Creating My Very First Tabletop Game
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- Опубліковано 4 лип 2024
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here we goooooo!
First thing I thought when this video started: "Scott needs to talk to Trent." 🥳
Making a game is a great way to make a UA-cam channel suffer. Not that I'd know anything about that. BUT it's also very satisfying and fun.
Selfishly, I'm glad you made a game anyway. ;)
You should get a new water cup. That old one is getting gross 🤢
I thought it was a fantastic series. The terrain, the lore, and stuff was amazing!
this
I loved ur series . This would be great for Scott. He , like u, has so much passion for it .
It jumps out as u talk about it
I used to teach tabletop game design as a college course. My biggest bit of advice to my students was to follow the fun, feedback, and embrace change when it works.
I'd say there is one thing that is even more important then that:
Make a playable prototype as fast as you can, without carrying if it's beautiful. Put the game to play as soon as posible, so that you can see what works and what don't in order to avoid wastiting time and effort into something that will later be changed or removed.
Fail fast, fail better.
Favorite part of the video: Scott asking people to let him know if he's being wrong on the internet as if we wouldn't do that anyway.
One way to address the melee fighters sticking issue is to have push mechanics, so attacks always knock each other away. Then you could utilize the terrain in interesting ways to deal more damage or add other effects. Good luck with the design process!
That could also help with the melee v. Ranged issue, with melee weapons have more pushback which could have little or none.
You should check out Unmatched for a tight 1v1 / 2v2 pvp game that seems to tick a lot of the boxes you're looking for! (competitive, quick, one model per person, super low barrier of entry, excellent gameplay, ... )
Agree! Unmatched was the first game I thought of.
I haven't played it yet, but I also thought of Unmatched based on what I've read about it. It's on my list of games to get.
@@spenserhardenno need now😊
We can give our input here and watch this game getting made and finally play the game we watched being built...its going to be epic and I dont overuse that word
I definitely echo these comments about Unmatched as checking a lot of the boxes you’re looking for, Scott. Unmatched is 1v1, quick, easy to learn with beautiful artwork and lots of replay ability. A lot of folks in my area gravitate towards it. Good luck on this project!
Definitely thought of unmatched too
A dueling game I absolutely love is Unmatched - each fighter has a unique ability and unique deck with some shared cards between characters. I find it generally captures the *feel* of each fighter really really well!
Yes came here to say this! Unmatched is awesome!
EXACTLY the game I was thinking of when he was talking about his wishlist.
I would also piggyback on this and suggest, if you want to pull back on RNG elements another way to add uncertainty to the game, *bluffing* can be a really interesting mechanic to add to games. And this can range from resources that are blind bluffed in something like opposing attacks. OR movement bluffs, which, if I remember correctly are included in X-Wing.
Also! If you end up trying out unmatched, I would suggest one of the starter kits but then also picking up one of the wacky expansions that has something like the Jurassic Park T. rex vs Dr Satler.
It’s a good example of building a game that gives you a list of space to design. One of the things that can happen when striving for a simple game is you shrink your design space.
Think of like, the D6s in 40k. While those are great and simple rules and acquisition. You’re now stuck with all of your ranges are chunked into 17%s. And now if you make something with too many pluses to defense, as an example, you may create someone who is now untouchable by certain opponents.
@@Lavasioth Yeah, I think a bluffing system could work well for parries (perhaps similar to the weighted rock/paper/scissors melee in moonstone)
Yup... that's a suggestion I was about to make as well.
Hey Scott, when you said that you wanted to make a dueling game, the first thing that came to MY mind was Flesh and Blood. While I have little to no experience with the game, it's a TCG that it is centered around you picking a character and suiting them up with armor, weapons and other things. it might be similar enough that you can adapt your game similarly. Hope this helps!
He plays flesh and blood, mentioned it in the podcast a couple times. Good eye.
Lol I didn't even know he mentioned it or that he plays it
Flesh and Blood is amazing inspiration so a great recommendation! I'll be talking about what I love about it in a future episode for sure!
FaBs design is so cool, especially the hand and blocking mechanics
@@MiniacPlease talk about Flesh and Blood. It’s the best table top experience I’ve had through years of competitive card and war games. It’s beautiful in its design.
This is a board game but its a 1 v 1 fighting game, its called BattleCON: War of Indines. It uses cards to create the attacks and movements of the players fighter, the best part (imo) is you use 2 cards to create different "combos" of attacks. Not sure if this is the route you are looking for or not but maybe it could give some inspiration. Great video cant wait to see what you come up with!
Seconded. One of the best iterations of a 1v1 combat/Street Fighter experience
This! BattleCON could be a great game to look at for ideas.
I'd highly recommend scrolling through GDC talks - theres a lot of them that can be applied to games in general, not just video games. There was a really good one about lessons learned from working on magic the gathering for 20 years. Also I look forward to anything you do, I've got an idea of my own I've been slowly working on in my free time so it'll be neat to watch/compare to whatever comes out of this
Arena Rex, while not 1 v 1, definitely captures the excitement and smaller scale, individual choices, interaction with the environment, and cohesion you mentioned
Came here to say exactly this
Indeed.
"The Rule of Canage" is a is podcast dedicated to designing better miniatures games. I highly recommend it.
