Bring on Don Preston..His contact is on his youtube site and websites. This would help correct possible error or oversight on either side. How do we explain Col 1:23 and Mark 13:10?
I mentioned the same thing on other videos and got crickets back. Interesting isn't it. In a day and time where they could so easily bring Don on there is no effort too.
Irenaeus mentions about the 616 variant in Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 30.1: "Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; that is, the number of tens shall be equal to that of the hundreds, and the number of hundreds equal to that of the units (for that number which [expresses] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end) - I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads they will have it that there is but one. [I am inclined to think that this occurred through the fault of the copyists, as is wont to happen, since numbers also are expressed by letters; so that the Greek letter which expresses the number sixty was easily expanded into the letter Iota of the Greeks.] Others then received this reading without examination; some in their simplicity, and upon their own responsibility, making use of this number expressing one decad; while some, in their inexperience, have ventured to seek out a name which should contain the erroneous and spurious number. Now, as regards those who have done this in simplicity, and without evil intent, we are at liberty to assume that pardon will be granted them by God. But as for those who, for the sake of vainglory, lay it down for certain that names containing the spurious number are to be accepted, and affirm that this name, hit upon by themselves, is that of him who is to come; such persons shall not come forth without loss, because they have led into error both themselves and those who confided in them. Now, in the first place, it is loss to wander from the truth, and to imagine that as being the case which is not; then again, as there shall be no light punishment [inflicted] upon him who either adds or subtracts anything from the Scripture, Revelation 22:19 under that such a person must necessarily fall. Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against."
In the manuscripts where Greek letters are used to symbolize numbers, 'χ̅ξ̅ϛ̅' is 666. In manuscript P115, it's 'χ̅ι ̅ϛ̅' for 616. Notice the difference? Irenaeus is asking his reader to believ that an ξ̅' became an 'ι'...pretty silly. That can't be a scribal error. Irenaeus is offering his opinion here, whatever his motivations, and it's not authoritative. It's not even believable. There are actually 2 variants that have 616: P115 and C 04. If the final 'nun' of Nero is removed from the Hebrew 'נרון', the total is 616 since nun was worth 50. It makes sense since Nero wouldn't be pronounced/spelled as 'Neron' in Latin or Greek. My view is that 616 was presented based on the audience. Calculation from an understanding man, as Revelation 13:8 demands, was required. @thebiblesojourner
@@JR-rs5qs It is possible that 616 was an intentional change. But then we would have to have a compelling explanation for why it exists that way. The appeal to Latin doesn't seem very convincing to me... but maybe I just haven't heard a great case for it. Furthermore, the printed letters of ξ and ι may be noticeable in computer screens, but hand written manuscripts are often different. I often confuse all sorts of letters that should "not" be confused when I'm reading Greek manuscripts. It happens.
@@thebiblesojourner that's because you're not a native Greek speaker/writer. How could it be plausible that Latin would be appealed to? Because the entire 'world' at that time was ruled by Romans who spoke....Latin.
Michael Vlach is the go to. His book, He will Reign Forever, is very helpful. He also wrote a small booklet on dispensational hermeneutics. I also would recommend everything by Paul Henebury.
I appreciate you doing a video on this. But I have a rebuttal: John very specifically says "Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast", yet you go on the rest of the video basically trashing the attempt that numerous people throughout the years have attempted (your camp isn't excluded from trying to calculate the number of the beast and the attempts are quite fantastical sometimes) to do this very thing. It takes understanding to calculate, so why is it so far fetched for these translations that work out Nero to be six hundred and six (note: it's not 6-6-6)? You're basically criticizing what the text says is necessary. Especially since Revelation was about about things that were shortly to come to pass, a 1st century identity is proper. Revelation was absolutely not written in AD 95. I now laugh at this (I used to believe this so I don't mean to be rude) because it makes the book completely nonsensical since nothing shortly came to pass in the reign of the Domitian or thereafter. The evidence shows there wasn't even a persecution of Christians under Domitian anyway. The futurist view makes a mockery of the time indicators, audience relevance and the nature of events that the text is communicating. Have you read Before Jerusalem Fell by Ken Gentry? If you haven't, to dissolve potential ignorance on the matter, you need to. This is a bit nitpicky, but the screen caption of your video equates the beast with a supposed THE antichrist. Antichrist isn't even mentioned in Revelation and it was written by the same author that does mention antichrist, which was a spirit or belief. Why would the same author do so if the beast was (will be, in your view) indeed THE Antichrist? It was the one who denied Jesus had come in the flesh. The preterist position doesn't believe in a THE antichrist. Conflating the beast (there are several beasts in Revelation) with a supposed THE antichrist is taking liberty with the text. The beast Nero represents is a man, but it's also Rome as a whole (the Sea Beast) because Rome was the Caesar and Caesar was Rome. There's also a land beast which was Jerusalem. Nero was described by multiple Roman historians as being a beast of a man. Nero was perhaps the mostly beastly man that ever lived based on the things he did. They're too scandalous and gross to mention here. Are you aware of them? The man instituted the first non-Jewish persecution of the Church. You have your yod out of place. That being said, the abbreviated Latin of Caesar Nero to Hebrew didn't require the yod. You may be using later versions of the Talmud and such that include a yod rather than the older manuscripts. I've read how the yod was not included in Talmudic writings (folio 56a which specifically mentions Nero). Irenaeus is not reliable. He's no 'Church Father'. He was said to have seen and heard Polycarp who then had pretty unsubstantiated connection to the apostle John. Lots of hearsay and legends/myths are associated with these supposed church fathers. He's more distant from 1st Century Christianity. The only one that seems to be a pretty genuine acquaintance of the some of the apostles is Clement. Furthermore, something like 90% of early church writings have yet to be translated into English from Greek and Latin. Some folks are in the middle of translation projects, such as Francis Gumerlock. Wait for the preterism to flow. That's in addition to numerous very preteristic statements by writers starting in the 2nd century and on such as Isaiah 2 being fulfilled. In the Odes of Solomon, very closely written after 70AD, in Ode 15 it states that corruption had already put on incorruption (1 Cor 15!). And to hedge any criticisms, the Odes aren't gnostic. The hermeneutic of the NT is spiritual, not physical. We walk by faith and not by sight. The greatest evidence of a spiritually mature person is that they are visibly (physically) obedient, loving, joyful and godly.
