In 1986, Frank Whittle was an adjunct professor who came to speak to a class that I was enrolled in. He talked for about an hour discussing: how, when and why he came up with the engine design concepts; issues he had trying to get support for his project, when support finally came and, later, how Rolls Royce was able to get a lot of the patents (He was not pleased). He had projector slides of the shop, engine testing, etc. He stated that he freely talked to the Germans in the 30's (and from my memory, they visited him to see the engine) saying it helped with their design. He made no claims about him or the Germans being the inventor. However, it was clear that he thought he provided the Germans important support and that had he been supported by his government, the engine would have been completed a lot earlier. (Not discussed was the fact that had the government supported him, his patent would have never been made public and been considered highly classified so the Germans would have never had the ability to use/see any of his work)
Absolutely rediculous nonsense! Whittle was exposed as a plagiarist, he had access to A.A. Griffiths technical paper published in 1926 while attending RAF Cranwell. Griffiths was also Cheif of Engine Development at the Royal Aircraft Establishment so Whittle had effectively sabotoged his own career before it had even started. Rolls-Royce was nationalized during WW2 and thus holds no patents related to Whittle engines. Never happened, both Whittle and von Ohain confirmed that neither man had any knowledge of the others work, a tertiary examination of the two engines reveals that they bear no resemblance to each other and are fundamentally different. Whittle certainly did not invent the jet engine, he was not the first to patent or achieve anything related to jet engine development... Whittle was only the fourth person to successfully demonstrate a working jet aircraft engine. Completely false, from the historical records we can confirm that Whittle would not begin any actual work on jet engines until he left Cambridge and moved to Rugby in 1936... this is 2 years after Hans von Ohain and Max Hahnn constructed the first prototype. Whittle's patent was invalid and he was forced to allow his patent to expire in 1935 or face legal action for infringing on Maxime Guillaume earlier patent filed in 1921. Whittle would never construct any engine based on this invalid patent nor would he ever construct an engine with a Axial compressor. Any questions?
What I originally wrote was my recollection of what Whittle personally said to the class in 1986. NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS. So far, you've called him an addict, plagiarist, fraud, embezzler and, pretty much, a total low-life. Have you considered/resolved that your attitude/feelings don't align with the awards and distinctions that Whittle received throughout his life as a result of his previous work on the jet many years earlier. Do me a favor, when you accuse someone of something. Provide some sources citation(s), OK? Providing the reader with this helps your argument For example: Here's an old documentary (ua-cam.com/video/G0T4-XG612Q/v-deo.html). At the 3 min mark, Whittle describes how he learned about turbines. (Spoiler Alert! It wasn't AA Griffiths) If you watch the entire video, you'll find more that touches on other areas that you dispute. Also, you wrote, "... from the historical records we can confirm that Whittle...". Who's the we? Now, can you provide citations? @@sandervanderkammen9230
@@jluntz423 All true, Whittle was an unlikely hero, a fictional character created by the British propaganda machine. Whittle was a prolific boaster and tireless self-promoter who refused to give credit to anyone who he stole or commandered from. Maxime Guillaume patented the turbojet aircraft engine (patent number 534.801) on May 3rd 1921 when a 14 year-old Frankie was still playing in the street in short pants. "Hospitalized for Nervous Exhaustion" is a polite 1940s code speak for drug rehab... Whittle was forced to go to rehab twice to avoid criminal charges. He was arrested for assaulting a young Rolls-Royce engineer and brandishing a gun during a meeting after a week long drinking bing fueled by drugs. And again when the Miles M.52 scandal broke. Whittle admitted in his own biography that he struggled with alcoholism and how it adversely effcted his career. A.A. Griffiths not only acused Whittle of plagiarism he proved it, Whittle had unknowningly transscribed a mathmatical error that Griffiths had corrected in subsequent revised editions... Whittle was given the original publication while attending Cranwell by Joseph Hancock. It's no coincidence Whittle's engineering career ended the same time as the Miles M.52 was cancelled. Whittles W.2/700.M.52 engine never produced the specifed thrust or completed a PFTR test, he had began demanding 10,000 pound cash payments to conduct tests which led to the investigation of Miles. When ministry officials and auditors raided Miles Aircraft no trace of the two M.52 prototype aircraft were found, only incomplete drawings and a partially completed wooden mock-up. Miles Aircraft were charged by the Crown court with 24 counts of fraud and embezzlement. I suggest you read 'Whittle, the TRUE Story' by John Golley and the infallible Bill Gunston.
Your replies have caused me to do some checking. I found "Whittle, the TRUE Story" but couldn't find a free online copy (because I am not totally vested in this issue one way or the other). I found another book, "Making Jets in World War II" by Giffard. It addresses Whittle, von Ohain and the process of invention (which I think is important to understand well) I don't know your background, but mine is not aerospace engineering. I do know something about steam and gas turbine engines (as a past user/operator and something I had to learn as part of my college education). I've always known that Whittle didn't come up with the concept of the turbine. Axial flow impulse and reaction steam turbines were in use well before 1900 with the centrifugal compressor in 1906. So, this addresses the basic forms of, both, Whittle and von Ohain's turbines. Both didn't invent that. It was the modifications required to identify and meet the design requirements including producing adequate thrust in an efficient manner that made them successful. Inventions - I think this story is closest to this issue... I knew someone who was a PhD candidate at Caltech in chemistry many years ago. His class was tasked to develop the necessary steps to develop a certain molecule. He was the only one successful in doing this. The professor ended up developing the processes to make it marketable. It made that prof a lot of money as this molecule was commercially valuable. When asked if the prof stole it, he replied he didn't care because he would have never developed it on his own and didn't care if the guy used his idea. I would also ask you to take a look at Guillaume's drawing to see if it is a viable candidate for a gas turbine. Does it have a crank starter? @@sandervanderkammen9230
@@jluntz423 Indeed, the concept of steam turbines dates back to at least 80 BC. One needs to make a clear distinction between *Rankine Cycle* Heat Engines and the *_Turbojet_* Which operates specifically on the *Brayton Cycle* even though the development of Brayton Cycle engines are not perfectly defined. The first practical examples are often _Combined Cycle_ applications. Alfred Büchi invented the first practical gas turbine Brayton Cycle engine called the *Turbocharger* in 1905, this operates as a Combined Cycle Brayton engine sharing it's Hot Reservoir with a Otto or Diesel engine. Jens Ægius-Elling demonstrated the first pure Brayton Cycle Gas Turbine engine in 1913. Büchi, working at Swiss company Brown, Boveri und Cie demonstrated the first production gas turbine engine as part of the Velox engine a Combined Cycle Rankine/Brayton powerplant boiler. It is demonstrated first in Berlin in 1932 and at the request of A.A. Griffiths is demonstrated at UMIST in Manchester in 1934. Griffiths helps negotiate a licensee agreement for Metropolitan-Vickers in 1935. The first gas turbine to be constructed in the UK is a BB&C Velox engine. What is still disputed _in Britain_ is who invented the TURBOJET. Whittle was not the first to patent, construct or demonstrate a Turbojet engine. His only rightful credit is being first in the UK, beating A.A Griffiths and Hayne Constant at Metropolitan-Vickers by Nearly 2 years. Whittle is the FOURTH person to successfully demonstrate a working air breathing jet propulsion aircraft engine on May 15th 1941, two years after von Ohain, and after Heinkel and Campini. FYI: You were not looking at the actual drawings of Guillaume's 1921 patent. In 1921 France still required (like many countries) applications to include an actual sample, or scale model of the design to be patented, the sample was drawn by the file clerks and returned to the applicant if practical. Guillaume included a tiny hand crank on his scale model entirely for demonstration purposes, the hand crank is not part of the actual engine design, which like Whittle's invalid 1930 patent design was never actually constructed. Any questions?
@@user6008 Maxuime Guillaume was the first to patent the turbojet engine in 1921... 9 years before Whittle. Von Ohain built and flight tested in the first jet aircraft.
Sander Van der Kammen , I do believe they classifi his as an impulse engine ? Worked on a slightly different affect ? Combustion over a leading edge ? So apparently one and only engine and plane of this type ever !
Whittle wasn't a physicist but a pilot who wanted a faster powerplant. He's talked about the progression of thought that led him to "upping the compression ratio", etc that led to the idea. He virtually became a physicist trying to realize that. Funny that no one up to that time had thought of the concept, but that after Whittle's patent was made public amazingly a German physicist ( the perfect person to hand the concept off to) was assigned to, excuse me dream't of the concept, developed it. Nobody like a physicist to dream about flying and how to go faster to come up with a mechanical concept. Right.
Frank Whittle was not the first to patent a turbojet engine... Maxime Guillaume patented the turbojet engine in 1921 when Whittle was still a lad wearing short pants.
The Jumo 004a (not the 004b)..had a service life of 200-250 hrs ...the limitation of the engine was down to materials shortage and not the design or construction. Further, it could be swapped out in 2hrs - unlike a spit engine which too 48hrs
+spottydog4477 Yes they were. They were an evolutionary dead end, superseded by British designs. No engine today traces it's history back to the German jets. Every engine produced today is related to Frank Whittle's designs.
+spottydog4477 France built its fighter jet industry based on BMW 003 ..Dassault ,the most successful pioneer in Europe didn’t even consider British technology..germans were miles ahead ...
Who ever invented the jet it is only a development of previous ideas & technology To be improved on by future designers & engineers that is the great thing about Education.
I think you will find that Hans is on record as saying he was was prompted to follow his research because of the whittle 1929 patent and if you want to abusive about us brits criticise the fact that the idiots in government were stupid enough not to realise how important Whittles work would be and put that patent into the public domain. Criticise Griffith who completely rubbished a young students work because it overshadowed his own unsuccessful efforts. The important thing is Whittle not only solved the jet engine problem he knew what it should be used for, high altitude commercial passenger planes and that was in 1930.
That argument has been tried before... but the facts are irrefutable. Frank Whittle was not the first to patent the turbojet engine nor was he the first to produce a successful jet engine. Whittle is only credited with being the first in the U.K. and was only the fourth person to develop a successful flightworthy jet.
Frank Whittle did not make many friends at the RAE, his first blunder was plagerizing A.A.Griffiths 1926 paper on axial compressor turboshaft engines. Griffiths also exposed the fact Whittle lacked a functional understanding of the complex aerodynamics required in the design of compressors and turbines. Whittle demanded that the government provide the experts that he needed and retain full control and credit for the design. It was Adrian Lombard and Stanley Hooker who were the real genius behind Britain's jet engine program.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Oh Sandy honey, I see you are still trying to tout your crap. Just let me remind you of what Ohain himself said- "The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..."
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Sandyboy, my little friend, It's been a year and more and you still haven't provided any evidence to back up your lying waffle about Whittle. We can take it now that your claims were just sad little wehraboo lies can't we.
Mark Hepworth When the allies took over the German design offices, they found translations of Whittle's patents in every desk. The Americans have perpetuated the myth that the Germans were ahead to hide their technical embarrassment in WW2.
John Burns Completely bullshit. You see... this is the Whittle propaganda. You are searching for a way to explain that Ohain didn’t invented the jet engine.
@@bekluwe You only have to look as far as Ohain's own words- "The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..."
Not the Usual Whittle propaganda? Try some historical facts for a change: von Ohain not only ran an engine 6 months AFTER Whittle in September 1937 but contrary to popular belief, he had thoroughly read and critiqued Whittle's patents by 1935 a full 2 years before he built and ran his own engine. Margaret Conner in her book "Elegance In Flight" (Hans von Ohain: Elegance in Flight (Reston, Virginia: American Institute for Aeronautics and Astronautics,Inc.), 2001) describes how Ohain's "..Patent attorney happened upon a Whittle patent in the years that the von Ohain patents were being formulated" (I.e PRIOR to 1935) VON OHAIN'S own words demonstrate prior knowledge which invalidates the claim that von Ohain was unaware of Whittle’s work. VON OHAIN: “We felt it looked like a patent of an idea. You find many idea patents. For an invention it is not necessary that you build it." "We thought that is was not seriously being worked on."''VON OHAIN himself is quoted as saying "We felt that it looked like a patent of an idea" "we thought that it was not seriously being worked on." Want more? ''VON OHAIN: Our patent claims had to be narrowed in comparison to Whittle’s because Whittle showed certain things."'' (clearly this was during the preparation of his patent that was later filed in 1935). VON OHAIN: '"When I saw Whittle’s patent I was almost convinced that it had something to do with boundary layer suction combinations. It had a two-flow, dual entrance flow radial flow compressor that looked monstrous from an engine point of view. Its flow reversal looked to us to be an undesirable thing, but it turned out that it wasn't so bad after all though it gave some minor instability problems. '
***** David, I appreciate your considered and measured reply.Perhaps the weakness of your posting comes from failure to acknowledge that Von Ohain did not copy whittle design and was already researching his own engine DESPITE reading whilltes work...The little He176 which flew with his motor was independent, original and worked first!
spottydog4477 Hi Spottydog, I just rechecked my statement and I didn't say that von Ohain copied Whittle's engine. I said he had read and critiqued and also changed his patent as a result. This is something usually denied by commentators but is historical fact. It is not necessary to make this a nationalistic competition as several here have. The historical facts speak for themselves. The 'development' of von Ohain's engine was independent as they both worked in secrecy but you cannot fairly say as many people do that he was unaware of Whittle's work or that he was not influenced by it as by his own words, he had to change his patent after reviewing Whittle's designs... When Capt Eric 'Winkle' Brown interviewed von Ohain's team at the end of the was (Brown was fluent in German, a world leading test pilot and employed in operation PaperClip to recover German technology - Ohain's key people (Like Gundermann) were quite open about referring to Whittles drawings and patents as they developed the developed the engine.) He certainly would have been helped by having several patents to look at with all of their formulae and details. This is not to take anything away from von Ohain. Any professional academic always researches all of the available designs before commencing their own work. (much as car companies do today when designing new models) It is absolutely true that his engine flew first primarily because of Heinkel's backing and facilities and of course the HE-178 and von Ohain and Heinkel deserve all the credit they get for flying an engine first but again, the historical record shows that Whittle ran his engine 6 months before von Ohain unlike what some commentators here claim.. Had Whittle had similar he would have flown some time earlier than he did. From an engineering standpoint, Whittle's engine was also considerably more advanced in concept that von Ohain's, using an axial turbine instead of a radial inflow one. It was also an order of magnitude more reliable than the German axial engines which is why it was so successful. When some on this page hear this they think it is some kind of attack on von Ohain but the facts don't attack. They are just facts and verifiable. It is not necessary to make this a nationalistic competition as several here have. In the long term, Whittle's contribution was far more significant than von Ohain's. This is easily and objectively measurable by looking at the post war influence of each man's design. Whittle engines pioneered the turboprop (Trent, Dart,Tyne.Proteus) and went on to power dozens of military and civilian aircraft types from the US, UK, Soviet Union, France, Argentina, China, Sweden and more* and many are still flying today. * (See a list I found and cross checked below) The principles of his designs (centrifugal compressor and reverse flow) are still used in most modern turbo-props and small scale gas turbines. Von Ohain's engine while a significant achievement, was a technological dead end and was never put into production. There are no known derivatives of his engine that I can find. I hope this was helpful but I think I will leave now as some people here don't want to discuss history and science, they want to invent or relive an alternate version of reality and you can't win with people like that... * RR Nene - Armstrong Whitworth AW.52, Avro Ashton, Boulton Paul P.111, Boulton Paul P.120, Canadair CT-133, Dassault Ouragan, de Havilland Vampire (Australian FB-35) FMA IAe 33 Pulqui II, Handley Page HP.88, Hawker P.1052, Hawker P.1081,Hawker Sea Hawk, Nord 2200, SNCAC NC 1080, SNCASO SO.4000, SCASO SO.6000 Triton Sud-Est Grognard, Sud-Ouest Bretagne, Sud-Ouest Triton, Supermarine Attacker. Sud-Est SE 535 Mistral (French Nene Vampire) GE J-31 Lockheed P-80,Bell P-59 Airacomet, Ryan FR Fireball --- Allison J-33- Convair XF-92, Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star, Lockheed T-33 Shooting Star, Lockheed F-94A / F-94B Starfire--- Pratt & Whitney J42 (Nene) - Grumman F9F Panther, --- RR Tay (Upgraded Nene licenced as P&W J-48) Grumman F9F-5 Panther, Grumman F9F-6/-8 Cougar, Lockheed F-94C Starfire, North American YF-93, Klimov Vk-1 (Nene copy) MiG-15 , MiG-17, Il-28 'Beagle'. (Plus thousands of Chinese variants of these aircraft) --- RR Derwent - Avro 707, Avro Canada C102 Jetliner,, Fairey Delta 1, Fokker S.14 Machtrainer, Gloster Meteor, RD500 (Derwent copy) Lavochkin La-15, Raduga KS-1 Komet, Yakovlev Yak-23, Yakovlev Yak-25, Yakovlev Yak-30, Yakovlev Yak-1000, Nord 1601, FMA I.Ae. 27 Pulqui I Also aircraft using the RR Dart which was descended from the Trent the first flying turboprop: Armstrong Whitworth AW.660 Argosy: Avro 748, Breguet Alizé: Anti-submarine aircraft: Fairchild F-27: Fairchild Hiller FH-227, Fokker F27: Grumman Gulfstream I, Handley Page Dart Herald: Hawker Siddeley Andover: NAMC YS-11: Convair 600, Convair 640, Vickers Viscount Whittle spent a lot of time working with Lord Hive's team at RR helping them to develop these engines from his designs.I think anyone would agree that this is a pretty impressive list. Again no hyperbole. Just let the facts speak for themselves. Have a good day.
The real doktorbimmer '' Von Ohain built his first prototype in 1934.... before Whittle AA Griffiths also critiqued Whittles 1930 patent... he was equally unimpressed with the design. Whittle himself soon realized the design was fatally flawed as he never attempted to built the design himself... not even a model was ever constructed. Whittle was not the first to patent the jet engine... so you are making certain assumptions here based on a false notion'' Trolls will never learn doktorbimmer !
barracuda7018 nah... its not their fault really, the problem is the nationalist bastards that try to change history by leaving out all the facts... Whittle was the first to build a jet engine... in the UK. The problem is when you forget the UK is not the world.....
*Thanks to the "Information Age" we can finally lay to rest the false propaganda myth the Frank Whittle invented the jet engine... the irrefutable facts prove that Whittle was not the first to achieve anything related to the development of turbojet engines.*
Just the unvarnished truth - Frank Whittle patented the jet engine in 1930. His patents were published in the British newspapers, which were read by German spies. Hans Von Ohain read and saw Whittles work and ran with it... Von Ohain built the very first operational jet engine in 1937. However, Frank Whittle's engine built the very same year would not become operational until 1941. But the fact of the matter is Frank Whittle's axial Flow engine was sound, it worked. Whereas the German's never did build reliable jet engines during WWII. Therein lies the rub. Whittle had a fully functional jet engine, the Germans did not which severely limited their ability to keep jet fighters in combat. Nevertheless after the war Frank Whittle and Hans Von Ohain became good friends and deeply respected the accomplishments of each other.
Spies didnt steal anything -whittles patents were in the public domain = dumb ass Germans didnt copy whittle centrifugal engine (which was obsolete by 1947) - dumb ass
Whittle was not the first to patent the turbojet and did build or test first... Maxuime Guillaume patented the turbojet in 1921, 9 years before Whittle.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Good morning Sandyboy dear. So let's consider what Pabst von Ohain had to say on this issue.- "The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle." Go with Guillaume if you want Sandy honey and go tell Spottydog4477 that he's wrong and Pabst von Ohain isn't the father of the jet engine.
The earliest attempts at airbreathing jet engines were hybrid designs in which an external power source first compressed air, which was then mixed with fuel and burned for jet thrust. In one such system, called a thermojet by Secondo Campini
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Ohain's design, described by himself as- "...consisting of radial outflow compressor rotor, combustor, radial inflow turbine, and a central exhaust thrust nozzle" is NOT a design used today. Ohain himself says of Whittle's design- "The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..." Further he says of Whittle- "From the beginning of his jet propulsion activities, Frank Whittle had been seeking means for improving the propulsive efficiency of turbojet engines. ¶ He conceived novel ideas for which he filed a patent application in 1936, which can be called a bypass engine or turbofan. To avoid a complete new design, Whittle sought an interim solution that could be merely "tacked on" to a jet engine. This configuration was later known as the aft fan. Whittle's work on fan jets or bypass engines and aft fans was way ahead of his time. It was of greatest importance for the future or turbopropulsion."
Whittle invented the centrifugal flow jet engine and Ohain invented the axial flow jet engine in universal use today.After the war Hans went to work for Pratt and Whitney designing jet engines.
Robert Jonasson The axial compressor was first demonstrated in England, the Germans were the first to get a production model running. While the Allies used centrifugal compressors because they were more reliable and better understood at the time. That’s part of the reason why the ME262 had to have entirely new engines every few hours. Axial jet technology wasn’t ready. It’s yet another example of the Nazis pouring scarce resources into on paper war-winning weapons using technology that wasn’t ready. The father, as we know it, of the turbo jet was British inventor Frank Whittle. Long story short, the British defense ministry rejected Frank Whittle’s design in part due to reviewing engineers at Armstrong-Whitworth pointing out, correctly as it turns out, that a turbo jet engine would be fundamentally inefficient. Instead Whittle patented the design, and not being top secret, the concept greatly influenced the Nazi design team led by Hans Ohain. Engineers at Armstrong-Whitworth, drawing upon their criticism of the Whittle concept, began development of the first axial-flow turbojets and the first turboprops. And it is this technology family that led directly to today’s turbofan jet engine. The Whittle design proceeded in private development, eventually being taken over by Rolls-Royce. By 1944, the Armstrong-Whitworth design developed higher thrust with superior throttle control, and the Powerjet/ Rolls- Royce centrifugal flow turbojet has proven itself to be far more reliable than the competing Nazi jet projects, the Jumbo 004 and the BMW 003. Steel is the wrong material from which to build jet engines. Given time, steel will always fail. It fails because the iron in steel sublimates out of the alloy, essentially turning the metal to Swiss cheese on a microscopic level. The general term for such long term metal fatigue is “creep.” In the 1940’s, no one knew that steel would inevitably fail given the temperatures and pressures in jet engines. The correct material that makes jet engines actually practical, and not simply impossible, is nickel alloy, which was a British invention, designed by the British jet design teams. There is no indication that the Nazi design teams ever understood that steel was never going to work, no matter how much they modified their design. The fact that nickel alloys were the solution was not at al intuitively obvious and the Nazis weren’t doing much in the way of R&D to discover the problem. The Nazis two major production jet engines never managed to last more than 25 hours. You can’t win a war when you have to replace, not merely one but two engines, the most critical and expensive component of an aircraft, every few hours. The icing on the cake is that the Nazis didn’t have access to sufficient quantities of nickel, courtesy of theRoyal Navy blockade, even if they somehow discovered that steel was never going to work.
I cannot see how Von Ohain can possibly be credited as an inventor of the jet engine?? It is an undeniable fact that the German government bought six copies of Whittle's patent from the British Patents Office in 1934 and distributed them throughout Germany.This is a matter of public record. At the end of the war, copies of Whittle's patents were found in almost every German lab. Whilst under interrogation by the Americans, Von Ohain himself remained tight lipped but his colleagues including Wilhelm Gunderman admitted that they persistently referred to Whittle's patents. I do not deny that Von Ohain might have had a more advanced design (let down though by inferior German metallurgy - the British engines could go five times longer between overhaul. The ME 262 engines had to be virtually rebuilt every few hours) but he cannot be regarded as the inventor. The first person to come up with the idea is the inventor. Otherwise, I co-invented the rocket, satellite, television etc. etc. etc.
Its an undeniable fact that you are a lonely drooling idiot who lives in his own fantasy world in which you get to define reality. If Germans had copied Whittle's patent, Heinkel 178 would have crashed in 1939 !!!!! The fiction you posted has been debunked decades ago ...
Barracuda 7018 - We have not communicated before but thank you so much for your usual erudite contribution to what has become a rather disappointing discussion. It is an undeniable fact (to coin a phrase) that you need to be pointed in the direction of the nearest psychiatrist since your grip on reality is non-existent. You and one or two others on here are simply trolls who are deluding themselves and trying to rewrite recorded history. None of what I said originally has been debunked at all. I note that as usual you are unable to produce sources to back up your infantile ravings. If you did your research properly, you wouldn't need to make up your partisan little stories designed to assuage your nationalist feelings. Shouldn't you be in bed by now??
So, you British that won’t see that Ohain invented it, be proud of Whittle because you‘ll never had or will have such an important person for history of flying such as Otto Lilienthal. He made flying possible. He was the first to successfully with a machine which was havier than air.
Lets not forget Ferdinand von Zeppelin, he invented the first powered passenger aircraft in history... and the World's first commercial passenger airline.
The problem for you Klumpy old chap is that it's not just the British that won't see that Ohain invented it, It's Ohain himself that doesn't see that he invented it. "The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..." That's a quote of Hans von Ohain's own words from his foreword to 'Elements of Propulsion, Gas turbines and Rockets'.
After reading some comments, I have to add a few items. 1. The presentation was pre-internet. 2. The audience of the class was small (~15 students) so there was a lot of open discussion. 3. Whittle appeared to be very forthright about any aspect of his work. 4. He displayed no negative feelings about the Germans... only the british gov't... I thought he moved to the Maryland for that reason.
Whittle was at the center of one of the most shameful and humiliating scandals in British history, when the Miles M.52 scandal broke in January 1946, Frank Whittle was removed from Power Jets Ltd by the Ministry and discharged from the RAF amid allegations of bribery, embezzlement and derilection of duty. He was exiled to a drug rehab in America for treatment of amphetmine, benzodiazepine addiction and alcoholism. Whittle was disgraced, black-balled and never returned to work as an aerospace engineer in Britain, he would remain in exile in America for the remainder of his life.
Interesting. Can you give a link that describes the scandal with more detail? I found some negative stuff about drug addiction and M.52's abrupt cancellation but no details. I also read that he was knighted and medically retired as an air commodore (1 star general) two years later. I will say that none of this takes away from his (or Ohain's) imagination, intelligence and hard work to create his engine. I also read that Whittle & Ohain occasionally lectured together and that each respected the other's work and there was no mention of them communicating with each other until after the war... in that regard, I will retract that portion as I could have easily misremembered or misunderstood what Whittle said. @@sandervanderkammen9230
@@jluntz423The new Labour government was already deeply embroiled with the Bank of England scandal and the collapse of the British economy... there was no interest in dragging itself into the Miles scandal. It's primarily goal was to give the Americans some ressemblance of control and order to negotiate more favorable surrender terms with the Americans, by the time the Anglo-American bailout mortgage agreement was signed in July the Miles M.52 scandal had blown over.
The war was over 78 years ago, now that we live in the _Information Age_ we can final dispense with the old, false propaganda myths and revisionist history that Whittle invented the jet engine. Whittle was not the first to achieve anything related to jet development and was only the fourth person to successfully demonstrate a working jet aircraft engine.. He is rightfully credited to be the _"first in the UK"_ ...nothing more. The real genius of the British jet program were genuine heroes like, Adrian Lombard Stanley Hooker Hayne Constant and A.A.Griffiths
Margaret Conner in her book "Elegance In Flight" (Hans von Ohain: Elegance in Flight (Reston, Virginia: American Institute for Aeronautics and Astronautics,Inc.), 2001) describes how Ohain's "patent attorney happened upon a Whittle patent in the years that the von Ohain patents were being formulated". von Ohain himself is quoted as saying "We felt that it looked like a patent of an idea" "we thought that it was not seriously being worked on." (he was wrong) As Ohain's patent was not filed until 1935 this evidence clearly shows that he had read Whittle's patent and had even critiqued it some 2 years before his own engine ran. ''VON OHAIN: Our patent claims had to be narrowed in comparison to Whittle’s because Whittle showed certain things."'' (clearly this was during the preparation of his patent that was later filed in 1935). ''"When I saw Whittle’s patent I was almost convinced that it had something to do with boundary layer suction combinations. It had a two-flow, dual entrance flow radial flow compressor that looked monstrous from an engine point of view. Its flow reversal looked to us to be an undesirable thing, but it turned out that it wasn't so bad after all though it gave some minor instability problems. This demonstrates prior knowledge which invalidates the claim that von Ohain was unaware of Whittle’s work. Von Ohain’s own statements then continue and upon reviewing Whittle’s patent, he offers his own critique. “We felt it looked like a patent of an idea. You find many idea patents. For an invention it is not necessary that you build it." "We thought that is was not seriously being worked on."'' OOOPS.... Maybe step father is more appropriate.
