14:07 You are 100% correct. I’m Chinese here and from my experience these tone changes are actually left out of schools in China, but most natives very naturally make these changes without even realising.
I had many years of German in School and I speak Swiss German every day. But I never reached PhD-Level in both languages. There is so much outside of any language course you could probably design. Let alone things only done in local dialects. For example I learnd Spanish from a Teacher from Pucallpa, Ucayali, Peru. I learned "ll" as a "tch", so pollo (chicken) becomes potcho. But outside of Ucuayali it's mostly pronounced "y". Therefore poyo. If I ordered chicken in an Peruvian Restaurant they did not get what I wanted.
Why is it that UA-cam recommends me a random video from a channel I've never seen before, and mere hours later I see a channel I'm subscribed to reacting to the very same video?
I noticed the same. I started getting a Video recommended around 2 days before the raction video of Metatron's went public. Probably a feature of UA-cam's since reaction videos must somehow lead to more exposure for the video the reaction was made to. Otherwise they would just be a copyright infringement.
She has videos on Korean, too, awesome! I subscribed to her channel. I do have some books on Mandarin, too, & just haven't had the time to really get into them, but maybe I'll take them off the shelf.
I'm a native Korean and German speaker, but living in Guangzhou and Shenzhen, China since the last 27 years. I've picked up how to speak Cantonese which is the dominating spoken language here in everyday life, partly thanks to my personal efforts and my wife as well who is a native speaker of the local dialect. Though mostly referred to as 'dialect' , the actual difference between Mandarin and Cantonese is as German is to English. They only share the written formal language and the characters. The funny thing about those Mandarin speakers who moved to this area and stay for a relatively long time, I mean at least 10 years or even more, is that there are only very few of them who successfully learn the local dialect to a conversational level. One or two in a hundred at best, excluding kids. Cantonese has 9 tones altogether, including those entering tones. And the tone sandhi being explained in the vid is by far more complicated than compared with Mandarin.
@@mdahsenmirza2536 When a phonological change occurs with a tone in a tonal language, it is called "tone sandhi". There is no other term for it, that I am aware of.
Interesting, I went to that video and it showed that I already watched it right to the point where this viedo here stopped. It is great to see that UA-cam is actually giving the Viewtime of a reaction viedo to the original video. It totally makes sense, but probably was not easy to implement correctly. I was actually pondering to learn Mandarin just because it can't hurt to know something about the most commonly used language on Earth. A former boss of mine, which speaks it, told me, you can find Mandarin speakers in quite about every bigger town of this planet.
It is just that Metatron put the time segment into the link. It was Metatron that embedded the link to start where he left off in the video, nothing to do with UA-cam. Look at the link, it has the "t=x number of seconds" embedded, that's why it automatically starts you off where Metatron ended.
I speak, to varying degrees, 4 “tonal” languages: Japanese, Mandarin, Taiwanese and Vietnamese. So this is what I’m drawing on. I don’t know if she understands tone numbers. The numbers are a numerical value for something that’s inherently non-numerical. Obviously it’s not going to be perfect but it’s better than nothing. The 1-5 system is the boundaries of your NATURAL voice. The one you speak with. If your 5 is too high for you to consistently produce, it’s not your 5. Same with 1 and 3. It’s the boundaries of your natural speaking voice. If your voice is lower, the boundaries will lower. So the numbers are only useful person to person. Which may be a disadvantage and it’s also what makes documenting tone difficult, because everyone’s voices are different. If anyone disagrees with my thoughts, please say why, in curious to know Edit: spelling mistakes
I completely agree, and in fact, that is how I've always heard the tones be taught. Teachers normally say it is at the top of your normal speaking range. Her speaking range is quite low, while some other native speakers are considerably higher. And she didn't even get into how if you have two first tones in a row, the second one can sometimes be lower in pitch than the first one (but it doesn't have to be, and it varies by speaker). Actually, though, to be more precise, it's not at the high point in relation to your average range, but the high point of the range that you are currently speaking at that particular moment, in that particular sentence. It only needs to be high in relation to the words surrounding it. The first tone can even be quite low in pitch, if you want it to be, as long as the other words around it are correspondingly low.