We agree on Nero, and much else, as I note above. But even I would rebut you kindly on a few essential points. First, Irenaeus is very reliable. He makes some interpretive and historical mistakes. But his teachings are amazing on the whole and his aid in understanding the canon and the priority of the Apostolic teaching above all else is very important to us. Second, I'm troubled by your assertion that the "hermeneutic of the NT is spiritual not physical." That is simply not the case in the way you mean it. Christ's resurrection was physical, ours shall be as well (Lk. 24:39). Which is probably why you disparage Irenaeus. You have to up end 1 Cor. 15:24, 42, 51-58. Which is about the second resurrection at the end of the millennium. And if you think that death has been utterly defeated, root and fruit, in the present (by completely redefining biblical anthropology and the effect of sin on man), then we end up with an Adamic curse which is never defeated. It simply languishes here on earth, world without end, while the "spiritually saved" simply escape. What you proposes, is not biblical. It is a Gnostic denial of God's good physical creation and the Victory of the Son of God. I would highly recommend K. Gentry's Revelation commentary on Rev 20 and the Amillennial idealist/hyper-preterist car wreck that results from making it a recapitulation of Chapter 19. A true NT hermeneutic is a physical AND spiritual historical-redemptive hermeneutic of the whole man in Christ Jesus.
Not only preterist's think it's Nero. I heard someone suggest it was a second coming of Nero or the spirit of Nero, similar to Elijah and John the Baptist.
That is very interesting! I do think that any non preterist interpretation that views it as Nero would have to be a minority because there is no reason to associate it with Nero to begin with (since the book of Revelation was written well after Nero).
@@thebiblesojourner Keener and Ehrman also think it's Nero. Buist Fanning of DTS says it's the most likely intepretation and says it's widely accepted by scholars. Also, it seems to fit in context because of the Nero redidivus idea that seems to be behind chapter 13.
I'm not a preterist, but I think it's the most likely explanation. John sees the Beast as a Nero-like figure. Nero but worse. As Fanning says, this fits his use of John the Baptist and Elijah
Hi again Perter and as always very informative. I really would like to get your Email address as I have a few topic's I would like to "sharpen iron with you. The first one would be the topic on "Divine" space once established on earth, it's loss, accompanied with how the crucifixion of "Christ" made atonement for "world sin" also." WOW !! - What a discussion...
You can use the contact form on my website. That goes straight to my email. I'm pretty backlogged right now, but would love a chance to interact with you.
What a great topic for discussion and weather or not Divine Space is on Earth or better yet IN EARTH as in your Earthen Body Vessel by was of the Divine Anointing of Christ Consciousness. Please read my Comment above about Spiritual Wisdom and Understanding and the Mystery of 666 and the Good News of Christ being the 8 stage that brings eternal life into the Human Being. I would love to share Truth about any subject because that is the way we as Humans Grow Day by Day as we receive counsel first of all from the Divine Counseling through Christ Consciousness and then by edifying each other. Grace Faith to you AMEN
Social media algorithms love giving us things we hate! It stirs controversy and reaction. I don’t think I know how to block someone (though I’m flattered you asked!). I do think you can select “not interested” for a channel when it shows up on your feed. Maybe try that?
Isn't it kind of interesting that the 666 and the 616 fit Nero but both numbers don't fit the other early roman leaders. The letters were written to "those" Christians and for "them" to have understanding.
It is only interesting if one does not use an objective standard of comparison. The arguments linking 666 with Nero are similar to how Bible code enthusiasts find a way to find secret codes in the Bible. The standard is to find some way to make it work and then it proves the case. Remember, using that game plan, these numbers can refer to Domitian and Titus as well. Plus, why would John, who is writing 30 years after Nero, refer to him?
For me the Key to understanding the number 666 is it is symbolic and has to do with the scientific make up of the Human Body and the Atom from which the Human Body is Made. The 4 foundations of every Human Being is contained in theses 4 Atom's which are the Hydrogen atom of 1 proton and 1 neutron and 1 electron the first and most important Atom that continues to divide to make up the complete 8 stages of the Human being. Question where does the 666 Atom come into play which is the Carbon Atom of which all Physical Matter contains? Answer = on the 6 stage of the Biology of the Human Body and for completion to take place as to the perfect complete Human being to be a reality you must also have Nitrogen = 777 and Oxygen = 888 and that is why the number 8 is so important in Bible number Symbolism. Knowing this and reading what Paul wrote in 1st Thessalonians 5:23 things for me become clear what the number 666 stands for. The Anti Christ Man is only focused on the Carbon Outer World and has no interest in Spiritual Things. When you know your Human Biology and the Atom that makes up you'r whole Body, Soul = mental mind and Spirit you find both the Bible and Science are in perfect balance. As all the Ancient Sages have taught in order to know your Creator you must fist and for most KNOW YOURSELF and how fearfully and wonderfully are made. AMEN P.S. Spell Anatomy and break the word down As AN - ATOM - ME and thing about the possibility the Adam and Eve Story is about the Splitting of the ATOM in order to make molecules that split to make Cells that split that become tissue that makes organs that become the Human Organism body in 6 stages and the only two things remaining for completeness is the breath of Divine Consciousness for the Soul Mind to be able to reason and on the 8 stage the Spiritual Breath or Spirit of Divine life called Christ Consciousness. From 666 Carbon Man to 777 a Soul mind able to Reason and last 888 the Holy Spirit Anointing of Divine Consciousness the process of growing into a perfect MAN of God. 1st Cor. 13: 8-13 Think you for allowing me to comment.