Also, Guerrilla Miniatures Games had a podcast which was a little more freeform but was conversations with independent game designers. Definitely worth while to check out too.
Please leave your game recommendations, thoughts, game dev resources in the comments!
I believe that Conquest First Blood checks quite some boxes and you might wanna look into it
wish you best of luck with your plans eitherway :)
Hi! I'm about to publish a baord game with a professional team of editors and publishers, I also co-wrote a TTRPG as part of a professional designer college thesis.
I consider your current ideas nice, like you are in a good path, the biggest problem I see is that baord games that rely on miniatures are usually super expensive, so you will struggle to find a publisher unless you do it yourself (kickstarter?).
Some golden rules of game design are: fail fast (test as soon as you can), kill your darlings (don't get attached to certain rules that may pull the game down) and keep testing (blind test specially for someone with an audience, you don't want your fans feelings stop or bend the feedback).
Some sources I recommend:
"The Art of Game Design by Jesse Schell" (I consider this a 101 of game design)
Both Stonemmaier and Adam in Wales are published game designers with youtube channels with a lot of advice
I also recommend browsing through the Board Game Geek "2 player" tag and see what comes up
Megaman battle network might be worth a look. Limited movement. Fast and competitive 1vs1.
Grid based ranges might help with melee Vs ranged
You've pretty much described an Unmatched series game. 1v1 game with single miniature of a character with special abilities, described with cards and tokens.
This undertaking sounds promising. You have a vision and I am interested in seeing it come to fruition since your vision for this game sounds like something right up my alley!
I would recommend looking up GWs "Gorechosen" (2016) if you have not already. Might give you some ideas/inspiration.
Mage Wars, is a great mage vs mage board game. the mages do summon underlings so it isn't strictly speaking 1v1 but its in the same arena. each mage has a "spell book" that has all their cards. it sort of functions like if you were holding your whole magic the gathering deck in your hand.
Freaking love mage wars! Only problem with the game is the sheer amount of mechanics present makes teaching others the game a marathon.
@@HonageMaximus agree and absolutely love the game but people run from it because it is a beast to learn
"What if you controlled just one dude instead of an army" is literally the question that made Dave Arneson come up with Blackmoor. Some people know it as Dungeons and Dragons these days :)
I mean no disrespect with that comment. I think Scott is onto something really cool here and I myself cannot wait to see where it goes!
Ugh, FINALLY!
THIS was the content I have been looking for, for years.
I had a few immediate ideas, all of which I hope support the four things on your wishlist:
I think it'd be really interesting if your game rules made movement and positioning the key mechanics that all of the others center around. The distance you are to your opponent, and at what angle you are attacking them changes the effects of your attacks/abilities. If I'm 2 inches away and behind them, I do an extra bit of damage, but if they can keep me close to them, their abilities give them the advantage because their attacks are more close quarters centric. A character's abilities might/should also include ways to move either themselves *and/or their opponent*. I could just move backward to get my 2 inch bonus, or I could shove them away (possibly into some terrain that deals damage).
I think another way to make moving someone else's character interesting could be that the actual angles that the characters are facing. Each model has to designate a facing direction, and abilities use that direction for special moves (one of my abilities is a 2 inch cone that hits everything North West, North, and North East of my models "face", and one of theirs is straight North charge of 5 inches). A character can have abilities to rotate their opponent around them or rotate themselves around their opponent. Maybe there is even room for optional rules to use a hex grid. I think these movement and positioning rules might be able to bring the "excellent gameplay".
I've talked a lot about abilities. I think this where we get "competitive" and "fast". I think it'd be really cool if each player could sort of "build" their character before a duel, very much like you might build an army or pick special rules for some games. I think there can be some system for picking from a set of abilities to create specialized builds. Lots of opportunities for interesting combinations and countering the abilities of opponent characters. As I'm describing this, I'm starting to think it sounds a lot like a battle arena style video game with hero builds. Maybe you take some inspiration there and even have a system of alternating ability choosing/banning.
The "fast" part of the above comes with the notion that, during play, it's probably going to become obvious pretty quickly who had the stronger build for that particular duel; one player just had the right set of chosen abilities that effectively and efficiently counter their opponent's. There's two inherent scenarios then: 1) the game ends quickly and the players get to play again, this time choosing a different set of abilities to try a new strategy or 2) the characters end up evenly matched, which is, effectively, going to make another form of fun where tactics and strategy prevail and prolong a close, unpredictable, and interesting duel.
Finally is "low barrier". What if there were no die rolls, no randomness at all? What if all you needed to play was the book, which had all rules, stats, and abilities necessary to play? What if the game was mini agnostic? If the abilities are written so as to be exact, with "perfect information", you allow a certain level of tactical thinking that can be very attractive. Not to mention you put yourself in league with some of the most revered "dueling" games in history: chess, go, . . . checkers, I guess. Wargamers are accustomed to a certainly level of inherent randomness from die rolls, so I don't see this absolutely necessary, but worth considering I think. It would certainly help in keeping the barrier of entry low: all you need is the book, a piece of paper like a RPG character sheet to keep track of your chosen abilities, and maybe a tape measure that a lot of people, even non-wargamers, are going to have at least one of already (include a couple of cut outs or plastic rulers and cones in the back of the book or the box set if you're so inclined).