@artugert 100% agree. I forgot to mention that as well. It’s definitely true that the pitch depends on the surrounding words: as long as Y is higher than X, thats more than enough. Tones are completely relative based upon your natural speaking voice, intonation, the pitch at which you’re speaking now, the surrounding consonants, any phonation that is present (c.f. Vietnamese + Mandarin 3rd tone), other surrounding tones. There’s a lot of complexity to tones that I feel she didn’t talk about. And for that reason I personally think that her knowledge of phonology is lacking. Phonology is the area of linguistics I’m most interested in and know the most about so this was telling to me personally
@@justakathings I'm really interested in phonology too. I've yet to see anyone on YT getting really deep into Mandarin phonology. (If you know of any, please let me know.) I thought for a minute that she was about to get into some more interesting stuff, but was disappointed.
@artugert completely agree with everything. Rita Mandarin Chinese is decent with phonology from what I remember. But personally I want a really DEEP deep dive such as (off the top of my head) the zero onset in Chinese languages. Just that is really interesting because it has such wide variation. I want numbers like VOT and how that affects things, the interplay between tones and vowel length etc. I want someone like Dr Geoff Lindsay, who’s amazing for English phonology, but for Chinese.
@@justakathings I totally agree! I love Geoff Lindsey's content, too. I've thought about creating a Mandarin learning channel some day and getting deep into that stuff. Not sure when I'll have time, though. IIRC, Chinese Zero to Hero has gotten into some linguistic stuff in Mandarin, and I think Glossika, too. I think Rita gets into it in her paid course, but I haven't purchased it. But, like you, I would like to go deeper. What's VOT? I don't think I've heard of that. Edit: Never mind, just looked it up. Apparently it's Voice Onset Time. I'll have to look into that. Thanks.
14:41 Sounds like a bizarre statement to be honest. Just because it doesn't have stress doesn't make it simple, I mean fact alone that it has four phonemic tones makes it quite complex I'd say. And stress-determined vowel reduction is typical of English, but English has quite an unusual phonology, and the phenomenon is not at all universal to languages that have stress.
I must say Metatron, and I won’t lie, I don’t even know the reason necessarily for what I’m about to say. But I absolutely adore your videos. Maybe that just means we might be similar people or at least similar thinkers in the specific fields you cover in your videos, but I could genuinely watch your commentary for hours on hours. I have absolutely zero interest in the Mandarin language (no shame intended, absolutely beautiful and rich language), but so far, five or so minutes into this video i’m just fully immersed haha. Thanks for what you do!
This is ironic, because today I was telling my wife she had the exact opposite problem or applying Chinese 2nd and 3rd tones randomly to English. I told her it's mostly 1 and 4 in English and recommended she speak more like a robot 😅
Books and most teachers are definitely wrong, but you don't need any PhD or internet secret video - download a free software to compute the contour of the tones of any speech, and feed the program with any natural Chinese dialogue. That's what I did to settle this controversy, and that's when I realised that the third tone is, most of the time, a slight drop and that's it. Of course the tonal curves are never as rigid as the diagram, and consecutive tones influence each other.
@@labethmcdonnell2328 yes, but I think that would be pretty hard to find, or for anyone else to use, or relate to. Although, it's amazing to watch the words morph as they move from East to West in the Germanic world.
Check out Kaname Naito please! His channel came out of no where and he teaches very practical Japanese, like using すいません over すみません in everyday speech.
I've been learning Mandarin for almost three years, and I've concluded that the tones in real Chinese often sound different than they do in class. Especially the third tone, as mentioned in the video. In my eyes, the up-and-down of the third tone is usually only used when the word is read out individually as a vocabulary. In spoken text, it is often barely noticeable.
Metatron, you sure are fast. Just when that video appeared on my homepage for two days straight, I'm also pondering whether I should start learning Chinese.
Funnily enough, when I looked up Chinese tones a long time ago, I do actually remember the third tone being mentioned as being a low tone that sometimes goes up. But it was primarily mentioned as a low tone. I never started studying Chinese, nor did I intended to. I just wanted to know how to pronounce Chinese words when I see them (in pinyin) This way, I can be miles off, rather than going the opposite way, lol
I always had trouble with the tone charts cause it wasn’t in line with what my ears were hearing. Mimicking natives helped a lot more than tone charts for me.
