My favorite part of this podcast is how every 5 minutes I have to rewind 90 seconds because I get lost in my own thoughts and conversations with myself, really dense stuff, really makes you think, has not had a single uninteresting guest, inspires me to be better, to put myself out there more in conversations with those around me, 10/10 show, really amazing what you’ve done
Best podcast on the internet right now. Learning so much and it was really interesting hearing this man’s story. The hour and 40 minutes truly flew by.
I really appreciate this conversation. He's not the most polished speaker/doesn't have the most coherent line always, but I find that pretty refreshing: it seems like he's still in the middle of figuring things out and sifting through his past and present. It's useful to hear from somebody who is not drowning in irony or solid in a specific worldview.
I agree. I think he is actively resisting cogency and presuppositions. It’s not surprising that his journey for answers has brought him back to himself-that his quest is now an inner quest. We all need wider permissions to change our minds and admit that we don’t have answers.
@@marcellinawalker3139 but he has an answer - the meek shall inherit the earth & there shall be a golden age because "there's probably some dialectical material explanation for it all, that's just how it works, it's a pattern."
52:06 i know josh asked him the question and he answered, but he’s out of the blue very confident that ecological collapse wont happen, nukes wont fly, superbugs wont hit, AND that we’re gonna have a golden age. Conveniently also everyone thats tapped into his wavelength are gonna survive and start that golden age.
It's a funny contrast that he's still "figuring shit out" when it comes to identity and ideology yet is supremely confident that the future of the world will be OK.
This is one of the best conversations posted on the internet, ever. There just might be a light to guide us out of the absolute insanity that is the fake, commodified, techno-feudal dystopia in which we live.
I think Joshua is so good at getting deeper with his guests because he doesn't challenge them. Ezra Klein is very good at challenging his guests through the pre-exisiting language of his debate, but Joshua has his guests unravel the strand and tugs on the end when they get tired. Also Caleb is a great guest.
I really hope Joshua becomes the Joe Rogan of the left... The world has too many alt-right podcasts, and we the far left need a similar level of propaganda spreading podcasters!
>Joe Rogan of the left "Y'all already had a joe rogan of the left, HIS NAME WAS JOE ROGAN!" -Shoe0nhead People keep forgetting the fact that Rogan used to be a SocDem for most of his life and infact supported bernie both in 2016 and 2020.
I'm genuinely trying to be open-minded, and honestly, there is a ton of wisdom in Calebs' words, but also some confusing, iffy, and even down-right terrible points. What really annoys me is him talking about narcissistic behaviours, but then splurting out narcissistic verbiage of his own. He is also far less sympathetic to leftist - which a lot of the other guest were also like (and I think is personally the best for interviews like this), but with less empathy or understanding of why they are like that.
I think its because he regards civil rights as a distraction supplanted by his idea of the invisible ruling class (technocratic corporations) to prevent any means of solidarity within labour movements in favour of culture war... which yea is easier for a white guy living in suburbia and makes a living shitposting within said corporate controlled economy to not look at how a black woman, social service dependent veteran or member of migrant family seeking solace from America's forever wars might see things differently. But I'm sure Citarella will bring another white boy on to explain it better.
I also *conceptually* agree with his “you have to engage with these people (nazis) and ask them questions until they have reached their own level of cognitive dissonance” but to imagine this put into practice by anyone except a white man like himself is laughable. how can you expect a marginalized person like a black woman to have these conversations with these men without 1. experiencing dripping contempt from the nazi because they are a nazi or 2. have the dignity to even be willing to engage in these ideas. like i guess i sort of expect these guests to step out of their own shoes a bit & reflect on their beliefs for a bit but what do i know.
I agree. He's clearly very narcissistic. There's very little that isn't devoted to his own lens. He seems very egotistical about his own reasoning and IQ. There's very little insight into his own shortcomings. He's always the victim despite talking about agency.
This one was a miss for me. He spent the first 30 minutes rambling about how bad he feels that people didn't see the distinction between just "following the algorithm" versus his version of "following the chain of logic," which to me is a distinction without difference. He's upset that his logic led him to an unsavory place and it sounds like he wants an apology from the world for his own views. But worse is that he didn't really have much new to say. I think most people who engage in the casual study of online politics can see that its easy to put people on a slippery slope to radicalization. For the right, its as Faraday describes. For the left, its a conveyer belt to virtue policing and social clout chasing. But this episode sort of props this guy up as an overlooked voice that needs his own Christmas special.
I disagree, I think it's pretty clear that he's upset that he was used as a tool to further a narrative of a totally deterministic right-wing pipeline. "its easy to put people on a slippery slope to radicalization" is exactly the narrative he's trying to challenge, and one that I think a lot of people on the left take as gospel.
