I think the Disney purchase of Star Wars is the epitome of what is discussed here. When the creator (George Lucas) fell short of fan expectations after the release of Return of the Jedi by not producing more films in the franchise, fans took it upon themselves to continue the story in novels, comics, fan films, etc. When the prequels also fell short of expectations, the fans again took it upon themselves to create an Expanded Universe pieced together across dozens of kinds of media from thousands of different creators. Many of these stories had direct approval or even oversight from the creator himself, but they were original works that reflected a unique perspective of Star Wars. The Disney purchase undid 50 years of fan participation in the cannon, in favor of a homogenized lore from a perspective curated by the largest media conglomerate in history. The new lore is vague, inconsistent, and is subject to constant change. Directors and writers are fired frequently, rewrites and reshoots are commonplace. The best additions to Star Wars are the furthest from the new ownership and any corporate interference. Ashoka has been the best addition to the canon in recent history, and she was essentially Dave Filoni's fanfiction character who was introduced in a children's cartoon just before Disney acquired the IP. To get an satisfying addition to the story, they had to rely on Filoni (an actual fan) to get results. When fan culture goes 'too mainstream' is not the problem, Star Wars has been 'mainstream' since it debuted. It is when fan culture falls out of the hands of actual fans who care about the story being told. When fan culture goes corporate, it always ends poorly for the fans.
Imagine thinking you have ownership of some media because you're the consumer of content. And then get angry because the new movie does not align to your headcanon, eh no, that's not how movies are made at all, and I hope none of you work at hollywood
I'm sorry, but I have a problem with seeing a difference in the creators of official Star Wars material pre- and post-Disney. They were not fans like this video talked about, but paid artists. And I can't wrap my head around how one can claim that the new cannon is "vague, inconsistent, and is subject to constant change" when compared to the old Expanded Universe.
I feel like the more mainstream our favorite things get, the more we will push to find something new to like. Sort of like how AAA games have been taken over by corporate greed, so lots of people move to smaller indie games.
Kind of like how I haven't read marvel since the 90's and sometimes when I get nostalgic I write fanfic. A lot of the fanfic I read years ago was better than the comics. Imho
The widespread proliferation of "Geek Culture" could only have happened because, in order to make it more palatable to wider audience members, the entertainment industry had to jettison the intellectual elements which used to commonly accompany all things within Geekdom. In effect, to monetize the trappings of geek life, you had to dumb things down. Its akin to the fast food model of monetizing food. Its hard to make a lucrative business selling whole oranges, which are fairly nutritious and filling. Strip that orange of all its nutritive value by removing the fiber and extract sweet juice, and then make it even sweeter by adding some sugar and fizz to it, and sell it as an orange flavored soda, and you make billions.
Are there really “intellectual elements” when it comes to something you consume? I mean the MCU started because the “fans” didn’t support Marvel so they sold rights to “lesser” characters to stay afloat. Spider Man, The X-Men, and definitely Iron Man did well and the “fans” got upset because they felt they had more of a right over the characters then the new fans. Video games haven’t just “become” popular the people who liked them have grown up and shared them with their kids, and them with their friends. That’s just how entertainment works. Sports, Music, Cinema, TV, etc. I actually think it’s to the detriment of the mediums because artistry and integrity get stripped out of things meant solely for profit. I mean 90% of the movies, shows, and games that come out at below average at best. And we’ve trained people to only care about profit. It’s the bed we made. If we could stop making our identities around entertainment, and care less about being entertained 24/7 maybe we’d get more quality out of it. Not like we don’t have enough. I mean it’s the basis of our culture, politics, and most of our infrastructure.
To play with your analogy: aluminum-canned and plastic-bottled soda have a longer shelf life than oranges in any climate or storage space. There's an interesting parallel to debates food historians and development economists still have about potatoes vs. wheat: where, when and through what technology does which plant deliver cheaper calories? To get back to entertainment economics: compare musicians and performers like Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull & Jon Bon Jovi, who took steps to save money in their hey-day, to Ozzy Osbourne and George Jones who frittered that glorious payday away. Anderson & Bon Jovi can play to audiences of rabid fans in small venues whenever they choose. Ozzy and Jones were lucky enough to get a second chance.
I would consider game modding another "participatory culture" similar to fan fiction. Similar conflicts with IP and a big dividing line when you're getting paid to make it.
I was about to comment this exactly! And also to make the interesting point of game studios like Bethesda, which has a large and often irritated modding fanbase. (Looking at you AE update for Skyrim breaking many mods) Bethesda actually hired modder to work for them, in a way incorporating the fan into the production. And of course the Creation Club, where fans can make content for the game for a small monetary reward. I'm still not sure how I feel about the Creation Club, because on the one hand they make a hobby a capitalistic venture, but on the other hand I don't think that mods are only true "fanmade" if they are not monitized. Aka art is only art when it's free sentiment.
I suspect the rich growth of the indie video game scene is largely thanks to their promotion of mod culture and hands-off attitude towards copyright (especially filmed playthroughs). Making a game mod-friendly is almost essential to its success nowadays.
Interesting how this is framed as 'who should control the content: the fans, or the massive corporations that own the IP?' and the actual originating artists who create the IP in the first place aren't a part of the discussion at all. The argument that the fans should have more control over Marvel than Disney does sounds pretty attractive - but what if the 'corporation' is George R.R. Martin or N.K. Jemisin? What is the philosophy here? Who owes who what? I would like to see a part 2 that handles this, Wisecrack. (But you don't owe me that!)
I think if copyrights had a shorter term, the distinction would matter less George RR Martin might even be motivated to his books faster of he copyright in the first novel in the Game of Thrones series only lasted 20 years, instead of life of the author plus 70 years, as it is in the U.S. (for now, I am sure Disney will puch to expand that).
This is a fascinating debate. MatPat from Game Theory actually did a video on the lore of Super Smash Bros Ultimate that lightly touches on the ideas presented here. He says that the lore of the game represents corporate greed vs fan ownership, with the creator and the characters left in the middle and forgotten. The big baddies of the story mode represent those two sides. But only when both are held back, is there truly peace. There's definitely something more to be said here
The topic then becomes the death of the author. It's quite popular right now to ignore the author as soon as they've given the audience what they want, only to harass them to produce more or change once they're done consuming it. I'm not a fan, but art seems to have gone the way of "the customer is always right", sadly.
This is a very interesting question. I guess the definition of "geek culture" and what makes something "geeky" is the real question. I sorta think it is similar to what you described in the music industry. Young people rebelled against the status quo and did their own thing. Think about how punk rock formed... Many individuals of the 70s were irritated by the longer and longer, pretensions of the big rock bands and more importantly, the music industry. Yes, that scene was absorbed and commercialized into a travesty to the founders, but rebellion and trying something "new" will exist for every generation. In a few more years, I am hopeful that some NEW-fangled thing will disturb my aging brain and make the young feel empowered. With any luck, these young people will discover a better way to live through the failures of older generations.... And yes, art is a large part of how a generation communicates with each other.
There's a possibility that what you're hoping for as happened so far only because of a few new media, rather than new genres using established instruments. Consider all the avenues opened by the synthesizer. Performances with them still relied on an audience focused on one stage at a time. I'd even consider it a sort of evangelical communication structure, at least compared to social media's germinating and viral tendencies. I use evangelical b/c I actually did some reading about the development of American Quakers this weekend. No pulpit, everyone facing each other with no formal leadership. Very interesting.
I'd say real geeks and nerds still get those looks because they're deep into the non-mainstream fandoms. The niche and truly different. Those kids still get the looks and problems we did as kids for liking things that are normalized now.
It’s nice that people will ask in a kind of excited voice if I’m going to a RenFaire or ComicCon when I’m out & about in costume. Used to be if I didn’t just get dirty looks I’d get people condescendingly asking “are you in a play?Oh? Then why are you wearing that?”
I do hope it'll be even more welcome in the future. Where I'm from, it's still mostly the object of judgement and alienation. I'm not even that old, and they think it's weird that I love "cartoons" and fiction.
What makes a geek is obsession over fiction. Normal people don't get worked up about differences between a book and a movie. Geeks do. Example, Thor and Thor 2 weren't good movies. Ragnarok was. But geeks whine about Ragnarok despite its critical acclaim.
Of course it does. Geek culture can't *die* - it changes. Here's some wonderful geek things for instance: - Reverse-engineering games - Lore discussions about fictional worlds - Amateur Astronomy - Game Modding - Painting Miniatures etc. Geek culture evolved, broadened into other directions. What "normies" think geek culture is is a shallow echo of the real thing, and it's not fragile enough to be destroyed by a few corporations.
After reading BS Jobs, I’d postulate that geek culture’s potential as creators especially in Hollywood has been particularly stymied by corporate interests. It’s real sad frankly because a lot of original ideas get lost with too many administrative staff tampering with projects as they get pitched and even if they get approved changes are made to scripts outside of creators’ control.
I think there is another side of this, though, that the video misses. If fans don't like something the big corporation releases and it consequently doesn't earn it's money back on that project, the corporation will be less likely to try a similar idea again. Ultimately, the problem is with the big corporations' need to make money. The latest Star Wars trilogy comes to my mind. I seem to be in a minority of people who thought The Last Jedi had an important story to tell. I recognize it was a story that was never going to fit in a trilogy as it was setting up the resistance for defeat and that was certainly a storyline that wasn't going to be allowed to happen! The point, though, is that, as a consequence of fan displeasure, we're now unlikely to get any story like that.
Cooperations ruin everything. Be it indi/punk music, or anime, or comics. If the suits can cultivate and then exploit a fan community for a quick buck, then they will. Anime went from being a relatively misunderstood and nich medium where the localizers were fans just as much as consumers, to being nothing but a cash cow that the suits are using to line their pockets. I'd give anything for the days of getting wedgies in middle school for wearing a Eureka 7 shirt over every normie on the block posting about how All Might could beat Hulk in a fight.
