieu-ye3jy😂 Right...he literally just made the original commenter's point. And so concisely, I might add, without realizing it.
@GameChanger-xi4iy no that's what men think
@@GameChanger-xi4iy little guy, talk to a woman, im begging you. once you do you'll realise the bs that the andrew tates of the world push on young boys like you is a lie created to project their own flaws onto women.
"so much of girlhood is performance art"
This is so uncomfortablely true. As we grow into our 'balanced fae real women' selves some of these things do cement others go away. Its trial and error i suppose.
In sociology we’re learning about how gender in itself is a social performance and an art to master, man fuck gender roles
hi - i just fell in love with you.
so beautifully --said-- written.❣
The Margaret Atwood quote fits right in here, right?
amen 🙏@@user9391
don't mean to criticize or be mean but is this like a white people thing? I grew up in a latino community and I can't say I ever met a girl that behaved like a manic pixie dream girl most girls I met in high school and college were just normal people idk.
Removing the men from the equation or sidelining them while focusing on the girls would be so nice to see. The characters themselves are honestly so precious and interesting and the writing does them dirty every time
I think Sucker Punch (2011) would be a good attempt at that.
There are a lot actually, they are not recognized as manic pixie dream girls tho because the whole meaning of the trope is a faulty image of them from the boy's perspective. As soon as we drop a boy from the equation she is not manic and dream for anyone, but herself.
Check another popular comment that also mentions that and some examples
@@Theywerehere While I agree with you, Manic Pixie girls are coded with certain tags: white, quirky, neon-colored hair, bookish, some undiagnosed mental illness, etc that the trope began to leech into unrelated genres and mediums such as cosplay. Zoeey Deschanel is a MPDG in real life even more than in her movies. She is a walking talking manic pixie and it might just be a front and good marketing but she leans into it. She doesn't really need a man to fit the tags. And you are understating the pervasiveness of the male gaze which functions subtly even without a living breathing male character in a movie but via something as innocuous as camera angles and lighting.
@@syedrahman3251 yep, exactly. Zoey Dechanel is a MPDG in OUR eyes. We don't know her as a person.
@@Theywerehere Yes, its the advertisers and agents who lean into it. Not Zoey herself. It's like in the 80s and 90s sex sells and so did cigarettes. But cigarettes cannot advertise on television anymore. Same thing here, feminism means sex no longer sells using misygonistic tropes and skinny Victoria Secret models. So advertisers brain storm and sell us the more accessible manic pixie image who is more down to earth, a compromise? Sex (& cigarettes) sells, as long as it is coded to modern tastes.
Things like the magic pixie dream girl remind us neurodivergent people (include me) how people only like us as a concept, but not as actual people, especially neurodivergent women and girls.
💀 ikr they love the idea of quirky women who's not like other girls but they'd force them to be "normal" irl. I'm not ND but I've had ppl bullying me and complaining about how weird I am bc I've always had difficulties w/ social interaction and they like me most when I just shut up and listen. It also got me thinking if looks have anything to do with it too bc I'm a bit taller than my peers, have a weird voice, and generally move kinda awkwardly. Time and time again I feel like I would've been liked more even with my current personality if I fit the tiny quirky girl mold lol
@@losj3020 RIGHT!!! how they obsess over a character that’s super quirky, but the moment that a neurodivergent person headcanons' them as neurodivergent because they have the symptoms and meet the criteria, they lose it 💀 I have undiagnosed ADHD and till the day, I'm still made fun of by ppl because of how I behave. ADHD doesn't appear the same way in girls and women so I'm constantly masking my symptoms (tho there are some that I cannot mask). Even worse is that my mom doesn't believe me and neither does my big brother (which is crazy because he to has ADHD yet he can’t even realize that his own sister has the same thing)
THIS.
@@blossxmaWell if you’re undiagnosed with ADHD, look I am not a professional expert on psychiatry okay. But I will have to say you probably are undiagnosed with the neuro developmental disorder. Since if your brother has ADHD, then you probably have Type ll of (Attention-Deficit Disorder) than Type l, Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD). The first one is usually detected in young boys from childhood to young ones in adolescence. God adolescence is such a bitch sometimes and teenagers are just so mean & nasty all the time for no reason. They always look at you in a disgusted and negative way. Like wtf is your fucking problem dude? We do not even literally know each. YOU do not even know me okay, and I do not even know you either.
Yet sometimes if someone is on the internet announcing that they are undiagnosed with some neurological disorder. Then I do believe you 99.5% of the time. And why is that because 99.0% of the time these Psychiatrist who are specialized in Psychiatry sometimes will overlook or overlap the symptoms of their patients is why they cannot see to find what is wrong with the patients they have. And why they are not being properly diagnosed with these issues. They are still not getting proper treatment to learn, prevent them from dealing with mental health issues & teaching them how to develop health “Coping Mechanisms”. Instead of using their sticks to help them manage and cope with emotional and mental distress combined with trauma e.g.
Many people are undiagnosed with these conditions. Just to surprise you with this fact. There is a lot of people undiagnosed with ADHD and ADD than you think. The undiagnosed count is even higher than shown on these charts & graphics.
This is why the medical community should not always be looked up to as the “experts”, when 1/5 of them 25% don’t even know what they are doing half of the time they are diagnosing, prescribing medications, & treating their patients.
@@blossxmaif you feel you are take strength in it, you will find people who get you even if family don’t. Personally I have just constantly bombarded family with facts and chatting about it (even though they hate it) that they’re slowly getting there, especially my mum who totally has it too. Just talking about is the only way to unstigmatise it longterm :)
I think what John Green means on "paper towns" is that actually, the whole mystery and search for the manic pixie dream girl, are created by the boy. She has her own life, her own decisions that she took by herself, informed by her own life which we- through the protagonist's eyes- have never even thought about. We spend the whole book looking and longing for her, but in the end, she was never ours. In the end, we have this big plot twist that she wasn't there for him, she didn't love him, he barely knew her. I think this is the criticism in the book and I saw this when I read it, but I think it might've been a bit too subtle and too easy to be misread for what John Green claimed it was supposed to be, if that makes any sense
Yes, I totally see that and think it was a slight subversion from typical depictions! But I think by doing this at the VERY end of the story, whilst spending the entire story framing her as a MPDG it just replicated the MPDG dynamic 😭 whereas you see with Eternal Sunshine and Betty Blue those stories spend the entire story unpacking the dynamic which is what makes them different imo. I do like John Green tho!
@@FinalGirlStudios Yeah I get that! I think it might've been for the big plot twist at the end effect, rather than a real deconstruction of the narrative, which for more analytical purposes (like the video which I loved btw- even sent it to my bf) feels kinda cheap maybe? Like easy writing, since it's just replicating the trope. Just thought I'd highlight the subversion cause maybe some people didn't even realize it because of how subtle it is. I haven't seen either of the movies you recommended here but I'll look for where to watch them after this :)
I feel like he tried to do or what he did was similar to “500 days of summer” since both girls were depicted as manic pixie dream girls but in reality we’re just subjected to the wonder bread boy gaze.
I agree, that book changed me at 17
@@FinalGirlStudios If you don't mind me asking, what do you think of 500 days? You used a lot of clips of it but never directly addressed it, so I got curious
It is a subversion in that same way, still being a very male-centric story, but it works a lot better than Green's version I feel. Though I might just be biased toward Joseph Gordon Lewitt ☺
this is exactly why i fell in love with The Virgin Suicides! the boys are so infatuated with the manufactured image they created for the Lisbon sisters that they don’t even see the slow, painful death happening right in front of them. their pain and suffering becomes yet another thing for the boys to feed off of. we see how the boys grow up, start families of their own and move on with their lives. in all those years, they still don’t understand their role in the tragedy. the girls are immortalized as mere objects in the mind of the boys who fantasized about them. in the movie we don’t fully understand why the Lisbon sisters resorted to suicide. it’s not laid out for us like it is in the book. but i actually appreciate this artistic choice. we’ll never fully understand the Lisbon sisters because our protagonists never cared enough to understand them.
I only saw the movie. But I can definitely see that.
I had my manic pixie dream girl's moment with my first relationship. He said he would never leave me, that i changed him forever... and then he left. On a last phone call (i never cried that much in my whole life) he said that he was tired of me acting childlike, he hated my dangling earings, that i was weird...
Well, years has passed and turns out that i'm a Autistic ADHDer.
A year after our breakup he wanted to come back into my life. I said a clear NO. He is dead to me.
well said, Is just weird when someone in this case a guy goes around looking for a "unique girl" and wants it founds one, doesn't actually likes her, is like "sorry for no meet your expectations but you don't meet mines either".