@artugert on my phone. Formally watching UA-cam ? Not a thing. Maybe if you're a teacher online but this man was watching YT on his free time on his computer. Which is odd
@@chrisXlr8r That was a joke... I only watch on the computer. Why on earth would you want to watch on a tiny screen? I actually think that's odd. What's "disorganized" about watching on a computer? It's a much more pleasurable experience than a phone.
Maybe there is a conspiracy, or maybe in Beijing where the standard is based upon people really pronounce the first tone very high. I was studying in Dalian and someone drew my attention once to the fact that Dalian people pronounce the first tone lower (around 4-4) than Beijing people.
And ofc the title about the SECRET is totally clickbait and it clearly baited the Metatron 😆 but his initial sarcasm is totally deserved. All of this is pretty standard and every teacher nowadays would tell you that the 3rd tone does not go up as high as shown in the chart, and immediately teach you the sandhi because it occurs in 你好, the first word you learn in Chinese. 一 and 不 are also maybe standard Lesson 2 content. I’d rather have her explain how you deal with multiple third tones in a row or other some slightly less basic stuff. That is to say, she still does the teaching in a very enjoyable manner, with great attention to detail, like a very good teacher would. The last part totally slays though, i only ever seen it explained in one textbook written by a bilingual.
People who need to deal with multidigit numbers a lot (like in the military with time and unit numbers) tend to do this, but I haven't heard many ordinary people do so. Maybe depending on regions?
@@siekensou77 oooh oooh I didn't even realise what you said! This originated from military use to avoid confusion during radio communication (and also because of Chinese dialects) they changed pronunciation of a few numbers. For some reason 一 is most commonly adopted into normal usage. The original changes made to "1234567890" was that they were read as "幺两三四五六拐怕狗洞"
Do you have any interest in reviewing Latin language modern music translations? Greenday - Boulevard of Broken Dreams in Classical Latin (Bardcore/Medieval style) the_miracle_aligner 238K subscribers
I've watched her video beforehand, there's nothing particularly new/secret answer to it. It's the kinda usual answer of phrasal intonation and sandhi interactions, plus some more detail about volume and length which is neat. Her -en final is strangely English [ɛn] rather than further back [ən~ɤn] that I'd expect
Here is the secret to master tones in Mandarin
Check out her video and subscribe to her channel goooo!
ua-cam.com/video/eIP8yVcDZRI/v-deo.html
Is it a coincidence that you do proper credit in the description and pinned comment AND watch Jacksfilms? I don't think so
As a native mandarin speaker, I learnt something new here
14:07 You are 100% correct. I’m Chinese here and from my experience these tone changes are actually left out of schools in China, but most natives very naturally make these changes without even realising.
I had many years of German in School and I speak Swiss German every day. But I never reached PhD-Level in both languages. There is so much outside of any language course you could probably design. Let alone things only done in local dialects. For example I learnd Spanish from a Teacher from Pucallpa, Ucayali, Peru. I learned "ll" as a "tch", so pollo (chicken) becomes potcho. But outside of Ucuayali it's mostly pronounced "y". Therefore poyo. If I ordered chicken in an Peruvian Restaurant they did not get what I wanted.
Why is it that UA-cam recommends me a random video from a channel I've never seen before, and mere hours later I see a channel I'm subscribed to reacting to the very same video?
just the algorithm doing its thing
Same thing happened to me LLU
Same here!
It’s called an algorithm
I noticed the same. I started getting a Video recommended around 2 days before the raction video of Metatron's went public. Probably a feature of UA-cam's since reaction videos must somehow lead to more exposure for the video the reaction was made to. Otherwise they would just be a copyright infringement.
She has videos on Korean, too, awesome!
I subscribed to her channel. I do have some books on Mandarin, too, & just haven't had the time to really get into them, but maybe I'll take them off the shelf.
I'm a native Korean and German speaker, but living in Guangzhou and Shenzhen, China since the last 27 years. I've picked up how to speak Cantonese which is the dominating spoken language here in everyday life, partly thanks to my personal efforts and my wife as well who is a native speaker of the local dialect.
