Is Christ present in the Lord’s Supper? If so, in what way is He present?
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- The Protestant Reformers rejected the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation. Did they still believe Christ is present in some way in the Lord’s Supper? From one of our live events, Stephen Nichols, Derek Thomas, and Michael Reeves respond.
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The Heidelberg Catechism answers the question best. Eating Christ's body and drinking His blood is faith in and union with Christ
I have no idea what that means
That is a confused and confusing statement
I hear luther, I hear Calvin but where is the scripture in this conversation?
It's in John 6, and it refutes their views so you won't hear it.
NEVER EVER GIVE UP ON OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,………WHY?,…….. BECAUSE HE NEVER GAVE UP ON US,………AMEN
Lutherans really hate the term consubstantiation. I agree more with Calvin but I think out of respect we should stop using that term.
Yes
What term should be used?
@@1517the_year Sacramental union is the term I use, or you could just say the Lutheran view or in with and under, also real presnece is fine but the term isnt specific enough since technically refromed and Roman Catholics belive in real presence also
They loathe it!
Jesus Christ asked us to eat His flesh and drink His blood and where His flesh and Blood are then so is His Spirit. Please read the core relevant passages below of what Jesus Christ, the disbelieving Jews present and St Paul said in the Bible regarding the Lord’s Supper/Holy Communion/Eucharist, then the truth of how the Lord’s Supper can be celebrated as God intended.
John 6:51-56
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them.
John 6:60-68 excerpts
60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This teaching is difficult; who can accept it?” 61 But Jesus, being aware that his disciples were complaining about it, said to them, “Does this offend you? …64 But among you there are some who do not believe.”… 64 For Jesus knew from the first who were the ones that did not believe…. 66 Because of this many of his disciples turned back and no longer went about with him. 67 So Jesus asked the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom can we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”
Mark 14:22-24 The Institution of the Lord’s Supper
22 While they were eating, he took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.”
23 Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, and all of them drank from it. 24 He said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.
1 Corinthians 10:15-16 - St Paul
15 I speak as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ?
1 Corinthians 11:19 -20 & 29 - St Paul
19 Indeed, there have to be factions among you, for only so will it become clear who among you are genuine. 20 When you come together, it is not really to eat the Lord’s supper… 29 For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves.
The way to celebrate the Lord’s Supper as our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ intended is to be a member of the Catholic Church or Orthodox Church. Catholic and Orthodox Priests have received the Sacrament of Holy Orders by a Bishop of apostolic succession and thereby have the faculty to consecrate bread and wine to become the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. There is no other way to obey God’s request to eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ. In the Sacrament of Holy Communion one receives Jesus Christ’s corporeal flesh and blood and His Spirit. Our one true God is most gracious and wise and one should lovingly accept His divine gift because “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you” (Jesus Christ).
God bless you
Chris
We eat and drink Christ, but it's a mystery, He's actually in the elements through the Holy Spirit. It's the real presence
God is incorporeal and omnipresent, so “the right hand of God” is figurative language for power and authority, as Luther told Zwingli.
The fundamental mistake Reformed thinkers make in establishing this view is assuming there remains a distance between earthly worship and heavily worship during the Eucharist. The bread and wine are not body and blood because it "descends" to us, but rather because the liturgy is a very real junction between heaven and earth. Christ neither descends, nor do we ascend. Instead, we are together mystically such that the altar of sacrifice is both heaven and earth at once. The Reformed error is at heart a misguided separation of heaven and earth, such that it implicitly denies the Kingdom of Heaven in our midst.
Its clearly the view of the catholic church that Christ descends, John O’Brien’s The Faith of Millions:
"When the priest announces the tremendous words of consecration, he reaches up into the heavens,, and places Him upon our altar to be offered up again as the Victim for the sins of man. It is a power greater than that of saints and angels, greater than that of Seraphim and Cherubim.".