@@rowanjoy419Is because those guys usually like the idea of having a weird girlfriend, but they don't really want a weird girlfriend, they want a pretty girl who Is "adorkable". Is the same thing with boys saying that they want a goth girlfriend and when they get with one they try to change her into someone "normal".
@@despinasgarden.4100 this is exactly what happen to Angela Benedicth, she tells her story on her channel. Basically, she is an elder goth that was always in the scene but then this guy made her cut her hair, mocked her style, shamed her for her music taste and made her ultimately miserable... and he said he always wanted a goth girlfriend. *sigh*.
I don't understand men who want women that are into alt things but then detest them for it. Shit, I'd love to have a partner that's into the same weird shit that I am!
Girl, I get the sense that this is where my relationship is heading... I'm going to have a real talk with him... When he met me, everything was wonderful and I was unique, now he wants me to shave, to make me grow and paint my nails, use ordinary makeup to be more "beautiful"... Preparing for the end just in case
The worst part of internalizing the Manic Pixie Dream Girl was realizing it led me to romanticize Stale White Wonderbread Boys who thought they should be the center of every narrative in real life.
Eventually I realized that I deserve partners who are interesting in and of themselves and not with me because I make them feel like they are more interesting than they really are.
Stale White Wonderbread Boys can often show up as ‘Nice Guys’ until you realize the fragile egos and the unchecked entitlement many of those types carry. They often think that they can become more interesting if they just get an interesting girl to like them. Which is still a form of objectification.
I would be lying if I didn’t say that the process to get to this realization was not a painful one with many hurts and disappointments.
This is so real… we accepted the stale white bread as love because we knew nothing about nutrition (men/ourselves) ❤
Lol yet stale white wonderbread men are still so appealing to women of colour. Over men of their own culture.
This!! It’s one thing for people to play out these dramas in real life. The question of who gets the bigger budget and support for distribution is entirely different. So many people miss this distinction.
Our art is as malnourishing as our ultra high processed food. What’s worse is that Americans export the junk art and junk food all over the world.
Yes! I feel like this also leads to women and girls feeling like they don't deserve/ couldn't be with someone better for you - who actually cares about you as person and wants to help you as well. At least it did for me.
So true!
As someone who highly relates to manic pixie dream girls (I'm autistic, so that might have a little to do with it) I married what a lot of people might consider a wonder bread boy.
Mainly because he's kind, understanding, empathetic and grounded.
He is stability in what is normally, for me, a very chaotic world, where it often feels like people don't seek to understand me, or don't have the patience to.
I've never felt more safe, secure or heard by anyone than this man I've married.
He's your typical gamer, that doesn't seem to express much whimsy, but I'm often imaginative enough to carry both of us away in conversation.
This isn't a fresh relationship, I've known him for twenty years, and been married to him for seven.
I wouldn't trade him for anyone.
This doesn't work with all bread. Some can be stale, and their interest is shallow. But what drew me to him was his kindness and understanding, and how much we could make each other laugh.
Очень мило:3
i know this comment was made a while ago but reading this was so touching, i'm glad you found someone in your life who made you feel heard and safe
I'm glad!! What a sweet comment.
Yeah, it was sad seeing Perks of Being a Wallflower showing up here, the main character was lovely and relatable too due to his trauma....which I shared.
Your relationship sounds rather like that of my son and daughter-in-law. They've been together since high school and I've never seen a pair so well-suited to each other. And so much of their glue is making each other laugh.
My favorite "Manic Pixie Dream Girl" Is Lorelai Gilmore for this exact reason. She has all the personality traits associated with the concept but is viewed through the lens of a variety of people(including herself). Both favorably and unfavorably and is allowed to demonstrate the strengths and weaknesses of this personality type.
Yes!!! I love lorelai because her character is both fun, quirky and endearing, while also not shying away from her more negative traits
???
I'm just an observer here but Lorelai Gilmore is one of the most toxic and dysfunctional female characters ever written. You do not want to be Lorelai Gilmore. Lorelai is not a happy person and she doesn't make people around her happy. In fact, if Lorelai didn't exist within a fantasy that is Stars Hollow with her nigh infinitely wealthy parents and her finances that make absolutely no sense when we assume she isn't living on her parent's money, Lorelai would be clearly the villain. It's only because the writer's are protecting her from her continual bad choices that we even are sympathetic to Lorelai at all.
another 'manic pixie dream girl' i feel is quite popular is Hannah Baker, but only from the perspective of Clay. He views her as a concept of a person that can fix or change him, and when she's gone, he feels empty. He feels that his purpose is to find her, as seen throughout the series, both through the tapes and continuing to fight for her memory to stay in the minds of others.I reality, she was very troubled and struggling, but Clay thought her 'quirkiness' and attributes, like how she spontaneously cuts her hair, just existed for him. He goes crazy when he finds out she slept with another man, and tries to find a new girlfriend to fulfill his needs. That is why his new girlfriend (I forgot a lot of names, as I haven't watched it in a while) feel as if she wasn't supported by Clay, as he was still feening for Hannah, as the new girlfriend wasn't 'manic pixie dream girl' enough for him.
@@celebrim1i agree she’s not the most amazing person and her circumstances are unrealistic but she’s not an inherently bad person. she’s had a lot of pretty privilege and general privilege but she’s still kind and funny and intelligent. she genuinely loves people and knows when she does something wrong. needing help from people isn’t a moral failing. i will say that her woe is me thing is annoying but it’s not entirely baseless either so it’s kinda 50/50. i think she’s prob the one of the most realistic characters in the show honestly and if she were a real person id probably like her overall. (ur opinion is still valid ofc tho just my take)
YES 👏🏻 YES 👏🏻 YES 👏🏻
Having to reject the stale white bonderbread boy because I could imagine the look on his face of utter disgust once he found out the manic pixie dream girl attributes were not the result of fun quirkiness but instead directly caused by childhood experiences of death, abuse, drugs, and fear … has anyone else experienced this ?
Overcomplicated for absolutely no reason. 😂
@briannadickson2884
The manic in manic pixie dream girl is there for a reason? It's a character by character basis but typically humans don't act "manic" for no reason. Some might just be like that personality wise, but realistically you're gonna find more people acting like that because if nurture not nature.
too real. it's all fun and games until the stale white wonderbread boy has to stick around and deal with the lingering trauma that made ms. manic pixie so manic in the first place
I feel like I am the male equivalent of a manic pixie dream girl.
The worst thing is about feeling safe, but actually loosing traction with everything they get to know.
Story. Of. My. Life.
I feel this on a spiritual level. Guys who approach me with the intention of forming a romantic relationship are always like: "You're not like the others." Most of them told me that they are attracted to me because I am "weird" or "quirky". Bro I just have autism, it's not that deep. 💀
Amazing video as always
I went though this as a teen as well..and lo and behold…autism.
LMAOOOO same 😂
well, I personally like people like that because it makes me feel relax, and I don't have to pretend to be put together, you know what I mean?
Just replace autism with ADHD and I have had guys say exactly the same thing to me in the past. I think a lot of these manic pixie characters are meant to be neurodiverse or portrayed that way.
i always related to manic pixie dream girls, even when they had the depth of a kiddie pool, and i think the tism is why.
problem is, it's all fun and games and "cute and quirky" until they have to face the day to day reality that no, this is who i am, and i can't turn it off when it stops being "cute and fun" for you. my directness is "so refreshing" until it becomes irritating when i don't play by the BS multi-layered social rules in a situation where you want me to, because i just don't understand them or why people don't just say what they freaking mean. it's so "cool how i get so passionate about things" until they realize i can't turn my hyperfixation off and they're sick of hearing about it.
like dude, it's not my fault you romanticized all this crap about me but then you don't like the reality of it.
To be fair, being a girl myself, I always empathised with the Stale White Wonderbread Boys. I understood them, I felt them, in many ways, I was them. In "The Perks of Being a Wallflower" and "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" especially. I was boring, I was quiet, and whenever someone payed attention to me I instantly felt drawn to them in hoping that they can change my life for the better. And I loved having films about characters like me. Boring, stale, sure. But we need representation too. Ironically, these kind of films helped me realised that I CAN'T depend on a different person to make my life better. I have to be my own Manic Pixie Dream Girl. No one will come and spark my life, that only happens in movies. And I'm glad I have them to comfort me along the way.
"So much of girlhood is performance art." Genius.
There is an Irish folklore creature that is a scary but cool, Vampiric, Manic Pixie Dream Girl, the Leanan Sidhe.
She's a vampiric fairy-muse who offers poets and artists alike with creativity and inspiration and imagination..... in exchange for half of their lifespan.
This lore was used to explain the sad and premature deaths of many a poet and artist and author.