Anyways, these are my few ideas. Hopefully they reach you. This has really sparked my imagination, and I'd love to hear/talk more about it. I chat with Evan occasionally on the Once in a Six Side discord. Great vid!
Movement is key, without the gameplay need to move your figure around it being a miniature game is fundamentally obviated. That would just be a card game.
For example an attack should require your figure is in a given location relative to your opponent but then force you into a new location at it conclusion. Forcing the players into movement dance. Move and counter move representative in both figures movement not just the word the player exchange. Given your goal of creating a fast game it is worth considering having the field of play be a grid or checkerboard so people aren’t constantly reaching for a tape measure.
The closest thing I feel I have played to something like this would be Inquisitor?? it's an old, discontinued Warhammer 40k game with the big 75mm models and you can have more than one character each but for the most part, the way we used to play it was everyone had 1 dude and you played things out RPG style but with tabletop wargame kind of rules. You likely already know about it but there you are.
In the card game world there is the new Flesh & Blood game that is centered around players being a hero and your cards are your weapons, techniques, relics, attacks etc.
Either way this is exciting. As someone already in the mini wargaming community anything that has a low upfront cost, like buying 1 model and you're set? sounds great.
I've heard of Inquisitor, but never tried it out! maybe I'll pick up an old copy of the rules to see how they did things back then. Flesh & Blood is great and I'll definitely be talking about it in future episodes because it gets a lot of things right for me.
@@Miniac Sweet! yeah Inquisitor was like...DnD meets Wargaming? you could play it purely as a game but having characters with backstories and reasons for being there, full campaigns was very possible an intended, I think.
I absolutely loved it when I played it and it led to some really fun scenarios. I remember in particular I had a mad Russian Chef Imperial Guardsman who carried all the explosives, trying to jump from one rooftop to the other having just armed a mine, he failed, grated his face down the side of the building and hit the bottom. At which point the mine went off and set off all the missiles he was carrying and everything around him was turned to dust and we were laughing our asses off at how badly it went.
I'd think you're aiming for a more narrow gaming experience though? dueling specifically definitely sounds as much. Maybe even having very limited movement and it more be about specific moves, resources etc that you play through.
I'm rambling now, great to see how you progress with this! I'm not sure if you'd be able to but try to find someone who has played Inquisitor and maybe run through a game on TTS or something? the actual experience is often different to just reading the rules.
What a hype video series, I want episode 2 NOW.
I'd recommend trying Aristeia! by Corvus Belli - it's a moba-like board game, centred around heroes with unique abilities, so it might provide some handy reference.
The best game, that no one plays
BUT should
First comment because there will probably be a few. Scott, YOU’RE ON FIRE. The animation you have in this video as you noodle on game design is PALPABLE and I haven’t seen that passion from you for the past few videos. It’s really fun to see again! Thanks for bringing us along for this thought ride, and PLEASE PLEASE continue to do these entertaining and pro edited VLOGs on this topic. I’m going to bet that a lot of your audience has played around with the idea of designing a game (or even tried) in the past and would love to watch your process. I know I have! Cheers, fellow Minnesotan!
Not quite what you're after, but you should definitely check out the melee mechanics for Moonstone. They are really unique and designed to feel like medieval sword fighting.
Unmatched is a great 1v1 game, great art, simple rules, fast to play (and explain).
Love the idea. As an avid (albeit middling) fighting video game player (Tekken, Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, etc.), I love the feeling of a 1v1. The fast pace. Trading "moments" of advantage and disadvantage. Punishing mistakes. Mastering spacing and match-ups. Character variety. Fighting style variety. Conquering combos. Whaky lore. All of it is so rewarding. I absolutely see these elements as transferable to the tabletop. A duelling game would definitely require a unique approach, but I think there are many games out there that could be a feast of game design inspo.
This sounds amazing and definitely fills a niche - you could maybe check out something like the Street Fighter miniature game, it's a ton of fun and does the 1v1 (and even more players) really well!
It handles the melee v melee well by adding things like throws, knockback etc to keep things moving around the map and crashing into terrain etc
It has counterattacks, to always give both players something to do and think about
I think there is a ton you could probably pick out to think about for your own - very excited for this series!
Having flex for additional players was the first thing that came to mind for me. I would play 1v1 on occasion, but if we could field 4 to 6 players, I’m playing a lot more often. Looking forward to seeing more of the development.
Some thoughts- make sure the combat mechanic is simultaneous, damage is applied at the end of the turn not player round. Mechanics around players being able to control environmental factors, terrain etc can move locked combatants away and effect ranged combat. “Army building” could be equipment purchased and interact differently with certain combinations and both to the owner and against the opponents equipment. For very low figure counts maybe have wound charts for body location and damage to weapons. Let me know if you want any help/guidance with this 😊
Some things you might be interested in for small combat is--
1.) Card games such as yogioh, hearthstone, Legends of Runeterra etc. This could come into play with magic cards, traps, armor, small buffs, condition that last one round, ect.