@@egopoints6985 Not going to put myself in a position to defend or try to explain to you everything he says because he says a lot. His whole things seems to be frustration at having his agency or thought process removed from the equation in the conversation of radicalization. He does say his "story" was used as a tool of propaganda to prop up a narrative about why young men are drifting far right, and that he now sees algorithms as a simple scapegoat and convenient excuse to not pry deeper into these people's interior worlds or the material conditions they're living in. He's not saying he was duped, he is saying he was used. You see the difference right
1 hour 40 minutes of some kid saying how he has agency actually but then descibing how he got conned by online grifters lol. Oh at 1:30:00 he admits it at least lol
Thinking a lot about Contrapoints in this convo. What was it about the way she was able to present information that made it so effective, that helped to deradicalise many, many emerging neo-con right wing dudes? There's something about style and presentation and tone to learn from that.
Agreed, and it is so sad that she has left that part of her work behind (as she confirmed in a recent video). She presents as a run of the mill liberal these days.
@@IAmTheWalrus6700 I don't agree with that assessment. I think she has a pretty clearly reasoned and well articulated pragmatism that might skew liberal at a glance but is more an extension of the logic of her deradicalisation approach. If the revolution comes, she'll pick up a brick. She just has problems with the same arch-leftists that perhaps Josh Citarella does. I'd probably label her a social-democrat.
@@brat6969 Well, she has said explicitly in a recent video (one of her Tangents) that deradicalization is not how she spends her time these days. When she talks politics, she spends her time disproportionately punching left and herding votes for the Democrat party. I have not seen her articulate a pragmatism that is anything other than the standard arch-liberal one. If there are other places where she gives signs of still supporting radical change, I would genuinely like to see them because it would restore some of my faith in her, but I suspect you are being too generous. Also, if the most radical thing to label her is as a social democrat, given what that means now, where Bernie is thanking Dick Cheney for his defense of democracy, could just as well be to concede the point.
@@IAmTheWalrus6700 I think everything Faraday said in this talk about his own experience after coming out as a sort of political public persona could be applied to many other figures like Contrapoints. Like I can't even fathom to conceptualize the experience of what happened with her, being a philosophy major, getting out and just doing youtube videos that pretty much just align with semi-mainstream progressive politics with a well researched academic backing to it, pushback against right wing nutjobs like Peterson, and all of the sudden you're the focal point of what is now called "breadtube" and you are apparently now the leftist vanguard party, and now you are part of an international coordinated effort to push some leftist agenda by people that mostly garnered ideology and believes through osmosis on niche internet Forums with other mostly uneducated people on the actual details and political science of many of these ideologies, or even the material basis they were created and used under. I dont care what Contrapoints does nowaday, im thankful for her work, she never had to carry the responsibility that she inevitably got put on her, I don't wanna imagine the hatred, a visibly leftist trans person has to go through, I don't think she has that much value that her not being that outwardly political is so damaging or ruining my image of her, we can never know what these public personas are experiencing, and this is not an effort to vindicate anyone famous and fortunate, since I also think that you should just grow past dependence and expectations on content creators and the like. They never really asked to be thought leaders, they just did a video, unlike Joshua who is openly interested in fostering community, engagement and education, these leftist youtubers never were anything but a natural counter movement to growing right wing sentiment on here.
Caleb Cain is probably not the most well-spoken or highly-educated guest you've had on here (no shade, I imagine he would probably agree with me about this) but I really appreciate that you took him seriously and gave him the space to say what he wanted to say.
I love this omg, I was not interested in politics before your channel. I’m a spiritual UA-camr and thought most of the political people were just extreme or something. I’m so glad there is a channel not demonizing everyone 🥲❤ I literally watch these all the way through and feel like I’m learning so much! I’m gen z by the way. I like this guest you brought on very relatable in a way others are not to me! 🪷✴️🌌
I'm struggling with this one. Some really good points throughout, but also he still seems very emotionally and ideologically volatile and I foresee he will swing wildly between different factions probably the rest of his life (along with all the disdain and hatred as he leaves each of said groups because they were or weren't extreme enough for him or make him feel accepted and seen or whatever)-- but he still stinks of right wing prejudices leaking out all over his speech, so he will never stray far. Unreliable narrator. Doesn't make his experience invalid or mean we can't learn anything from it, though. Josh really wearing his researcher/professor hat in this one trying to keep things on track. As to the nature/nuture (agency or self-driving car in a funnel to hell)... por que no los dos? They can't predict exactly who or how many, but they can predict that a funnel will have a certain chance of success, so shoveling as many people into it as possible will increase the total converts to your ideology. It's like the concept of stochastic terrorism. Unpredictable, yet predictable. And a person can BELIEVE they have agency, while not truly having it (Age, for instance. Or predisposition, etc.) They can be hamstrung by misinformation, poor education, past trauma, and be ripe for being swept into the funnel easier than someone else. Once you're in, you've now got the algorithm working against you getting the correct information to find your way out. My frustration is that... for example: if the idea of racist language is abhorrent to you, it's going to take a LOT of exposure and chipping away at that before someone is able to get you to accept racism as an acceptable price to pay for a stable economy. You would nope your way out of that funnel so fast because it would not appeal to you. If, however, you're already kinda open to racist language even if you wouldn't admit it openly, much less work to get you to accept/ignore/embrace those dogwhistles.