God this comment speaks to me so much. That's part of the reason why it's so hard for me to enjoy anime nowadays rarely anything comes out that I'm like "YES I FUCKING LOVE THIS!!!!" It's more like "ehh I'll watch it." Plus with the overhyped echo chamber culture surrounding anime it's not as enjoyable to discuss anymore.
@@saucymongoose7246 1. I see you also have good taste in Waifus 2. Oh how right you are. Honestly, hype cycles and the CONSOOOOOOOMER mindset are killing my interest in anime, or any media in general. 3. You ever think it's ironic how the suits have managed to turn the people that use to bully us for liking anime into obnoxious idiots who are about as normie as it get? Like, I swear the kids who use to bully me for like anime when I was kid, are now the gym bros wearing DBZ tank tops and touching eachother's PP's while doing squats.
@@tonythekillab8189 1. Thank you 😊 2. Yeah man the constant hype cycles are incredibly annoying plus for me it's the consumer base that's equally to blame for letting companies manipulate them like that. And if you go against the hype cycle you automatically get called a contrarian like it's a bad thing. For example the anime Jujitsu Kaisen, it got massive hype at the end of 2020 with people gassing it up as the best anime of 2020 and when I watched it I felt nothing. I wasn't even bored I felt nothing it was imo painfully generic and unappealing and so I read the manga a bit to better form a critic on it and I got so much shit for it. 3. It's also funny how some of the nerds/geeks have also became the bullies in a way. They got made fun of for liking these nerdy things and now that it's mainstream they wanna act all high and mighty about it. Back in highschool I delt with a lot of weebs who praised anime so much that they found any other form of media beneath them. Showed them some comics or cartoons or games that they would really enjoy but if it wasn't anime they wouldn't even touch it. I remember one time I was talking to one of the popular kids back in like 11th or 12th grade and he was new to anime and he was watching DragonBall Super so I had a conversation with him and he was really cool but a few of my friends were talking shit because he was watching a "mainstream anime" saying how that wasn't real anime and so I cut them off and made friends with the popular kid who's one of my friends today long after we graduated. I'm not saying all geeks are like this but there are people out there who do gatekeep or aren't as accepting of people getting into there hobbies.
@@saucymongoose7246 It doesn't help that as you get older, you see more and more things, so nothing looks unique anymore. Jujustu Kaisen probably looks like a Bleach knockoff to a Millennial and everyone's seen stuff like MHA because that kind of story is Shounen Jump's bread and butter.
So you'd rather see kid-on-kid violence, maybe even prefer getting bullied yourself, than read someone's opinion about an entirely fictional arm-wrestling match? Or did I misread that?
10:15 Indeed. Fanfic at least to me is a way to see characters in ways the main one never will or see the world in new ways. But as the artists have gotten older the division between fanart and regular art is becoming very blurred as lots of fanartists are exceptionally skilled and even do regular art as well.
Consider if using someone's contest submission for marketing purposes is "exploitation" when there's oceans of people who choose not to compete in the contest.
My first fan convention was DragonCon. I was super stoked to go to a voice acting panel of folks who voiced much of my childhood cartoons A decade later, I hesitate to even bother with Comic ComicCon because it is corporately owned. DragonCon feels like the tight knit community of OG fandoms for all ages especially for those of us who were born when geek culture was just starting to become mainstream
Geek Culture as a label is still a thing it's just reserved for the more niche nerdy interest i.e. Magic the Gathering, toy collecting, and tabel top RPG
Geek culture does still exist, we just have more people who are geeks and geek posers. Plus, there's more money to be made by whoring out to geeks. Corporations are just trying to latch onto a market trend.
I don’t know that geeks have been “anti-consumerist” at their core. Star Wars fans bought a crap-ton of merch in the 80s, and they buy even more today. But they were definitely more about grass roots and free expression before, and the corporatization of conventions has definitely impinged on that core.
As an anime fan who started in the early 90s and had lived the anime convention life for well over 20 years, I've lived through the weird world of some niche thing that I loved going way mainstream. While I had been a very knowledgeable and highly engaged member of the community for a long, long time, there came a point where anime started attracting a much larger fandom that someone once asked me whether I was angry that so many newer, less knowledgeable fans had come into the scene and, to an extent, started hijacking it (with the series they like and were popular as opposed to the things I watched and obsessed over). My answer was that I was just happy the medium was becoming more popular, no matter what, as that was my goal all along. That's why I've moved on to promoting western animation, as I feel this is the cutting edge of western storytelling. An animated series doesn't need a $10 million/per episode budget to tell the story they want due to set design, costumes, makeup, etc. They can do literally draw anything they want whenever they want, all the time. This freedom allows for more interesting storytelling, in my opinion, and allows the creation of such greats as Gravity Falls, The Owl House, BoJack Horseman, Rick and Morty, Amphibia, South Park and even bizarre projects like Aeon Flux. Where the video strikes a chord is where corporations attempt to flex their wallets to stifle fan interaction. Warner Bros. is notorious for trying to demonitize the top creators of the IP they own while those creators are tying to promote their products. The prime example was one of the top Dune content creators getting their videos DMCA'd by Warner Bros for having like 6 seconds of the new Dune movie trailer in a 45 minute long review video. This is neither helpful to the fandom nor actually legal, but Warner Bros. can flex their wallets to impose a de-facto lockdown on their properties, because nobody involved can afford counterclaims. The American copyright and intellectual property laws are what are ruining the unfettered growth of most fandoms.
Hey Adam! So sorry about that. We were pulling footage before our vacation in November and completely lapsed on double checking that we could use your video. We just linked to your channel in the video description - and we'll throw a card in the top right too! Taro ruul asz 🙂
That's a very interesting video. Disney has been caught using fan art in their own productions without giving credit. Years ago the TV show Glee used a song someone else performed without giving credit. It was a cover song, but that shouldn't matter. I think geek culture is still there, but it's changed. This may sound like a hipster, but there's IPs and media out there that hasn't been touched by megacorporations which has its fans. Go to a fan-run convention and you'll find it, geek culture in its original form - a niche market by fans for fans. The best example is filk, people singing songs about IPs and their fandom and other things in their spare time. It can't go mainstream because the target demographic is too narrow.
I think talking about Star Trek fans could have been a good opportunity to smash some other biases by pointing out that Trek-fic was originally mostly Kirk/Spock slash fic written by american housewives, and those women were integral in keeping Trek on the air when it was almost cancelled during one of its seminal seasons as well as starting some of the first conventions
Wrote my thesis on this very subject. Fan's desire for more content is a driving force behind the emergence of transmedia, a property's existence across multiple media (think Star Wars being connected though books, games, movies, etc). The big corporations failings is in their lack of ability to bring the audience to these other outlets. With these somewhat periphery brands becoming mainstream, big business tends to only think of mainstream, big budget media, when they could do more and at the same time please die-hard fans by using less traditional media (which are also cheaper).
Last time I got into a discussion about fandoms, it turned out that they are more problematic for corporations than it's presented in the studies. Most of toxic fandoms work as heretics or violent zealots damaging the industry and the livelyhoods of employees or artists.
I grew up and still am left-wing or sometimes anarchist. I always thought gatekeeping was bad. But all this has taught me that gatekeeping is necessary to prevent the complete subsumption of the materials that fans love into corporate spam s**t. And you'll get labelled as evil if you try to "gatekeep"... by the people who are so brainwashed, dull and consumptive that they'll dump on the good content that BIRTHED the crap they now love. Let's not even discuss "The Rings Of Power", even though that's the example that finally dragged the cockroach corporations and shills screaming into the light. I would even gatekeep myself out, be honest and say "not really my fight because I can't truly claim to be a LOTR fan". Because even though that's a valid fight, I still can't help but think "That's great guys and thanks, but where the f*** were you all when AppleTV and that a$$hole David Goyer f*cked Isaac Asimov's Foundation into a season of something that promotes THE DIAMETRIC OPPOSITE OF EVERYTHING THAT WAS EVER IMPORTANT TO ASIMOV'S WORKS? So there it is. In order to keep content good, I have to cop to wanting to be one of those evil "gatekeepers"; labelled so by people who are too damn stupid to realise that they are soylent. And I don't just mean "soylent fodder for the corporations"; I mean "they're so self-and-other-destroyingly stupid they ought to be soylent, do the world a favour and throw themselves into the processing plant and thereby save a cow".
What gets me about fan vs corporate culture is that it's usually better for the company to keep a hands off approach to fan media. Basically let's say you make a fan game of a Nintendo IP, it's usually better for Nintendo to do nothing rather then send the dreaded cease and desist letter. Now in the case of Nintendo the opposite usually happens, but I think as a fan companies burn a lot of good will for the products when they attack fan content. Some companies get this, but many don't.
I don’t mind that there’s way more fans now. I actually can have casual conversations about marvel, Star Wars, and all the other stuff I’ve loved since I was a kid with friends and folks at work instead of having to discuss it in chat boards and at conventions where I’ve always been regarded as “less than” and had my fandom questioned and even mocked by so called “true fans” simply for not fitting whatever the old “geek” stereotype was. I either didn’t get to discuss the media I loved so much or I had to discuss it with people who weren’t very nice to me. And some of these “the normies ruined it” comments reek of the type of that exact attitude.
You know, this is very interesting line of question Because I have indeed seen this new wave of fans that wants fandom to be a sanitized space - as "safe" as the original brand itself, as it was one and the same. I'm from the time fandom was a back alley full of weird, kind of dirty, offbrand things that were AMAZING... or not. It was a gamble. But it was wild and free; And now people want this same sanitized, corporatized, extension of the marketing space working as a fandom and ugh, it's been killing me slowly. And the new wave of fans are fighting us off as if we, the weird offbrand people are wrong! And if we should stop existing I just wanted to be in weird in peace. Please. I'm not here to help corporations sell stuff, I just want to think out loud and draw some stuff.
Fans now have some say to the studio thanks to social media and ratings. Recently Netflix took Cowboy Bepop live action film out due to backlashes from fans of the original anime series. Truly a wonderful Xmas gift to preserve its timeless legacy for audience haven't discovered yet. Edit: Nope. Its still there.