2.) In some MOBAs like smite, have joust a small 3v3 game with only one lane to worry about. I think something simular like having 3-5 home bases for the enemy to capture could be fun
3.) Not exactly 1v1 but maybe later down the line a tag in system, like in fighting games could be cool
4.) One of my favorite things in unique character games is fun abilities and ultimates like in overwatch, Dota, apex legends, ect.
I love the content and hope you find one idea helpful, I'm making a game too and it is verry fun but can be challenging at times.
I love this idea! One thing is consider it's that with many wargames the defender doesn't have a ton of agency. Defense is often a static stat that the attacker is doing things to overcome. This makes sense, because if you turn every combat into a mini MtG game it'd last for days.
Contrast that to something like a dueling card game or fighting video game where the defender is as actively involved as the attacker. Sometimes it's almost impossible to tell who's even on the offensive and the defensive. I think sometime like that would be really cool, vs just taking turns punching each other in the face until someone gives up.
Definitely feels like a miniature fighting game which would be sweet if you can pull it off. Also feels a bit like dota 1v1 mid. I can absolutely say that I'm interested and will be following. Any excuse to use my 75mm figures in a game is welcome!
Relating it to that 1v1 mid experience is pretty on point!
@@Miniacave you heard about mini/board game guards of Atlantis 2? Some great ideas there as well. It’s a moba board game (with minis). Pulls it off well.
@@Miniac Having some kind of "tower" objective per player gives people a reason to move rather than just meet in the middle, could be worth considering. It could create interesting gameplay if they do damage, just like a tower (or it might just slow things down).
When you talked about how do you add in Wizards, rangers, etc to a duel It made me think of Flesh and Blood TCG. I recommend grabbing a few blitz decks to try it out might give you ideas.
Edit: last thought, modular options for the heroes will allow for more design space
Sounds exciting! Looking forward to the rest of the series.
Ive developed 2 games that i have published. My biggest recomendations are play test for 3x as many times as you rhink is to many. Hire a profesional editor for the rule book. Once it is edited hand it to people and watch them figure out how to play. If it takes them longer than you want it might not be a game is difficult issue it might be a rule book layout issue.
This is easily one of my favorite videos of yours lately. Not to say the rest have lacked anything - this is just uniquely exciting to your TUP crowd. I can't wait for more details about the development. PS - if the name of this game isn't 'Loreless,' it's going to be a big miss. 🤣
So, because the game is 1v1, I feel like having it be just a single game lasting 30 minutes would be difficult to be compelling without some ‘cat-and-mouse’ gameplay loop. What if, instead, it was played in a match format, i.e. best 2 of 3? You could get a really tight and fast gameplay loop for a 15 minute single game and longer strategy for a match.
I've thought about this briefly but I fear that it'll make the whole experience take too long, but I need to actually start putting some rules down before we rule anything out
It’s a great video and I’m excited for you! Building a game sounds like a lot of fun! I’ll be watching this series for sure!
My suggestion was an idea that popped into my head to solve the idea of a duelist focused game where you want exciting movement and interesting choices.
My thought is that the environment needs to evolve/be dangerous, and require the attention of the players.
Lets say the arena is separated into just a few different zones. At any moment it could start falling apart, portions of it could be vanishing, crumbling around them, or suddenly become affected by weather or wild magic. The floor could literally become lava. Each area has a magic "core" you can interact with to either keep that area safe from wild energy, or tamper with it to help something specific to happen.
Then, Depending on your Duelist, each character might have certain immunities to weather, or might be able to take control on the rain with specific attacks. A mage uses an ice spell in a zone that was just flooded to create dangerous terrain or trap their opponent for a turn or so.
I think something like this could create an intricate dance of fighting, and having to disengage from their opponent to maintain order in the chaos around them, or potentially fall to the environment itself.
Random bonus idea for a theme.
You play as deities, this arena is where you go to settle your disputes. Each zone is invested with all powers that govern the universe, and will cause them to plane shift or have a random effect generated. The goal is to find the balance between fighting your opponent directly, and using your godly alignments to alter the reality around you to your advantage.
Example, a creation core will change its area into a random zone/effect in 3 turns. A god of the undead shadow steps over to the core while their opponent is distracted. Tampering with it so that it is much more likely to become a mass grave site. Allowing them resources to build a bone construct minion to help them turn the battle to their side.
My other hobby besides miniatures is video game development and design, I have a few recommendations based on my experience designing, implementing, and releasing projects.
1) Do not make your "Dream Game" as your first project. This would be like creating a current Miniac youtube video without having ever painted a mini or edited a video. You can see a lot of game dev youtubers persuing this goal and there are a lot of traps you can fall into when persuing a vision only, which is often what dream games are.
2) Be prolific. Nothing will help you make your next game more than having already made a game or mamy games. Go through the entire process of making a playable experience and getting feedback as quickly as possible. I found a lot of benefit from writing down one game idea a day in a journal, but make sure these are concepts for a game mechanic and not just visions and vibes. see if you can make 30 games in 30 days, or a game a week. Constraints are useful for the iteration process, so consider the smallest possible scope and then see how many unique concepts you can make within that box. Seeing all your shitty ideas on paper can help you see the negative space where the good ideas might be.
