My Churches Disaffiliated From The UMC
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- Опубліковано 25 сер 2024
- The Oklahoma Annual Conference hosted a "Special Called Conference" at which the two churches I serve were allowed to disaffiliate. This has some implications for me and my ministry that I wanted to explain. Also, PlainSpoken is doing well. I wanted to say out loud some things about what loyalties I hold and what my intentions are as I speak to sensitive topics.
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I completely agree. My church voted to disaffiliate yesterday. Now we have to decide where to go next.
May the LORD bless and keep you and your congregations.
Like you, I served a two-point charge which both churches elected to leave the UMC last year. After serving this circuit in the Texas Annual Annual Conference for 7.5 years as a licensed local pastor I answered the call to serve another church outside the denomination full-time. Now licensed by the Evangelical Association, I have watched the fragmentation of the UMC from the outside looking in for the past four years. Being a life-long Wesleyan I continued to hope and pray for revival for the UMC even as it became increasingly more a polarized political institution after having long abandoned it missional movement roots.
Having stepped out of the fray these last four years to see what has become of the UMC I realize that it is Wesleyan in name only. Although it retains "Methodist" in the name, there is very little Wesleyan about its function. Yes, I still pray and hope for the denomination I was a part of from my birth but am glad to be free of the political quagmire it has become, seemingly more focused on human agenda over the Devine.
I think that your sojourn into the GMC will give you some "breathing room" to see the UMC for what it has really become. Will the current liberal agenda of denomination ever wane? Only God knows. In the meantime, the authentic church has disciples to foster who are not misled by false politically-correct theology espoused by our prevailing culture. I'm sorry for the loss that you feel, believe me, I can identify. However, given time away from what the denomination has become, I believe that you will be less inclined to mourn your disaffiliation and instead find reason to rejoice in the decision you've made. Godspeed.
Thanks, Eric. I'll be surprised if my assessment of the UMC gets any more negative as I step away. I'm not sure that is possible. The sadness I feel about the UMC is like the sadness I feel about the Roman Catholic Church. Both crews started off with so many things going for them. Both were predisposed in the direction of Christ. Yet, over time, the world was able to turn it against itself and pervert tools that were made for the glory of God into instruments of corruption and iniquity. I mourn them even as I rejoice in being less connected to them.
Thank you for what you are doing! Keep up the good work! Please continue to pray for and report on all the Conferences and UMC and GMC updates.
Brother, I hear you, and I have been patient, but my patience is wearing thin. It's hard to have conversations with someone with an agenda. We have planted a new church. Support was overwhelming, and we are blessed to have people willing to help. It's still in the early stages. Keep up the good work! Peace!
I read an article a couple years ago, reminding the Methodist audience that some arguments/fights persisted in the early church for over a century. Hebrews 12:4 puts me to shame. And I have to acknowledge that, as I approach others, I, too, have an agenda. I'd like to think I have aligned my agenda with Christ. However, that needs to be scrutinized, not just by friendly allies, but also adversaries. My hope is that, as I speak with adversaries openly and vulnerably, some of them will be able to agree that we just have different priorities, and that we cannot work together and really shouldn't try, at least not for the time being. I want to help end this era of liberals using the same words but meaning the opposite of what these words have traditionally meant. That will only happen after a critical mass of liberals acknowledge that they are part of a different project and start to use their own terminology. Anyway, we'll see if I can't be effective in any sense. I appreciate your ministry and your witness. May God bless your church's efforts and give you discernment about what role to play in his reconciling work in the world.
Intelligent, articulate and plain spoken. Thank you for providing insightful and balanced information!
I for one appreciate your approach and your candor. I’m also one who prays for reconciliation between the UMC and those that have disaffiliated. I really hope you continue!
Not a Methodist. But I appreciate your stance and commitment. Will be praying for you and others in your situation.
I think that what I would call lawlessness is rampant in our society and churches. I’m afraid that some folks have forgotten how to discuss differences without the emotion. May God grant all of us a revival, in the spirit of II Chronicles 7:14
There should be no difference of opinion if the Holy Scriptures are believed and followed. If the split is based on the concept of LGTBQ being allowed to have unbiblical relations and ordainment of those supporting or actively participating in a sinful state, then the grouping that disallows the sinful activity is the one who is biblically right. Should sinners be allowed in the church? Yes. But only as a means for them to be set upon by the Holy Spirit and convicted of their sin and need for the repentance of the blood and resurrection of Christ. Not for acceptance.