Fandom has become a form of consumer democracy and just like in regular democracy, corporations seek to coopt them to their own ends and reclaiming the power they wield.
Ironically enought alot of those Geeks especially during the 70s yo 90s became the one that brought geek culture to the mainstream in the 21st century look at people in for front of Comicbooks and their movies TV series in Fantasy and Scifi as well as Anime & Manga in Asian Media including video games think people like dave filoni and jon favreau who grewup with star wars and other thing considered nerdy if you look at most of those in the industry they we just fans of this stuff which lead them into creating their own stuff which will make a new geek culture for them and the cycle goes on it interesting cycle of renewing
Yes geek culture has now been mainstreamed , before the older you get it was frowned about and you were viewed as a nerd or geek but with social media the average person sees celebrities and other adults still enjoying fan fic and thus it is now accepted to be in those fandoms as adult . All the younger generations are seeing this and will continue to make geek culture the standards
It's funny how the same thing I was bullied for in school is now praised as cool and interesting. Good old times of people grabbing our character sheets and ripping it in pieces and throwing in the trash while calling us losers.
Great coverage though this is my first time to view/read about geek culture as a "scholarly subject" I have been living geekily since reading my first comic about 40++ years ago. I wonder if it would've helped to add a formal definition (and maybe a table) of geek vs non geek vs nerd (behavior/attributes). I myself have consumed a lot and occasionally commented/criticized either to praise or point out flaws in movies/books/comics that I've read/viewed. My quick answer is geekdom will not die it will just evolve as it has already evolved since it's early beginnings in the Victorian era. Currently it is much more mainstream & overt than it used to be but I doubt it will actually became the majority. Whatever the final penetration.rate will be it's clear that geekdom will excel in leveraging technology to magnify their collective or individual voices. And geekdom itself will factionalise (fractionalize?) along certain dimensions. Like there will be one faction that will love anything & anything with a Star Wars label on it and some geeks will be far more picky and discriminating as what constitutes good to great Star Wars stuff, but both groups will be equally passionate & vocal about their preferences. 😎
I honestly don't care much whether a fandom is more in the hands of the geek subculture or ruled by corporations who want to squeeze money from it. As an avid consumer of stories, I expect quality, no matter where it comes from. The trouble with big productions is that by being followed by many more fans than your average fanfiction and therefore there will be a massive backlash when fans can't agree, in particular since many mistake "I don't like / understand this" with "It's badly made"...
Depends on what you classify as a "geek culture". A Harry Potter fan is very different from a Potterhead. For example, Kpop stans are not considered part of mainstream geek culture, but they are very much a fandom. Corporate greed does not drive organic fan interaction because there is a difference between consuming media and engaging with it. Dedicated fans will always create their own content: theories, memes, videos, music, parody, merch, etc.
I really don’t think geek culture vanished as much as fandom expanded. Geeks will drift into different IP , while fans will stick to one. A jock is a person is is passionate about many sports or physicality itself , while perhaps not a fan of a single sport to memorize stats of a factorite team.
@@MRCKify you ever seen those fan projects that get really far then all a sudden the company sees the fans having fun without a tax, so they gotta come in with the elves
We hold what they want: our money. Without respect, we must reject. If they make crap, we must ignore it. If corporate geekdom fades, let it die; we will return and make our own, as it was in the past. We are the geeks and the nerds. We hold the power.
I do think fandom can still stand on its own too. Fandom is the reason Young Justice got brought back and still exists. That being said, in other ways yes it becomes corporate but that balance is still there. I don’t think they’re overtaking each other at all.
Geek culture is the R&D department for the entertainment industry to see what kind of baubles they can sell without embarrasing the prospective buyer seeing how the concept of a Nerd is still something to look down on. Case in point : The "Joke" at the end about shoving Nerds.
The same way we remember the 60’s with hippies despite most people not fitting that stereotype, i think when people remember the 2010’s years from now the stereotype will be “nerds”
I would say. Geekdom still exist because even when corporations get their hands on most IPs that we love they tend to mess it up anyway and we have to go back to the source material anyway. Think about this recent Cowboy Bebop situation and Netflix or the entire DCEU and Warner Brothers. The fans who enjoyed the source material know that's usually the best place to go for us in order to enjoy these things when Hollywood turn them into something completely different or can't connect with the core fan base.
While I agree that corporations now play a massive part in geek culture, have things really changed that much? I'm legitimately asking. Notably, a lot of geek culture that was popular in the late 70s, 80s, and 90s, is still popular now. And even back then, DC would let you dress up as Batman any day of the week but wouldn't let you nationally publish and sell your fanfic. Trade shows were much smaller back then but many of the corporations/creators still showed up. So has that much really changed other than the obvious merchandising?
I think you have a point, although what has changed in my opinion is that now it's mega corporations like Disney, Netflix, Universal. So more and more of what we consume is owned by less and less corporations.
I think it doesn't matter if it's mainstream... fans are still fans. They're not fans specifically to be "counter culture" (never mind the ridiculousness of being anti-mainstream for the sake of trying to be different rather than just being yourself regardless of whether or not it's different from mainstream; or being different for the sake of being different is stupid), and they still do all the same stuff they did before, they're just more accepted, but I don't think being "not mainstream" has anything to do with it. I also think there's some conflation between "fandom" and "fanboyism" here. There's very much still "dorks" who make their whole identity about being a fan of X thing, complete with ridiculous gatekeeping, pointing out technical flaws that don't matter ("omg 0/10, they parted X sub character's hair on the left when it should be on the right, whole thing is ruined now!"), etc. Regardless, I don't think geek and fandom were purposely counter-culture, they just HAPPENED to be counter-culture, and anything about counter culture or not is irrelevant.
Think it all depends on the folks around you. I waited in line outside BestBuy for the store to open during Metroid Dread's launch and proudly wore my old Metroid Zero Mission shirt. Two young ladies who walked me whispered to themselves saying I was a `dork` while the other males waiting in line thought me showing off my fandom was very cool; one guy even high-fived me.
No more geek culture, no more punk culture, no more skate culture, no more ethenic culture, no more gay culture. It has all been tossed in the corporate blender pulverized spun twisted and blandified all meaning and goodness reduced to make a product to consume.
Look at the Fandom Menace. Big corps can try to herd the fans to where they think they should go, but fans can reject not only this force towards a particular direction, but the very source product itself if the Corp tries to force something the fans absolutely do not want.
My gut says this here video can offer a glimpse of the positive evolution which (if the status quo were less resistant) the music industry COULD undertake. Two things which will always remain true in music, the most authentic artists are fans first-and Authenticity shines.
I think at the end of the day, it boils down to "How does this serve ME?" I'm fully aware that being an obsessive fan (and a toy collector) means that I'm susceptible to being swayed by others taking advantage of my fandom so I tend to ask myself what does this do to enrich my own life. I have an Iron Man statue on my desk because I admired how Tony Stark runs his own business, not that because he shoots repulser beams. Nowadays I collect Batman toys as reminders and a physical manifestation of Batman's virtues, which also means I'm extremely selective of which Batman toy I buy (sorry Ben Affleck). To me, my fandom and my purchases has to has make me strive to do more in life. I know fellow Bat-fans that would buy anything and everything companies throw at them, and while that's cool, I think I can't afford the indigence because it's a difficult hole to get myself out of.
I think there are a lot of people into it because its become popularized in the media and presented to them in a way that they wouldn't view as silly or be apprehensive about accepting. Once its over they move onto something else. Will it garner longtime fans? Of course, but my brother is a good example he was super into Harry Potter when the movies came out, had bought a shit ton of merchandise and stuff to show how much of a fan he was and then once the movies ended most of that stuff ended up in the dumpster, the MCU brough that about for him as well. Im not saying this is the norm, but I feel most people are into popular stuff on a surface level, its something to talk about and current, but it fades, not for everyone, but I see it in people all the time. However that may just be a particular franchise they just aren't as heavily into. I mean I know guy who has been obsessed with Dune and Halo since their inception. I think its suffers become corporatization and is more about consumer culture then geek culture.
As a nerd who was ostracised as a child & lived in geek culture for about 30 years... I'd say Geek Culture died with "The Big Bang Theory" TV show. When a person who bullied you as a kid is now as an adult is telling you how much he loves Spider-man after years of picking on you for the same, you know Geek Culture is dead! It's first wounds came in the mid 90's with the rise of the PlayStation, took a massive hit with The Dark Knight movie & The Big Bang Theory put it in it's grave! The subculture is now THE Culture & I've had to find a new niche in B&W era comedy films.
Fandom is so important that Star Wars as a franchise is still alive. After a trilogy of two good movies (the original). A prequel of only one good movie (Ep. III) and a sequel with no good movie, what is keeping Star Wars alive is fandom.
Good...??? Ep 4 is barely entertaining... and is the best of the bunch... i am convinced that people watches movies with their eyes connected to their stomaches and not to their brains...
Yeah I hate gatekeeping, which is endemic in Fandom and geek culture, but maybe the reason beyond the individulisation is that the individualism gives you solitude. You cannot but physically in the public sphere to be judged, which great, you feel comfortable in private to like what you like. But there are those of us who DID do it publicly back when it was to be shamed, and THAT is where that true community is built. I wouldn't have made it through high school without my weirdo geek friends :)
The way I see it is as a queer person of color. I think the way those parts of my cultural background interact with capitalism is very similar to how artists and their output gets caught up in big business. Corporations come in and see my cultures as an opportunity to feign awareness and respect of my background, but at the end of the day, it's a cash grab. Wokenomics, plain and simple. Similarly geek culture is very much alive in the same way, just slightly more bastardized in the mainstream eye thanks to corporate marketing. For that reason, I'm the type to bootleg everything. Especially from places like Netflix, Disney, and any other large company. With how they've treated fandoms and geek cultures (it's not one culture but many), I don't believe that they deserve a single dime from me.
