James Fitz. makes a good point below. Roll and move isn't a lame mechanic unless a designer uses it generically. It's up to the designer how to utilize it cleverly and in a way that is integral and fun. Roll and move deserves to be in a designer's trick bag. This video shows many good examples of this.
In Trivial Pursuit, the 'move' part is not essential. It's fundamentially a stochastic mechanism; you could roll a colored die, or from a deck of cards, to determine the question theme. In Clue, that is even more true: the essence of the game is information exchange, not 'moving' around. I recall playing it be mail (in days before the internet) and the rules had totally done away with the dicerolling. On the other hand, wargames are definitely post-randomness, but the amount of input decision totally overcomes the impact of random results (in good games). So there is nothing inherently bad in outcome randomness. The problem is when there is both input and output randomness and not enough decision, i.e. pure luck. Either with 'move' , or without.
I agree, whilst one may be used more often and more successfully than the other there is certainly a place for both. Particularly if you are aiming for your game to be thematic, sometimes output randomness is exactly what you need to deliver a deep connection between theme and mechanism. Thanks for your comment!
This made me remember that brutal Pokémon game, Master Trainer. You always roll first, but from the second city onwards, you decide the path you take and the direction you move. The game was long only due to players' decisions, as you have to plan how to use your cards to catch Pokémon, or even to battle, gather some items, plan the best time to get an event, etc. The dice still decides the move, but you decide what's going to happen once you move. The best part of it is that it is never punishing (yeah, you may have a bad roll trying to catch, but Pokémon can escape, and you may even have a bad roll in a battle but there's always a winner in these); I mean, bad results have a reason, not like Monopoly where once you roll directly to another player's owned property, you're screwed.
That sounds really cool. I haven't played Master Trainer but might have to check it out now. Like everyone else my age, I loved the original Pokémon game! I think this is a good example of how the mechanism can work well if implemented correctly. Thanks for your comment!
I think an important thing to note about this mechanic in games like Ur, Senet, or one of my favourites.. Yutnori, is that the window of possible outcomes is actually rather narrow. Ur being 0-4, Yutnori being 0-5 with a 1/20 chance of a -1 (assuming that half rounded sticks are 50/50) and I assume Senet is similar. Combine this with an equally narrow play space means the randomness it's heavily mitigated. The reason these games have strategy shine through is because the choices are actually meaningful on a scale that small. I believe the bad rap that roll and move gets is purely from the Monopoly era family games. The number pools and board layouts are just simply too large to be interesting or allow for decent strategy.
Also, with a throw of several "coins" with just two sides instead of just one or two 6-sided dice, you can predict the most probable outcome and prepare yopurself.
We were given a game called Brandi Dog, which we haven't played, but it seems to be Ludo, BUT, you also have a hand of cards that you can use to influence your turn. So now you have luck of the roll, and draw, but also decisions to make.
This sounds interesting! I haven't seen this one but will have to look out for it! I like examples of games where you can mitigate luck. Thanks for sharing!
this also explains why it appeals to masses: - the mechanism is easy to pick-up (and explain [and works even when explanations fail]) - excessive decision-making and strategy are not required to participate - does not require you to actually be smart (or at least you can sometimes win through sheer luck) all leading to the wide appeal for the bulk of humanity. I am honestly not sure why this social effect is not taken into account more seriously. it is as if the educated people completely ignore the vast storeys beneath them on the labor pyramid, yet someone has to do mundane jobs, and they probably like to play games too. in other words, these people aren't at a level of luxury that allows them to ENJOY HOBBIES. so the criticism of board game hobbyists simply doesn't apply to them.
5:20 "Snakes and ladders if you're [British]": No! It's the other way around, "chutes" only used if you're afflicted by being 'murrican. It was a word chosen by a puritan American publisher (Milton Bradley in 1943) who objected to "snakes" that put the devil in mind (the Garden of Eden and all that). All other western languages have "snakes".
One example of terrific and clever use of "roll and move": Games in which player #1 rolls two DIFFERENT dice, say a six sider and a ten sider. Depending on how far away a goal on the board is (close or far), player #1 chooses which die to use to move her piece. The leftover die is used to move a unit or units that move on its/their own to capture player #2's piece. Next turn, player #2 rolls and moves pieces using the same rule. Rinse and repeat. Ye olde Mayfair game "Sanctuary" uses this variation. One die is chosen for the acting player's piece (a thief) and the other is used to move the town guards toward the other player's piece.
I design pretty simple abstract games. I haven't made a roll and move yet but I did have an idea for it. The plan was to use the maximum dice roll as a basis for the turn, and then use the role itself to divide the max number into two different usable numbers. Basically if you rolled 2d6 and got a 7, your move would be 7 spaces but then you would get 5 points towards another mechanic. It gives you all the benefits and simplicity of roll and move but gives you more to work with that any new player can understand. Plus, It's inherently self balancing. You can also just use the dice individually, use different colors, or even different types of dice. Monopoly would probably be a lot more interesting if you rolled a 5, and then a 2, instead of just a 7. I've been thinking about designing a very simplistic BattleTech type miniature game on a hex map that uses Several of these ideas. Something like this.. You roll 3d6, a D4, and a red D6. Each basic D6 is a number of spaces you can move in a straight line. The D4 tells you how many times you can reorient yourself in between these movements. And, the red D6 would be shooting your gun or something. This seems incredibly simplistic but it actually gives you a lot more variety than "your piece can move 7 squares".
This is a great example of turning the mechanism from one of post luck to one of pre luck. The die rolls are random but are only the beginning. Once rolled, the player is given agency to make strategic choices based on their roll. Let us know how the game develops it sounds really cool!
@@dallassegno please do.. especially for hex games. They always boil down to a range of movement rather than types of moves like chess. It's the limitations we add to game moves that make them more interesting.
I actually made a roll and move game. But there were some changes i made to add choice. First players can move up to tge amount rolled sometimes they want to move less spaces. Secondly the board is a maze. Players dont know where their goal is. So they must attempt to create a mental map of the board or watch others and remember how they move through the map. Finally players dont have one set path so they must decide which path is the best for their solution. I also incoperated strong cordination and negotiation with other players and its a fun time
TATSU (a game very similar to BACKGAMMON) uses the two dice roll and move method of using dice individually for sepertate player piece moves, or combining to move a single piece future. A very tactical game.
I really like Sagrada in the way that you roll dice and draft them but each player chooses which dice they want based on their specific player board. No same colours can go next to another of the same either vertically or horizontally and this applies to number values as well. Each player chooses which dice they'd like to put on their player board in turn order and it goes from there. Then of course, there's Catan that I dislike with a passion as it's just rolling (and praying) for resources. A game similar to Catan that I like way more is called Machi Koro where each player can buy from a pool of cards that has a number on it. The number represents the roll and if the dice get rolled for that amount, the player who owns that card gets (or takes) money. It's a much better way of controlling the randomness of the rolls in my opinion.
Thanks for your comment ☺I completely agree about Sagrada- it's much better to have player agency over what dice you choose etc rather than the game deciding for you, leaving you with no interesting decisions to make. I haven't played Machi Koro but I like the sound of how it helps controlthe randomness. I'll have to look out for it! Thanks again!
