1887 Winchester - The Rube Goldberg Device of Shotguns
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
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John Browning wanted to make a pump action shotgun but Winchester insisted on a lever action because it was "their brand". This..thing...is the result.
It works.
Kinda.
People love it because..movies. Video games.
Why do you want this, again?
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Terminator 2. Thats Why.
I now know why you cry
100%
Thats IT.
@@pripjatyfighter3786 You’ve gotta admit, though, in Terminator 2 it is easily the sexiest gun ever committed to film.
the motorcycle is just a modern day horse
Don't forget the Australian market.
back when the jailers banned semi-autos and pump-action shotguns, they completely forgot that lever action shotguns existed.
Lever action shotguns were added to the restriction list a few years ago. however, the law states they must have a magazine holding over 5 rounds, which makes me wonder if the extra 2 you can cram into an 1887 winchester technically still makes it banned.
@@Marc83AusThe wording, in Qld anyway, is "5+1" so maybe technically? But I doubt the fuzz would bother doing anything even if they found out because it's just some old cowboy gun. They only started caring about the Adler when people started strapping tacticool stuff to them. As a side note, I am the proud owner of possibly the world's only trench Adler 😂 Managed to luck my way into a repro handguard/bayonet lug and bolted them to my A110.
@@matthewn4896 I'm shocked that we havent yet banned any rifle that has any possibility of a bayonet being attached to it.
@@Marc83Aus The amount of SMLEs in circulation would make that almost impossible I think 🤣
@@Marc83Aus I have one and no laws changed there was talk of it being a cat c but never happened in qld
You forgot the biggest reason that gun is highly desirable - "lever gun fun" and "big lever gun more funner"
This is my biggest reason for wanting one
Exactlt not every gun in a collection nust be for pure tactical purpose
Sometimes a range toy is a range toy
Granted it is still a shotgun and can find uses
The biggest reason is T2.
They trying to claim lever actions are assault weapons un believable
I had a 1st year production that I bought around 2005 for $700 at a gun auction. It was my main pheasant/quail gun for six years. Smooth....reliable... and great fun to shoot. It always got a lot of attention because most had never seen one.
"I need your clothes, your boots, and your motorcycle". I have to agree. Pop culture made that shotgun popular lol.
You didn’t say “please”…
in the words of marge simpson "I just think they're neat"
Me with my love of garbage early self loading pistols
1887 fans and BAR fans bonding over Browning's jankiest children that were still moderately successful
I have been using an 1887 replica for my cowboy matches for several years. The Chiappa is a very nice reproduction of the Winchester 1887 shotgun however my ching-chou Chinese replica works great and cost one-third of the Chiappa. The secret of using the 1887 is using 2 1/2" shotgun shells. The original 1887 receiver was designed for 2 1/2 inch brass shotshells. The modern 2 3/4" shotgun shells sometimes catch on the chamber edge during ejection which results in a bad ejection. RTS shotshells sells 2 1/2" target loads that work outstanding in the 1887. My theory is the repros are chambered for 2 3/4 inch shotshells however the receiver dimensions are the same as the original designed for 2 1/2 inch shotshells. At least that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
It might be strange and have some odd quirks, but that is why the 1887 and the LeMat revolver personally appeal to me
I have to agree with you about the Lematt revolver but the 1887 lever action is a bit too quirky for me. I've been wanting an 1897 12 gauge for the entirety of my adult life. Whenever I find one they are either too beat up or too expensive or both.
Me Too!!!! Looks like a nice hefty gun
Thats my hunt showdown class right there.
I guess this design didn't evolve so that the solution to the carrier screws getting loose would be locking screws like the Auto-5s did eventually.
Your discipline at not saying the "Goddamn it" out loud during the malfunctions is impressive.
Thanks!
im surprised thats what people say, the few times ive had that with my gun ive audibly said "what the f**k?"