3) Start with the most important design decisions first. I see a lot of game dev youtubers building out open world systems and saying they will eventually get around to adding a combat mechanic. Designing a world or characters or factions is fun, but it does not make a game.If you are making a 1v1 game then consider making exactly 2 characters that can fight each other and build a vertical slice of your game from that. If you cannot make a fun experience with 2 characters, the work you put into designing all of the secondary and tertiary systems will not save the project. When analyzing other games, consider what the most essential elements are. You might like the variety in AoS most, but you can take that away and still have a playable experience.
I hope this helps, I would love to see game development done in a way that has a high chance of leading to completed projects, regardless of how perfect they are. Good luck!
I like that new format. I would totally watch it and follow it. Wish you the best in your game design. You have been a huge part of my growth along with Black Magic Craft, Miscast and many others.
Overall thank you for your channel and sharing your passion.
Soooooo excited to see this process
Interesting concept Scott. Looking forward to seeing how this develops over time.
This is awesome and I love to see people doing things that they are excited about and that are just a purely creative endeavor
For the dueling game, I like the idea! The first thought that immediately came to mind with two brawlers getting locked into combat over a center square was to maybe have multiple loadouts (like pokemon, but a single character model - Magnetized model bits?) with a "respawn" mechanic to introduce some form of rock-paper-scissors. On your turn you can opt to pull back (maybe having kept resources) to then come in with your strong counter and capture points/kill. Choosing a respawn may cost time/points/other to balance that choice. Another idea is that a deck of cards could act as your actions, allowing you to hold your strike for the larger counter, while you instead hunker down with defense cards.
All very vague ideas, but hopefully it's something to get the creative juices flowing!
Heck yeah, I'm here for it dude, can't wait!
YES , i would love this. deffo following this one! If it came to a kickstarter or something i'd definitely back that as well!
Oooh been looking forward to you tackling this idea for a while!
Awesome ideas- I love the plan.
That's metal AF. Excited for this Scott!
Woop Woop! Glad to have you here, Knarb.
Hell yeah Scott! I cannot wait to see what you come up with
Holy shit I love this idea SO MUCH! Can't wait to see what you come up with!
I'm pretty damn hyped for this series, great Idea Mr. Miniac!
Can't wait to see what this looks like.
This come's at an interesting time for me because i am working on trying to come up with my own game. I wanted to create and well i have plenty of idea's for Factions and lore and such. It's developing the rules that have tied me up a bit.
This helped inspire me further by seeing how you broke down each goal you want from the game. I already been trying to pull from my favorite games and in fact been spreading my gaming to try new games i may never have before to see what i like about them.
More of this content please. I would also hear about how your feelings about game design and rules changes as you go through the process. Does the process of making a game yourself change your perspective on games you've played already?
So, as far as game mechanics that I love one big thing is the way the turns work in Battletech/Alpha Strike is how both sides get to use all their units each turn and damage is dealt at the end of each round, so your biggest unit can shoot at least once even if you lose initiative.
Hey Scott! I love the idea and concept of a duel-kind of miniatures game as you describe. I would definitely go out and give it a try. However, a few things come to mind: 1- Someone else already tried and failed so... Lots of research. Games like Wizkids' Shadowrun Duels are a good example of what I'm trying to say: It was a very interesting and fresh concept: Collectable action figures, you only required one figure to play. The figure came packed with gear, dice, rules and measuring tape. Figures already assembled and painted I loved it! But it failed. The fact that you required just one figure and the scale (among some other things like licensing), kept those figures off the gaming tables and on discount shelves. Looking back at game mechanics, concept, marketing, studio administration and design of games like Heroclix, Elder Scrolls: Call To Arms, Wings Of Glory, Dust Tactics, At-43, Aristeia, Warmachine & Hordes, FFG's D&D Miniatures and Star Wars minis from the early 2000's, could help you in the process 2- Be prepare to sacrifice some of your original ideas. Along the way, different factors will force you to leave some of your game features on the drawing board. Maybe you realize that blind-boosters are the way to go. Maybe a deck of tactic cards packed with each miniature (like Warhammer Underworlds) would be more appealing to duel-like customers with experience in card games. Or maybe custom dice like Wizkids Dice Masters? Worst yet: The game is great but no miniatures, just cardboard, cards, tokens and dice. This could be a great thing if the game still has the DNA you want. 3- Talk to people in the industry, make connections (I'm sure you won't have a problem here). For advice and gaming history Uncle Atom comes to mind. Game legends like Paolo Parente, Graham Davey or Rick Priestly are very accessible and supportive. I'm looking forward to seeing how the game takes shape. I'm excited! And thank you for letting us be part of the process.
Yoooo! I'm very excited for this and especially with the team up with Trent! I love Miscast and love the way he approaches hobby projects with absolute reckless abandon, and I always love seeing other Aussies get a bit more screen time lol!
As far as 1v1 and out-the-box experiences go, I think a really good thing to look at would be Battletech Classic and Alpha Strike. When you first said "Duel" as a focus, the first thing I thought of was Classic Battletech, as it can be played as small at 1v1 and also really importantly has a barrier to entry of "do you have a computer to download the free core rules on?". Even if you're not interested in a grid-based system or sci-fi as a setting, it could be a really good thing to check out and take lessons from.