Step aside crossroads devil, we have a new creature to explain why all of the Rock n Roll stars die at the age of 27.
whoa, I like that! I've been described as a vampiric mpdg before as I supposedly 'sucked' the life out the guys around me (I just had nice conversations and then stated I'm not interested...) well, turns out I'm neurodivergent and what was a basic conversation for me was next-level flirting for the guys...
@@maethefae you neurodivergent too? Cool, same here. and I'm also an aro ace.
Well, the drugs and booze also help.
@@wildmarjoramdieselpunk6396 and if they're wild playboys.... The venereal disease too.
Wow, I felt so seen. As a 25-year-old diagnosed with bipolar disorder, I have been multiple times compared to Ramona Flowers or with other manic pixie girls. Guys have talked to me like I am a literal fairy or like a fictional character that would add up some quirk and spice to their lives. And I absolutely relate to Clementine's quote, I have it tattooed on my mind.
It's very sad when men think you are a cute little thing they get to play with until they get tired (or until they see it's actually a mentally ill girl with serious issues that are not always "fun") and throw you away. I felt this listening to "Liability" by Lorde as well, although I am not sure it is the official meaning of the song.
Men like these also don't get it when you suddenly get serious or angry because they did something out of place, or when you set boundaries or even reject them. They are like "wow, you are so crazy for real! you were so fun and nice before, why are you rejecting me?". They never wanted to befriend you, they never saw you as a fully fleshed out person, you were just a thing.
Anyways, loved the video!
💖
How dare you address my lingering nicotine addiction that started in my pursuit of being a manic pixie dream girl era
Lmaooo ur not the only one
That’s embarrassing
“Smoking is NOT COOL” I repeat to myself, for the 1,000th time, while smoking, listening to some edgy ass music and dressed like The Craft feeling like the absolutely coolest person you know
i hate the negative connotation that manic pixie dream girl carries, and stale white wonderbread boy is a beautiful term that i will use from now on. also, great video to watch before the scott pilgrim anime release! (apparently theyre focusing more on ramona in the show, which hopefully fulfills desires of wanting to see more of her character. the comics actually show ramona being a lot more in depth; she and scott grow together, rather than her being a tool for him to evolve.)
while watching this video, i realized that so many of the films i love that were made in recent years depict women who, if they were secondary to a white man, would inevitably fall into the manic pixie dream girl trope. lady bird, marie antoinette, fleabag, nellie from babylon, juno, frances ha, and perhaps even barbie. but they're the center of the story, and that's why it's interesting and why i love it so much. i can see the type of women i relate to and aspire to be for who they are, not for what men think of them. that's insanely liberating.
we don't have to understand them through the lens of an annoying stale white wonderbread boy. they're interesting and charismatic, so they're the protagonist. like, imagine annie hall without having to see the world through woody allen's eyes! imagine annie hall but it's just annie hall! that would've been such a dream.
That’s such a great point with such great examples thank you!
Why do we judge "stale white wonder bread boys" for finding us exciting? If we are performative, we are performing for someone and so what? Why aren't we allowed? It's like the pendulum swings without balance. Men, not even white men, are the enemy. Imbalance is the enemy. Men are awesome and I will be the first to admit it. That doesn't mean women aren't awesome or that we're less awesome. Opposites attract, we search for what we lack and there is nothing wrong with that and in fact is pretty exciting.
@@tiffanyl4829 it’s not the fact that they find us interesting. for example, almost famous is one of my favorite films and the protagonist is a plain white boy who is immature and inexperienced so of course this group of artists is fun and interesting to him. or scott pilgrim for example, the whole point of the film is that he is an asshole who pursues girls who are way out of his league, but the film itself is aware of this. however, if you take films by directors like godard, rohmer or woody allen, they (sometimes) take these uninteresting, immature (and borderline incel) men as relatable when they’re not. they have nothing to add to the conversation and mistreat women, and yet these are the films that are considered classics.
my point is that sure, A LOT of men in the real world are great! but we still deserve art that views the world through our eyes, instead of almost exclusively viewing us through the eyes of a wonderbread man who sees us as a plot device to cure his existential crisis. most of the time, we too are going through shit, but only internally, since no one cares to explore them in a cinematic way. because of this, they feel less real compared to what men go through for having issues with their dad or whatever.
I love almost famous, but imagine an entire movie about penny lane's life. Can we get someone writing this immediately
nellie from babylon is mpdg though? i mean that's how i saw it, we see her through Manny, the way she talks and acts and worse the way damien chazelle chose to dress her sexy and completely anachronistically, the character screams "i'm not like any other girl"
in addition to what you said, i think that the "manic pixie dream girl" is usually a pretty girl with traumas and mental health issues but also (sometimes) an interesting personality with resilience, confidence and bravery that the guys usually don't have. instead of the girls being admired for those qualities, they become just like harley quinn: a clown. someone who is there just for entertainment purposes, to distract the man from his own issues. i wonder what atracted the girls to guys like that... maybe they mistake boringness with stability.
It always makes me so upset how the whole point of Scott Pilgrim is that both Scott and Ramona aren’t great people (heck most of the characters except Knives and Wallace aren’t tbh), and yet up until recently it was mainly Ramona who got flack when Scott is just as bad if not worse than she is. She got stuck with the MPDG label despite not even really being one when you look more into it, and suddenly she’s the worst characters ever who “ruined a whole generation of girls” (as that stupid song so lovingly put it). She’s not perfect and she’s not supposed to be. Scott represents those guys in geek/alternative/underground spaces who think they can do no wrong because they aren’t “popular”, but can’t see that they themselves are usually the problem. Like I wish more people could see that you’re not supposed to want to be the characters of SP, but since the main story line is an average white guy and a beautiful girl getting together I can’t say I’m surprised. I’m glad more people are realizing this though, and with the anime coming out it’ll be cool to hopefully see this point more realized than a 2 hour movie could do
I'm hoping the animated version coming out soon better follows the comics. Each character is flawed and goes through some growth, and theres no room for that in the film.
Theres nothing wrong with an average guy getting with a pretty girl what are you on about.
@@GameChanger-xi4iy theyre not saying thats the problem. Theyre pointing out how ramona is the one being blamed for being flawed in that typical "nerd film relationship" of pretty girl with average guy. When scott is equally flawed and causing a lot of situations to get messed up. You just dont see it in the film as its too short to show true growth of characters or investigate their flaws deeper.
@@GameChanger-xi4iy that’s what you took from this? 😂😂😂
@@poppymason-smith1051 you do see it in the film if you pay attention lol
As a young girl I had always hated being idealized by boys my age believing I was a manic pixie dream girl, even though I didn't knew the term at the time. I hated the fact that just because I liked stuff "others girls didn't like", I was categorized as quirky, when in reality, all girls my age liked the same things I liked in someway, they just weren't asked if they did so, because they dressed "like every other girl", or they were embarrassed to talk about their interests in fear they would be made fun of. In my first teenage years I had always thought to myself (and sometimes told boys) "I'm not different, I'm like every "other" girl, you just didn't take the time or made the effort to know them better". Also the fact that I'm neurodivergent takes an important role in all of this. We are seen as a concept, rather than humans.
In my personal experience, that's why it's so difficult for me to have friends of the opposite gender, I had always found myself falling in this category, and it was so frustrating, because I never felt our "friendship" to be more than my personality and traumas being romanticized by them, and later on them wanting to date me. I was "different", but I never "knew" enough, it's common knowledge that if a girl likes something she has to know enough to be considered a fan, but if she knows too much she's a crazy fangirl who's obssessed.
In the other hand. I had always found myself weirded out by "pick me girls" because I had received that kind of attention by men, and, it was not cool or nice at all. It's not nice always being belittled because of your interests and passions, and at the same time glorified in some kind of way. Like you said, it felt like a performance. I had to be perfect in the art to be imperfect, and it was never enough, so now, at 18 years old, I have found myself at peace, not caring if I knew enough or too much about my own interests, because they're mine, my own interests. I'm comfortable with who I am now. And I think that's the most important thing.
💖
I married a “manic pixie dream girl”. In reality she was a hip poet that loved Mazzy star, Peter Gabriel , tu pac, had a photographer eye, has a short platinum bob cut, and loves to dress in lace. She loves me for being a mature “bad boy” and accepts her for being her and not fetishizing her. I guess we were both “archetypes” that found and fell in love with the human in the concepts.
Are you Gen x?
@@Thrivinginthespotlight yes I am. And so is my wife.
Congrats king.