The saddest thing for me about all this is that many of these works originally contained critiques of social issues and adressed very complex ideas in a way more digestable to a wide audience (democracy, religious zealotry, marginalization of minorities, ecological issues). nowadays it feels like films, tv shows, etc, are complicit in those very same issues if not straight up participating in them and causing harm for profits.
Geek culture is plenty alive in the niches and extremes of fandom. You can go on places like 4chan right now, and find expressions of fandom that will likely never be mainstream. The problem is, you probably wouldn't like them or want to be associated with them. Just like it used to be with what is now mainstream geek culture.
I honestly love the direction Wisecrack has taken these past 1-2 years or so. There is so much more awareness of your own position within the internet and pop culture. Topics are more interconnected than before. Keep up the great work!
This is the most generous interpretation of Fanfiction i've seen. I don't want to assert any weird authority here, but most fanfics I have read have all just been narcissistic, horny indulgences.
I think some people just wanna get to know themselves better through stuff that's not necessarily reality, ie art. Processing their most pressing issues, powerful feelings, concepts etc. Asking themselves "why do _I_ want this to happen? why do _I_ want this character to do that?" in order to progress with their story. Seeing it as you're _learning about yourself_ as you go. Not so much focused on actually communicating their findings so that the reader can learn too. Another kind of writer, not less "narcissistic" than the other, enjoy staying to the canon and making it their mission to double check every detail and ask themselves "would that character _really_ do that, though? Isn't that just what I _want_ them to do?" In order to move the story forward. Learning _about the source_ as they go. If that's their jam, or if they want to show appreciation by religiously staying true to "the book" and "the creator" makes them a devoted follower of somebody else's fantasies or somebody that values the community's expectations higher than their own business. Then you have the third kind, one that doesn't write nor read, but judge others for doing so. They have no backlog to feel embarrased over and don't like to "indulge" in themselves or art because it invokes too many negative feelings. They see it as something "dirty." Learning about "what not to do because I'll hate myself for it and everybody else will too" as you go. A living, breathing person is rarely just one of these. However much we would like that to be the case. Narcissistic isn't what comes to mind for any of these, though. More a natural self centeredness and natural bias that, when viewed by others, becomes "narcissistic" as it doesn't align with a) their fantasies or biases that naturally taint their interpretation of the original source material or b) doesn't align with "the truth" which they think is above the fans and not something to be interfered with.
@@hippieduck But why publish horny Inuyasha fanfiction when the author disclaims that they haven't actually read the series? If it's just for self-exploration and using IP you didn't create why, uh, think yourself a genuine author/publisher? That's like posting your dream journal online
@Obiwancolenobi Why they chose to publish their work remains a mystery for me too. Maybe it's a way to connect - sharing your imagined world with others to imagine. That's just being a writer though. The characters are borrowed and that doesn't translate well. Suppose they aren't worried about that, to really think it through. Most "mindless" fanfiction in this self exploration side of things are often people who have a need for processing stuff. Ramblings; Can for sure be seen as selfish or disrespectful to somebody else's art (or even a community) but in the end that's kinda working against our psychology to favor "the greater good" or "the source" that really don't suffer from people mentally borrowing from what's around them to explore their inner lives ie creativity. It can be annoying or even hateful depending on what emotions come closest when somebody seemingly don't give a hoot about what you give a hoot about but still use it for their own sake. Artists usually want their art to move and engage people, but then there's the issue of losing control of their creations because of just that. This happens in communities as well; "their" art is no longer just one thing but other people's interpretations of it. It comes down to personal taste and opinions. Ultimately, the thing they "know" and love is being misunderstood, taken for granted, and used, and that can be frustrating. But is that emotion good enough reason to stop others from creating? Or is it a sign to move away from fan creations to fully focus on your personal interpretation and yourself? Would that be seen as self-absorbed if there's no community involved? I digress... *I really like your username, btw. lol
I find it almost obvious that both sides are right. Corporations limit fan creativity, sure, but parody and commentary are not forbidden, so fans still put some pressure on the creators. Too many errors and fan criticism may keep people from buying. Then a fan version or recut might make you look bad. And popular fan UA-camrs may badmouth your whole shtick. A good example may be Star Wars: While the new movies made a lot of money, they made progressively less in part due to scathing criticism by fans. I didn't even watch episode 9, because it didn't do right by the source material. How did I know? Well, fans are more well-connected than ever before. There was a deluge of commentary, parody, etc. Screen Rant's Pitch Meeting series comes to mind. They're quick about it and so you know quickly when Hollywood shat the bed once more.
Hey, Wisecrack, I highly recommend you investigate the furry fandom as a noticeable contrast to everything you've described. The furry fandom is a tight-knit DIY community with no overarching or shared lore or canon, and there have been fierce debates within the community about the extent to which furries should welcome or tolerate potentially being co-opted by the corporations and the mainstream. Anywho, because geek is now chic, I've often pondered who the real "nerds" are now. Thanks in large part to the Internet, it seems like practically everybody can find their particular community or niche these days, and no hobbyist or interest group (that I'm aware of) is uniquely singled out by the mob anymore merely for liking the wrong thing, unless that thing is perceived as "problematic," toxic, or harmful. There are people who resent or hate certain fandoms or groups, absolutely, and rivalries between fandoms, sure, but "Let's point and laugh at the losers who enjoy _____" really doesn't seem to be part of the larger cultural zeitgeist anymore, and is often actively discouraged. Is my finger on the pulse here?
Pfft every fandom has toxicity, that leads to those individuals being singled out because they are bad people. Used to be a thing whole fandoms could strain under and some people still grow jaded over fandoms when they are met with the loud minority, but it's often a problem that drowns itself now.
Yeah, you're totally right. I feel like the insularity and decentralization of the furry community is both its strength and its weakness. It's really interesting.
@@insaincaldo , oh, every fandom absolutely has its share of toxicity, and I think some have handled that better at different points in history than have others. It's basically inevitable that once you get human beings together, you'll get "drama." It's also true that the "drama" and toxicity can cause a lot of genuine hurt and harm, and cause people to become jaded.
3:46 that's not Star Wars or Star Trek. That's Dirty Pair. A light novel from the 80's that inspired the Dirty Pair manga and anime (Wait, was that a geek trap???)
Toward your discussion question, I think the answer is yes. Look at the reaction online to something like the Star Wars sequels. Some people complained, then a bunch of other people attacked those with complaints as being toxic fans. We now speak of toxic fandoms as if the fandoms are a toxic community, but there is no community to speak of. At this point none of us are fans anymore, we're just consumers and the stories are the product. As consumers the only way we can steer the direction of the franchises we like is by voicing our displeasure and bringing down the value of the product. The people who make these stories only respond to financial pressures. While it certainly sucks when actors' Twitter accounts become the victim in these "toxic" campaigns (and I certainly don't encourage people to make these things personal), I think once you understand that all these story creators are just capitalists using the labor of their "fans" it makes more sense why people lash out at the shitty products we've been getting.
I think the Disney purchase of Star Wars is the epitome of what is discussed here.
When the creator (George Lucas) fell short of fan expectations after the release of Return of the Jedi by not producing more films in the franchise, fans took it upon themselves to continue the story in novels, comics, fan films, etc. When the prequels also fell short of expectations, the fans again took it upon themselves to create an Expanded Universe pieced together across dozens of kinds of media from thousands of different creators. Many of these stories had direct approval or even oversight from the creator himself, but they were original works that reflected a unique perspective of Star Wars.
The Disney purchase undid 50 years of fan participation in the cannon, in favor of a homogenized lore from a perspective curated by the largest media conglomerate in history. The new lore is vague, inconsistent, and is subject to constant change. Directors and writers are fired frequently, rewrites and reshoots are commonplace. The best additions to Star Wars are the furthest from the new ownership and any corporate interference. Ashoka has been the best addition to the canon in recent history, and she was essentially Dave Filoni's fanfiction character who was introduced in a children's cartoon just before Disney acquired the IP. To get an satisfying addition to the story, they had to rely on Filoni (an actual fan) to get results. When fan culture goes 'too mainstream' is not the problem, Star Wars has been 'mainstream' since it debuted. It is when fan culture falls out of the hands of actual fans who care about the story being told. When fan culture goes corporate, it always ends poorly for the fans.
Imagine thinking you have ownership of some media because you're the consumer of content. And then get angry because the new movie does not align to your headcanon, eh no, that's not how movies are made at all, and I hope none of you work at hollywood
Well-written.
@@isaiasovelar4434 I think you missed the point of the video.
Very on-point.
I'm sorry, but I have a problem with seeing a difference in the creators of official Star Wars material pre- and post-Disney. They were not fans like this video talked about, but paid artists.
And I can't wrap my head around how one can claim that the new cannon is "vague, inconsistent, and is subject to constant change" when compared to the old Expanded Universe.
Corporations: "Consume?"
Fans: [Start producing stuff of their own]
Corporations: "No produce! Only consume"
Corporations: "Consume?"
Fans: "Yo-ho, yo-ho, a pirate's life for me."
Average consumer: Mmm nom nom gib shit I gobble
Average enjoyer: SILENCE [BRAND]
I feel like the more mainstream our favorite things get, the more we will push to find something new to like. Sort of like how AAA games have been taken over by corporate greed, so lots of people move to smaller indie games.
Ooh I like that idea! What would you say are some indie shows/movies that have been super popular?
@@wendys9500 Korean cinema and tv shows are now drawing more attention than most western media, for example.
also retro games
niche japanese games
Kind of like how I haven't read marvel since the 90's and sometimes when I get nostalgic I write fanfic. A lot of the fanfic I read years ago was better than the comics. Imho
I read this as "Does Greek culture still exist?" and was ready with a very clever retort about americans and geography
SAME HAHAHAHAHA
I want to hear your points
I’m confused. So does Greek culture exist or doesn’t it?
@@MasterPourKnowP Not any more.
Please share your retorts.
Mentioned military veterans pioneered Geek culture were Stan Lee, J.R.R. Tolkien, and Gene Roddenberry.
