@@kennethobrien6537 Were they built in Spain, or somewhere else, AFTER the war? You know more about this than I do. I'd like to know what you know. All I know about post-war production was in Czechoslavakia with the S-99, and those used by Israel with heavy bomber engines and were horrible aircraft in that version. Thanks for the reply.
@@Jonno2summit wait, you are doing quite a confusion here because the Czechoslovakian Avia S-199 was based on the Messerschmitt Me 109G built after 2nd WW 2 utilizing the Junkers Jumo 211F, the same engine installed on the Ju 87 Stuka,in place of the original and unavailable DB 605 engine and fitted with the big paddle blades of the He 111 bomber. The resulting combination of parts was an aircraft with extremely poor handling qualities and dangerous flight characteristics.
@@kennethobrien6537 actually the Hispano Aviación HA-1109 and HA-1112 are licence-built versions of the Messerschmitt Bf 109G-2. Without writing a book the final variant was the HA-1112 Bouchòn (Pouter) fitted with the 1600 hp Rolls-Royce Merlin 500-45 engine and and Rotol propeller, both purchased as surplus from the UK. Was built in 239 units. First flew 29 March 1954 and finally retired tne 27 December 1965. Those Bouchòn were practically new when they participated at the famous Battle of Britain, very curiously a film I never seen! Hope I didn't bore you guys....
very good analysis. However,it must be stated that the DB engines were not designed/cleared for high (as high as Spitfire coolant--125+°) coolant temps, and therefore didn't need the radiators built withstand the higher pressures. The higher operating temps would also possibly effect boost pressures, and possibly shorten component life of economy metal parts. So, I have to seriously question whether they actually pulled an unalterated standard production DB605 off the assembly line for the MkV. My impression is that Germans were trying to advance quickly (catch up) with aviation engine technology, and we're aware of their limitations in acquiring sufficient strategic alloying materials. Because of this and a few other reasons (eg, didn't think air combat performance was significant above 28--30K ft altitude), they decided to go with cubic inches moreso than smaller displacement, highly boosted (stressed) engines. As war progressed, and their supply of strategic materials dwindled, even the lead babbitt bearings couldn't keep pace with increasing power requirements.
@@BARelement I think quality control was fast declining. Hard to obtain consistent quality fuel stocks. Pushing limits to maximum to hold the line. Engine replacement components not coming through disintegrating supply chain. Novice pilots needing every last advantage, and probably not able to completely monitor engine parameters under combat conditions. One can readily visualize the unraveling situation, of which the prevailing mood might be "hang the expense--we're not sweating engine life under these circumstances!" When only you and your wingman take off to attack a thousand plane bomber raid, and are jumped by 600 fighters, it is the end, and whether you used 1.98 ata of boost, or 1.8, or 2.5 is no longer of serious relevance. (Scenario referenced by Heinz Knocke in "I Flew for the Fuehrer").
Yugoslavia had Hawker Hurricanes and Messerschmitt bf-109s before the war and have fitted a DB601 into a Hurricane .. It was downed over Kosovo during the invasion of Yugoslavia
I always thought the reason Galland asked for a unit of Spitfires was to use them to help his pilots practice dogfighting against them, though considering the Spitfires armament at the time of the Battle of Britain, Vs that of the BF109, I could see why he thought they were more use in a defensive role.
Very interesting. I saw elsewhere that the prototype 109 had a merlin fitted, so this is a nice juxtaposition. Would be interesting to see someone do a comparison between the two.
@@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 A Bf-109B/V10a prototype #1010 was dug up in Germany and reasonably complete. The restoration is searching for a usable Jumo 210 engine to continue the rebuild to static condition.
C3 was 130 octane. Reaction with fuel tank liners did however degrade the octane levels. The Germans also ran very lean mixtures which also impacts actual achieved antiknock performance. This was partly corrected by injection of methanol which has an inherent octane of 114 and also significantly cooled the cylinders. The cooling effect raises the effective octane by 19 points.
@@craigd1275 Yep. heard same thing a from Greg's areoplanes and automobile channel. He mentioned some big diffrence between estimated and factual octane noumber caused by faulty processing or something. but i'm not sure if it wasn't C4 petrol as he compared super late war performance of mustangs and Fw-190 d-13. And here we have bit earlier dispute.
@@craigd1275 That was the prewar B4 specification. Britain ran on the same fuel. Russia used 65 Octane (which made Russian fuel unusable by anyone else). Germany switched to 93/115 Octane C3 at about the same time the British rolled out 100/130 and the US 100/120 with the Germans progressively raising the octane to 97/130 by the end of WW2 but there was never enough to go round. High octane fuel shortages were why jet engines got pushed hard. Jet engines will run on absolute shit fuel.