Fascinating! My biggest hold up on your theory is whether the original audience would have thought along those lines. That seems to be something that only modern man would think about.
@@thebiblesojourner When we assume modern man is the most advanced in science in history and especially in Anatomy, Biology and the Physiology of the Human being we assume wrong. Historical accounts indicate that the exploration of Human anatomy traces back to as early as 1600 B.C. in Greece when sacrificial bodies were examined. We now know a Man Named Imhotep of Kemet Egypt who lived around 2650 B.C. is the first known poly math genius especially in the field of Anatomy and Physiology of the Human Body who had great understanding of the structure and functions of the human body. Could it be we are only now awaking to the lost knowledge of who and what we as human are created to be: a knowledge lost because of pride and the desire to be emancipated from our Creator. For me knowing the Histology, Anatomy, Physiology and Hematology of My body has made clear what the bible is and it's over all message as never before. I only have a 8th grade education and have been studying the bible for over 57 years and with the aid of the computer have been studying how I am fearfully and Wonderfully Made for about 15 years. As the Apostle Paul said Prove all things and realize the Spiritual Kingdom of God Is Within You in the Christ anointing state of divine consciousness. Peace, Hope and Spiritual Wisdom and Understanding be unto you AMEN
HA! Well, I can tell you are not impressed by Nero! He is a terrible person to try and be impressed by! My feeling was that you are approaching this question looking for reasons to shoot it down. Not always a bad thing, but, in fairness, I don't know if I can agree that your standards of comparison are "objective enough." You make it seem like there are any number of ways to make a name fit 666, but that is not the case. It's only possible to have a lock that any key fits, if one has no restrictive criteria. It's the restrictive criteria which make the number impressive, if it fits. For example, Ronald Regan's name has three 6 letter names, including his middle name and therefore he fits 666. But this is the sort of criteria that is common among futurist. The preterist (I always mean orthodox preterism as hyper-preterists are really idealist and they don't hold consistently to the importance of time texts, especially as regards the millennium). In any case, your presentation would be the stronger rather than the weaker argument, as Socrates might call it, if you listed the restrictive criteria for the preterist selection of Nero. The criteria are that we need someone in the first century that the reader would have been able to know. It also needs to be one of the 7 kings who are heads on the beast. It also has to be someone who persecutes the church for 42 months (Nero did this, and he began his persecutions soon after June of 64 with the burning of Rome, and May of 68 is 42 months. Nero died in June of 68). Nero was also described in his moral behavior as a "beast" by his literary contemporaries. Just based upon all these criteria, it's very hard not to settle on Nero. The odds are incredible. And this is without the 666 correlation in terms of a code. Just based upon the fact that Jesus' name in Greek adds up to 888 (8 being the first after 7's completion and so new beginnings), and the common practice of the time to use name codes sets up the game. So your attitude toward this proposal, is it objective or are you minimizing it unnecessarily? Just a thought. So, apart from the Code for Nero, but just based upon Jesus's name and the symbolism of numbers we can see what John may have been inspired to use 666 as a contrast with Christ (6 being less than 7 and also the day that Adam was made, multiplied so as to resemble a flawed version of Jesus's name). Then we throw on the fact that "Nero Caesar" is spelled this way on Roman Coins dated to AD65. And that we do have an early attestation, in Israel during Nero's reign as to how this was spelled in Hebrew (not later as in the Talmud). I looked up Gentry's argument (in Before Jerusalem Fell) and he represents the evidence for this spelling more strongly than you. You made it sound unverifiable. He quotes authorities stating "The last two consonants of the QSR (Caesar) are damaged, but enough is persevered to show that no vowel-letter was written between the q and s." And the Hebrew clearly spells Nero with nrwn. I have not looked up the visuals of this source yet (the book is $600), but I hope to. The objection that the Nero's name includes a "title" to work is not very strong objection because "Nero Caesar" is not a long or convoluted title, but a common reference to his person. It is plausible that John did not use the real number of Nero's name in Greek because that would have been to obvious, and that number does not have the prophetic artistry of being a lesser symbol in relation to Jesus' number of 888. So, the fact that "Nero Caesar" actually fits this requirement, given the other factors that he fits, is remarkable. But it also explains why John would have picked 666. And this difficulty of transliteration is why it requires "wisdom," as John said. Additionally, it was not written to the wider Greek community, but to Christian communities with strong ties to Jewish ways of thinking, culture, and language. Of course it would have been the scholars in the community. That's why it took wisdom. To say no one would have gotten this is unlikely, but because it is difficult, it also explains why it was forgotten by later Gentile converts. But all of this is an "abductive" or cumulative historical argument. As far as it goes, it appears to be a persuasive one given the limiting criteria of the hypothesis of an early dating of Revelation. The limiting criteria do work like a key, as in any fulfilled prophesy. The Nero postulate for the name who's number is 666 is accepted by many older scholars. Gentry lists about 22 in the late 1890s. And 15 more recently, including: G. Driver, J.P.M. Sweet, Bruce M. Metzger (who was premill), and John A. T. Robinson. I'm not sure if I have successfully "steel maned" the argument for you. But it's something to consider. Your dismissal seems, as the Ents are wont to say...hasty.