The widespread proliferation of "Geek Culture" could only have happened because, in order to make it more palatable to wider audience members, the entertainment industry had to jettison the intellectual elements which used to commonly accompany all things within Geekdom. In effect, to monetize the trappings of geek life, you had to dumb things down. Its akin to the fast food model of monetizing food. Its hard to make a lucrative business selling whole oranges, which are fairly nutritious and filling. Strip that orange of all its nutritive value by removing the fiber and extract sweet juice, and then make it even sweeter by adding some sugar and fizz to it, and sell it as an orange flavored soda, and you make billions.
Are there really “intellectual elements” when it comes to something you consume? I mean the MCU started because the “fans” didn’t support Marvel so they sold rights to “lesser” characters to stay afloat. Spider Man, The X-Men, and definitely Iron Man did well and the “fans” got upset because they felt they had more of a right over the characters then the new fans.
Video games haven’t just “become” popular the people who liked them have grown up and shared them with their kids, and them with their friends. That’s just how entertainment works. Sports, Music, Cinema, TV, etc.
I actually think it’s to the detriment of the mediums because artistry and integrity get stripped out of things meant solely for profit. I mean 90% of the movies, shows, and games that come out at below average at best. And we’ve trained people to only care about profit.
It’s the bed we made. If we could stop making our identities around entertainment, and care less about being entertained 24/7 maybe we’d get more quality out of it. Not like we don’t have enough. I mean it’s the basis of our culture, politics, and most of our infrastructure.
To play with your analogy: aluminum-canned and plastic-bottled soda have a longer shelf life than oranges in any climate or storage space.
There's an interesting parallel to debates food historians and development economists still have about potatoes vs. wheat: where, when and through what technology does which plant deliver cheaper calories?
To get back to entertainment economics: compare musicians and performers like Ian Anderson of Jethro Tull & Jon Bon Jovi, who took steps to save money in their hey-day, to Ozzy Osbourne and George Jones who frittered that glorious payday away. Anderson & Bon Jovi can play to audiences of rabid fans in small venues whenever they choose. Ozzy and Jones were lucky enough to get a second chance.
D
I would consider game modding another "participatory culture" similar to fan fiction. Similar conflicts with IP and a big dividing line when you're getting paid to make it.
I was about to comment this exactly!
And also to make the interesting point of game studios like Bethesda, which has a large and often irritated modding fanbase. (Looking at you AE update for Skyrim breaking many mods)
Bethesda actually hired modder to work for them, in a way incorporating the fan into the production.
And of course the Creation Club, where fans can make content for the game for a small monetary reward.
I'm still not sure how I feel about the Creation Club, because on the one hand they make a hobby a capitalistic venture, but on the other hand I don't think that mods are only true "fanmade" if they are not monitized.
Aka art is only art when it's free sentiment.
I suspect the rich growth of the indie video game scene is largely thanks to their promotion of mod culture and hands-off attitude towards copyright (especially filmed playthroughs). Making a game mod-friendly is almost essential to its success nowadays.
Interesting how this is framed as 'who should control the content: the fans, or the massive corporations that own the IP?' and the actual originating artists who create the IP in the first place aren't a part of the discussion at all. The argument that the fans should have more control over Marvel than Disney does sounds pretty attractive - but what if the 'corporation' is George R.R. Martin or N.K. Jemisin? What is the philosophy here? Who owes who what? I would like to see a part 2 that handles this, Wisecrack. (But you don't owe me that!)
I think they have a video on that? I know I saw something with this exact topic but can't remember what channel.
I think if copyrights had a shorter term, the distinction would matter less George RR Martin might even be motivated to his books faster of he copyright in the first novel in the Game of Thrones series only lasted 20 years, instead of life of the author plus 70 years, as it is in the U.S. (for now, I am sure Disney will puch to expand that).
@@Pandaemoni great point.
This is a fascinating debate. MatPat from Game Theory actually did a video on the lore of Super Smash Bros Ultimate that lightly touches on the ideas presented here. He says that the lore of the game represents corporate greed vs fan ownership, with the creator and the characters left in the middle and forgotten. The big baddies of the story mode represent those two sides. But only when both are held back, is there truly peace. There's definitely something more to be said here
The topic then becomes the death of the author. It's quite popular right now to ignore the author as soon as they've given the audience what they want, only to harass them to produce more or change once they're done consuming it. I'm not a fan, but art seems to have gone the way of "the customer is always right", sadly.
This is a very interesting question. I guess the definition of "geek culture" and what makes something "geeky" is the real question. I sorta think it is similar to what you described in the music industry. Young people rebelled against the status quo and did their own thing. Think about how punk rock formed... Many individuals of the 70s were irritated by the longer and longer, pretensions of the big rock bands and more importantly, the music industry. Yes, that scene was absorbed and commercialized into a travesty to the founders, but rebellion and trying something "new" will exist for every generation. In a few more years, I am hopeful that some NEW-fangled thing will disturb my aging brain and make the young feel empowered. With any luck, these young people will discover a better way to live through the failures of older generations.... And yes, art is a large part of how a generation communicates with each other.
There's a possibility that what you're hoping for as happened so far only because of a few new media, rather than new genres using established instruments. Consider all the avenues opened by the synthesizer. Performances with them still relied on an audience focused on one stage at a time. I'd even consider it a sort of evangelical communication structure, at least compared to social media's germinating and viral tendencies.
I use evangelical b/c I actually did some reading about the development of American Quakers this weekend. No pulpit, everyone facing each other with no formal leadership. Very interesting.
I'm actually glad a lot of people enjoy it we used to get at least weird looks from people you kids just can't remember
W
I'd say real geeks and nerds still get those looks because they're deep into the non-mainstream fandoms. The niche and truly different. Those kids still get the looks and problems we did as kids for liking things that are normalized now.
It’s nice that people will ask in a kind of excited voice if I’m going to a RenFaire or ComicCon when I’m out & about in costume. Used to be if I didn’t just get dirty looks I’d get people condescendingly asking “are you in a play?Oh? Then why are you wearing that?”
I do hope it'll be even more welcome in the future. Where I'm from, it's still mostly the object of judgement and alienation. I'm not even that old, and they think it's weird that I love "cartoons" and fiction.
Geek culture really highlights how crappy our copyright laws are.
Copyright can go furthur, someone changed their logo design several times becouse others were using that shape design. Its ridiculous.
Copyright also kind of puts a cap on quality. That the quality of a fanwork is never allowed to match the original.
Yes. A geek is not defined by what they participate in but the manner in which they participate. It's a way of life.
Geeks, clearly, still exist, but the question is about geek culture which is different.
@@Jobsih True but I was implying that if geeks still exists then so does geek culture.
🤣
actually it's both but nice try
What makes a geek is obsession over fiction. Normal people don't get worked up about differences between a book and a movie. Geeks do.
Example, Thor and Thor 2 weren't good movies. Ragnarok was. But geeks whine about Ragnarok despite its critical acclaim.
Of course it does. Geek culture can't *die* - it changes. Here's some wonderful geek things for instance:
- Reverse-engineering games
- Lore discussions about fictional worlds
- Amateur Astronomy
- Game Modding
- Painting Miniatures
etc. Geek culture evolved, broadened into other directions. What "normies" think geek culture is is a shallow echo of the real thing, and it's not fragile enough to be destroyed by a few corporations.
After reading BS Jobs, I’d postulate that geek culture’s potential as creators especially in Hollywood has been particularly stymied by corporate interests. It’s real sad frankly because a lot of original ideas get lost with too many administrative staff tampering with projects as they get pitched and even if they get approved changes are made to scripts outside of creators’ control.
I think there is another side of this, though, that the video misses. If fans don't like something the big corporation releases and it consequently doesn't earn it's money back on that project, the corporation will be less likely to try a similar idea again. Ultimately, the problem is with the big corporations' need to make money.
The latest Star Wars trilogy comes to my mind. I seem to be in a minority of people who thought The Last Jedi had an important story to tell. I recognize it was a story that was never going to fit in a trilogy as it was setting up the resistance for defeat and that was certainly a storyline that wasn't going to be allowed to happen! The point, though, is that, as a consequence of fan displeasure, we're now unlikely to get any story like that.
Maybe geek culture was ousted and belittled by the mainstream because they didn't think they could profit from them.
Cooperations ruin everything. Be it indi/punk music, or anime, or comics. If the suits can cultivate and then exploit a fan community for a quick buck, then they will. Anime went from being a relatively misunderstood and nich medium where the localizers were fans just as much as consumers, to being nothing but a cash cow that the suits are using to line their pockets. I'd give anything for the days of getting wedgies in middle school for wearing a Eureka 7 shirt over every normie on the block posting about how All Might could beat Hulk in a fight.
God this comment speaks to me so much. That's part of the reason why it's so hard for me to enjoy anime nowadays rarely anything comes out that I'm like "YES I FUCKING LOVE THIS!!!!" It's more like "ehh I'll watch it." Plus with the overhyped echo chamber culture surrounding anime it's not as enjoyable to discuss anymore.
@@saucymongoose7246 1. I see you also have good taste in Waifus
2. Oh how right you are. Honestly, hype cycles and the CONSOOOOOOOMER mindset are killing my interest in anime, or any media in general.
3. You ever think it's ironic how the suits have managed to turn the people that use to bully us for liking anime into obnoxious idiots who are about as normie as it get? Like, I swear the kids who use to bully me for like anime when I was kid, are now the gym bros wearing DBZ tank tops and touching eachother's PP's while doing squats.
@@tonythekillab8189 1. Thank you 😊
2. Yeah man the constant hype cycles are incredibly annoying plus for me it's the consumer base that's equally to blame for letting companies manipulate them like that. And if you go against the hype cycle you automatically get called a contrarian like it's a bad thing. For example the anime Jujitsu Kaisen, it got massive hype at the end of 2020 with people gassing it up as the best anime of 2020 and when I watched it I felt nothing. I wasn't even bored I felt nothing it was imo painfully generic and unappealing and so I read the manga a bit to better form a critic on it and I got so much shit for it.