This is so sweet
Так мило т-т
I had the same experience when I had a coloured bob and worked as a grocery cashier, with one major difference: the men almost never actually said "Ramona Flowers". What they said was "You look like the girl from Scott Pilgrim" -_-
I would have also said "the girl from Scott Pilgrim" because if you say her name to me, I know who she is, but if you ask me to name her, I can't. lol I've seen the movie once when it came out, I'm not a Scott Pilgrim connoisseur.
I would 100% say this
Because it is the title 9f the movie?
Because it is the title 9f the movie?
I think every girl that has dealt with depression has had a manic pixie dreamgirl era. For me, it's a dissociation characteristic of wanting to be saved. For me, it's a phase. I think this is why it's valid especially for teens who are figuring themselves out. We eventually grow from it but it's nice to see a representation of what it's like to dissociate but at the same time be so alluring to people who see you in this time. I say this from the point of view of the manic pixie herself because I've been her.
as a teen girl who’s been going through a rough time lately , i have definitely found myself leaning into the manic pixie dream girl trope a bit too much , to the point where i’m losing who i actually am & becoming a shell of a person . it’s both comforting and terrifying , as it’s basically a persona that i can hide my real personality behind while enjoying the benefits of the trope ( for example sexual attention - though the dynamic is a bit different since i am queer ) , but i can feel myself slipping & doing reckless things or things i wouldn’t do normally just to live up to people’s growing expectations of me .
@@nicole-rb4iw I understand that and I've been you. I hope you make smart decisions even with these urges. Self-awareness is the first step and I think surrounding yourself with those who won't take advantage of you in this state is also really important. Always be safe and don't do things that will have a lasting effect. - Just an advice from someone who has been there and now more in control of my mind. It will get better and you will get better at handling emotions. Just always be smart even if you feel manic.
I feel the same but more secure now so nothing bad has happened in a long time because stability really helped
@@pennydls5073 thank u , thankfully i have rly great friends so i don't feel taken advantage of for the most part :+) trying to not do anything too stupid atm . hope i get out of this myself ahah
I connect to Manic Pixie Dream Girls as a neuro-divergent person with "elcectic" interests and habits but I'm also a queer asexual! I noticed that a lot of femme-characters who are intentionally written to be neurodivergent could've fallen into the MPDG trope if they weren't also queer or single (like Lily from Sex Education).
I also noticed that neurodivergent coded women are often the Manic Pixie Dream Girl types while neurodivergent coded men are often the snarky blunt cynical types. I feel like there's some underlying misogyny with how neurodivergence is typecasted by gender in media that still leans into gender stereotypes and how either way, the woman still has to look after the man.
Same here, I only saw myself in these characters. it's sad cause I feel theres a lot of hostility/fetishism directed towards these kinds of characters and women today, people are so often wrongly labelled "nlogs" and try hard as if theyre playing characters, told to shed their weird mask- as if it is a mask, but some of us are stuck this way for better or for worse.
And even if it is an act, i mean what's wrong with that? Men go through phases but are not at all scrutinised to the extent that women are. The way I see it if girlhood is a performance then both women and men are the critics. It's a tough being a girl today
@@tcrijwanachoudhury exactly but then women who are "normal" get called basic so like, what can we be???
Speaking as someone who did have NLOG mentality in my early teens, my gender-nonconformity and special interests wasn't actually a facade. I think most girls who go through that phase aren't actually being inauthentic, it's just that we were made to feel like it was us against the world and we took it out on femininity. It's obviously still problematic but it's annoying how people came to this conclusion that it was all for male approval when most of us were literally just queer and/or neurodivergent.
Like it's literally just sexism and I feel like we should be interrogating the men more if they really are eyeing girls for being sexist and "different". 🙃
Im not suggesting that if you were inspired by Manic Pixie Dream Girl characters you are inherently performing for a male gaze. I am discussing my own personal experience with the Manic Pixie Dream Girls trope and the experiences of many women/femmes that I have spoken to who have grown up being influenced by this trope and the way in which our experiences have been influenced by the male gaze.
If you don’t relate to the experience that is completely fine haha
@@FinalGirlStudios oh yeah, I wasn't trying to imply that you were. I was just sharing my own observations I made as a queer person where that trope does tend to exist in proximity to heterosexuality :p
@@sapphic.flowerwow, I relate to you like _a lot_ . I think I was also like this, but I never really found the write words. I always described my teen self as almost "jagged" because I knew I was different from the girls and people around me and I felt a lot of resentment towards femininity because I didnt feel it included me. I don't know if I would say that this is an NLOG- as that's a category of "pick me girls" and you and me sis, we were not trying to be picked lol and if we were then that wasnt the incentive, it's so hard trying to be like others when you're just not.
This is really beautifully put though and shows that things arent always the way they seem and that sometimes these categories can restrict the discourse around girlhood and how diverse it is.
i really hate the manic pixie dream girl trope bc it doesn't usually show any of the actual real sides of being manic - mania is extremely dangerous. it puts people in the hospital, and actually physically deteriorates your health, specifically gray matter in the brain. it's not a fun quirky cool little experience. often, the flip side of mania, once it stops (and it does, mania can't happen all day every day for people and if it does, that is very very bad) people usually go into a similarly long depressive episode, which is also extremely dangerous and can cause people to self harm, or even end their own lives.
mania isn't cute. it is a mental illness that causes people to experience actual psychosis, and is very very dangerous.
Thank you for saying this, coming from someone who is bipolar
Yes I hate that it got called this when most of them are just a little chaotic!
The best treatment of this is 'Ruby Sparks', written and the lead acted by Zoe Kazan. It’s Pygmalion crossed with the MPDG. Co-directed by a woman as well.
It’s fantastic in showing all the stages of the male fantasy curdling, the woman being slowly shrunk by his expectations and dehumanization, and her showing and vocalizing how this feels and rebelling. Paul Dano plays the bitter anger you describe to perfect sinister effect.
Highly recommend!
I actually have this movie. It's straight on point.
This made me realize that the boy I was friends with as kids who would not stop crushing on me, maybe saw me as his manic pixie dream girl. He very much was a stale white wonderbread boy. But I honestly felt like I couldn't escape him as I couldn't escape my home life. I wasn't a manic pixie dream girl, I was just mentally ill.
He can still like you even if ur mentally ill idk what ur talking about
I can't imagine ever referring to someone I was friends with as stale bread, and I hope he moved on from such a silly crush on you.
@mrskyler44 yeah ik the point I was making was that he was obsessed with me and it wasn't okay, he wasn't even a friend really he just was stubborn and couldn't stop objectifying me and clinging to me. It drove me to do some dumb things to annoy him away and honestly good on him for finally leaving, I also dunno how I could've pushed him away any harder. He wasn't nice to me he did nice things in hope of things I didn't want to do. He wasn't a good person let alone friend. I only returned the favor of behavior to push him away since telling him was not something I was able to do properly, being a child and mentally unstable without proper support. I'm an adult now and know better now both on setting boundaries, not even befriending jerks in the first place, and dealing with my own mental stuff. I also have a boyfriend now and try my best with him despite my mental health. I'm in full support of people with unsound mental health getting love, what that dude wanted wasn't love really. It was obsessive and unhealthy.
@ericbuzard349 We weren't friends. He was a creep and I didn't know how to get rid of him. He was obsessive, controlling, and only was nice when he thought he could get something. I know better now how to properly get rid of people like that and what signs to look for so I never "befriend" them in the first place. We were kids.
@@aquaticnerd5854 You literally opened with "the boy I was friends with". 🙄
I love your channel. Cinema critique so rarely captures the nuance that yours does, being the feminine / neurodivergent, and I seriously appreciate your eloquence and ability to articulate ideas and feelings I’ve thought and felt but never could express quite right. Thank you!
Thank you so much!!🥹
I love the term you coined, Final Girl Studios, “stale white wonderbread boy” 😆 This was a really well analysis and take.
I’m glad you pointed out “clementine” not fitting the mold of the “manic pixie dream girl” and that really it was more that Joel viewed her as such. I’m always seeing her dragged in the conversation or in videos about this topic, when she had admitted in the film that she wasn’t.
I also can relate to you with being interested in the manic pixie dream girl and wanting to know more about *her* backstory rather than perceived through the lens of a bland, male main character: “a shell of the human she is.”