Sorry I’ve been swamped and its taken me awhile to sift through some of the comments. I always appreciate your thoughts. The restrictive criteria you propose would only be acceptable if one already assumes preterism. You listed (1) 1st Century person; (2) needs to be one of the 7 kings who are the heads of the beast (but I’m assuming you also mean it has to be one of the 7 kings identified within preterism?); (3) It also has to be someone who persecutes the church for 42 months. These criteria are not exactly neutral and would need to be proven (in my eyes at least). Even amillennialists wouldn’t agree with those criteria necessarily, so it is not just a premillennial stumbling block. The original video was long already, so I didn’t want to go off into rabit trail land. But it is my understanding that some preterists actually interpret 666 at least three different ways: (1) Nero, (2)The leader of the Zealot factions, John Levi (3) or to spiritualize this person to be the carnal nature of humanity as a whole. It seems odd that even partial preterists can’t have universal agreement on the issue if it is so clear. And remember, not just futurists are unconvinced, but also the idealist amills (though we both hold them at arms length don’t we?-I mean they are only a helpful ally whenever they agree with me!). I’d have to see the evidence you suggest exists contained on the Roman Coins. All the peer reviewed research I’ve looked into said it was questionable. Having done a fair bit of Dead Sea Scrolls research, I’m fairly hesitant when people make arguments concerning damaged texts. Now that the photos are available for many of those scrolls it is easy to see how we were fools for assuming some of the reconstructions proposed. Hopefully that will get better with AI actually. In any case, I do realize that the largest presuppositional block to seeing Nero is that I’m not considering much of the evidence that you are convinced of as valid evidence. Since I’m a hardy proponent of a 95 AD date of the book, it makes little sense for me to see Nero as fulfilling that. But if I was already convinced of a early date of Revelation, I could see that being much more compelling (though, I would still hope there would be some sort of objective bone in my body to fight against popular consensus). Appreciate the interaction, friend.
Ok ,so the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is Jesus. not (the titles) Father, Son, Holy Spirit. 6:59 Be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit???
The papacy is the man of sin/son of perdition prophesied by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2. He is that man of sin which sits in the temple of God (Paul defines the temple of God as the church, as does Peter) who proclaims himself to be God. The popes have proclaimed themselves the Vicar of Christ and the head of the church. We know that Jesus Christ is the head of the church. Therefore, the pope makes himself to be God on earth by taking the place of Jesus Christ. This is the proper interpretation. Nero cannot be antichrist because he never sat in the temple of God, the church. Irenaeus believed 666 referred to the Greek word Lateinos, meaning "Latin Man". Revelation was written in Greek, so it makes sense 666 must be calculated using that language. Irenaeus believed the antichrist would come from the Latin kingdom, Rome, because the little horn arises out of the fourth beast in Daniel 7, which is Rome. Interestingly enough, 666 is also the sum of the letters from the Latin title "Vicarius Filii Dei" which translates to Vicar of Christ in English. This was all common knowledge during the time of the Reformation but modern Christians have been duped by the antichrist as he has cleverly concealed his true identity. Look up a copy of "Romanism and the Reformation" by Henry Grattan Guinness. You can find free PDF copies online. In this work he proves, using scripture, the correct interpretation of the prophecies of Daniel, Paul, and John as they relate to the antichrist. God bless.
Yes I am being married to Jesus Christ the spirit of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ is being married to my body for the second coming of Jesus Christ the wedding feast of the lamb the rapture the 7 year tribulation it started September 17TH 2021.
NERO IS THE SPIRIT RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD IN CHRIST JESUS BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS HEROD I THOUGHT MY STEP MOM WAS HERODIAS BECAUSE SHE TOLD ME SHE WISHED MY MOM DEAD AND THEN SHE WISHED ME DEAD AND SHE IS THE SECRETARY AT MY MINISTERS SCHOOL HE IS A SUPERINTENDENT FOR AND HAS THE SPIRIT OF JOHN THE BAPTIST AND HE IS OUR NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOR AND WE KNOW ABOUT HERODIAS AND JOHN THE BAPTIST IN THE BIBLE LOL
THE MARK OF THE BEAST IS THEIR OWN MIND WILL AND EMOTIONS THEY ARE NOT CONTROLLED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT THEY ARE ONLY 2/3 OF A PERSON 666.7. WE ARE MADE IN THREE PARTS LIKE THE TRINITY SOUL SPIRIT AND BODY THEY JUST HAVE SOUL AND BODY NO HOLY SPIRIT 666.7+33.33= GOD THE FATHER GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Peter, I missed the last one! I'll have to take a look. You always keep me on my toes :).
Bring on Don Preston..His contact is on his youtube site and websites. This would help correct possible error or oversight on either side. How do we explain Col 1:23 and Mark 13:10?
I mentioned the same thing on other videos and got crickets back. Interesting isn't it.
In a day and time where they could so easily bring Don on there is no effort too.