Alpha Strike is a bit of a different beast, but also one thats extremely worth looking at as a comparison to Battletech. Set in the same universe, using the same minis and with its own free core rules PDF. Differs mostly in that it's designed for larger, more 40K style combat with whole companies of Mechs and combined arms fighting each other as opposed to one single Lance or less. It's also free movement as opposed to hex-grid based like Classic.
I think both have some really interesting lessons and concepts you would find really engaging, and hey they both have a barrier to entry of $0 so why not? I personally think a hex-based Duel game where the faces of your base indicated where you could guard or not, or something has some real potential.
Fantastic mate, your opening statement is right on the money, you just managed to describe exactly why after 40 years of painting miniatures I don’t game. Especially the miniatures size, low barrier and playability.
Have been a long time viewer and I’m really looking forward to seeing this flesh out plus if you can follow your planned ideas it might be the first kickstarter I back.🐼👍
+1 for Unmatched here. The playstyles of each "character" feels genuinely unique and the IPs they've managed to obtain have given them a heck of a headstart. Want to pit Sherlock Holmes against the Raptors from Jurassic Park? Wonder who'd win if Deadpool fought Buffy the Vampire Slayer? Each character brings a new game to the table. That being said, I think having a set of characters from within the same universe would be awesome if that's what you're looking to do and I can't wait to hear more from this.
For 1v1 combat, there are 3 good ways that I see would prevent the 2 models meeting in the middle and never moving.
1. Give weapons optimum attack ranges, a spear would do better at 3 inches, a rogue armed with daggers would be trying to get into base contact. Infinity does a similar thing with its ranged weapons. Models can have ways to move themselves or the enemy back
2. Facings. Give each 75mm miniature 4 facings, using movement shenanigans and terrain etc. to try and get to the back and sides of your opponent
3. Terrain hazards. Give bonus for hitting enemies into or off of terrain. Spike pits in an arena come to mind. The two players can then try and move each other into these hazards.
hey man, do whatever you want but i followed your videos for quite a while and always loved the super positive energy especially in older videos. doesnt matter if you still like to paint or not find what you like and transport positivity- you are awesome at it.
My favorite part of the video something about " Beer and Pretzel " I do wish you the best in creating your game and don't let that fire in you die out. Thank you for sharing.
Friends Vs Friends is a super fast and goofy lil indie shooter with some interesting card mechanics and a very streamlined gameplay loop. Deathmatch, either single or duos, best of three team kills, and youve got a variety of different characters to play as, and a deck building element to really customize how you play.
I'm here for this!! Tabletop DevLog!!
I'm in the process of working on a game with Black Site Studios (Tempus Mortis) and I would highly recommend working with them in conceptualizing your ideas. Our game is a MOBA inspired hero focused miniatures game. We chose this theme as there isn't really anything on the market that resembles a MOBA tabletop game other than a handful of boardgames.
If you are trying to capture the Doom feel, then you need;
- badass monsters
- variety of monsters
- loot drops
- weapon pick ups
- frag points (first to XX frags wins)
- Badass heroes
- Badass theme
My next project will be a solo miniature game inspired by The Purge. :)
I have a Bachelors of Game Design and Development, this is a good idea. There's lots of small scale skirmish games out there that are really good. You have a good concept for an area battle game here.
My suggestion, regarding your terrain, release terrain pieces with each character. When setting up the games, deployment is not only the model, but also the terrain. Terrain wont just be LOS blockers and barriers, you can make terrain that buffs and debuffs the opponent, or you can make a dynamic terrain system that uses it for much of the strategy. That can create a very interesting system, that fixes your terrain scaling problem, will help profits, and would create something new and dynamic.
Yes I would buy it! (And probably every expansion as well.) Go for it mate!
There's a cool game I vaguely remember from the Commodore 64 days called Mail Order Monster. It was kind of a 1 v 1 duel game where you create a monster, then fight it against other monsters. After each match you could buy upgrades for your monster to make them more powerful. I remember it being really cool, but it's been a long time since I saw it, so I could be remembering wrong. But it would be cool to be able to change or upgrade your Duelist over time, so you aren't just playing the same model over and over.
I’ve never played a 1v1 tabletop game before, but I look forward to watching this iterative process unfold!
Good for you for taking the dive! A 1-v-1 duel game like you described has a lot of potential, even if it doesn't match my psychographic profile as a gamer. One of the concerns you mentioned is terrain. One of the things you might look into is affordable terrain dueling environment packs you sell yourself, or even include in the starter. MDF and papercraft terrain (like Battle Systems) is a solid option for man-made objects. For rocks, you can encourage players to just pick up appropriate-sized rocks from their backyard. Trees are more difficult, but it might be possible to include some cheap plastic trunks and branches and some foliage you can stick on. Failing that, you could just do 2d boards, but that is a little boring for mini wargaming enthusiasts, though board gamers won't mind.
I dig both this and your painting stuff. I think a 1v1 game sounds dope. I think, like you pointed out in the video, avoiding the "both minis move into the center and sit there" scenerio is gonna be big. Super stoked to see what you come up with!