My sense is that calling "roll and move" a single mechanic that includes both Chutes and Ladders (all luck) and Backgammon (pre-luck, substantive strategy especially with the doubling cube) is not particularly useful nomenclature. It's an accurate description of both, but they are so different. I'm also less sure that the pre-luck version is really the default: the roll-and-choose-who-to-move with capture has been used in a ton of games.
Yes with over 5000 years of history this mechanic is almost certainly more complex than one name allows. I think the mechanic is fine but it has to match the theme and audience of the game. Too often it was include lazily as a simple to learn center piece for any game
Output randomness is certainly not inherently poor. Tabletop RPGs are chock full of it. I think Roll & Move is totally fine as long as it's not so simple as Snakes & Ladders (but even then, as you point out, it is a useful mechanic for kids etc).edit: oops I meant output randomness lol!
one way i worked around this was by changing how you use the results of the dice. you roll 2, then can either use one die, the other, both added together, or one subtracted from the other (sometimes even being able to move backwards). still luck based, but adds choice into it for strategy
This sounds like a great solution! Anything that gives back player agency and turns it from a post luck to pre luck decision is going to make gameplay more satisfying. Thanks for commenting!
Even Hasbro themselves are aware of the pain of classic Monopoly and release new versions either make fun of the classic game (like in the case of Cheaters Edition or Monopoly For Sore Losers) or try to improve upon it. Monopoly Builder for example uses much of the same mechanics as the original but adds Catan-esque resource management, building and trading systems. Or Monopoly Fortnite Edition (yes, really), which adds elements of push your luck and survival as players try to outwit one another by placing traps while attempting to avoid a "storm" which slowly swallows up the board.
These sound like interesting developments, thanks for commenting! I have to say, I'm probably a little biased against the game so I haven't tried many of the modern versions but the way you've described them makes me feel like I should give them a go! Thanks again!
I've often joked about designing a board game called "Roll and Move" that would have a basic roll and move mechanism, but there would be several subgames of different board game genres and the spaces you land on in the "roll and move" would tell you which subgame you take your turn in next. It's probably too conceptual to work but I'd play it if someone made it.
Great explanation! I’m glad you mentioned the lack of forgiveness that hobby gamers have for roll-and-move, given how many people it has scared away from our tables! But you’re right that it probably doesn’t deserve all the vitriol it receives.
The best roll and Move game is A Touch of Evil. Because 1. There are a lot of resources which can modify the roll 2. You can go many directions with varying rewards at different distances so you have interesting choice with both ‘good’ and ‘bad’ rolls. 3. Rolling a 1 grants you an event card so the worst roll is actually one of the best given how good events are. Another good example is Spy Alley which has a resource that can modify your roll, and part of the board has a major deviation and choosing which path to take is a significant decision/ risk each time.
Roll and move mechanic still works for many people the same way gambling does -- magical thinking. It's not logical or rational. But for those who think "here comes a good roll", i.e. magical thinking, the ups and downs of good rolls and bad roles is enough for them to get into the game. I personally don't care for that approach, but I can see why others do because there's lots of magical thinking going on in our world today. Which is unfortunately a bit of a problem for humanity.
The kind of luck displayed in roll and move is certainly divisive. Personally, I prefer pre luck games but I can see the attraction of post luck games. In many ways, they’re far more popular- just look at all casino games! Thanks for commenting ☺️
Nicely researched and very informative thank you! Perhaps a more general point is that we should not necessarily evaluate mechanisms by some of their more prevalent or popular applications, but instead by their core characteristics. In this case, output randomness is not necessarily a defining feature of the roll and move mechanism and in fact if we consider some of the old classical games (backgammon, etc.)--as you have done in this explainer--then we see that roll and move can have a lot of strategic and tactical gameplay applications. Even BGG's description of the mechanism--which I believe is based on Engelstein and Shalev's book--corrects this "it's all luck" assumption. I am curious which is your favorite roll and move game? I'm interested in trying some of the racing games you mentioned. I don't have a great racing game in my collection so need to find a good one!
I couldn't agree more, the mechanic has certainly gotten a bad reputation from how it's been used in games but that doesn't make it a bad mechanic fundamentally. Personally I love backgammon having played it since I was a kid so guess that is my favourite roll and move game but that is a large part down to sentimentality of playing it with my dad as well as the game itself being good. Recently we've been playing a bit of Deep Sea Adventure which is a fun push your luck game and is super cheap to pick up and try. For racing games Formula D is a classic but may be a little dated now.
Thank you for this video, it was a really interesting watch. Loved seeing Philosophia: Floating world on the video, looks beautiful and cannot wait for my copy to arrive.
Very nice video. Great use of knowledge. The game Excape also have a nice twist. It got a push your luck aspect. Can't Stop is also a push your luck roll and move variant.
I haven't played Ur, but I feel like it is a decidedly better game than Backgammon, multiple d4 where 2 sides count as giving moves is massively bell curved. And being able to determine how to apply those is even better. It's specifically the I rolled and that number is the amount the piece moves. Is so much worse. It's weird how the worst of thousands years old games are the ones I've actually heard of and played
@@cogitodesign Your videos are very inspiring, actually I think I'll record a podcast about the subject of this one. I'll make sure I mention your work :)
@@Nixx_BoardGames Wow, I'm flattered thanks so much! A podcast on this sounds awesome 👍 Make sure to share the link with me and I can share it on our social media 🙌
Love the vid! I will definitely add it to my next game because players will also be given other decisions instead of movement and you can win without even moving one space forward.
Really pleased to hear you enjoyed the video, thanks so much for commenting and good luck with your game design!
2 роки тому+1
As a hobbyist, I did this mod: "Blood Rage Lite". It's awesome and free and it's designed by a genuine engineer gamer with no constraints but fun! Get it, for free, from BGG's Blood Rage file section.
Based on the criteria outlined Settlers of Catan is Roll and Move, but the overwhelming consensus is that it is a fun game with a certain degree of freshness (freshness in regard to longer lived games like Monopoly or Candyland). Good video!
@@legobil_ the definition given was a die is rolled and an effect happens. The robber is the most literal interpretation, but taking your resources or building is still considered "move."
In Catan all players are experiencing the effects of the roll simultaneously, and the extent of the effect has been decided by each player beforehand. Some luck is involved, but it's mostly calculation.
My game uses this as its main mechanic but lets the player chose how many spaces to move. The number one gets with the dice is only the max amount of spaces one can move in that turn. Its up to each player if they want to advance all the allowed spaces or stop at some point.
damn, I've been looking for a video game toolkit but for board games channel, and I think I've found it, thanks for the interesting video Edit: oh and sub
@@cogitodesign Best analogy I can think: Roll and move as a gameplay mechanic is as hard to implement as third act misunderstanding as a storytelling device.
This is it! this is the final key for The Dracula by Bram Stoker Game. I'm using this mechanics with a super twist because I believe in your final recommendations. It's simple and fun and super easy to teach. Game designers needs more imagination and creativity. Great video. Thanks!
Awesome, I'm looking forward to hearing about the super twist on this mechanic! Thanks as always for your support ☺️ I hope your designing is going well!
Good video! I've had an adult playtester tell me once, that they only like playing games, that heavily rely on luck, because those were more satisfying to cheat in. Lol Needless to say, their favourite game was Monopoly.