Pop culture has not lied to me, I don't care what issues they have, it's the Terminator 2 shotgun and a browning design, it's a certified classic in my book
The 2 3/4" shotgun shell wasn't standard before 1925(ish). Prior to that the standard was 2.5" and that produces some of the issues with antique repeaters, especially upon ejection. When that 2 3/4" inch hull opens the front actually brushes the front of the action as you eject which is why you need that "forceful" ejection. The gun was designed for 2.5" shells and you're shooting 2 3/4" shells. With some calipers you can measure the length of various brands of shells and you'll find they differ slightly from company to company. You'll want to measure fired hulls because most of that length difference is because of how they are crimped. Choose the company with the shortest hulls and you'll have fewer issues.
Thank you for the info. And thanks Karl for the video
Winchester AA seem to have the shortest shells that I have found.
Will it shoot and cycle Aguila mini shells?
@@clone4211I have tried them in a 1887 Cimarron and it will not run them.
You could also reload hulls and trim off the factory crimp. Load it up with an overshot card and roll crimp it down.
Thanks Karl, I appreciate your honesty on that 1887. I love old western guns and have thought a lot of getting one. I believe I'll think about it a little longer. Thank you for all your hard work and time Sir.
Do you need one? No. Are they practical? No. Are there better shotguns? Yes. Is it just freaking cool and thats why you should get one? Hell yes.
Cool pieces of technology, just like i want a matchlock musket
Clearly, any functionality problems are user error. One has to have the proper Clothes, Boots and Motorcycle.....
Just as John Browning intended.
Also the correct technique for working the lever.
When I was a kid, I hunted with an original 1887 12 gauge. It had a 30" Full choke, and whether hunting deer or ducks, it did the job. Heavy as all get out, though.
The story of the 1887 never fails to bring a chuckle. JMB must have thought, even if he never said "I told you so".
Hey hey, @InrangeTV I'm a gunsmith from Hungary (But nowadays anybody can claim that) and when we got double barrel shotguns in school for fixing and cleaning and whatnot, most of the people (With external Hammer Designs) complained about the hammer screws coming loose all the time.
What we usually did was that we drilled out the screwholes, and put a negative thread in it (Negative compared to theoriginal threading) so when the hammer strike, it actually tightens the screws instead of loosening them.
Maybe it would work on a Winchester 1887 as well, who knows?
They key question to ask when anyone asks "Is XYZ reliable" is "How many other companies copied the design and put out their own version?" If the answer is "Oh, everybody did, companies came up producing nothing but ripoffs of it" that's a key that the design is solid and it's pretty reliable. If the answer is "Uh, well, that company didn't even stay with the design for that long" there's probably an obvious reason for that, and it's likely flaws in the design. As such, that's probably why the '87 Winchie, while revolutionary in its day, didn't really stick too long before other better ideas surpassed it. If anything, it should be credited with opening designers eyes to repeating shotgun possibilities, like pumpguns.
Why want one? My Dad used a 12 and a 10 gauge in the late 1930's. Times were tough. He said he made sinkers out of his slugs and slugs from sinkers depending on food availability.
It is a absolutely uncanny. For the last 3 weeks I have been really considering getting an 1887. I researched its quirks and had basically found all the issues with the gun from other people and still wanted it. I hadn't even seen your competition video. Now seeing this and your own issues you'e had...I still want it. Just have to save up and bide my time to get it.
Is it the most effective tool? No.
Would I be remiss in buying a pump alternative? No.
Is it better than no tool? Yes.
Will I feel like a cowboy? Yes.
So its worth it.
Cimarron's 1887 is the one I'm going with. I hear they have excellent quality control for it. It's made in China, though, but for 500-600 dollars, it sure is a better price point than other clones.
@@Morgan_Blackhand I got mine a little while ago. People say its a rough action but it feels smooth. Just have to make sure you do the full forward motion when levering.
My only complaint is with a little of its fit and finish. The top of the bolt is rubbing on something on the inside of the action and has stripped its finish off. I thought about sending it back but I might fix and refinish it myself and do a true blue job as the matte finish is okay, at best.
Stop ruining my preconceived fantasies with “facts” and “truth”.