Also, as you said, Catholic church claims that the real body and blood is offered in the altar of sacrifice, but this was already completed and consumed at the cross, not at the altar of sacrifice in a catholic church communion.
Surprised that no body has comment in this.
@@aldocastromx you must take up the first paragraph with the Catholics. I don't hold to their theology, and can't speak to it.
You should take up the second paragraph with the disciples of the Apostles who taught it was the body and blood, and an atoning offering.
Ligonier posting a W???
At communion, where are we looking at, the cross, the ressurected Christ, or our future ascension and being with Christ?
We are looking at His remind them that soon He would die and the bread broken and the wine should remind them of His body and blood that soon He would give for payment for the sins of all believers. Is a request to us to remember His grace to us. Thank You Lord.🙏💕✝️💕📖
@@olgaburgos7780 Why add to what Jesus said. Whether we remember Him in any of those ways. Sure we can remember Him in those ways. Nothing wrong with that. But how about just remembering He is or Messiah our Lord and one day we will eat with Him again. I don't believe He wants us to focus on what's done but on what will be. Other than knowing what He has done cleanses us from the sin that separated us from the Father through the sacrifice He made. We're kind of saying the same thing just the focus is lacking on seeing Him again. The word teaches us to stand fast in the faith. Not so much what was done on the Cross. That's the simplicity of the gospel. But the life empowering He gives us to live life of faithful servants and children of God. This is our assurance in what He did on the cross. That's why we will have the cup and bread again with Him.
Confessional Lutheran believe Christ is present physically and spiritually in the elements. How? We don't know and that's ok. We will take Christ at his word when he says, "This is my..."
perhaps we should depend on scripture here. John 6 is Jesus telling us very plainly and exactly what communion is.
Also, the characterization of what Catholics believe about the sacrifice of the holy mass is not correct.
Why do you think that John 6 is talking about communion? I know it has similar language about flash body eating, etc. but does that necessitate the same as the Eucharist? Or do you think it’s talking about the Eucharist for a different reason?
@@thomasthellamas9886 I guess my first answer would be that I have never heard anyone claim that it isn't about Holy Communion.
I haven't heard any apologists who say, wait John 6 isn't talking about Communion...
It is about Jesus giving His Flesh and Blood for us in the New Covenant. He institutes this at the Lord's Supper when he says This is my Body and This my Blood. And then at Calvary his Body and Blood are Sacrificed. John 6 and the new passover meal of Bread and Wine become His Body and Blood for us because HE desired it that way. He is the one who said - unless you eat of my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you.
What do you think it is about?
Catholic Mass is NOT on-going sacrifice of Christ as claimed by Dr. Reeves. While his sacrifice took place on the cross two thousand years ago Scripture also refers Christ as lamb slain before foundation of the earth (Rev. 13:8). The Greek verb "slain" is in passive perfect tense. Unlike that of English Greek perfect tense indicates the action described by the verb (to be slain) was completed in the past with continuing effect to the present (from speaker/writer point of view). For comparison the Greek phrase "it is written", referring to Scripture, is also in passive perfect tense. Scripture was completely written in the past and remains written to the present. Whenever one buys a new Bible in any language, the same Scripture is reprinted, but it is neither rewritten nor it is on-going/continuously written.
roman catholics mass is celebration of jesus death. that is why they have jesus on the cross. they don't celebrrate Jesus resurrection. they also pray to a demon mary as well.
The Bible isn't translated from present-day Greek. Not sure why you said English Greek, No such thing. The Bible was translated from Koine Greek.
@@tstjohn777 It is koine Greek
Two things: first, the perfect tense does not indicate ongoing action, you’re thinking of imperfective aspect (aka i am going, I was going). The perfect tense indicates past action with present consequences, not present action. Second, the preposition απο found in Rev 13:8 means “from” or “out of”, not before. That would be προ, which is temporally focused.