Chip Theory games has released burncycle at the time of this comment. The game has roll and move, but the way it is implemented is quite unique. Players are given an amount of power for their robot they are controlling, and their power represents their dice pool. In order to perform actions (move, access terminals, open doors etc) the bots must allocate AP, which is done by choosing a number of dice (based on their power and upgraded dice they have unlocked). The player needs to split these dice between several actions during their turn, adding an element of resource management. The basic dice have blank sides, which can either be combined with another to gain a 1 result or saved for a future role, where any dice with a value rolled is used even if the value is in excess. So lower value dice have some value over the upgraded dice, and you can guarantee results when you need to, or you can try and get exactly what you need and risk not hitting the action but getting rewarded if you do. There is also a secondary bot that needs to have AP assigned to it, which gives another place where actions need to be assigned while also giving a place to spend excess rolled results. It's an interesting take on roll and move, because it is less about the movement- players will generally have plenty of movement to do whatever they need. It is more a mechanic designed to facilitate resource management and have a small element of push your luck that can be used in a pinch.
I haven't had a chance to play it yet, but that does sound like a really interesting twist on the mechanism! Thanks for sharing, I'll have to check it out!
Rajas definitely doesn't contain roll & move, at least not anything close to the traditional definition. I think it would be misleading if it was included in the list of game mechanisms.
3:04 This seems very similar to the game Hounds and Jackals we all saw being played by Sethi and Nefertiri near the beginning of "The Ten Commandments." Do you know anything about that game? I'm very curious about it.
Hi and thanks for your comment ☺I'm not sure what game they were playing I'm afraid but it sounds interesting. Will have to look into that! Thanks again for commenting and Merry Christmas!
The one thing more prevalent to "fun" in board games is player interaction via a common play area. Pre luck, or roll and move, is generally bad but in games like Deepsea adventure or Formula D it's the changing game state that gives agency. Snakes and ladders, or monopoly (but not goose chase) it doesn't matter where other players are. There is no interaction at all. At least in monopoly you have half the time a choice to buy or not to buy. In catan, there's even less of that. The earliest post luck game is probably backgammon (or ur but the rules on ur are so vague I can't consider it a board game).
Yes I agree, Deep sea adventure in particular is a great use of the mechanism. One thing that stands out there is how quick games are, I think randomness gets more frustrating the longer a game lasts. Thanks for your comment.
why Talisman was not mentioned? It is getting its 5th edition and its still just roll and move where the only decision is whenever you move to left or right and then stuff happens and you might roll again. It is a great example how people nitpick at luck of dice, but don't complain about luck of draw of the cards because the limited outcomes unlike a dice where the same roll might show up n times in a row.
I dont think its inherently bad. Maybe you roll many die and select which value goes where. Maybe your character augments numbers or you use cards to augment the experience.
Backgammon uses roll and move for thousands of years and it's one of the deepest abstract strategy board games in existence. So, IMO, it's not a bad mechanic at all. Just modern designers lost their thouch how to use it correctly.
Agreed, I don’t think there are such things as bad mechanisms, just bad ways to use them. Backgammon is a good example as I think pre-luck mixed with roll and move can be quite an effective combo.
Any mechsnic is lame if it does no MAKE SENSE. For example, during combat you plan, but self performance under stress does not always work as planned. Rolling dice is appropriate. This is why Battletech works so well. Positioning is deterministic, firing has randomness. If you drive a car and you plan to turn left or accelerate, it is almost certain your car will react as planned. So using a card with deterministic outcome makes sense. This us why dice rolling in Formula D is outperformed by card decisioning in Downforce. Sometimes dice automation makes sense. In Rebellion base box, strategy is done by players but tactical combat is automated using dice. In the expansion they added player cards to add a certain level of tactical decision. If you see "how about baseball" it is a dice automation game of baseball. It can be fixed by using rock paper scissors to see if batter succeeds in achieving contact. Rock paper scissors is the best mechanism for a duel between player. This mechanism can be expressed in many ways. In Battletech, mechs are a trade off between firepower, speed and armor. So by facing a mech with one design vs another mech with a different design, you are having a rock paper scissors implied in that mech design. The "I cut you choose" mechanic is a glorified name for rock paper scissors where no one has guaranteed victory. The design trade off of Battletech is also rock paper scissors. Roll and move only makes sense if you model how a butterfly flies and positions itself. Some people may like it. Some will not. For example, make chess to have random teleports that serve as ejection seats. Chess players will hate it as it adds luck to a game where skill to achieve a deterministic outcome is the appeal of the game. The whole point is the MAKE SENSE topic. With thematic games, it is clear. But with ludic games it seems roll and move in Monopoly where you charge money based on where people fall, is more a game about setting a trap to catch flies. One player is the fly and the other is setting a trap. So both players compete to see who screws the other better. I do not find it appealing. But probably some people do.
I agree that matching mechanisms to what is actually supposed to be happening thematically is really important. You give some really good examples of this.
@@cogitodesign well, in casino games you either bet between each round or are asked whenever you want to pay out or continue - scammier but more engaging. Snakes and ladders only have illusion of agency.
I can't agree with geoff engelstein here. I think the mechanic is inherently bad if it's purely randomness. It's not even that you make a choice and randomness determines the outcome or randomness determines your choices so it's neither input or output randomness it's just pure randomness. I think some mechanics are inherently bad and making some interesting design choices will likely end with a game still worse than it could have been using better mechanics I should clarify if you only have one pawn it's inherently bad . Otherwise you. Have an element of choice
I have to say in some ways I'm inclined to agree with you. It is a mechanic that we have seen done badly so many times so whenever I see it has been put in a game my initial thought is that it is most probably a mistake. That being said, I feel like with a few adaptations there could be a way of using the mechanic thematically but it would have to be done in a game where randomness thematically makes sense. It's not roll and move but the push your luck mechanic from Deep Sea Adventure comes pretty close to this I think. Thanks for your comment!
@@cogitodesign well I feel bad that I commented what I did because the rest of your video dealt with some of what I said pretty well. Dice can be exciting but I can lead to some feels bad moments when an opponent with only the faintest chance managed to hit in undaunted for example. Still I loved this discussion of the mechanic, the new things I learned about the history of board games, and some new options to consider. Thank you
Rajas of the Ganges! A great dice rolling/ worker placement game set in historic India. When you roll your dice you assign them to different actions so there’s that element of agency rather than just luck. I’d recommend playing it for sure! Here’s the link to the game on BGG: boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/220877/rajas-ganges
Great channel. So I like roll & move. A lot of my favorite games include it: Monopoly, Talisman, HeroQuest, Clue, just to name a few. I unashamedly defend Monopoly as a great classic. Why? People who hate it probably are not playing using the rules. The game isn't that long usually, maybe an hour or hour 1/2. Play by the rules as printed, don't put money on free parking and all that nonsense. To criticize Monopoly's dice mechanic is to criticize dice mechanics as a whole, or games with luck factors. You can have a bad run and not hit properties, but that doesn't happen all too often. You could introduce homebrew rules by dealing out a number of properties to players to make things more balance if need be. I think people are just mad because they are not good and striking deals and they lengthen Monopoly by hours by using free parking as a lotto, which ruins the game.