I'm interested in this almost reincarnation rhetoric of 'things have to get worse before they get better' - it's come up a few times over multiple eps. I wonder if it's true. It's kinda like a psychological management tool to help face the feelings of annihilation we experience daily on the internet. What if it doesnt get better. What if empire just crumbles and doesn't lead to positive change. It certainly seems to have happened like that in the past - they just disappear and equally as shit things emerge.
Funny you call it reincarnation. I was thinking that it reminded me of the evangelical churches I grew up in. Revelations telling us that the war of Armageddon must come before Jesus can bring the Kingdom of Heaven to Earth. This guest even says that "the Bible talks about this". I think that true or not, it's a really powerful meme, one that has been with humanity as long as we've had writing and most likely even longer than that. That's why it's in all the ancient texts.
'it has to get worse before it gets better' I think accepts as a given that we aren't going to 'defeat' the current system. We can't move against or out of capitalism, so we must figure a way to move through it
The Roman Empire fell and that affected those in power the most, of course the people were affected, but most people just continued to live their lives. It wasn't the end of their world when their political structure fell, they picked themselves back up. I think thats the point trying to be made here.
@@crowned3100 This is historically inaccurate. I’d recommend reading about how drastically life in the British isles changed once Rome pulled out of there. With no access to the international trade that effectively was the Roman Empire, the British people had to fully abandon their new way of life which they’d been practicing for generations. No more Roman roads, pottery, copper, food, currency, building supplies, etc. This isn’t to say that Roman life was definitely better than the lives they went to after the withdrawal of Rome from Britannia. But the lives of everyday people changed almost overnight: abandoning cities and become much more poorly nourished. Hopefully the parallels to the modern neoliberal order are clear.
A lot of his first half asserting his personal agency seems to contrast with his firm belief in the upcoming social schism that hes so sure is going to happen. Still interesting though
Exactly. He has interesting things to say, but it's not very coherent. He's sure that he wasn't radicalized by the internet, but also the internet is the problem, we need to get offline. He knows racism is a problem, but also some immigrant cultures are incompatible with ours. Material conditions are a factor, but they aren't because some people overcome them.
Yeah, he must've bounced around many groups to be that emotionally internally knowledgeable about it. I think he knows how to speak to and about them in an empathetic way.
Josh should interview some left/Marxist thinkers who have something more to say about the material conditions we're living through / soon to live through, not just podcasters and aggrieved, left-ish critics who whine about the PMC and offer little more than venom for identity politics as their prescription for the crises ahead (looking at you Catherine Liu). Just my personal hope for the funnel to go a little deeper here. Keep it up though!
Seriously spot on re: journalists… working for the local paper 2016-2021 was frustrating on so many levels. You have to be ruthless to be taken seriously in that industry, or born into it
Genuinely appreciate his insights on dogma and the cultish tendencies of political factions today. However its interesting how hard he points the narcissism finger, because its clear he’s taking a lot personally, and you get the sense he wants an apology from everyone, or at least be recognized for being smarter than everyone.
Idk feels like he keeps contradicting himself on whether the pipeline or funnel requires agency or not an how inevitable it is, "its just math" "its not a pipeline" "its a funnel". Tbh it feels like that Always Sunny episode "its not a pyramid scheme its a reverse funnel system". Idk dude seems to be trying to hard to justify something but it aint clear what.
I think he is trying to justify his gullibility. He comes off as confusing because most people cant see the appeal of being indoctrinated into an ideology in the way he very clearly wants to. The fact that he keeps finding out that there is no end of the rainbow there but keeps trying is really wild to see. The fact that he can see that people around him want to “use” him (neo nazis, nyt journos, etc) but doesnt realize its because he is an obvious mark to take advantage of. Not because he holds any particular influence or power. He is just kind of dumb.
@matthewmcguire5564 i kept listening and it just kept going he even straight up says "oh I actually didnt have agency and many people dont" which was like the opposite of everything he said in the first half. Keeps just keeps flopping back and forth like a fish out of water.
@@egopoints6985whether intentional or not, i find the idea of simultaneously being with and without agency resonant - men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please. life is complex, you can make a decision on one level, and yet on another you can understand that you have no agency over the situation you're put in that determined the decision: this is deeply resonant with the reflections of my own experiences after my own deradicalisation. its also congruent with his views on providing information and building trust as integral to deradicalisation. that said, im not sure i want to cosign everything he's saying, or even most of it, wholesale given it is clearly sometimes contradictory and sometimes pretty clearly erroneous.