😂
I love my 1887. Though technically it’s a 1901 replica because of the two piece lever. I came home from a scout fair on my 13th birthday and there is see on the dining room table a box that had a picture of the 1887 on it. My dad said he got it for me because I expressed interest in it though it was because I saw it in The Mummy 2, not T2. When he went to Collectors Firearms in Houston, they said they had 3 of them on hand, 3 original production guns. He got me a much cheaper Chinese replica instead.
My gun has been fairly reliable for me. I haven’t had any issues with the hammer being too soft or weirdness with ammo, though I’ve only ever shot birdshot out of it since I used it shooting trap, but I have shot it a lot without issue. I dunno if it’s just my gun or maybe my gun being an updated 1901 model, I don’t need to pull the trigger to drop a shell onto the carrier. As soon as I close the action, it drops a shell. I do have to tighten the screws on it every once in a while and the front bead fell off forever ago.
It is a weird and quirky design that has to be run just right to run at all, but I kinda love it for that. Thanks for covering this weird and awesome gun!
I'm not the only one that wants one because of the mummy 2 instead of T2. Don't get me wrong terminator is great but it's the mares leg version. Ok I want both
The rundown I've been waiting for on my favourite gun!
Why do I want it... I took a chance on a Chinese repro for cheap and it became my favourite gun of all time. I always walk away from shooting it with a big smile on my face, the feeling of levering in 12 gauge shells is such a unique and fun feeling. It being John Browning's red headed step child is also a cool historical anecdote on it, and a credit to his ability to just make what he was asked.
It has its annoyances and quirks, but it fits me like a glove. Cheap to shoot, and it's been fully adequate for my introduction to grouse hunting. Love the 1887, every quirk and problem and perk.
Problems and quirks suck at competitions and in "real life". Glad you enjoy yours, of course.
I want one specifically because it is a finicky unreliable problem child
I love my junk project guns
they make me feel like a real gunsmith when I fix stuff and it works right for a while
Love fixing junk! I have a Merwin Hulbert that was rusted deep on one side and believe it or not the barrel was slightly bent in two places, broken springs and worse. After heating the barrel red hot and straightening on a lathe turned mandrel, springs from scratch, rust blued then worn down. Dad was even dubious that it could fire safely but hand loaded with light black powder loads, it lives again.
I keep getting amazed by how huge it actually is. In the hands of a T-800 it almost looks like a Mare's Leg.
I believe the movie version had a cut off stock and a short barrel
@@christophernemeth421 Yes, I know that. Everybody knows that.
But look at that _massive_ receiver in relation to a normal guy, then watch the scenes when Arnold carries it.
Yeah, Arnold makes it look like a toy when it's a big lump in reality! Though apparently he did almost break his hand doing the twirly reload thing, so they made him a lighter prop.
@@alun7006
Close. Apparently they made him the lighter version for the spinning reload, and he practiced with it extensively. Then he was being interviewed and wanted to show off, grabbed the wrong one, and that's when he wrenched his hand and wrist.
@@eldorados_lost_searcher
Almost. To my knowledge, they had a total of three real guns (I'll need to double check if they were original black powder guns or later reproductions) to be used for filming.
The one that was specifically meant for spinning had an enlarged loop to make room for the user's hand/fingers. Arnold grabbed one of the other guns which had the standard size lever and thus twisted his fingers really badly when he tried to do the spin.
It amazes me that guns we think are cool because of TV and movies get reviewed and you find out that they are clunky in real life like this lever action shotgun, or just outright garbage like the street-sweeper and the MAC 10. Streetsweepers and MAC 10's look so cool in the movies and TV but enough online reviews reveal they are trash. Too bad because I think they are still cool.
Fun fact: they only used this shotgun in Terminator 2 because James Cameron really liked how John Wayne flip-cocked his mare’s leg in True Grit
Except that wasn’t a Mare’s Leg
A Chiappa with soft metal parts, why I absolutely never would have guessed!
Seriously though, had a M4-22 upper and it cured me of the want to buy anything Chiappa again.
Nothing will tell you how disappointed i was to drop almost 2k on my case hardened chiappa mares leg, only to find it VERY quickly that its a POS. And its not even chiappas fault.