3. It's also funny how some of the nerds/geeks have also became the bullies in a way. They got made fun of for liking these nerdy things and now that it's mainstream they wanna act all high and mighty about it. Back in highschool I delt with a lot of weebs who praised anime so much that they found any other form of media beneath them. Showed them some comics or cartoons or games that they would really enjoy but if it wasn't anime they wouldn't even touch it. I remember one time I was talking to one of the popular kids back in like 11th or 12th grade and he was new to anime and he was watching DragonBall Super so I had a conversation with him and he was really cool but a few of my friends were talking shit because he was watching a "mainstream anime" saying how that wasn't real anime and so I cut them off and made friends with the popular kid who's one of my friends today long after we graduated. I'm not saying all geeks are like this but there are people out there who do gatekeep or aren't as accepting of people getting into there hobbies.
@@saucymongoose7246 It doesn't help that as you get older, you see more and more things, so nothing looks unique anymore. Jujustu Kaisen probably looks like a Bleach knockoff to a Millennial and everyone's seen stuff like MHA because that kind of story is Shounen Jump's bread and butter.
So you'd rather see kid-on-kid violence, maybe even prefer getting bullied yourself, than read someone's opinion about an entirely fictional arm-wrestling match? Or did I misread that?
10:15
Indeed. Fanfic at least to me is a way to see characters in ways the main one never will or see the world in new ways.
But as the artists have gotten older the division between fanart and regular art is becoming very blurred as lots of fanartists are exceptionally skilled and even do regular art as well.
I hadn't considered fandoms being recuperated and comodified. This has given me a lot to ponder.
Consider if using someone's contest submission for marketing purposes is "exploitation" when there's oceans of people who choose not to compete in the contest.
My first fan convention was DragonCon. I was super stoked to go to a voice acting panel of folks who voiced much of my childhood cartoons
A decade later, I hesitate to even bother with Comic ComicCon because it is corporately owned. DragonCon feels like the tight knit community of OG fandoms for all ages especially for those of us who were born when geek culture was just starting to become mainstream
@Heather exactly, “geek”is a counter culture. As soon as they become mainstream or part of popular culture, it stops being geek by definition
Geek Culture as a label is still a thing it's just reserved for the more niche nerdy interest i.e. Magic the Gathering, toy collecting, and tabel top RPG
none of those are niche
@@only20frickinletters lol was thinking the same thing
Comic book collecting
@@only20frickinletters Yes, it is. I don't even know anybody who does those.
and furries
Geek culture does still exist, we just have more people who are geeks and geek posers. Plus, there's more money to be made by whoring out to geeks. Corporations are just trying to latch onto a market trend.
9:18 i can only see Disney here. Just one company
I don’t know that geeks have been “anti-consumerist” at their core. Star Wars fans bought a crap-ton of merch in the 80s, and they buy even more today. But they were definitely more about grass roots and free expression before, and the corporatization of conventions has definitely impinged on that core.
As an anime fan who started in the early 90s and had lived the anime convention life for well over 20 years, I've lived through the weird world of some niche thing that I loved going way mainstream. While I had been a very knowledgeable and highly engaged member of the community for a long, long time, there came a point where anime started attracting a much larger fandom that someone once asked me whether I was angry that so many newer, less knowledgeable fans had come into the scene and, to an extent, started hijacking it (with the series they like and were popular as opposed to the things I watched and obsessed over). My answer was that I was just happy the medium was becoming more popular, no matter what, as that was my goal all along. That's why I've moved on to promoting western animation, as I feel this is the cutting edge of western storytelling. An animated series doesn't need a $10 million/per episode budget to tell the story they want due to set design, costumes, makeup, etc. They can do literally draw anything they want whenever they want, all the time. This freedom allows for more interesting storytelling, in my opinion, and allows the creation of such greats as Gravity Falls, The Owl House, BoJack Horseman, Rick and Morty, Amphibia, South Park and even bizarre projects like Aeon Flux.
Where the video strikes a chord is where corporations attempt to flex their wallets to stifle fan interaction. Warner Bros. is notorious for trying to demonitize the top creators of the IP they own while those creators are tying to promote their products. The prime example was one of the top Dune content creators getting their videos DMCA'd by Warner Bros for having like 6 seconds of the new Dune movie trailer in a 45 minute long review video. This is neither helpful to the fandom nor actually legal, but Warner Bros. can flex their wallets to impose a de-facto lockdown on their properties, because nobody involved can afford counterclaims. The American copyright and intellectual property laws are what are ruining the unfettered growth of most fandoms.
What about Batman tas and spawn?
“So, why did you make geek subculture mainstream?”
“Money!”
If you're going to reference/steal one of my videos, Wisecrack, at least make it one of the good ones!
I was surprised they used your audio but gave no credit.
I'm love with you
watch out boys it's the ceo of pop culture
Hey Adam! So sorry about that. We were pulling footage before our vacation in November and completely lapsed on double checking that we could use your video. We just linked to your channel in the video description - and we'll throw a card in the top right too!
Taro ruul asz 🙂
I always used to raise an eyebrow when I would play WoW and see other players calling each other nerds for liking WoW in the game.
That's a very interesting video. Disney has been caught using fan art in their own productions without giving credit. Years ago the TV show Glee used a song someone else performed without giving credit. It was a cover song, but that shouldn't matter. I think geek culture is still there, but it's changed. This may sound like a hipster, but there's IPs and media out there that hasn't been touched by megacorporations which has its fans. Go to a fan-run convention and you'll find it, geek culture in its original form - a niche market by fans for fans. The best example is filk, people singing songs about IPs and their fandom and other things in their spare time. It can't go mainstream because the target demographic is too narrow.
I think talking about Star Trek fans could have been a good opportunity to smash some other biases by pointing out that Trek-fic was originally mostly Kirk/Spock slash fic written by american housewives, and those women were integral in keeping Trek on the air when it was almost cancelled during one of its seminal seasons as well as starting some of the first conventions
I remember being bullied in high school for liking Star Trek TNG, times changed thank fuck.
Wrote my thesis on this very subject. Fan's desire for more content is a driving force behind the emergence of transmedia, a property's existence across multiple media (think Star Wars being connected though books, games, movies, etc). The big corporations failings is in their lack of ability to bring the audience to these other outlets. With these somewhat periphery brands becoming mainstream, big business tends to only think of mainstream, big budget media, when they could do more and at the same time please die-hard fans by using less traditional media (which are also cheaper).
That Asterix and Obelix cosplay at the end was dope AF
I was hoping someone would have acknowledged that
goddamn you wisecrack and your insightful commentary. where would I be without you.
No one would've predicted how Geeks and Geek Culture could impact media as we know it today. Interesting take they've done here.
Last time I got into a discussion about fandoms, it turned out that they are more problematic for corporations than it's presented in the studies. Most of toxic fandoms work as heretics or violent zealots damaging the industry and the livelyhoods of employees or artists.
I have this argument all the time about general audiences being prioritized over fans and everyone looks at me like i’m an entitled crazy person.
I agree. Same thing happens to me.
I grew up and still am left-wing or sometimes anarchist. I always thought gatekeeping was bad. But all this has taught me that gatekeeping is necessary to prevent the complete subsumption of the materials that fans love into corporate spam s**t. And you'll get labelled as evil if you try to "gatekeep"... by the people who are so brainwashed, dull and consumptive that they'll dump on the good content that BIRTHED the crap they now love.
Let's not even discuss "The Rings Of Power", even though that's the example that finally dragged the cockroach corporations and shills screaming into the light. I would even gatekeep myself out, be honest and say "not really my fight because I can't truly claim to be a LOTR fan". Because even though that's a valid fight, I still can't help but think "That's great guys and thanks, but where the f*** were you all when AppleTV and that a$$hole David Goyer f*cked Isaac Asimov's Foundation into a season of something that promotes THE DIAMETRIC OPPOSITE OF EVERYTHING THAT WAS EVER IMPORTANT TO ASIMOV'S WORKS?
So there it is. In order to keep content good, I have to cop to wanting to be one of those evil "gatekeepers"; labelled so by people who are too damn stupid to realise that they are soylent. And I don't just mean "soylent fodder for the corporations"; I mean "they're so self-and-other-destroyingly stupid they ought to be soylent, do the world a favour and throw themselves into the processing plant and thereby save a cow".
As a Navy vet that worked in Intel it makes me happy to know that geek my predecessors had a hand in this.
What gets me about fan vs corporate culture is that it's usually better for the company to keep a hands off approach to fan media. Basically let's say you make a fan game of a Nintendo IP, it's usually better for Nintendo to do nothing rather then send the dreaded cease and desist letter. Now in the case of Nintendo the opposite usually happens, but I think as a fan companies burn a lot of good will for the products when they attack fan content. Some companies get this, but many don't.
I don’t mind that there’s way more fans now. I actually can have casual conversations about marvel, Star Wars, and all the other stuff I’ve loved since I was a kid with friends and folks at work instead of having to discuss it in chat boards and at conventions where I’ve always been regarded as “less than” and had my fandom questioned and even mocked by so called “true fans” simply for not fitting whatever the old “geek” stereotype was. I either didn’t get to discuss the media I loved so much or I had to discuss it with people who weren’t very nice to me. And some of these “the normies ruined it” comments reek of the type of that exact attitude.
So spot on, and insightful as usual!
You know, this is very interesting line of question
Because I have indeed seen this new wave of fans that wants fandom to be a sanitized space - as "safe" as the original brand itself, as it was one and the same.
I'm from the time fandom was a back alley full of weird, kind of dirty, offbrand things that were AMAZING... or not. It was a gamble. But it was wild and free; And now people want this same sanitized, corporatized, extension of the marketing space working as a fandom and ugh, it's been killing me slowly.
And the new wave of fans are fighting us off as if we, the weird offbrand people are wrong! And if we should stop existing
I just wanted to be in weird in peace.
Please.