@@AshtonSWilson I did NOt write perfect tense in Greek indicates continuous action. Pls read again what I wrote. Catholic Mass is not on-going sacrifice of Christ. He was slain before or from the foundation of the world with continuing effect to the present. The phrase “foundation of the world” refers to creation, where God created dimension of time and space. It makes no difference whether it is translated as from or before.
Thanks Pst. Stephen Nicols, Pst. Derek Thomas & Pst. Michael Reeves *4 Answering This Powerful, Blessful, Deep Question of "Is Christ Present In The Lord's Supper ? If So, In What Way Is He Present ?" Where I Say That Our Great LORD Jesus Christ Is Present With Us In The Lord's Supper Thru The Holy Communion Which We Take In Our Churches Where Apostle Paul Wrote on The Lord's Supper/Holy Communion In 1st Corinthians 11:20-34 Where Our Great LORD Jesus Christ Is Present With Us In The Lord's Supper Thru The Holy Communion Which We Take As a Dedication 2 The Death & Resurrection of Our Great LORD Jesus Christ* & God Bless Yu Pst. Stephen Nicols, Pst. Derek Thomas, Pst. Michael Reeves & Ligonier Ministries So Very Much.🙏🙏🕊️🕊️
Actually, it's not in the Lord's Supper/communion. One He is I've in us therefore with us always. Secondly, He says whenever two or more are gathered I Am in your presence. Thirdly He says; "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." There is no place in what Jesus said about communion that He will appear to us. So can we just stop with this idea of adding to it? He simply said," do it in remembrance of ME. Period, nothing added but fantatic religiosity
It's all by DECLARATION =...1) By Declaration Communion This is My Body My Blood; Rom Matt.26:26-28
. 2) We are Declared (Dead) to our indwelling DNA SIN, thru Baptism; Rom.6:2-11,(7)-- ...3) Declared (Acquited) thru Baptism NASB' Ref' Margin. 3) We are Declared (dead) to the Law...Rom 7:3,4,6...4) Thru Declaration We became (Alive)thru Baptism; Col.2:(13)...5)When Christ was 8 Days old He got circumcised, thru Declaration our hearts were circumcised thousands of years later..6) We are Declared Justified by Faith Rom' 4 5-8...7)By Declaration, Our Faith is Counted as Righteousness; Rom.4:5..8) Thru Declaration the Blood of Christ Justifies Us; Rom.5;9...9)By Declaration Christ's Obedience is Credited to Us; Rom.5:10 + 17+19...10)We are Declared Sanctified Heb.10:7-14 + 1Cor'.1:2... 11)We are Declared Called, Justified, (Glorified =The 2nd Coming)...12)Thru Declaration We have Ascended to the right hand of God; Eph.1:20+Ephesians 2:5,6...13)Thru Declaration The Resurrection of Christ is the Ratification that we have been Justified; Rom.4;25...
A spiritual presence maybe
Altho it can become a ritual
The people honour me with their lips but there hearts are far from me!
Really?
Uneducated baptist. Sect. That is what you are.
Ritual itself is not the problem. It's doing the ritual without taking it seriously or 'meaning it' . For example it is a ritual to come to church every Sunday or give tithe. It's about the intention behind it.
Jesus Christ asked us to eat His flesh and drink His blood and where His flesh and Blood are then so is His Spirit. Please read the core relevant passages below of what Jesus Christ, the disbelieving Jews present and St Paul said in the Bible regarding the Lord’s Supper/Holy Communion/Eucharist, then the truth of how the Lord’s Supper can be celebrated as God intended.
John 6:51-56
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. 56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them.
John 6:60-68 excerpts
60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, “This teaching is difficult; who can accept it?” 61 But Jesus, being aware that his disciples were complaining about it, said to them, “Does this offend you? …64 But among you there are some who do not believe.”… 64 For Jesus knew from the first who were the ones that did not believe…. 66 Because of this many of his disciples turned back and no longer went about with him. 67 So Jesus asked the twelve, “Do you also wish to go away?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom can we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and know that you are the Holy One of God.”