Great series I have carefully listened.
The future is indeed a “scary place” without Jesus, and I don’t want to be found bereft!
I'm glad for you and your church members, if the time ever comes I would hope my church would make the same decision, thank you for taking your time to make these videos
"True Christians"
REBUKE SIN and EXPOSE IT
"False Christians"
PRACTICE SIN and DEFEND IT
Be thou not silent, oh my brother! Truly, thou art keeping alive the flame that did strangely warm the heart of John Wesley. Blaze thou onward!
Belong to small church in N. Ga. conf. Prior to pause we had voted 100% to leave UMC. Told to wait until Jan to submit . Only person not on board was our part time preacher.When asked he what he would do his answer was that conf. would just place him elsewhere. Makes you feel this is no more than a second job for him + he has no interest or feeling for the church he is leading. Have great respect for you to care about your church + the people in it.Continue your videos as they have value.Keep you in prayers.
Yeah a lot of local churches don't realize that the clergy the conference have provided are often just agents of the annual conference. Their membership is not in the local church, but in the annual conference. When a pastor chooses to advocate for their congregation, especially when it goes against the wishes/agenda of the conference leadership, they are put in the position of being traitors. Many pastors who have led their churches through the disaffiliation process are treated openly as traitors.
More than half of the clergy in the UMC have been effectively inculcated in a theology that is permissive of institutional abuse. It's just par for the course, for them. Their consciences are seared and they are relatively unbothered by institutional UMC behaviors. They cannot summon the righteous indignation required to oversee a congregation through the labyrinthine process of disaffiliation. A local church needs to be prepared to do this on their own, rather than relying on pastoral leadership.
Jeff, you are a critical voice in this unfortunate process and a place to go for balanced approach information. Our Church has voted to disaffiliate, and now we are waiting for our local Conference on May 18th to cast its vote to finally let us leave.
Thank you being that important voice we have needed to hear and I look forward to your continued efforts to shine a light on this process.
Brad, I'm glad to hear your thoughts. I hope you continue to benefit from the information that I share. God bless your church as you navigate what often feels like a minefield.
@PlainSpoken thank you. I have shared your UA-cam video site with numerous folks in our congregation.
Praying also for you and your congregations as all move forward.
God bless you in your continued walk and ministry
The church i attend is waiting on their conference here in Indiana. What you must look at is scripture on the reason for the split. I don't understand all the issues, but I do know that the grouping that allows sin to be allowed within the confines of the church, it is no longer a church.
I would love to hear why you are going GMC. I am in the same position as you get my two churches have not yet decided to go GMC.
Parker, the reason I'm personally inclined towards the GMC is, well, twofold: 1) They have the momentum right now, so I think they have the best chance at reclaiming some countercultural things about authentic Wesleyanism, and 2) They won't have a trust clause, so they cannot threaten to do the harm of other Wesleyan denominations. Essentially, there is a lot of potential gain, but little to lose. Seems smart, for the time being.
I appreciate your reluctance to be overly critical and remaining sensitive to the feelings of people who don’t share our worldview. That being said, spend some time reviewing a historical biography of Martin Luther. He was anything but timid and soft spoken. Had advisories been able to lay hands on him they would literally set him on fire but as it turned out he sparked the fire of salvation by grace that has been passed down through generations to the present. Scriptural adherence and Spiritual boldness is essential in our present broken world which only God can repair.
Bless you. You’re in my prayers. Stay true to the faith.
AS FOE ME,I DO NOT SEE ANY WAY OUT BUT TO DISAFFILIATE, IVE SEEN WHAT SOME OF THESE SO CALLED UMC PASTORS, PREACHING THINGS THAT ARE NOT BIBICAL,,I DRAW THE LINE IN THE SAND ON THAT
Welcome to Global , it's a blessing❤
BTW, you are absolutely a prophet in the Old Testament sense of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. You have the best voice that I have heard in the public square. Now is the time for a Godly man of good temperament to raise his voice, and I suspect that the Lord has big plans for you.