I'm not here to help corporations sell stuff, I just want to think out loud and draw some stuff.
Fans now have some say to the studio thanks to social media and ratings. Recently Netflix took Cowboy Bepop live action film out due to backlashes from fans of the original anime series. Truly a wonderful Xmas gift to preserve its timeless legacy for audience haven't discovered yet.
Edit: Nope. Its still there.
Its second season was canceled. And now they can't ruin the movie. 😀
Fandom has become a form of consumer democracy
and just like in regular democracy, corporations seek to coopt them to their own ends and reclaiming the power they wield.
Ironically enought alot of those Geeks especially during the 70s yo 90s became the one that brought geek culture to the mainstream in the 21st century look at people in for front of Comicbooks and their movies TV series in Fantasy and Scifi as well as Anime & Manga in Asian Media including video games think people like dave filoni and jon favreau who grewup with star wars and other thing considered nerdy if you look at most of those in the industry they we just fans of this stuff which lead them into creating their own stuff which will make a new geek culture for them and the cycle goes on it interesting cycle of renewing
Geek culturel = caring about the exterior aspect. Nerd culture = caring about the content
Yes geek culture has now been mainstreamed , before the older you get it was frowned about and you were viewed as a nerd or geek but with social media the average person sees celebrities and other adults still enjoying fan fic and thus it is now accepted to be in those fandoms as adult . All the younger generations are seeing this and will continue to make geek culture the standards
Big Bang theory doesn't represent geek culture. It's a flawed sitcom with an insulting geek facade.
It's funny how the same thing I was bullied for in school is now praised as cool and interesting. Good old times of people grabbing our character sheets and ripping it in pieces and throwing in the trash while calling us losers.
Great coverage though this is my first time to view/read about geek culture as a "scholarly subject" I have been living geekily since reading my first comic about 40++ years ago. I wonder if it would've helped to add a formal definition (and maybe a table) of geek vs non geek vs nerd (behavior/attributes). I myself have consumed a lot and occasionally commented/criticized either to praise or point out flaws in movies/books/comics that I've read/viewed. My quick answer is geekdom will not die it will just evolve as it has already evolved since it's early beginnings in the Victorian era. Currently it is much more mainstream & overt than it used to be but I doubt it will actually became the majority. Whatever the final penetration.rate will be it's clear that geekdom will excel in leveraging technology to magnify their collective or individual voices. And geekdom itself will factionalise (fractionalize?) along certain dimensions. Like there will be one faction that will love anything & anything with a Star Wars label on it and some geeks will be far more picky and discriminating as what constitutes good to great Star Wars stuff, but both groups will be equally passionate & vocal about their preferences. 😎
Take heart everyone! Anyone who watches and supports channels like theses are true geeks.
I honestly don't care much whether a fandom is more in the hands of the geek subculture or ruled by corporations who want to squeeze money from it. As an avid consumer of stories, I expect quality, no matter where it comes from. The trouble with big productions is that by being followed by many more fans than your average fanfiction and therefore there will be a massive backlash when fans can't agree, in particular since many mistake "I don't like / understand this" with "It's badly made"...
Depends on what you classify as a "geek culture". A Harry Potter fan is very different from a Potterhead. For example, Kpop stans are not considered part of mainstream geek culture, but they are very much a fandom.
Corporate greed does not drive organic fan interaction because there is a difference between consuming media and engaging with it. Dedicated fans will always create their own content: theories, memes, videos, music, parody, merch, etc.
I predict the rise of a fandom subculture based around IP that is explicitly public - the IP is by design free to use.
Yes we do exist
I really don’t think geek culture vanished as much as fandom expanded. Geeks will drift into different IP , while fans will stick to one. A jock is a person is is passionate about many sports or physicality itself , while perhaps not a fan of a single sport to memorize stats of a factorite team.
Jocks are sports geeks.
What channel does the SC2 clip @ 0:57 belong to?
Ya I agree with your points in this video, basically they want our money but they still don't respect what the fans want. Case in point- Star Wars.
Has there ever been a forest? Is the playground really fenced in?
@@MRCKify actually it is, these types tend to sue when you make your own.
@@yomamawanmadikku9094 Name a case, please. I'm starting to get suspicious of any metaphors.
@@MRCKify you ever seen those fan projects that get really far then all a sudden the company sees the fans having fun without a tax, so they gotta come in with the elves
@@yomamawanmadikku9094 So you're thinking like abridged animation and content-stuck videos here on YT?
We hold what they want: our money. Without respect, we must reject. If they make crap, we must ignore it. If corporate geekdom fades, let it die; we will return and make our own, as it was in the past. We are the geeks and the nerds. We hold the power.
😂
I do think fandom can still stand on its own too. Fandom is the reason Young Justice got brought back and still exists. That being said, in other ways yes it becomes corporate but that balance is still there. I don’t think they’re overtaking each other at all.
Geek culture is the R&D department for the entertainment industry to see what kind of baubles they can sell without embarrasing the prospective buyer seeing how the concept of a Nerd is still something to look down on.
Case in point : The "Joke" at the end about shoving Nerds.
The same way we remember the 60’s with hippies despite most people not fitting that stereotype, i think when people remember the 2010’s years from now the stereotype will be “nerds”
I would say. Geekdom still exist because even when corporations get their hands on most IPs that we love they tend to mess it up anyway and we have to go back to the source material anyway. Think about this recent Cowboy Bebop situation and Netflix or the entire DCEU and Warner Brothers. The fans who enjoyed the source material know that's usually the best place to go for us in order to enjoy these things when Hollywood turn them into something completely different or can't connect with the core fan base.
LMAOOO I WAS WATCHING BIG BANG THEORY WHEN THIS NOTIFICATION APPEARED
While I agree that corporations now play a massive part in geek culture, have things really changed that much? I'm legitimately asking. Notably, a lot of geek culture that was popular in the late 70s, 80s, and 90s, is still popular now. And even back then, DC would let you dress up as Batman any day of the week but wouldn't let you nationally publish and sell your fanfic. Trade shows were much smaller back then but many of the corporations/creators still showed up. So has that much really changed other than the obvious merchandising?
I think you have a point, although what has changed in my opinion is that now it's mega corporations like Disney, Netflix, Universal. So more and more of what we consume is owned by less and less corporations.
i heard a kid died and the parent couldnt put spiderman on his tomb even tho thats what he wanted
I think it doesn't matter if it's mainstream... fans are still fans. They're not fans specifically to be "counter culture" (never mind the ridiculousness of being anti-mainstream for the sake of trying to be different rather than just being yourself regardless of whether or not it's different from mainstream; or being different for the sake of being different is stupid), and they still do all the same stuff they did before, they're just more accepted, but I don't think being "not mainstream" has anything to do with it.
I also think there's some conflation between "fandom" and "fanboyism" here. There's very much still "dorks" who make their whole identity about being a fan of X thing, complete with ridiculous gatekeeping, pointing out technical flaws that don't matter ("omg 0/10, they parted X sub character's hair on the left when it should be on the right, whole thing is ruined now!"), etc.
Regardless, I don't think geek and fandom were purposely counter-culture, they just HAPPENED to be counter-culture, and anything about counter culture or not is irrelevant.
Think it all depends on the folks around you. I waited in line outside BestBuy for the store to open during Metroid Dread's launch and proudly wore my old Metroid Zero Mission shirt. Two young ladies who walked me whispered to themselves saying I was a `dork` while the other males waiting in line thought me showing off my fandom was very cool; one guy even high-fived me.
Wow, extremely relevant considering what Toei is putting Totally Not Mark through right now.
No more geek culture, no more punk culture, no more skate culture, no more ethenic culture, no more gay culture. It has all been tossed in the corporate blender pulverized spun twisted and blandified all meaning and goodness reduced to make a product to consume.
I was just thinking of punk. That was co-opted almost immediately.
Look at the Fandom Menace. Big corps can try to herd the fans to where they think they should go, but fans can reject not only this force towards a particular direction, but the very source product itself if the Corp tries to force something the fans absolutely do not want.
My gut says this here video can offer a glimpse of the positive evolution which (if the status quo were less resistant) the music industry COULD undertake. Two things which will always remain true in music, the most authentic artists are fans first-and Authenticity shines.
SIX SEASONS AND A MOVIE!!!!!!
I think at the end of the day, it boils down to "How does this serve ME?" I'm fully aware that being an obsessive fan (and a toy collector) means that I'm susceptible to being swayed by others taking advantage of my fandom so I tend to ask myself what does this do to enrich my own life. I have an Iron Man statue on my desk because I admired how Tony Stark runs his own business, not that because he shoots repulser beams. Nowadays I collect Batman toys as reminders and a physical manifestation of Batman's virtues, which also means I'm extremely selective of which Batman toy I buy (sorry Ben Affleck). To me, my fandom and my purchases has to has make me strive to do more in life. I know fellow Bat-fans that would buy anything and everything companies throw at them, and while that's cool, I think I can't afford the indigence because it's a difficult hole to get myself out of.
Can't help but to think about all the fan projects Nintendo has shut down over the years while watching this.
I think there are a lot of people into it because its become popularized in the media and presented to them in a way that they wouldn't view as silly or be apprehensive about accepting. Once its over they move onto something else. Will it garner longtime fans? Of course, but my brother is a good example he was super into Harry Potter when the movies came out, had bought a shit ton of merchandise and stuff to show how much of a fan he was and then once the movies ended most of that stuff ended up in the dumpster, the MCU brough that about for him as well. Im not saying this is the norm, but I feel most people are into popular stuff on a surface level, its something to talk about and current, but it fades, not for everyone, but I see it in people all the time. However that may just be a particular franchise they just aren't as heavily into. I mean I know guy who has been obsessed with Dune and Halo since their inception. I think its suffers become corporatization and is more about consumer culture then geek culture.