Though mostly referred to as 'dialect' , the actual difference between Mandarin and Cantonese is as German is to English. They only share the written formal language and the characters.
The funny thing about those Mandarin speakers who moved to this area and stay for a relatively long time, I mean at least 10 years or even more, is that there are only very few of them who successfully learn the local dialect to a conversational level. One or two in a hundred at best, excluding kids.
Cantonese has 9 tones altogether, including those entering tones. And the tone sandhi being explained in the vid is by far more complicated than compared with Mandarin.
Absolutely agree the 3rd tone should be thought of as a low flat
Learning this really helped my tones
I watched the video before you and I appreciate you shedding light on hers amazing work
I’ve been told foreigners don’t have accents per se when speaking Chinese but rather they sound like robots 🤖 because they speak monotone languages.
Nah they definitely have accents
that was incredible. bravo to her
Recently found your channel, really like it, thank you
Finally Chinese related content! By the way I also got recommend the vid you're reacting to, but I just added it to watch later lol
Ho scoperto il tuo canale solo due giorni fa e non riesco a staccarmene!!! Un abbraccio 😊
I really like how she used the word “sandhi”. It is a Sanskrit word meaning the act of “combining”.
That's just what it's called. Is there another name for it?
@@artugert wdym ?
@@mdahsenmirza2536 When a phonological change occurs with a tone in a tonal language, it is called "tone sandhi". There is no other term for it, that I am aware of.
@@artugert oh, I didn't know that. Is this a linguistic term ?
@@mdahsenmirza2536 Yes
Interesting, I went to that video and it showed that I already watched it right to the point where this viedo here stopped. It is great to see that UA-cam is actually giving the Viewtime of a reaction viedo to the original video. It totally makes sense, but probably was not easy to implement correctly. I was actually pondering to learn Mandarin just because it can't hurt to know something about the most commonly used language on Earth. A former boss of mine, which speaks it, told me, you can find Mandarin speakers in quite about every bigger town of this planet.
Wait that's cool, holy heck. I never noticed that UA-cam does that now.
It is just that Metatron put the time segment into the link. It was Metatron that embedded the link to start where he left off in the video, nothing to do with UA-cam. Look at the link, it has the "t=x number of seconds" embedded, that's why it automatically starts you off where Metatron ended.
@@mordraug6662 Oh, now, that's sad. I really hoped UA-cam did do something for the creators here.
I speak, to varying degrees, 4 “tonal” languages: Japanese, Mandarin, Taiwanese and Vietnamese. So this is what I’m drawing on.
I don’t know if she understands tone numbers. The numbers are a numerical value for something that’s inherently non-numerical. Obviously it’s not going to be perfect but it’s better than nothing. The 1-5 system is the boundaries of your NATURAL voice. The one you speak with. If your 5 is too high for you to consistently produce, it’s not your 5. Same with 1 and 3. It’s the boundaries of your natural speaking voice. If your voice is lower, the boundaries will lower. So the numbers are only useful person to person. Which may be a disadvantage and it’s also what makes documenting tone difficult, because everyone’s voices are different. If anyone disagrees with my thoughts, please say why, in curious to know
Edit: spelling mistakes
I completely agree, and in fact, that is how I've always heard the tones be taught. Teachers normally say it is at the top of your normal speaking range. Her speaking range is quite low, while some other native speakers are considerably higher. And she didn't even get into how if you have two first tones in a row, the second one can sometimes be lower in pitch than the first one (but it doesn't have to be, and it varies by speaker).
Actually, though, to be more precise, it's not at the high point in relation to your average range, but the high point of the range that you are currently speaking at that particular moment, in that particular sentence. It only needs to be high in relation to the words surrounding it. The first tone can even be quite low in pitch, if you want it to be, as long as the other words around it are correspondingly low.