I completely agree- the house rules are a major problem with people’s enjoyment with Monopoly. I understand and appreciate your position. If you’re interested in the game, I put together a series of videos on the history of the game, why people love it/hate it etc. It’s called ‘Terrible Game or Timeless Classic?’. Here’s the link: ua-cam.com/video/_Vg4iHPGpG4/v-deo.htmlsi=9GqAj4VJpwWKuFGN Thanks so much for commenting 😊
Yes! I love monopoly and once I taught my gaming group how to play it RAW it became a favorite. Not putting properties up for auction if a player passes on buying kills the speed of play.
I think it’s fine but only if there’s other choices or inputs u can do to either manipulate the dice or actions you can do afterwards or between roles to have some form of skill or tactics and not just luck. For example snakes and ladders is the worst game of all time imo it’s only purpose is to introduce the dice rolling mechanic to kids
I agree completely! Mitigation can change the luck factor and make it feel much more input randomness rather than output randomness-based. It's not my go-to mechanism when designing but I think it can be used effectively. Thanks for your comment!
At first I was thinking, "oh good pre-luck and post-luck should be much less confusing than the typical terms (input and output randomness" then you went on to use those terms exactly opposite how I intuitively expect. You used "pre-luck" to mean a decision made AFTER the luck happens and "post-luck" to describe a decision made BEFORE the luck happens. Wtf?
I think you title is misleading. Many games use randomness. The issue with games like Monopoly is the lack of agency; you actually make this point towards the end and it is the really issue here. For example, the royal game of Ur is actually interesting despite the randomness. I also don't think it really matter whether you have pre-luck or post-luck either; it's how it's implemented with the rest of the game. In fact pre-luck might be a bit easier to get right!!!
There's no such things as not allowed in game design, only people who think they know better telling you how you should be designing games. I have created a roll and move game that is very popular with "new" gamers. The game design world needs to beware of groupthink and only catering to a certain type of gamer. My two cents.
I completely disagree on one point. A game that is hazardous as a main mechanic is deeply unfair. It's literally the idea. Some will advance, others not, stuff happens, then one player wins because of complete randomness. Luck is profoundly unfair. The nature of advantaging some and not others is profoundly antagonist to justice, equality, and fairness. For that reason, and maybe the fact that luck and life are against me, I have been made hating board games as a whole, even to the point of hating TTRPGs like D&D which have a deep tendency of rulelawyer railroadery, while it was my hobby and passion at the time. I had a bad experience with one guy of this type. Because of this I have almost left games at all, while I was only lacking of narrative, fair games which I didn't knew existed back then. Thought it was important to say. Nature is profoundly NOT just, NOT equal, and NOT fair. Making someone win because of their random characteristics is purely evil. It should be a crime. But I guess thats just my outcast / misfit pov in life.
And Monopoly has both Roll and Move and player elimination, with many knowing the foregone conclusion of their own impending elimination, and just go through the motions of mortgaging more and more properties wishing for their boredom and agony to end as quickly as possible.
Fair point! I can see the attraction to very young children though. I guess it depends on the definition of a game. I find it interesting to think that 2 computers could play snake and ladders endlessly just by generating random numbers!
Roll to move is the best game mechanic as it reflects real life circumstance. It teaches us that we ultimately dont have control of the bigger picture of our existence and it teaches that no matter how bad things get they can turn around in the blink of an eye. And no matter how good things are. You can still fall.
this is intriguing for sure. I have made my own version of the board game "RISK", and one feature I added was that after you have captured a continent, (we use money now as one-form of currency) you can pay $200 from your Defense Fund to choose a group of armies (minimum of 10) that are located on that continent and place a "special forces" token beside them to declare they are an exclusive "special forces" unit. Which means during combat, they are given an advantage with the dice during either the "attack" phase, or when they are being "attacked" by rolling two 12 sided dice and one 6 - sided die.
It sounds really interesting! I like it when relatively simple games have added layers of complexity to increase thematic immersion. It sounds like that does this well! Thanks for sharing ☺
"The oldest game dates back 5,000 years to the ancient Egyptians..."
*Yu-Gi-Oh theme starts playing in my head*
😂
IT'S TIME TO
G-G-G-G... GGGGG- GAME!
James Fitz. makes a good point below. Roll and move isn't a lame mechanic unless a designer uses it generically. It's up to the designer how to utilize it cleverly and in a way that is integral and fun. Roll and move deserves to be in a designer's trick bag. This video shows many good examples of this.
Agreed! I think the problem is much more to do with the amount of games that have used it badly than the mechanic itself!
I can imagine a combination of black-jack and roll-and-move to work really well for a push-your-luck minigame.
In Trivial Pursuit, the 'move' part is not essential. It's fundamentially a stochastic mechanism; you could roll a colored die, or from a deck of cards, to determine the question theme.
In Clue, that is even more true: the essence of the game is information exchange, not 'moving' around. I recall playing it be mail (in days before the internet) and the rules had totally done away with the dicerolling.
On the other hand, wargames are definitely post-randomness, but the amount of input decision totally overcomes the impact of random results (in good games). So there is nothing inherently bad in outcome randomness. The problem is when there is both input and output randomness and not enough decision, i.e. pure luck. Either with 'move' , or without.
I agree, whilst one may be used more often and more successfully than the other there is certainly a place for both. Particularly if you are aiming for your game to be thematic, sometimes output randomness is exactly what you need to deliver a deep connection between theme and mechanism. Thanks for your comment!
This made me remember that brutal Pokémon game, Master Trainer. You always roll first, but from the second city onwards, you decide the path you take and the direction you move. The game was long only due to players' decisions, as you have to plan how to use your cards to catch Pokémon, or even to battle, gather some items, plan the best time to get an event, etc. The dice still decides the move, but you decide what's going to happen once you move. The best part of it is that it is never punishing (yeah, you may have a bad roll trying to catch, but Pokémon can escape, and you may even have a bad roll in a battle but there's always a winner in these); I mean, bad results have a reason, not like Monopoly where once you roll directly to another player's owned property, you're screwed.
That sounds really cool. I haven't played Master Trainer but might have to check it out now. Like everyone else my age, I loved the original Pokémon game! I think this is a good example of how the mechanism can work well if implemented correctly. Thanks for your comment!
I think an important thing to note about this mechanic in games like Ur, Senet, or one of my favourites.. Yutnori, is that the window of possible outcomes is actually rather narrow. Ur being 0-4, Yutnori being 0-5 with a 1/20 chance of a -1 (assuming that half rounded sticks are 50/50) and I assume Senet is similar. Combine this with an equally narrow play space means the randomness it's heavily mitigated. The reason these games have strategy shine through is because the choices are actually meaningful on a scale that small. I believe the bad rap that roll and move gets is purely from the Monopoly era family games. The number pools and board layouts are just simply too large to be interesting or allow for decent strategy.
This is a good and interesting point thanks for sharing 👍
Also, with a throw of several "coins" with just two sides instead of just one or two 6-sided dice, you can predict the most probable outcome and prepare yopurself.
We were given a game called Brandi Dog, which we haven't played, but it seems to be Ludo, BUT, you also have a hand of cards that you can use to influence your turn. So now you have luck of the roll, and draw, but also decisions to make.