Your words are very kind, Duncan. My life is a lot easier than those guys'. I'm pretty spoiled.
I hope you had a chance to talk to Anglican Unscripted. They’re good guys. They’ve gone through all this.
Perhaps the reason why many people are on the fence or thinking that there is a chance for reconciliation is that they are relying on their own opinions to make their decisions instead of God's commands. The main thing is that they are thinking in terms of liberals versus conservatives instead of God versus Satan.
Consider 2 Corinthians 6:14-17
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial[b]? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
“I will live with them
and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they will be my people.”
17 Therefore,
“Come out from them
and be separate,
says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing,
and I will receive you.”
I wouldn't argue against any of that. I think I would just want to make the case for Christian apologetics. That is, making the case for Christ to unbelievers. I think we need folks to stand in the middle at this point. When it comes to who gets to share in the blessed communion of the saints, I'm quite exclusive. When it comes to how it is that we engage in public discourse, I draw the circle quite a bit wider. I think there are only very few who cannot and will not be persuaded. I'd like to try my hand at persuading some and equipping others.
Thank you for admitting there are "idiots" on both sides. Although our recent email exchanges became a bit testy, we concluded with blessings for each other. I don't consider you as one of the "idiots," and I hope the feeling is mutual. Blessings as you join the GMC, and blessings for those who choose to remain UMC.
Great news! I left the UMC in August. Once I blocked a handful of people, it was pretty sweet. Pretty much everyone I know that has left, whether or not they continue to help disaffiliating churches, continue to get attacked from time to time by United Methodists. About a month ago, I was labeled misinformation by a UM bishop which led to a meeting with my boss on the subject. Enjoy the reprieve. Don't be surprised by the attacks.
That's sort of crazy to me. Would like to know the particulars of the 'misinfo' accusation and the ensuing conversations. Maybe we can chat about it in our upcoming conversation!
You definitely ARE one of those guys that are telling it like it is. Thank you for your commentary and insights. God’s in control of it all! The Great Awakening is picking up speed; slowly, but it’s happening! Stay sharp! We are many!!!
😢 praying for you sir😢
Thank you.
God bless
Well said! I am a member of a rural church that is part of a two church charge as you are. Both of our churches voted to disaffiliate, and our disaffiliations were approved by the Tennessee/Western Kentucky Annual Conference. Our church will be part of the Global Methodist Chruch, but our sister churched decided to be an Independent Methodist church for now. I believe that one big problem that the UMC has aside from embracing lifestyles that are not Biblical is it's way too bureaucratic and way too top down in structure. The UMC treats there local congregations as if they're franchises of the denomination like Burger Kings. They claim to give the local churches a vote in the annual and general conferences. but they have turned a deaf ear to what is said for years. The Bishops and District Superintendents are totally out of touch with the people sitting in the pews, and there is no mechanism in the UMC to change this or reform the denomination. The annual conferences seem too much like infomercials than actual conferences. Although the Global Methodist Church is still very much a work in progress, I do like it's bottom-up structure better than the UMC's op down structure and I am hopeful that the GMC ill avoids the pitfalls the UMC developed.
This division issue is hurting us here in the Philippines. We are basically traditionalists culturally. We are not divided between traditionalists and liberals. But we are not joining the GMC to avoid divisions. We want to preserve our Biblical and theological interpretations based on our context and at the same time, to preserve our unity. However, the GMC is sowing misinformation, accusations, and different schemes to destroy the UMC Philippines just to win and encourage UMC members to transfer to their new denomination? GMC in the Philippines is not interested in doing missions to the unchurched, they want recycled Methodists as their members. They are much interested on UMC properties too in the Philippines. They are doing too much harm to us.
I responded to your comment on the other video. You can email evidence of GMC harm to plainspokenpod@gmail.com. I'll make sure to treat seriously anything you send me.
The GMC is accusing the UMC Philippines, and the whole General UMC, that UMC has turned its back from the Orthodox understanding of Trinity. A clear misinformation, by the GMC. @@plainspokenpod
I would be surprised if any GMC leadership said that the UMC as a whole has turned its back on the doctrine of the Trinity. Rather, I can easily imagine Bishop Jones, President Pro Tempore Oconer, or any number of other leaders saying that UMC leadership no longer defends classical Christianity, the vast majority of its doctrines, including the Trinity, or those churches who wish to defend traditional orthodox faith. They would be right in arguing such a thing. I have done a lot of work on my channel to substantiate the claim that a large number of UM bishops and heads of general boards and agencies have a low Christology, a high anthropology, and very little respect for scripture or the historic doctrines of the faith. This is not misinformation.