@artugert 100% agree. I forgot to mention that as well. It’s definitely true that the pitch depends on the surrounding words: as long as Y is higher than X, thats more than enough. Tones are completely relative based upon your natural speaking voice, intonation, the pitch at which you’re speaking now, the surrounding consonants, any phonation that is present (c.f. Vietnamese + Mandarin 3rd tone), other surrounding tones. There’s a lot of complexity to tones that I feel she didn’t talk about. And for that reason I personally think that her knowledge of phonology is lacking. Phonology is the area of linguistics I’m most interested in and know the most about so this was telling to me personally
@@justakathings I'm really interested in phonology too. I've yet to see anyone on YT getting really deep into Mandarin phonology. (If you know of any, please let me know.) I thought for a minute that she was about to get into some more interesting stuff, but was disappointed.
@artugert completely agree with everything. Rita Mandarin Chinese is decent with phonology from what I remember. But personally I want a really DEEP deep dive such as (off the top of my head) the zero onset in Chinese languages. Just that is really interesting because it has such wide variation. I want numbers like VOT and how that affects things, the interplay between tones and vowel length etc. I want someone like Dr Geoff Lindsay, who’s amazing for English phonology, but for Chinese.
@@justakathings I totally agree! I love Geoff Lindsey's content, too. I've thought about creating a Mandarin learning channel some day and getting deep into that stuff. Not sure when I'll have time, though. IIRC, Chinese Zero to Hero has gotten into some linguistic stuff in Mandarin, and I think Glossika, too. I think Rita gets into it in her paid course, but I haven't purchased it. But, like you, I would like to go deeper.
What's VOT? I don't think I've heard of that.
Edit: Never mind, just looked it up. Apparently it's Voice Onset Time. I'll have to look into that. Thanks.
14:41 Sounds like a bizarre statement to be honest. Just because it doesn't have stress doesn't make it simple, I mean fact alone that it has four phonemic tones makes it quite complex I'd say. And stress-determined vowel reduction is typical of English, but English has quite an unusual phonology, and the phenomenon is not at all universal to languages that have stress.
I must say Metatron, and I won’t lie, I don’t even know the reason necessarily for what I’m about to say. But I absolutely adore your videos. Maybe that just means we might be similar people or at least similar thinkers in the specific fields you cover in your videos, but I could genuinely watch your commentary for hours on hours. I have absolutely zero interest in the Mandarin language (no shame intended, absolutely beautiful and rich language), but so far, five or so minutes into this video i’m just fully immersed haha. Thanks for what you do!
This is ironic, because today I was telling my wife she had the exact opposite problem or applying Chinese 2nd and 3rd tones randomly to English. I told her it's mostly 1 and 4 in English and recommended she speak more like a robot 😅
Books and most teachers are definitely wrong, but you don't need any PhD or internet secret video - download a free software to compute the contour of the tones of any speech, and feed the program with any natural Chinese dialogue. That's what I did to settle this controversy, and that's when I realised that the third tone is, most of the time, a slight drop and that's it. Of course the tonal curves are never as rigid as the diagram, and consecutive tones influence each other.
What software do you use? Praat?
@@artugert Praat is free and does the trick, if you don't want to spend money.
Gotta love UA-cam. I just watched Stuart Jay Raj reacting to you reacting to this video...🙂
Would love for you to try Old Norse, Anglo-Saxon, or just regular German. Dutch is also eerily similar to English. Cheers.
The Frisian(Frysk) Languages are the closest extant to English.
@@labethmcdonnell2328 yes, but I think that would be pretty hard to find, or for anyone else to use, or relate to. Although, it's amazing to watch the words morph as they move from East to West in the Germanic world.
There is this and wikilanguages.
m.ua-cam.com/video/lZOZxdIzLYE/v-deo.html&pp=ygURZnJpc2lhbiBsYW5ndWFnZXM
Because there's tones in old norse
Nice . I subscribed .
I guess I knew all this stuff but never really thought about any of them before (I just knew by listening and speaking the language)
Check out Kaname Naito please! His channel came out of no where and he teaches very practical Japanese, like using すいません over すみません in everyday speech.
I've been learning Mandarin for almost three years, and I've concluded that the tones in real Chinese often sound different than they do in class. Especially the third tone, as mentioned in the video. In my eyes, the up-and-down of the third tone is usually only used when the word is read out individually as a vocabulary. In spoken text, it is often barely noticeable.
ChineseWei is my guy.
Good stuff, Metatron.
Metatron, you sure are fast. Just when that video appeared on my homepage for two days straight, I'm also pondering whether I should start learning Chinese.