Love the video and love the scarf Karl ! Keep it up !
That's a khamas scarf bud
Have an original and a repro AND YOU ARE SO RIGHT! I love the scene in Mummy Returns when Rick is trying to reload his "87 on the run, and just gives up!
Reproduction 1887s became popular here in Australia after pump action and semi auto shotguns became heavily restricted in 1996. They have been largely replaced by modern Turkish lever action shotguns and straight pull bolt action shotguns.
I have ran a few versions of this shotgun. I can confirm the clunckyness is a product of the design itself and not one particular manufacturer. Still fun though. In fact, I would say the clunky nature of the gun makes it more fun to run.
Admit it men's obsession with "troublesome" guns is synonymous with cars. Logistically we should all own Corollas and Civics. But that's not nearly as fun as fixing your '87 Chevy's fan belt FOR THE 6TH GODDAMN TIME!!!!
There’s a purple loctite that is weaker than the blue. You can also use pipe thread tape
Cheap clear fingernail polish has become my go-to, especially on sensitive/fine-thread screws.
1) Coolness
2) it's different
3) gun control (In Australia lever shotguns are very very popular due to pumps being illegal
4) Terminator
My Chinese 1897 was rough. Sold it and regret it. I had an 1887 and 1901 originals in 10 gauge. Sold them and didn't regret it.
Third reason - gun legislation in certain countries. Pump-action shotguns are banned in Austria and Australia, lever-action shotguns are not (with the Australian market probably being the more interesting one). So...
If you want a more time proper loctite solution you could use a pine pitch or even just the sap. It'll harden like loctite but you can remove it with heat. My great grandad used to do that with his guns
Its fine gun don't down play it I have an original Winchester it works fine but it's a 2 and 5/8 chamber not 2 and 3/4.
As I recall, John Browning told Winchester that he'd rather just finish his pump design, but they said "we sell lever actions."
He knew this was not a great design, but Winchester's money spends as good as anyone else's. The 1893/97 is the Browning design that's fully baked.
the 1893 would shoot flaming powder into its users eyes though.
@@ytho8217 Don't be obtuse. I literally said 1893/97.
Is it possible to have a video on why pump action works better for shotguns and bolt and lever action work better for rifles? I always wondered why that's the case. Is it the size and form of the cartridge?
If you have to pull the trigger to move a round from the magazine to the lifter ... How do you unload the thing? Are you expected to ride the hammer down seven times? Or just burn them off into soft ground?
Awesome firearm I've always wanted, just not for $930.
My favorite shotgun is the _other_ one with an iconic scene in a James Cameron movie-the Ithaca Model 37.
"I like to keep this handy..." _CHA-CHAK_ "...for close encounters."
(Also, I'm a lefty and the Ithaca ejects out the bottom)
Thanks for another great video, Karl!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Leather wrap on the lever: check. When i hand mine to interested shooters i always tell them don't baby it- she likes it rough. Mine actually runs pretty well but you have to treat it like a rented mule.
6:52 I had this exact same issue with a charter arms revolver's transfer bar. Transfer bar was soft and starting to mushroom out, getting light primer strikes and actually started getting caught/stuck/dragging on the firing pin as well making the trigger pull abyssal.
I just got one of the new Cimarron versions and am extremely happy with it. Smooth as butter action. The carrier comes up cleanly when you reach bottom of the cycle stroke and it feeds well. So a big thumbs up on this incarnation of the gun.
Glad to hear it!
I don’t want it
But it’s stats are slightly better then the pump for some reason
Idk game balance or something
It can effectively stun a T-1000, allowing you time to escape.
1911s are quirky too but we still love them. I have one of the newest generation of Cimarron repros and it shoots like a champ. She just likes it rough, is all. Gotta really work that lever.
Is it practical? No. Does anyone besides total freaking gun pedants care? No.
I'm wondering if the screws loosening isn't part of how the hammer deforms. Regardless, thank you for some reality-based mythbusting.
Not really fan of how it is loaded; the mag tube is such a hassle because it's at the bottom one.