Mark 14:22-24 The Institution of the Lord’s Supper
22 While they were eating, he took a loaf of bread, and after blessing it he broke it, gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.”
23 Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he gave it to them, and all of them drank from it. 24 He said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.
1 Corinthians 10:15-16 - St Paul
15 I speak as to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ?
1 Corinthians 11:19 -20 & 29 - St Paul
19 Indeed, there have to be factions among you, for only so will it become clear who among you are genuine. 20 When you come together, it is not really to eat the Lord’s supper… 29 For all who eat and drink without discerning the body, eat and drink judgment against themselves.
The way to celebrate the Lord’s Supper as our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ intended is to be a member of the Catholic Church or Orthodox Church. Catholic and Orthodox Priests have received the Sacrament of Holy Orders by a Bishop of apostolic succession and thereby have the faculty to consecrate bread and wine to become the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. There is no other way to obey God’s request to eat the flesh and drink the blood of Jesus Christ. In the Sacrament of Holy Communion one receives Jesus Christ’s corporeal flesh and blood and His Spirit. Our one true God is most gracious and wise and one should lovingly accept His divine gift because “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you” (Jesus Christ).
God bless you
Chris
Jesus is the Paschal Lamb. To deny this is to deny Christ. And the name of the Church is the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church not the RCC. There’s 6 rites and 24 sui juris churches under those rites and all form the HCAAC.
Dr Brant Pitre gives an excellent lecture on this subject to help all of you understand the fulfillment of the Passover meal and why Jesus is called the Paschal Lamb and how that echoes all the way back to the deliverance from Egypt and why Christ said, it is finished. God bless!
It's all by Declaration. 1) Communion: by Christ's Declaration this is (My Body), this is (My Blood) Matt. 26- 28... 2) Declared (dead) to our indwelling DNA SIN; Rom.6:7 ...We are Declared (dead) to the Law Rom.7:3,4,6..3).We are Declared (Alive) thru Baptism; Col.2:13... We are Declared Justified; Rom.4:5-8 - Declared Justified by His Blood, Rom.5;9.…4)We are Declared Sanctified Heb 10:7-14 .. also 1 Cor.1:2, ...We are Declared called, justified, glorified; Rom. 8;30...We are Declared Ascended with Christ at the right hand of the throne; Eph. 1;20 & Eph.2:5,6...We Declared born again; 1John 5:1...We are Declared Justified by the Resurrection of Christ; Rom.4;25...We are Declared as saints; Rom.1:5,6,7 - 1Cor'.1:2....
In the gospel of John, Jesus Christ said his body is real food and his blood real drink. The Jews knew exactly what he meant and said talk such as this is hard to endure. It goes on to say Jesus lost many followers that day and among them was Judas.
That's why as an adult I choose to be a Roman Catholic Christian. I believe that Christ is present body and blood, soul and Divinity in the Eucharist. It is a real presence. That is why more and more Catholic Churches have perpetual adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. If you read the early church fathers they will talk about the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Catholics from the early years through the middle ages have believed it because we believe the words of Jesus Christ. I choose to be a follower of Christ. I do not want to walk away from what Christ taught.
4:04
Who is Luther that what he likes or dislikes carries any authority?
I can answer that question in less then a half-hour that you seems to take, and most of the other panelists also. Christ is present in everything through the Holy Spirit.
5 mins between 4 people is too long for you?
So there is no difference between the Lord’s Supper and having a sandwich for lunch ?
"Is Christ present in the Lord’s Supper? If so, in what way is He present?"
Kind Sir...A very interesting Title of this video... Because...
One of my "Pet Peeves"; is to use a Title for a person's name. Not to mention the common euphemism "Christ Jesus", "Jesus Christ" or just "Christ"! Like this...
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (where is Jesus here? Huh?)