Hi metatron, can you give your take on the Flint Dibble’s latest response to Graham Hancock?
Funnily enough, when I looked up Chinese tones a long time ago, I do actually remember the third tone being mentioned as being a low tone that sometimes goes up. But it was primarily mentioned as a low tone.
I never started studying Chinese, nor did I intended to. I just wanted to know how to pronounce Chinese words when I see them (in pinyin)
This way, I can be miles off, rather than going the opposite way, lol
I always had trouble with the tone charts cause it wasn’t in line with what my ears were hearing. Mimicking natives helped a lot more than tone charts for me.
She'd be a taiconaut ;)
lets go bing chilling
The third tone always screws me up! She has helped a lot. I wont say Bu3 Shi3 any more!
Metatron not wearing a doublet? I am merely waiting for the day when Metatron will upload a video of him wearing a white t-shirt.
Got the colony called "X"
0:17
Are people actually casually watching YT on their computers ?
How else would you watch it? Formally?
@artugert on my phone. Formally watching UA-cam ? Not a thing. Maybe if you're a teacher online but this man was watching YT on his free time on his computer. Which is odd
@artugert also YT on computer is actually terrible 💀 it's too disorganized
@@chrisXlr8r That was a joke...
I only watch on the computer. Why on earth would you want to watch on a tiny screen? I actually think that's odd. What's "disorganized" about watching on a computer? It's a much more pleasurable experience than a phone.
Maybe there is a conspiracy, or maybe in Beijing where the standard is based upon people really pronounce the first tone very high. I was studying in Dalian and someone drew my attention once to the fact that Dalian people pronounce the first tone lower (around 4-4) than Beijing people.
You cut it off right when it was getting to the good part!
And ofc the title about the SECRET is totally clickbait and it clearly baited the Metatron 😆 but his initial sarcasm is totally deserved. All of this is pretty standard and every teacher nowadays would tell you that the 3rd tone does not go up as high as shown in the chart, and immediately teach you the sandhi because it occurs in 你好, the first word you learn in Chinese. 一 and 不 are also maybe standard Lesson 2 content.
I’d rather have her explain how you deal with multiple third tones in a row or other some slightly less basic stuff.
That is to say, she still does the teaching in a very enjoyable manner, with great attention to detail, like a very good teacher would.
The last part totally slays though, i only ever seen it explained in one textbook written by a bilingual.
For the multiple third tones in a row, I recommend a video called "Tone Sandhi In depth" on the channel "Chinese Zero to Hero".
The secret to the third tone is that it’s vocal fry.
Watch Lele Farley LeLe Linguistics video!!
Colony X
Is it a coincidence that you do proper credit in the description and pinned comment AND watch Jacksfilms? I don't think so
I have found more ppl say yao instead of yi for 1
yat is 1 in cantonese
@iamsheep
Yes, but i was talking about mandarin.
1059 as a string of individual numbers is yi ling wu jyou
But more often i hear yao ling wu jyou
People who need to deal with multidigit numbers a lot (like in the military with time and unit numbers) tend to do this, but I haven't heard many ordinary people do so. Maybe depending on regions?
@@siekensou77 oooh oooh I didn't even realise what you said! This originated from military use to avoid confusion during radio communication (and also because of Chinese dialects) they changed pronunciation of a few numbers. For some reason 一 is most commonly adopted into normal usage. The original changes made to "1234567890" was that they were read as "幺两三四五六拐怕狗洞"
@@VieShaphiel It's common when saying numbers (especially phone numbers out loud)
were you fully sober making this?
Do you have any interest in reviewing Latin language modern music translations?
Greenday - Boulevard of Broken Dreams in Classical Latin (Bardcore/Medieval style)
the_miracle_aligner 238K subscribers
the miracle aligner isn't good Latin
@@TheUnstableNutcase Thank you for that; it is what I wanted to know.
I've watched her video beforehand, there's nothing particularly new/secret answer to it. It's the kinda usual answer of phrasal intonation and sandhi interactions, plus some more detail about volume and length which is neat.
Her -en final is strangely English [ɛn] rather than further back [ən~ɤn] that I'd expect