It was never designed to be a speed cycled firearm, not in the 1880s and not now. It was designed as a hunting firearm not a "gunfighter" gun. My grandpa had an original, longer barrel, functioned flawlessly.
Cool firearm, but it would be to finky for me. Thank you.
Speaking of pop culture, my introduction to the 1887 Winchester was in the Alan Moore run of Swamp Thing, of all places. It even mentions how it wasn't even the best gun at the time, it's got issues, but there's still a few reproductions a year for people who are into that.
Lever action click clack activates monkey neurons
Bought 1 when i turned 18, never regretted it a day in my life
Very interesting. Well done showing your process. Thanks.
Yes. first.
Have an original, fell in love with them from rhe western movie Desperado (1987). Mine has been very reliable. Thinking of getting a Cimarron to convert to 70-110. If you think an 1887 is quirky you should shoot a Spencer Pump Shotgun! Have 2 of them. The Spencer predates the Winchester 1893/1897. They started in 1882.
So it’s the Delorean of firearms?
The nice reproductions are really desireable. Dad had originals he didnt shoot much, if at all. When the reproductions quality level increased he bought a few for shooting. He did not like the new look and was masterful at giving them a well used, maintained look. We both knowingly bought originals and repros to repair. All too often the repro parts needed massive amounts of fitting to make them work.
Try all of that with black powder shells!
Lithgow Small Arms in Australia tried to make 1887 shotguns for the Cowboy crowd over here decades ago. But they could never get the leaf springs to work satisfactorily (too soft or they broke IIRC) - all the 'old timers' who made leaf springs for the SMLE had long retired and the new crew only understood coil springs.
Absolutely educating view on 1887 shotguns, thanks from a CAS shooter from a jurisdiction where pump-action shotguns are prohibited.
There is a great video put out by the gunsmith that worked closely with the Chinese company on behalf of century arms, and he helped the Chinese maker produce a very good copy in the century arms replica, the PW87A. That is what I have. It works flawlessly, with roll crimped 2 1/2 to max 2 3/4” shells. In the video I referenced, he goes over the minutia of what he had to go through with the Chinese maker to get a superior product. You video is great as well BTW! Thanks for your awesome content!
The good modern warfare 2.
Try pink lock tight for small soft screws we use it on brass screws on the restraints of roller coasters
Do you know which number it is? 222 is low strength but purple?
They make many different types.
Thanks
Fun fact: John Browning never wanted to design this shotgun, but Oliver Winchester persisted by requesting that Browning design it as a lever action against JMB's impeccable better judgment.
I've always wanted one due to my preference for modern reproductions of historical firearms but I think I'll stick with my original s×s Ithaca made in 1909 given to me by my only brother. Along with my Rossi M92 lever rifle and my Uberti made Remington 1875 pistol.
Someone call the Turks and tell them to make some 1897s.
Uzkon La877 is the best!!!!
I have a Chiappa 1887 myself. I have the same problem with the screws wanting to back out. lol
But... I'm not having nearly the problems you're having with ammo selection, I've put alot of different brands and loads though mine and I've only come across one that's ever given me the kind of problems you're having. And those shells would be Baschieri and pellagri predator buckshot.
With those shells I can only load 4 in the tube, and they'll stick and be hard to cycle. But that's not unique to my 1887, my Remington 870 doesn't like them either and they're next to impossible to cycle through it.
I suspect that it's because they're roll crimp shells, and even though they're 2 3/4" they're just a smidge longer when they're unfired than the typical star crimp shells.
Other than the 1887 and the S&W Model 29 of Dirty Harry-fame, it's hard for me to think of other guns whose rise in popularity can be traced back to one single film (or film-character in the case of the S&W). Yes: The Desert Eagle was all over action-flicks from the mid 80s onward, but I don't think that one could argue that it was "Year of the Dragon" (its first ever appearance IIRC) or "Commando" (first time Arnold used one) that made it a household name/design. What's kinda weird in this particular case is that it was a more or less ancient and terribly outdated design and that its inclusion in a sci-fi action movie dealing with high-tech concepts like cyborgs and using brand new, state-of-the-art CG was what brought it to the public's attention. More than 100 years after it had been designed.