Irenaeus mentions about the 616 variant in Against Heresies Book V, Chapter 30.1:
"Such, then, being the state of the case, and this number being found in all the most approved and ancient copies [of the Apocalypse], and those men who saw John face to face bearing their testimony [to it]; while reason also leads us to conclude that the number of the name of the beast, [if reckoned] according to the Greek mode of calculation by the [value of] the letters contained in it, will amount to six hundred and sixty and six; that is, the number of tens shall be equal to that of the hundreds, and the number of hundreds equal to that of the units (for that number which [expresses] the digit six being adhered to throughout, indicates the recapitulations of that apostasy, taken in its full extent, which occurred at the beginning, during the intermediate periods, and which shall take place at the end) - I do not know how it is that some have erred following the ordinary mode of speech, and have vitiated the middle number in the name, deducting the amount of fifty from it, so that instead of six decads they will have it that there is but one. [I am inclined to think that this occurred through the fault of the copyists, as is wont to happen, since numbers also are expressed by letters; so that the Greek letter which expresses the number sixty was easily expanded into the letter Iota of the Greeks.] Others then received this reading without examination; some in their simplicity, and upon their own responsibility, making use of this number expressing one decad; while some, in their inexperience, have ventured to seek out a name which should contain the erroneous and spurious number. Now, as regards those who have done this in simplicity, and without evil intent, we are at liberty to assume that pardon will be granted them by God. But as for those who, for the sake of vainglory, lay it down for certain that names containing the spurious number are to be accepted, and affirm that this name, hit upon by themselves, is that of him who is to come; such persons shall not come forth without loss, because they have led into error both themselves and those who confided in them. Now, in the first place, it is loss to wander from the truth, and to imagine that as being the case which is not; then again, as there shall be no light punishment [inflicted] upon him who either adds or subtracts anything from the Scripture, Revelation 22:19 under that such a person must necessarily fall. Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against."
Thank you for locating the source for us. Much appreciated!
In the manuscripts where Greek letters are used to symbolize numbers, 'χ̅ξ̅ϛ̅' is 666. In manuscript P115, it's 'χ̅ι ̅ϛ̅' for 616. Notice the difference? Irenaeus is asking his reader to believ that an ξ̅' became an 'ι'...pretty silly. That can't be a scribal error. Irenaeus is offering his opinion here, whatever his motivations, and it's not authoritative. It's not even believable.
There are actually 2 variants that have 616: P115 and C 04. If the final 'nun' of Nero is removed from the Hebrew 'נרון', the total is 616 since nun was worth 50. It makes sense since Nero wouldn't be pronounced/spelled as 'Neron' in Latin or Greek. My view is that 616 was presented based on the audience. Calculation from an understanding man, as Revelation 13:8 demands, was required.
@thebiblesojourner
@@JR-rs5qs It is possible that 616 was an intentional change. But then we would have to have a compelling explanation for why it exists that way. The appeal to Latin doesn't seem very convincing to me... but maybe I just haven't heard a great case for it. Furthermore, the printed letters of ξ and ι may be noticeable in computer screens, but hand written manuscripts are often different. I often confuse all sorts of letters that should "not" be confused when I'm reading Greek manuscripts. It happens.
@@thebiblesojourner that's because you're not a native Greek speaker/writer. How could it be plausible that Latin would be appealed to? Because the entire 'world' at that time was ruled by Romans who spoke....Latin.
Wondering what book on dispensational theology you would recommend?
Michael Vlach is the go to. His book, He will Reign Forever, is very helpful. He also wrote a small booklet on dispensational hermeneutics. I also would recommend everything by Paul Henebury.
Thanks, I noticed some other books by Vlach as well that look interesting as well.
Very simple and well put. The example of president will stand out in my memory. Good job.👍🏼
Glad it was helpful for you! Thanks for taking the time to say the President example was useful.
I appreciate you doing a video on this. But I have a rebuttal:
John very specifically says "Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast", yet you go on the rest of the video basically trashing the attempt that numerous people throughout the years have attempted (your camp isn't excluded from trying to calculate the number of the beast and the attempts are quite fantastical sometimes) to do this very thing. It takes understanding to calculate, so why is it so far fetched for these translations that work out Nero to be six hundred and six (note: it's not 6-6-6)? You're basically criticizing what the text says is necessary. Especially since Revelation was about about things that were shortly to come to pass, a 1st century identity is proper. Revelation was absolutely not written in AD 95. I now laugh at this (I used to believe this so I don't mean to be rude) because it makes the book completely nonsensical since nothing shortly came to pass in the reign of the Domitian or thereafter. The evidence shows there wasn't even a persecution of Christians under Domitian anyway. The futurist view makes a mockery of the time indicators, audience relevance and the nature of events that the text is communicating. Have you read Before Jerusalem Fell by Ken Gentry? If you haven't, to dissolve potential ignorance on the matter, you need to.
This is a bit nitpicky, but the screen caption of your video equates the beast with a supposed THE antichrist. Antichrist isn't even mentioned in Revelation and it was written by the same author that does mention antichrist, which was a spirit or belief. Why would the same author do so if the beast was (will be, in your view) indeed THE Antichrist? It was the one who denied Jesus had come in the flesh. The preterist position doesn't believe in a THE antichrist. Conflating the beast (there are several beasts in Revelation) with a supposed THE antichrist is taking liberty with the text. The beast Nero represents is a man, but it's also Rome as a whole (the Sea Beast) because Rome was the Caesar and Caesar was Rome. There's also a land beast which was Jerusalem.
Nero was described by multiple Roman historians as being a beast of a man. Nero was perhaps the mostly beastly man that ever lived based on the things he did. They're too scandalous and gross to mention here. Are you aware of them? The man instituted the first non-Jewish persecution of the Church.
You have your yod out of place. That being said, the abbreviated Latin of Caesar Nero to Hebrew didn't require the yod. You may be using later versions of the Talmud and such that include a yod rather than the older manuscripts. I've read how the yod was not included in Talmudic writings (folio 56a which specifically mentions Nero).