@@johndeere8004your comment is great, that is something really insightful, but I think you're giving the man too much credit on that one, it really just feels like he is dealing with a lot of cognitive dissonance
Sam Seder Michael Brooks and the Majority Report definitely saved me from falling into this ideological hole when I was coming up and confused and depressed. God bless them. This is a hard convo with a lot of frustration and loss and confusion. I feel for this guy
@@GuildistGuevara why not. There shouldn’t be any reason not to get all the freaks on the podcasts. If these people act as if they have some real substance they should be tested and debated and held to account anywhere and everywhere, think big
@ I also want him to interview Redbar and both people of horseshoe theory at once. Chris hedges. There’s all sorts of people who should always be interviewed why not especially if you live in a city
kind of off topic, but i’d be v curious to hear u speak with daniel harper about the alt right. prob one of the only ppl who has watched more online rightwing content than u without it being caused by belief in rightwing politics
@@TommyS1872thanks for the heads up. I raised an eyebrow at the Healy interview because he's always seemed like a pretty dumb guy and I was about to watch it
Speaking to the bit about users dropping the hard R and other slurs constantly. I think we might be at a point in internet history where we need to lobby big game platforms to start making users do gamer etiquette credentials. That is doing a course that take an annoying amount of time that gives you a code that you can attach to your gaming account that says you've done a course about being nice. Then these codes can be made burnable, forcing the user to recertify going through an annoying course over again if they get one of their etiquette codes burnt. Then the games/platforms can decide what level of etiquette via etiquette cert requirments they'd like in their servers/games. Might be a way to split up malicious and ignorant gamers I stopped playing online games a while ago because of how bad the chats would get, just stick to single player or story games.
He lost me at build trust with Nazis. Also, "THEY" is doing so much carrying in his dialogue, hard to follow. "Are you really not racist?" Way to show your whole ass dude lmao
Isolation causes this in the first place, building dialogues with them helps people do the work themselves as he said. Racial bias is also fairly universal and is different from people having full on black sun tattoos, which is why he was talking about how people placed in a foreign environment might react in a fearful manner even if they arent necessarily far-right.
If faraday only listened to ME he’d realize I’ve got the right cult
he would be a centrist by now
I think he should shave
@@ploob906 ploob
The people demand Nick Mullen on the pod
If this happens I will be so happy
Seconded
absolutely. also, I'm gay
Doom Scroll fans yearn for the Mulldog, but what would the discussion be about?
If he can be on and do his skit on holocaust denial Joker I will be very happy
My favorite part of this podcast is how every 5 minutes I have to rewind 90 seconds because I get lost in my own thoughts and conversations with myself, really dense stuff, really makes you think, has not had a single uninteresting guest, inspires me to be better, to put myself out there more in conversations with those around me, 10/10 show, really amazing what you’ve done
Best podcast on the internet right now. Learning so much and it was really interesting hearing this man’s story. The hour and 40 minutes truly flew by.
I really appreciate this conversation. He's not the most polished speaker/doesn't have the most coherent line always, but I find that pretty refreshing: it seems like he's still in the middle of figuring things out and sifting through his past and present. It's useful to hear from somebody who is not drowning in irony or solid in a specific worldview.
I agree. I think he is actively resisting cogency and presuppositions. It’s not surprising that his journey for answers has brought him back to himself-that his quest is now an inner quest. We all need wider permissions to change our minds and admit that we don’t have answers.
@@marcellinawalker3139 but he has an answer - the meek shall inherit the earth & there shall be a golden age because "there's probably some dialectical material explanation for it all, that's just how it works, it's a pattern."
52:06 i know josh asked him the question and he answered, but he’s out of the blue very confident that ecological collapse wont happen, nukes wont fly, superbugs wont hit, AND that we’re gonna have a golden age. Conveniently also everyone thats tapped into his wavelength are gonna survive and start that golden age.
It's a funny contrast that he's still "figuring shit out" when it comes to identity and ideology yet is supremely confident that the future of the world will be OK.
Caleb, thanks for putting yourself out there. I really appreciate your honesty. Keep asking questions, growing, and learning.
This is one of the best conversations posted on the internet, ever. There just might be a light to guide us out of the absolute insanity that is the fake, commodified, techno-feudal dystopia in which we live.
i am unemployed, i saw this at 12 seconds
also umemployed saw this at 6 mins
Employed, but day off, 8 minutes 😂
employed with ADHD saw this at 15 mins
I think Joshua is so good at getting deeper with his guests because he doesn't challenge them. Ezra Klein is very good at challenging his guests through the pre-exisiting language of his debate, but Joshua has his guests unravel the strand and tugs on the end when they get tired. Also Caleb is a great guest.
I really hope Joshua becomes the Joe Rogan of the left... The world has too many alt-right podcasts, and we the far left need a similar level of propaganda spreading podcasters!