For 1v1 duels, you might honestly want to look at competitive Quake or Unreal Tournament matches to get a sense of what can make so few moving parts so interesting to play. Other than just pure player skill expression, it comes down to the map design (and how well someone knows it) and what pickups are available on them - giving people a reason to move around to find more powerful weapons or securing a shield, knowing your opponent is going to want to do the same, constantly jockeying for position over key items and even entire avenues. I don't know how well it could translate to a tabletop game 1:1, but the core concepts at play are definitely worth examining.
Finally! Been waiting since you guys talked about it I’m Trapped Under Plastic.
Love the concept and can’t wait for the series. Funny that you mentioned miscast at the end, as I was watching the video I was thinking about how the style of the production/editing was reminiscent of his videos.
This is an interesting concept. I am relatively new to tabletop gaming, and I agree that the hardest part is getting your friends involved. Unless you supply them with an army, but then they have to want to spend 3-4 hours learning the game as well…..maybe a a duel that forces the two players to engage first, and then after a couple rounds have a “super” charged that does a knock back or stun. That puts the opponent down for a round or launches them. Making this more interesting you could have power ups places randomly on the field. During that odd time of not dueling, players could try to acquire the power ups and then if they are not back in the dueling circle in 3 rounds they take some sort of penalty. And if one of them is. They gain a victory point each round the pit is uncontested. Thanks for awesome videos!
I would love to support this whole heartedly
This sounds amazing
There was a format for warmahordes where you would "draft a caster" where you would draft the attributes (spells, focus, armor, HP, etc) for your caster. I think something similar to that as an optional format, perhaps with a starting archetype (rogue/mage/archer) would be really cool. Then the game could have multiple formats to choose from like constructed/draft.
Someone already recommended Mark Rosewatter's GDC talk on making MTG, that's a must watch.
Also Raph Koster's GDC talk titled "Practical Creativity" was a literal *game changer*, I rewatch it at least once every couple months.
More game-centered suggestions, having a large library of actions (possibly represented by cards, but not necessarily) will help fill the need for variety left by using only one mini. Consider making dash attacks, dodge reactions, and movement combos a a key element if you want to avoid the problem of duelists touching bases until one dies.
Really excited to see where this goes, sounds like a really fun idea!
Im not exacly a game dev just a gamer but I always like when a game has single or coop aspect to it, so its fun to play if your alone or play with firends
So duel games are awesome and everything, but like gotta take a moment and say that this was an extremely tight video. Like cuts, audio, and shots were sharp as hell and totally made it all work. Looking forward to more
Damn, I wish you the best of luck for this project. It looks super interesting.
GDC is a great resource. Really excited to see more!
Yes please! I'm hooked. When you were talking about 1v1 and how to balance melee vs range I thought about fighting at or on some kind of objective instead of "just" killing or duelling your mate. So there could be benefits if you are on the spot or with the quiddich or however it's called :D. Really looking forward to any kind of progress on your ideas.
GW's Inquisitor game from back in the day may be worth looking into. Whilst not a single model game (rather a small squad of characters) it used 54mm scale models and had mechanics for load outs and progression.
I came here to also mention Inquisitor!
I feel like something that would really help this kind of idea is the "Wrapping" around it. Picking from something that helps really fuel the mental image of brutal, fast and compelling one on one combat. The example that comes to mine is old school gladiatorial combat.
Think ancient Rome. Two gladiators enter the area, usually of different types of "Classes" (There were multiple different schools of gladiatorial combat, each utilizing different styles of equipment from swords and shields to nets to javelins) and duel.
To prevent the whole "Two melee meet in the middle and just stay there" issue by having mechanics around fighters needing to disengage, regain stamina or gaining the crowds favor for buffs, creating windows for both fighters needing to step back, or creating opportunities for more enduring fighters to press the advantage.
I think this is a really cool goal and wish you the best! Good luck!
Great idea! Love the concept of strategy over the randomness of dice. One idea would be to look into what makes chess such a long lasting and some would say the most strategic game out there.
It’s a game of only 9 “characters”. Each with only 1 move (ignoring the the special moves like castling and en Passant). But I find what make chess great is even though the concept is simple you get an infinite amount of scenarios so you don’t need to create them like you said you don’t want to. You can create forts for defence, you can set traps, you sacrifice guys on a suicide runs, set up watch towers, you can force people into a corner and still lose because you miss something. Chess is all about strategy and tactics.
Tactics are about getting immediate benefits such as attacking two pieces at once so your opponent has to decide which one to sacrifice. Whilst strategy is setting up your pieces or position so that it could be beneficial in the future but not beneficial right now. Such as tucking your knight in front of enemy pawns in the centre of the board to set up a watch tower.
With only two characters it’s going to be interesting how to get this mix of strategy and tactics. How to be aggressive or defensive or sneaky. But I guess it would have to be a range of moves/abilities that can be effective at different things and different ranges. But it seems chess shows you don’t really need that many.
But I guess what trying to say is that like chess the “abilities” don’t have to be complicated to get and very very strategic game.
Some random thoughts, many of which I suspect you've already considered:
1. You could theme the game around Titans, making the use of these massive miniatures feel thematic and not just coincidental. Also helps solve the terrain problem.