You could also buy the 1901 version, in smokeless 10 gauge(or 12 gauge). All the old quality of the 1887 without the black powder, shoots modern light loads. Sense no one seems to know or care about the 1901 Winchester, you can get it for cheap. I got mine for $300 at a local gun show.
I wonder if these guns work better with paper or brass cartridges, sense that is what they are designed for?
The gun Browning didn't want to build. He had designed a slide action but Winchester wanted a lever action. Because...Winchester. There's a reason it was not nearly as successful as the Browning designed pump action Winchester eventually produced.
Movies have made guns popular, not always for good reason. Even the S&W Model 29 .44 Magnum made famous and in demand by "Dirty Harry" was often purchased, and then never used.
I'm curious, was the mushroomed hammer binding on the sides as well, slowing it down and causing light striking?
I'm sure Mr. Browning kept his thoughts/opinions to himself when Winchester basically forced him to design the shotgun but I'm pretty sure they ran along the line of: "Sure, I'll design just such a shotgun for you. The design is going to cost you X amount....Pay me....Pay me now.". And then he sold his pump action design. And we all know who bought that one.
If John Browning had gone back to lever action shotguns a few years later and used a scaled up 1886 or 1894 action, he probably would have had a lot more success. The 1887 seems like a prototype that shouldn't have been released.
This gun was one of many reasons I hated CoD: MW2. People with an OP build running around dual-wielding spin-cocking 1887s were just so damn goofy
So you ante up for the best of breed Chiappa, find out what ammunition yours likes, Loctite the screws, check the hardness on your hammer and replace if defective, then practice loading and cycling with dummy shells until you know how to operate your chosen device properly. At that point, what are the actual quirks or failures to look out for? I get that the 1897 is a stronger, smoother, easier to use shotgun. But if your explanation is that the 1887 doesn't work when it has defective parts/isn't screwed together all the way/isn't operated correctly, then...yeah, of course. Most guns wouldn't.
I am under zero illusions about how (not) great the 1887 is, but can't help but love mine. It has done admirably in SASS and on upland game and clays, despite being the El cheapo Chinese version. The 97 is better by every measurable standard though.
So just like the LeMat.
Also Chiappa and the Italians are known for cutting corners and selling things that don’t really work because hey people will buy them. So I wouldn’t hold them up as quality. Like their Spencer repros that A) have the lane extractor which was a failed subtype the original company only tried on a few thousand guns before going back to the earlier blade type. And B) chambering it in modern calibers that are too long of a COAL for the action which funny enough was known to be too long all the way back to period tests in the 1860s during development of the .56-50 Spencer which was the first government standardized metallic cartridge hence the short lived boom at the end of the civil war to shortly post war when everything from Remington split breeches to sharps were chambered in it.
Watching Tenacious Trilobite's video on the 1901 kinda gives a decent picture as well as to how finicky the system is. Video games made it look cool, but upon watching actual shooting footage and the PoV from TT, it really shows just how clunky the whole system is.
I hope this isnt a stupid question, but why would ut be more difficult to make a shotgun in lever action than something like a 45-70?
Seems like a similar but scaoed up action would work.....
I've actually lost screws while using a Chiappa 1887 - Loctite did me no favors...
Because of pop culture. And let's take the best parts of both shotguns and lever actions and put them together. Large spread. Check. Cool swing lever trick like from terminator. Check. Looks awesome. Check. Cool reload animations in videogames, check. Your thesis has been disproven, moving on.
Original 1887 shotguns loaded with the correct length of shell seem to work just fine. 10 Gauge 2 7/8” shells that is. It’s a pretty slick gun, though today the design leaves much to be desired.
To Be Honest that is one of my life questions that I been trying to answer for a while
Why Do I want a 1887 Winchester ?
I’m glad that this video made me finally answer that question 👁️👄👁️👌🏻
I have a Norinco one, it runs reliably, after our CAS gunsmith worked over it and with the right ammo.
