58:40 There's a difference between general involvement with something that once had pagan origins (like Thursday being Thor's Day, etc.) and -religious- involvement with those things. Going out of your way to involve controversial relics in your advent worship is categorically different. I don't think purity of worship is appreciated enough in these conversations. Paul knew idols were nothing, but still warns of mixing Christ with Belial. Famous TV shows and movies actively make fun of Christians for their practices, so there's also a concern over our testimony before educated pagans who know none of the trappings of X-Mass are prescribed by the bible. "If everyone admits the most prominent Christian 'holy day' is completely made up, imagine what else is made up."
The tree has always been a symbol of Christ for my family in that Christ died on a tree, we put lights on the tree as Christ is the light of the world, we put gold ornaments to symbolize the gifts to Christ at his birth, and bulbs could symbolize that Christ died not just for Israel but for the world.
The 51:30 mention of the Bronze Serpent is ironic because Hezekiah eventually destroys it because of an idolatrous connection. God never ordained that it be used in an ongoing worship in any way and Israel taking liberties in formal worship even with objects that God created for a good purpose is not without its dangers. Including historically pagan paraphernalia in your nativity worship seems so obviously wrong to me. The fact that so much time is defending our involvement of trees in worship of Christ's birth is bizarre, but even if the tree has no necessary pagan connections, many other relics do and some of the fathers chastised Christians for using a wreath in the early church. So much more could be said, of course.
Yes, similar story with Gideon and the Ephod he constructs, although there I think Gideon was wrong to make the Ephod in the first place. Appreciate your comment and interaction.
The St. Boniface Legend of the Christmas tree is a complete work of fiction - it's a modern myth which originated from a short story by one Henry van Dyke called “The Oak of Geismar” published in 1891. It's literally no older than that. Historical similarity does not equate to historical sameness. Some ancient cultures brought evergreen boughs into houses and temples, but not a shred of historical evidence suggests trees in either Roman or Norse traditions. The origins of Christmas trees are rooted in present-day Germany and date to the 15th century. The first mention of Christmas trees is in an Alsace ordinance in 1561. Almost no early Germanic pagans thought pine trees were sacred, let alone associated with Christmas. Germanic tribes believed the oak was sacred, not the evergreen tree. The Christmas tree morphed over from so-called paradise trees. There were many allegorical-type plays done in the Middle Ages at various markets. One such play was called the Paradise Play, performed to celebrate the feast day of Adam and Eve, which fell on Christmas Eve. In the dead of winter, not a lot of trees are available, so the “tree of knowledge” was represented by an evergreen fir with apples tied to its branches. There is documentation of trees decorated with wool thread, straw, apples, nuts and pretzels. After the play, the treats would be eaten. The practice likely gave way to having trees in the house at Christmas. In 1419 for example, a guild in Freiburg put up a tree decorated with apples, flour-paste wafers, tinsel and gingerbread. The Christmas tree is not historically attested any earlier than this time period. People like to read what they want rather than what's actually written - the Biblical account in Jeremiah is of a tree cut down and its _trunk_ fashioned into an idol and adorned with gold and silver. The passage refers to the making/carving of a wooden idol from the trunk of a tree and then applying gold/silver leaf to it - a popular technique to adorn wooden objects - think of the funerary objects found in King Tut’s tomb; many were wood with gold leaf applique. The Biblical reference has absolutely nothing to do with an actual tree or Christmas trees in general. The idea that Christmas and its traditions are pagan actually comes from die-hard Protestant fundamentalists in the seventeenth, eighteenth, and nineteenth centuries. In those centuries, many Protestants regarded holidays like Christmas and Easter as “popery” and therefore sought to discredit them by linking them with ancient paganism. The idea that Christmas might be pagan was advanced as early as 1648 in the work Certain Queries Touching the Rise and Observation of Christmas, written by the Puritan Joseph Heming. Later fundamentalist preachers/writers really took the idea and ran with it.
Do you have any peer-reviewed resource that verifies the claim that the Boniface story originated with Henry van Dyke in 1891? Would be interested in searching that out!
I will try to carve out some time to look it up. Though I don't think Christmas generally has pagan origins, it is good to know where I might find some good resources on the issue. I appreciate you sharing that.