This sounds interesting! I haven't seen this one but will have to look out for it! I like examples of games where you can mitigate luck. Thanks for sharing!
Pre-luck = randomize, then input
Post-luck = input, then randomize
Luck = randomize with no input
Simple roll & move = Luck
Thanks for codifying this
this also explains why it appeals to masses:
- the mechanism is easy to pick-up (and explain [and works even when explanations fail])
- excessive decision-making and strategy are not required to participate
- does not require you to actually be smart (or at least you can sometimes win through sheer luck)
all leading to the wide appeal for the bulk of humanity. I am honestly not sure why this social effect is not taken into account more seriously.
it is as if the educated people completely ignore the vast storeys beneath them on the labor pyramid, yet someone has to do mundane jobs, and they probably like to play games too.
in other words, these people aren't at a level of luxury that allows them to ENJOY HOBBIES.
so the criticism of board game hobbyists simply doesn't apply to them.
Tell me you didn't understand the video without telling me you didn't understand the video
5:20 "Snakes and ladders if you're [British]": No! It's the other way around, "chutes" only used if you're afflicted by being 'murrican. It was a word chosen by a puritan American publisher (Milton Bradley in 1943) who objected to "snakes" that put the devil in mind (the Garden of Eden and all that). All other western languages have "snakes".
That’s interesting, I didn’t know that! Thanks for your comment ☺
One example of terrific and clever use of "roll and move": Games in which player #1 rolls two DIFFERENT dice, say a six sider and a ten sider. Depending on how far away a goal on the board is (close or far), player #1 chooses which die to use to move her piece. The leftover die is used to move a unit or units that move on its/their own to capture player #2's piece. Next turn, player #2 rolls and moves pieces using the same rule. Rinse and repeat.
Ye olde Mayfair game "Sanctuary" uses this variation. One die is chosen for the acting player's piece (a thief) and the other is used to move the town guards toward the other player's piece.
Yes this is another good way to add some spice to the mechanic.
I design pretty simple abstract games. I haven't made a roll and move yet but I did have an idea for it. The plan was to use the maximum dice roll as a basis for the turn, and then use the role itself to divide the max number into two different usable numbers. Basically if you rolled 2d6 and got a 7, your move would be 7 spaces but then you would get 5 points towards another mechanic. It gives you all the benefits and simplicity of roll and move but gives you more to work with that any new player can understand. Plus, It's inherently self balancing.
You can also just use the dice individually, use different colors, or even different types of dice. Monopoly would probably be a lot more interesting if you rolled a 5, and then a 2, instead of just a 7.
I've been thinking about designing a very simplistic BattleTech type miniature game on a hex map that uses Several of these ideas. Something like this.. You roll 3d6, a D4, and a red D6. Each basic D6 is a number of spaces you can move in a straight line. The D4 tells you how many times you can reorient yourself in between these movements. And, the red D6 would be shooting your gun or something. This seems incredibly simplistic but it actually gives you a lot more variety than "your piece can move 7 squares".
This is a great example of turning the mechanism from one of post luck to one of pre luck. The die rolls are random but are only the beginning. Once rolled, the player is given agency to make strategic choices based on their roll. Let us know how the game develops it sounds really cool!
oh my goash i am using this
@@dallassegno please do.. especially for hex games. They always boil down to a range of movement rather than types of moves like chess. It's the limitations we add to game moves that make them more interesting.
Nice job thinking outside of the box, rather than bowing to conventional wisdom. I hope I come across one of your games someday.
I actually made a roll and move game. But there were some changes i made to add choice. First players can move up to tge amount rolled sometimes they want to move less spaces. Secondly the board is a maze. Players dont know where their goal is. So they must attempt to create a mental map of the board or watch others and remember how they move through the map. Finally players dont have one set path so they must decide which path is the best for their solution. I also incoperated strong cordination and negotiation with other players and its a fun time
I like the added choices you've integrated - sounds like a lot of fun! Thanks for sharing ☺
@@cogitodesign its called scp the board game if your interested
@@coocoo3336 Great, I’ll check it out ☺️ Thanks!
It's an exceptional mechanic especially in games geared to younger players. This was a great video...well done!!
Aw thanks very much, I really appreciate your kind words! Very pleased you enjoyed it ☺
TATSU (a game very similar to BACKGAMMON) uses the two dice roll and move method of using dice individually for sepertate player piece moves, or combining to move a single piece future. A very tactical game.
Thanks for the heads up! I’ll check it out!
Great example, thanks for sharing!
I really like Sagrada in the way that you roll dice and draft them but each player chooses which dice they want based on their specific player board. No same colours can go next to another of the same either vertically or horizontally and this applies to number values as well. Each player chooses which dice they'd like to put on their player board in turn order and it goes from there.
Then of course, there's Catan that I dislike with a passion as it's just rolling (and praying) for resources. A game similar to Catan that I like way more is called Machi Koro where each player can buy from a pool of cards that has a number on it. The number represents the roll and if the dice get rolled for that amount, the player who owns that card gets (or takes) money. It's a much better way of controlling the randomness of the rolls in my opinion.
Thanks for your comment ☺I completely agree about Sagrada- it's much better to have player agency over what dice you choose etc rather than the game deciding for you, leaving you with no interesting decisions to make. I haven't played Machi Koro but I like the sound of how it helps controlthe randomness. I'll have to look out for it! Thanks again!
If you like Machi Koro and want something more substantial, check out Space Base.
@@MD-vs9ff Awh sweet! Thanks so much, I'll check that one out
@@MD-vs9ffnice, I’ll make sure to look out for that one! Thanks for commenting 😊
My sense is that calling "roll and move" a single mechanic that includes both Chutes and Ladders (all luck) and Backgammon (pre-luck, substantive strategy especially with the doubling cube) is not particularly useful nomenclature. It's an accurate description of both, but they are so different. I'm also less sure that the pre-luck version is really the default: the roll-and-choose-who-to-move with capture has been used in a ton of games.
Yes with over 5000 years of history this mechanic is almost certainly more complex than one name allows. I think the mechanic is fine but it has to match the theme and audience of the game. Too often it was include lazily as a simple to learn center piece for any game
Output randomness is certainly not inherently poor. Tabletop RPGs are chock full of it. I think Roll & Move is totally fine as long as it's not so simple as Snakes & Ladders (but even then, as you point out, it is a useful mechanic for kids etc).edit: oops I meant output randomness lol!
Thanks for commenting 👍
one way i worked around this was by changing how you use the results of the dice. you roll 2, then can either use one die, the other, both added together, or one subtracted from the other (sometimes even being able to move backwards). still luck based, but adds choice into it for strategy
This sounds like a great solution! Anything that gives back player agency and turns it from a post luck to pre luck decision is going to make gameplay more satisfying. Thanks for commenting!
Even Hasbro themselves are aware of the pain of classic Monopoly and release new versions either make fun of the classic game (like in the case of Cheaters Edition or Monopoly For Sore Losers) or try to improve upon it. Monopoly Builder for example uses much of the same mechanics as the original but adds Catan-esque resource management, building and trading systems. Or Monopoly Fortnite Edition (yes, really), which adds elements of push your luck and survival as players try to outwit one another by placing traps while attempting to avoid a "storm" which slowly swallows up the board.