Complete Aerogeek R/R dumped the centrifugal engine by .47 in favour of the German AXIAL flow design..then the world never looked back...Ohains Axial flow design was completely different from whittles.....
spottydog4477 Mr Dog, the depth of your ignorance is truly impressive! von Ohain's engine had a centrifugal compressor and a centrifugal (radial inflow) turbine. Axial engines were first designed (but not built by) Guillaume and A.A Griffiths in the 1920s. Whittle's first patent showed a 2 stage axial compressor feeding a single stage centrifugal one. Anselms axial Jumo followed Gyorgy Jendrassik successfully running a test engine in 1938 and his axial turboprop in 1940.. So much for axial's being 'a German invention'. As for RR 'dumping' the centrifugal engine you are clearly sniffing something you shouldn't. RR produced over 7,000 Darts ( a 2 stage centrifugal engine) quite a number of which are still in service. While RR naturally moved on with developing and axial engine as it was slimmer and higher compression could be gained, the Nene, Derwent, Goblin and Ghost were produced by the thousands, some models even being licenced US and other countries. The USSR and China also produced many thousands of unlicensed copies for aircraft such as the MiG 15/17, the IL-28 and more. The MiG 15 had a performance advantage in climb and ceiling over the Sabre while powered by a Nene copy. Finally, many modern turboprop engines have centrifugal compressors and the ubiquitous PT-6 has an axial/centrifugal compressor just as Whittle designed it in 1929. You know there is a thing called Google and you can actually look this stuff up before you open your mouth and look like a baboon on the net...
spottydog4477 Axial flow engine concept was first pioneered by Maxime Guillaume in France, few years later the Brit A.A.Griffith copied the idea and completed a study about it in 1926.. It was the Germans WHO built the first axial flow engines.. But it was not Von Ohain, it was H.Wagner and Dr. Anselm Franz, the father of all jet engines we fly today. Pls ignore this Aerogeek Troll ... wiki.scramble.nl/index.php/Snecma_Atar When the war ended in 1945, Germans were miles ahead of any country in jet propulsion technology. The French went straight to BMW after the war,they were never interested in Whittle's outdated concepts. www.artefactsconsortium.org/Publications/PDFfiles/Vol3Trans/3.04.Transport-Lyth,JetEnginesGrPics75ppiWEBF.pdf Some statements from its content: However, it was in the 1930s that the principles of its operation were first studied and understood. Until that time noone conceived of an aircraft power plant as being anything other than a sophisticated internal combustion engine, a technology borrowed from automobile engineering. The two figures credited with first seeing the potential of jets are the Englishman Frank Whittle and the German Hans von Ohain. 4 Whittle's patent for a turbojet engine was registered in 1930, so there is some basis for seeing him as the father of the jet. However, because there was a six-year delay before \X'hittle's ideas gained acceptance, the Englishman was overtaken by Ohain, who had begun a fruitful collaboration with the Heinkel aircraft company and who ran a static test of his first engine in 1935. From this time onwards, the endeavours of Whittle and Ohain proceeded neck-and neck, although they worked independently in Britain and Germany and were unaware of the other's progress. In 1937 Whittle ran the first test of his engine, theW1, but two years later Ohain's He-S8B engine powered the world's first jet-propelled flight in the Heinkel He-178aircraft. Whittlehadtowaituntil1941untilhisWI engine powered the first British jet aircraft, the Gloster E28/39 (Figure 1), by which stage another Heinkel, the He-280, was flying with two Ohain He-S8A jet engines.s By 1944 both the British and the Germans had jet-propelled fighters in operational use: the Gloster Meteor, with a developed version of the \X'hittle jet, known as the Rolls-Royce Derwent, and the Messerschmitt Me-262, with Junkers Jumo 004 jets. By the end of the war the Germans had at least three separate fullscale company-based jet engine programmes in progress, as American and British interrogators discovered to their astonishment in the summer of 1945. Ohain's original test engine, the He-S3B, had been built for simplicity with a centrifugal compressor like Whittle's, but Heinkel had then proceeded to more advanced designs like the He-S30 with axial-flow compressors. Meanwhile at Junkers, Germany's leading engine maker, Anselm Franz had led the development of the Jumo 004, a simpler axial-flo~ turbojet, which went into ma~s production and powered the Me-262 fighter. A third programme at BMW produced the Bramo 003 engine, which featured a counterrotating compressor, different from both the Jumo 004 and the Heinkel He-S30. Ultimately it was this Heinkel design, incorporating both rotors and stators, which became the standard configuration for commercial jet engines.6 On this evidence it is clear that the Germans were decisively ahead in the field by the spring of 1945 PAGE -82-83 There is not much doubt that had Germany not been defeated it would have led the world in jet engine development in both the military and civil sectors And the above article was written by a Brit...LOL ..
spottydog4477 You are welcome mate ! We should stick to the facts instead of Margaret Conner's anecdotal "Elegance In Flight" LOL www-diva.eng.cam.ac.uk/theses/endwall-film-cooling-in-axial-flow-turbines Another iron clad proof that Maxime Guillaume pioneered the axial flow concept. This time a PhD Dissertation from CAMBRIDGE.. The ideas and concepts of gas turbines and jet propulsion were not new. One of the earliest known examples of jet propulsion was given ~2000 years ago by Hero of Alexandria, who demonstrated the principle by revolving a bronze sphere using steam jets. Jet propulsion was also known to the Chinese, who used the principle thousands of years ago in fireworks rockets. At the beginning of this century, René Lorin (1908) and Henri-Fabrice Melot (1917) suggested using the exhaust gases of a combustion engine for propulsion. The first ideas and suggestions for a gas turbine engine for aircraft propulsion came from Maxime Guillaume in 1921. Fig. 1 is from his patent which was granted in 1922 and shows the main components of such an engine with a multistage axial compressor, combustion chamber, fuel injection, axial turbine and starter. French Patent N. 534801 for a Gas Turbine Granted to Maxime Guillaume in 1922.. Frank Whittle and Hans Joachim Pabst von Ohain are credited with being the first to use gas turbines for aircraft propulsion. Independently and without knowing of each other they developed aircraft gas turbines. Their test engines ran and produced thrust for the first time in the spring of 1937. On 27. August 1939 a Heinkel He 178 aircraft used this engine to make the first ever flight powered by an aircraft gas turbine. Whittle’s developments resulted in the W-1 engine, which first flew on 15. May 1941 in a Gloster E 28/29 aircraft. When the war ended in May 1945, the motherfucker Brits didn't have a single axial flow engine in operation .. ' I always said Von Ohain not only designed the first Turbojet but also run one before Whittle.. Here you have the confirmation one more time Whittle was the father of the turbojet?? of course he was but step father !
"Meanwhile Dr von Ohain (www.aircraftenginedesign.com/custom.html3.html) , after studying physics and applied mechanics at Gottingen University, had in 1935 patented his proposal, which like Whittle's original patent of 1930, featured both axial and centrifugal compressors. In later years von Ohain denied that he knew anything of Whittle's patent but his colleague DiplIng Wilmhelm Gundermann, who worked with him at Heinkel from the beginning of April 1936 recorded _'We kept fully up-to-date with such patents as Whittles."_ Both now set about building engines, von Ohain with the help of Max Hahn and financial support from Ernst Heinkel (en.wikipedia.org.wiki/Ernst_Heinkel) whose company he joined in 1936, and Whittle by contracting parts to various companies, particularly the steam-turbine maker British Thompson-Houston. Both successfully ran their engines in 1937, Whittle in April and *von Ohain some 3 months later.* Heinkel now designed and built an aircraft to test von Ohain’s engine, the HE 178 which first flew on 27th August 1939, but which was abandoned after only 3 flights." www.frankwhittle.co.uk/content.php?act=viewDoc&docId=7&docFatherId=1&level=sub Even for a test engine a flight worthiness certificate was needed in the UK, so an engine was not put in a plane. Also they knew the engine had a lot to go so not worth it, as it would just waste time.
@@bekluwe Frank Whittle patented both centrifugal and axial flow engines, Ohain copied Whittles patents making a centrifugal engine but it went nowhere. Germany adopted axial flow rather than Ohain`s failure. Whittle realized that centrifugal was easier and it worked. Metropolitan Vickers went ahead with axial flow R&D being well ahead of the Germans. Rolls Royce took on Whittle's design improving it,. The USA got Whittle's designs, post war France tried to make the BMW jet engine work properly and reliable wasting years while Arnstrong Siddeley went ahead with the Metropolitan design. RR made the Derwent and Nene, RR then made the excellent axial-flow Avon, taking nothing from German failures. The USSR tried to get the German Jumo to work but gave up when they got the RR Nene, Czechoslovakia were given some me 262's by the Soviets after WW2, they dropped the plane quite soon. All modern jet engines owe their existence to the British designs and not the German failures.
Frank Whitttle was already working on his design in the late 1920s and openly Patented the design in 1930, a full seven years before Ohhain's design ran.
Yes, have a look at Wikipedia. BTW I know his son, Ian Whittle, quite well. He was a pilot for Cathay Pacfici in Hong Kong, where I lived for 27 years. Not sure what you mean by "the aircraft" but the Wright brothers flew a powered plane in 1903. A decade was a massive time in aviation development.
carlos perry Please consider 1904 are Aircraft Day (Wright Brothers). Ever hear of WWI (1914 - 1918)? There were 10s of thousands of aircraft flying around. You live in a world of Tribal Mythology man!
+Leif Vejby The first known description of a gas (steam) turbine (Aeolipile) was by the Greek mathematician Hero of Alexandria in the 1st Century AD. In 1551 Tariq al-Din described a steam turbine. In 1629 the Italian Giovanni Branca followed suit. In 1648 John Wilkins of England also. In 1884 Parsons produced the first steam turbine. Steam is a gas remember. Englishman John Barber patented the first gas turbine powered by gas other than steam in 1791.
+Leif Vejby As a late-comer who evidently hasn't read the previous posts that's a bit rich coming from you. The fact is an Englishman patented the first gas (i.e. using gas combustion rather than steam) turbine in 1791. The first. Pertinent to the discussion to all but a fuckwit.
noonsight2010 Relax, I am just amused by the fact that people are discussing who invented the gas turbine, and only discuss von Ohain and Whittle, and not the people who came before those them.
O'Hain was never the father of the jet engine . That accolade lies firmly with Sir Frank Whittle . O'Hains HS 1 engine was a dismal copy of Whittles WU and only flew twice and was never developed further . O'Hain was given a copy of Whittles 1930 patent and copied it "badly"
now history properly frank whittle had the first working turbo jet engine Germans did not that's a fact please don't believe armchair bullshiters like what I've seen on here very sad
von Ohain’s jet ran fully under its own power about 2 months before Whittles. When von Ohain met Whittle the German gave Whittle credit because Whiitles ran on kerosine having solved the combustion problems first whereas the German used hydrogen. It’s worth noting that von Ohain also used a centrifugal compressor, not only that they used a “centrifugal gas turbine” which is properly called a “radial inflow turbine” because of the self matching properties. The combustion problems of the German engines were solved by a Mac Hahn, the garage mechanic with 400 patents on welding torches. At that point the German Air Ministry threw enormous resources into axial engines because of their lower drag although Heinkel continued with centrifugals and a hybrid type called the Head 012. Britain focused on the centrifugal because of its greater controllable nature and Lower weight but paid a price in airframe integration. The meteor engines had to be shifted from underslung to middle of the wing with 3 navel modifications and thrust increases. The Americans showed the way by burying the engine in the aircraft thereby negating the air drag issue from large diameter engines. This rapidly lead to the nene that was then scaled down to create the Derwent V. Thus although the British engines were better the airframe integration issues they created delayed the British aircraft until a combination of last longer nacels and more power overcame it.
But still whittle was the first to get one tested and working but not on it's own power. Hans Von Ohain's model was the second to be tested but his was the first self contained model and the first to get into the air. Franks would have been the first if his fellow brits had taken him seriously from the start.
Just read the first lines of the Frank Whittle Wikipedia entry and you’ll find out what is true. Spoiler: he didn’t invented it. And I saw some comments were it is said that Ohain admitted it. But where are the proofs for this?
The proof of what Ohain said is in his foreword to 'Elements of Propulsion, Gas turbines and Rockets'. From page 15- "The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..."
Whittle and von Ohain are both credited with the invention. However von Ohain was the first to built one. The concept of the jet engine had been around for ages before Whittle and Ohain was the first to realize it. Ohains concept wasn’t just the first working but also the most widely used today. The myth that Ohain knew about Whittle is completely wrong. They both worked independently. Every country has its inventor for everything: Thomas Newcomen didn’t invent the steam engine. It was the French Denis Papin after he fled to Prussia in the late 17th century. Alexander Graham Bell or Antonio Meucci didn’t invented the telephone, it was the German Phillip Reis who invented it in 1859. „Das Pferd frisst frisst keinen Gurkensalat“ (A horse doesn‘t eat cucumber salad) were the first words to be spoken through a telephone. The computer also wasn’t invented by Charles Babbage or Konrad Zuse. It was invented by the German Wilhelm Schickard almost three centuries earlier.
Also television wasn’t invented by Baird. It was invented by Ferdinand Braun in the 1890s and the 1900s for which he got the Nobel Price for Physics in 1909.
@@bekluwe Here's what Hans von Ohain himself had to say in his foreword to 'Elements of Propulsion, Gas Turbines and Rockets'- "The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..." and "In April 1937, Whittle had his bench-test jet engine ready for the first test run. It ran excellently; however, it ran out of control because liquid fuel had collected inside the engine and started to vaporize as the engine became hot, thereby adding uncontrolled fuel quantities to the combustion process. The problem was easily overcome. This first test run was the world's first run of a bench-test jet engine operating with liquid fuel (Fig. 7)." and "From the beginning of his jet propulsion activities, Frank Whittle had been seeking means for improving the propulsive efficiency of turbojet engines. ¶ He conceived novel ideas for which he filed a patent application in 1936, which can be called a bypass engine or turbofan. To avoid a complete new design, Whittle sought an interim solution that could be merely "tacked on" to a jet engine. This configuration was later known as the aft fan. Whittle's work on fan jets or bypass engines and aft fans was way ahead of his time. It was of greatest importance for the future or turbopropulsion." Is that British propaganda?
antigen4 The axial compressor was first demonstrated in England, the Germans were the first to get a production model running. While the Allies used centrifugal compressors because they were more reliable and better understood at the time. That’s part of the reason why the ME262 had to have entirely new engines every few hours. Axial jet technology wasn’t ready. It’s yet another example of the Nazis pouring scarce resources into on paper war-winning weapons using technology that wasn’t ready. The father, as we know it, of the turbo jet was British inventor Frank Whittle. Long story short, the British defense ministry rejected Frank Whittle’s design in part due to reviewing engineers at Armstrong-Whitworth pointing out, correctly as it turns out, that a turbo jet engine would be fundamentally inefficient. Instead Whittle patented the design, and not being top secret, the concept greatly influenced the Nazi design team led by Hans Ohain. Engineers at Armstrong-Whitworth, drawing upon their criticism of the Whittle concept, began development of the first axial-flow turbojets and the first turboprops. And it is this technology family that led directly to today’s turbofan jet engine. The Whittle design proceeded in private development, eventually being taken over by Rolls-Royce. By 1944, the Armstrong-Whitworth design developed higher thrust with superior throttle control, and the Powerjet/ Rolls- Royce centrifugal flow turbojet has proven itself to be far more reliable than the competing Nazi jet projects, the Jumbo 004 and the BMW 003. Steel is the wrong material from which to build jet engines. Given time, steel will always fail. It fails because the iron in steel sublimates out of the alloy, essentially turning the metal to Swiss cheese on a microscopic level. The general term for such long term metal fatigue is “creep.” In the 1940’s, no one knew that steel would inevitably fail given the temperatures and pressures in jet engines. The correct material that makes jet engines actually practical, and not simply impossible, is nickel alloy, which was a British invention, designed by the British jet design teams. There is no indication that the Nazi design teams ever understood that steel was never going to work, no matter how much they modified their design. The fact that nickel alloys were the solution was not at al intuitively obvious and the Nazis weren’t doing much in the way of R&D to discover the problem. The Nazis two major production jet engines never managed to last more than 25 hours. You can’t win a war when you have to replace, not merely one but two engines, the most critical and expensive component of an aircraft, every few hours. The icing on the cake is that the Nazis didn’t have access to sufficient quantities of nickel, courtesy of theRoyal Navy blockade, even if they somehow discovered that steel was never going to work.
The German engines only lasted a few hours before they needed a total rebuild. The British engines would go about 20x longer before they needed rebuilds.
motorbellend. The Meteor Mk 3 was in Europe and flying over Germany, none shot down by a single Luftwaffe fighter unlike the Me 262`s shot down in combat by RAF Spitfires and Tempest`s. Since the Luftwaffe did not come up to play the Meteor destroyed some 45 of their planes on the ground. So yes the Meteor was in combat and RAF pilots were hoping to meet the Me 262, maybe the Luftwaffe pilots were afraid of the Meteor as much as they were afraid of Spitfires.
codprawn The axial compressor was first demonstrated in England, the Germans were the first to get a production model running. While the Allies used centrifugal compressors because they were more reliable and better understood at the time. That’s part of the reason why the ME262 had to have entirely new engines every few hours. Axial jet technology wasn’t ready. It’s yet another example of the Nazis pouring scarce resources into on paper war-winning weapons using technology that wasn’t ready. The father, as we know it, of the turbo jet was British inventor Frank Whittle. Long story short, the British defense ministry rejected Frank Whittle’s design in part due to reviewing engineers at Armstrong-Whitworth pointing out, correctly as it turns out, that a turbo jet engine would be fundamentally inefficient. Instead Whittle patented the design, and not being top secret, the concept greatly influenced the Nazi design team led by Hans Ohain. Engineers at Armstrong-Whitworth, drawing upon their criticism of the Whittle concept, began development of the first axial-flow turbojets and the first turboprops. And it is this technology family that led directly to today’s turbofan jet engine. The Whittle design proceeded in private development, eventually being taken over by Rolls-Royce. By 1944, the Armstrong-Whitworth design developed higher thrust with superior throttle control, and the Powerjet/ Rolls- Royce centrifugal flow turbojet has proven itself to be far more reliable than the competing Nazi jet projects, the Jumbo 004 and the BMW 003. Steel is the wrong material from which to build jet engines. Given time, steel will always fail. It fails because the iron in steel sublimates out of the alloy, essentially turning the metal to Swiss cheese on a microscopic level. The general term for such long term metal fatigue is “creep.” In the 1940’s, no one knew that steel would inevitably fail given the temperatures and pressures in jet engines. The correct material that makes jet engines actually practical, and not simply impossible, is nickel alloy, which was a British invention, designed by the British jet design teams. There is no indication that the Nazi design teams ever understood that steel was never going to work, no matter how much they modified their design. The fact that nickel alloys were the solution was not at al intuitively obvious and the Nazis weren’t doing much in the way of R&D to discover the problem. The Nazis two major production jet engines never managed to last more than 25 hours. You can’t win a war when you have to replace, not merely one but two engines, the most critical and expensive component of an aircraft, every few hours. The icing on the cake is that the Nazis didn’t have access to sufficient quantities of nickel, courtesy of theRoyal Navy blockade, even if they somehow discovered that steel was never going to work.
@@freddykabulaschnitza2475 The Gloster Whittle E.28 powered by the Whittle W.1 didn't fly until May 15th 1941... After the Heinkel He-178, Heinkel He-280 and the CC N.1
Whittle had already patented his engine. Whittle opted for a centrifugal flow engine which was less efficient but more reliable with the materials available at the time. Germany ended up with the more powerful axial flow engine - but as they discovered the materials needed to withstand the stresses were simply not possible to produce at that time - hence the eternal problem of unreliability of their engines.
WRONG!! The jet engines were not unreliable, they just had a short service life due to the lack of rare metals like Chromium. The Germans didn't have access to these rare metals so they had to make do with what they had. That makes their accomplishments even more impressive.
@@haroldfiedler6549 German designs were poor and went no where, British centrifugal jet engines went into many aircraft and so did their axial flow jet engines, both types were better than the German attempts. All modern jet engines come from British designs.
@@haroldfiedler6549 Yep you are right, they used innovative solutions because of the strategic material shortage (Chrom ect) . , they made the turbineblades hollow and used compressed air from the compressorstage to cool the blades from inside. The first JUMO 004 A Prototype built with rare material runs 100 hours during the test without problems but for massproduction they reconstructed the JUMO to the 004B version with less good Heatresistent materials
@@Sturminfantrist Unreliable badly designed jet engines that lasted a few hours if treated very gently. After the war no one had much use for the poor German jet engines.
@@barrierodliffe4155 Oh Barrie you again and you know that the russians used them as RD-10 and RD-20 with better materials for their first Gen. Jets , even the French ATAR based on the BMW003
Hans von Ohain wrote a very comprehensive foreword in the _'Elements of Propulsion, Gas turbines and Rockets'._ He states: _"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of_ *_Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank._* _His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..."_ and ... _"From the beginning of his jet propulsion activities, Frank Whittle had been seeking means for improving the propulsive efficiency of turbojet engines. He conceived novel ideas for which he filed a patent application in 1936, which can be called a bypass engine or turbofan. To avoid a complete new design, Whittle sought an interim solution that could be merely "tacked on" to a jet engine. This configuration was later known as the aft fan. Whittle's work on fan jets or bypass engines and aft fans was way ahead of his time. It was of greatest importance for the future or turbopropulsion."_ and.... _"In April 1937, Whittle had his bench-test jet engine ready for the first test run. It ran excellently; however, it ran out of control because liquid fuel had collected inside the engine and started to vaporize as the engine became hot, thereby adding uncontrolled fuel quantities to the combustion process. The problem was easily overcome._ *_This first test run was the world's first run of a bench-test jet engine operating with liquid fuel."._* Now you know.
@@johnburns4017 The World's first bench test of a turbojet engine was in January 1935 in Gottingen Germany and was witnessed by Professor Robert Pohl. Frank Whittle would not begin work on jet engines until he moved to Rugby in 1936.
@@johnburns4017 As we were all know Whittle never constructed any engine with a axial compressor or a centrifugal turbine... you own references discredit your false revisionist claims.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Hello Sandyboy, so you are giving the invention of the jet engine to Guillaume are you? you better tell Spottydog that his youtube about Ohain is trash now. BTW It's the krauts that like to wear leather shorts even as grown men isn't it.
Max Hahnn actually constructed von Ohains first engine in his racing shop... he never gets any credit either. The real genius of Germanys jet engine program was Dr. Anselm Franz at Jumo and Dr. Hermann Ostrich at BMW.
"in April 1940 the Ministry allocated production of his [Whittle's] newly designed W2 [centrifugal] engine to Rover, an independently-minded car manufacturer, at a stage when there was still much to be learnt about gas-turbine design and manufacture. Unsurprisingly, this significantly extended the time taken to get it into production (see “Whittle, Lutterworth and the birth of the Jet Engine” for details). Meanwhile the progress of the Rolls-Royce Griffiths-designed axial-flow turbo-jet was slowing to a halt (it had a combined compressor/turbine whereby the inner section of each stage formed the compressor and the outer the turbine) and Rolls-Royce eventually took-over Rover’s contract, the engine passing a 100 hour test at 1,600lbs thrust in May 1943 and powering a Gloster Meteor (www.vectorsite.net/avmeteor.html )shortly after. The Metrovick F2 [axial-flow](tanks45.tripod.com) began flight-tests soon after but by now it had been decided to put the major effort into producing a development of Whittle’s engine (the Derwent) and another centrifugal engine based on Whittle’s layout, the de Havilland H1 Goblin designed by Frank Halford (.rolls-royce.com/people) , which had also reached the flight stage at this time (It powered the first Meteor to fly) and was intended to power an aircraft from the same company, the Vampire." www.frankwhittle.co.uk/content.php?act=viewDoc&docId=7&docFatherId=1&level=sub There was *four* jet engines in the UK under R&D: ♦ *Two centrifugal,* by Whittle (Rover) and Frank Halford (DeHaviland); ♦ *Two axial-flow,* by Metro-Vick and Griffiths (Rolls Royce).
There were 18 turbojet engines under development in Germany during WW2... the first successful production turbojet engine was also the first to enter operation service. The Jumo 004b engines were the most produced and the most successful design developed during WW2.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 The 1st modern turbojet was run on a test bed by Whittle. The 1939 German engine was so poor the British would never have put anything so bad into the air. It was so bad German funding was taken away from jet engine R&D. The first British plane into the air in 1941 was a complete _reliable_ jet plane, that could have gone into action. The British were way ahead of the Germans in engine technology in both centrifugal and axial-flow designs. .
@@johnburns4017 The first turbojet engine was constructed in Germany by Max Hahnn and Hans von Ohain in 1934, two years before Frank Whittle began any work on jet engines. The first successful test flight of a Turbojet engine was the Heinkel He-178 it flew powered by Hans von Ohain's jet engine on August 27th 1939. Frank Whittle did not invent the turbo jet engine nor was he the first to build or successfully flight test.
Whittle is the inventor of the turbojet engine. Had the British government and RAF the foresight to fund the man, it is conceivable that the RAF could have had a jet powered interceptor before the war.
Instead the UK government obstructed him, by forcing him to work with Rover. Rover was supposed to be doing development for production. In fact they made many design revisions but refused to carry out design changes he wanted. One example was a twist in the fan blades, which Rover refused to make. Once the contract was taken over by Rolls Royce,they made the revised fan blades and increased efficiency and eliminated a surge problem. That had cost a year's delay
@@psk1w1 Adrian Lombard at Rover and Stanley Hooker at Rolls-Royce were the real genius behind the British efforts to develop turbojet engines. But Lombard refused to work with Whittle as he had become increasingly addled by drug addiction and alcoholism. After Whittle was arrested for assaulting a Rolls-Royce engineer with a deadly weapon Whittle was shunned by both the RAE and industry experts. Whittle's career stalled and in 1946 he would be sacked during the Miles M.52 scandal. Accused of embezzlement and dereliction he was removed from his own company and exiled to the U.S. for drug rehabilitation. Whittle would never work in the U.K. aircraft industry again.
Note: The German jets based from the outset on the principle of axiale compression, now generally accepted standard. The British engineers understood this advantage only from 1947 and until 1950 had with the Rolls-Royce Avon a production-ready model of this type. The US Americans were consistent: just steal all German Jet documents, including jets and developed them further on this basis.. This guaranteed them the lead in aircraft for many decades. Whittle has certainly share in the development of the jet. But von Ohains share it is much greater.
+pavel peters I don't think Whittle deserve any significant share in the development of the jet other than the fact that he was working for the good guys and Von Ohain for the bad guys. Whittle's flawed design of 1930 has nothing to do with todays state of the art high by pass turbofans we are flying..Maxime Guillaume of France invented the axial flow compressor principle in 1921 that was copied by A.A Griffith for his 1926 book .. You are right , all American post war jet engine designs and developments are based on what they learnt from German scientists who was brought to the US with Operation Paperclip .
soaringtractor i write british engineers. Only experiments. In and after the war all German documents were stolen, but also brought from Ohain (1947) and Whittle (1942) in the USA. If your hypothesis were true, what would have the two men needed?
+pavel peters - No actually von Ohain's engine was a centrifugal unit. The British including A.A. Griffiths and Whittle all investigated axial designs but rightly concluded that materials science was not sufficiently advanced at the time. This was proven to be the correct approach by the dramatically superior thrust, reliability and life of Whittle and DeHavilland jet engines compared to the BMW and Junkers units during WWII.
+FORBAN2 von Ohain himself is quoted as saying "We felt that it looked like a patent of an idea" "we thought that it was not seriously being worked on." (he was wrong) As Ohain's patent was not filed until 1935 this evidence clearly shows that he had read Whittle's patent and had even critiqued it some 2 years before his own engine ran. ''VON OHAIN: Our patent claims had to be narrowed in comparison to Whittle’s because Whittle showed certain things."'' (clearly this was during the preparation of his patent that was later filed in 1935). ''"When I saw Whittle’s patent I was almost convinced that it had something to do with boundary layer suction combinations. It had a two-flow, dual entrance flow radial flow compressor that looked monstrous from an engine point of view. Its flow reversal looked to us to be an undesirable thing, but it turned out that it wasn't so bad after all though it gave some minor instability problems. This demonstrates prior knowledge which invalidates the claim that von Ohain was unaware of Whittle’s work. Von Ohain’s own statements then continue and upon reviewing Whittle’s patent, he offers his own critique. “We felt it looked like a patent of an idea. You find many idea patents. For an invention it is not necessary that you build it." "We thought that is was not seriously being worked on."'' Oh and Whittle developed the concept of the turbofan early on in his designs and it was Rolls Royce with the Conway that was the first company to produce one... And before you go on about axial engines - Metrovick had one flying in the UK in 1943... oops!
+FORBAN2 The German engines were no more advanced than British axial engines like the Metrovick F2 which flew in 1943 and in fact British engines were much more advanced in metallurgical terms. The centrifugal (Whittle type) engines were more powerful and much more reliable that the German WWII engines which had a life measured in tens of hours. The RR Avon axial turbojet is still in production and a ground based gas turbine and the aero version was in production until 1974... So... not so German then...
Gemini genius Whittle's patent was years ahead of the young opportunist Von Ohain. Jet Man | Frank Whittle The Turbojet Pioneer And Genius Of The Jet Revolution | Full Documentary ua-cam.com/video/G0T4-XG612Q/v-deo.html
Maxime Guillaume patented the turbojet aircraft engine in 1921 while a 14 year-old Frankie was still wearing short pants. Whittle was not first to achieve anything related to jets and was only the fourth person to successfully demonstrate a working jet aircraft engine
+Complete Aerogeek Are you sure? His engines where axial like all jet engines are today..... That was not a Whittle design ........... but think what you want to think it's a free world.
Von Ohain may be the step father of the jet but that's about it. Whittle had his patent approved when von Ohain was still in college. Von Ohain read and critiqued Whittle patents and discussed them in detail as he states in his biography. Whittle's engine ran 6 months before von Ohain's and von Ohain's engine never went into production anywhere nor did anyone base an engine on his design.. His claim to fame was getting a 'rough and ready' engine into the air with the huge backing from Heinkel. Whittle's engines were used widely post war by the US, France, Russia, China and others. His design is the basis for almost all turboprops in production and flying today Von Ohain? Not so much.
More youtube bollocks. The axial flow engine was conceived by many engineers in the 1920s. The problem was it was always recognised the technology did not exist to make the engine reliable - as the Germans found out. Whittle was well aware that the simple axial flow engine was preferable but knew it would be unreliable. He chose to develop the centrifugal engine for practical reasons.
First jet flight - German, first twin engine flight - German, first operational fighter unit - German....Even R/R tossed the centrifugal design in the bin by 1950 for axial (avon) as.it was a dead end design The limitation of the Me262 axial engine were due to shortages of exotic metals - not design. Besides it could be swapped out in an hour and could be services and reused.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 "If I could have fitted the Meteor engines to the Me 262 airframe I would have had the best fighter in the world" Adolf Galland.
@@fritzfieldwrangle-clouder7299 You could not fit Meteor engines on the Messerschmitt Me-262, they were too big and heavy... centrifugal turbojet engines were a dead-end design.
@@fritzfieldwrangle-clouder7299 You could not fit Meteor engines on the Messerschmitt Me-262, they were too big and heavy... centrifugal turbojet engines were a dead-end design.
@@flammenwerfer6548 Unless you believe Hans von Ohain himself. Here is what he had to say in his foreword to the book 'Elements of Propulsion, Gas Turbines and Rockets'- "The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle." and "From the beginning of his jet propulsion activities, Frank Whittle had been seeking means for improving the propulsive efficiency of turbojet engines. ¶ He conceived novel ideas for which he filed a patent application in 1936, which can be called a bypass engine or turbofan. To avoid a complete new design, Whittle sought an interim solution that could be merely "tacked on" to a jet engine. This configuration was later known as the aft fan. Whittle's work on fan jets or bypass engines and aft fans was way ahead of his time. It was of greatest importance for the future or turbopropulsion."
@@sandervanderkammen9230 And they'd be right wouldn't they Sandyboy because even you say that Germany didn't invent turbojet engines, at least when yo want it to be a Frenchman.
@@flammenwerfer6548 What does that famous GERMAN jet engineer Pabst von Ohain say about it - "The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle." and "From the beginning of his jet propulsion activities, Frank Whittle had been seeking means for improving the propulsive efficiency of turbojet engines. He conceived novel ideas for which he filed a patent application in 1936, which can be called a bypass engine or turbofan. To avoid a complete new design, Whittle sought an interim solution that could be merely "tacked on" to a jet engine. This configuration was later known as the aft fan. Whittle's work on fan jets or bypass engines and aft fans was way ahead of his time. It was of greatest importance for the future or turbopropulsion."
Ahhh Mr Tractor, the Junkers Jumo 004 also took several years from testing to flight and its problems with short life and turbine fragility were not solved by war's end. The Metrovick F2 went on to be the basis of the Armstrong Siddeley Sapphire a very successful engine which was licence built in the US as the J-65. Time for some more homework?