In my head, Brace is Alex Jones, Josh is Lex Friedman, and the only thing that comes close to Rogan's influence is Chapo
>if only people were more retarded in our kind of way instead of their kind of way!
lmao
>Joe Rogan of the left
"Y'all already had a joe rogan of the left, HIS NAME WAS JOE ROGAN!" -Shoe0nhead
People keep forgetting the fact that Rogan used to be a SocDem for most of his life and infact supported bernie both in 2016 and 2020.
I'm genuinely trying to be open-minded, and honestly, there is a ton of wisdom in Calebs' words, but also some confusing, iffy, and even down-right terrible points.
What really annoys me is him talking about narcissistic behaviours, but then splurting out narcissistic verbiage of his own.
He is also far less sympathetic to leftist - which a lot of the other guest were also like (and I think is personally the best for interviews like this), but with less empathy or understanding of why they are like that.
I mean he is an American lmao that kind of comes with the territory
I think its because he regards civil rights as a distraction supplanted by his idea of the invisible ruling class (technocratic corporations) to prevent any means of solidarity within labour movements in favour of culture war... which yea is easier for a white guy living in suburbia and makes a living shitposting within said corporate controlled economy to not look at how a black woman, social service dependent veteran or member of migrant family seeking solace from America's forever wars might see things differently. But I'm sure Citarella will bring another white boy on to explain it better.
I also *conceptually* agree with his “you have to engage with these people (nazis) and ask them questions until they have reached their own level of cognitive dissonance” but to imagine this put into practice by anyone except a white man like himself is laughable. how can you expect a marginalized person like a black woman to have these conversations with these men without 1. experiencing dripping contempt from the nazi because they are a nazi or 2. have the dignity to even be willing to engage in these ideas.
like i guess i sort of expect these guests to step out of their own shoes a bit & reflect on their beliefs for a bit but what do i know.
I agree. He's clearly very narcissistic. There's very little that isn't devoted to his own lens. He seems very egotistical about his own reasoning and IQ. There's very little insight into his own shortcomings. He's always the victim despite talking about agency.
This one was a miss for me. He spent the first 30 minutes rambling about how bad he feels that people didn't see the distinction between just "following the algorithm" versus his version of "following the chain of logic," which to me is a distinction without difference. He's upset that his logic led him to an unsavory place and it sounds like he wants an apology from the world for his own views.
But worse is that he didn't really have much new to say. I think most people who engage in the casual study of online politics can see that its easy to put people on a slippery slope to radicalization. For the right, its as Faraday describes. For the left, its a conveyer belt to virtue policing and social clout chasing. But this episode sort of props this guy up as an overlooked voice that needs his own Christmas special.
You articulated that so well...unlike Faraday.
Good lord you nailed that
I disagree, I think it's pretty clear that he's upset that he was used as a tool to further a narrative of a totally deterministic right-wing pipeline. "its easy to put people on a slippery slope to radicalization" is exactly the narrative he's trying to challenge, and one that I think a lot of people on the left take as gospel.
@@K33ntanand yet everything he says ultimately undermines his argument when he admits he was duped and used
@@egopoints6985 Not going to put myself in a position to defend or try to explain to you everything he says because he says a lot. His whole things seems to be frustration at having his agency or thought process removed from the equation in the conversation of radicalization. He does say his "story" was used as a tool of propaganda to prop up a narrative about why young men are drifting far right, and that he now sees algorithms as a simple scapegoat and convenient excuse to not pry deeper into these people's interior worlds or the material conditions they're living in. He's not saying he was duped, he is saying he was used. You see the difference right
one of my favorite episodes so far! Really good stuff and full of empathy. I really appreciate the dialog
this has quickly become my favourite pod on the internet. trueanon>brace>josh
I think you may have your
1 hour 40 minutes of some kid saying how he has agency actually but then descibing how he got conned by online grifters lol. Oh at 1:30:00 he admits it at least lol
"You can crown someone with ideological truth, which is the greatest prize for an ideologue" is a phrase I will keep with me for a long time.
Thinking a lot about Contrapoints in this convo. What was it about the way she was able to present information that made it so effective, that helped to deradicalise many, many emerging neo-con right wing dudes? There's something about style and presentation and tone to learn from that.
empathy is a powerful skill
Agreed, and it is so sad that she has left that part of her work behind (as she confirmed in a recent video). She presents as a run of the mill liberal these days.
@@IAmTheWalrus6700 I don't agree with that assessment. I think she has a pretty clearly reasoned and well articulated pragmatism that might skew liberal at a glance but is more an extension of the logic of her deradicalisation approach. If the revolution comes, she'll pick up a brick. She just has problems with the same arch-leftists that perhaps Josh Citarella does. I'd probably label her a social-democrat.