2. You're gonna want to think about how you track game state - can it be done with just a few tokens / dice on the table, or do you need a little card similar to Warmachine's mech dude thingies to track where damage goes? The latter can create really interesting gameplay and can still be fast & simple.
3. Do you plan on making minis for the game? If not, what is the range of "acceptable" mini styles - you grabbed 2 fantasy minis to show your game and left Hovering Skateboard Girl on the sidelines. Could she be used in your game?
4. Do you want players to build a character to fit their specific mini, or find a pre-built character that's close enough?
5. Consider checking GURPS for inspiration. It's (theoretically) balanced & has TONS of options for stuff. It might give you some inspiration, especially if you want to go the character building direction.
I'm really looking forward to seeing this get developed!
I like the idea of a single miniature.
Now envision it's more than a 1v1 session.
2v2's, 3v3's, and so on have ALWAYS tickled my competitive brain in games.
I feel like, with the single miniature focus, this will make teamplay and free-for-all very dramatic.
Hey man! I think that one place that you may be able to get a lot of insight from as far as a 1v1 game is concerned is the ultimate 1v1 competitive gaming experience, which is none other than fighting games!
While obviously a fighting game isn't a perfect parallel into miniature games or tabletop games by a long shot, I think that a lot of the EXPERIENCE of playing a fighting game could port over well into the mindset of this new game you are undertaking. It could also help to get some ideas how melee and ranged characters could potentially interact as well as give you some insight into how to make different melee characters feel unique and different from each other.
I've been following you for a long time and intend to support this new game as much as I can.
I've been working on a tabletop game of my own that takes inspiration from fighting games, mainly Street Fighter. A lot of games have already done this formula, but they feel more like they replicate the experience of mashing buttons as a kid, rather than playing a fighting game strategically as an adult.
The first thing that I identified was the rock/paper/scissors nature of fighting games, and try to analyse it using pen and paper and taking notes, making graphs and stuff.
What you could do is take the very unique gameplay system of For Honor and try to break it down into small steps that you can replicate on the tabletop, be it with dice, cards, coins, ladders, checkers, whatever... And built it from there.
Good luck Scott / Trent. There are a number of 1-on-1 fig games in the historical gladiator genre.
Try 'Jugular' as an example if you want to see how they approach such a game.
The decision points are often things like deciding to attack / defend / parry / move, perhaps with players simultaneously revealing their choice by playing cards or similar.
You identify some key constraints, will a game degenerate into just two figs bashing each other, and what re-playability will there be if you only have 1-2 figs in your collection.
Hey Scott, I'm currently trying to come up with a board game, and as far as the problem of people sticking to the middle of the board one idea I've had is power ups around the map, making them a big incentive so people break apart and WANT to go grab these power ups, alongside secondary objectives, such as a control zone. Can't wait to be first in line to get what you're designing, because the concept is already super fun.
I absolutely love this idea!
Excited to see you excited, Scott. Probably not the game I’d dream about playing, but imma play it if you do it. Could a miniature agnostic game where your favorite hero from a larger army gets do duel the hero from another in a more satisfying way? Like ultimate commander showdown between my dwarf army vs someone’s ork army?
The dueling games I most enjoy all have an interesting win condition, where fighting is secondary to the objective. Athlas:Duel for divinity asks to collect and combine tokens from the map. Keyforge makes you gatheer resource to craft keys. In both games fighting matters a lot as it hampers opponent progress, but at the same time the losing player still feels like they have a chance.
Excelent video and guidelines. I hope you find the right ideas to develop this game.
I'm not sure if this got said, but a good compromise for terrain would be to set the default scale to something in line with the stuff used by scale modellers for dioramas.
Alternatively, you can set up the game to have a grid-based system for measuring distance. Players can work at any scale by simply changing the size of each cell on the grid to suit.
Alternatively you could look into the system used in Space Weirdos: everything is measured by using sticks with a line down the middle, even area of effect is measured by outlining the area with the sticks. Sticks can be whatever length is suitable for the models being used and it's pretty convenient for players to just buy sticks in bulk for crafting purposes.
Coming more from the RPG side of the tabletop hobby, I'd recommend looking at the Riddle of Steel family of Tabletop RPGs. Riddle of Steel, Blade of the Iron Throne, Song of Swords, and Sword and Scoundrel all feature highly in detail 1v1 fights based on historical weapons based martial arts. They often tend to play like Wargames in some ways, with high lethality, allocation of dice pools towards things like defense and offense, simultaneous resolution where you and your opponent perform offensive and defensive maneuvers at the same time, and alternating offensive and defensive phases that use the same pool of resources.
For me, making a game is tons of fun, however, there are also moments of tediousness, frustrations and such. If you stick with it, however, the end result can be quite rewarding and fulfilling. Just know that there will always be someone that won't like it and if you believe in what you're making and love playing it, stick to your guns. Someone, somewhere, will love it too.
I would recommend adding a risk mechanic to the game.
The is a game where I don't remember the name but it has a very interesting mechanic:
When there is line of sight after a movement and the models are in range of their weapons both attack.
Both attackers take a d6 and set to a number of their choice in secret.
Then they reveal and the one with the lower number attacks first.
To hit a value of the picked number + a d6 rolled must be 7 or higher. When the first activator hits, the second is not allowed to perform his strike.