These sound like interesting developments, thanks for commenting! I have to say, I'm probably a little biased against the game so I haven't tried many of the modern versions but the way you've described them makes me feel like I should give them a go! Thanks again!
I'm loving this channel! Very informative and thoughtful content. Thanks!
Thanks so much, we really appreciate you taking the time to say so!
I've often joked about designing a board game called "Roll and Move" that would have a basic roll and move mechanism, but there would be several subgames of different board game genres and the spaces you land on in the "roll and move" would tell you which subgame you take your turn in next. It's probably too conceptual to work but I'd play it if someone made it.
Sounds interesting!! I’d play it too 🙌
You just described mario party
Great explanation! I’m glad you mentioned the lack of forgiveness that hobby gamers have for roll-and-move, given how many people it has scared away from our tables! But you’re right that it probably doesn’t deserve all the vitriol it receives.
Thanks very much, really pleased you enjoyed the video 👍
The best roll and Move game is A Touch of Evil. Because
1. There are a lot of resources which can modify the roll
2. You can go many directions with varying rewards at different distances so you have interesting choice with both ‘good’ and ‘bad’ rolls.
3. Rolling a 1 grants you an event card so the worst roll is actually one of the best given how good events are.
Another good example is Spy Alley which has a resource that can modify your roll, and part of the board has a major deviation and choosing which path to take is a significant decision/ risk each time.
8:25
chutes and ladders may be of interesting decisions, but those might not be interesting decisions for us but for nature/god to decide :P
Roll and move mechanic still works for many people the same way gambling does -- magical thinking. It's not logical or rational. But for those who think "here comes a good roll", i.e. magical thinking, the ups and downs of good rolls and bad roles is enough for them to get into the game. I personally don't care for that approach, but I can see why others do because there's lots of magical thinking going on in our world today. Which is unfortunately a bit of a problem for humanity.
The kind of luck displayed in roll and move is certainly divisive. Personally, I prefer pre luck games but I can see the attraction of post luck games. In many ways, they’re far more popular- just look at all casino games! Thanks for commenting ☺️
Nicely researched and very informative thank you! Perhaps a more general point is that we should not necessarily evaluate mechanisms by some of their more prevalent or popular applications, but instead by their core characteristics. In this case, output randomness is not necessarily a defining feature of the roll and move mechanism and in fact if we consider some of the old classical games (backgammon, etc.)--as you have done in this explainer--then we see that roll and move can have a lot of strategic and tactical gameplay applications. Even BGG's description of the mechanism--which I believe is based on Engelstein and Shalev's book--corrects this "it's all luck" assumption. I am curious which is your favorite roll and move game? I'm interested in trying some of the racing games you mentioned. I don't have a great racing game in my collection so need to find a good one!
I couldn't agree more, the mechanic has certainly gotten a bad reputation from how it's been used in games but that doesn't make it a bad mechanic fundamentally. Personally I love backgammon having played it since I was a kid so guess that is my favourite roll and move game but that is a large part down to sentimentality of playing it with my dad as well as the game itself being good. Recently we've been playing a bit of Deep Sea Adventure which is a fun push your luck game and is super cheap to pick up and try. For racing games Formula D is a classic but may be a little dated now.
@@cogitoergomeeple4298 thank you!
Thank you for this video, it was a really interesting watch. Loved seeing Philosophia: Floating world on the video, looks beautiful and cannot wait for my copy to arrive.
Thank you, we're really pleased to hear you enjoyed the video and liked the Floating World content! Thanks so much for your support.
I just found this Channel and I absolutely love the hyperbolic humor
Thanks v much! 😆
I hope you are writing an exciting book. Fantasy, why not. You seem to have the vocabulary and articulation to do it.
Very nice video. Great use of knowledge.
The game Excape also have a nice twist. It got a push your luck aspect. Can't Stop is also a push your luck roll and move variant.
Thank you so much, we're very pleased to hear you liked the video!
I haven't played Ur, but I feel like it is a decidedly better game than Backgammon, multiple d4 where 2 sides count as giving moves is massively bell curved. And being able to determine how to apply those is even better. It's specifically the I rolled and that number is the amount the piece moves. Is so much worse. It's weird how the worst of thousands years old games are the ones I've actually heard of and played
Interesting, perhaps there’s an alternate reality where no one has heard of backgammon and everyone plays Ur 😂
Always a pleasure to watch « old videos » from the time I didn’t even know you existed 😊 Hope to play again with you soon !
Thanks so much for your support! For sure! 🙏
@@cogitodesign Your videos are very inspiring, actually I think I'll record a podcast about the subject of this one. I'll make sure I mention your work :)
@@Nixx_BoardGames Wow, I'm flattered thanks so much! A podcast on this sounds awesome 👍 Make sure to share the link with me and I can share it on our social media 🙌
Love the vid! I will definitely add it to my next game because players will also be given other decisions instead of movement and you can win without even moving one space forward.
Really pleased to hear you enjoyed the video, thanks so much for commenting and good luck with your game design!
As a hobbyist, I did this mod: "Blood Rage Lite". It's awesome and free and it's designed by a genuine engineer gamer with no constraints but fun! Get it, for free, from BGG's Blood Rage file section.
Good to know, thanks so much and cheers for commenting!
Based on the criteria outlined Settlers of Catan is Roll and Move, but the overwhelming consensus is that it is a fun game with a certain degree of freshness (freshness in regard to longer lived games like Monopoly or Candyland). Good video!
Wow, calling Catan a roll and move really stretches its definition as only 16,66% of rolls “moves” the robber charatcter 😅
@@legobil_ the definition given was a die is rolled and an effect happens. The robber is the most literal interpretation, but taking your resources or building is still considered "move."
In Catan all players are experiencing the effects of the roll simultaneously, and the extent of the effect has been decided by each player beforehand. Some luck is involved, but it's mostly calculation.
One of my al time favourite game (90% nostalgia but still), that uses this, in my opinion well, is Talisman
I’ll have to check it out! Thanks for the tip!
My game uses this as its main mechanic but lets the player chose how many spaces to move. The number one gets with the dice is only the max amount of spaces one can move in that turn. Its up to each player if they want to advance all the allowed spaces or stop at some point.
That's a nice way to give players some more choice in the game 👍 Thanks for commenting!
damn, I've been looking for a video game toolkit but for board games channel, and I think I've found it, thanks for the interesting video
Edit: oh and sub
Really pleased to hear you're enjoying our content! Thanks so much for your comment ☺
Amazing. Congratulations.
Thanks for your comment, much appreciated and glad to hear you enjoyed the video!
Yeah great video great call out to so many games fair play on the amount of research
Thanks so much! We love playing games so the research is one of the best parts of making these videos!
Gameplay mechanics sort of resemble storytelling devices in a way that some of them are harder to implement correctly than others.
I like this analogy!
@@cogitodesign Best analogy I can think: Roll and move as a gameplay mechanic is as hard to implement as third act misunderstanding as a storytelling device.
High rolls must not rule, and low rolls must not suck.