+Complete Aerogeek Wat is your debt again? Over 19 trillion ? The US wanted and got what they wanted so bad ( Obama )...... Divide 19 trillion by 325 million. Good luck patriot ;)
+Complete Aerogeek Over 20 Trillion before he leaves and by the way you react you are one of those liberals one of those whos still thinking the F35 will be a succes one day. Wake up please. I don't wish this missery upon you ok. When that's what you think ur so wrong!
You don't seem to be able to read very well. I'm not British not do I live in the UK so your dribble means very little to me however to your point perhaps you would have preferred the previous president who got you into two wars (one of them illegal) and broke the economy in the process while overseeing the GFC. That's some track record. Perhaps you would prefer the 11% plus unemployment rate when Obama took office to the 5.9% now... Bring on Trump hehe....
Love reading all these 'bus queue experts' arguing about patent this and patent that! How many of you have a patent and understand the patent process. the fact stands that Whittle came up with the first working engine,.... Compressor, combustion chamber, turbine outlet nozzle. Anybody after that (that saw the patent and claims an original idea) is either talking shit, or filed a patent that was written to bypass the claims contained within!
Not to mention that in von Ohain's biography, he talks about examining Whittle''s patent (describing it in detail) and having to change his own as a result. This in 1935!
+Complete Aerogeek very true. Anybody with a patent or familier with the patent process can see that his manipulation of wittles ideas and claims was nothing more than a palming off of somebody elses ideas as his own! Don't believe for one minute that Ohain would have admitted plagerism! He wasn't a humble, modest man like whittle!
To be fair he did alter is patent by using a radial inflow turbine (centrifugal) but the engine had so many problems Heinkel dropped it. Also to be fair his engine did power the first jet aircraft thanks to Heinkel's enormous resources but just think if Whittle had enjoyed the resources of the Air Ministry and the RAE behind him from the start. The RAF might have had an E28 derived fighter in the Battle of Britain. It was that close.
Interesting but I think four points are overlooked. First, we in the UK kept out technology secret and it gives the impression we were years behind. Sir Frank Whittle was aware of axial compressors but decided to go radial because it is relatively easier to manufacture. The Third point the compressor is the cold end of the engine so it not material limited, and both Hann and Whittle used similar blades at the hot end, and here the UK had a clear lead. Fourthly, the first design for a jet, independently proposed around the time of WW1 where the UK design would have used a Desiel powered compressor, and in the USA a similar compressor using a petrol engine, and if these designs had been followed up they would have been much more efficient. Bring on the Turbo-compound engine.
Not strictly true that compressor is cold end. The average compression ratio is between 20 and 25:1, this gives a considerable rise in air temperature, and hence compressor blade temperature, at combustion end. This causes the compressor blades to expand, and as you need a negligable gap between engine casing and blade for maximum compression efficiency, there is a chance of blades hitting engine casing. The high rotational speed also causes the blade to stretch due to centrifugal force. These problems were evenually overcome by using blade cooling holes and blades grown from single crystal to control how blades expanded and also behaved under stress. There is not a similar problem with the turbine because a ring is placed around the turbine blades to contain them. There is a different problem with the turbine blades, and that is that they can melt at required temperature for thermodynamic efficiency, hence thay are made from nickel/steel alloy.
The fact is Whittle did not have the engineering experience to construct a functional axial compressor, this was pointed out the RAE Chief of aircraft engine development A.A Griffiths. Who also exposed Whittle for plagiarizing his 1926 paper on axial turboshaft engines. Whittle would never construct any engine with a axial compressor during his short career in the aircraft industry.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Here's what Pabst von Ohain had to say- "The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today" Note the presence of axial flow compressors.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 By the way Sandyboy, you've got some more dates wrong by several years. Griffiths wasn't chief of dev at RAE until 1938. And I'm still waiting for you to produce any evidence of any claim of Whittle plagiarising any of Griffith's work. You haven't got any have you Sandyboy.
noonsight2010 Ifr I hear one more Englishman tell me how 'their' little Frank made a fucking jet engine with a tin can and a bit of fence wire - I swear I'll puke all over my keyboard
spottydog4477 Irrelevant. Whittle invented the jet engine. The Germans came up with a variant of Whittle's concept. Go and learn some history, you ignorant fool. Next you'll be claiming Sony invented television or that Germany invented the Enigma machine!
noonsight2010 You are completely irrelevant dude, Whittle never invented anything..German engine had nothing to do with Whittles flawed design, even Whittle admitted it in 1978 ,officially that Von Ohain's concept was different from his.. Whittle's engine was obsolete and outdated the moment it entered service. The axial flow engine is the type that is most commonly used these days, be it to power aircraft, ships or power stations. The axial flow compressor, later used by the vast majority of all jet engines, was invented by Frenchman, Maxime Guillaume in 1921 and it was Dr Anselm Franz who built the first operational axial flow engine ... Just as Logey Baird didn't invent the modern television ( his was a mechanical design with vital components invented in Germany by PAUL NIPKOW ) , Whittle is not responsible for the modern jet engine. Your need for education is greater than spottydog4477 !
Frank Whittle was the first to register a patent for the turbojet engine in 1930. Hans von Ohain was granted a patent for his turbojet engine in 1936. However, Hans von Ohain's jet was the first to fly in 1939. Frank Whittle's jet first flew in in 1941.
That's a popular myth in the UK, but Whittle's patent was invalid and infringed on a pre-existing patent which is why in 1935 he allowed to expire. Maxime Guillaume patented the turbojet aircraft engine in 1921 while a 14 year-old boy named Frankie was still wearing short pants.
@@freddykabulaschnitza2475 Whittle had A.A. Griffiths technical paper published in 1926 which he was caught plagiarizing. Whittle also received a patent infringement warning from Maxime Guillaume 1934 so he was also aware of the earlier patent. Whittle was also aware of the Swiss _Brown, Boveri und Cie_ Velox gas turbine engine which was demonstrated at UMIST in Manchester just 2 years after in was demonstrated in Germany in 1932. Whittle was not the first to achieve anything related to the development of jet engines and was only the 4th person to successfully demonstrate a working jet aircraft engine.
+agt155 This theory has been debunked over and over again ! even by the usually biased British sources: www.britainunlimited.com/Biogs/frank-whittle.htm 1978: Begins to work part time. Meets Ohain for the second time at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base while Ohain was working there as the Aero Propulsion Laboratory's Chief Scientist. He became convinced that Ohain had worked independently to his original Patent. The two became friends and went on lecture tours of the U.S.A together. As scientists Von Ohain would outclass Whittle many times over www.nap.edu/read/10403/chapter/44 Von Ohain had the unique opportunity to observe the development of his original invention over almost sixty years, and to work in research on the many innovations for the turbojet engine for more than forty of those years. He is credited with fifty German patents and more than twenty U. S. patents. But the British have all the reason to feel so embarrassed that the first jet powered aircraft was German and it flew two years before ....
+FORBAN2 lol...good try but sadly for you not the truth. Those who worked with Von Ohain painted a very different story. "In later years von Ohain denied that he knew anything of Whittle's patent but his colleague Dipl-Ing Wilmhelm Gundermann, who worked with him at Heinkel from the begining of April 1936 recorded 'We kept fully up-to-date with such patents as Whittles" Another German Fraud.
agt155 inventors.about.com/library/graphics/whittle_von_hain.jpg The picture is not fraud..Whittle officially confessed that it was original and not a copy... In all American documents its also confirmed..Deal with it mate. You guys been defeated in the race ''We kept fully up-to-date with such patents as Whittles'' Its the duty of the international patent office to inform every applicant about similar applications or patents that have been granted so that they can avoid any future infringement lawsuits.. After the war, von Ohains patent had not been cancelled, you can be sure the Brits and the Americans, still the closest ally at least until 70's , have done everything to find a reason to cancel Von Ohains patent, they couldn't find a singe one.. Sorry mate,you have your view and then there is reality.. Margaret Conner's ( I know the source you are referring to ) anecdotal evidence is hardly a proof.. I myself read another book in which there is another interesting point .. Von Ohain and Gundermann didn't always had good relationship, the reason was that Von Ohain chose Max Hahn as his right hand man and Gundermann was not very happy about that .. But anyway, it was WHITTLE himself who put an end to all these speculations in 1978.You can ignore everything else. .
+FORBAN2 How would Whittle know the extent to which Von Ohain was copying his work? We know for a fact that Von Ohain studied Whittles patents and is therefore a liar, he has even admitted himself in print to having been inspired by WHittle's 1930 patent which he believed had been forgotten about. Von ohains copy was just a small insignificant footnote in jet engine history whilst Whittle's engines continue to power the world.
agt155 ''whilst Whittle's engines continue to power the world.'' Whittles engines continue to power British aviation forums and feeding the trolls. 15 minutes flight of He 178, using the He S3B engine, made its maiden flight on 27 August 1939 changed the world.. There is nothing you can do to change facts mate. Whittles 1930 design never produced a workable engine, it was outdated before it flew .
NO Von Ohain's engine flew first because of the enormous funding and technical support from Heinkel but he still deserves the credit for it. A very impressive achievement. What he did not do was invent the jet engine independently or run a full scale jet engine first. Those were undeniable Whittle achievements von Ohain had read and critiqued the 1930/31 Whittle's patents before he even filed his own in 1935 and before he commenced trying to make an engine. He details this in his biography in detail. von Ohain;s engine while a good attempt was never developed into a production engine. The design had too many flaws.
18tangles I know. They think if they repeat it often enough it will become true. Wasn't that a central tenet of the Nazi party? Beliefs are irrelevant so is ranting. The historical record is clear on this one They worship von Ohain except when he says in his own words that he read and critiqued Whittle's patents before trying to patent and build his own engine.... The truth is a bummer. This does not take anything away from von Ohain who was a brilliant man but facts are facts. The rest is delusion.
Agreed, but who cares? The Brits had done fuck all by then. So many years, ridiculous. Scratching their heads over something, so something had to be fundamentally wrong with the British jet so they had to copy the Germans.
In the 30's the Germans were poring over every engine patent from the U.K. and U.S. as soon as they came out since there was an intense competion in improving engine designs. Whittle's patent was public, and those who studied them would no doubt assign the best physicist to study and develop it. Whittle was a pilot and he has described his motivation and train of thought leading to the turbojet. There's no doubt Ohain saw his patent and proceeded to design a nearly identical engine. Either pride or an oath he'd made kept him from admitting the truth.
_"Ohain saw his patent and proceeded to build a nearly identical engine"_ You sir must be completely blind or have never seen either engine... no statement has ever been more false and misleading. Whittle's 1930 patent clearly shows an engine with a first stage axial compressor, canular combustors and a axial turbine. Hans von Ohain's engine features a single stage centrifugal compressor, annular combustor and a completely unique centrifugal turbine design. The two men could not have come up with more different engines.. You clearly have no credibility whatsoever.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Although the idea of jet power dates back centuries, Sir Frank Whittle and Hans von Ohain of Germany independently developed their first prototype turbojets in the late 1930s. They didn't know each other at that point. In 1947, as part of Operation Overcast, Hans von Ohain was brought to the USA by the Americans, like many other German engineers with inventions relevant to military technology. First he started for the U.S. Air Force and helped them develop their own jet aircraft. In 1956 Pabst von Ohain became director of the Air Force Research Laboratory; In 1975 he was promoted to chief developer of the Aero Propulsion Laboratory. After his retirement, Hans von Ohain taught from 1982 at the Research Institute of the University of Dayton. Frank Whittle and Hans von Ohain had been very close friends since the 1960s. In an interview with both inventors, they themselves said that the development and the path to the goal were fundamentally different.
Sooo, we know the train of thought that led Whittle to the idea. What was Ohain's. He was a brilliant physicist, but was he obsessed with aircraft engines and high speed like a lowly pilot in England who first thought of a fan in the fuselage driven by a piston engine, pictured it, obsessed on it, wanted to get rid of that damned piston engine with all its parts "jerking back and forth", then saw that airflow down a tube and later thought- "hey, put a turbine wheel in that flow and "up" the compression ratio and drive the compressor with it and you wont need a damned piston engine, and hey, the unused energy would provide a reactive thrust. Now fiddlesticks, why didn't I think of that before?? But I guess that whole train of thought popped into Ohain's head as one thought as he was doing physics equations one night (a couple of years after Whittle's patent was made public).
Please spare us the brit propaganda myths, Whittle's patent was not the first... Maxime Guillaume patented the turbojet 9 years before Whittle. Unless you are blind, you do not need to be an engineer to see that Hans von Ohain's design is completely unrelated and not influenced by Whittle's patent.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Guillaume's patent was flawed due to compressor problems. It would never have worked. These problems were solved by A.A.Griffiths in 1926. Whittles patent and working prototype were the first. No propaganda. Just facts.
@@youtischia Sorry but you are very confused and misinformed. Whittle's patent was not first nor was it ever constructed Whittle's design suffered the same problem as Guillaume's compressor. Frank Whittle would never build a axial compressor. Hans von Ohain was first to build a successful turbojet engine... end of story.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Alas for you the story goes on. Here is what Ohain himself had to say- "The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..." Note the axial compressors. And as for his own patent, he says- "In early 1935, I worked out a patent for the various features of a gas turbine consisting of radial outflow compressor rotor, combustor, radial inflow turbine, and a central exhaust thrust nozzle." Note the absence of any axial elements. Those quotes are from Ohain's foreword to 'Elements of Propulsion, Gas turbines and Rockets'. In that foreword Ohain also describes how all the projects he worked on in those war years were cancelled or delayed so that they never went into production.
It all comes down to the invention of the steam turbine by Parsons in the 1880's. Its eventual adaptation to internal combustion was inevitable. Nobody is the father of the jet engine, several people worked on it more or less independently and one happened to be the first to put it into the air. Others were not so lucky as to secure enough resources to realize their dream in time or at all. Arkhip Lyulka patented a turbofan in 1935. Jendrassik Gyorgy patented a turboprop in 1929.
@@johnburns4017 There is no distinction. The turbojet is one particular configuration of the gas turbine engine, specifically one in which the greater part of the useful power is delivered in the form of the kinetic energy of the exhaust gas instead of mechanical work transmitted to a shaft.
The first successful demonstration of jet aircraft engine was on August 27th 1939 in Rostock Germany by Hans von Ohain and Max Hahnn.. Frank Whittle was only the 4th person to make a successful demonstration of the jet engine.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 *BZZZZZT!* Wrong answer. doktorbimmer, the name of the the inventor of the turbojet engine is.. 🎈🍾🎊 *Frank Whittle* 🎈🍾🎊 Zero points docktorboimmer. Zero. Better luck next time.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Sandyboy once again for you, from Pabst von Ohain himself- "The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle." Note the word 'first'. And "From the beginning of his jet propulsion activities, Frank Whittle had been seeking means for improving the propulsive efficiency of turbojet engines. He conceived novel ideas for which he filed a patent application in 1936, which can be called a bypass engine or turbofan. To avoid a complete new design, Whittle sought an interim solution that could be merely "tacked on" to a jet engine. This configuration was later known as the aft fan. Whittle's work on fan jets or bypass engines and aft fans was way ahead of his time. It was of greatest importance for the future or turbopropulsion." Note the words 'way ahead of his time'
He was the father of the jet engine..He was ahead of Whittle and the British. Germans gave the world the Jet engine and the jet fighter and not the Brits.
Gary Tarr WRONG gain ..He patented his idea for a turbojet in 1930 ! Patent doesn't mean invention. you can design your own engine and patent it. It remains just an idea which becomes reality if you can build something to prove that it works . Von Ohains engine run in March 1937 , weeks before Whittle's. Germans were the first.. Period..The first jet powered aircraft to fly was the Heinkel He 178, on 27-8-1939, powered by a Heinkel He S 3B engine.Two years before Whittle ..LOL
Dreachon Whittle design was outdated soon after WW2 ,in 1950 it as considered behind the times .The axial flow compressor, later used by the vast majority of all jet engines, was invented and patented by Frenchman, Maxime Guillaume in 1921. Dr Amselm Franz in Nazi Germany built the first jet engine based on this concept to power the M262. The first four engined jet to fly was the Arado AR 234C, in April 1944. It was powered by four axial flow BMW 003 jet engines. They were miles ahead of the Brits in Jet propulsion technology, miles ...The father of the BMW 003 , Herman Östrich went to France after the war, hired by Marcel Dassault and created the first French fighter jet engine ATAR for Mirage III he was also the first technical director of the SNECMA ... Some people simply can't distinguish between facts and fiction ..
barracuda7018 Indeed, the germans made a lot of marvellous breakthroughs, it was a shame however that many were perverted to serve such a corrupt regime.
Gary Tarr If I hear just one more Brit tell me their 'little Frank' made the jet engine all on his own with an empty tin can and a piece of fence wire - I'll puke all over this keyboard!
Frank Whittle did not invent the jet aircraft engine and was not the first patent, he was only the 4th person to successfully demonstrate a jet aircraft engine. His only valid claim is being the first in the U.K.
." As Ohain's patent was not filed until 1935, this admission clearly shows that he had read Whittle's patent and had even critiqued it in some detail prior to filing his own patent and some 2 years before his own engine ran. VON OHAIN: ″Our patent claims had to be narrowed in comparison to Whittle’s because Whittle showed certain things." "When I saw Whittle's patent, I was almost convinced that it had something to do with boundary layer suction combinations. It had a two-flow, dual entrance flow radial flow compressor that looked monstrous from an engine point of view. Its flow reversal looked to us to be an undesirable thing but it turned out that it wasn't so bad after although it gave some minor instability problems.″
@@freddykabulaschnitza2475 *As Frank Whittle's patent was not filed until 1930.* Maxime Guillaume patented the turbojet aircraft engine in 1921 while a 14 year-old Frankie was still wearing short pants. A.A. Griffiths chief of engine development at the Royal Aircraft Establishment also critiqued Whittle's patent... and exposed him for outright plagiarism of his technical paper published in 1926, it was given to Whittle while he attended Cranwell. Griffiths was also puzzled by Whittle's patent design, pointing out several egregious flaws that would have made the engine unworkable. Of course we know in hindsight that Whittle would never construct the 1930 engine and would start over from scratch in 1936. Complete and utter lies, Whittle's 1930 patent clearly shows a Axial first stage compressor. Even the most tertiary examination of Hans von Ohains prototype and Whittle's 1930 design clearly reveals that they bare no resemblance or features in common. Whittle would never construct any engine with a Axial compressor and as Griffiths pointed out, Whittle clearly had no understanding of how they worked. Any questions lad?
What is so mind blowing is that the ME 262 first flew on April 18th 1941, and yet it did not see combat until July 25th 1944............27 months later. There were 1400 ME 262's built, yet only 300 ever saw combat Hitler's lack of understanding the 262 as a fighter, combined with an initial lack of interest on the part of the German high command doomed the Luftwaffe. Had the Nazi's imagination been equal to their desire to rule the world, thousands of ME 262's would have been produced beginning in 1941 when they could have made a difference. All in all, brilliant concept but far to little to late.
The Me 262 in 1941 had a piston engine and straight wings, 1942 when it flew with the BMW engines both failed and after a lot of redesign it was fitted with the Jumo engines but they were not reliable and not ready until 1944, the reason so few flew, apart from a lack of experienced pilots was a lack of engines. No Me 262`s could have been made in 1941 unless they had piston engines. Even in late 1944 the Me 262 was a poor fighter.
@@barrierodliffe4155 Lack of usable engines - the Jumo engine was rubbish, and lasted 10-12 hours. And a shortage of fuel. And a shortage of pilots capable of flying the thing. Bit of a waste of effort really
@@johnburns4017 creating the 21st Century...they created NASA...Paper Clip Operation...being defeated in 1945, their designs where used by the US Force, to be the most important country of the 20th Century...advances in medical, physics, warfare, have been used by. The WW2 Winners to create what we have now...
@@gilbertorosales5317 The British were way ahead of them. The British were unimpressed with what the Germans did apart from some guided missile work. The British were way ahead in radar, electronic computers, jet engines, jet planes, etc. The USA grabbed the German engineers because the USA was so far behind everyone.
@@johnburns4017 by my comment, I don't mean, others were worthless...so, if I said something, I don't want this to be misunderstood...british have to do with development...for sure...
von Ohain made an important contribution but Whittle was the 'father' of the turbojet engine. He was the first to propose a gas turbine engine using thrust for propulsion instead of a shaft horsepower like a turboprop. He patented his idea in 1930. It is a verifiable fact (in his own words) that von Ohain thoroughly read and critiqued Whittle's patents and even changed his own application as a result, before designing and building his own engine. Whittle ran his engine in April 1937-6 months ahead of Ohain despite the German's huge backing from Heinkel. When you conceive, design, patent and build something before anyone else and then prove the concept by running an example, you are the inventor or 'father' if you like. That is a historical fact. Not a revisionist dream...
a PhD Dissertation from CAMBRIDGE The ideas and concepts of gas turbines and jet propulsion were not new. One of the earliest known examples of jet propulsion was given ~2000 years ago by Hero of Alexandria, who demonstrated the principle by revolving a bronze sphere using steam jets. Jet propulsion was also known to the Chinese, who used the principle thousands of years ago in fireworks rockets. At the beginning of this century, René Lorin (1908) and Henri-Fabrice Melot (1917) suggested using the exhaust gases of a combustion engine for propulsion. The first ideas and suggestions for a gas turbine engine for aircraft propulsion came from Maxime Guillaume in 1921. Fig. 1 is from his patent which was granted in 1922 and shows the main components of such an engine with a multistage axial compressor, combustion chamber, fuel injection, axial turbine and starter. Fig. 1: French Patent N. 534801 for a Gas Turbine Granted to Maxime Guillaume in 1922 (Reproduced from Bölkow [7]) Frank Whittle and Hans Joachim Pabst von Ohain are credited with being the first to use gas turbines for aircraft propulsion. Independently and without knowing of each other they developed aircraft gas turbines. Their test engines ran and produced thrust for the first time in the spring of 1937. Whittle was the first of the two men to be involved with this technology and in 1930 he was granted his first patent for an aircraft gas turbine. Von Ohain worked on the subject Von Ohain worked on the subject during his dissertation at the University of Göttingen. His first test engine was built in 1935. Although it was not self-sustaining, Von Ohain did measure a reduction in the load of the driving motor. Further development, especially of the combustion chamber, lead to the Heinkel He S 3B engine. On 27. August 1939 a Heinkel He 178 aircraft used this engine to make the first ever flight powered by an aircraft gas turbine. Whittle’s developments resulted in the W-1 engine, which first flew on 15. May 1941 in a Gloster E 28/29 aircraft. Von Ohain worked on the subject.. www-diva.eng.cam.ac.uk/theses/endwall-film-cooling-in-axial-flow-turbines Von Ohain not only designed the first Turbojet but also run one before Whittle and flew before Whittle. A fact you idiots can't deny....
barracuda7018 You are the most desperately delusional fool. It’s sad really. defending the indefensible is what Germans did during WWII. By the way-trolls spout inflammatory nonsense on websites to upset normal posters just as you do on every site you infest. You are a laughingstock all over the web…. Anyway onto your desperate blather: A couple of facts for you: Von Ohain hadn’t even filed his patent until late 1935 much less started work on his engine.(look up the documents) Instead of spouting childish insults why don’t you try reading his own words in his biography? No, that might mess up your distorted view of the world. You wouldn’t want to be presented with facts would you? Now on to that thesis. Actually having a postgraduate degree and having written a thesis, I know how errors can creep in even from seemingly reliable sources. Writing a thesis does not make you immune to error. Also papers like this are not peer reviewed in the normal sense, they are marked by your course mentors. Let’s see how we go here: T"he Englishman was overtaken by Ohain, who had begun a fruitful collaboration with the Heinkel aircraft company and who ran a static test of his first engine in 1935." Unfortunately our PhD student did not do his research properly. Try this: “On 10 November 1935, Ohain filed patent 317/38 for a turbojet engine.” See: Margaret Conner, Hans von Ohain: Elegance in Flight (Reston, Virginia: American Institute for Aeronautics and Astronautics,Inc., 2001), page 34. Copies of some pages from this patent appear (with English translations) on pages 125 and 126." Oops: Von Ohain was only invited to talk to Heinkel in 1936! “In 1936, while working for Pohl, von Ohain earned a patent on his version of jet engines, "Process and Apparatus for Producing Airstreams for Propelling Airplanes" (6 years after Whittle and after he had read all of Whittle's patents) "In February 1936, Pohl wrote to Ernst Heinkel telling him of von Ohain's design and its possibilities. Heinkel arranged a meeting between his engineers and von Ohain during which he argued that the current "garage engine" would never work but that the concept upon which it was based was sound. The engineers were convinced and in April von Ohain and Hahn began working for Heinkel at the Marienehe airfield outside Rostock, in Warnemünde. "While working at the University, von Ohain often took his sports car to be serviced at a local garage, Bartles and Becker. Here he met an automotive engineer, Max Hahn, and eventually arranged for him to build a model of his design for around 1,000 RM. The completed model larger in diameter than Whittle's 1937 fully working engine, although much shorter along the thrust axis. "Von Ohain took the model to the University for testing but ran into serious problems with combustion stability. Often the fuel would not burn inside the flame cans and would be blown through the turbine sending shooting flames out the back and overheating the electric motor powering the compressor." Oh and Ernst Heinkel's own diary showed the first self sustaining run of an Ohain engine was on September 1 1937... But hey he could be lying too...
barracuda7018 Von Ohain's engine did not go past the test stage and was never put into production. What do you think that was? Whittle engines are still flying today. History is the judge.
@@codprawn Whittle was NOT the first to patent the turbojet engine, Maxime Guillaume was the first to patent the turbojet engine 9 years before Frank Whittle.
♦ Ohain did not design a reverse flow engine. His engine had a centrifugal compressor and a radial inflow (centrifugal turbine - a design never used in any production engine - this was a patent filed by Whittle. Ohain even commented on its unusual design when he read Whittle's patent prior to filing his own. From Ohain's biography: _"When I saw Whittle’s patent I was almost convinced that it had something to do with boundary layer suction combinations. It had a two-flow, dual entrance flow radial flow compressor that looked monstrous from an engine point of view. Its flow reversal looked to us to be an undesirable thing, but it turned out that it wasn't so bad after all though it gave some minor instability problems."_ ♦ Whittle's reverse flow design is the basis for almost all turboprop engines in production. ♦ Britain had axial-flow engines running in 1941 - the same time that Franz had his Jumo running. The Metrovick F.2 flew in a Meteor in 1943. The F.2 transpired into the Sapphire which the US built under licence as the J-65 and then modified it as the J-47. ♦ Westinghouse in the US was given a Whittle engine, and plans for improvements. They made such a hash of it that Whittle had to go to the US to assist. The US government gave the project to GE who made the I-16 which transpired into the first US built jet engine. The US licensed the Ghost for the P-80/T-33 and the RR Nene. The Nene was used by the Soviets in the MIG 15. ♦ Ohain's engine was not produced being shelved by 1943. No engine was built using his design. ♦ Whittle also R&D'd axial-flow engines. The metallurgy was not advanced enough at the time. Whittle's engines produced far more thrust than the German axial-flows and far more reliable. ♦ The PT-6, PWC 100/150 are derivatives of Whittle's designs being still produced. ♦ Whittle's centrifugal-flow engines were built under licence in the US after WW2 - the J-33, J-42 and J-48. ♦ The Olympus was the world's first 2 shaft turbojet and the first to exceed 10,000 pounds of thrust. ♦ The 1950 Avon was the first reliable axial-flow engine. Also the longest produced gas turbine in history being still in production as a land based generator. ♦ The RR Conway was the world's first turbofan. ♦ The RB-211 was the world's first 3 shaft turbofan. ♦ The Rolls Royce Trent was the world's first turboprop to fly. ♦ British axial-flows led the post war world in technology and power. ♦ The axial-flow Sapphire was built in the US as the J-65. The GE J-47 was based on the Sapphire. *Frank Whittle invented the modern turbojet.*
Amazing what Germans can do in a shed from the printing press over the car, first glider, dynamo, jeans, x-rays, coffee filter, bicycle, rockets to the airship.
Also the TV (invented by Ferdinand Braun in 1906), the Computer (invented by Wilhelm Schickard in the early 1600s) and the telephone (invented by Phillip Reis in 1859) were German inventions. Ferdinand Braun got the Nobel Price for Physics in 1909 for it. Wilhelm Schickards machine was the first Computer in history and „das Pferd frisst keinen Gurkensalat“ (The horse doesn‘t eat cucumber salad) were the first words to be spoken trough a telephone.
The whole premise of this video is a lie. Hans von Ohain himself admitted that he based his work on the jet engine on the pioneering work of Frank Whittle, a UK engineer who founded Power Jets to develop the world's first jet engine project. Power Jets was poorly funded, whereas von Ohain had major industry funding. He got an engine to running condition first, but his engine was put into production when grossly under-developed Whittle recognised that in the short term, a centrifugal compressor had advantages. Given the results, he was right... The British engine was much better, controllable, and durable. It had a routine service interval of 100 hours, and an indefinite service life. By contrast, the German jet engines were dangerous, difficult to control, and lasted around 10-12 hours before they were scrap. This was not just because of a shortage of high quality metals. Yes, in the longer term, the centrifugal compressor was a dead end - as Whittle himself predicted. UK jet engine development went over to axial flow compressors. The poster of this video is a Nazi apologist, desperate to make his idols look superior.
Paul: As much as I'm aware that Frank Whittle was the first to get a jet engine working, Hans Von Ohain new nothing about Frank Whittle's model because he had a different configuration. Or so I have read but then different articles and history books statements are not all the same.
@@unhooked25 Ohain copied whittles patents which were for centrifugal and axial jet engines, Ohain made a centrifugal jet engine but it was a failure, he worked for Heinkel, Junkers and BMW who also copied Whittles patents made centrifugal designs, IN Britain there was the Whittle centrifgual design which became the Rolls Royce Welland, Derwent and Nene, the Halford centrifugal and the Metropolitan Vickers axial flow, they were all better than the German attempts.
Barrie Rodliffe: I'm not contradicting your statement, I mean you're not the first one to tell me this and even someone sat beside me as I was typing this out to you and he's German. And even he has just confirmed your statement as to Ohain's awareness of Whittles patents. So if a German would say so, well I guess it must be true. But I heard that Frank Whittles ultimate test was an axial driving compressor and Ohain's was a centrifugal compressor. Is that true? Or were both men experimenting with both kinds?
Paul Standeven: I have heard that Frank Whittle had to scrounge from private resources to obtain a patent because at that time and according to an old English war veteran I know, many people believed he was trying to do something that was literally impossible. And also according to this man I know (who served and ground based anti aircraft gunner) people thought Frank Whittle was everything from overly optimistic to even insane....However tell me if you agree, If the British government and Rolls Royce along with all the big aircraft manufacturers, had taken Frank Whittle seriously and funded him right from the start, they would have had fully operational jet aircrafts before the war started. Not to mention make a heavier impact on the course of the war. Not to underestimate the Germans but correct me if you think I'm wrong. Cheers.....P.S. It's funny how there was no mention of Frank Whittle is this video.