As a nerd who was ostracised as a child & lived in geek culture for about 30 years... I'd say Geek Culture died with "The Big Bang Theory" TV show. When a person who bullied you as a kid is now as an adult is telling you how much he loves Spider-man after years of picking on you for the same, you know Geek Culture is dead! It's first wounds came in the mid 90's with the rise of the PlayStation, took a massive hit with The Dark Knight movie & The Big Bang Theory put it in it's grave! The subculture is now THE Culture & I've had to find a new niche in B&W era comedy films.
I know what you mean
TLDW: Geek Culture is most likely still alive and well and Disney is definitely exploiting it.
Fandom is so important that Star Wars as a franchise is still alive. After a trilogy of two good movies (the original). A prequel of only one good movie (Ep. III) and a sequel with no good movie, what is keeping Star Wars alive is fandom.
Hey hey, Episode II had the "i dont like sand" and "i love democracy" memes!!1111
Yea the franchise has way more bad movies than good
Good...??? Ep 4 is barely entertaining... and is the best of the bunch... i am convinced that people watches movies with their eyes connected to their stomaches and not to their brains...
Good point. Bad build up
Yeah I hate gatekeeping, which is endemic in Fandom and geek culture, but maybe the reason beyond the individulisation is that the individualism gives you solitude. You cannot but physically in the public sphere to be judged, which great, you feel comfortable in private to like what you like. But there are those of us who DID do it publicly back when it was to be shamed, and THAT is where that true community is built. I wouldn't have made it through high school without my weirdo geek friends :)
hey @wisecrack why isn't Adam / AoG credited for the clip you've taken from their starcraft vid?
The way I see it is as a queer person of color. I think the way those parts of my cultural background interact with capitalism is very similar to how artists and their output gets caught up in big business. Corporations come in and see my cultures as an opportunity to feign awareness and respect of my background, but at the end of the day, it's a cash grab. Wokenomics, plain and simple. Similarly geek culture is very much alive in the same way, just slightly more bastardized in the mainstream eye thanks to corporate marketing.
For that reason, I'm the type to bootleg everything. Especially from places like Netflix, Disney, and any other large company. With how they've treated fandoms and geek cultures (it's not one culture but many), I don't believe that they deserve a single dime from me.
when we are all fans no one is
The saddest thing for me about all this is that many of these works originally contained critiques of social issues and adressed very complex ideas in a way more digestable to a wide audience (democracy, religious zealotry, marginalization of minorities, ecological issues). nowadays it feels like films, tv shows, etc, are complicit in those very same issues if not straight up participating in them and causing harm for profits.
I think most people are only interested in it from a surface level (casuals). Its still the geeks that are analyzing everything down to the bone.
Geek culture is plenty alive in the niches and extremes of fandom. You can go on places like 4chan right now, and find expressions of fandom that will likely never be mainstream. The problem is, you probably wouldn't like them or want to be associated with them. Just like it used to be with what is now mainstream geek culture.
1966?? What about 3 years earlier when Dr Who first graced our screens! 😅
I honestly love the direction Wisecrack has taken these past 1-2 years or so. There is so much more awareness of your own position within the internet and pop culture. Topics are more interconnected than before. Keep up the great work!
9:24 - as a terminally online young adult in the year 2021, I couldn't agree more.
I'm staff at a Transformers convention this weekend in Ontario (Canada)! It's the best group of people!
This is the most generous interpretation of Fanfiction i've seen.
I don't want to assert any weird authority here, but most fanfics I have read have all just been narcissistic, horny indulgences.
I think some people just wanna get to know themselves better through stuff that's not necessarily reality, ie art. Processing their most pressing issues, powerful feelings, concepts etc. Asking themselves "why do _I_ want this to happen? why do _I_ want this character to do that?" in order to progress with their story. Seeing it as you're _learning about yourself_ as you go. Not so much focused on actually communicating their findings so that the reader can learn too.
Another kind of writer, not less "narcissistic" than the other, enjoy staying to the canon and making it their mission to double check every detail and ask themselves "would that character _really_ do that, though? Isn't that just what I _want_ them to do?" In order to move the story forward. Learning _about the source_ as they go.
If that's their jam, or if they want to show appreciation by religiously staying true to "the book" and "the creator" makes them a devoted follower of somebody else's fantasies or somebody that values the community's expectations higher than their own business.
Then you have the third kind, one that doesn't write nor read, but judge others for doing so. They have no backlog to feel embarrased over and don't like to "indulge" in themselves or art because it invokes too many negative feelings. They see it as something "dirty." Learning about "what not to do because I'll hate myself for it and everybody else will too" as you go.
A living, breathing person is rarely just one of these. However much we would like that to be the case.
Narcissistic isn't what comes to mind for any of these, though. More a natural self centeredness and natural bias that, when viewed by others, becomes "narcissistic" as it doesn't align with a) their fantasies or biases that naturally taint their interpretation of the original source material or b) doesn't align with "the truth" which they think is above the fans and not something to be interfered with.
@@hippieduck But why publish horny Inuyasha fanfiction when the author disclaims that they haven't actually read the series?
If it's just for self-exploration and using IP you didn't create why, uh, think yourself a genuine author/publisher?
That's like posting your dream journal online
@Obiwancolenobi Why they chose to publish their work remains a mystery for me too. Maybe it's a way to connect - sharing your imagined world with others to imagine. That's just being a writer though. The characters are borrowed and that doesn't translate well. Suppose they aren't worried about that, to really think it through. Most "mindless" fanfiction in this self exploration side of things are often people who have a need for processing stuff.
Ramblings;
Can for sure be seen as selfish or disrespectful to somebody else's art (or even a community) but in the end that's kinda working against our psychology to favor "the greater good" or "the source" that really don't suffer from people mentally borrowing from what's around them to explore their inner lives ie creativity. It can be annoying or even hateful depending on what emotions come closest when somebody seemingly don't give a hoot about what you give a hoot about but still use it for their own sake.
Artists usually want their art to move and engage people, but then there's the issue of losing control of their creations because of just that. This happens in communities as well; "their" art is no longer just one thing but other people's interpretations of it. It comes down to personal taste and opinions. Ultimately, the thing they "know" and love is being misunderstood, taken for granted, and used, and that can be frustrating. But is that emotion good enough reason to stop others from creating? Or is it a sign to move away from fan creations to fully focus on your personal interpretation and yourself? Would that be seen as self-absorbed if there's no community involved? I digress...
*I really like your username, btw. lol
Netflix once made a reddit post asking for fan finctions for undisclosed reasons. Nothing ever came of it
I find it almost obvious that both sides are right. Corporations limit fan creativity, sure, but parody and commentary are not forbidden, so fans still put some pressure on the creators. Too many errors and fan criticism may keep people from buying. Then a fan version or recut might make you look bad. And popular fan UA-camrs may badmouth your whole shtick.
A good example may be Star Wars: While the new movies made a lot of money, they made progressively less in part due to scathing criticism by fans. I didn't even watch episode 9, because it didn't do right by the source material. How did I know? Well, fans are more well-connected than ever before. There was a deluge of commentary, parody, etc. Screen Rant's Pitch Meeting series comes to mind. They're quick about it and so you know quickly when Hollywood shat the bed once more.
WOO! POSTED 9 SECONDS AGO!
Hey, Wisecrack, I highly recommend you investigate the furry fandom as a noticeable contrast to everything you've described. The furry fandom is a tight-knit DIY community with no overarching or shared lore or canon, and there have been fierce debates within the community about the extent to which furries should welcome or tolerate potentially being co-opted by the corporations and the mainstream.
Anywho, because geek is now chic, I've often pondered who the real "nerds" are now. Thanks in large part to the Internet, it seems like practically everybody can find their particular community or niche these days, and no hobbyist or interest group (that I'm aware of) is uniquely singled out by the mob anymore merely for liking the wrong thing, unless that thing is perceived as "problematic," toxic, or harmful. There are people who resent or hate certain fandoms or groups, absolutely, and rivalries between fandoms, sure, but "Let's point and laugh at the losers who enjoy _____" really doesn't seem to be part of the larger cultural zeitgeist anymore, and is often actively discouraged. Is my finger on the pulse here?
Pfft every fandom has toxicity, that leads to those individuals being singled out because they are bad people. Used to be a thing whole fandoms could strain under and some people still grow jaded over fandoms when they are met with the loud minority, but it's often a problem that drowns itself now.
Yeah, you're totally right. I feel like the insularity and decentralization of the furry community is both its strength and its weakness. It's really interesting.
@@insaincaldo , oh, every fandom absolutely has its share of toxicity, and I think some have handled that better at different points in history than have others. It's basically inevitable that once you get human beings together, you'll get "drama." It's also true that the "drama" and toxicity can cause a lot of genuine hurt and harm, and cause people to become jaded.
@@LimeyLassen , oh, absolutely! The fandom's traditional tolerance and openness is also simultaneously a strength and a weakness.
no lol, corporate didn't change what it means to be a "fan".
it DID change the volume and direction of the IPs we are fans of though...
3:46 that's not Star Wars or Star Trek. That's Dirty Pair. A light novel from the 80's that inspired the Dirty Pair manga and anime
(Wait, was that a geek trap???)
Toward your discussion question, I think the answer is yes. Look at the reaction online to something like the Star Wars sequels. Some people complained, then a bunch of other people attacked those with complaints as being toxic fans. We now speak of toxic fandoms as if the fandoms are a toxic community, but there is no community to speak of. At this point none of us are fans anymore, we're just consumers and the stories are the product. As consumers the only way we can steer the direction of the franchises we like is by voicing our displeasure and bringing down the value of the product. The people who make these stories only respond to financial pressures. While it certainly sucks when actors' Twitter accounts become the victim in these "toxic" campaigns (and I certainly don't encourage people to make these things personal), I think once you understand that all these story creators are just capitalists using the labor of their "fans" it makes more sense why people lash out at the shitty products we've been getting.
Hoooooly shit! Fucking this!
You guys completely aced what I tried and kinda failed to adress in a methodology of research class protect like 4 years ago lol
I like to say that when I was in high school I was a loser for liking anime. And now when I’m in my mid to late 20s I’m not cool enough to like anime