Irenaeus is not reliable. He's no 'Church Father'. He was said to have seen and heard Polycarp who then had pretty unsubstantiated connection to the apostle John. Lots of hearsay and legends/myths are associated with these supposed church fathers. He's more distant from 1st Century Christianity. The only one that seems to be a pretty genuine acquaintance of the some of the apostles is Clement. Furthermore, something like 90% of early church writings have yet to be translated into English from Greek and Latin. Some folks are in the middle of translation projects, such as Francis Gumerlock. Wait for the preterism to flow. That's in addition to numerous very preteristic statements by writers starting in the 2nd century and on such as Isaiah 2 being fulfilled. In the Odes of Solomon, very closely written after 70AD, in Ode 15 it states that corruption had already put on incorruption (1 Cor 15!). And to hedge any criticisms, the Odes aren't gnostic. The hermeneutic of the NT is spiritual, not physical. We walk by faith and not by sight. The greatest evidence of a spiritually mature person is that they are visibly (physically) obedient, loving, joyful and godly.
We agree on Nero, and much else, as I note above.
But even I would rebut you kindly on a few essential points. First, Irenaeus is very reliable. He makes some interpretive and historical mistakes. But his teachings are amazing on the whole and his aid in understanding the canon and the priority of the Apostolic teaching above all else is very important to us.
Second, I'm troubled by your assertion that the "hermeneutic of the NT is spiritual not physical." That is simply not the case in the way you mean it. Christ's resurrection was physical, ours shall be as well (Lk. 24:39). Which is probably why you disparage Irenaeus. You have to up end 1 Cor. 15:24, 42, 51-58. Which is about the second resurrection at the end of the millennium. And if you think that death has been utterly defeated, root and fruit, in the present (by completely redefining biblical anthropology and the effect of sin on man), then we end up with an Adamic curse which is never defeated. It simply languishes here on earth, world without end, while the "spiritually saved" simply escape.
What you proposes, is not biblical. It is a Gnostic denial of God's good physical creation and the Victory of the Son of God.
I would highly recommend K. Gentry's Revelation commentary on Rev 20 and the Amillennial idealist/hyper-preterist car wreck that results from making it a recapitulation of Chapter 19.
A true NT hermeneutic is a physical AND spiritual historical-redemptive hermeneutic of the whole man in Christ Jesus.
Not only preterist's think it's Nero. I heard someone suggest it was a second coming of Nero or the spirit of Nero, similar to Elijah and John the Baptist.
That is very interesting! I do think that any non preterist interpretation that views it as Nero would have to be a minority because there is no reason to associate it with Nero to begin with (since the book of Revelation was written well after Nero).
@@thebiblesojourner Keener and Ehrman also think it's Nero. Buist Fanning of DTS says it's the most likely intepretation and says it's widely accepted by scholars. Also, it seems to fit in context because of the Nero redidivus idea that seems to be behind chapter 13.
I'm not a preterist, but I think it's the most likely explanation. John sees the Beast as a Nero-like figure. Nero but worse. As Fanning says, this fits his use of John the Baptist and Elijah
Hi again Perter and as always very informative. I really would like to get your Email address as I have a few topic's I would like to "sharpen iron with you. The first one would be the topic on "Divine" space once established on earth, it's loss, accompanied with how the crucifixion of "Christ" made atonement for "world sin" also." WOW !! - What a discussion...
You can use the contact form on my website. That goes straight to my email. I'm pretty backlogged right now, but would love a chance to interact with you.
@@thebiblesojourner Ok great. Will wait a bit as need to put some material together. Thx for your willingness and reply.
What a great topic for discussion and weather or not Divine Space is on Earth or better yet IN EARTH as in your Earthen Body Vessel by was of the Divine Anointing of Christ Consciousness. Please read my Comment above about Spiritual Wisdom and Understanding and the Mystery of 666 and the Good News of Christ being the 8 stage that brings eternal life into the Human Being. I would love to share Truth about any subject because that is the way we as Humans Grow Day by Day as we receive counsel first of all from the Divine Counseling through Christ Consciousness and then by edifying each other. Grace Faith to you AMEN
1 Kings 10:14
14 The weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents
True statement! 👍
Your feed for some reason keeps showing up in my playlist and I can’t block it. Can you please block or ban or whatever me?
The algorithm knows what you need
Social media algorithms love giving us things we hate! It stirs controversy and reaction. I don’t think I know how to block someone (though I’m flattered you asked!). I do think you can select “not interested” for a channel when it shows up on your feed. Maybe try that?
...maybe He wants you to deep dive into solid theology 😊
resistance is futile
@@josephpchajek2685😂😂😂
Isn't it kind of interesting that the 666 and the 616 fit Nero but both numbers don't fit the other early roman leaders.
The letters were written to "those" Christians and for "them" to have understanding.
It is only interesting if one does not use an objective standard of comparison. The arguments linking 666 with Nero are similar to how Bible code enthusiasts find a way to find secret codes in the Bible. The standard is to find some way to make it work and then it proves the case. Remember, using that game plan, these numbers can refer to Domitian and Titus as well. Plus, why would John, who is writing 30 years after Nero, refer to him?