This is it! this is the final key for The Dracula by Bram Stoker Game. I'm using this mechanics with a super twist because I believe in your final recommendations. It's simple and fun and super easy to teach. Game designers needs more imagination and creativity. Great video. Thanks!
Awesome, I'm looking forward to hearing about the super twist on this mechanic! Thanks as always for your support ☺️ I hope your designing is going well!
@@cogitodesign I hope it meets your expectations. See you soon
thanks for this video. very informative
No worries at all, I’m pleased you found it informative 👍 More to come soon!
i would add the new & restored key to the kingdom, a roll & move that mitigates the luck of dice.
Thanks for your comment! I haven't played that game, will have to check it out!
Good video!
I've had an adult playtester tell me once, that they only like playing games, that heavily rely on luck, because those were more satisfying to cheat in. Lol
Needless to say, their favourite game was Monopoly.
🤣🤣
Mechanism = a process, method or means to derive an outcome
Mechanic = a person that works in a garage
Chip Theory games has released burncycle at the time of this comment. The game has roll and move, but the way it is implemented is quite unique. Players are given an amount of power for their robot they are controlling, and their power represents their dice pool. In order to perform actions (move, access terminals, open doors etc) the bots must allocate AP, which is done by choosing a number of dice (based on their power and upgraded dice they have unlocked). The player needs to split these dice between several actions during their turn, adding an element of resource management. The basic dice have blank sides, which can either be combined with another to gain a 1 result or saved for a future role, where any dice with a value rolled is used even if the value is in excess.
So lower value dice have some value over the upgraded dice, and you can guarantee results when you need to, or you can try and get exactly what you need and risk not hitting the action but getting rewarded if you do. There is also a secondary bot that needs to have AP assigned to it, which gives another place where actions need to be assigned while also giving a place to spend excess rolled results.
It's an interesting take on roll and move, because it is less about the movement- players will generally have plenty of movement to do whatever they need. It is more a mechanic designed to facilitate resource management and have a small element of push your luck that can be used in a pinch.
I haven't had a chance to play it yet, but that does sound like a really interesting twist on the mechanism! Thanks for sharing, I'll have to check it out!
Rajas definitely doesn't contain roll & move, at least not anything close to the traditional definition. I think it would be misleading if it was included in the list of game mechanisms.
3:04 This seems very similar to the game Hounds and Jackals we all saw being played by Sethi and Nefertiri near the beginning of "The Ten Commandments." Do you know anything about that game? I'm very curious about it.
Hi and thanks for your comment ☺I'm not sure what game they were playing I'm afraid but it sounds interesting. Will have to look into that! Thanks again for commenting and Merry Christmas!
The one thing more prevalent to "fun" in board games is player interaction via a common play area.
Pre luck, or roll and move, is generally bad but in games like Deepsea adventure or Formula D it's the changing game state that gives agency. Snakes and ladders, or monopoly (but not goose chase) it doesn't matter where other players are. There is no interaction at all.
At least in monopoly you have half the time a choice to buy or not to buy. In catan, there's even less of that.
The earliest post luck game is probably backgammon (or ur but the rules on ur are so vague I can't consider it a board game).
Yes I agree, Deep sea adventure in particular is a great use of the mechanism. One thing that stands out there is how quick games are, I think randomness gets more frustrating the longer a game lasts. Thanks for your comment.
@@cogitodesign
Interaction is key.
why Talisman was not mentioned? It is getting its 5th edition and its still just roll and move where the only decision is whenever you move to left or right and then stuff happens and you might roll again.
It is a great example how people nitpick at luck of dice, but don't complain about luck of draw of the cards because the limited outcomes unlike a dice where the same roll might show up n times in a row.
Thanks for your comment. I haven't played Talisman but I'll make sure to keep an eye out for it!
I dont think its inherently bad.
Maybe you roll many die and select which value goes where.
Maybe your character augments numbers or you use cards to augment the experience.
Backgammon uses roll and move for thousands of years and it's one of the deepest abstract strategy board games in existence. So, IMO, it's not a bad mechanic at all. Just modern designers lost their thouch how to use it correctly.
Agreed, I don’t think there are such things as bad mechanisms, just bad ways to use them. Backgammon is a good example as I think pre-luck mixed with roll and move can be quite an effective combo.
Any mechsnic is lame if it does no MAKE SENSE.
For example, during combat you plan, but self performance under stress does not always work as planned. Rolling dice is appropriate. This is why Battletech works so well. Positioning is deterministic, firing has randomness.
If you drive a car and you plan to turn left or accelerate, it is almost certain your car will react as planned. So using a card with deterministic outcome makes sense. This us why dice rolling in Formula D is outperformed by card decisioning in Downforce.
Sometimes dice automation makes sense. In Rebellion base box, strategy is done by players but tactical combat is automated using dice. In the expansion they added player cards to add a certain level of tactical decision.
If you see "how about baseball" it is a dice automation game of baseball. It can be fixed by using rock paper scissors to see if batter succeeds in achieving contact. Rock paper scissors is the best mechanism for a duel between player. This mechanism can be expressed in many ways.
In Battletech, mechs are a trade off between firepower, speed and armor. So by facing a mech with one design vs another mech with a different design, you are having a rock paper scissors implied in that mech design.
The "I cut you choose" mechanic is a glorified name for rock paper scissors where no one has guaranteed victory. The design trade off of Battletech is also rock paper scissors.
Roll and move only makes sense if you model how a butterfly flies and positions itself. Some people may like it. Some will not.
For example, make chess to have random teleports that serve as ejection seats. Chess players will hate it as it adds luck to a game where skill to achieve a deterministic outcome is the appeal of the game.
The whole point is the MAKE SENSE topic. With thematic games, it is clear.
But with ludic games it seems roll and move in Monopoly where you charge money based on where people fall, is more a game about setting a trap to catch flies. One player is the fly and the other is setting a trap. So both players compete to see who screws the other better. I do not find it appealing. But probably some people do.
I agree that matching mechanisms to what is actually supposed to be happening thematically is really important. You give some really good examples of this.
If you can script a game to only stop and ask for decision then these would run to completion without single prompt
I think this applies to games like ‘Snakes and Ladders’ completely but equally it applies to casino games like Roulette ☺️ Thanks for your comment!
@@cogitodesign well, in casino games you either bet between each round or are asked whenever you want to pay out or continue - scammier but more engaging.
Snakes and ladders only have illusion of agency.
@@Wolcik3000very true 👍
I can't agree with geoff engelstein here. I think the mechanic is inherently bad if it's purely randomness. It's not even that you make a choice and randomness determines the outcome or randomness determines your choices so it's neither input or output randomness it's just pure randomness. I think some mechanics are inherently bad and making some interesting design choices will likely end with a game still worse than it could have been using better mechanics
I should clarify if you only have one pawn it's inherently bad . Otherwise you. Have an element of choice
I have to say in some ways I'm inclined to agree with you. It is a mechanic that we have seen done badly so many times so whenever I see it has been put in a game my initial thought is that it is most probably a mistake. That being said, I feel like with a few adaptations there could be a way of using the mechanic thematically but it would have to be done in a game where randomness thematically makes sense. It's not roll and move but the push your luck mechanic from Deep Sea Adventure comes pretty close to this I think. Thanks for your comment!