If you do have anything to substantiate that GMC leadership has said that the UMC as a whole has turned away from the faith, then I would be eager to see it. I will even report on it and call those who are saying such things liars. Charges of misinformation against the GMC have also been made in America. None of them have been substantiated.
I hope you move this show into the broader cultural conversation once this split is over
I’m glad you aren’t sick of my voice yet. I hope to continue expanding, as well. I don’t have clarity on what that looks like yet, but there’s time.
I believe in god
This video is about you not why you accepted the new discipline. What is in the new discipline
You don’t need to spend so much time defending yourself. Tell what you feel is going on.
While I've not been "inside" the UMC since leaving home as a PK, my heart breaks for many who will be blindsided next year when the UMC NEXT gobbles up the remnants of the denomination, conforming it into a large anything goes, COEXIST social club. Yes, that will happen.
Even as an outsider, I speak loudly and often about what is happening, and must you, brother. You are not alone, and I hope you don't feel you are. I fear many will finally speak, but too late, to waken the masses.
Thanks for your kind words, Bob. I don't feel alone, necessarily. I'm just perpetually frustrated that more reasonable and honest voices are often relegated to the sidelines. But I think perhaps that is an immature frustration. I think we are right now at a critical point at which a lot of folks could potentially wake up and realize the direct threat ahead. A lot of folks within the UMC would say that sort of statement is fear mongering. I think there is good reason to be concerned about the immediate future. I agree with you that a hostile takeover is at hand and could reasonably be expected to finally come to fruition at GC 2024. Let's continue praying for those who are currently still inside the UMC but who will be spiritually strangled if they don't find a way out.
Liberal and Conservative labels are not very helpful. The actions/behaviors are important and should be weighed with words like morality and reason and meaning. One must have a clear understanding of an absolute good. Christianity is not about sex and even marriage was not part of the early church.
Liberal and conservative both map onto very real families of value structures. They keep being used precisely because they are so helpful in determining the truth in complex situations. A leftist goal, by the way, is the breakdown of language. For that reason, I insist pretty strongly on the use of these terms. Sex is indeed a huge part of the Christian faith. While early believers did do a better job in blessing spiritual eunuchs, it is categorically wrong to say that marriage wasn't part of the early church. It was normative. Feel free to keep watching my stuff, but you're going to have a hard time if you can't reconsider what you've offered here. I'll be interviewing Dr. David deSilva next week, who is an expert in the early Church. Perhaps I can ask him to elaborate on some of this so that you might learn a bit more about the early church and marriage. Sounds like you might've imbibed some bad info.
@@plainspokenpod The references about not seeking the pleasures of the flesh are many and I can not believe that you have not read them so I assume the passion to be right has overcome judgement.
KJB
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh."
"Those who walk in the flesh live according to the flesh prove that they do by their works but those with the Spirit of God prove that they are Christ's"
I am sure you will not accept any source other then that which agrees with you but I fear your understanding of conservative will suffer there by.
" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_marriage "
"People could marry by mutual agreement in the presence of witnesses. At first, the old Roman pagan rite was used by Christians, although modified superficially. The first detailed account of a Christian wedding in the West dates from the 9th century. This system, known as Spousals, persisted after the Reformation."
Humility, Acceptance, Simplicity.