@@unhooked25 My understanding is that Whittle patented both but decided to go with the simpler centrifugal jet engine, Ohain made a centrifugal jet engine.
Whittle was a crude mechanical engineer while Ohain specifics in thermodynamic , flow calculation etc moreover this was his direct study in university. To achieve such high mechanic tech like jet engine on those days. It could not be done by Whittle for sure. It could not be done by trial and error from coarse mechanic. But coulde be success by those who 're very full knowledge to the theory and subject.
Perhapse you are afraid of a few facts, Whittle was a graduate of the RAF college Cranwell where he completed a 3 year course in Aeronautical engineering, he then went to Cambridge University and received a doctorate in engineering. The greatest mass flow engineer of them all Hooker (Rolls Royce and Bristol's) was surprised how advanced Whittles work was. There is one difference between them In Britain an experimental aircraft could not fly until it's engine had a Flight standard certificate there was not the same requirement in Germany in 1938
alex Lo The axial compressor was first demonstrated in England, the Germans were the first to get a production model running. While the Allies used centrifugal compressors because they were more reliable and better understood at the time. That’s part of the reason why the ME262 had to have entirely new engines every few hours. Axial jet technology wasn’t ready. It’s yet another example of the Nazis pouring scarce resources into on paper war-winning weapons using technology that wasn’t ready. The father, as we know it, of the turbo jet was British inventor Frank Whittle. Long story short, the British defense ministry rejected Frank Whittle’s design in part due to reviewing engineers at Armstrong-Whitworth pointing out, correctly as it turns out, that a turbo jet engine would be fundamentally inefficient. Instead Whittle patented the design, and not being top secret, the concept greatly influenced the Nazi design team led by Hans Ohain. Engineers at Armstrong-Whitworth, drawing upon their criticism of the Whittle concept, began development of the first axial-flow turbojets and the first turboprops. And it is this technology family that led directly to today’s turbofan jet engine. The Whittle design proceeded in private development, eventually being taken over by Rolls-Royce. By 1944, the Armstrong-Whitworth design developed higher thrust with superior throttle control, and the Powerjet/ Rolls- Royce centrifugal flow turbojet has proven itself to be far more reliable than the competing Nazi jet projects, the Jumbo 004 and the BMW 003. Steel is the wrong material from which to build jet engines. Given time, steel will always fail. It fails because the iron in steel sublimates out of the alloy, essentially turning the metal to Swiss cheese on a microscopic level. The general term for such long term metal fatigue is “creep.” In the 1940’s, no one knew that steel would inevitably fail given the temperatures and pressures in jet engines. The correct material that makes jet engines actually practical, and not simply impossible, is nickel alloy, which was a British invention, designed by the British jet design teams. There is no indication that the Nazi design teams ever understood that steel was never going to work, no matter how much they modified their design. The fact that nickel alloys were the solution was not at al intuitively obvious and the Nazis weren’t doing much in the way of R&D to discover the problem. The Nazis two major production jet engines never managed to last more than 25 hours. You can’t win a war when you have to replace, not merely one but two engines, the most critical and expensive component of an aircraft, every few hours. The icing on the cake is that the Nazis didn’t have access to sufficient quantities of nickel, courtesy of theRoyal Navy blockade, even if they somehow discovered that steel was never going to work.
+Echo Star Certainly Whittle was unaware of Von Ohain's work. However, Von Ohain was well aware of Whittle's work, people who worked with him at the time admitted so.
+Echo Star Its difficult for the Brits to admit defeat ... Amundsen beat Scott easily to the South pole and even today the majority of Brits think it was pure luck !!
+Echo Star Nope. von Ohain's engine was a back to back centrifugal unit with a centrifugal compressor and a centrifugal turbine. This design was never used again and von Ohain's engine never went into production. Whittle had a centrifugal compressor with an axial turbine- a design still in use worldwide today in a number of engines including the ubiquitous PT-6.
FACT! The Jet Engine pioneers all more or less started out together without any real knowledge of what the other designers were up to! Whittle designed CENTRIFUGAL flow engines which, at their best would turn out to be a dead end in engine design. Ohain settled for a compact 'reverse' flow layout which flew successfully and went on to become the basis for many successful designs, still being manufactured today, including the P&W PT-6 and units used in the Chinook Helicopters etc etc Brandner of BMW went for the Axial flow option which became the norm in jet engine design...and eventually designed the mighty Kuznetsov NK-12 Turboprop! Still, after all the intervening years, in service as the power plant for the incredible Tupolev Bear!...which is reputed to be going to remain in service til 2040! Incidentally, even Westinghouse, with vast experience in Steam Turbine design, got into axial flow jet engines in 1941 and had their engine running in 1943...but, were to eventually lose their way as Jet Engine producers. Whittle did well against the odds, to produce sound jet engines, but they were always going to be superseded by the much superior Axial flow designs which are now very much the norm in aero engine design. Time we tempered the all the talk about Whittle being the father and first great pioneer in Jet Engine Design! He was ONE of the pioneers!...and...and...he was NOT the best of them!
+Mick Dunn FACT - You have made so many errors here I think it is some kind of new record! Perhaps you should have done some homework before posting. I will deal with them one by one. 1 von Ohain did not design a reverse flow engine. His engine had a centrifugal compressor and a radial inflow (centrifugal turbine - a design never used in any production engine. This was a patent held by Whittle. von Ohain even commented on its unusual design when he read Whittle's patent prior to filing his own: From his biography: "When I saw Whittle’s patent I was almost convinced that it had something to do with boundary layer suction combinations. It had a two-flow, dual entrance flow radial flow compressor that looked monstrous from an engine point of view. Its flow reversal looked to us to be an undesirable thing, but it turned out that it wasn't so bad after all though it gave some minor instability problems." 2 Whittle's reverse flow design is the basis for almost all turboprop engines in production today. 3 Britain had axial engines running in 1941 - the same time that Franz had his early Jumo running. They flew the Metrovick F2 in 1943. The F2 was developed into the Sapphire which the US built as the J-65 and in modified form as the J-47. 4 Westinghouse was given a Whittle engine and all the plans but made such a mess of their attempt to build the engine that Whittle came over to help them but in the end the US Government gave the project to GE who made the I-16 which then went on to become the first US built jet engine. The US licenced the Ghost for the P-80/T-33 and the Nene for a number of other aircraft. 5 Derivatives of Whittle's designs are still in production today. (PT-6, PWC 100/150) So much for being superseded! 6 Von Ohain's engine never went into production and was shelved by 1943. No-one ever built an engine using his configuration. 7 Whittle also considered axial engines but knew the metallurgy was not advanced enough at the time.He was right. His engines produced much more thrust than the German axials and had orders of magnitude better reliability. 8 Whittle's centrifugal engines were built under licence in the US after the war as the J-33, J-42 and J-48. The RR Trent was the world's first turboprop to fly. British axials led the post war world in technology and power. The Sapphire was built in the US as the J-65. The GE J-47 was based on the Sapphire. The Olympus was the world's first 2 shaft turbojet and the first to exceed 10,000lb thrust. The Avon is the longest produced gas turbine in history being still in production as a land based generator. The RR Conway was the world's first turbofan. The RB-211 was the worlds first 3 shaft turbofan. Time for some homework perchance? It is an historical fact that Whittle is the father of the jet engine and the vast majority of turboprops flying today are testament to his genius.
Except that Frank Whittle patented his engine before von Ohain even completed his studies and von Ohain discusses in detail, (in his biography) reading Whittle's patents before he even filed his own and years before he built an engine. Even operating on a shoestring budget, Whittle ran his engines 6 months before von Ohain and only Whittle's engines ever went into production and his designs are the basis of most turboprops in service today. Not a bad achievement and one worthy of the title - inventor of the jet engine.
Whittle developed and patented your version of jet engine, only used by english, russian - and american british licensed versions, since they were a prodigy only in radial engine projects - but Von Ohain designed and built axial engines at first, which are the design that ruled the world since then, french also built axials sooner then english, ruusian and americans, who received german design and prototypes as a gift, at WWII ending.
+carlos henrique Teutschbeim Actually von Ohains first engines were centrifugal like Whittle's it was actually Dr. Herbert Wagner who came up with the axial flow engine which he started development on in 1935.
+carlos henrique Teutschbeim Von Ohain's engine used both radial compressor and turbine. It was a dead end design that was NEVER manufactured. He essentially took Whittle's 1930 patent masterpiece, that detailed the entire workings of every successful jet engine ever built, and made a giant turd out of it. The 'first' German jet plane that flew with Ohains jet was nothing more than a hair-dryer powered glider.
+carlos henrique Teutschbeim Nonsense! Engines derived from Whittle's designs powered British, French, US, Russian and Chinese aircraft in their thousands and Whittle's reverse flow design is the basis for almost all turboprops flying today. Von Ohain's engines were centrifugal and never went into production nor did any engine based on his design.
Carlos , I think you are wrong. The first British axial-flow engine was the Metropolitan Vickers F2 which ran in 1941. This is way before the French (who were occupied at the time of course). I would also point out that as far as I am aware, the earliest designs for one of these axial-flow engines was in a paper of 1926 by Alan Griffith. This was entitled " An Aerodynamic Theory of Turbine Design". Many scientists around the world feel that he has a claim on the invention of the jet engine. He is more famous of course for his work with metallurgy which resulted in British engines being far superior to German units in WW2.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Here is Hans von Ohain's own description of Whittle's patent- "The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle." Note the word 'first'.
There was only ONE father of the jet-engine, - and it was, factually, unequivocally, Whittle. Ohain's design was probably more advanced, but then he'd already evaluated Whittles detailed design and patent. Whittle, of course, was a quiet, modest man, but the people in aviation that matter all know that it was 100% Whittles brainchild. The fact that Ohain's flew first was purely down to the fact that Whittle was working on a tiny budget, whereas Ohain was being bankrolled by the Nazis, bigtime.
There was NOTHING more advanced about O Hains very poor copy of Whittles jet engine. The fact that it only flew once and was not developed further because it was CRAP tells the whole story
Yeah, the British were so far ahead of everyone else that they didn't have a mass produced, airworthy, jet-powered aircraft until after the war. Oh wait, about that air worthy thing. Both the Meteor and the Comet had a nasty habit of blowing up in the sky killing everyone onboard These air disasters so crippled Britain's jet aircraft program that they have never recovered even to this day.
He found out that whittle had a working turbo jet and they got the info from patent office he said it himself all documented believe what you like turbo jet inventor that worked efficient was frank whittles fact
They didn’t knew about each other other. Ohains Concept is widely used today while Whittles is dead. And Ohain built the first which ran under his own power.
@@bekluwe I recommend reading Ohain's own words in his foreword to 'Elements of Propulsion, Gas Turbines and Rockets' in which he states- "The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today for small- and medium-power output engines," Please note the reference to axial flow compressors. and "From the beginning of his jet propulsion activities, Frank Whittle had been seeking means for improving the propulsive efficiency of turbojet engines. ¶ He conceived novel ideas for which he filed a patent application in 1936, which can be called a bypass engine or turbofan. To avoid a complete new design, Whittle sought an interim solution that could be merely "tacked on" to a jet engine. This configuration was later known as the aft fan. Whittle's work on fan jets or bypass engines and aft fans was way ahead of his time. It was of greatest importance for the future or turbopropulsion." Please note that's about Turbofans. You will also be able to read Ohain's own description of his own patent- "In early 1935, I worked out a patent for the various features of a gas turbine consisting of radial outflow compressor rotor, combustor, radial inflow turbine, and a central exhaust thrust nozzle." Please note the absence of any axial flow elements. You will also be able to read in Ohain's own word how all of his designs were cancelled and never went into production. You may choose not to believe Ohain's own words but they are there for you to read if you wish.
Well Ohain and whittle were the fathers of the centrifugel Jet engine. These types are not used anymore. The real Inventor of the axial flow Jet engine used on all todays Jet aircraft was Anselm Franz and his Team at Junkers Motors.
Graham Pinkerton just 2 things: 1. Centrifugal compressors are still in use in helicopters. 2. Please explain the Metropolitan Vickers F.1 axial flow jet engine programme that first ran in 1941?
The world's first axial compressor turbojet engine was designed and built by Dr.Anselm Franz it ran in October 1940, the Jumo 004 was the first production axial turbojet.
@@barrierodliffe4155 Here is what Ohain had to say in his own words- "The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..." It's odd that wehraboos like Sandyboy there can't see the bit about axial compressors in there.
Ohain was to the jet engine what Stephenson was to the steam locomotive. Ohain created the one of the first, if not the first, practical axial flow jet engine (I don't know enough of the history of the jet engine to say it definitely, I do know that it was a Norweigen that created the first working gas turbine engine that produced more power than it consumed AEgilius Elling). Yes, I know that the British looked at axial flow gas turbines in the 1930s and decided that there were issues with materials that prevented a successful axial flow gas turbine being built at that time (Ohain's designs suffered from the same problems). But all technological problems are overcome given enough time and money. Whittle's design lead to bulky engines with less thrust than Ohain's engine, but with much greater reliability - as a pilot I'd like the power, but I'd rather get home in one piece. Ohain, like Stephenson, was the inventor of the technology he's famed for but rather the developer of the technology. Stephenson gave the world the first practical and reliable (for the period) steam locomotive after years of careful development
Ohain copied whittle`s work and his engine was not axial flow, it was centrifugal flow and did not work. Whittle designs led to the Rolls Royce Nene with over twice the thrust of any German design and far more reliability, Britain also had working axial flow designs during the war that were better than the German attempts. Ohain not only did not develop the technology he did not make any successful jet engines.
Ohain's engine wasn't axial flow. In his foreword to 'Elements of Propulsion, Gas Turbines and Rockets' Ohain himself describes his patent thus- "In early 1935, I worked out a patent for the various features of a gas turbine consisting of radial outflow compressor rotor, combustor, radial inflow turbine, and a central exhaust thrust nozzle." Note the absence of any axial flow element. Ohain describes Whittle's patent thus- "The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle." Note the axial compressors.
Spotty. Where do you get your lies from. Frank Whittle patented both centrifugal and axial flow engines, Ohain copied Whittles patents and he made a centrifugal engine but it went nowhere. Germany adopted axial flow rather than Ohain`s failure. Whittle realized that centrifugal was easier and it worked. While Metropolitan Vickers went ahead with axial flow and they were well ahead of Germany, Rolls Royce took on Whittles design and improved it, USA got Whittles designs, post war France tried to make the BMW work and wasted years while Arnstrong Siddeley went ahead with the Metropolitan design and RR made the Derwent and Nene, RR then made the excellent Avon, nothing from German failures. Russia tried to get the Jumo to work but gave up when they got the RR Nene, Czechoslovakia tried to make the Me 262 with the Jumo and after some years of trying they soon dropped it. all modern jet engines owe their existence to the British designs and not the German failures.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Since when was Guillaume's patent a German patent? As for your daft claim that Whittle's patent was found to be invalid, here's how Pabst von Ohain in his own words found it to be- "The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today" Now, I'll ask you once again to provide any evidence to support your stupid claim that Whittle's patent was invalid. And once again you won't be able to.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 You are officially an idiot. Please do try to present any evidence you think you can that Whittle's patent was ' found to be invalid'. While you are struggling I'll just leave you with Hans Joachim Pabst von Ohain's own words on the matter- "The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..."
That is a popular but completely false British myth. Maxime Guillaume patented the turbojet aircraft engine in 1921 when a 14 year old Frankie was still wearing short pants. Frank Whittle was a unlikely hero, a prolific boaster and shameless self-promoter he was propelled to fame by sheer propaganda. Whittle was not the first to achieve anything related to the development of the jet engine and played a very minor role in British jet development. The real hero's were Adrian Lombard and Stanley Hooker.
The British beat the German in the race to get one working. But after the Germans got one working five months after the British, they beat the British in the race to get it into the air. But none of theirs were marketed. Much of Frank Whittle's configuration is used in turbo jets to this day.
Hitler was his own worst enemy, Insisting on using the engine for an ill conceived bomber project. He never listened to the generals or the engineers, who knew better. He would have lost the war regardless of the so called "super weapons" being developed, but the Nazi's may have hung on longer.
@@unhooked25 That is incorrect, Hans von Ohain and Max Hahnn built the world's first turbojet in 1934, at least a year before Whittle attempted to build a jet engine.
@@unhooked25 The important issue is the first successful flight test demonstration in Germany. Hans von Ohain was the first to power an aircraft in pure jet flight, this was August 27th 1939 with the Heinkel He-178, Whittle's engine was not successful for another 2 years.
I heard dr von ohian talk about jet engine development in 1980 and 1981 at the university of florida. Von ohain made the jet work he was the first. Dr. Von ohain was a great American patriot, strong supporter of us military, and a very fine man. Talking with him after his presentation was a great honor. He taught propulsion at the university of florida a year i took peopulsion. Cannot say enough good about this great man.
antigen4: Okay you say the Germans won the technology war? Well yes I believe that may very well be true, in fact I'm quite sure that it is true. But the British RAF officer Frank Whittle was the first to build and test a turbo jet engine. But I do believe the Europeans especially the Germans are at the forefront of all science and technology.
@@antigen4 yet Germany was behind Britain on radar, jet engines and even weapons, German machine guns were beautifully made but complex and prone to jamming, that is why Germany made thousands of copies of the Sten gun, quick and cheap to make, easy to strip and clean.
actually not ... (behind britain on radar) - they were surprisingly advanced ... when britain ended up capturing one of the german night fighter interceptors they found equipment on board that actually TRACKED the british night fighter SIGNALS in order to find them ... but it was a back and forth cat and mouse game - the germans though had the mother of all radar installations - the HIMMELBELT (or -bett?) - the Kammhuber line which was a distributed network using small wurzburg dishes to build up a centralized map which is the very model on which today's CELLULAR NETWORKS were built ... most of what we hear about the germans is propaganda it seems ... didn't help much in the end though i guess ..though it helps US steal all their cool tech .... check THIS out if you're interested in the topic - fascinating! ua-cam.com/video/ZTC_RxWN_xo/v-deo.html
@@antigen4 Yet Britain had the best radar system in the world, Germany never worked out how the British home chain radar worked, Britain came up with the centimetric radar that was small enough to be fitted in night fighters, that was given to USA like many British developments. It seems popular to claim Germany was advanced in all technology but Britain was ahead in many areas
Coanda had an idea which did not work. It was an internal combustion engine powering a fan, not an original idea at all, and most certainly not a jet engine
@@psk1w1 It was a ducted fan and whilst I agree that claims for Coanda as inventor of the jet engine are nonsense, the idea is sort of present in the turbofan.
I'm sorry (no, not really) but I have to puncture your distorted vision of the history of the jet engine with facts and timelines. No, yours is the propaganda. In later life, Dr Hans von Ohain acknowledged on several occasions, to several distinguished British gas turbine engineers that, had Whittle received the same support that he had received, the RAF would have had jet fighters in service some three years before the Luftwaffe. Having been evasive when interrogated after the war, von Ohain also acknowledged to Whittle himself that he had read Whittle's original patent when it was circulated in Germany, soon after its publication as a provisional patent by The UK Patent Office in 1931. Can I suggest you get a copy of 'German Jet Engine and Gas Turbine Development 1930-45 - if you can afford the exorbitant cost, now that it's out of print? Such a conversation is recorded in the foreword by the late Dr Gordon Lewis (formerly Technical Director at Rolls-Royce, Bristol), for whom I worked briefly before his retirement. The book also records how notoriously unreliable the German engines were, and I will give you just one example. Immediately after the war, the Americans and the British were able to use BMW's high altitude test plant in Munich, and arrangements were made to test a DH Goblin I in August 1945, with the assistance of German engineers. After 5hrs of testing, the German engineers expected the test cell to be opened up to inspect the engine. They were greatly surprised to be told that this would not be necessary, and the engine was run for a total of 42hrs before being inspected. A Goblin II was subsequently tested and ran trouble-free for 71hrs.
Sorry but you are relying on British propaganda myths and revisionist history. Maxime Guillaume patented the turbojet aircraft engine in 1921 when a 14 year old Frankie was still wearing short pants. Whittle would not begin actual work on jet engines until 1936 when he moved to Rugby... Hans von Ohain and Max Hahnn had already demonstrated a working protype a year earlier. The old British myth that von Ohain copied Whittles patent is easily debunked. The 1930 patent was fundamentally flawed and would have never ran successfully, this was pointed out by A.A Griffiths who also proved that Whittle plagerized his work... this would have been a minor faux pas if Griffiths hadn't been the Cheif of Engine development at the Royal Aircraft Establishment. Whittle not only sabotaged his career in aviation but he also would discover that his patent was also invalid and he allowed it to quietly expire. Whittle would never build the 1930, or any engine with a axial compressor. The 1930 features a axial + centrifugal compressor and axial turbine and no discernible combustor. Ohain's engine was completely different with a centrifugal compressor, anular combustor and a centrifugal turbine. The two engines couldn't be more different. Please stop spreading your lies and false British propaganda.
The facts on this are very different than popular myth. The Jumo 004b Orkan engines met or exceeded the RLMs 100 hour PFTR standards for acceptance into Luftwaffe service. The exact same 100 hour PFTR required by the RAF, USAAF and the Soviet Air Force during WW2. The U.S. Army tested the Me-262's engines as part of Operation Lusty and confirmed TBOs in the 50 to 60 hour range EXCELLENT by WW2 standards.
@@johnburns4017 Just the facts here lad, whittle did not invent the turbojet engine and modern jet aircraft all use axial compressor engines invented by Dr. Anselm Franz.
When I read the comments it makes me sad that some cant accept the fact that their nation was late to invent jet engine. Von Ohain is the inventor of the Jet engine. That is a true. Why are trying to make it seem as if it had been invented by some other man. ?? Just accept it .
Astsubay Fethi _____ How can you "invent" something when it is well known that he studied Whittle's patents before he built his first engine. The patent holder is the 'inventor'. It's not even a debate.
Astbury Fehti Hard to accept a lie, Ohain had access to Whittle's 1930 patents and he copied a lot from them and his patent was several years later, Ohain never made a successful jet engine.
@@barrierodliffe4155 Maxime Guillaume patented the turbojet engine 9 years before Frank Whittle. The Heinkel He-178 flew on August 27th 1939, 2 uears before Whittle's engine would fly.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Guillaume never had a turbojet engine which could run under it's own power, Whittle was the first to do that. The He 178 did fly but it was a dead end, they never retracted the undercarriage on the few short flights and Ohain's copy of the Whittle centrifugal engine was dropped.
@@barrierodliffe4155 The first jet engine was successfully flight tested on August 27th 1939, 2 years before Frank Whittle. The Gloster Whittle E.28 would only be the 4th jet to complete a successful flight test. Whittle's design was an evolutionary dead end. Today we use the axial compressor turbojet invented by Dr Anselm Franz in 1940.
In 1986, Frank Whittle was an adjunct professor who came to speak to a class that I was enrolled in. He talked for about an hour discussing: how, when and why he came up with the engine design concepts; issues he had trying to get support for his project, when support finally came and, later, how Rolls Royce was able to get a lot of the patents (He was not pleased). He had projector slides of the shop, engine testing, etc. He stated that he freely talked to the Germans in the 30's (and from my memory, they visited him to see the engine) saying it helped with their design. He made no claims about him or the Germans being the inventor. However, it was clear that he thought he provided the Germans important support and that had he been supported by his government, the engine would have been completed a lot earlier. (Not discussed was the fact that had the government supported him, his patent would have never been made public and been considered highly classified so the Germans would have never had the ability to use/see any of his work)
Absolutely rediculous nonsense!
Whittle was exposed as a plagiarist, he had access to A.A. Griffiths technical paper published in 1926 while attending RAF Cranwell. Griffiths was also Cheif of Engine Development at the Royal Aircraft Establishment so Whittle had effectively sabotoged his own career before it had even started.
Rolls-Royce was nationalized during WW2 and thus holds no patents related to Whittle engines.
Never happened, both Whittle and von Ohain confirmed that neither man had any knowledge of the others work, a tertiary examination of the two engines reveals that they bear no resemblance to each other and are fundamentally different.
Whittle certainly did not invent the jet engine, he was not the first to patent or achieve anything related to jet engine development... Whittle was only the fourth person to successfully demonstrate a working jet aircraft engine.
Completely false, from the historical records we can confirm that Whittle would not begin any actual work on jet engines until he left Cambridge and moved to Rugby in 1936... this is 2 years after Hans von Ohain and Max Hahnn constructed the first prototype.
Whittle's patent was invalid and he was forced to allow his patent to expire in 1935 or face legal action for infringing on Maxime Guillaume earlier patent filed in 1921.
Whittle would never construct any engine based on this invalid patent nor would he ever construct an engine with a Axial compressor.
Any questions?
What I originally wrote was my recollection of what Whittle personally said to the class in 1986. NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.
So far, you've called him an addict, plagiarist, fraud, embezzler and, pretty much, a total low-life. Have you considered/resolved that your attitude/feelings don't align with the awards and distinctions that Whittle received throughout his life as a result of his previous work on the jet many years earlier. Do me a favor, when you accuse someone of something. Provide some sources citation(s), OK? Providing the reader with this helps your argument
For example: Here's an old documentary (ua-cam.com/video/G0T4-XG612Q/v-deo.html). At the 3 min mark, Whittle describes how he learned about turbines. (Spoiler Alert! It wasn't AA Griffiths) If you watch the entire video, you'll find more that touches on other areas that you dispute.
Also, you wrote, "... from the historical records we can confirm that Whittle...". Who's the we?
Now, can you provide citations?
@@sandervanderkammen9230
@@jluntz423 All true, Whittle was an unlikely hero, a fictional character created by the British propaganda machine.
Whittle was a prolific boaster and tireless self-promoter who refused to give credit to anyone who he stole or commandered from.
Maxime Guillaume patented the turbojet aircraft engine (patent number 534.801) on May 3rd 1921 when a 14 year-old Frankie was still playing in the street in short pants.
"Hospitalized for Nervous Exhaustion" is a polite 1940s code speak for drug rehab...
Whittle was forced to go to rehab twice to avoid criminal charges.
He was arrested for assaulting a young Rolls-Royce engineer and brandishing a gun during a meeting after a week long drinking bing fueled by drugs.
And again when the Miles M.52 scandal broke.
Whittle admitted in his own biography that he struggled with alcoholism and how it adversely effcted his career.
A.A. Griffiths not only acused Whittle of plagiarism he proved it, Whittle had unknowningly transscribed a mathmatical error that Griffiths had corrected in subsequent revised editions... Whittle was given the original publication while attending Cranwell by Joseph Hancock.
It's no coincidence Whittle's engineering career ended the same time as the Miles M.52 was cancelled.
Whittles W.2/700.M.52 engine never produced the specifed thrust or completed a PFTR test, he had began demanding 10,000 pound cash payments to conduct tests which led to the investigation of Miles.
When ministry officials and auditors raided Miles Aircraft no trace of the two M.52 prototype aircraft were found, only incomplete drawings and a partially completed wooden mock-up.
Miles Aircraft were charged by the Crown court with 24 counts of fraud and embezzlement.
I suggest you read 'Whittle, the TRUE Story' by John Golley and the infallible Bill Gunston.
Your replies have caused me to do some checking. I found "Whittle, the TRUE Story" but couldn't find a free online copy (because I am not totally vested in this issue one way or the other). I found another book, "Making Jets in World War II" by Giffard. It addresses Whittle, von Ohain and the process of invention (which I think is important to understand well)
I don't know your background, but mine is not aerospace engineering. I do know something about steam and gas turbine engines (as a past user/operator and something I had to learn as part of my college education). I've always known that Whittle didn't come up with the concept of the turbine. Axial flow impulse and reaction steam turbines were in use well before 1900 with the centrifugal compressor in 1906. So, this addresses the basic forms of, both, Whittle and von Ohain's turbines. Both didn't invent that. It was the modifications required to identify and meet the design requirements including producing adequate thrust in an efficient manner that made them successful.
Inventions - I think this story is closest to this issue... I knew someone who was a PhD candidate at Caltech in chemistry many years ago. His class was tasked to develop the necessary steps to develop a certain molecule. He was the only one successful in doing this. The professor ended up developing the processes to make it marketable. It made that prof a lot of money as this molecule was commercially valuable. When asked if the prof stole it, he replied he didn't care because he would have never developed it on his own and didn't care if the guy used his idea.
I would also ask you to take a look at Guillaume's drawing to see if it is a viable candidate for a gas turbine. Does it have a crank starter?
@@sandervanderkammen9230
@@jluntz423 Indeed, the concept of steam turbines dates back to at least 80 BC.
One needs to make a clear distinction between *Rankine Cycle* Heat Engines and the *_Turbojet_* Which operates specifically on the *Brayton Cycle* even though the development of Brayton Cycle engines are not perfectly defined.
The first practical examples are often _Combined Cycle_ applications.
Alfred Büchi invented the first practical gas turbine Brayton Cycle engine called the *Turbocharger* in 1905, this operates as a Combined Cycle Brayton engine sharing it's Hot Reservoir with a Otto or Diesel engine.
Jens Ægius-Elling demonstrated the first pure Brayton Cycle Gas Turbine engine in 1913.
Büchi, working at Swiss company Brown, Boveri und Cie demonstrated the first production gas turbine engine as part of the Velox engine a Combined Cycle Rankine/Brayton powerplant boiler.
It is demonstrated first in Berlin in 1932 and at the request of A.A. Griffiths is demonstrated at UMIST in Manchester in 1934.
Griffiths helps negotiate a licensee agreement for Metropolitan-Vickers in 1935.
The first gas turbine to be constructed in the UK is a BB&C Velox engine.
What is still disputed _in Britain_ is who invented the TURBOJET.
Whittle was not the first to patent, construct or demonstrate a Turbojet engine.
His only rightful credit is being first in the UK, beating A.A Griffiths and Hayne Constant at Metropolitan-Vickers by
Nearly 2 years.
Whittle is the FOURTH person to successfully demonstrate a working air breathing jet propulsion aircraft engine on May 15th 1941, two years after von Ohain, and after Heinkel and Campini.
FYI: You were not looking at the actual drawings of Guillaume's 1921 patent.
In 1921 France still required (like many countries) applications to include an actual sample, or scale model of the design to be patented, the sample was drawn by the file clerks and returned to the applicant if practical.
Guillaume included a tiny hand crank on his scale model entirely for demonstration purposes, the hand crank is not part of the actual engine design, which like Whittle's invalid 1930 patent design was never actually constructed.
Any questions?
amazing, with no computers or CNC machines they developed by hand fully functional jet engines that pushed aircraft
von ohain's first working prototype = 1935
frank whittle's first working prototype = 1937
you do the math
Frank Whittle patented the first jet engine in 1930, Van Ohain built the first jet engine some years later. History is ironic.