I recently watched ‚Watching the Detectives‘ from 2007 with Lucy Liu playing the character Violet. In the first few minutes of her appearance, Violet felt so fresh and free in a patriarchal life. Leading her life truly beyond the norms, which ultimately felt encouraging. Throughout the plot though, she is being depicted driving her love interest insane. By not aligning to his life and job and idea of relationship. Same old, same old.
soo good, and its something i realized after leaving my 4 year + toxic relationship a year ago. i think i would have been considered this "manic pixie dream girl " title to my ex, but in reality i was just as broken as my ex was when i met him and the drug of love intoxicated us and blinded us both. Even being back in the dating scene afer a year ive realized that there are parts of me that seem performative for men, that stem from the manic pixie dream girl idgaf energy to just be yourself. in reality, i think that's why i always like manic pixie dream girl characters because no matter what they were very honest to who they are. when you are lost and you are damaged , burtally honest, and unprohibited human people are magnetic. they often show us what we're lacking and thats what this whole trope is about. you know? now im intrigued to watch a movie about the same dynamic but with teh genders reversed. its hard ot imagine the same situation where a man wouldn't take advantage for the fact a girl is preceiving him in such a dreamy, romantic , inspiring way
I definitely latched onto anything with depictions of girls resembling this trope as a teen. But I always saw myself in the boys and wished I could be more like the girls. I always felt so stiff and boring and restrained, I wanted to be creative and express myself and stop being so careful all the time. In some ways I used these films (and my whole time on Tumblr, let's be real) as a way for me to learn how to love all of the parts of myself
Omg same! It's so nice knowing that I'm not alone 😅 i admired characters like them so much because I felt that I was unremarkable yet they were so cool, just existing and being themselves while also being admired for being themselves and given the freedom and space to do that, I didn't feel like I was allowed to be like that, that it's wrong if I do it and it's only suited to a certain type of girl, now I'm trying my best to live authentically within my neurospicyness and openly welcoming who I am. Getting past the fear of being perceived and actually full on embracing my self and not betraying myself isn't exactly easy to do on some days but when I come through it's so worth it
То же самое!! Я думала, что одна такая
I love Amelie because its a story about a manic pixie dream girl finding her manic pixie dream boy
20:18 this part is so true "many of us gravitated to the manic pixie dream girl because it's a consumable fix for our undiagnosed neurodivergence and quirks" and it makes me sad, because every bit of femininity was made performative and made me feel like everything about me is not real
Penny Lane is my ULTIMATE Manic Pixie Dream Girl..I loved her character so much for the longest 😭
Oh my gosh I LOVED their dynamic in 10 things I hate about you, I honestly loved the whole movie, every character felt fully developed and real
Almost Famous is such a gem of a movie!
I love this take! The character trope of the manic pixie dream girl always annoyed and frustrated me because men would project/force those expectations onto me in real life. Even though I was drawn to these characters, it was the way my ex’s expected me to be her, and perceived me as her due to my bubbly personality IRL. This leads me to conclude a guy doesn’t have to be white to be a stale bread boy. This includes in media, as a lot of stale breads actually exist in anime. In fact, they are super common in some genres like isekai, general fantasy/ sci-fi and harem. The stale bread boy also exists in anime for the audience to project themselves onto. I think the real issue is the stale breads/ perception of stale breads and the narrative being focused on bland and boring characters. No writer should aim to write a stale bread. All characters deserve development, depth and care.
There's a really great movie called Mad Love starring Drew Barrymore in all her 90s glory as a textbook Manic Pixie Dream Girl who has some serious underlying mental health issues, similar to Betty Blue.
I used to rent it on VHS all the time as an undiagnosed Neurodivergent blue-haired teen, it's really an underrated gem of a film 🌈💙✨️
I was just going to make the same comment. I remember when the movie came out so many girls at school would romanticize being flawed, damaged and carefree just like the character. Drew Barrymore was excellent in that roll.
Love that movie to !! Crazy beautiful is also good with Kirsten Dunst
Poison Ivy w Drew Barrymore started it in the 90s.
I still think Almost Famous deserves a whole movie devoted to *her*. And really, the Groupie itself. There's something so truly effervescent about the flower child, sexually free, quirky and whimsical beauty who wanted to be close to the world of music... Feel it in her bones, love it with all her heart, and treasure the artists who make her feel alive. How much I relate, as a 'I'm with the band' girl myself. How much I LOVE hearing Pamela Des Barres bubble on about her years, how much she loved *herself*. Rather than a movie about a journalist and a band... Where's the movie about the groupie girl?
I wish people didn’t hate manic pixie dream girls haha. Cause I feel like I definitely vibe with them being fun and cute and just a vibrant character. I feel sometimes I’m the description. Or just relate to these pixie girls so much. Also just letting you know, you are so pretty and ver ethereal looking!
“To be loved is to be consumed”
Nearly broke me, thanks for highlighting that
Great analysis! I especially appreciate that you put context around Lolita and Nabakov's intentions. So many people think that Lolita condones pedophilia, but the book reveals that Humbert is a monster who is writing his own narrative.
interesting. I grew up with kirsten dunst movies, and i must admit that this personality of " be whatever for the guy" and just exactly what the manic pixie dream girl ting is... it had an effect on me growing up. i am 32 now. and it was only when i was 26 i started realizing it had had this effect. it changed how i viewed me as a woman in relation to a man. to not have real needs. to only be paper thin. underneath the surface, just be more surface - cause it's all he wants. he doesn't want you if you are difficult and complex. be a s3xy riddle. haha just be a pretty, weird, blank space for him to project anything onto. i don't know man... this trope just had an effect on me for a long while. very very true how girlhood is performance art.
stale white wonder bread boy is a PERFECT sentence 😄😄
Brilliant 👏
I sometimes feel that men are often portrayed as real & solid.....while women are portrayed as the light that reveals them in some essential way :)
YES. I call the term "manic pixie Dream Girl-ING". The GIRL herself is not the problem. Having this false dehumanizing lens places ON her, by Men, is the issue.
I have the adhd and the autism i am on the list for diagnosis now at the age of 40. Growing up manic pixie dream girls, and odd cult classics where the trope was expanded were the characters i related to the most always.
I have given up on relationships and dating because too many times I have become a therapist instead of a girlfriend, or been dumped, cheated on and have even experienced abuse when I can't complete their lives and live up to their expectations because shocker I am a real human.
The manic pixie dream girl traits have a balance... sure I can run around being cooky and fun and enjoy jumping in puddles and predicting what i might think up or say next is difficult... but I can also have crippling anxiety and be unable to leave the house, or if I make it to that huge event we've been looking forward to I may have to leave because I have a massive panic attack or make us late because my brain cannot compute how time works. Sure some times I will be full of that unstoppable energy but at others I will need everyone (including that partner that thinks I will complete them) to go away and spend time exhausted and alone in a room recovering or napping, or I will feel ill because I forgot to eat or drink water. The list goes on and on.
I don't think finding someone who sees, accepts and respects all of me as a complete human is impossible, I just can't be bothered sorting through the minefield and putting my energy into getting to know people to try and find it.
I hear you and see you ❤ , thanks for sharing yourself.
This hits the spot!
I've seen a lot of comments of girls who are neurodivergent and can't switch off their quirks and interests "at demand".
I, too, was somewhat of a MPDG (being a queer, person of color in a white dominant country with hyperfixation on niche interesses). Some people tried to date me just wanted a quirky, fun and exotic girlfriend to "add some spark" to their boring lives.
The thing is, they could break off the relationship when tired or not wanting to deal with my culture, the constant medical visits, and societal judgements. I couldn't change my skin color nor shake off the alienation nor the passive racism. I couldn't just correct my brain lmao.
I wish there are more movies about POC girls being passionate about stuff and is the main character of her own life. Not romanticized by some average dude whose privilege allows him to make these movies in the first place.
Wow. Just wow. I'm kind of at a loss for words after watching this. I feel so seen and understood. You put this all in such a perfect perspective for me. As someone who's been called "manic pixie dream girl" more than once in my life, and felt put on that dreaded pedestal, and also recited Clementine's speech multiple times, thank you. This was an amazing watch.
I say the manic pixie dream girl and stale white wonder bread boy are narrative counterparts and should be examined in conjunction. . Brilliant video! 🤍🩵
This video is awesome! Recently I was feeling like my boyfriend is treating me like a "manic pixie dream girl", and this video magically appeared... It's not because you "got the smart, quirky girl" that now I have to solve all of his problems and then be sidelined! This helped me to better elaborate my thoughts so I can express them in a better way when I inevitably talk about this...
We should have better girl representation on TV!
'Make our undiagnosed neurodivergence consumable' really hit me😢 I loved your research and the points you make. Thanks for sharing quality content
that line by clementine has always been my favorite. i find men in my life have often viewed me as their manic pixie dream girl but i’m just clementine being perceived incorrectly .
this was gorgeous. thank you so much for bringing it back home in the last half. that call for introspection was needed!