When will Christians learn; that the word "Christ" is a Greek coined word, they call "Christos"; which is a translation of the Hebrew word "Messiah"! And incidentally: 99% of all Jews for 2,000 yrs; have adamantly denied that Jesus WAS their Messiah! But they are dead wrong!
And over time; writers, preachers and the Christian World; uses the title word; as IF it was the "name" of God. Yet it is ONLY a title; NOT a name. Worse...it is common now; that MOST Christians rarely ever use the word Jesus ("Yeshua" in Hebrew) any more. But worse; many WILL use Christ like that verse above.
Yet Jesus said...John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
End of Story and I rest me case...
...In any case kind Sir, Please Pray OFTEN and Praise Jesus OFTEN; for He is the ONLY true "God Almighty"; there will ever have been. And may Jesus bless you and yours always. AMEN!
You're arguing over words. Christ is Elohim, Elohim is God, Jesus is God, Jesus is the Christ, Christ is the Holy Spirit. There are people like you who say Jesus name is not Jesus but Jehosua or it could be Iesous or Justus according to different languages. So perhaps we must stop with the exacting of His name or title and just unite in His person. For that is what it really means to believe in Him.
@@tstjohn777 Thank you for the reply kind Sir.
I would reply...however I never debate nor argue over anything. Because I believe Jesus (who IS God) does not want us to do that.
Thus, I will say with Christian love, "We will agree to disagree!"...
And go our ways. May Jesus richly bless you and yours forever.
Amen!
I think these men are basically right about the Lord's Supper.
On the one hand, Roman Catholics and Lutherans go too far in saying that the body and blood of Christ are literally present at the Supper.
But on the other hand, most evangelicals go too far the other way by seeing the Supper simply as a memorial of the death of Christ.
We do better to say that something deep and spiritual is happening to us when we eat it, even if we reject, as we should do, the idea that the literal body and blood are present.
A middle path then?
@@allopez8563 I would say so, yes.
The question is not if the literal body and blood are present during the supper, the reformed, Lutherans and Catholics would agree with “literal” presence. What the question is, is namely: in what mode do we eat of the true body and blood of Christ?
@@devothebot3008 What do you mean by mode?
@@maxaplin4204 Jesus spoke in absolutes; hot or cold, with him or against him, sin or not sin.
Do you consider that the Bible gives explicit doctrine?
What a load of confusion!
The communion is only symbolic ,to remember His soon death for them and His the repentant believers. He is the bread “ Body”that gives life and the Vine “His blood”
To remember ,He said as He tells us to remember the Sabbath -Saturday Holy day.
@@olgaburgos7780 The Sabbath is grounded in creation. The 6 in 1 day pattern observed before the resurrection of Christ changes to a 1 in 6 day pattern after the resurrection. The Sabbath is not grounded in the Mosaic Covenant. The Lord's Supper is much more than a memorial. "Remember" is covenant language.....and Christ initiated His new covenant with the Lord's Supper.....He did not continue the Mosaic Covenant, which was always meant to be temporary.
@@carmensiekierke3579 the Xsanbath is grounded in the middle of the Ten Commandments, is grounded in Jesus keeping and bless it. It is God’s day of rest in His creation and if He commanded and kept it is pretty good for me.😀📖✝️😇🌺📖🙏❤️
By the way, Jesus even at His death tested on the zsabbath. Show me where in the bible Jesus changed the dYand where He told His disciples to keep His resurrection day for Him. Bye.
@@olgaburgos7780 No, the Sabbath is not grounded in the Ten Commandments. The Sabbath is grounded in CREATION. Marriage is also grounded in CREATION. By your comment, you do not understand what grounded means. The Sabbath and Marriage are creation ordinances. The Mosaic Covenant was always meant to be temporary. Olga, Moses worked for Jesus.....Jesus did not work for Moses. The resurrection changed everything, Olga. This is the NEW CREATION.
I have an idea, how about we stop with all the theological ideas. Man always takes what God says and adds to it a weight. Jesus said it simply. "As often as you meet do this in remembrance of ME.... Period.