Meh von ohain also had a designe in 1930 miep
@@tobiaszistler Heel Hieni
@@user6008 Maxuime Guillaume was the first to patent the turbojet engine in 1921... 9 years before Whittle. Von Ohain built and flight tested in the first jet aircraft.
Sander Van der Kammen , I do believe they classifi his as an impulse engine ? Worked on a slightly different affect ? Combustion over a leading edge ? So apparently one and only engine and plane of this type ever !
Whittle wasn't a physicist but a pilot who wanted a faster powerplant. He's talked about the progression of thought that led him to "upping the compression ratio", etc that led to the idea. He virtually became a physicist trying to realize that. Funny that no one up to that time had thought of the concept, but that after Whittle's patent was made public amazingly a German physicist ( the perfect person to hand the concept off to) was assigned to, excuse me dream't of the concept, developed it. Nobody like a physicist to dream about flying and how to go faster to come up with a mechanical concept. Right.
Whittle was an RAF pilot who trained to become a mechanical engineer. His first paper on the jet engine was part of his engineering degree
Frank Whittle was not the first to patent a turbojet engine...
Maxime Guillaume patented the turbojet engine in 1921 when Whittle was still a lad wearing short pants.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 I think you'll find it was the krauts that favoured the short pants, in leather no less.
August 4, 2020----Playing by the rules gets you contracts. Not doing so, no contracts. As you can tell, things haven't changed even today.
The Jumo 004a (not the 004b)..had a service life of 200-250 hrs ...the limitation of the engine was down to materials shortage and not the design or construction. Further, it could be swapped out in 2hrs - unlike a spit engine which too 48hrs
+spottydog4477 If the German engine were so good they wouldn't have been discarded so quickly after the war.
They werent.........
+spottydog4477 Yes they were. They were an evolutionary dead end, superseded by British designs. No engine today traces it's history back to the German jets. Every engine produced today is related to Frank Whittle's designs.
German AXIAL flow design = Future of all engines
British Centrifugal design - junked by '47
+spottydog4477 France built its fighter jet industry based on BMW 003 ..Dassault ,the most successful pioneer in Europe didn’t even consider British technology..germans were miles ahead ...
Lol. Amazing how the comments are all the Whittle fanboys.
Vielen Dank!
Who ever invented the jet it is only a development of previous ideas & technology
To be improved on by future designers & engineers that is the great thing about
Education.
there ain't half been some clever bastabs
I think you will find that Hans is on record as saying he was was prompted to follow his research because of the whittle 1929 patent and if you want to abusive about us brits criticise the fact that the idiots in government were stupid enough not to realise how important Whittles work would be and put that patent into the public domain. Criticise Griffith who completely rubbished a young students work because it overshadowed his own unsuccessful efforts. The important thing is Whittle not only solved the jet engine problem he knew what it should be used for, high altitude commercial passenger planes and that was in 1930.
That argument has been tried before... but the facts are irrefutable.
Frank Whittle was not the first to patent the turbojet engine nor was he the first to produce a successful jet engine.
Whittle is only credited with being the first in the U.K. and was only the fourth person to develop a successful flightworthy jet.
Frank Whittle did not make many friends at the RAE, his first blunder was plagerizing A.A.Griffiths 1926 paper on axial compressor turboshaft engines.
Griffiths also exposed the fact Whittle lacked a functional understanding of the complex aerodynamics required in the design of compressors and turbines.
Whittle demanded that the government provide the experts that he needed and retain full control and credit for the design.
It was Adrian Lombard and Stanley Hooker who were the real genius behind Britain's jet engine program.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Oh Sandy honey, I see you are still trying to tout your crap. Just let me remind you of what Ohain himself said-
"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced,
was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for
in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed
by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the
compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..."
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Sandyboy, my little friend, It's been a year and more and you still haven't provided any evidence to back up your lying waffle about Whittle.
We can take it now that your claims were just sad little wehraboo lies can't we.
Er.......no,it was whittle,this chap has admitted that he read Whittles plans for a jet engine in the early 30's before he'd made any plans himself.
Mark Hepworth
When the allies took over the German design offices, they found translations of Whittle's patents in every desk. The Americans have perpetuated the myth that the Germans were ahead to hide their technical embarrassment in WW2.
John Burns Roger that John,the usual UA-cam "bollards" being shown here....
John Burns
Completely bullshit. You see... this is the Whittle propaganda. You are searching for a way to explain that Ohain didn’t invented the jet engine.
@@bekluwe You only have to look as far as Ohain's own words-
"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced,
was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for
in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed
by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the
compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..."
Not the Usual Whittle propaganda? Try some historical facts for a change:
von Ohain not only ran an engine 6 months AFTER Whittle in September 1937 but contrary to popular belief, he had thoroughly read and critiqued Whittle's patents by 1935 a full 2 years before he built and ran his own engine.
Margaret Conner in her book "Elegance In Flight" (Hans von Ohain: Elegance in Flight (Reston, Virginia: American Institute for Aeronautics and Astronautics,Inc.), 2001) describes how Ohain's "..Patent attorney happened upon a Whittle patent in the years that the von Ohain patents were being formulated" (I.e PRIOR to 1935)
VON OHAIN'S own words demonstrate prior knowledge which invalidates the claim that von Ohain was unaware of Whittle’s work.
VON OHAIN: “We felt it looked like a patent of an idea. You find many idea patents. For an invention it is not necessary that you build it." "We thought that is was not seriously being worked on."''VON OHAIN himself is quoted as saying "We felt that it looked like a patent of an idea" "we thought that it was not seriously being worked on."
Want more? ''VON OHAIN: Our patent claims had to be narrowed in comparison to Whittle’s because Whittle showed certain things."'' (clearly this was during the preparation of his patent that was later filed in 1935).
VON OHAIN: '"When I saw Whittle’s patent I was almost convinced that it had something to do with boundary layer suction combinations. It had a two-flow, dual entrance flow radial flow compressor that looked monstrous from an engine point of view. Its flow reversal looked to us to be an undesirable thing, but it turned out that it wasn't so bad after all though it gave some minor instability problems. '
***** David, I appreciate your considered and measured reply.Perhaps the weakness of your posting comes from failure to acknowledge that Von Ohain did not copy whittle design and was already researching his own engine DESPITE reading whilltes work...The little He176 which flew with his motor was independent, original and worked first!
spottydog4477 Hi Spottydog, I just rechecked my statement and I didn't say that von Ohain copied Whittle's engine. I said he had read and critiqued and also changed his patent as a result.
This is something usually denied by commentators but is historical fact.
It is not necessary to make this a nationalistic competition as several here have. The historical facts speak for themselves.
The 'development' of von Ohain's engine was independent as they both worked in secrecy but you cannot fairly say as many people do that he was unaware of Whittle's work or that he was not influenced by it as by his own words, he had to change his patent after reviewing Whittle's designs...
When Capt Eric 'Winkle' Brown interviewed von Ohain's team at the end of the was (Brown was fluent in German, a world leading test pilot and employed in operation PaperClip to recover German technology - Ohain's key people (Like Gundermann) were quite open about referring to Whittles drawings and patents as they developed the developed the engine.)
He certainly would have been helped by having several patents to look at with all of their formulae and details. This is not to take anything away from von Ohain. Any professional academic always researches all of the available designs before commencing their own work. (much as car companies do today when designing new models)
It is absolutely true that his engine flew first primarily because of Heinkel's backing and facilities and of course the HE-178 and von Ohain and Heinkel deserve all the credit they get for flying an engine first but again, the historical record shows that Whittle ran his engine 6 months before von Ohain unlike what some commentators here claim..
Had Whittle had similar he would have flown some time earlier than he did.
From an engineering standpoint, Whittle's engine was also considerably more advanced in concept that von Ohain's, using an axial turbine instead of a radial inflow one. It was also an order of magnitude more reliable than the German axial engines which is why it was so successful.
When some on this page hear this they think it is some kind of attack on von Ohain but the facts don't attack. They are just facts and verifiable. It is not necessary to make this a nationalistic competition as several here have.
In the long term, Whittle's contribution was far more significant than von Ohain's.
This is easily and objectively measurable by looking at the post war influence of each man's design.
Whittle engines pioneered the turboprop (Trent, Dart,Tyne.Proteus) and went on to power dozens of military and civilian aircraft types from the US, UK, Soviet Union, France, Argentina, China, Sweden and more* and many are still flying today. * (See a list I found and cross checked below)
The principles of his designs (centrifugal compressor and reverse flow) are still used in most modern turbo-props and small scale gas turbines. Von Ohain's engine while a significant achievement, was a technological dead end and was never put into production. There are no known derivatives of his engine that I can find.
I hope this was helpful but I think I will leave now as some people here don't want to discuss history and science, they want to invent or relive an alternate version of reality and you can't win with people like that...
*
RR Nene - Armstrong Whitworth AW.52, Avro Ashton, Boulton Paul P.111, Boulton Paul P.120, Canadair CT-133, Dassault Ouragan, de Havilland Vampire (Australian FB-35)
FMA IAe 33 Pulqui II, Handley Page HP.88, Hawker P.1052, Hawker P.1081,Hawker Sea Hawk, Nord 2200, SNCAC NC 1080, SNCASO SO.4000, SCASO SO.6000 Triton
Sud-Est Grognard, Sud-Ouest Bretagne, Sud-Ouest Triton, Supermarine Attacker.
Sud-Est SE 535 Mistral (French Nene Vampire) GE J-31 Lockheed P-80,Bell P-59 Airacomet, Ryan FR Fireball --- Allison J-33- Convair XF-92, Lockheed P-80 Shooting Star, Lockheed T-33 Shooting Star, Lockheed F-94A / F-94B Starfire--- Pratt & Whitney J42 (Nene) - Grumman F9F Panther, --- RR Tay (Upgraded Nene licenced as P&W J-48) Grumman F9F-5 Panther, Grumman F9F-6/-8 Cougar, Lockheed F-94C Starfire, North American YF-93,
Klimov Vk-1 (Nene copy) MiG-15 , MiG-17, Il-28 'Beagle'. (Plus thousands of Chinese variants of these aircraft) --- RR Derwent - Avro 707, Avro Canada C102 Jetliner,, Fairey Delta 1, Fokker S.14 Machtrainer, Gloster Meteor, RD500 (Derwent copy) Lavochkin La-15, Raduga KS-1 Komet, Yakovlev Yak-23, Yakovlev Yak-25, Yakovlev Yak-30, Yakovlev Yak-1000, Nord 1601, FMA I.Ae. 27 Pulqui I
Also aircraft using the RR Dart which was descended from the Trent the first flying turboprop: Armstrong Whitworth AW.660 Argosy: Avro 748, Breguet Alizé: Anti-submarine aircraft: Fairchild F-27: Fairchild Hiller FH-227, Fokker F27: Grumman Gulfstream I, Handley Page Dart Herald: Hawker Siddeley Andover: NAMC YS-11:
Convair 600, Convair 640, Vickers Viscount
Whittle spent a lot of time working with Lord Hive's team at RR helping them to develop these engines from his designs.I think anyone would agree that this is a pretty impressive list.
Again no hyperbole. Just let the facts speak for themselves.
Have a good day.
***** Hello David, many thanks for the detailed reply - I appreciate it very muchcheersspotty
The real doktorbimmer
'' Von Ohain built his first prototype in 1934.... before Whittle
AA Griffiths also critiqued Whittles 1930 patent... he was equally unimpressed with the design.
Whittle himself soon realized the design was fatally flawed as he never attempted to built the design himself... not even a model was ever constructed.
Whittle was not the first to patent the jet engine... so you are making certain assumptions here based on a false notion''
Trolls will never learn doktorbimmer !
barracuda7018 nah... its not their fault really, the problem is the nationalist bastards that try to change history by leaving out all the facts...
Whittle was the first to build a jet engine... in the UK.
The problem is when you forget the UK is not the world.....
That is the true germans fathers to jets.
No, that was the British.
@@johnburns4017 no it s germany
@@hominhduc3200
Read my posts on this video. It was the *British.*
@@johnburns4017 *Germany invented the jet engine Johnny*
*Thanks to the "Information Age" we can finally lay to rest the false propaganda myth the Frank Whittle invented the jet engine... the irrefutable facts prove that Whittle was not the first to achieve anything related to the development of turbojet engines.*
Just the unvarnished truth - Frank Whittle patented the jet engine in 1930. His patents were published in the British newspapers, which were read by German spies. Hans Von Ohain read and saw Whittles work and ran with it...
Von Ohain built the very first operational jet engine in 1937. However, Frank Whittle's engine built the very same year would not become operational until 1941. But the fact of the matter is Frank Whittle's axial Flow engine was sound, it worked. Whereas the German's never did build reliable jet engines during WWII.
Therein lies the rub. Whittle had a fully functional jet engine, the Germans did not which severely limited their ability to keep jet fighters in combat. Nevertheless after the war Frank Whittle and Hans Von Ohain became good friends and deeply respected the accomplishments of each other.
Spies didnt steal anything -whittles patents were in the public domain = dumb ass
Germans didnt copy whittle centrifugal engine (which was obsolete by 1947) - dumb ass
Whittle was not the first to patent the turbojet and did build or test first... Maxuime Guillaume patented the turbojet in 1921, 9 years before Whittle.
One only need to compare the Whittle patent with von Ohain's to see they are completely different designs.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Good morning Sandyboy dear. So let's consider what Pabst von Ohain had to say on this issue.-
"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced,
was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for
in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed
by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the
compressor, and an exhaust nozzle."
Go with Guillaume if you want Sandy honey and go tell Spottydog4477 that he's wrong and Pabst von Ohain isn't the father of the jet engine.
The earliest attempts at airbreathing jet engines were hybrid designs in which an external power source first compressed air, which was then mixed with fuel and burned for jet thrust. In one such system, called a thermojet by Secondo Campini
The Turbojet engine is the design we use today, and was first built and successfully flight tested by Hans von Ohain in Germany.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Ohain's design, described by himself as-
"...consisting of radial outflow compressor rotor, combustor, radial inflow turbine,
and a central exhaust thrust nozzle"
is NOT a design used today. Ohain himself says of Whittle's design-
"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced,
was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for
in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed
by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the
compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..."
Further he says of Whittle-
"From the beginning of his jet propulsion activities, Frank Whittle had been
seeking means for improving the propulsive efficiency of turbojet engines. ¶ He
conceived novel ideas for which he filed a patent application in 1936, which
can be called a bypass engine or turbofan. To avoid a complete new design,
Whittle sought an interim solution that could be merely "tacked on" to a jet
engine. This configuration was later known as the aft fan. Whittle's work on
fan jets or bypass engines and aft fans was way ahead of his time. It was of
greatest importance for the future or turbopropulsion."
Whittle invented the centrifugal flow jet engine and Ohain invented the axial flow jet engine in universal use today.After the war Hans went to work for Pratt and Whitney designing jet engines.
Ohins engine was not Axial flow
Pratt and Whitney got their designs from Britain.
Robert Jonasson
The axial compressor was first demonstrated in England, the Germans were the first to get a production model running. While the Allies used centrifugal compressors because they were more reliable and better understood at the time. That’s part of the reason why the ME262 had to have entirely new engines every few hours. Axial jet technology wasn’t ready. It’s yet another example of the Nazis pouring scarce resources into on paper war-winning weapons using technology that wasn’t ready.
The father, as we know it, of the turbo jet was British inventor Frank Whittle. Long story short, the British defense ministry rejected Frank Whittle’s design in part due to reviewing engineers at Armstrong-Whitworth pointing out, correctly as it turns out, that a turbo jet engine would be fundamentally inefficient. Instead Whittle patented the design, and not being top secret, the concept greatly influenced the Nazi design team led by Hans Ohain.
Engineers at Armstrong-Whitworth, drawing upon their criticism of the Whittle concept, began development of the first axial-flow turbojets and the first turboprops. And it is this technology family that led directly to today’s turbofan jet engine. The Whittle design proceeded in private development, eventually being taken over by Rolls-Royce. By 1944, the Armstrong-Whitworth design developed higher thrust with superior throttle control, and the Powerjet/ Rolls- Royce centrifugal flow turbojet has proven itself to be far more reliable than the competing Nazi jet projects, the Jumbo 004 and the BMW 003.
Steel is the wrong material from which to build jet engines. Given time, steel will always fail. It fails because the iron in steel sublimates out of the alloy, essentially turning the metal to Swiss cheese on a microscopic level. The general term for such long term metal fatigue is “creep.” In the 1940’s, no one knew that steel would inevitably fail given the temperatures and pressures in jet engines. The correct material that makes jet engines actually practical, and not simply impossible, is nickel alloy, which was a British invention, designed by the British jet design teams. There is no indication that the Nazi design teams ever understood that steel was never going to work, no matter how much they modified their design. The fact that nickel alloys were the solution was not at al intuitively obvious and the Nazis weren’t doing much in the way of R&D to discover the problem.
The Nazis two major production jet engines never managed to last more than 25 hours. You can’t win a war when you have to replace, not merely one but two engines, the most critical and expensive component of an aircraft, every few hours. The icing on the cake is that the Nazis didn’t have access to sufficient quantities of nickel, courtesy of theRoyal Navy blockade, even if they somehow discovered that steel was never going to work.
I cannot see how Von Ohain can possibly be credited as an inventor of the jet engine?? It is an undeniable fact that the German government bought six copies of Whittle's patent from the British Patents Office in 1934 and distributed them throughout Germany.This is a matter of public record. At the end of the war, copies of Whittle's patents were found in almost every German lab. Whilst under interrogation by the Americans, Von Ohain himself remained tight lipped but his colleagues including Wilhelm Gunderman admitted that they persistently referred to Whittle's patents. I do not deny that Von Ohain might have had a more advanced design (let down though by inferior German metallurgy - the British engines could go five times longer between overhaul. The ME 262 engines had to be virtually rebuilt every few hours) but he cannot be regarded as the inventor. The first person to come up with the idea is the inventor. Otherwise, I co-invented the rocket, satellite, television etc. etc. etc.
Its an undeniable fact that you are a lonely drooling idiot who lives in his own fantasy world in which you get to define reality. If Germans had copied Whittle's patent, Heinkel 178 would have crashed in 1939 !!!!! The fiction you posted has been debunked decades ago ...
Barracuda 7018 - We have not communicated before but thank you so much for your usual erudite contribution to what has become a rather disappointing discussion.
It is an undeniable fact (to coin a phrase) that you need to be pointed in the direction of the nearest psychiatrist since your grip on reality is non-existent. You and one or two others on here are simply trolls who are deluding themselves and trying to rewrite recorded history. None of what I said originally has been debunked at all. I note that as usual you are unable to produce sources to back up your infantile ravings. If you did your research properly, you wouldn't need to make up your partisan little stories designed to assuage your nationalist feelings. Shouldn't you be in bed by now??
I should point out that owing to difficulties logging in, I changed my account name. I am sure this must have been confusing for you.
Correct he said it himself thank you for being the only sane person on here
What the fuck is this you moron. All you need is fucking read. This story is clear and nothing to assume.
So, you British that won’t see that Ohain invented it, be proud of Whittle because you‘ll never had or will have such an important person for history of flying such as Otto Lilienthal. He made flying possible. He was the first to successfully with a machine which was havier than air.
Lets not forget Ferdinand von Zeppelin, he invented the first powered passenger aircraft in history... and the World's first commercial passenger airline.
Let’s not forget Manfred von Richthofen!
@@sandervanderkammen9230
You need therapy.
@@johnburns4017 You need therapy... you are delusional and a pathological liar.
The problem for you Klumpy old chap is that it's not just the British that won't see that Ohain invented it, It's Ohain himself that doesn't see that he invented it.
"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced,
was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for
in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed
by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the
compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..."
That's a quote of Hans von Ohain's own words from his foreword to 'Elements of Propulsion, Gas turbines and Rockets'.
After reading some comments, I have to add a few items. 1. The presentation was pre-internet. 2. The audience of the class was small (~15 students) so there was a lot of open discussion. 3. Whittle appeared to be very forthright about any aspect of his work. 4. He displayed no negative feelings about the Germans... only the british gov't... I thought he moved to the Maryland for that reason.
Whittle was at the center of one of the most shameful and humiliating scandals in British history, when the Miles M.52 scandal broke in January 1946, Frank Whittle was removed from Power Jets Ltd by the Ministry and discharged from the RAF amid allegations of bribery, embezzlement and derilection of duty.
He was exiled to a drug rehab in America for treatment of amphetmine, benzodiazepine addiction and alcoholism.
Whittle was disgraced, black-balled and never returned to work as an aerospace engineer in Britain, he would remain in exile in America for the remainder of his life.
Interesting. Can you give a link that describes the scandal with more detail? I found some negative stuff about drug addiction and M.52's abrupt cancellation but no details. I also read that he was knighted and medically retired as an air commodore (1 star general) two years later.
I will say that none of this takes away from his (or Ohain's) imagination, intelligence and hard work to create his engine. I also read that Whittle & Ohain occasionally lectured together and that each respected the other's work and there was no mention of them communicating with each other until after the war... in that regard, I will retract that portion as I could have easily misremembered or misunderstood what Whittle said.
@@sandervanderkammen9230
@@jluntz423The new Labour government was already deeply embroiled with the Bank of England scandal and the collapse of the British economy... there was no interest in dragging itself into the Miles scandal.
It's primarily goal was to give the Americans some ressemblance of control and order to negotiate more favorable surrender terms with the Americans, by the time the Anglo-American bailout mortgage agreement was signed in July the Miles M.52 scandal had blown over.
The war was over 78 years ago, now that we live in the _Information Age_ we can final dispense with the old, false propaganda myths and revisionist history that Whittle invented the jet engine.
Whittle was not the first to achieve anything related to jet development and was only the fourth person to successfully demonstrate a working jet aircraft engine..
He is rightfully credited to be the _"first in the UK"_ ...nothing more.
The real genius of the British jet program were genuine heroes like,
Adrian Lombard
Stanley Hooker
Hayne Constant
and A.A.Griffiths
The modern layout for ejection seat was proposed by Romanian inventor Anastase Dragomir in the late of 1920S. Catapult-able cockpit.
Margaret Conner in her book "Elegance In Flight" (Hans von Ohain: Elegance in Flight (Reston, Virginia: American Institute for Aeronautics and Astronautics,Inc.), 2001) describes how Ohain's "patent attorney happened upon a Whittle patent in the years that the von Ohain patents were being formulated".
von Ohain himself is quoted as saying "We felt that it looked like a patent of an idea" "we thought that it was not seriously being worked on." (he was wrong) As Ohain's patent was not filed until 1935 this evidence clearly shows that he had read Whittle's patent and had even critiqued it some 2 years before his own engine ran.
''VON OHAIN: Our patent claims had to be narrowed in comparison to Whittle’s because Whittle showed certain things."'' (clearly this was during the preparation of his patent that was later filed in 1935).
''"When I saw Whittle’s patent I was almost convinced that it had something to do with boundary layer suction combinations. It had a two-flow, dual entrance flow radial flow compressor that looked monstrous from an engine point of view. Its flow reversal looked to us to be an undesirable thing, but it turned out that it wasn't so bad after all though it gave some minor instability problems.
This demonstrates prior knowledge which invalidates the claim that von Ohain was unaware of Whittle’s work. Von Ohain’s own statements then continue and upon reviewing Whittle’s patent, he offers his own critique. “We felt it looked like a patent of an idea. You find many idea patents. For an invention it is not necessary that you build it." "We thought that is was not seriously being worked on."''
OOOPS.... Maybe step father is more appropriate.
Complete Aerogeek R/R dumped the centrifugal engine by .47 in favour of the German AXIAL flow design..then the world never looked back...Ohains Axial flow design was completely different from whittles.....
spottydog4477 Mr Dog, the depth of your ignorance is truly impressive!
von Ohain's engine had a centrifugal compressor and a centrifugal (radial inflow) turbine. Axial engines were first designed (but not built by) Guillaume and A.A Griffiths in the 1920s. Whittle's first patent showed a 2 stage axial compressor feeding a single stage centrifugal one.
Anselms axial Jumo followed Gyorgy Jendrassik successfully running a test engine in 1938 and his axial turboprop in 1940.. So much for axial's being 'a German invention'.
As for RR 'dumping' the centrifugal engine you are clearly sniffing something you shouldn't. RR produced over 7,000 Darts ( a 2 stage centrifugal engine) quite a number of which are still in service.
While RR naturally moved on with developing and axial engine as it was slimmer and higher compression could be gained, the Nene, Derwent, Goblin and Ghost were produced by the thousands, some models even being licenced US and other countries. The USSR and China also produced many thousands of unlicensed copies for aircraft such as the MiG 15/17, the IL-28 and more. The MiG 15 had a performance advantage in climb and ceiling over the Sabre while powered by a Nene copy.
Finally, many modern turboprop engines have centrifugal compressors and the ubiquitous PT-6 has an axial/centrifugal compressor just as Whittle designed it in 1929.
You know there is a thing called Google and you can actually look this stuff up before you open your mouth and look like a baboon on the net...
spottydog4477 Axial flow engine concept was first pioneered by Maxime Guillaume in France, few years later the Brit A.A.Griffith copied the idea and completed a study about it in 1926..
It was the Germans WHO built the first axial flow engines.. But it was not Von Ohain, it was H.Wagner and Dr. Anselm Franz, the father of all jet engines we fly today. Pls ignore this Aerogeek Troll ...
wiki.scramble.nl/index.php/Snecma_Atar
When the war ended in 1945, Germans were miles ahead of any country in jet propulsion technology.
The French went straight to BMW after the war,they were never interested in Whittle's outdated concepts.
www.artefactsconsortium.org/Publications/PDFfiles/Vol3Trans/3.04.Transport-Lyth,JetEnginesGrPics75ppiWEBF.pdf
Some statements from its content:
However, it was in the 1930s that the principles
of its operation were first studied and understood. Until that time noone conceived of an aircraft power plant as being anything other than a sophisticated internal combustion engine, a technology borrowed from automobile engineering. The two figures credited with first seeing the potential of jets are the Englishman Frank Whittle and the German Hans von Ohain. 4 Whittle's patent for a turbojet engine was registered in 1930, so there is some basis for seeing him as the father of the jet. However, because there was a six-year delay before \X'hittle's ideas gained acceptance, the Englishman was overtaken by Ohain, who had begun a fruitful collaboration with the Heinkel aircraft company and who ran a static test of his first engine in 1935. From this time onwards, the endeavours of Whittle and Ohain proceeded neck-and neck, although they worked independently in Britain and Germany and were unaware of the other's progress. In 1937 Whittle ran the first test of his engine, theW1, but two years later Ohain's He-S8B engine powered the world's first jet-propelled flight in the Heinkel He-178aircraft. Whittlehadtowaituntil1941untilhisWI engine powered the first British jet aircraft, the Gloster E28/39 (Figure 1), by which stage another Heinkel, the He-280, was flying with two Ohain He-S8A jet engines.s By 1944 both the British and the Germans had jet-propelled fighters in operational use: the Gloster Meteor, with a developed version of the \X'hittle jet, known as the Rolls-Royce Derwent, and the Messerschmitt Me-262, with Junkers Jumo 004 jets.
By the end of the war the Germans had at least three separate fullscale company-based jet engine programmes in progress, as American and British interrogators discovered to their astonishment in the summer of 1945. Ohain's original test engine, the He-S3B, had been built for simplicity with a centrifugal compressor like Whittle's, but Heinkel had then proceeded to more advanced designs like the He-S30 with axial-flow compressors. Meanwhile at Junkers, Germany's leading engine maker, Anselm Franz had led the development of the Jumo 004, a simpler axial-flo~ turbojet, which went into ma~s production and powered the Me-262 fighter. A third programme at BMW produced the Bramo 003 engine, which featured a counterrotating compressor, different from both the Jumo 004 and the Heinkel He-S30. Ultimately it was this Heinkel design, incorporating both rotors and stators, which became the standard configuration for commercial jet engines.6
On this evidence it is clear that the Germans were decisively ahead in the field by the spring of 1945 PAGE -82-83
There is not much doubt that had Germany not been defeated it would have led the world in jet engine development in both the military and civil sectors
And the above article was written by a Brit...LOL ..
barracuda7018 thank you.......
spottydog4477 You are welcome mate !
We should stick to the facts instead of Margaret Conner's anecdotal "Elegance In Flight" LOL
www-diva.eng.cam.ac.uk/theses/endwall-film-cooling-in-axial-flow-turbines
Another iron clad proof that Maxime Guillaume pioneered the axial flow concept.
This time a PhD Dissertation from CAMBRIDGE..
The ideas and concepts of gas turbines and jet propulsion were not new. One of the
earliest known examples of jet propulsion was given ~2000 years ago by Hero of Alexandria,
who demonstrated the principle by revolving a bronze sphere using steam jets. Jet propulsion
was also known to the Chinese, who used the principle thousands of years ago in fireworks
rockets. At the beginning of this century, René Lorin (1908) and Henri-Fabrice Melot (1917)
suggested using the exhaust gases of a combustion engine for propulsion. The first ideas and
suggestions for a gas turbine engine for aircraft propulsion came from Maxime Guillaume in
1921. Fig. 1 is from his patent which was granted in 1922 and shows the main components of
such an engine with a multistage axial compressor, combustion chamber, fuel injection, axial
turbine and starter.
French Patent N. 534801 for a Gas Turbine Granted to Maxime Guillaume in 1922..
Frank Whittle and Hans Joachim Pabst von Ohain are credited with being the first to use
gas turbines for aircraft propulsion. Independently and without knowing of each other they
developed aircraft gas turbines.
Their test engines ran and produced thrust for the first time in the
spring of 1937.
On 27. August 1939 a Heinkel He 178 aircraft used this engine to make the first ever
flight powered by an aircraft gas turbine. Whittle’s developments resulted in the W-1 engine,
which first flew on 15. May 1941 in a Gloster E 28/29 aircraft.
When the war ended in May 1945, the motherfucker Brits didn't have a single axial flow engine in operation ..
' I always said Von Ohain not only designed the first Turbojet but also run one before Whittle..
Here you have the confirmation one more time
Whittle was the father of the turbojet?? of course he was but step father !
Hey guys, isn't this great fun?
Cool! I just found out you could start this jet engine like you would a lawn mower , with a pull cord. Patent s 672256, 3190554, 3013505 .