For me the Key to understanding the number 666 is it is symbolic and has to do with the scientific make up of the Human Body and the Atom from which the Human Body is Made. The 4 foundations of every Human Being is contained in theses 4 Atom's which are the Hydrogen atom of 1 proton and 1 neutron and 1 electron the first and most important Atom that continues to divide to make up the complete 8 stages of the Human being. Question where does the 666 Atom come into play which is the Carbon Atom of which all Physical Matter contains? Answer = on the 6 stage of the Biology of the Human Body and for completion to take place as to the perfect complete Human being to be a reality you must also have Nitrogen = 777 and Oxygen = 888 and that is why the number 8 is so important in Bible number Symbolism. Knowing this and reading what Paul wrote in 1st Thessalonians 5:23 things for me become clear what the number 666 stands for. The Anti Christ Man is only focused on the Carbon Outer World and has no interest in Spiritual Things. When you know your Human Biology and the Atom that makes up you'r whole Body, Soul = mental mind and Spirit you find both the Bible and Science are in perfect balance. As all the Ancient Sages have taught in order to know your Creator you must fist and for most KNOW YOURSELF and how fearfully and wonderfully are made. AMEN P.S. Spell Anatomy and break the word down As AN - ATOM - ME and thing about the possibility the Adam and Eve Story is about the Splitting of the ATOM in order to make molecules that split to make Cells that split that become tissue that makes organs that become the Human Organism body in 6 stages and the only two things remaining for completeness is the breath of Divine Consciousness for the Soul Mind to be able to reason and on the 8 stage the Spiritual Breath or Spirit of Divine life called Christ Consciousness. From 666 Carbon Man to 777 a Soul mind able to Reason and last 888 the Holy Spirit Anointing of Divine Consciousness the process of growing into a perfect MAN of God. 1st Cor. 13: 8-13 Think you for allowing me to comment.
Fascinating! My biggest hold up on your theory is whether the original audience would have thought along those lines. That seems to be something that only modern man would think about.
@@thebiblesojourner When we assume modern man is the most advanced in science in history and especially in Anatomy, Biology and the Physiology of the Human being we assume wrong. Historical accounts indicate that the exploration of Human anatomy traces back to as early as 1600 B.C. in Greece when sacrificial bodies were examined. We now know a Man Named Imhotep of Kemet Egypt who lived around 2650 B.C. is the first known poly math genius especially in the field of Anatomy and Physiology of the Human Body who had great understanding of the structure and functions of the human body. Could it be we are only now awaking to the lost knowledge of who and what we as human are created to be: a knowledge lost because of pride and the desire to be emancipated from our Creator. For me knowing the Histology, Anatomy, Physiology and Hematology of My body has made clear what the bible is and it's over all message as never before. I only have a 8th grade education and have been studying the bible for over 57 years and with the aid of the computer have been studying how I am fearfully and Wonderfully Made for about 15 years. As the Apostle Paul said Prove all things and realize the Spiritual Kingdom of God Is Within You in the Christ anointing state of divine consciousness. Peace, Hope and Spiritual Wisdom and Understanding be unto you AMEN
I AM THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST
By the Light of Spirit "preterism" is a LIE.
It is certainly a tool of deception.
HA! Well, I can tell you are not impressed by Nero! He is a terrible person to try and be impressed by! My feeling was that you are approaching this question looking for reasons to shoot it down. Not always a bad thing, but, in fairness, I don't know if I can agree that your standards of comparison are "objective enough."
You make it seem like there are any number of ways to make a name fit 666, but that is not the case. It's only possible to have a lock that any key fits, if one has no restrictive criteria. It's the restrictive criteria which make the number impressive, if it fits. For example, Ronald Regan's name has three 6 letter names, including his middle name and therefore he fits 666. But this is the sort of criteria that is common among futurist. The preterist (I always mean orthodox preterism as hyper-preterists are really idealist and they don't hold consistently to the importance of time texts, especially as regards the millennium).
In any case, your presentation would be the stronger rather than the weaker argument, as Socrates might call it, if you listed the restrictive criteria for the preterist selection of Nero.
The criteria are that we need someone in the first century that the reader would have been able to know. It also needs to be one of the 7 kings who are heads on the beast. It also has to be someone who persecutes the church for 42 months (Nero did this, and he began his persecutions soon after June of 64 with the burning of Rome, and May of 68 is 42 months. Nero died in June of 68). Nero was also described in his moral behavior as a "beast" by his literary contemporaries.
Just based upon all these criteria, it's very hard not to settle on Nero. The odds are incredible. And this is without the 666 correlation in terms of a code. Just based upon the fact that Jesus' name in Greek adds up to 888 (8 being the first after 7's completion and so new beginnings), and the common practice of the time to use name codes sets up the game. So your attitude toward this proposal, is it objective or are you minimizing it unnecessarily? Just a thought.
So, apart from the Code for Nero, but just based upon Jesus's name and the symbolism of numbers we can see what John may have been inspired to use 666 as a contrast with Christ (6 being less than 7 and also the day that Adam was made, multiplied so as to resemble a flawed version of Jesus's name).
Then we throw on the fact that "Nero Caesar" is spelled this way on Roman Coins dated to AD65. And that we do have an early attestation, in Israel during Nero's reign as to how this was spelled in Hebrew (not later as in the Talmud). I looked up Gentry's argument (in Before Jerusalem Fell) and he represents the evidence for this spelling more strongly than you. You made it sound unverifiable. He quotes authorities stating "The last two consonants of the QSR (Caesar) are damaged, but enough is persevered to show that no vowel-letter was written between the q and s." And the Hebrew clearly spells Nero with nrwn.
I have not looked up the visuals of this source yet (the book is $600), but I hope to.
The objection that the Nero's name includes a "title" to work is not very strong objection because "Nero Caesar" is not a long or convoluted title, but a common reference to his person. It is plausible that John did not use the real number of Nero's name in Greek because that would have been to obvious, and that number does not have the prophetic artistry of being a lesser symbol in relation to Jesus' number of 888. So, the fact that "Nero Caesar" actually fits this requirement, given the other factors that he fits, is remarkable.