@@allangibson8494 I belive we are talking diffrent octane noumbers here. 87 octane is equivalent to 91-ish in europe. I would also put fistful of salt into any noumbers taken from german sources as yes-manning intensified with ammount of shit german forces gotten pushed in their butt. Dont forget Final drive fiasco from their transmission- when they did not accunted increasing shittiness of german steel in their desighn- engineers might not have known that they are pushing theoretical dispute while realities where diffrent. Although pushing theoretical was bit of a standard practice in german engineering as a whole with best example being tests of marching speeds of their navy before WWI- When during acceptance trail germs would put cleanest and purest of coal in their ships only to "make it work" for a while and let machinery rot from cheap stuff during war. When I really think about it sounds like dieselgate was just another day in savage land of germany where lies are acceptable form of survival, as they must adhere to self-imposed dogma of "german engineering being best in the world".
I've left a note and my contact information on your website. I think I see where I've misread something but would like to confirm it with you before I send suggestions to the video team.
@@henryh8357 Its probaby been deleted as the CAPCHA isnt working at the moment on my website so I`m just deleting all the messages. You can find me on Twitter or Linkedin
The ugliest ME109 built was fitted with the merlin engine. It is the Buchon from Hispano Aviación. These were used in the movie battle of Britian. The ugliest spitfire ever made was this unit with the DB601 engine.
The short lived long range Spitfire Mk IIs with a fixed external fuel tank on the port wing must have been the ugliest. The DB Spitfire is practical and a very good fit so I think it looks good. Did it use a Me410 cowling?
![The Fighter That Tried To Replace The Spitfire | Martin-Baker MB.5 [Aircraft Overview #82]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1CJWEc_sQkQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Messerschmitt and Daimler Benz essentially got into a "No you" argument and Daimler got the last "NO, YOU!" in.
So, which is it? Mark Felton or Plane Encyclopedia, which ever, the Messerspit is one good looking aeroplane
Well, this is interesting, and why not? The 109 was fitted with the Merlin in the Spanish Air Force (those seen in the movie Battle of Britain).
Yes but those were Casa built models from well after the war
@@kennethobrien6537 Were they built in Spain, or somewhere else, AFTER the war? You know more about this than I do. I'd like to know what you know. All I know about post-war production was in Czechoslavakia with the S-99, and those used by Israel with heavy bomber engines and were horrible aircraft in that version. Thanks for the reply.
@@Jonno2summit wait, you are doing quite a confusion here because the Czechoslovakian Avia S-199 was based on the Messerschmitt Me 109G built after 2nd WW 2 utilizing the Junkers Jumo 211F, the same engine installed on the Ju 87 Stuka,in place of the original and unavailable DB 605 engine and fitted with the big paddle blades of the He 111 bomber. The resulting combination of parts was an aircraft with extremely poor handling qualities and dangerous flight characteristics.
@@kennethobrien6537 actually the Hispano Aviación HA-1109 and HA-1112 are licence-built versions of the Messerschmitt Bf 109G-2. Without writing a book the final variant was the HA-1112 Bouchòn (Pouter) fitted with the 1600 hp Rolls-Royce Merlin 500-45 engine and and Rotol propeller, both purchased as surplus from the UK. Was built in 239 units. First flew 29 March 1954 and finally retired tne 27 December 1965. Those Bouchòn were practically new when they participated at the famous Battle of Britain, very curiously a film I never seen! Hope I didn't bore you guys....
@@paoloviti6156 Yes, I'm aware of that history.
Outstanding presentation, acturate with no fluff or bias. Thank you!
Looks better than the Bf 109 with the Merlin
Very very interesting, especially the "contest" between two senior personalities!
I would've gone with SchmittFire.
another great one to watch!
very good analysis.
However,it must be stated that the DB engines were not designed/cleared for high (as high as Spitfire coolant--125+°) coolant temps, and therefore didn't need the radiators built withstand the higher pressures. The higher operating temps would also possibly effect boost pressures, and possibly shorten component life of economy metal parts. So, I have to seriously question whether they actually pulled an unalterated standard production DB605 off the assembly line for the MkV.
My impression is that Germans were trying to advance quickly (catch up) with aviation engine technology, and we're aware of their limitations in acquiring sufficient strategic alloying materials. Because of this and a few other reasons (eg, didn't think air combat performance was significant above 28--30K ft altitude), they decided to go with cubic inches moreso than smaller displacement, highly boosted (stressed) engines. As war progressed, and their supply of strategic materials dwindled, even the lead babbitt bearings couldn't keep pace with increasing power requirements.
Makes you really question if the K-4 was hitting “2,000hp” when the engine was caught melting and merking itself
@@BARelement I think quality control was fast declining. Hard to obtain consistent quality fuel stocks. Pushing limits to maximum to hold the line. Engine replacement components not coming through disintegrating supply chain. Novice pilots needing every last advantage, and probably not able to completely monitor engine parameters under combat conditions.
One can readily visualize the unraveling situation, of which the prevailing mood might be "hang the expense--we're not sweating engine life under these circumstances!"
When only you and your wingman take off to attack a thousand plane bomber raid, and are jumped by 600 fighters, it is the end, and whether you used 1.98 ata of boost, or 1.8, or 2.5 is no longer of serious relevance. (Scenario referenced by Heinz Knocke in "I Flew for the Fuehrer").