"Meanwhile Dr von Ohain (www.aircraftenginedesign.com/custom.html3.html) , after studying physics and applied mechanics at Gottingen University, had in 1935 patented his proposal, which like Whittle's original patent of 1930, featured both axial and centrifugal compressors. In later years von Ohain denied that he knew anything of Whittle's patent but his colleague DiplIng Wilmhelm Gundermann, who worked with him at Heinkel from the beginning of April 1936 recorded _'We kept fully up-to-date with such patents as Whittles."_ Both now set about building engines, von Ohain with the help of Max Hahn and financial support from Ernst Heinkel (en.wikipedia.org.wiki/Ernst_Heinkel) whose company he joined in 1936, and Whittle by contracting parts to various companies, particularly the steam-turbine maker British Thompson-Houston. Both successfully ran their engines in 1937, Whittle in April and *von Ohain some 3 months later.* Heinkel now designed and built an aircraft to test von Ohain’s engine, the HE 178 which first flew on 27th August 1939, but which was abandoned after only 3 flights."
www.frankwhittle.co.uk/content.php?act=viewDoc&docId=7&docFatherId=1&level=sub
Even for a test engine a flight worthiness certificate was needed in the UK, so an engine was not put in a plane. Also they knew the engine had a lot to go so not worth it, as it would just waste time.
While in Germany I saw a TV program in which Ohain admitted that he was given a copy of Whittles Patent by the German air ministry.
Oh no, not this British propaganda shit again.
@@bekluwe
I prefer facts myself.
John Burns
Those are only facts in Britain. For example read the Wikipedia article over him.
@@bekluwe
Frank Whittle patented both centrifugal and axial flow engines, Ohain copied Whittles patents making a centrifugal engine but it went nowhere. Germany adopted axial flow rather than Ohain`s failure. Whittle realized that centrifugal was easier and it worked.
Metropolitan Vickers went ahead with axial flow R&D being well ahead of the Germans. Rolls Royce took on Whittle's design improving it,. The USA got Whittle's designs, post war France tried to make the BMW jet engine work properly and reliable wasting years while Arnstrong Siddeley went ahead with the Metropolitan design. RR made the Derwent and Nene, RR then made the excellent axial-flow Avon, taking nothing from German failures.
The USSR tried to get the German Jumo to work but gave up when they got the RR Nene, Czechoslovakia were given some me 262's by the Soviets after WW2, they dropped the plane quite soon. All modern jet engines owe their existence to the British designs and not the German failures.
Frank Whitttle was already working on his design in the late 1920s and
openly Patented the design in 1930, a full seven years before Ohhain's
design ran.
Howard McKay so you're saying whittle was working on jet engine in the late 1920s when the aircraft was just invented?
Yes, have a look at Wikipedia. BTW I know his son, Ian Whittle, quite well. He was a pilot for Cathay Pacfici in Hong Kong, where I lived for 27 years. Not sure what you mean by "the aircraft" but the Wright brothers flew a powered plane in 1903. A decade was a massive time in aviation development.
Aircraft were only invented in the late 1920s? I presume where you live they still call them silver birds.
carlos perry Please consider 1904 are Aircraft Day (Wright Brothers). Ever hear of WWI (1914 - 1918)? There were 10s of thousands of aircraft flying around. You live in a world of Tribal Mythology man!
I started working on the secret "Flux Capacitor Propulsion" technology back in the early sixties.... but.. Doc Brown won the laurels....
Dont mention the Empire...
ww ww why? It's a lovely theatre.
I always believed that Ægidius Elling was first with his engine in 1905. (Was it 1905)?
+Leif Vejby The first known description of a gas (steam) turbine (Aeolipile) was by the Greek mathematician Hero of Alexandria in the 1st Century AD. In 1551 Tariq al-Din described a steam turbine. In 1629 the Italian Giovanni Branca followed suit. In 1648 John Wilkins of England also. In 1884 Parsons produced the first steam turbine. Steam is a gas remember. Englishman John Barber patented the first gas turbine powered by gas other than steam in 1791.
noonsight2010
Thanks, and we are discussing if a German or an Englishman came first!!!!!
+Leif Vejby As a late-comer who evidently hasn't read the previous posts that's a bit rich coming from you. The fact is an Englishman patented the first gas (i.e. using gas combustion rather than steam) turbine in 1791. The first. Pertinent to the discussion to all but a fuckwit.
noonsight2010
Relax, I am just amused by the fact that people are discussing who invented the gas turbine, and only discuss von Ohain and Whittle, and not the people who came before those them.
+Leif Vejby True, John Barber was the first.
O'Hain was never the father of the jet engine . That accolade lies firmly with Sir Frank Whittle . O'Hains HS 1 engine was a dismal copy of Whittles WU and only flew twice and was never developed further . O'Hain was given a copy of Whittles 1930 patent and copied it "badly"
frank whittle had the first working jet engine
now history properly frank whittle had the first working turbo jet engine Germans did not that's a fact please don't believe armchair bullshiters like what I've seen on here very sad
It blows after 10 seconds. Nice jet. Ha ha.
von Ohain’s jet ran fully under its own power about 2 months before Whittles. When von Ohain met Whittle the German gave Whittle credit because Whiitles ran on kerosine having solved the combustion problems first whereas the German used hydrogen. It’s worth noting that von Ohain also used a centrifugal compressor, not only that they used a “centrifugal gas turbine” which is properly called a “radial inflow turbine” because of the self matching properties. The combustion problems of the German engines were solved by a Mac Hahn, the garage mechanic with 400 patents on welding torches. At that point the German Air Ministry threw enormous resources into axial engines because of their lower drag although Heinkel continued with centrifugals and a hybrid type called the Head 012. Britain focused on the centrifugal because of its greater controllable nature and Lower weight but paid a price in airframe integration. The meteor engines had to be shifted from underslung to middle of the wing with 3 navel modifications and thrust increases. The Americans showed the way by burying the engine in the aircraft thereby negating the air drag issue from large diameter engines. This rapidly lead to the nene that was then scaled down to create the Derwent V. Thus although the British engines were better the airframe integration issues they created delayed the British aircraft until a combination of last longer nacels and more power overcame it.
But still whittle was the first to get one tested and working but not on it's own power. Hans Von Ohain's model was the second to be tested but his was the first self contained model and the first to get into the air. Franks would have been the first if his fellow brits had taken him seriously from the start.
No, Whittle was the first only in the UK.
Just read the first lines of the Frank Whittle Wikipedia entry and you’ll find out what is true. Spoiler: he didn’t invented it. And I saw some comments were it is said that Ohain admitted it. But where are the proofs for this?
Wikipedia isn't Wikipedia anymore, like Snopes isn't Snopes anymore. The left ruin everything.
The proof of what Ohain said is in his foreword to 'Elements of Propulsion, Gas turbines and Rockets'. From page 15-
"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced,
was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for
in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed
by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the
compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..."
Whittle and von Ohain are both credited with the invention. However von Ohain was the first to built one. The concept of the jet engine had been around for ages before Whittle and Ohain was the first to realize it. Ohains concept wasn’t just the first working but also the most widely used today. The myth that Ohain knew about Whittle is completely wrong. They both worked independently. Every country has its inventor for everything: Thomas Newcomen didn’t invent the steam engine. It was the French Denis Papin after he fled to Prussia in the late 17th century. Alexander Graham Bell or Antonio Meucci didn’t invented the telephone, it was the German Phillip Reis who invented it in 1859. „Das Pferd frisst frisst keinen Gurkensalat“ (A horse doesn‘t eat cucumber salad) were the first words to be spoken through a telephone. The computer also wasn’t invented by Charles Babbage or Konrad Zuse. It was invented by the German Wilhelm Schickard almost three centuries earlier.
Also television wasn’t invented by Baird. It was invented by Ferdinand Braun in the 1890s and the 1900s for which he got the Nobel Price for Physics in 1909.
Hans von Ohain invented the the jet engine 2 years before Whittle.
Sander Van der Kammen
Right. I don’t understand the British and their propaganda.
@@bekluwe Here's what Hans von Ohain himself had to say in his foreword to 'Elements of Propulsion, Gas Turbines and Rockets'-
"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced,
was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for
in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed
by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the
compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..."
and
"In April 1937, Whittle had his bench-test jet engine ready for the first test run.
It ran excellently; however, it ran out of control because liquid fuel had collected
inside the engine and started to vaporize as the engine became hot, thereby
adding uncontrolled fuel quantities to the combustion process. The problem
was easily overcome. This first test run was the world's first run of a bench-test
jet engine operating with liquid fuel (Fig. 7)."
and
"From the beginning of his jet propulsion activities, Frank Whittle had been
seeking means for improving the propulsive efficiency of turbojet engines. ¶ He
conceived novel ideas for which he filed a patent application in 1936, which
can be called a bypass engine or turbofan. To avoid a complete new design,
Whittle sought an interim solution that could be merely "tacked on" to a jet
engine. This configuration was later known as the aft fan. Whittle's work on
fan jets or bypass engines and aft fans was way ahead of his time. It was of
greatest importance for the future or turbopropulsion."
Is that British propaganda?
The first TV broadcasts were in Soho, London by Baird. *FACT*
I THOUGHT IT WAS FRANK WHITTLE
you thought correctly
I thought it was Ægidius Ælling in Norway in 1903
You all thought wrong. Hans von Ohain was the inventor.
The first turbojet engine was built by Hans von Ohain and it successfully flight tested on August 27th 1939. 2 years before Frank Whittle.
@Hoa Tattis Wrong, first patent for rhe turbojet engine was Maxime Guillaume, May 3rd 1921
Patent number 534.801
Spotty : Stop trying to stir the pot Whittle was 3 years ahead of OHain
Shittle was nothing but an intellectual property thief
@Teddles Peddles
Ohain copied whittle and got it wrong. that is history.
@@antigen4
You can't steal something you invented, the Germans did steal and copy Whittle's patents.
antigen4
The axial compressor was first demonstrated in England, the Germans were the first to get a production model running. While the Allies used centrifugal compressors because they were more reliable and better understood at the time. That’s part of the reason why the ME262 had to have entirely new engines every few hours. Axial jet technology wasn’t ready. It’s yet another example of the Nazis pouring scarce resources into on paper war-winning weapons using technology that wasn’t ready.
The father, as we know it, of the turbo jet was British inventor Frank Whittle. Long story short, the British defense ministry rejected Frank Whittle’s design in part due to reviewing engineers at Armstrong-Whitworth pointing out, correctly as it turns out, that a turbo jet engine would be fundamentally inefficient. Instead Whittle patented the design, and not being top secret, the concept greatly influenced the Nazi design team led by Hans Ohain.
Engineers at Armstrong-Whitworth, drawing upon their criticism of the Whittle concept, began development of the first axial-flow turbojets and the first turboprops. And it is this technology family that led directly to today’s turbofan jet engine. The Whittle design proceeded in private development, eventually being taken over by Rolls-Royce. By 1944, the Armstrong-Whitworth design developed higher thrust with superior throttle control, and the Powerjet/ Rolls- Royce centrifugal flow turbojet has proven itself to be far more reliable than the competing Nazi jet projects, the Jumbo 004 and the BMW 003.
Steel is the wrong material from which to build jet engines. Given time, steel will always fail. It fails because the iron in steel sublimates out of the alloy, essentially turning the metal to Swiss cheese on a microscopic level. The general term for such long term metal fatigue is “creep.” In the 1940’s, no one knew that steel would inevitably fail given the temperatures and pressures in jet engines. The correct material that makes jet engines actually practical, and not simply impossible, is nickel alloy, which was a British invention, designed by the British jet design teams. There is no indication that the Nazi design teams ever understood that steel was never going to work, no matter how much they modified their design. The fact that nickel alloys were the solution was not at al intuitively obvious and the Nazis weren’t doing much in the way of R&D to discover the problem.
The Nazis two major production jet engines never managed to last more than 25 hours. You can’t win a war when you have to replace, not merely one but two engines, the most critical and expensive component of an aircraft, every few hours. The icing on the cake is that the Nazis didn’t have access to sufficient quantities of nickel, courtesy of theRoyal Navy blockade, even if they somehow discovered that steel was never going to work.
Barrie - dream on crouton
The German engines only lasted a few hours before they needed a total rebuild. The British engines would go about 20x longer before they needed rebuilds.
Any British Jets in ww2 been in combat ? Loi !
motorbellend.
The Meteor Mk 3 was in Europe and flying over Germany, none shot down by a single Luftwaffe fighter unlike the Me 262`s shot down in combat by RAF Spitfires and Tempest`s. Since the Luftwaffe did not come up to play the Meteor destroyed some 45 of their planes on the ground. So yes the Meteor was in combat and RAF pilots were hoping to meet the Me 262, maybe the Luftwaffe pilots were afraid of the Meteor as much as they were afraid of Spitfires.
codprawn
The axial compressor was first demonstrated in England, the Germans were the first to get a production model running. While the Allies used centrifugal compressors because they were more reliable and better understood at the time. That’s part of the reason why the ME262 had to have entirely new engines every few hours. Axial jet technology wasn’t ready. It’s yet another example of the Nazis pouring scarce resources into on paper war-winning weapons using technology that wasn’t ready.
The father, as we know it, of the turbo jet was British inventor Frank Whittle. Long story short, the British defense ministry rejected Frank Whittle’s design in part due to reviewing engineers at Armstrong-Whitworth pointing out, correctly as it turns out, that a turbo jet engine would be fundamentally inefficient. Instead Whittle patented the design, and not being top secret, the concept greatly influenced the Nazi design team led by Hans Ohain.
Engineers at Armstrong-Whitworth, drawing upon their criticism of the Whittle concept, began development of the first axial-flow turbojets and the first turboprops. And it is this technology family that led directly to today’s turbofan jet engine. The Whittle design proceeded in private development, eventually being taken over by Rolls-Royce. By 1944, the Armstrong-Whitworth design developed higher thrust with superior throttle control, and the Powerjet/ Rolls- Royce centrifugal flow turbojet has proven itself to be far more reliable than the competing Nazi jet projects, the Jumbo 004 and the BMW 003.
Steel is the wrong material from which to build jet engines. Given time, steel will always fail. It fails because the iron in steel sublimates out of the alloy, essentially turning the metal to Swiss cheese on a microscopic level. The general term for such long term metal fatigue is “creep.” In the 1940’s, no one knew that steel would inevitably fail given the temperatures and pressures in jet engines. The correct material that makes jet engines actually practical, and not simply impossible, is nickel alloy, which was a British invention, designed by the British jet design teams. There is no indication that the Nazi design teams ever understood that steel was never going to work, no matter how much they modified their design. The fact that nickel alloys were the solution was not at al intuitively obvious and the Nazis weren’t doing much in the way of R&D to discover the problem.
The Nazis two major production jet engines never managed to last more than 25 hours. You can’t win a war when you have to replace, not merely one but two engines, the most critical and expensive component of an aircraft, every few hours. The icing on the cake is that the Nazis didn’t have access to sufficient quantities of nickel, courtesy of theRoyal Navy blockade, even if they somehow discovered that steel was never going to work.
motorrebell
Yes, the Gloster Meteor.
So, you attacked the image of German quality. Cowabunga it is.
Sir Frank Whittle was the father of the Jet Engine.
Frank Whittle is only the fourth person to successfully demonstrate a working jet aircraft engine, he can only be credited as the first in the UK.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 fascinating, can you point me to some literature? Many thanks.
@@freddykabulaschnitza2475 The Gloster Whittle E.28 powered by the Whittle W.1 didn't fly until May 15th 1941... After the Heinkel He-178, Heinkel He-280 and the CC N.1
Whittle had already patented his engine. Whittle opted for a centrifugal flow engine which was less efficient but more reliable with the materials available at the time. Germany ended up with the more powerful axial flow engine - but as they discovered the materials needed to withstand the stresses were simply not possible to produce at that time - hence the eternal problem of unreliability of their engines.
WRONG!! The jet engines were not unreliable, they just had a short service life due to the lack of rare metals like Chromium. The Germans didn't have access to these rare metals so they had to make do with what they had. That makes their accomplishments even more impressive.
@@haroldfiedler6549
German designs were poor and went no where, British centrifugal jet engines went into many aircraft and so did their axial flow jet engines, both types were better than the German attempts. All modern jet engines come from British designs.
@@haroldfiedler6549 Yep you are right, they used innovative solutions because of the strategic material shortage (Chrom ect) . , they made the turbineblades hollow and used compressed air from the compressorstage to cool the blades from inside. The first JUMO 004 A Prototype built with rare material runs 100 hours during the test without problems but for massproduction they reconstructed the JUMO to the 004B version with less good Heatresistent materials
@@Sturminfantrist
Unreliable badly designed jet engines that lasted a few hours if treated very gently. After the war no one had much use for the poor German jet engines.
@@barrierodliffe4155 Oh Barrie you again and you know that the russians used them as RD-10 and RD-20 with better materials for their first Gen. Jets , even the French ATAR based on the BMW003
I'm so pleased to see that Hans Von Ohain is finally getting the recognition he deserves!
Whittle ws a figment of British propaganda!
Hans von Ohain wrote a very comprehensive foreword in the _'Elements of Propulsion, Gas turbines and Rockets'._ He states:
_"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced, was that of_ *_Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank._* _His patent was applied for in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..."_
and ...
_"From the beginning of his jet propulsion activities, Frank Whittle had been seeking means for improving the propulsive efficiency of turbojet engines. He conceived novel ideas for which he filed a patent application in 1936, which can be called a bypass engine or turbofan. To avoid a complete new design, Whittle sought an interim solution that could be merely "tacked on" to a jet engine. This configuration was later known as the aft fan. Whittle's work on fan jets or bypass engines and aft fans was way ahead of his time. It was of greatest importance for the future or turbopropulsion."_
and....
_"In April 1937, Whittle had his bench-test jet engine ready for the first test run. It ran excellently; however, it ran out of control because liquid fuel had collected inside the engine and started to vaporize as the engine became hot, thereby adding uncontrolled fuel quantities to the combustion process. The problem was easily overcome._ *_This first test run was the world's first run of a bench-test jet engine operating with liquid fuel."._*
Now you know.
@@johnburns4017 *Maxime Guillaume patented the turbojet aircraft engine in 1921 when a 14 year old Frankie was still wearing short pants!*
@@johnburns4017 The World's first bench test of a turbojet engine was in January 1935 in Gottingen Germany and was witnessed by Professor Robert Pohl.
Frank Whittle would not begin work on jet engines until he moved to Rugby in 1936.
@@johnburns4017 As we were all know Whittle never constructed any engine with a axial compressor or a centrifugal turbine... you own references discredit your false revisionist claims.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Hello Sandyboy, so you are giving the invention of the jet engine to Guillaume are you? you better tell Spottydog that his youtube about Ohain is trash now.
BTW It's the krauts that like to wear leather shorts even as grown men isn't it.
Almost none of this video is about von Ohain. Sad.
Aww boo!
Max Hahnn actually constructed von Ohains first engine in his racing shop... he never gets any credit either.
The real genius of Germanys jet engine program was Dr. Anselm Franz at Jumo and Dr. Hermann Ostrich at BMW.
"in April 1940 the Ministry allocated production of his [Whittle's] newly designed W2 [centrifugal] engine to Rover, an independently-minded car manufacturer, at a stage when there was still much to be learnt about gas-turbine design and manufacture. Unsurprisingly, this significantly extended the time taken to get it into production (see “Whittle, Lutterworth and the birth of the Jet Engine” for details). Meanwhile the progress of the Rolls-Royce Griffiths-designed axial-flow turbo-jet was slowing to a halt (it had a combined compressor/turbine whereby the inner section of each stage formed the compressor and the outer the turbine) and Rolls-Royce eventually took-over Rover’s contract, the engine passing a 100 hour test at 1,600lbs thrust in May 1943 and powering a Gloster Meteor (www.vectorsite.net/avmeteor.html )shortly after. The Metrovick F2 [axial-flow](tanks45.tripod.com) began flight-tests soon after but by now it had been decided to put the major effort into producing a development of Whittle’s engine (the Derwent) and another centrifugal engine based on Whittle’s layout, the de Havilland H1 Goblin designed by Frank Halford (.rolls-royce.com/people) , which had also reached the flight stage at this time (It powered the first Meteor to fly) and was intended to power an aircraft from the same company, the Vampire."
www.frankwhittle.co.uk/content.php?act=viewDoc&docId=7&docFatherId=1&level=sub
There was *four* jet engines in the UK under R&D:
♦ *Two centrifugal,* by Whittle (Rover) and Frank Halford (DeHaviland);
♦ *Two axial-flow,* by Metro-Vick and Griffiths (Rolls Royce).
Hans von Ohain built the first jet engine and was successfully flight tested on August 27th 1939.
Two years before Whittle.
There were 18 turbojet engines under development in Germany during WW2... the first successful production turbojet engine was also the first to enter operation service.
The Jumo 004b engines were the most produced and the most successful design developed during WW2.
@@sandervanderkammen9230
The 1st modern turbojet was run on a test bed by Whittle. The 1939 German engine was so poor the British would never have put anything so bad into the air. It was so bad German funding was taken away from jet engine R&D.
The first British plane into the air in 1941 was a complete _reliable_ jet plane, that could have gone into action.
The British were way ahead of the Germans in engine technology in both centrifugal and axial-flow designs.
.
@@johnburns4017 The first turbojet engine was constructed in Germany by Max Hahnn and Hans von Ohain in 1934, two years before Frank Whittle began any work on jet engines.
The first successful test flight of a Turbojet engine was the Heinkel He-178 it flew powered by Hans von Ohain's jet engine on August 27th 1939.
Frank Whittle did not invent the turbo jet engine nor was he the first to build or successfully flight test.
@@johnburns4017 The Gloster E.28 was only the FOURTH aircraft design to fly under jet propulsion (without propeller)... not the first
Whittle is the inventor of the turbojet engine. Had the British government and RAF the foresight to fund the man, it is conceivable that the RAF could have had a jet powered interceptor before the war.
Instead the UK government obstructed him, by forcing him to work with Rover. Rover was supposed to be doing development for production. In fact they made many design revisions but refused to carry out design changes he wanted. One example was a twist in the fan blades, which Rover refused to make. Once the contract was taken over by Rolls Royce,they made the revised fan blades and increased efficiency and eliminated a surge problem. That had cost a year's delay
@@psk1w1
Rolls Royce took over the jet engine and gave Rover the Meteor tank engine, it worked out well in the end.
Frank Whittle did not invent the turbojet engine..
@@psk1w1 Adrian Lombard at Rover and Stanley Hooker at Rolls-Royce were the real genius behind the British efforts to develop turbojet engines.
But Lombard refused to work with Whittle as he had become increasingly addled by drug addiction and alcoholism.
After Whittle was arrested for assaulting a Rolls-Royce engineer with a deadly weapon Whittle was shunned by both the RAE and industry experts.
Whittle's career stalled and in 1946 he would be sacked during the Miles M.52 scandal. Accused of embezzlement and dereliction he was removed from his own company and exiled to the U.S. for drug rehabilitation. Whittle would never work in the U.K. aircraft industry again.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Have any proof of this?
Note: The German jets based from the outset on the principle of axiale compression, now generally accepted standard. The British engineers understood this advantage only from 1947 and until 1950 had with the Rolls-Royce Avon a production-ready model of this type.
The US Americans were consistent: just steal all German Jet documents, including jets and developed them further on this basis.. This guaranteed them the lead in aircraft for many decades.
Whittle has certainly share in the development of the jet. But von Ohains share it is much greater.
+pavel peters I don't think Whittle deserve any significant share in the development of the jet other than the fact that he was working for the good guys and Von Ohain for the bad guys. Whittle's flawed design of 1930 has nothing to do with todays state of the art high by pass turbofans we are flying..Maxime Guillaume of France invented the axial flow compressor principle in 1921 that was copied by A.A Griffith for his 1926 book ..
You are right , all American post war jet engine designs and developments are based on what they learnt from German scientists who was brought to the US with Operation Paperclip .
soaringtractor i write british engineers.
Only experiments. In and after the war all German documents were stolen, but also brought from Ohain (1947) and Whittle (1942) in the USA. If your hypothesis were true, what would have the two men needed?
+pavel peters - No actually von Ohain's engine was a centrifugal unit. The British including A.A. Griffiths and Whittle all investigated axial designs but rightly concluded that materials science was not sufficiently advanced at the time.
This was proven to be the correct approach by the dramatically superior thrust, reliability and life of Whittle and DeHavilland jet engines compared to the BMW and Junkers units during WWII.
+FORBAN2 von Ohain himself is quoted as saying "We felt that it looked like a patent of an idea" "we thought that it was not seriously being worked on." (he was wrong) As Ohain's patent was not filed until 1935 this evidence clearly shows that he had read Whittle's patent and had even critiqued it some 2 years before his own engine ran.
''VON OHAIN: Our patent claims had to be narrowed in comparison to Whittle’s because Whittle showed certain things."'' (clearly this was during the preparation of his patent that was later filed in 1935).
''"When I saw Whittle’s patent I was almost convinced that it had something to do with boundary layer suction combinations. It had a two-flow, dual entrance flow radial flow compressor that looked monstrous from an engine point of view. Its flow reversal looked to us to be an undesirable thing, but it turned out that it wasn't so bad after all though it gave some minor instability problems.
This demonstrates prior knowledge which invalidates the claim that von Ohain was unaware of Whittle’s work. Von Ohain’s own statements then continue and upon reviewing Whittle’s patent, he offers his own critique. “We felt it looked like a patent of an idea. You find many idea patents. For an invention it is not necessary that you build it." "We thought that is was not seriously being worked on."''
Oh and Whittle developed the concept of the turbofan early on in his designs and it was Rolls Royce with the Conway that was the first company to produce one...
And before you go on about axial engines - Metrovick had one flying in the UK in 1943... oops!
+FORBAN2 The German engines were no more advanced than British axial engines like the Metrovick F2 which flew in 1943 and in fact British engines were much more advanced in metallurgical terms. The centrifugal (Whittle type) engines were more powerful and much more reliable that the German WWII engines which had a life measured in tens of hours. The RR Avon axial turbojet is still in production and a ground based gas turbine and the aero version was in production until 1974... So... not so German then...
They found copies of Frank Wittles notes in the library : )
That false urban myth doesn't hold water...
What FUNN! Just had a review of all the bullshit comments about my original post on this subject! HO HUM.....NEXT!
Not true or accurate. He is not the first to conceive of a Jet.
Nonsense
Ja, Ja.............. Hans Von Ohain its spelled Frank Whittle...............
no! original blueprint came from shenzhen!
LoL 🤣
Gemini genius Whittle's patent was years ahead of the young opportunist Von Ohain.
Jet Man | Frank Whittle The Turbojet Pioneer And Genius Of The Jet Revolution | Full Documentary
ua-cam.com/video/G0T4-XG612Q/v-deo.html
Maxime Guillaume patented the turbojet aircraft engine in 1921 while a 14 year-old Frankie was still wearing short pants.
Whittle was not first to achieve anything related to jets and was only the fourth person to successfully demonstrate a working jet aircraft engine
Hans Von Ohain was a charleton. He based his work on Whittle's patents.
Charleton how?
@@peterson7082
Ohain copied whittles patents and tried to lie about it.
He has contributed more than anyone else..I hate the Word FATHER of something but if you insist, Von Ohain is the father of the jet engine.
Absolute rubbish.
Coronado326 More bullshit this time fvom a Belgian NOBODY who is known to lie to suit his own twisted agenda
+Complete Aerogeek Are you sure? His engines where axial like all jet engines are today..... That was not a Whittle design ........... but think what you want to think it's a free world.
+Coronado326 Von Ohain is the 'father' of a hair-dryer powered glider and nothing else.
Von Ohain may be the step father of the jet but that's about it.
Whittle had his patent approved when von Ohain was still in college. Von Ohain read and critiqued Whittle patents and discussed them in detail as he states in his biography.
Whittle's engine ran 6 months before von Ohain's and von Ohain's engine never went into production anywhere nor did anyone base an engine on his design.. His claim to fame was getting a 'rough and ready' engine into the air with the huge backing from Heinkel.
Whittle's engines were used widely post war by the US, France, Russia, China and others. His design is the basis for almost all turboprops in production and flying today
Von Ohain? Not so much.
More youtube bollocks. The axial flow engine was conceived by many engineers in the 1920s. The problem was it was always recognised the technology did not exist to make the engine reliable - as the Germans found out. Whittle was well aware that the simple axial flow engine was preferable but knew it would be unreliable. He chose to develop the centrifugal engine for practical reasons.
First jet flight - German, first twin engine flight - German, first operational fighter unit - German....Even R/R tossed the centrifugal design in the bin by 1950 for axial (avon) as.it was a dead end design The limitation of the Me262 axial engine were due to shortages of exotic metals - not design. Besides it could be swapped out in an hour and could be services and reused.
Interesting theory, except that the Jumo 004 engine exceeded the 100 hrs PFTR standards of both the RAF and USSAF during WW2.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 "If I could have fitted the Meteor engines to the Me 262 airframe I would have had the best fighter in the world" Adolf Galland.
@@fritzfieldwrangle-clouder7299 You could not fit Meteor engines on the Messerschmitt Me-262, they were too big and heavy... centrifugal turbojet engines were a dead-end design.
@@fritzfieldwrangle-clouder7299 You could not fit Meteor engines on the Messerschmitt Me-262, they were too big and heavy... centrifugal turbojet engines were a dead-end design.
It's funny to go from top comments, to newest, 641 comments over 3 years and it's still the same argument.
Some people refuse to believe the truth that Germany invented turbojet engines.
They can set whatever they want but without the germans there will be no jet engined aircraft
@@flammenwerfer6548 Unless you believe Hans von Ohain himself. Here is what he had to say in his foreword to the book 'Elements of Propulsion, Gas Turbines and Rockets'-
"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced,
was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for
in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed
by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the
compressor, and an exhaust nozzle."
and
"From the beginning of his jet propulsion activities, Frank Whittle had been
seeking means for improving the propulsive efficiency of turbojet engines. ¶ He
conceived novel ideas for which he filed a patent application in 1936, which
can be called a bypass engine or turbofan. To avoid a complete new design,
Whittle sought an interim solution that could be merely "tacked on" to a jet
engine. This configuration was later known as the aft fan. Whittle's work on
fan jets or bypass engines and aft fans was way ahead of his time. It was of
greatest importance for the future or turbopropulsion."
@@sandervanderkammen9230 And they'd be right wouldn't they Sandyboy because even you say that Germany didn't invent turbojet engines, at least when yo want it to be a Frenchman.
@@flammenwerfer6548 What does that famous GERMAN jet engineer Pabst von Ohain say about it -
"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced,
was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for
in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed
by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the
compressor, and an exhaust nozzle."
and
"From the beginning of his jet propulsion activities, Frank Whittle had been
seeking means for improving the propulsive efficiency of turbojet engines. He
conceived novel ideas for which he filed a patent application in 1936, which
can be called a bypass engine or turbofan. To avoid a complete new design,
Whittle sought an interim solution that could be merely "tacked on" to a jet
engine. This configuration was later known as the aft fan. Whittle's work on
fan jets or bypass engines and aft fans was way ahead of his time. It was of
greatest importance for the future or turbopropulsion."
Ahhh Mr Tractor, the Junkers Jumo 004 also took several years from testing to flight and its problems with short life and turbine fragility were not solved by war's end.