The “manic pixie dreamgirl” often does find the “manic pixie dream boy” - the problem with those movies is that artsy interesting creative boys are always toxic in movies ( and usually in real life ) which shifts the entire movie. Because a manic pixie dreamgirl isnt a bad person, theyre quirky. The manic pixie dream boy that is “quirky” in an attractive way is always a womanizer or the best that a boy can be of that
I honestly wouldn’t call Sam from Perks of Being Wallflower a manic pixie dream girl, I think at first she is supposed to seem that way, but then she actually gets fleshed out. She has her own life, her own issues and interests, and her own goals and ambitions aside from Charlie. Also, while Charlie’s life is improved by knowing her, she doesn’t single handedly fix his life and in fact he actually has to get real mental health treatment before he can get better. So I don’t think their dynamic actually falls under a White Bread Wonder Boy and Manic Pixie Dream Girl. Also if I’m going to be honest calling Charlie a Stale White Wonderbread boy is also wrong in my opinion…yeah he’s kind of “boring” but that’s because he’s not able to be himself bc of true childhood trauma stemming from abuse, which it’s revealed Sam also went through. Unlike a lot of the other male characters you included here, he doesn’t have milquetoast white man issues, he has legit mental health issues that a lot of ppl, man or woman, can relate to, but I would not say he is a blank canvas at all. So while I agree with every other example you included I don’t agree with Perks because both characters are fleshed out and deep and they both help each other, it’s not a one way street. But to each their own. Also sorry if I’m a little passionate about this, since I do love your videos, it’s just that the book and movie mean a lot to me as a kid who also went through SA, and it means a lot to a lot of ppl.
This is why I love Amelie, she's fits all the quirkiness of a manic pixie girl but the story is all about her, her life, her motives!
where’s she from?
Ugh thank you so much for creating this! You're able to articulate everything I rant to my friends about whenever this subject comes up +more.
I feel like when the general public sensationalizes and/or shames this trope (and misuses the term to refer to real-life people), THEY are embodying the stale white men! You were so right about womanhood as a performance - the curse of womanhood is that MPDGs ARE real, in the sense that there will ALWAYS be a Manic Pixie Dream Girl created & perceived through the eyes of a real-life Stale White Bread.
That being said, I'd like to imagine that we, the viewers of these movies, are the Stale White Bread in a way. I know I was, when I first watched so many of these movies as a teen. The MPDGs inspired me - for all the same reasons you shared, as a girl who felt "different" - but like their White Breads, MY eyes were opened that life could be lived outside of society's norms and standards that so repressed me. I was able to see myself in older adult characters who had unique & creative interests, acted liberated, and didn't (always) center men in their very full lives.
In that sense, I don't personally think it's embarrassing at all to try to embody MPDGs in your own life, especially during the formative years. Yes, it IS embarrassing to act inauthentically for the sake of male approval - but we are all REAL LIFE PEOPLE, NOT MOVIE CHARACTERS. If you thought Clementine's potato projects were cool, you have every reason to pick up a hobby like that for yourself! As human beings, we will always have that depth we so craved to see revealed in those iconic MPDGs. So I like to see those characters as catalysts for viewers' self-actualization and living in their truths.
This is the video essay to end all MPDG video essays. I hope we can move forward in film, with better written women :)
peace and love!
Every time I see this trope it makes me think of my teenage self. It felt to me like everyone of my many friends and teachers etc. viewed me like this. it was so surface and superficial but inside i was screaming. I got to a point when i left home and cut all my friends off because they didn't really know who I was and I didn't know how to share it more. I thought everyone must feel the despair I felt and for some reason they could cope and I couldn't. i was suicidal when a doctor finally diagnosed me with severe clinical depression. I still look at those characters and and confused by them because I don't think we are being shown their real self at all.
The part of the trope that never made much sense to me is why she is interested in the stale white wonder bread boy. I think it comes down to looking for a deep connection and not knowing how to achieve it.
She is the inspiration to the male character, so they go from “boring” or bored with their lives, to being exhilarated and enthusiastic for living itself. It’s not so much about the girl you are right, it’s about what she can do for someone who enters her life.
I love this video essay so much. Ever since I heard about the trope of 'Pixie dream girls' it bothered me the amount of criticism these characters received for being fake or unrealistic. But as you had mentioned, a lot of these characters are coded representations of autistic women who are unrepresented in media. There is nothing wrong with eccentric and impulsive women with niche interests. As an autistic guy it bothers when people argue that this style of person is unrealistic or is a less legitimate mode of being. The problem is how they are treated by these stories and writers, particularly with how they are taken advantage of by men. Which is why I love you exploration of the 'stale white wonder bread boy'. Part of how I have understood these characters is that part of the autistic coding of the Dream Girl is her isolation and lack of companionship which affects all autistic people. And I think this lack of companionship is what draws the Dream Girl toward the Wonder bread Boy, she is wanting a friend, but the Wonder bread Boy places a cost on the relationship requiring it to be a romantic/sexual relationship. An interesting exploration of this space was done in Mozart & the Whale (2005). The film is explicitly about autistic people, but the character of Izzy fulfils the characteristics of a Pixie Dream Girl. In that film there is a scene where she discusses boundaries with the prospective boyfriend and describes how she had been taken advantage of in the past in ways that parallel the plot of a Pixie Dream Girl film. It would be cool if films explored these spaces a bit more and explore autistic women as complete fleshed out people, there is a lot to explore in this space, like the degree of Masking is used and the struggle to identify one's authentic self.
In Titanic, Is Jack Rose’s manic pixie dream guy? How come no one ever references Jennifer Aniston’s character in Along Came Polly as MPDG? I would argue that Holly Golightly in Breakfast at Tiffany’s is not a MPDG. She is the main character of the story and her faults are more than evident, she is not romanticized in any way, she even tells Paul that people don’t belong to people.
Yes, Jack is a manic pixie dream guy! There is also a Titanic theory that Rose had a psychotic break due to being forced to marry Cal, which resulted in her suicide attempt. Jack never actually existed. Rose experiences further trauma during the ship wreck and hallucinates the death of her lover that never was. I suggest looking it up, it’s such a fascinating theory. Personally I choose not to believe it, as Rose and Jack were my favourite movie couple as a kid.
For Holly, she wouldn't even have been that if it stuck closer to the book. They were just two people who impacted each other, but Holly could not be owned by anyone. And Paul didn't really want to be with her or have her, I think he really wanted to be her. He couldn't live life the way he wanted, she could. And yeah, it's her story.
@@Jenny-vm3yu that’s an interesting theory. I don’t want to believe it, though, because I feel the same as you about them as a couple.
@@LeapThroughTheSky I heard the book is really different than the movie. I need to read it someday.
@@Purplenpinkk It's only like a 100 pages so it's a very short and fun read! Yeah, the undertone is far more that he's gay. I genuinely like both for different reasons. It's not a very exact adaption, but I think it's a fun interpretation especially within the constraints of the time.
Wow, thank you for this video, I think you did a very good job of going even further into dept of this very much dusscussed story trope. You've hit every aspect I could think of spot on. Looking back on my life i think I've always been a perfect canvas for this trope. I wish I knew earlier about this social roles we as a society build up. I can understand that I and other girls and women liked to play along with it. Living with depression and a chronic feeling of oddness and beeing inappropiate it first seems nice to see a relatable character beeing admired. But looking back on a row of relationships built on dreams, looking back on a life where my suffering has been ignored and romantiziced and my needs where hardly ever met I can just sit here virtually high fiveing you on every critizism you made here.
When I reached my 30s, I slowly realized what was going on, but I found it hard to escape this dynamics. The manic pixie dream girl didn't dissapear it slowly turned into a mary poppins character. I've been called a lovely fairy, my female friends loved to turn me into a dream of an superhero friend that can also look out for their kids and the age of the men approaching me raised to 60 and above. I don't want to see this nightmare being turning into an poisoned dream to make women and men stick to this shitty dynamics. I mean you brought up a few very good examples on how to realisticly address the struggles behind those quirky facades. I'd also love to see more examples of real men and woman, real relationship and the work, commitment and compassion necessary to make things work, especially if there are mental health problems in the way.
A big hug to you and all the fellow humans, this video spoke to
Wow. When you got to the part where you talk about making neurodivergence palatable and consumable… wow. Powerful insight. This was really really well done. Thank you so much for your hard work.
I love your content and had never considered what you might look like and was wonderfully surprised to see the Druscilla from Buffy aesthetic. Great video as always and love to see a fellow goth lady (/femme) out in the world ❤
As a manic pixie dreamgirl esque girl myself you perfectly captured why this trope makes me so angry! Because no! I don't want to end up with the stale white wonderbread boy!