Thanks for an excellent video, technically sound and no inappropriate fill-in footage😘
Glad you enjoyed it
Yugoslavia had Hawker Hurricanes and Messerschmitt bf-109s before the war and have fitted a DB601 into a Hurricane .. It was downed over Kosovo during the invasion of Yugoslavia
I always thought the reason Galland asked for a unit of Spitfires was to use them to help his pilots practice dogfighting against them, though considering the Spitfires armament at the time of the Battle of Britain, Vs that of the BF109, I could see why he thought they were more use in a defensive role.
So the spitfire and 109 had a baby
That is such a great video and serves to exemplify the sort of corporate infighting normal in Nazi Germany
Have you worked in a US corporation or been in the US military? Infighting is not unique to Germans.
.
Macchis, Fiats, Reggianes, Kawasakis used Daimler Benz engines (licensed, not necessarily originals), and looked and worked very well.
now I wanna see a db605 on a mustang.
Very interesting. I saw elsewhere that the prototype 109 had a merlin fitted, so this is a nice juxtaposition. Would be interesting to see someone do a comparison between the two.
The 109 prototyp flew with a Kestrel engine.
A 22 litre Kestrel, closer in size to the planned 20 litre Junkers Jumo 210 used in the production 109B to 109Ds.
Rolls Royce Kestral not Merlin
Thanks for the correction. Not sure if it was me or the source that misinterpreted, but now I know.
@@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 A Bf-109B/V10a prototype #1010 was dug up in Germany and reasonably complete. The restoration is searching for a usable Jumo 210 engine to continue the rebuild to static condition.
wasn't german synthetic petrol roughly equivalent to lowest acceptable grade of american petrol?
C3 was 130 octane. Reaction with fuel tank liners did however degrade the octane levels. The Germans also ran very lean mixtures which also impacts actual achieved antiknock performance.
This was partly corrected by injection of methanol which has an inherent octane of 114 and also significantly cooled the cylinders. The cooling effect raises the effective octane by 19 points.
Supposedly their fuel was 87 octane. That is low octane car gasoline today.
.
@@craigd1275 Yep. heard same thing a from Greg's areoplanes and automobile channel. He mentioned some big diffrence between estimated and factual octane noumber caused by faulty processing or something. but i'm not sure if it wasn't C4 petrol as he compared super late war performance of mustangs and Fw-190 d-13. And here we have bit earlier dispute.
@@craigd1275 That was the prewar B4 specification.
Britain ran on the same fuel. Russia used 65 Octane (which made Russian fuel unusable by anyone else).
Germany switched to 93/115 Octane C3 at about the same time the British rolled out 100/130 and the US 100/120 with the Germans progressively raising the octane to 97/130 by the end of WW2 but there was never enough to go round.
High octane fuel shortages were why jet engines got pushed hard. Jet engines will run on absolute shit fuel.
@@allangibson8494 I belive we are talking diffrent octane noumbers here. 87 octane is equivalent to 91-ish in europe. I would also put fistful of salt into any noumbers taken from german sources as yes-manning intensified with ammount of shit german forces gotten pushed in their butt. Dont forget Final drive fiasco from their transmission- when they did not accunted increasing shittiness of german steel in their desighn- engineers might not have known that they are pushing theoretical dispute while realities where diffrent. Although pushing theoretical was bit of a standard practice in german engineering as a whole with best example being tests of marching speeds of their navy before WWI- When during acceptance trail germs would put cleanest and purest of coal in their ships only to "make it work" for a while and let machinery rot from cheap stuff during war.
When I really think about it sounds like dieselgate was just another day in savage land of germany where lies are acceptable form of survival, as they must adhere to self-imposed dogma of "german engineering being best in the world".
These look better, to me, than the original 109.
There is a good video from Ed Nash about a radial engined 109.
RIP Scheidhauer. A hero.
I`m afraid you`ve got the point about Nallinger being "proved right", 08:18 absolutely wrong. Perhaps you misunderstood my book!
I've left a note and my contact information on your website. I think I see where I've misread something but would like to confirm it with you before I send suggestions to the video team.
@@henryh8357 Its probaby been deleted as the CAPCHA isnt working at the moment on my website so I`m just deleting all the messages.
You can find me on Twitter or Linkedin
The ugliest ME109 built was fitted with the merlin engine. It is the Buchon from Hispano Aviación. These were used in the movie battle of Britian. The ugliest spitfire ever made was this unit with the DB601 engine.
The short lived long range Spitfire Mk IIs with a fixed external fuel tank on the port wing must have been the ugliest. The DB Spitfire is practical and a very good fit so I think it looks good. Did it use a Me410 cowling?
Cool story
Yo prefiero el nombre Schmittfire ....suena mejor que Messerspit
RAF were using high octane 100octane fuel from usa in battle of britian nazis best was 87octane inferior
ua-cam.com/video/ImEpk1s-Vk0/v-deo.html
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