One can not partake of contention and be a good Christian for respect of all humans is essential. That which furthers duality is not a good path and duality was an early Christian sin, as attested to by opposition to Zoroastrianism, so seeing the world in terms of good and bad labels goes no where. I will suggest that morality dictates functionality and there is a compromise with sex and by virtue of this so marriage is in Christianity. I will also note that marriage was part of the Roman Empire prior to Christianity and when Christianity became the state religion of Rome it had to provide a marriage ceremony, but I think did so reluctantly.
brother come on over the the Baptist family, we'd welcome you! though the Southern Baptists may not be a good fit because of wesleyan soteriology, youd be in much agreement with the Free Will Baptists and their soteriology and emphasis on holiness. the only big things youd have to change if coming over to the Baptist family, is adopting believers baptism by immersion and congregational polity. to my understanding the Congregational Methodist Church has already done those things, so check them out as well! in any case blessings as you follow Jesus. the UMC is bankrupt, but little do they know God will use this to bless others that are faithful to Christ. in augusta ga, a local Baptist church was able to buy a million dollar property for a mere 50 thousand dollars, which was a former UMC church that closed. another closed UMC church is being bought by another Baptist church that needs to expand cause they are busting at the seems. the UMC has gone the way of the episcopal church and will no longer exist in 20 years. remember that Jesus was a jewish rabbi and was brought before the religious authorities and "fired" as well.
I have come to know and appreciate many faithful Baptist brothers over the years. Thanks for your kind words here!
Many say they appreciate your approach, but I don't think they realize you're hide dissenting comments. If you make your comment section into an echo chamber of one-sided views, then you're certainly not acting in good faith like you claim.
Generally speaking I am the one removing comments. The only comments I will/have removed are those who are blatantly trolling or being hateful/insulting. Thankfully I haven’t had to do that much at all. You can see disagreeable comments on the videos we have. You shouldn’t speak to something you don’t have any way of knowing. Considering your profile is only a few days old I’m going to assume you’re one of the comments I’ve removed and this is a burner account. I won’t remove it but if your comments do become hateful or insulting I will remove this account as well.
Engaging with our detractors and modeling Christian grace is the only way that our culture can be saved. Wokeness is a philosophy without grace, but rather built on signaling virtue through confessing the sins of others and offering only condemnation. But in the case of our church, how do you do it with people who refuse to engage with you at all, who change the rules, and still refuse to say what their intentions are? I wish that there were some way that we could provoke or pressure them into engaging. You're fortunate that you have a cabinet in your conference that seems to not be going over the cliff of insanity in their disdain for conservative churches that wish to leave. I can only deduce that my church and the others like mine in N. Georgia will not be as fortunate. My congregation is 95%+ in agreement in the desire to leave, but my cabinet is going to take our property that our ancestors built in 1859. There won't be any congregation for it to serve, but selling it to a developer will line their coffers. That will be decided by a newly appointed bishop from New York who has never been to my town.
What are the changes you think you could find a single bishop or DS from any jurisdiction in the US who would be willing to engage with you in good faith on your podcast, and offer justification for the way annual conferences are handling disaffiliation?
If a congregation wanted to disaffiliate and become independent, nondenominational or something other than Methodist, I think the UMC would be justified in keeping the property. But if you are remaining Methodist, even though within another Methodist denomination, taking your building does not serve the Kingdom of God and is the epitome of vindictiveness and mean-spiritedness.
I think there are some. I'm actually going to be interviewing the activist in Virginia that I reported on, whose bishop had him brought up on charges and then held him or his charges in abeyance. And there are some centrists who have shown interest in talking. But none from the bureaucracy of the UMC, not that I have asked a lot. An African bishop (Yohanna) spoke with me. Three American bishops have turned me down, only one taking the time to respond to my invitation. Every DS has chosen not to respond to me. If my platform gets big enough, I think there could realistically be a point at which a few American bishops feel some effective pressure for a public conversation.
I am of the mind that wokism and far leftism tear down exclusively, without building anything up to replace. I think centrists and others will only see this if shown. Lonnie Brooks wrote a good column, predicting that the liberals will devour the centrists after conservatives are defeated. Setting the stage for that to happen in a way that can render some fruit of learning and edification would be ideal. I guess we'll see what happens.
95 likes & 25 comments, people are taking notice, Yes you are building it, it's a heart issue not one issue, and not everyone trapped by this situation until brothers can separate in the beauty of the Lord, because even Europe is backing out of trans kids, because it's a heart issue, spiritual battle for your soul
Cincy, you have been a good friend! I sure hope this thing has legs. When it feels like the world has gone mad, it is a comfort to know that so many around our culture see the same maladies and causes for concern. God bless Methodism!
@@plainspokenpod Yes it's a good cause, and as you keep reminding us, let's do our best to keep this civil. Amen