It is cool, but main reason I have it - pump action shotguns are banned in Austria :(
It is fun, but in no way competitive in Wild Bunch matches against shooters from other countries with 1897 guns
Carl - In you comments about the pros and cons of acquiring either a reproduction or an original 1887 Winchester shotgun it may have informed some of your followers to mention that the original model was built for use with black powder, will require that the owner load his/her own black powder shot shells and the extreme danger to the shotgun and the owner (;-) should smokeless powder loads be used. I'd hope that no one following your posts would not be aware of this but the danger to an uninformed user is very real. As you mentioned, the John Browning designed 1897 Winchester pump action shotgun was the first successful mass produced shotgun for use with smokeless powder.
so in terms of public perception versus functional design, the 1887 is incredibly similar to the SPAS-12
I would say there is a caveat to your findings all be they aren't inherently wrong. The winchester 1887 is not the final iteration of the design of the gun. Just like the 1893 pump action that turned into the model 97 we all know today the 1887 became the 1901. Both the 93 and the 87 were both made for weaker black powder shells and had many shortcomings in their design being the first iteration as we can see in the progression of Browning's 1911 design before the final model and the ever constant change in design and technology used in the various rifles he made for winchester.
Initially he didn't want to make winchester a lever shotgun and often times they used to just come and buy his new designs and were happy with them. So he did what he could but you could argue hypothetically that his heart wasn't into the design, compared to the lengths he went to with the model 8 or the auto 5. Circling back to the winchester he made the 93 after the 87 to prove the concept he had about pump actions being the superior design for shotguns vs winchesters desire to attempt to have possibly a scaled up 1886 in some form. Winchester bought the 93 out of fear for other companies like remington or colt getting an edge in the market but he (Browning) still perfected the shortcomings it had to help its sales at market which initially weren't doing super well with the issues the design had.
He later then fixes some of the shortcomings the 1887 had by converting the weaker action to take smokeless powder which was on the rise as becoming the industry norm at the time. It was then finished in 1901 and only sold in 10G so as not to compete with sales from the 97 which was their offering in the 12, 20, and I believe 16 gauge markets till the model 12's design was introduced. So there is an improved version of the 1887 and what tends to happen is company's like Chiappa end up inheriting the previous flaws and don't get any of the improvements of the lesser known 1901 that was intended for the smokeless shells that is the norm today .
Having to "fire" an 1887 shotgun to get a shell onto the lifter, seems like an accident just waiting to happen...
Although, being "the first of its kind" (repeating shotgun) I guess the design should be given a bit of slack in that regard.
I couldn't tell ya. I LOVE lever actions, and shotguns have always been cool so having one weapon that is both just tickles that 'joy' part of my brain. same reason I love revolvers, shame a lever-action revolving shotgun doesn't exist. then i'd be in heaven.
Hey i got my Winchester 1901!
10ga 2 7/8 !
Can’t find the ammo but at least it’s smokeless!
Hurray
The carrier screws would seem to be a good application for Vibra-Tite's VC-3 threadlocker. Rather than the typical anaerobic threadlocker that's assembled wet, dries between the threads and retains until being disassembled (once); VC-3 is painted on the screw threads and allowed to dry. The dried VC-3 remains soft, so when assembled it serves the same thread retaining function as the nylon insert in a Nyloc nut. The fastener can be adjusted removed and reused without requiring another application to still work. It doesn't last forever under repeated disassembly, but when it wears out the dried compound can be cleaned off and reapplied. I would recommend not putting any on the first couple threads of a fine thread screw, as it can be easier to get the screw started in the threads correctly without the VC-3 being there, especially the first assembly after application.
For me the 1887 shotguns fall in the interesting, but not something I want to own category. I am fascinated by the progression of firearms design over the years, and always wonder how does the industry decide that a basic design is good enough, lets just run with it. In this case of repeating shotguns, start with an intentional handicap by a marketing decision, move on to a different mechanism entirely like pumps, and start tweaking those designs until they run well and are cheap to make while concurrently exploring semi-auto designs and going through the same design processes.
Great video!