58:40 There's a difference between general involvement with something that once had pagan origins (like Thursday being Thor's Day, etc.) and -religious- involvement with those things. Going out of your way to involve controversial relics in your advent worship is categorically different. I don't think purity of worship is appreciated enough in these conversations. Paul knew idols were nothing, but still warns of mixing Christ with Belial. Famous TV shows and movies actively make fun of Christians for their practices, so there's also a concern over our testimony before educated pagans who know none of the trappings of X-Mass are prescribed by the bible.
"If everyone admits the most prominent Christian 'holy day' is completely made up, imagine what else is made up."
The tree has always been a symbol of Christ for my family in that Christ died on a tree, we put lights on the tree as Christ is the light of the world, we put gold ornaments to symbolize the gifts to Christ at his birth, and bulbs could symbolize that Christ died not just for Israel but for the world.
That is neat symbolism! Thanks for sharing that.
Your URL to the Nissenbaum PDF is 'broken,' just need to remove the ) from the end, but FYI!
Thanks for the heads up on that!
The 51:30 mention of the Bronze Serpent is ironic because Hezekiah eventually destroys it because of an idolatrous connection.
God never ordained that it be used in an ongoing worship in any way and Israel taking liberties in formal worship even with objects that God created for a good purpose is not without its dangers.
Including historically pagan paraphernalia in your nativity worship seems so obviously wrong to me.
The fact that so much time is defending our involvement of trees in worship of Christ's birth is bizarre, but even if the tree has no necessary pagan connections, many other relics do and some of the fathers chastised Christians for using a wreath in the early church.
So much more could be said, of course.
Yes, similar story with Gideon and the Ephod he constructs, although there I think Gideon was wrong to make the Ephod in the first place. Appreciate your comment and interaction.
The St. Boniface Legend of the Christmas tree is a complete work of fiction - it's a modern myth which originated from a short story by one Henry van Dyke called “The Oak of Geismar” published in 1891. It's literally no older than that.
Historical similarity does not equate to historical sameness. Some ancient cultures brought evergreen boughs into houses and temples, but not a shred of historical evidence suggests trees in either Roman or Norse traditions.
The origins of Christmas trees are rooted in present-day Germany and date to the 15th century. The first mention of Christmas trees is in an Alsace ordinance in 1561. Almost no early Germanic pagans thought pine trees were sacred, let alone associated with Christmas. Germanic tribes believed the oak was sacred, not the evergreen tree.
The Christmas tree morphed over from so-called paradise trees. There were many allegorical-type plays done in the Middle Ages at various markets. One such play was called the Paradise Play, performed to celebrate the feast day of Adam and Eve, which fell on Christmas Eve. In the dead of winter, not a lot of trees are available, so the “tree of knowledge” was represented by an evergreen fir with apples tied to its branches. There is documentation of trees decorated with wool thread, straw, apples, nuts and pretzels. After the play, the treats would be eaten. The practice likely gave way to having trees in the house at Christmas. In 1419 for example, a guild in Freiburg put up a tree decorated with apples, flour-paste wafers, tinsel and gingerbread. The Christmas tree is not historically attested any earlier than this time period.
People like to read what they want rather than what's actually written - the Biblical account in Jeremiah is of a tree cut down and its _trunk_ fashioned into an idol and adorned with gold and silver. The passage refers to the making/carving of a wooden idol from the trunk of a tree and then applying gold/silver leaf to it - a popular technique to adorn wooden objects - think of the funerary objects found in King Tut’s tomb; many were wood with gold leaf applique. The Biblical reference has absolutely nothing to do with an actual tree or Christmas trees in general.
The idea that Christmas and its traditions are pagan actually comes from die-hard Protestant fundamentalists in the seventeenth, eighteenth, and nineteenth centuries. In those centuries, many Protestants regarded holidays like Christmas and Easter as “popery” and therefore sought to discredit them by linking them with ancient paganism. The idea that Christmas might be pagan was advanced as early as 1648 in the work Certain Queries Touching the Rise and Observation of Christmas, written by the Puritan Joseph Heming. Later fundamentalist preachers/writers really took the idea and ran with it.
Do you have any peer-reviewed resource that verifies the claim that the Boniface story originated with Henry van Dyke in 1891? Would be interested in searching that out!
The UA-camr “Religion for Beeakfast” Has good videos in the supposed pagan origins of Christmas
I will try to carve out some time to look it up. Though I don't think Christmas generally has pagan origins, it is good to know where I might find some good resources on the issue. I appreciate you sharing that.
@ the bloggers at triablogue also have some good resources in posts of November this year.
The chirstmas tree is the god Attis
Where are you drawing that from? 🤔