@@brat6969 Well, she has said explicitly in a recent video (one of her Tangents) that deradicalization is not how she spends her time these days. When she talks politics, she spends her time disproportionately punching left and herding votes for the Democrat party. I have not seen her articulate a pragmatism that is anything other than the standard arch-liberal one. If there are other places where she gives signs of still supporting radical change, I would genuinely like to see them because it would restore some of my faith in her, but I suspect you are being too generous. Also, if the most radical thing to label her is as a social democrat, given what that means now, where Bernie is thanking Dick Cheney for his defense of democracy, could just as well be to concede the point.
@@IAmTheWalrus6700 I think everything Faraday said in this talk about his own experience after coming out as a sort of political public persona could be applied to many other figures like Contrapoints. Like I can't even fathom to conceptualize the experience of what happened with her, being a philosophy major, getting out and just doing youtube videos that pretty much just align with semi-mainstream progressive politics with a well researched academic backing to it, pushback against right wing nutjobs like Peterson, and all of the sudden you're the focal point of what is now called "breadtube" and you are apparently now the leftist vanguard party, and now you are part of an international coordinated effort to push some leftist agenda by people that mostly garnered ideology and believes through osmosis on niche internet Forums with other mostly uneducated people on the actual details and political science of many of these ideologies, or even the material basis they were created and used under.
I dont care what Contrapoints does nowaday, im thankful for her work, she never had to carry the responsibility that she inevitably got put on her, I don't wanna imagine the hatred, a visibly leftist trans person has to go through, I don't think she has that much value that her not being that outwardly political is so damaging or ruining my image of her, we can never know what these public personas are experiencing, and this is not an effort to vindicate anyone famous and fortunate, since I also think that you should just grow past dependence and expectations on content creators and the like. They never really asked to be thought leaders, they just did a video, unlike Joshua who is openly interested in fostering community, engagement and education, these leftist youtubers never were anything but a natural counter movement to growing right wing sentiment on here.
I hope that Caleb finds peace. It is a difficult time to be a person who has or is trying to have conscience and perspective.
Honestly the most genuine conversation from a young man being vulnerable about what he sees going on
Caleb Cain is probably not the most well-spoken or highly-educated guest you've had on here (no shade, I imagine he would probably agree with me about this) but I really appreciate that you took him seriously and gave him the space to say what he wanted to say.
refreshing to hear somebody not trying to be ironic or witty
best pod on the tube brother
I love this omg, I was not interested in politics before your channel. I’m a spiritual UA-camr and thought most of the political people were just extreme or something. I’m so glad there is a channel not demonizing everyone 🥲❤ I literally watch these all the way through and feel like I’m learning so much!
I’m gen z by the way. I like this guest you brought on very relatable in a way others are not to me! 🪷✴️🌌
I'm struggling with this one. Some really good points throughout, but also he still seems very emotionally and ideologically volatile and I foresee he will swing wildly between different factions probably the rest of his life (along with all the disdain and hatred as he leaves each of said groups because they were or weren't extreme enough for him or make him feel accepted and seen or whatever)-- but he still stinks of right wing prejudices leaking out all over his speech, so he will never stray far. Unreliable narrator. Doesn't make his experience invalid or mean we can't learn anything from it, though. Josh really wearing his researcher/professor hat in this one trying to keep things on track.
As to the nature/nuture (agency or self-driving car in a funnel to hell)... por que no los dos? They can't predict exactly who or how many, but they can predict that a funnel will have a certain chance of success, so shoveling as many people into it as possible will increase the total converts to your ideology. It's like the concept of stochastic terrorism. Unpredictable, yet predictable. And a person can BELIEVE they have agency, while not truly having it (Age, for instance. Or predisposition, etc.) They can be hamstrung by misinformation, poor education, past trauma, and be ripe for being swept into the funnel easier than someone else. Once you're in, you've now got the algorithm working against you getting the correct information to find your way out.
My frustration is that... for example: if the idea of racist language is abhorrent to you, it's going to take a LOT of exposure and chipping away at that before someone is able to get you to accept racism as an acceptable price to pay for a stable economy. You would nope your way out of that funnel so fast because it would not appeal to you. If, however, you're already kinda open to racist language even if you wouldn't admit it openly, much less work to get you to accept/ignore/embrace those dogwhistles.
Is this AI generated?
@@ErkaaJ what gave you that impression?
I'm interested in this almost reincarnation rhetoric of 'things have to get worse before they get better' - it's come up a few times over multiple eps. I wonder if it's true. It's kinda like a psychological management tool to help face the feelings of annihilation we experience daily on the internet. What if it doesnt get better. What if empire just crumbles and doesn't lead to positive change. It certainly seems to have happened like that in the past - they just disappear and equally as shit things emerge.
Funny you call it reincarnation. I was thinking that it reminded me of the evangelical churches I grew up in. Revelations telling us that the war of Armageddon must come before Jesus can bring the Kingdom of Heaven to Earth. This guest even says that "the Bible talks about this".