@@cogitodesign well I feel bad that I commented what I did because the rest of your video dealt with some of what I said pretty well. Dice can be exciting but I can lead to some feels bad moments when an opponent with only the faintest chance managed to hit in undaunted for example.
Still I loved this discussion of the mechanic, the new things I learned about the history of board games, and some new options to consider. Thank you
@@zmollon Thanks so much, I’m really appreciating your thoughtful comments and ideas. I love discussing board games with fellow enthusiasts!
what about Risk? or D&D?
Yes both of these use post luck and dice rolling very effectively 👍 Thanks for commenting!
Formula D is good modern game with roll and move as a main mechanic
That’s an excellent example! I think they do a really good job of adding in player agency to dice rolls by using dice with a range of side numbers 👍
What is the game seen in the intro?
Rajas of the Ganges! A great dice rolling/ worker placement game set in historic India. When you roll your dice you assign them to different actions so there’s that element of agency rather than just luck. I’d recommend playing it for sure! Here’s the link to the game on BGG: boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/220877/rajas-ganges
forbidden
2:20 song? 🤔
agreed
Great channel. So I like roll & move. A lot of my favorite games include it: Monopoly, Talisman, HeroQuest, Clue, just to name a few. I unashamedly defend Monopoly as a great classic. Why? People who hate it probably are not playing using the rules. The game isn't that long usually, maybe an hour or hour 1/2. Play by the rules as printed, don't put money on free parking and all that nonsense. To criticize Monopoly's dice mechanic is to criticize dice mechanics as a whole, or games with luck factors. You can have a bad run and not hit properties, but that doesn't happen all too often. You could introduce homebrew rules by dealing out a number of properties to players to make things more balance if need be. I think people are just mad because they are not good and striking deals and they lengthen Monopoly by hours by using free parking as a lotto, which ruins the game.
I completely agree- the house rules are a major problem with people’s enjoyment with Monopoly. I understand and appreciate your position. If you’re interested in the game, I put together a series of videos on the history of the game, why people love it/hate it etc. It’s called ‘Terrible Game or Timeless Classic?’. Here’s the link: ua-cam.com/video/_Vg4iHPGpG4/v-deo.htmlsi=9GqAj4VJpwWKuFGN Thanks so much for commenting 😊
Yes! I love monopoly and once I taught my gaming group how to play it RAW it became a favorite. Not putting properties up for auction if a player passes on buying kills the speed of play.
@@akacaleb the auction part is a lot of fun, players getting into bidding wars.
@@jshepherd1102 yup! And makes people spend money.
I think snakes and ladders isn't a post luck mechanic. It is just simply luck.
I think it’s fine but only if there’s other choices or inputs u can do to either manipulate the dice or actions you can do afterwards or between roles to have some form of skill or tactics and not just luck. For example snakes and ladders is the worst game of all time imo it’s only purpose is to introduce the dice rolling mechanic to kids
I agree completely! Mitigation can change the luck factor and make it feel much more input randomness rather than output randomness-based. It's not my go-to mechanism when designing but I think it can be used effectively. Thanks for your comment!
my game is roll to attack
This sounds interesting, would love to hear more about this! Thanks for commenting!
Ludo is goated
Great video. Tho it sounds like you are talking in a hollow space. A bit disturbing. Other than that... nice. :)
Thanks, yes we’ve just got a new mic and we’re still working through the kinks!
6:20
technically its not balanced, first to move still has the advantage :P
At first I was thinking, "oh good pre-luck and post-luck should be much less confusing than the typical terms (input and output randomness" then you went on to use those terms exactly opposite how I intuitively expect.
You used "pre-luck" to mean a decision made AFTER the luck happens and "post-luck" to describe a decision made BEFORE the luck happens.
Wtf?
I think you title is misleading. Many games use randomness. The issue with games like Monopoly is the lack of agency; you actually make this point towards the end and it is the really issue here. For example, the royal game of Ur is actually interesting despite the randomness. I also don't think it really matter whether you have pre-luck or post-luck either; it's how it's implemented with the rest of the game. In fact pre-luck might be a bit easier to get right!!!
Allow player to statically move 3 spaces or rolling a D6. Solved.
Candyland isn't exactly roll and move. And it is easily fixed by having more than one card.
Fair enough, it’s been a while since I looked at the rules to that game!
There's no such things as not allowed in game design, only people who think they know better telling you how you should be designing games. I have created a roll and move game that is very popular with "new" gamers. The game design world needs to beware of groupthink and only catering to a certain type of gamer. My two cents.
Agreed, how have you used the mechanic in your design?
Following. That was a pretty bold statement. I am intrigued to see what you came up with.
I completely disagree on one point. A game that is hazardous as a main mechanic is deeply unfair. It's literally the idea. Some will advance, others not, stuff happens, then one player wins because of complete randomness. Luck is profoundly unfair. The nature of advantaging some and not others is profoundly antagonist to justice, equality, and fairness.
For that reason, and maybe the fact that luck and life are against me, I have been made hating board games as a whole, even to the point of hating TTRPGs like D&D which have a deep tendency of rulelawyer railroadery, while it was my hobby and passion at the time. I had a bad experience with one guy of this type. Because of this I have almost left games at all, while I was only lacking of narrative, fair games which I didn't knew existed back then.
Thought it was important to say. Nature is profoundly NOT just, NOT equal, and NOT fair. Making someone win because of their random characteristics is purely evil. It should be a crime. But I guess thats just my outcast / misfit pov in life.
roll and move is not nearly a bad as player elimination.
I agree, I'm not a of player elimination. It's just so unsatisfying when your out of the game early and have to just watch...
And Monopoly has both Roll and Move and player elimination, with many knowing the foregone conclusion of their own impending elimination, and just go through the motions of mortgaging more and more properties wishing for their boredom and agony to end as quickly as possible.
Snake & ladder isn't a proper game imho. Snake & ladder is as interactive as Bingo or slot machines.
Fair point! I can see the attraction to very young children though. I guess it depends on the definition of a game. I find it interesting to think that 2 computers could play snake and ladders endlessly just by generating random numbers!
what up its your boy comment
Ayooooo
A 40 year old having the same chance to win as a 4 year old isn’t balance, it’s low skill. A balanced game has the more skilled player win every time.
It is over used.
Roll to move is the best game mechanic as it reflects real life circumstance. It teaches us that we ultimately dont have control of the bigger picture of our existence and it teaches that no matter how bad things get they can turn around in the blink of an eye. And no matter how good things are. You can still fall.
The makers of Moksha Patam would certainly agree!
‘Common Era.’
Don’t culturally appropriate the Christian Calendar and then change the name. It’s AD not CE.
this is intriguing for sure. I have made my own version of the board game "RISK", and one feature I added was that after you have captured a continent, (we use money now as one-form of currency) you can pay $200 from your Defense Fund to choose a group of armies (minimum of 10) that are located on that continent and place a "special forces" token beside them to declare they are an exclusive "special forces" unit. Which means during combat, they are given an advantage with the dice during either the "attack" phase, or when they are being "attacked" by rolling two 12 sided dice and one 6 - sided die.
It sounds really interesting! I like it when relatively simple games have added layers of complexity to increase thematic immersion. It sounds like that does this well! Thanks for sharing ☺