The Metrovick F2 went on to be the basis of the Armstrong Siddeley Sapphire a very successful engine which was licence built in the US as the J-65.
Time for some more homework?
Oh you silly person-who did you buy the UK from the Chinese? After all they own the US. Talk about fat and broke...
+Complete Aerogeek Wat is your debt again? Over 19 trillion ? The US wanted and got what they wanted so bad ( Obama )...... Divide 19 trillion by 325 million. Good luck patriot ;)
Ahhh my country's economy is doing very nicely thank you little troll. Oh and I'm not British. Just well informed...
+Complete Aerogeek Over 20 Trillion before he leaves and by the way you react you are one of those liberals one of those whos still thinking the F35 will be a succes one day. Wake up please. I don't wish this missery upon you ok. When that's what you think ur so wrong!
You don't seem to be able to read very well. I'm not British not do I live in the UK so your dribble means very little to me however to your point perhaps you would have preferred the previous president who got you into two wars (one of them illegal) and broke the economy in the process while overseeing the GFC.
That's some track record. Perhaps you would prefer the 11% plus unemployment rate when Obama took office to the 5.9% now...
Bring on Trump hehe....
Love reading all these 'bus queue experts' arguing about patent this and patent that! How many of you have a patent and understand the patent process. the fact stands that Whittle came up with the first working engine,.... Compressor, combustion chamber, turbine outlet nozzle. Anybody after that (that saw the patent and claims an original idea) is either talking shit, or filed a patent that was written to bypass the claims contained within!
Not to mention that in von Ohain's biography, he talks about examining Whittle''s patent (describing it in detail) and having to change his own as a result. This in 1935!
+Complete Aerogeek very true. Anybody with a patent or familier with the patent process can see that his manipulation of wittles ideas and claims was nothing more than a palming off of somebody elses ideas as his own! Don't believe for one minute that Ohain would have admitted plagerism! He wasn't a humble, modest man like whittle!
To be fair he did alter is patent by using a radial inflow turbine (centrifugal) but the engine had so many problems Heinkel dropped it.
Also to be fair his engine did power the first jet aircraft thanks to Heinkel's enormous resources but just think if Whittle had enjoyed the resources of the Air Ministry and the RAE behind him from the start. The RAF might have had an E28 derived fighter in the Battle of Britain. It was that close.
Indeed, whittles engines would have powered the first aircraft before Ohain even filed a patent, if he'd had the backing that Ohain had!
THE END.
Interesting but I think four points are overlooked. First, we in the UK kept out technology secret and it gives the impression we were years behind. Sir Frank Whittle was aware of axial compressors but decided to go radial because it is relatively easier to manufacture. The Third point the compressor is the cold end of the engine so it not material limited, and both Hann and Whittle used similar blades at the hot end, and here the UK had a clear lead. Fourthly, the first design for a jet, independently proposed around the time of WW1 where the UK design would have used a Desiel powered compressor, and in the USA a similar compressor using a petrol engine, and if these designs had been followed up they would have been much more efficient. Bring on the Turbo-compound engine.
Not strictly true that compressor is cold end. The average compression ratio is between 20 and 25:1, this gives a considerable rise in air temperature, and hence compressor blade temperature, at combustion end. This causes the compressor blades to expand, and as you need a negligable gap between engine casing and blade for maximum compression efficiency, there is a chance of blades hitting engine casing. The high rotational speed also causes the blade to stretch due to centrifugal force. These problems were evenually overcome by using blade cooling holes and blades grown from single crystal to control how blades expanded and also behaved under stress. There is not a similar problem with the turbine because a ring is placed around the turbine blades to contain them. There is a different problem with the turbine blades, and that is that they can melt at required temperature for thermodynamic efficiency, hence thay are made from nickel/steel alloy.
The fact is Whittle did not have the engineering experience to construct a functional axial compressor, this was pointed out the RAE Chief of aircraft engine development A.A Griffiths. Who also exposed Whittle for plagiarizing his 1926 paper on axial turboshaft engines.
Whittle would never construct any engine with a axial compressor during his short career in the aircraft industry.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Here's what Pabst von Ohain had to say-
"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced,
was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for
in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed
by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the
compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today"
Note the presence of axial flow compressors.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 By the way Sandyboy, you've got some more dates wrong by several years. Griffiths wasn't chief of dev at RAE until 1938.
And I'm still waiting for you to produce any evidence of any claim of Whittle plagiarising any of Griffith's work. You haven't got any have you Sandyboy.
Actually, a good sentence fits
"The victors write the story"
The next sentence that fits even better.
"The losers try to rewrite the story"
No way. You'r simply regurgitating the usual "we were so hard done by" garbage emerging out of eastern Germany again. Facts are facts.
You mean like Fritz Fischer.
Frank Whittle had already patented a jet engine design before Ohain was 21! Whittle conceived, patented and produced the first jet engine.
noonsight2010 Ifr I hear one more Englishman tell me how 'their' little Frank made a fucking jet engine with a tin can and a bit of fence wire - I swear I'll puke all over my keyboard
spottydog4477 What are you, a sad little Nazi who likes to rewrite history to suit yourself?
The Germans developed axial flow engines..not the half -arsed centrifugal engine whittle made....by '47 R/R were building variants of the BMW003...
spottydog4477 Irrelevant. Whittle invented the jet engine. The Germans came up with a variant of Whittle's concept. Go and learn some history, you ignorant fool. Next you'll be claiming Sony invented television or that Germany invented the Enigma machine!
noonsight2010 You are completely irrelevant dude, Whittle never invented anything..German engine had nothing to do with Whittles flawed design, even Whittle admitted it in 1978 ,officially that Von Ohain's concept was different from his..
Whittle's engine was obsolete and outdated the moment it entered service. The axial
flow engine is the type that is most commonly used these days, be it to power
aircraft, ships or power stations. The axial flow compressor, later used by the vast
majority of all jet engines, was invented by Frenchman, Maxime Guillaume in
1921 and it was Dr Anselm Franz who built the first operational axial flow engine ... Just as Logey Baird didn't invent the
modern television ( his was a mechanical design with vital components invented in Germany by PAUL NIPKOW ) , Whittle is not responsible for the modern jet engine.
Your need for education is greater than spottydog4477 !
Frank Whittle was the first to register a patent for the turbojet engine in 1930. Hans von Ohain was granted a patent for his turbojet engine in 1936. However, Hans von Ohain's jet was the first to fly in 1939. Frank Whittle's jet first flew in in 1941.
The Geemans had Whittles patients before any development took place.
That's a popular myth in the UK, but Whittle's patent was invalid and infringed on a pre-existing patent which is why in 1935 he allowed to expire.
Maxime Guillaume patented the turbojet aircraft engine in 1921 while a 14 year-old boy named Frankie was still wearing short pants.
@@freddykabulaschnitza2475 Whittle had A.A. Griffiths technical paper published in 1926 which he was caught plagiarizing.
Whittle also received a patent infringement warning from Maxime Guillaume 1934 so he was also aware of the earlier patent.
Whittle was also aware of the Swiss _Brown, Boveri und Cie_ Velox gas turbine engine which was demonstrated at UMIST in Manchester just 2 years after in was demonstrated in Germany in 1932.
Whittle was not the first to achieve anything related to the development of jet engines and was only the 4th person to successfully demonstrate a working jet aircraft engine.
Hans von Ohain. This would be the guy that built a totally unsuccessful jet engine from Frank Whittles design drawings.
+agt155 This theory has been debunked over and over again ! even by the usually biased British sources:
www.britainunlimited.com/Biogs/frank-whittle.htm
1978: Begins to work part time. Meets Ohain for the second time at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base while Ohain was working there as the Aero Propulsion Laboratory's Chief Scientist. He became convinced that Ohain had worked independently to his original Patent. The two became friends and went on lecture tours of the U.S.A together.
As scientists Von Ohain would outclass Whittle many times over
www.nap.edu/read/10403/chapter/44
Von Ohain had the unique opportunity to observe the development of his original invention over almost sixty years, and to work in research on the many innovations for the turbojet engine for more than forty of those years. He is credited with fifty German patents and more than twenty U. S. patents.
But the British have all the reason to feel so embarrassed that the first jet powered aircraft was German and it flew two years before ....
+FORBAN2 lol...good try but sadly for you not the truth. Those who worked with Von Ohain painted a very different story.
"In later years von Ohain denied that he knew anything of Whittle's patent but his colleague Dipl-Ing Wilmhelm Gundermann, who worked with him at Heinkel from the begining of April 1936 recorded 'We kept fully up-to-date with such patents as Whittles"
Another German Fraud.
agt155 inventors.about.com/library/graphics/whittle_von_hain.jpg
The picture is not fraud..Whittle officially confessed that it was original and not a copy... In all American documents its also confirmed..Deal with it mate.
You guys been defeated in the race
''We kept fully up-to-date with such patents as Whittles''
Its the duty of the international patent office to inform every applicant about similar applications or patents that have been granted so that they can avoid any future infringement lawsuits..
After the war, von Ohains patent had not been cancelled, you can be sure the Brits and the Americans, still the closest ally at least until 70's , have done everything to find a reason to cancel Von Ohains patent, they couldn't find a singe one..
Sorry mate,you have your view and then there is reality..
Margaret Conner's ( I know the source you are referring to ) anecdotal evidence is hardly a proof.. I myself read another book in which there is another interesting point .. Von Ohain and Gundermann didn't always had good relationship, the reason was that Von Ohain chose Max Hahn as his right hand man
and Gundermann was not very happy about that ..
But anyway, it was WHITTLE himself who put an end to all these speculations in 1978.You can ignore everything else.
.
+FORBAN2 How would Whittle know the extent to which Von Ohain was copying his work? We know for a fact that Von Ohain studied Whittles patents and is therefore a liar, he has even admitted himself in print to having been inspired by WHittle's 1930 patent which he believed had been forgotten about. Von ohains copy was just a small insignificant footnote in jet engine history whilst Whittle's engines continue to power the world.
agt155 ''whilst Whittle's engines continue to power the world.''
Whittles engines continue to power British aviation forums and feeding the trolls.
15 minutes flight of He 178, using the He S3B engine, made its maiden flight on 27 August 1939 changed the world.. There is nothing you can do to change facts mate.
Whittles 1930 design never produced a workable engine, it was outdated before it flew .
Von Ohain is the man .... Definitely..British are always jealous of other nations achievements.. The fact that Von Ohain flew first still hurts.
18tangles its the victors who write the history books............
NO Von Ohain's engine flew first because of the enormous funding and technical support from Heinkel but he still deserves the credit for it. A very impressive achievement.
What he did not do was invent the jet engine independently or run a full scale jet engine first. Those were undeniable Whittle achievements
von Ohain had read and critiqued the 1930/31 Whittle's patents before he even filed his own in 1935 and before he commenced trying to make an engine. He details this in his biography in detail.
von Ohain;s engine while a good attempt was never developed into a production engine. The design had too many flaws.
18tangles I know. They think if they repeat it often enough it will become true. Wasn't that a central tenet of the Nazi party?
Beliefs are irrelevant so is ranting. The historical record is clear on this one
They worship von Ohain except when he says in his own words that he read and critiqued Whittle's patents before trying to patent and build his own engine....
The truth is a bummer. This does not take anything away from von Ohain who was a brilliant man but facts are facts. The rest is delusion.
Take off your jack-boots and coal skuttle helmet and walk away from the mirror, FORBAN2.
Agreed, but who cares? The Brits had done fuck all by then. So many years, ridiculous. Scratching their heads over something, so something had to be fundamentally wrong with the British jet so they had to copy the Germans.
In the 30's the Germans were poring over every engine patent from the U.K. and U.S. as soon as they came out since there was an intense competion in improving engine designs. Whittle's patent was public, and those who studied them would no doubt assign the best physicist to study and develop it. Whittle was a pilot and he has described his motivation and train of thought leading to the turbojet. There's no doubt Ohain saw his patent and proceeded to design a nearly identical engine. Either pride or an oath he'd made kept him from admitting the truth.
_"Ohain saw his patent and proceeded to build a nearly identical engine"_
You sir must be completely blind or have never seen either engine... no statement has ever been more false and misleading.
Whittle's 1930 patent clearly shows an engine with a first stage axial compressor, canular combustors and a axial turbine.
Hans von Ohain's engine features a single stage centrifugal compressor, annular combustor and a completely unique centrifugal turbine design.
The two men could not have come up with more different engines..
You clearly have no credibility whatsoever.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Although the idea of jet power dates back centuries, Sir Frank Whittle and Hans von Ohain of Germany independently developed their first prototype turbojets in the late 1930s. They didn't know each other at that point. In 1947, as part of Operation Overcast, Hans von Ohain was brought to the USA by the Americans, like many other German engineers with inventions relevant to military technology. First he started for the U.S. Air Force and helped them develop their own jet aircraft. In 1956 Pabst von Ohain became director of the Air Force Research Laboratory; In 1975 he was promoted to chief developer of the Aero Propulsion Laboratory. After his retirement, Hans von Ohain taught from 1982 at the Research Institute of the University of Dayton. Frank Whittle and Hans von Ohain had been very close friends since the 1960s. In an interview with both inventors, they themselves said that the development and the path to the goal were fundamentally different.
Sooo, we know the train of thought that led Whittle to the idea. What was Ohain's. He was a brilliant physicist, but was he obsessed with aircraft engines and high speed like a lowly pilot in England who first thought of a fan in the fuselage driven by a piston engine, pictured it, obsessed on it, wanted to get rid of that damned piston engine with all its parts "jerking back and forth", then saw that airflow down a tube and later thought- "hey, put a turbine wheel in that flow and "up" the compression ratio and drive the compressor with it and you wont need a damned piston engine, and hey, the unused energy would provide a reactive thrust. Now fiddlesticks, why didn't I think of that before?? But I guess that whole train of thought popped into Ohain's head as one thought as he was doing physics equations one night (a couple of years after Whittle's patent was made public).
Please spare us the brit propaganda myths, Whittle's patent was not the first...
Maxime Guillaume patented the turbojet 9 years before Whittle.
Unless you are blind, you do not need to be an engineer to see that Hans von Ohain's design is completely unrelated and not influenced by Whittle's patent.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Guillaume's patent was flawed due to compressor problems. It would never have worked. These problems were solved by A.A.Griffiths in 1926. Whittles patent and working prototype were the first. No propaganda. Just facts.
@@youtischia Sorry but you are very confused and misinformed.
Whittle's patent was not first nor was it ever constructed Whittle's design suffered the same problem as Guillaume's compressor.
Frank Whittle would never build a axial compressor.
Hans von Ohain was first to build a successful turbojet engine... end of story.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Alas for you the story goes on. Here is what Ohain himself had to say-
"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced,
was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for
in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed
by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the
compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..."
Note the axial compressors.
And as for his own patent, he says-
"In early 1935, I worked out a patent for the various features of a gas turbine
consisting of radial outflow compressor rotor, combustor, radial inflow turbine,
and a central exhaust thrust nozzle."
Note the absence of any axial elements.
Those quotes are from Ohain's foreword to 'Elements of Propulsion, Gas turbines and Rockets'. In that foreword Ohain also describes how all the projects he worked on in those war years were cancelled or delayed so that they never went into production.
It all comes down to the invention of the steam turbine by Parsons in the 1880's. Its eventual adaptation to internal combustion was inevitable. Nobody is the father of the jet engine, several people worked on it more or less independently and one happened to be the first to put it into the air. Others were not so lucky as to secure enough resources to realize their dream in time or at all. Arkhip Lyulka patented a turbofan in 1935. Jendrassik Gyorgy patented a turboprop in 1929.
Lucian Ene
You have to distinguish between a turbine and turbojet. The turbojet was down to Whittle in the UK.
The first successful flightworthy jet engine was designed by Hans von Ohain and flew on August 27th 1939 2 years before Frank Whittle.
@@johnburns4017
There is no distinction. The turbojet is one particular configuration of the gas turbine engine, specifically one in which the greater part of the useful power is delivered in the form of the kinetic energy of the exhaust gas instead of mechanical work transmitted to a shaft.
@@lucianene7741
There is a distinction. Whittle invented the *turbojet* advance.
I guess no.
The first successful demonstration of jet aircraft engine was on August 27th 1939 in Rostock Germany by Hans von Ohain and Max Hahnn..
Frank Whittle was only the 4th person to make a successful demonstration of the jet engine.
@@sandervanderkammen9230
dockorbimmer, a quiz
Name the inventor of the turbojet engine?
20 points for the correct answer.
@@johnburns4017 *WINNER! The correct answer is Hans von Ohain and Max Hahnn.*
@@sandervanderkammen9230
*BZZZZZT!* Wrong answer.
doktorbimmer, the name of the the inventor of the turbojet engine is..
🎈🍾🎊 *Frank Whittle* 🎈🍾🎊
Zero points docktorboimmer. Zero. Better luck next time.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Sandyboy once again for you, from Pabst von Ohain himself-
"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced,
was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for
in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed
by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the
compressor, and an exhaust nozzle."
Note the word 'first'.
And
"From the beginning of his jet propulsion activities, Frank Whittle had been
seeking means for improving the propulsive efficiency of turbojet engines. He
conceived novel ideas for which he filed a patent application in 1936, which
can be called a bypass engine or turbofan. To avoid a complete new design,
Whittle sought an interim solution that could be merely "tacked on" to a jet
engine. This configuration was later known as the aft fan. Whittle's work on
fan jets or bypass engines and aft fans was way ahead of his time. It was of
greatest importance for the future or turbopropulsion."
Note the words 'way ahead of his time'
It was Frank Whittle. Metrovic had an axial turbine in 1942.
More propaganda...
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Your posts generally are. But at least you kept that bit of propaganda down to two words.
He was the father of the jet engine..He was ahead of Whittle and the British.
Germans gave the world the Jet engine and the jet fighter and not the Brits.
What is even more is that the radial flow engine that Whittle created was dropped, today everybody uses the axial flow engine that Ohain created.
Gary Tarr WRONG gain ..He patented his idea for a turbojet in 1930 ! Patent doesn't mean invention.
you can design your own engine and patent it.
It remains just an idea which becomes reality if you can build something to prove that it works . Von Ohains engine run in March 1937 , weeks before Whittle's. Germans were the first.. Period..The first jet powered aircraft to fly was the Heinkel He 178, on 27-8-1939, powered by a Heinkel He S 3B engine.Two years before Whittle ..LOL
Dreachon Whittle design was outdated soon after WW2 ,in 1950 it as considered behind the times .The axial flow compressor, later used by the vast majority of all jet engines, was invented and patented by Frenchman, Maxime Guillaume in 1921. Dr Amselm Franz in Nazi Germany built the first jet engine based on this concept to power the M262.
The first four engined jet to fly was the Arado AR 234C, in April 1944. It was powered by four axial flow BMW 003 jet engines.
They were miles ahead of the Brits in Jet propulsion technology, miles ...The father of the BMW 003 , Herman Östrich went to France after the war, hired by Marcel Dassault and created the first French fighter jet engine ATAR for Mirage III he was also the first technical director of the SNECMA ...
Some people simply can't distinguish between facts and fiction ..
barracuda7018
Indeed, the germans made a lot of marvellous breakthroughs, it was a shame however that many were perverted to serve such a corrupt regime.
Gary Tarr If I hear just one more Brit tell me their 'little Frank' made the jet engine all on his own with an empty tin can and a piece of fence wire - I'll puke all over this keyboard!
Frank Whittle did not invent the jet aircraft engine and was not the first patent, he was only the 4th person to successfully demonstrate a jet aircraft engine. His only valid claim is being the first in the U.K.
." As Ohain's patent was not filed until 1935, this admission clearly shows that he had read Whittle's patent and had even critiqued it in some detail prior to filing his own patent and some 2 years before his own engine ran.
VON OHAIN: ″Our patent claims had to be narrowed in comparison to Whittle’s because Whittle showed certain things." "When I saw Whittle's patent, I was almost convinced that it had something to do with boundary layer suction combinations. It had a two-flow, dual entrance flow radial flow compressor that looked monstrous from an engine point of view. Its flow reversal looked to us to be an undesirable thing but it turned out that it wasn't so bad after although it gave some minor instability problems.″
@@freddykabulaschnitza2475 *As Frank Whittle's patent was not filed until 1930.*
Maxime Guillaume patented the turbojet aircraft engine in 1921 while a 14 year-old Frankie was still wearing short pants.
A.A. Griffiths chief of engine development at the Royal Aircraft Establishment also critiqued Whittle's patent... and exposed him for outright plagiarism of his technical paper published in 1926, it was given to Whittle while he attended Cranwell.
Griffiths was also puzzled by Whittle's patent design, pointing out several egregious flaws that would have made the engine unworkable.
Of course we know in hindsight that Whittle would never construct the 1930 engine and would start over from scratch in 1936.
Complete and utter lies, Whittle's 1930 patent clearly shows a Axial first stage compressor.
Even the most tertiary examination of Hans von Ohains prototype and Whittle's 1930 design clearly reveals that they bare no resemblance or features in common.
Whittle would never construct any engine with a Axial compressor and as Griffiths pointed out, Whittle clearly had no understanding of how they worked.
Any questions lad?
What is so mind blowing is that the ME 262 first flew on April 18th 1941, and yet it did not see combat until July 25th 1944............27 months later.
There were 1400 ME 262's built, yet only 300 ever saw combat Hitler's lack of understanding the 262 as a fighter, combined with an initial lack of interest on the part of the German high command doomed the Luftwaffe. Had the Nazi's imagination been equal to their desire to rule the world, thousands of ME 262's would have been produced beginning in 1941 when they could have made a difference. All in all, brilliant concept but far to little to late.
The Me 262 in 1941 had a piston engine and straight wings, 1942 when it flew with the BMW engines both failed and after a lot of redesign it was fitted with the Jumo engines but they were not reliable and not ready until 1944, the reason so few flew, apart from a lack of experienced pilots was a lack of engines. No Me 262`s could have been made in 1941 unless they had piston engines. Even in late 1944 the Me 262 was a poor fighter.
@@barrierodliffe4155 Lack of usable engines - the Jumo engine was rubbish, and lasted 10-12 hours. And a shortage of fuel. And a shortage of pilots capable of flying the thing. Bit of a waste of effort really
Those germans...no matter what they say...THEY ARE truly SOMETHING...
What did they do?
@@johnburns4017 creating the 21st Century...they created NASA...Paper Clip Operation...being defeated in 1945, their designs where used by the US Force, to be the most important country of the 20th Century...advances in medical, physics, warfare, have been used by. The WW2 Winners to create what we have now...
@@gilbertorosales5317
The British were way ahead of them. The British were unimpressed with what the Germans did apart from some guided missile work. The British were way ahead in radar, electronic computers, jet engines, jet planes, etc.
The USA grabbed the German engineers because the USA was so far behind everyone.
@@johnburns4017 by my comment, I don't mean, others were worthless...so, if I said something, I don't want this to be misunderstood...british have to do with development...for sure...
@@johnburns4017 you are right....
von Ohain made an important contribution but Whittle was the 'father' of the turbojet engine. He was the first to propose a gas turbine engine using thrust for propulsion instead of a shaft horsepower like a turboprop. He patented his idea in 1930.
It is a verifiable fact (in his own words) that von Ohain thoroughly read and critiqued Whittle's patents and even changed his own application as a result, before designing and building his own engine.
Whittle ran his engine in April 1937-6 months ahead of Ohain despite the German's huge backing from Heinkel.
When you conceive, design, patent and build something before anyone else and then prove the concept by running an example, you are the inventor or 'father' if you like. That is a historical fact. Not a revisionist dream...
a PhD Dissertation from CAMBRIDGE
The ideas and concepts of gas turbines and jet propulsion were not new. One of the
earliest known examples of jet propulsion was given ~2000 years ago by Hero of Alexandria,
who demonstrated the principle by revolving a bronze sphere using steam jets. Jet propulsion
was also known to the Chinese, who used the principle thousands of years ago in fireworks
rockets. At the beginning of this century, René Lorin (1908) and Henri-Fabrice Melot (1917)
suggested using the exhaust gases of a combustion engine for propulsion. The first ideas and
suggestions for a gas turbine engine for aircraft propulsion came from Maxime Guillaume in
1921. Fig. 1 is from his patent which was granted in 1922 and shows the main components of
such an engine with a multistage axial compressor, combustion chamber, fuel injection, axial
turbine and starter.
Fig. 1: French Patent N. 534801 for a Gas Turbine Granted to Maxime Guillaume in 1922
(Reproduced from Bölkow [7])
Frank Whittle and Hans Joachim Pabst von Ohain are credited with being the first to use
gas turbines for aircraft propulsion. Independently and without knowing of each other they
developed aircraft gas turbines.
Their test engines ran and produced thrust for the first time in the
spring of 1937. Whittle was the first of the two men to be involved with this technology and in
1930 he was granted his first patent for an aircraft gas turbine. Von Ohain worked on the subject
Von Ohain worked on the subject
during his dissertation at the University of Göttingen. His first test engine was built in 1935.
Although it was not self-sustaining, Von Ohain did measure a reduction in the load of the driving
motor. Further development, especially of the combustion chamber, lead to the Heinkel He S 3B
engine. On 27. August 1939 a Heinkel He 178 aircraft used this engine to make the first ever
flight powered by an aircraft gas turbine. Whittle’s developments resulted in the W-1 engine,
which first flew on 15. May 1941 in a Gloster E 28/29 aircraft.
Von Ohain worked on the subject..
www-diva.eng.cam.ac.uk/theses/endwall-film-cooling-in-axial-flow-turbines
Von Ohain not only designed the first Turbojet but also run one before Whittle and flew before Whittle.
A fact you idiots can't deny....
barracuda7018
You are the most desperately delusional fool. It’s sad really. defending the indefensible is what Germans did during WWII.
By the way-trolls spout inflammatory nonsense on websites to upset normal posters just as you do on every site you infest. You are a laughingstock all over the web….
Anyway onto your desperate blather:
A couple of facts for you:
Von Ohain hadn’t even filed his patent until late 1935 much less started work on his engine.(look up the documents)
Instead of spouting childish insults why don’t you try reading his own words in his biography?
No, that might mess up your distorted view of the world. You wouldn’t want to be presented with facts would you?
Now on to that thesis.
Actually having a postgraduate degree and having written a thesis, I know how errors can creep in even from seemingly reliable sources.
Writing a thesis does not make you immune to error. Also papers like this are not peer reviewed in the normal sense, they are marked by your course mentors.
Let’s see how we go here:
T"he Englishman was overtaken by Ohain, who had begun a fruitful collaboration with the Heinkel aircraft company and who ran a static test of his first engine in 1935."
Unfortunately our PhD student did not do his research properly. Try this:
“On 10 November 1935, Ohain filed patent 317/38 for a turbojet engine.” See: Margaret Conner, Hans von Ohain: Elegance in Flight (Reston, Virginia: American Institute for Aeronautics and Astronautics,Inc., 2001), page 34. Copies of some pages from this patent appear (with English translations) on pages 125 and 126."
Oops: Von Ohain was only invited to talk to Heinkel in 1936!
“In 1936, while working for Pohl, von Ohain earned a patent on his version of jet engines, "Process and Apparatus for Producing Airstreams for Propelling Airplanes" (6 years after Whittle and after he had read all of Whittle's patents)
"In February 1936, Pohl wrote to Ernst Heinkel telling him of von Ohain's design and its possibilities. Heinkel arranged a meeting between his engineers and von Ohain during which he argued that the current "garage engine" would never work but that the concept upon which it was based was sound. The engineers were convinced and in April von Ohain and Hahn began working for Heinkel at the Marienehe airfield outside Rostock, in Warnemünde.
"While working at the University, von Ohain often took his sports car to be serviced at a local garage, Bartles and Becker. Here he met an automotive engineer, Max Hahn, and eventually arranged for him to build a model of his design for around 1,000 RM. The completed model larger in diameter than Whittle's 1937 fully working engine, although much shorter along the thrust axis.
"Von Ohain took the model to the University for testing but ran into serious problems with combustion stability. Often the fuel would not burn inside the flame cans and would be blown through the turbine sending shooting flames out the back and overheating the electric motor powering the compressor."
Oh and Ernst Heinkel's own diary showed the first self sustaining run of an Ohain engine was on September 1 1937... But hey he could be lying too...
איתי קאופמן Jet engine was not invented by Frank Whittle and I am neither British nor German..
איתי קאופמן Whittle's 1930 patent was flop..Von Ohains concept was more advanced...
barracuda7018 Von Ohain's engine did not go past the test stage and was never put into production. What do you think that was? Whittle engines are still flying today. History is the judge.
What is "whittle propoganda"?
I watched a video before this vid, said that whittle found it before the german did.
i think that's what he means. the victors write the history right?
Propaganda meaning the official story told in the UK falls well short of the historical record.
The British should tell it right
Yes patented by Whittle in 1930
@@codprawn Whittle was NOT the first to patent the turbojet engine, Maxime Guillaume was the first to patent the turbojet engine 9 years before Frank Whittle.
♦ Ohain did not design a reverse flow engine. His engine had a centrifugal compressor and a radial inflow (centrifugal turbine - a design never used in any production engine - this was a patent filed by Whittle. Ohain even commented on its unusual design when he read Whittle's patent prior to filing his own. From Ohain's biography:
_"When I saw Whittle’s patent I was almost convinced that it had something to do with boundary layer suction combinations. It had a two-flow, dual entrance flow radial flow compressor that looked monstrous from an engine point of view. Its flow reversal looked to us to be an undesirable thing, but it turned out that it wasn't so bad after all though it gave some minor instability problems."_
♦ Whittle's reverse flow design is the basis for almost all turboprop engines in production.
♦ Britain had axial-flow engines running in 1941 - the same time that Franz had his Jumo running. The Metrovick F.2 flew in a Meteor in 1943. The F.2 transpired into the Sapphire which the US built under licence as the J-65 and then modified it as the J-47.
♦ Westinghouse in the US was given a Whittle engine, and plans for improvements. They made such a hash of it that Whittle had to go to the US to assist. The US government gave the project to GE who made the I-16 which transpired into the first US built jet engine. The US licensed the Ghost for the P-80/T-33 and the RR Nene. The Nene was used by the Soviets in the MIG 15.
♦ Ohain's engine was not produced being shelved by 1943. No engine was built using his design.
♦ Whittle also R&D'd axial-flow engines. The metallurgy was not advanced enough at the time. Whittle's engines produced far more thrust than the German axial-flows and far more reliable.
♦ The PT-6, PWC 100/150 are derivatives of Whittle's designs being still produced.
♦ Whittle's centrifugal-flow engines were built under licence in the US after WW2 - the J-33, J-42 and J-48.
♦ The Olympus was the world's first 2 shaft turbojet and the first to exceed 10,000 pounds of thrust.
♦ The 1950 Avon was the first reliable axial-flow engine. Also the longest produced gas turbine in history being still in production as a land based generator.