Omg thank you so much - I love Betty Blue!! I saw it years ago and couldn't remember the name or any way of finding it. Thank you so much for finding it for me! I totally agree btw, it's about relationships and how they grow thru obstacles, one of which is destroying the idealization of the other person, and it felt pretty balanced between the partners in detail and development in a way MPDG tropes aren't.
Yours is the first video critique I've seen to mention Gregg Araki, and it was great to see him getting the spotlight he deserves. This is a great vid overall, thanks for taking the time to make it!
I'm on the autism spectrum and grew up with mental illness that made it hard for me to socialize and feel normal. That's why I never understood the hype over being "quirky" and "weird" and how that suddenly became cool. If anything, it's debilitating and quite isolating.
I have a friend who has romantic feelings for me who is very much like the male archetype you described, and he views me as his manic pixie dream girl. It makes me very uncomfortable because he visibly has negative reactions whenever I deviate from his perception of what a MPDG is in his head. It's like I'm not even a person.
While it can be flattering to be put on a pedestal, it's also anxiety inducing because it feels like walking on a tight rope of their expectations. I don't wish to be and for my issues to be romanticized. The closest I got to him being real was when he acted cold towards me after I came back from a mental breakdown hiatus where I wasn't talking to him or anybody. My brain needed a break from everyone and everything. Mind you, I know that it's my fault, but I did communicate to him prior to fully steeping in my misery that I needed some time alone. What isn't my fault is managing his romantic expectations of him helping me through my trials, and me building him up to be a man. I lost respect for the situation because he babbled every time I opened up to him and told other people, and because he wasn't interested in helping out of friendship, but rather because he hoped to gain points so I'd fall for him. No thank you, you're 32, grow up already.
Garden State has the most human manic pixie dream girl for me - they give her a full storyline behind her quirkiness (neurodivergency) and does show her shame surrounding being different. In most the movies we miss out on seeing the embarassment and shame of being different. They show the manic pixie dream girl as impenetrable against negative opinions and interactions which is unrealistic.
The men I've talked with that greatly dislike manic pixie dream girls see them as manipulative/acting, but the reasoning behind being 'different' isn't for the male gaze, it's just a state of general being.
What's wrong with acting? I recent came across a group of guys on UA-cam complaining that make-up is deceiving. And claimed that women are dishonest for using it. I just find it an artistic and personal expression that is fun and creative.
@@DavidParket-g1hRefreshing viewpoint! I agree.
@user-jz2yd9qj3y Meh I know a guy who has similar views in real life. Let's just say he is nearly in his 40s single and never been in a relationship.
I would personally not give notice to what guys like that think they are usually misogynistic. I know this particular guy I know says a female wearing make up is deceiving, that he wants a girl who wears no make up but then makes fun of the way women look if they don't wear makeup.
With guys like that you cannot win.
They usually want a girl born with a natural filter or something.
In some way, my novel is a sort of subversion of this trope. It’s written like a film log that my male main character is recording, when he eventually meets the female main character. From an outside gaze she would seem like a manic pixie dream girl who helps him be more spontaneous, but she’s got her own hidden struggles and responsibilities outside of the mmc. In the end, it so happens that the male main character ends up supporting her when she reveals her struggles. Even though they both like eachother, they never get together because they realize that for the time being, they need to support eachother as friends rather than lovers. I found the thing you said about perspective interesting, because the format of my novel plays with the idea that you can’t see everything on screen at once, which reflects how at first the mmc saw the fmc through his own gaze, and later when she opens up to him he sees her beyond this one-dimensional camera view.
This is an amazing video essay. Thank you. You’ve articulated so many of my half-formed thoughts about the manic pixi dream girl and why I feel both anger and love when I think of these characters
Several of the guys who have liked me in the past because I was their "Manic Pixie Dream Girl". I was loud and out there and "different". None of them actually knew me. They only knew that part of me. It wasn't until recently why I had such a problem with why they liked me. Now I've realized why.
this entire video is so real. I'm a (mildy) feminine trans guy and literally just having short hair and being autistic I get seen as a Manic pixie dream girl so very often. From getting hit on at 15 by some senior guy in sports because i wore colorful outfits to my most recent romantic encounter being with a guy that has been both extremely cruel to me and also avidly admiring me from a distance. Simply because he doesn't like me as a full person, just as something fun and 'different'.
You are literally me, my dude (though I’m androgynous, not a femboy). So many people assume that I’m going to save them. When in reality, I’m just a weird dude who happens to look like an androgynous girl.
beautiful deconstruction. this in on point!
Thank you!!💖
I am actually amazed by the accuracy of everything you said in this video. One of the best video essays out there!!!
im so glad ur talking about this yay
I'd say the girl from 500 days of summer also isn't an actual manic pixie dream girl as the story blatantly contrasts the male's idea of her with the reality and it shows how she exists outside of him and doesn't end up with him (iirc). Also Before Sunset is a great movie where both characters are quirky and well developed, it felt like both are manic pixie-ish but also had actual chemistry beyond that usual dynamics.
1) early 2000s Orlando Bloom is brioche and not stale wonder bread (especially in Parâtes of the Carribean). 2. Zach Braff on the other hand is essentially the crap bread you use to make croutons with
Also manic in the Scrubs performance, sort of switches roles to a deadened over medicated person in Garden State. Knowing many.over medicated people, I am glad to see them in the spotlight, even if part of the story line is that he had stunted growth because of his father and his diagnosis. Thinking that his short romance will change everything is a mistake - the biggest step he makes is in the appointment with the neurologist. Some of the people I know actually would be sent back to asylums if they don't take their meds.
Thank you for this video!!
After your analises I can see this portrait also resonates with the beauty and beast tale, the idea women shouldn't judge by appearance, that the noble thing to do is "see the heart of a beast that imprison you", that is that a what a good "person" (but it only women that we see doing so) SHOULD do or something... is the eternal Revenge of the Nerds, man can be to bland, monsters, misogynistic, but they get the girl/women -> they WANT, and they serve then, save them, never judge then, but the most problematic I would say is: Expect nothing in return!
I believe that is the biggest trap we were taught (mostly neglect people will be the ones to fell on it). We were taught to give, to be hot, to be interesting, to love unconditionally, while even it is clear in this scenario, the "love" we will receive will be very conditional, because if it wasn't we should need to check so many boxes.
The Male Hero of Almost Famous can not be blamed to be normal. If you see him as normal you have not really seen the Movie.
“to be loved is to be consumed”. damn. that line really did something to me lmao i guess i always fear that i’ll never be close to anyone if im not digestible enough for them. gonna go contemplate now
Oh my god I love you 😭😭😭 I relate to mpdg’s so much and I’m always hearing how “unrealistic” and “manufactured” these characters are; but I always thought (as an autistic gal mind you) that they were really good representations of me and myself despite whatever the plain joe male main characters thought of them 🥺😔 also your videos are just cool and I’ve been watching daises and vahwow {:
Years ago, I had a heated argument with a guy who was adamant about defending the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope. It started when he said something like, "Where’s MY Ramona Flowers?" As a neurodivergent female, I could sense that films featuring MPDGs were often using autistic traits to idealize their characters. I replied, "Just find someone with autism, but don’t expect them to look like a movie star." He was stunned by my response and retorted, "Nobody wants a mentally ill girl." I told him the trope was simply a male fantasy, and that it was ableist to claim no one would want a partner on the spectrum.
Later that day, he posted on social media, implying I was a delusional feminist who saw problems in everything, including this trope. The post gained attention from strangers who agreed with his view. I felt humiliated and didn’t speak out on the topic for years-until others began to understand it too. This video serves as a form of validation for me.
23:07 "Men who have been fed the Stale White Wonderbread Boy mold. . ." 🤣 Brilliant!
Perfect aspect of turning fantasies into narratives take me always to the world of Phantom Thread or Like Crazy... You grow infatuated with what you percieved as different and unique as with Alma and Raynolds mutually, then becoming sick of each other give you a perfect view of stepping into the shoes of reality and dealing with every aspect of humanity of the other person would shake you and at the end to be "in love" still you choose to put shit in the middle and how that "vulnerability" would take you to that "comfort" zone to keep up with the endless circle of "waking up" and then being numb to it again.