I think that true or not, it's a really powerful meme, one that has been with humanity as long as we've had writing and most likely even longer than that. That's why it's in all the ancient texts.
@AdrianMRyan v true. I guess we have to have hope that our beliefs will come to something.
'it has to get worse before it gets better' I think accepts as a given that we aren't going to 'defeat' the current system. We can't move against or out of capitalism, so we must figure a way to move through it
The Roman Empire fell and that affected those in power the most, of course the people were affected, but most people just continued to live their lives. It wasn't the end of their world when their political structure fell, they picked themselves back up. I think thats the point trying to be made here.
@@crowned3100 This is historically inaccurate. I’d recommend reading about how drastically life in the British isles changed once Rome pulled out of there. With no access to the international trade that effectively was the Roman Empire, the British people had to fully abandon their new way of life which they’d been practicing for generations. No more Roman roads, pottery, copper, food, currency, building supplies, etc.
This isn’t to say that Roman life was definitely better than the lives they went to after the withdrawal of Rome from Britannia. But the lives of everyday people changed almost overnight: abandoning cities and become much more poorly nourished.
Hopefully the parallels to the modern neoliberal order are clear.
A lot of his first half asserting his personal agency seems to contrast with his firm belief in the upcoming social schism that hes so sure is going to happen. Still interesting though
Exactly. He has interesting things to say, but it's not very coherent.
He's sure that he wasn't radicalized by the internet, but also the internet is the problem, we need to get offline. He knows racism is a problem, but also some immigrant cultures are incompatible with ours. Material conditions are a factor, but they aren't because some people overcome them.
True. at least he seems to recognize he's "conservative by character". @@Ryan-The-Grifter
@@Ryan-The-Grifter "Not very coherent" is incredibly generous of you.
literally my brain
thank u as always Joshua for the podcast
Every single one of these eps is so good, just tremendous stuff
Very insightful. +1 vote for Citarella as the left's Joe Rogan. He just needs a psilocin IV and some visible markers of steroid usage
im only 20 min in but this feel all over the place, like he keeps bouncing around between groups and I have no clue who he is talking about
Yeah, he must've bounced around many groups to be that emotionally internally knowledgeable about it.
I think he knows how to speak to and about them in an empathetic way.
I mean, that's kind of what podcasts are. A conversation on several topics.
Josh should interview some left/Marxist thinkers who have something more to say about the material conditions we're living through / soon to live through, not just podcasters and aggrieved, left-ish critics who whine about the PMC and offer little more than venom for identity politics as their prescription for the crises ahead (looking at you Catherine Liu). Just my personal hope for the funnel to go a little deeper here. Keep it up though!
Matt won’t talk on the radio right now 🤷🏽
This is so in line with my own experience, except I went left and stayed there
Made my day to listen, y'all are my favorite show!
After Dr. Cat Liu conversation this is my favorite one so far. Why? Because it's honest. Marx 101.
Your channel is so important
Seriously spot on re: journalists… working for the local paper 2016-2021 was frustrating on so many levels. You have to be ruthless to be taken seriously in that industry, or born into it
This comes at such a good time right before the election
over heard at work "millennials are obsessed with the idea that have to have an opinion"
Interesting chat dude. Enjoying the pod
Genuinely appreciate his insights on dogma and the cultish tendencies of political factions today. However its interesting how hard he points the narcissism finger, because its clear he’s taking a lot personally, and you get the sense he wants an apology from everyone, or at least be recognized for being smarter than everyone.
This is ageing well
Consoder having on Tony Chamas of the UA-cam channel 1Dime.
Do we know what company he is alluding to at 40:10?
“there was enough material condition”
I love how they used the weather machine in time with the opening of the young mans poor dark mind
Incredible work Josh 💯💯
Damn this is like therapy
39:19 LUIGI
Idk feels like he keeps contradicting himself on whether the pipeline or funnel requires agency or not an how inevitable it is, "its just math" "its not a pipeline" "its a funnel".
Tbh it feels like that Always Sunny episode "its not a pyramid scheme its a reverse funnel system". Idk dude seems to be trying to hard to justify something but it aint clear what.
I think he is trying to justify his gullibility. He comes off as confusing because most people cant see the appeal of being indoctrinated into an ideology in the way he very clearly wants to. The fact that he keeps finding out that there is no end of the rainbow there but keeps trying is really wild to see. The fact that he can see that people around him want to “use” him (neo nazis, nyt journos, etc) but doesnt realize its because he is an obvious mark to take advantage of. Not because he holds any particular influence or power. He is just kind of dumb.
I have no idea what his point is. He kinda sounds a little manic if im being honest. Josh did a good enough job, but first bad ep of the show imo
@matthewmcguire5564 i kept listening and it just kept going he even straight up says "oh I actually didnt have agency and many people dont" which was like the opposite of everything he said in the first half. Keeps just keeps flopping back and forth like a fish out of water.