But it also explains why John would have picked 666. And this difficulty of transliteration is why it requires "wisdom," as John said. Additionally, it was not written to the wider Greek community, but to Christian communities with strong ties to Jewish ways of thinking, culture, and language. Of course it would have been the scholars in the community. That's why it took wisdom. To say no one would have gotten this is unlikely, but because it is difficult, it also explains why it was forgotten by later Gentile converts.
But all of this is an "abductive" or cumulative historical argument. As far as it goes, it appears to be a persuasive one given the limiting criteria of the hypothesis of an early dating of Revelation. The limiting criteria do work like a key, as in any fulfilled prophesy.
The Nero postulate for the name who's number is 666 is accepted by many older scholars. Gentry lists about 22 in the late 1890s. And 15 more recently, including: G. Driver, J.P.M. Sweet, Bruce M. Metzger (who was premill), and John A. T. Robinson.
I'm not sure if I have successfully "steel maned" the argument for you. But it's something to consider. Your dismissal seems, as the Ents are wont to say...hasty.
Sorry I’ve been swamped and its taken me awhile to sift through some of the comments. I always appreciate your thoughts.
The restrictive criteria you propose would only be acceptable if one already assumes preterism. You listed (1) 1st Century person; (2) needs to be one of the 7 kings who are the heads of the beast (but I’m assuming you also mean it has to be one of the 7 kings identified within preterism?); (3) It also has to be someone who persecutes the church for 42 months.
These criteria are not exactly neutral and would need to be proven (in my eyes at least). Even amillennialists wouldn’t agree with those criteria necessarily, so it is not just a premillennial stumbling block. The original video was long already, so I didn’t want to go off into rabit trail land. But it is my understanding that some preterists actually interpret 666 at least three different ways: (1) Nero, (2)The leader of the Zealot factions, John Levi (3) or to spiritualize this person to be the carnal nature of humanity as a whole.
It seems odd that even partial preterists can’t have universal agreement on the issue if it is so clear. And remember, not just futurists are unconvinced, but also the idealist amills (though we both hold them at arms length don’t we?-I mean they are only a helpful ally whenever they agree with me!).
I’d have to see the evidence you suggest exists contained on the Roman Coins. All the peer reviewed research I’ve looked into said it was questionable. Having done a fair bit of Dead Sea Scrolls research, I’m fairly hesitant when people make arguments concerning damaged texts. Now that the photos are available for many of those scrolls it is easy to see how we were fools for assuming some of the reconstructions proposed. Hopefully that will get better with AI actually.
In any case, I do realize that the largest presuppositional block to seeing Nero is that I’m not considering much of the evidence that you are convinced of as valid evidence. Since I’m a hardy proponent of a 95 AD date of the book, it makes little sense for me to see Nero as fulfilling that. But if I was already convinced of a early date of Revelation, I could see that being much more compelling (though, I would still hope there would be some sort of objective bone in my body to fight against popular consensus).
Appreciate the interaction, friend.
Ok ,so the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is Jesus. not (the titles) Father, Son, Holy Spirit. 6:59 Be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit???
I’m sorry it is my fault but I’m not sure exactly what you’re saying. Can you say it another way for me?
The papacy is the man of sin/son of perdition prophesied by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2. He is that man of sin which sits in the temple of God (Paul defines the temple of God as the church, as does Peter) who proclaims himself to be God. The popes have proclaimed themselves the Vicar of Christ and the head of the church. We know that Jesus Christ is the head of the church. Therefore, the pope makes himself to be God on earth by taking the place of Jesus Christ. This is the proper interpretation. Nero cannot be antichrist because he never sat in the temple of God, the church.
Irenaeus believed 666 referred to the Greek word Lateinos, meaning "Latin Man". Revelation was written in Greek, so it makes sense 666 must be calculated using that language. Irenaeus believed the antichrist would come from the Latin kingdom, Rome, because the little horn arises out of the fourth beast in Daniel 7, which is Rome.
Interestingly enough, 666 is also the sum of the letters from the Latin title "Vicarius Filii Dei" which translates to Vicar of Christ in English.
This was all common knowledge during the time of the Reformation but modern Christians have been duped by the antichrist as he has cleverly concealed his true identity. Look up a copy of "Romanism and the Reformation" by Henry Grattan Guinness. You can find free PDF copies online. In this work he proves, using scripture, the correct interpretation of the prophecies of Daniel, Paul, and John as they relate to the antichrist. God bless.
Yes I am being married to Jesus Christ the spirit of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ is being married to my body for the second coming of Jesus Christ the wedding feast of the lamb the rapture the 7 year tribulation it started September 17TH 2021.
NERO IS THE SPIRIT RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD IN CHRIST JESUS BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS HEROD I THOUGHT MY STEP MOM WAS HERODIAS BECAUSE SHE TOLD ME SHE WISHED MY MOM DEAD AND THEN SHE WISHED ME DEAD AND SHE IS THE SECRETARY AT MY MINISTERS SCHOOL HE IS A SUPERINTENDENT FOR AND HAS THE SPIRIT OF JOHN THE BAPTIST AND HE IS OUR NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOR AND WE KNOW ABOUT HERODIAS AND JOHN THE BAPTIST IN THE BIBLE LOL
THE MARK OF THE BEAST IS THEIR OWN MIND WILL AND EMOTIONS THEY ARE NOT CONTROLLED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT THEY ARE ONLY 2/3 OF A PERSON 666.7. WE ARE MADE IN THREE PARTS LIKE THE TRINITY SOUL SPIRIT AND BODY THEY JUST HAVE SOUL AND BODY NO HOLY SPIRIT 666.7+33.33= GOD THE FATHER GOD THE SON AND GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT.
🤦🤦🤦
🤷♂️