Generally enjoy your video essays and find them incisive and this one is no exception. Appreciate that you tend to recognize gender as a social construct that tends to inform the camera and audiences' gazes, but sometimes get glimpses of an essentialism that accompanies this construct that I find myself wishing you would address more directly (your essay on *Valerie and Her Week of Wonders* moves in this direction from what I have seen of your collection). You are astute in asking why the manic pixie dream girl (who is always interesting even when she fails to be a character with a fully developed character) is interested in the stale white wonder bread boy to begin with. These films, most especially *Scott Pilgrim...*, tend to answer this question with: mpd girl has been screwed over by so many seemingly handsome/interesting love interests (who turn out to be shallow aggressive predators in one way or another) that swwb boy gains some appeal for her. While this scenario falls into the trope of the mpd girl and the plot that satisfies the wish fulfillments of the swwb boy and the frequently male writer who constructs him, I am curious if these tropes and plots have as much to do with human maturity as they do with gender? All of these plots (even the late blooming ones such as *Eternal Sunshine...*) are coming of age plots in which our protagonists and occasionally their love interests (if they are more developed characters like Clementine) tend to learn the human "trap" of sorts of projecting our own desires on to other people, which I wouldn't be inclined to gender. Gender affects the nature of these projections, perhaps, but recognizing this youthful tendency and growing past it to recognize the full humanity of our fellow subjects (in our subjectivity and agency) seems part of the lesson of the art that helps us (hopefully and in theory) to reach maturity and come of age. Perhaps the majority of this form of art is so gender coded that the lesson is lost and inflicts damage on its audiences. That is a very valid perspective, but I am curious if it is too cynical? Regardless, strong and thoughtful close reads and conclusions that open up (imo) an important conversation overall. Thanks for your work!
"The Stale White Wonderbread Boy" made me cackle. Good video!
Having colorful hair often gets people told that "you remind me of Ramona flowers"
I know bc Ive been told that
I feel like "perks of being a wallflower" is a more nuanced example. Like Charlie isnt just a stale self insert. He's an s/a victim trying to find himself again. And yes in a way Sam is a manic pixie, we do know things about her and id argue all the characters outside if Charlie are just there to help his journey of self discovery and healing
That seems to be a common consensus with Charlie! I only used footage of him bc Sam is so often in MPDG lists but it’s honestly far too long since I’ve seen the film in order to say if he is actually a SWWB, it seems as though he isn’t though!
@@FinalGirlStudios honestly id love to see your opinion on the film! It's a really good coming of age with very in depth characters
i feel like that's different and forgiveable though. because most often, stories are told from the perspective of one character only, and all the supporting characters are more narrative designs to support the main character's journey. and in that particular instance, because charlie is trying to deal with and process his trauma, i can forgive the rest of the story and it's characters revolving around him, because it's HIS story of healing, you know?
@@bottomofastairwell that's my point
you said exactly what i was thinking lol. perks isn't a manic pixie dream girl ya novel it's a story about a victim of sa.
Thank you for this.
I think much of the discourse around the trope seems to dismiss that there is any value to having this character archetype. But you have hit the nail on the head that the problem is not the archetype, but rather the way the archetype is explored. While the concept of a manic pixie dream girl is really a fantasy and does not exist outside of the imagination of lonely men, aspects of this archetype do, and certainly are embodied by real women and are still attractive. But in real life, one cannot ignore that these traits inevitably come with others that do not fit the archetype and should equally be accepted if one truly loves this person.
I say this as having been in love with several women that have these quirks and working out for myself what i could and could not accept in a partner that fall outside of the attractive qualities. That said, I ultimately married someone who still maintains some of these whimsical qualities, which i appreciate dearly, while accepting the many other traits that make her a serious and dependable partner.
In conclusion, I would just like to say that overly harsh dismissal of the trope, is also dismissive that the milquetoast boy should have any place in the world. We do exist and may need the coaxing of muses to inspire us to be interesting and complete men worthy of the love and attention of the women we want to attract.
In addition to what I have said above, i do understand that this trope has also lead to problematic male thinking aka the sigma males who feel unfulfilled and left out because they feel like they are ignored but entitled to the women of their dreams. And while I can partially attribute blame of this problem to idol culture and bad examples of this trope being used in fiction (especially in anime leaning heavily on harem and waifu tropes), i think it is up to every individual to sift through works of fiction and find the nuggets that can be applied to the real world. And hey, if you get it wrong, at least you tried and hopefully learned something you can use to have a more successful go at it next time around.
I feel like the manic pixie dream girl is what falling in love looks like to young straight men. It can feel dangerous, especially if we are getting to important ages, like our late twenties, when we are supposed to meet certain goals (like meeting the woman we will end up marrying.) When we meet her all that we know is that she is attractive to us physically. Lust like we see on the screen. Of course, this makes sense because we haven't met her yet. We may see her in the classroom, or across the room at a social even. We may try to catch her eye, or get her attention, find a reason to talk to her. We will try to read her signals and see if she gives us any nonverbal invitations to ask her to dinner or for a drink, with a friend or alone. At this point we start to learn a bit about her. She is exotic, and maybe if she is attracted to us too, she may be acting quirky because that is quite literally what attraction is: the brain getting high. It is like a self perpetuating cycle, with the attraction between two people making them take actions that will make them even more attractive to each other.
If our time spent with her on our dates are successful, then we enter the relationship phase and start to become an exclusive couple. For most couples this is when sex starts, which only reinforces how exotic she seems. We are slightly obsessed with her, and often can't wait to get out of class, or our job, to see her. Hopefully it is the same for her. The weeks and the months pass with significant time spent together. Then we start to see her flaws. She has a temper. She is always running late. She is always criticizing us, over seemingly every single thing we do. She expects us to do more for her, if not monetarily, then in our behaviors. She needs more commitment. Suddenly she doesn't take as much stock in our opinion. Her professional life becomes separate from her life with us and she often defends her job viciously. She may start spending more time with her friends, as our novelty wears off. A lot of the quirks we had that she used to love now turn her off. We are having less sex, and we may even take this personally, rather than seeing it as a natural biological phenomenon.
At this point, we might pull away. We're afraid that if she can change this much, maybe she could stop loving us all together and then what do we have? We would be back at square one. So we withdraw. We spend less time with her, we may snap at her, which will only make her more reticent to spend time with us. She may withdraw sex as a way to protect her self esteem and as a way to get us to behave, but if we are immature we will only pull away more seeing her removal of this vital need of ours as an affront to our person, rather than a defense of her own. There may be ugly fights. Ugly words are said, and feelings are hurt.
And that is our Hollywood story. What Hollywood doesn't show, however is for mature couples there is light at the end of the tunnel. We learn that she never actually left us, she just needed space to rediscover other sides to herself. She needed space to be an independent human being, so that she could fully love us. That real love is multi-faceted. Real women are flawed. They make mistakes all of the time. And she needed to have room to make mistakes. Real love can be boring. It lacks the luster and the flair of infatuation. It lacks the constant, hot sex, the flirting, and the mad highs. But what it makes up for this is the emotional depth. Loving someone for their qualities and their flaws. Letting her be who she is and loving her because of it, not in spite of it.
The manic pixie dream girl is women through the eyes of a man who hasn't yet lived.
they want the manic pixie dream girl, until she flips to the lethargic-depressed pixie nightmare girl :')
I hope more people use your phrase “stale white wonderbread boy” it’s so hilarious and captures exactly what they’re giving: little to nothing lmao
Me being manic pixie dream girl to my exes, finally meeting a great womderbread man that endlessly and has patiently supported me in the ways I need as I sought help for my mental health, we learned how to communicate and I constantly reflect upon myself, and we have been married for 5 years each year getting better ❤ having a partner that truly values and respects you is important, and valuing and respecting them even if they don’t ‘get’ whatever it is you are going through matters. Finding ways to support each other’s unique needs and keeping yourself and the other accountable. I’ve been through some of the rosters times in my life within the last 5 years, but have come out more healed at better for it. We are equal and I am thankful
Lol 3:46 your point still stands but it's funny you say that and then cut to orlando bloom.
When speaking of the male gaze and then using THAT SCENE from Pretty Baby was a gut punch! Lol. Well done
Harold and Maude...I would argue Maude is the purest form of the mpdg in purpose and character as her quirks aren't the result of anything but actually throwing off norms put upon her by culture and society. Her embrace of life in the face of opposition gives Harold a new perspective because she's more real than the constructed world he wants an escape from.
Im 50 and have been with my MPDG for 24 years. We've raised our MPDG daughter as well. It worked because we saw each other as human beings with respect and mutual growth beyond the trappings of the quirks.
I always hated the guys in these movies for not assuming the girl could ever "be his". The boys rarely grow and it's frustrating to watch. He can learn from her but she is in no way beholden to him nor responsible for him. Likewise her needs are rarely fulfilled by him. And her needs are a lot easier to meet if he just gets the hell out of his own damned head and sees her as a human.
i def had a mpdg phase. now u gave me a good excuse to watch these films, since most of them have been on my bucket list for years. great vid, ♡ from 🇦🇷.
I think the concept of manic pixie dream girl can work well if the other party was not a badboy/alpha male/abusive/narcissist/or toxic