@@egopoints6985whether intentional or not, i find the idea of simultaneously being with and without agency resonant - men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please. life is complex, you can make a decision on one level, and yet on another you can understand that you have no agency over the situation you're put in that determined the decision: this is deeply resonant with the reflections of my own experiences after my own deradicalisation. its also congruent with his views on providing information and building trust as integral to deradicalisation. that said, im not sure i want to cosign everything he's saying, or even most of it, wholesale given it is clearly sometimes contradictory and sometimes pretty clearly erroneous.
@@johndeere8004your comment is great, that is something really insightful, but I think you're giving the man too much credit on that one, it really just feels like he is dealing with a lot of cognitive dissonance
When was the last time this guy smiled? Such a bummer energy
This is a really good one.
Honestly what is this guy talking about? Is this some sort of Reddit dialect? What cult? Priest class? Genuinely confused.
The use of priest class makes me think he has read some Moldbug/Yarvin
yes, a lot of it is online political jargon.
he's using cult as a metaphor for political ideology, and the priest class as a metaphor for journalists.
lurk more
Why do i feel like josh was a therapist before he started this pod
Holy crap this is a name i haven't heard in years
It's a lot to take in
Sam Seder Michael Brooks and the Majority Report definitely saved me from falling into this ideological hole when I was coming up and confused and depressed. God bless them. This is a hard convo with a lot of frustration and loss and confusion. I feel for this guy
Michael Brooks forever
This was a really great episode. Maybe the best so far.
Ok Josh I want to see Curtis yarvin and rudyard lynch on this show thank you. I love this show a lot thank for it ❤❤❤
That is to assume Josh actually want's to have any serious right-wing guest lmao.
@@GuildistGuevara why not. There shouldn’t be any reason not to get all the freaks on the podcasts. If these people act as if they have some real substance they should be tested and debated and held to account anywhere and everywhere, think big
@ I also want him to interview Redbar and both people of horseshoe theory at once. Chris hedges. There’s all sorts of people who should always be interviewed why not especially if you live in a city
the birds and the rain in the background...
Crazy that’s a name I haven’t heard in years
Incredible
BOOYAH, THE KING IS BACK !
Super exhausting watch
:)))) loove this one soo much
class warfare explained in the first minute, cool guy cool talk
This dude is still around lol?
kind of off topic, but i’d be v curious to hear u speak with daniel harper about the alt right. prob one of the only ppl who has watched more online rightwing content than u without it being caused by belief in rightwing politics
As a former pot dealer, they do experience this 1:39:26
ty for this king
really mature
This man speaks in cliche
@@TommyS1872thanks for the heads up. I raised an eyebrow at the Healy interview because he's always seemed like a pretty dumb guy and I was about to watch it
Caleb for cult leader!
Jk. Really enjoyed this conversation.
Get Luigi on here
7:20 hold tf up. Who don’t you want living next to you? What people? Name names.
Bad empanada stay winning!!!!!!!!
He looks like homeshake
Get Peter Turchin on
Maybe the most impactful episode I've listened to so far 👍👍
How is this guy friends with literally everyone of note lol
ballin
new 2 u citeralla but ilu
Caleb shows very little insight and reflection. I fear he's still the narcissist he describes. Notice how he never enumerates his flaws in thinking.
Get uhh David McKerracher
Hiiiiiiii
hey dawg 8)
Interview sam hyde
Enfp vibes yay
Speaking to the bit about users dropping the hard R and other slurs constantly.
I think we might be at a point in internet history where we need to lobby big game platforms to start making users do gamer etiquette credentials.
That is doing a course that take an annoying amount of time that gives you a code that you can attach to your gaming account that says you've done a course about being nice. Then these codes can be made burnable, forcing the user to recertify going through an annoying course over again if they get one of their etiquette codes burnt.
Then the games/platforms can decide what level of etiquette via etiquette cert requirments they'd like in their servers/games.
Might be a way to split up malicious and ignorant gamers
I stopped playing online games a while ago because of how bad the chats would get, just stick to single player or story games.
Caleb dm me chief.
this might be mean. but this man seems like such a simpleton lmao
America in decline
He lost me at build trust with Nazis. Also, "THEY" is doing so much carrying in his dialogue, hard to follow. "Are you really not racist?" Way to show your whole ass dude lmao
Isolation causes this in the first place, building dialogues with them helps people do the work themselves as he said. Racial bias is also fairly universal and is different from people having full on black sun tattoos, which is why he was talking about how people placed in a foreign environment might react in a fearful manner even if they arent necessarily far-right.
Ugh, come on. The intro already featuring some lazy ass Ukraine excuses and you nodding in agreement…
It's an interview, not a debate.
Nodding is a way to encourage people to continue sharing, not a demonstration of wholesale approval