♦ The RR Conway was the world's first turbofan.
♦ The RB-211 was the world's first 3 shaft turbofan.
♦ The Rolls Royce Trent was the world's first turboprop to fly.
♦ British axial-flows led the post war world in technology and power.
♦ The axial-flow Sapphire was built in the US as the J-65. The GE J-47 was based on the Sapphire.
*Frank Whittle invented the modern turbojet.*
The Jet engine was invented in Germany by Hans von Ohain.
@@sandervanderkammen9230
*Not this nut again.*
@@johnburns4017 Frank Whittle's jet engine was only the fourth design to successfully power a jet aircraft..
@@sandervanderkammen9230
*Not this nut again.*
@@johnburns4017 *John! WHERE IS THAT 2020 MAZDA ROTARY YOU PROMISED?????*
Amazing what Brits can do in a shed from clockwork radios to the jet engine
@Alexander Challis A propos the de Havilland Mosquito
Amazing what Germans can do in a shed from the printing press over the car, first glider, dynamo, jeans, x-rays, coffee filter, bicycle, rockets to the airship.
Also the TV (invented by Ferdinand Braun in 1906), the Computer (invented by Wilhelm Schickard in the early 1600s) and the telephone (invented by Phillip Reis in 1859) were German inventions. Ferdinand Braun got the Nobel Price for Physics in 1909 for it. Wilhelm Schickards machine was the first Computer in history and „das Pferd frisst keinen Gurkensalat“ (The horse doesn‘t eat cucumber salad) were the first words to be spoken trough a telephone.
The first jet engine was built in a car repair garage... in Germany.
See how the gerrys talk shit
The whole premise of this video is a lie. Hans von Ohain himself admitted that he based his work on the jet engine on the pioneering work of Frank Whittle, a UK engineer who founded Power Jets to develop the world's first jet engine project. Power Jets was poorly funded, whereas von Ohain had major industry funding. He got an engine to running condition first, but his engine was put into production when grossly under-developed
Whittle recognised that in the short term, a centrifugal compressor had advantages. Given the results, he was right... The British engine was much better, controllable, and durable. It had a routine service interval of 100 hours, and an indefinite service life. By contrast, the German jet engines were dangerous, difficult to control, and lasted around 10-12 hours before they were scrap. This was not just because of a shortage of high quality metals.
Yes, in the longer term, the centrifugal compressor was a dead end - as Whittle himself predicted. UK jet engine development went over to axial flow compressors.
The poster of this video is a Nazi apologist, desperate to make his idols look superior.
Paul: As much as I'm aware that Frank Whittle was the first to get a jet engine working, Hans Von Ohain new nothing about Frank Whittle's model because he had a different configuration. Or so I have read but then different articles and history books statements are not all the same.
@@unhooked25
Ohain copied whittles patents which were for centrifugal and axial jet engines, Ohain made a centrifugal jet engine but it was a failure, he worked for Heinkel, Junkers and BMW who also copied Whittles patents made centrifugal designs, IN Britain there was the Whittle centrifgual design which became the Rolls Royce Welland, Derwent and Nene, the Halford centrifugal and the Metropolitan Vickers axial flow, they were all better than the German attempts.
Barrie Rodliffe: I'm not contradicting your statement, I mean you're not the first one to tell me this and even someone sat beside me as I was typing this out to you and he's German. And even he has just confirmed your statement as to Ohain's awareness of Whittles patents. So if a German would say so, well I guess it must be true. But I heard that Frank Whittles ultimate test was an axial driving compressor and Ohain's was a centrifugal compressor. Is that true? Or were both men experimenting with both kinds?
Paul Standeven: I have heard that Frank Whittle had to scrounge from private resources to obtain a patent because at that time and according to an old English war veteran I know, many people believed he was trying to do something that was literally impossible. And also according to this man I know (who served and ground based anti aircraft gunner) people thought Frank Whittle was everything from overly optimistic to even insane....However tell me if you agree, If the British government and Rolls Royce along with all the big aircraft manufacturers, had taken Frank Whittle seriously and funded him right from the start, they would have had fully operational jet aircrafts before the war started. Not to mention make a heavier impact on the course of the war. Not to underestimate the Germans but correct me if you think I'm wrong. Cheers.....P.S. It's funny how there was no mention of Frank Whittle is this video.
@@unhooked25
My understanding is that Whittle patented both but decided to go with the simpler centrifugal jet engine, Ohain made a centrifugal jet engine.
Whittle was a crude mechanical engineer while Ohain specifics in thermodynamic , flow calculation etc moreover this was his direct study in university. To achieve such high mechanic tech like jet engine on those days. It could not be done by Whittle for sure. It could not be done by trial and error from coarse mechanic. But coulde be success by those who 're very full knowledge to the theory and subject.
Perhapse you are afraid of a few facts, Whittle was a graduate of the RAF college Cranwell where he completed a 3 year course in Aeronautical engineering, he then went to Cambridge University and received a doctorate in engineering. The greatest mass flow engineer of them all Hooker (Rolls Royce and Bristol's) was surprised how advanced Whittles work was. There is one difference between them In Britain an experimental aircraft could not fly until it's engine had a Flight standard certificate there was not the same requirement in Germany in 1938
alex Lo
The axial compressor was first demonstrated in England, the Germans were the first to get a production model running. While the Allies used centrifugal compressors because they were more reliable and better understood at the time. That’s part of the reason why the ME262 had to have entirely new engines every few hours. Axial jet technology wasn’t ready. It’s yet another example of the Nazis pouring scarce resources into on paper war-winning weapons using technology that wasn’t ready.
The father, as we know it, of the turbo jet was British inventor Frank Whittle. Long story short, the British defense ministry rejected Frank Whittle’s design in part due to reviewing engineers at Armstrong-Whitworth pointing out, correctly as it turns out, that a turbo jet engine would be fundamentally inefficient. Instead Whittle patented the design, and not being top secret, the concept greatly influenced the Nazi design team led by Hans Ohain.
Engineers at Armstrong-Whitworth, drawing upon their criticism of the Whittle concept, began development of the first axial-flow turbojets and the first turboprops. And it is this technology family that led directly to today’s turbofan jet engine. The Whittle design proceeded in private development, eventually being taken over by Rolls-Royce. By 1944, the Armstrong-Whitworth design developed higher thrust with superior throttle control, and the Powerjet/ Rolls- Royce centrifugal flow turbojet has proven itself to be far more reliable than the competing Nazi jet projects, the Jumbo 004 and the BMW 003.
Steel is the wrong material from which to build jet engines. Given time, steel will always fail. It fails because the iron in steel sublimates out of the alloy, essentially turning the metal to Swiss cheese on a microscopic level. The general term for such long term metal fatigue is “creep.” In the 1940’s, no one knew that steel would inevitably fail given the temperatures and pressures in jet engines. The correct material that makes jet engines actually practical, and not simply impossible, is nickel alloy, which was a British invention, designed by the British jet design teams. There is no indication that the Nazi design teams ever understood that steel was never going to work, no matter how much they modified their design. The fact that nickel alloys were the solution was not at al intuitively obvious and the Nazis weren’t doing much in the way of R&D to discover the problem.
The Nazis two major production jet engines never managed to last more than 25 hours. You can’t win a war when you have to replace, not merely one but two engines, the most critical and expensive component of an aircraft, every few hours. The icing on the cake is that the Nazis didn’t have access to sufficient quantities of nickel, courtesy of theRoyal Navy blockade, even if they somehow discovered that steel was never going to work.
Wrong
"Whittle propaganda" Rubbish! Ohain and Whittle worked independently. Both are the fathers of the jet Engine.
+Echo Star Certainly Whittle was unaware of Von Ohain's work. However, Von Ohain was well aware of Whittle's work, people who worked with him at the time admitted so.
It may be so, but they followed different lines in their work. Whittle opted fo the centrifugal compressor and Ohain for the axial.
+Echo Star Its difficult for the Brits to admit defeat ... Amundsen beat Scott easily to the South pole and even today the majority of Brits think it was pure luck !!
+Echo Star Nope.
von Ohain's engine was a back to back centrifugal unit with a centrifugal compressor and a centrifugal turbine. This design was never used again and von Ohain's engine never went into production.
Whittle had a centrifugal compressor with an axial turbine- a design still in use worldwide today in a number of engines including the ubiquitous PT-6.
+Echo Star web.mit.edu/16.unified/www/SPRING/propulsion/notes/node27.html
FACT! The Jet Engine pioneers all more or less started out together without any real knowledge of what the other designers were up to! Whittle designed CENTRIFUGAL flow engines which, at their best would turn out to be a dead end in engine design.
Ohain settled for a compact 'reverse' flow layout which flew successfully and went on to become the basis for many successful designs, still being manufactured today, including the P&W PT-6 and units used in the Chinook Helicopters etc etc
Brandner of BMW went for the Axial flow option which became the norm in jet engine design...and eventually designed the mighty Kuznetsov NK-12 Turboprop! Still, after all the intervening years, in service as the power plant for the incredible Tupolev Bear!...which is reputed to be going to remain in service til 2040!
Incidentally, even Westinghouse, with vast experience in Steam Turbine design, got into axial flow jet engines in 1941 and had their engine running in 1943...but, were to eventually lose their way as Jet Engine producers.
Whittle did well against the odds, to produce sound jet engines, but they were always going to be superseded by the much superior Axial flow designs which are now very much the norm in aero engine design.
Time we tempered the all the talk about Whittle being the father and first great pioneer in Jet Engine Design! He was ONE of the pioneers!...and...and...he was NOT the best of them!
+Mick Dunn FACT - You have made so many errors here I think it is some kind of new record! Perhaps you should have done some homework before posting.
I will deal with them one by one.
1 von Ohain did not design a reverse flow engine. His engine had a centrifugal compressor and a radial inflow (centrifugal turbine - a design never used in any production engine. This was a patent held by Whittle. von Ohain even commented on its unusual design when he read Whittle's patent prior to filing his own: From his biography:
"When I saw Whittle’s patent I was almost convinced that it had something to do with boundary layer suction combinations. It had a two-flow, dual entrance flow radial flow compressor that looked monstrous from an engine point of view. Its flow reversal looked to us to be an undesirable thing, but it turned out that it wasn't so bad after all though it gave some minor instability problems."
2 Whittle's reverse flow design is the basis for almost all turboprop engines in production today.
3 Britain had axial engines running in 1941 - the same time that Franz had his early Jumo running. They flew the Metrovick F2 in 1943. The F2 was developed into the Sapphire which the US built as the J-65 and in modified form as the J-47.
4 Westinghouse was given a Whittle engine and all the plans but made such a mess of their attempt to build the engine that Whittle came over to help them but in the end the US Government gave the project to GE who made the I-16 which then went on to become the first US built jet engine. The US licenced the Ghost for the P-80/T-33 and the Nene for a number of other aircraft.
5 Derivatives of Whittle's designs are still in production today. (PT-6, PWC 100/150) So much for being superseded!
6 Von Ohain's engine never went into production and was shelved by 1943. No-one ever built an engine using his configuration.
7 Whittle also considered axial engines but knew the metallurgy was not advanced enough at the time.He was right. His engines produced much more thrust than the German axials and had orders of magnitude better reliability.
8 Whittle's centrifugal engines were built under licence in the US after the war as the J-33, J-42 and J-48.
The RR Trent was the world's first turboprop to fly.
British axials led the post war world in technology and power.
The Sapphire was built in the US as the J-65.
The GE J-47 was based on the Sapphire.
The Olympus was the world's first 2 shaft turbojet and the first to exceed 10,000lb thrust.
The Avon is the longest produced gas turbine in history being still in production as a land based generator.
The RR Conway was the world's first turbofan.
The RB-211 was the worlds first 3 shaft turbofan.
Time for some homework perchance?
It is an historical fact that Whittle is the father of the jet engine and the vast majority of turboprops flying today are testament to his genius.
Except that Frank Whittle patented his engine before von Ohain even completed his studies and von Ohain discusses in detail, (in his biography) reading Whittle's patents before he even filed his own and years before he built an engine.
Even operating on a shoestring budget, Whittle ran his engines 6 months before von Ohain and only Whittle's engines ever went into production and his designs are the basis of most turboprops in service today.
Not a bad achievement and one worthy of the title - inventor of the jet engine.
Ohain READ Whittles Patents you numbskull...!!!!!
None of them patented firstly the jet engine
read wikipedia.
You seem to be missing the POINT. Whittle PUBLISHED - YEARS before Ohain.Ohain ADMITTED reading Whittle Patent Application. End of.
Whittle developed and patented your version of jet engine, only used by english, russian - and american british licensed versions, since they were a prodigy only in radial engine projects - but Von Ohain designed and built axial engines at first, which are the design that ruled the world since then, french also built axials sooner then english, ruusian and americans, who received german design and prototypes as a gift, at WWII ending.
+carlos henrique Teutschbeim Actually von Ohains first engines were centrifugal like Whittle's it was actually Dr. Herbert Wagner who came up with the axial flow engine which he started development on in 1935.
+carlos henrique Teutschbeim Von Ohain's engine used both radial compressor and turbine. It was a dead end design that was NEVER manufactured. He essentially took Whittle's 1930 patent masterpiece, that detailed the entire workings of every successful jet engine ever built, and made a giant turd out of it. The 'first' German jet plane that flew with Ohains jet was nothing more than a hair-dryer powered glider.
+carlos henrique Teutschbeim Nope. von Ohain's engine was a centrifugal unit, not an axial one...
+carlos henrique Teutschbeim Nonsense! Engines derived from Whittle's designs powered British, French, US, Russian and Chinese aircraft in their thousands and Whittle's reverse flow design is the basis for almost all turboprops flying today. Von Ohain's engines were centrifugal and never went into production nor did any engine based on his design.
Carlos , I think you are wrong. The first British axial-flow engine was the Metropolitan Vickers F2 which ran in 1941. This is way before the French (who were occupied at the time of course). I would also point out that as far as I am aware, the earliest designs for one of these axial-flow engines was in a paper of 1926 by Alan Griffith. This was entitled " An Aerodynamic Theory of Turbine Design". Many scientists around the world feel that he has a claim on the invention of the jet engine. He is more famous of course for his work with metallurgy which resulted in British engines being far superior to German units in WW2.
Bollocks!! If whittle had been given the proper funding from the get go, well, I think we all know what would’ve happened much sooner...
If I could do it, I would ban the word if
Whittle was only the first in the UK... Hans von Ohain invented the turbojet years earlier.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Here is Hans von Ohain's own description of Whittle's patent-
"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced,
was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for
in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed
by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the
compressor, and an exhaust nozzle."
Note the word 'first'.
There was only ONE father of the jet-engine, - and it was, factually, unequivocally, Whittle. Ohain's design was probably more advanced, but then he'd already evaluated Whittles detailed design and patent. Whittle, of course, was a quiet, modest man, but the people in aviation that matter all know that it was 100% Whittles brainchild. The fact that Ohain's flew first was purely down to the fact that Whittle was working on a tiny budget, whereas Ohain was being bankrolled by the Nazis, bigtime.
There was NOTHING more advanced about O Hains very poor copy of Whittles jet engine. The fact that it only flew once and was not developed further because it was CRAP tells the whole story
Yeah, the British were so far ahead of everyone else that they didn't have a mass produced, airworthy, jet-powered aircraft until after the war. Oh wait, about that air worthy thing. Both the Meteor and the Comet had a nasty habit of blowing up in the sky killing everyone onboard These air disasters so crippled Britain's jet aircraft program that they have never recovered even to this day.
@@haroldfiedler6549 I'd hardly call the _Meteor_ *not* mass-produced or airworthy.
@@haroldfiedler6549 ;- You are quite obviously a complete moron.
somebody please tell me these guys conversation in a simple way i cant understand
One word for Hans Von Ohain - plagiarist.
Spotty.
Please do all over your keyboard you might not be able to keep on telling the lies you like.
He found out that whittle had a working turbo jet and they got the info from patent office he said it himself all documented believe what you like turbo jet inventor that worked efficient was frank whittles fact
They didn’t knew about each other other. Ohains Concept is widely used today while Whittles is dead. And Ohain built the first which ran under his own power.
@@bekluwe I recommend reading Ohain's own words in his foreword to 'Elements of Propulsion, Gas Turbines and Rockets' in which he states-
"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced,
was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for
in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed
by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the
compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today for
small- and medium-power output engines,"
Please note the reference to axial flow compressors.
and
"From the beginning of his jet propulsion activities, Frank Whittle had been
seeking means for improving the propulsive efficiency of turbojet engines. ¶ He
conceived novel ideas for which he filed a patent application in 1936, which
can be called a bypass engine or turbofan. To avoid a complete new design,
Whittle sought an interim solution that could be merely "tacked on" to a jet
engine. This configuration was later known as the aft fan. Whittle's work on
fan jets or bypass engines and aft fans was way ahead of his time. It was of
greatest importance for the future or turbopropulsion."
Please note that's about Turbofans.
You will also be able to read Ohain's own description of his own patent-
"In early 1935, I worked out a patent for the various features of a gas turbine
consisting of radial outflow compressor rotor, combustor, radial inflow turbine,
and a central exhaust thrust nozzle."
Please note the absence of any axial flow elements.
You will also be able to read in Ohain's own word how all of his designs were cancelled and never went into production. You may choose not to believe Ohain's own words but they are there for you to read if you wish.
Well Ohain and whittle were the fathers of the centrifugel Jet engine. These types are not used anymore. The real Inventor of the axial flow Jet engine used on all todays Jet aircraft was Anselm Franz and his Team at Junkers Motors.
Graham Pinkerton just 2 things: 1. Centrifugal compressors are still in use in helicopters. 2. Please explain the Metropolitan Vickers F.1 axial flow jet engine programme that first ran in 1941?
Whittles design patents covered both centrifugal and axial jet engines, the Jumo was based on Whittle's patent just like Ohain's design.
The world's first axial compressor turbojet engine was designed and built by Dr.Anselm Franz it ran in October 1940, the Jumo 004 was the first production axial turbojet.
@@barrierodliffe4155 Here is what Ohain had to say in his own words-
"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced,
was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for
in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed
by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the
compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..."
It's odd that wehraboos like Sandyboy there can't see the bit about axial compressors in there.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Make up your mind Sandyboy, only a handful of posts you were giving that credit to Maxime Guillaume.
Ohain was to the jet engine what Stephenson was to the steam locomotive. Ohain created the one of the first, if not the first, practical axial flow jet engine (I don't know enough of the history of the jet engine to say it definitely, I do know that it was a Norweigen that created the first working gas turbine engine that produced more power than it consumed AEgilius Elling). Yes, I know that the British looked at axial flow gas turbines in the 1930s and decided that there were issues with materials that prevented a successful axial flow gas turbine being built at that time (Ohain's designs suffered from the same problems). But all technological problems are overcome given enough time and money. Whittle's design lead to bulky engines with less thrust than Ohain's engine, but with much greater reliability - as a pilot I'd like the power, but I'd rather get home in one piece.
Ohain, like Stephenson, was the inventor of the technology he's famed for but rather the developer of the technology. Stephenson gave the world the first practical and reliable (for the period) steam locomotive after years of careful development
Ohain copied whittle`s work and his engine was not axial flow, it was centrifugal flow and did not work. Whittle designs led to the Rolls Royce Nene with over twice the thrust of any German design and far more reliability,
Britain also had working axial flow designs during the war that were better than the German attempts.
Ohain not only did not develop the technology he did not make any successful jet engines.
Ohain's engine wasn't axial flow. In his foreword to 'Elements of Propulsion, Gas Turbines and Rockets' Ohain himself describes his patent thus-
"In early 1935, I worked out a patent for the various features of a gas turbine
consisting of radial outflow compressor rotor, combustor, radial inflow turbine,
and a central exhaust thrust nozzle."
Note the absence of any axial flow element.
Ohain describes Whittle's patent thus-
"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced,
was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for
in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed
by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the
compressor, and an exhaust nozzle."
Note the axial compressors.
Spotty.
Where do you get your lies from.
Frank Whittle patented both centrifugal and axial flow engines, Ohain copied Whittles patents and he made a centrifugal engine but it went nowhere. Germany adopted axial flow rather than Ohain`s failure.
Whittle realized that centrifugal was easier and it worked. While Metropolitan Vickers went ahead with axial flow and they were well ahead of Germany, Rolls Royce took on Whittles design and improved it, USA got Whittles designs, post war France tried to make the BMW work and wasted years while Arnstrong Siddeley went ahead with the Metropolitan design and RR made the Derwent and Nene, RR then made the excellent Avon, nothing from German failures. Russia tried to get the Jumo to work but gave up when they got the RR Nene, Czechoslovakia tried to make the Me 262 with the Jumo and after some years of trying they soon dropped it. all modern jet engines owe their existence to the British designs and not the German failures.
Spotty Show us the Germans first patent I can give you Whittles patent Number Come on you German lover
Maxime Guillaume patented the the jet engine 9 years before Frank Whittle... Whittle's patent was allowed to expire as it was found to be invalid.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 Since when was Guillaume's patent a German patent? As for your daft claim that Whittle's patent was found to be invalid, here's how Pabst von Ohain in his own words found it to be-
"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced,
was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for
in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed
by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the
compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today"
Now, I'll ask you once again to provide any evidence to support your stupid claim that Whittle's patent was invalid. And once again you won't be able to.
@@sandervanderkammen9230 You are officially an idiot. Please do try to present any evidence you think you can that Whittle's patent was ' found to be invalid'.
While you are struggling I'll just leave you with Hans Joachim Pabst von Ohain's own words on the matter-
"The first patent of a turbojet engine, which was later developed and produced,
was that of Frank Whittle, now Sir Frank (see Fig. 5). His patent was applied for
in January 1930. This patent shows a multistage, axial-flow compressor followed
by a radial compressor stage, a combustor, an axial-flow turbine driving the
compressor, and an exhaust nozzle. Such configurations are still used today..."
Whittle's patent for a viable jet engine was years ahead, surely making him the father of the jet engine.
That is a popular but completely false British myth.
Maxime Guillaume patented the turbojet aircraft engine in 1921 when a 14 year old Frankie was still wearing short pants.
Frank Whittle was a unlikely hero, a prolific boaster and shameless self-promoter he was propelled to fame by sheer propaganda.
Whittle was not the first to achieve anything related to the development of the jet engine and played a very minor role in British jet development.
The real hero's were Adrian Lombard and Stanley Hooker.
the germans just beat us to it - what else can we say?
The British beat the German in the race to get one working. But after the Germans got one working five months after the British, they beat the British in the race to get it into the air. But none of theirs were marketed. Much of Frank Whittle's configuration is used in turbo jets to this day.
Hitler was his own worst enemy, Insisting on using the engine for an ill conceived bomber project. He never listened to the generals or the engineers, who knew better. He would have lost the war regardless of the so called "super weapons" being developed, but the Nazi's may have hung on longer.
@@unhooked25 That is incorrect, Hans von Ohain and Max Hahnn built the world's first turbojet in 1934, at least a year before Whittle attempted to build a jet engine.
@@unhooked25 The important issue is the first successful flight test demonstration in Germany.
Hans von Ohain was the first to power an aircraft in pure jet flight, this was August 27th 1939 with the Heinkel He-178, Whittle's engine was not successful for another 2 years.
"what else can we say?..." Something a bit more honest and informative?
I heard dr von ohian talk about jet engine development in 1980 and 1981 at the university of florida. Von ohain made the jet work he was the first. Dr. Von ohain was a great American patriot, strong supporter of us military, and a very fine man. Talking with him after his presentation was a great honor. He taught propulsion at the university of florida a year i took peopulsion. Cannot say enough good about this great man.
He was German, not American.
wrong on practically every point
I. Stand by my stateman he was a american citizen
He wasn't first. Nor claimed he was.
@@OldEastGermany looks like he changed sides and nationality after the war, like many other incl v.Braun
let's face it - the germans won the technology war
antigen4: Okay you say the Germans won the technology war? Well yes I believe that may very well be true, in fact I'm quite sure that it is true. But the British RAF officer Frank Whittle was the first to build and test a turbo jet engine. But I do believe the Europeans especially the Germans are at the forefront of all science and technology.
well i guess the allies technically 'won' by appropriating the german technology at the end of the war ... there's an argument there too
@@antigen4
yet Germany was behind Britain on radar, jet engines and even weapons, German machine guns were beautifully made but complex and prone to jamming, that is why Germany made thousands of copies of the Sten gun, quick and cheap to make, easy to strip and clean.
actually not ... (behind britain on radar) - they were surprisingly advanced ... when britain ended up capturing one of the german night fighter interceptors they found equipment on board that actually TRACKED the british night fighter SIGNALS in order to find them ... but it was a back and forth cat and mouse game - the germans though had the mother of all radar installations - the HIMMELBELT (or -bett?) - the Kammhuber line which was a distributed network using small wurzburg dishes to build up a centralized map which is the very model on which today's CELLULAR NETWORKS were built ... most of what we hear about the germans is propaganda it seems ... didn't help much in the end though i guess ..though it helps US steal all their cool tech .... check THIS out if you're interested in the topic - fascinating! ua-cam.com/video/ZTC_RxWN_xo/v-deo.html
@@antigen4
Yet Britain had the best radar system in the world, Germany never worked out how the British home chain radar worked, Britain came up with the centimetric radar that was small enough to be fitted in night fighters, that was given to USA like many British developments.
It seems popular to claim Germany was advanced in all technology but Britain was ahead in many areas
The Father of the jet engine HENRI COANDA 1910 !ROMANIA>
cristiandan06 Coandă was a brillant engineer... but he never built a jet engine... it simply never happened
Yep...you're right ! Watch my comment above !
Coanda had an idea which did not work. It was an internal combustion engine powering a fan, not an original idea at all, and most certainly not a jet engine
@@psk1w1 It was a ducted fan and whilst I agree that claims for Coanda as inventor of the jet engine are nonsense, the idea is sort of present in the turbofan.
I'm sorry (no, not really) but I have to puncture your distorted vision of the history of the jet engine with facts and timelines. No, yours is the propaganda.
In later life, Dr Hans von Ohain acknowledged on several occasions, to several distinguished British gas turbine engineers that, had Whittle received the same support that he had received, the RAF would have had jet fighters in service some three years before the Luftwaffe. Having been evasive when interrogated after the war, von Ohain also acknowledged to Whittle himself that he had read Whittle's original patent when it was circulated in Germany, soon after its publication as a provisional patent by The UK Patent Office in 1931.
Can I suggest you get a copy of 'German Jet Engine and Gas Turbine Development 1930-45 - if you can afford the exorbitant cost, now that it's out of print? Such a conversation is recorded in the foreword by the late Dr Gordon Lewis (formerly Technical Director at Rolls-Royce, Bristol), for whom I worked briefly before his retirement.
The book also records how notoriously unreliable the German engines were, and I will give you just one example. Immediately after the war, the Americans and the British were able to use BMW's high altitude test plant in Munich, and arrangements were made to test a DH Goblin I in August 1945, with the assistance of German engineers. After 5hrs of testing, the German engineers expected the test cell to be opened up to inspect the engine. They were greatly surprised to be told that this would not be necessary, and the engine was run for a total of 42hrs before being inspected. A Goblin II was subsequently tested and ran trouble-free for 71hrs.
Sorry but you are relying on British propaganda myths and revisionist history.
Maxime Guillaume patented the turbojet aircraft engine in 1921 when a 14 year old Frankie was still wearing short pants.
Whittle would not begin actual work on jet engines until 1936 when he moved to Rugby... Hans von Ohain and Max Hahnn had already demonstrated a working protype a year earlier.
The old British myth that von Ohain copied Whittles patent is easily debunked.
The 1930 patent was fundamentally flawed and would have never ran successfully, this was pointed out by A.A Griffiths who also proved that Whittle plagerized his work... this would have been a minor faux pas if Griffiths hadn't been the Cheif of Engine development at the Royal Aircraft Establishment.
Whittle not only sabotaged his career in aviation but he also would discover that his patent was also invalid and he allowed it to quietly expire.
Whittle would never build the 1930, or any engine with a axial compressor.
The 1930 features a axial + centrifugal compressor and axial turbine and no discernible combustor.
Ohain's engine was completely different with a centrifugal compressor, anular combustor and a centrifugal turbine.
The two engines couldn't be more different.
Please stop spreading your lies and false British propaganda.
The facts on this are very different than popular myth.
The Jumo 004b Orkan engines met or exceeded the RLMs 100 hour PFTR standards for acceptance into Luftwaffe service.
The exact same 100 hour PFTR required by the RAF, USAAF and the Soviet Air Force during WW2.
The U.S. Army tested the Me-262's engines as part of Operation Lusty and confirmed TBOs in the 50 to 60 hour range EXCELLENT by WW2 standards.
@@sandervanderkammen9230
dockorbimmer, a quiz
Name the inventor of the turbojet engine?
20 points for the correct answer.
@grahamj9101
Yes, the Germans were nowhere in turbojet development. Leaders? Only those on cloud La La land would say that.
@@johnburns4017 *WINNER!* Hans von Ohain and Max Hahnn invented the turbojet engine in August 1939.
Whittles engine design is not used much today. Mr O'hains version proved superior.
, how old are you ????
All modern engines are based on Whittle's design.
Frank Whittle's design was obsolete on arrival, no modern jet engine uses his design.
@@sandervanderkammen9230
You are a complete idiot.
@@johnburns4017 Just the facts here lad, whittle did not invent the turbojet engine and modern jet aircraft all use axial compressor engines invented by Dr. Anselm Franz.
When I read the comments it makes me sad that some cant accept the fact that their nation was late to invent jet engine. Von Ohain is the inventor of the Jet engine. That is a true. Why are trying to make it seem as if it had been invented by some other man. ?? Just accept it .
Astsubay Fethi _____ How can you "invent" something when it is well known that he studied Whittle's patents before he built his first engine. The patent holder is the 'inventor'. It's not even a debate.
Astbury Fehti
Hard to accept a lie, Ohain had access to Whittle's 1930 patents and he copied a lot from them and his patent was several years later, Ohain never made a successful jet engine.
@@barrierodliffe4155 Maxime Guillaume patented the turbojet engine 9 years before Frank Whittle.
The Heinkel He-178 flew on August 27th 1939, 2 uears before Whittle's engine would fly.
@@sandervanderkammen9230
Guillaume never had a turbojet engine which could run under it's own power, Whittle was the first to do that. The He 178 did fly but it was a dead end, they never retracted the undercarriage on the few short flights and Ohain's copy of the Whittle centrifugal engine was dropped.
@@barrierodliffe4155 The first jet engine was successfully flight tested on August 27th 1939, 2 years before Frank Whittle.
The Gloster Whittle E.28 would only be the 4th jet to complete a successful flight test.
Whittle's design was an evolutionary dead end. Today we use the axial compressor turbojet invented by Dr Anselm Franz in 1940.