I am mostly a 40k fan lore wise but I started Warhammer in general with fantasy through Total War. I love soteks vids and his Q&As but I have to say: ANDY YOU ARE A TREASURE! You are the smallest youtuber I ever subscibed too out of passion but you deserve every iota of support and I literaly never felt bad before for not being able to support a content creator finacialy because I cant afford it. With just 2.5k subscribers at the moment of this comment I think you are one of the most criminally underrated youtubers in the WH section of UA-cam. Your passion and knowledge are just unreal and as far as I understand (english is not my first language, correct me if I am wrong / misunderstanding) you were even involved in CREATING some the lore to some extend (back in the days?)!!! While most WH fantasy content is / was just background information for my Total War playthroughts you (and sotek in your collabs and in general) fully ignited my interest in the fantasy franchise and I am firmly planning to buy the books, available merch, etc. and getting really involved like I do with 40k (already made my first steps with the gotrek and felix books). Keep up your amazing work and content and THANK YOU! very much for making me have such a fatastic time watching you and your takes on the lore !!!
For sure. These guys are incredibly entertaining and engaging to listen to. It's crazy that their sub count is this low. It definitely has the potential to blow up if enough people find out about it even outside the Warhammer fandom (in the same way that Adeptus Ridiculous blew up well beyond the 40k fandom).
This was the bestest episode yet. Loved the nerd rage, absolutely made my night. Keep it up boys!! Your passionate telling of warhammer lore makes me such a happy little nerd. ❤
I had a Warhammer "hiatus" from around the time of late 7th edition WFB to until about when the pandemic hit. During that time I only heard distant rumblings about The End Times. How Warhammer was now dead and had been replaced with this strange Saturday Morning Cartoons version called Age Of Sigmar, where everybody would ride dinosaurs and every model would look like a special character. This video is a perfect way for me to catch up on my decade of darkness away from the hobby. Thank you for that! I'm very happy that Warhammer - "the original and best" - is very much alive and well in games such as Total War: Warhammer and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. Not least thanks to the dedication and passion of people like yourself and mr. Sotek. Cheers!
As im sure sotek and surely Andy aswell would agree, Age of Sigmar is prettu good now. It's obviously something completely different and much more high fantasy, but it has carved out It's own niche and many of us enjoy it for that (ofcourse endtimes still sucks). And perhaps more important than all, the models look absolutely amazing, sooo much character and variety in every single one, imo the best GW are making
@@albertdrevdal4233 Different folks, different strokes. Technically the miniatures look amazing. Like, in terms of the craftsmanship. Completely agree. The level of detail has never been better. Tonally though, it's just not for me. They're way too "busy" and flamboyant to my tastes. There's too much going on. Everyone wears a cape or have long pony tails. The swords are ridiculously big. It looks like a cartoon. It's like Masters Of The Universe meets DinoRiders and My Little Pony. I like my Warhammer "grimdark" and gritty. AoS looks the opposite or, to coin a phrase, "flashybright". I'm happy it has an audience who enjoys that. But I'm very happy that the original Warhammer is still around in aforementioned games, as well as in the upcoming Old World tabletop game. We can all just enjoy our own flavor of ice cream and that's fantastic!
@@NisGaarde I reckon it's also a fantasy vs aos problem. Most people ive introduced to the hobby really like aos, because it has so much diversity, some models are very bombastic, other units and factions are much more grounded and gritty. Meanwhile Most people I know who played fantasy are not interested at all and will come with all sorts of reasons why they don't like it. The obvious implication to me is that people who played fantasy (I did not) felt betrayed and put off by GWs abandonment of fantasy, and rightfully so. Now obviously you don't have to like aos (it's a lot cheaper not to...) and maybe you wouldn't regardless. But it's something to consider.
@@albertdrevdal4233 I've never played AoS. I'm sure the game mechanics are awesome. I'm not trying to knock it. I'm only speaking for myself and how I'm just not drawn to the aesthetic and look of it. Maybe it's a generational thing as well. IDK.
I am OBSESSED with the idea of Mazdamundi taking in the wind of light, and the clarity of thought it would provide, particularly with the emphasis in 8th ed. on Chaos befuddling the slann generally and clouding their minds/distracting their thoughts. It would be the literally LIGHTbulb moment as he wakes up to the state of play as well as providing an acceptable explanation for how to suddenly activate the Exodus and launch their temple-ships. Light raises him to a higher state of consciousness/awareness such that he can remember what had been otherwise forgotten over the long, slow decline of years.
Y ou know, from an in-lore perspective, I find it really hard to believe that chaos was inevitably meant to win. Sure, they keep telling us that chaos is inevitable, that the world is doomed, but what do they show us? Chaos is beaten back time and time again, but this time they just happen to be extra strong for some reason? Why? I think it’s really telling how the end times had to do so much stupid nonsense to nerf the order factions into the dirt, constant infighting, Lileath being the most effective force for chaos, named characters struggling to tie their own shoelaces and an invincible and endless tide of Skaven Deus Ex Machina wiping out 90% of the world offscreen, and chaos STILL almost loses against the remaining 12 dudes or whoever. Chaos feels to me like an underdog faction with delusions of grandeur. It is dangerous because it is creeping and insidious, not because it has anything close to the raw power to destroy the world, everchosen or no. They had a better chance the first time they tried and one elf with a spooky sword held them off for years. It’s a hot take, but I think making chaos end the world goes directly against the spirit of warhammer.
Oooh this gunna be joocee! Edit: Of all the episodes of Law Beards out now, I return to this one the most, the End Times has to be the most confusing story within the Warhammer universe and even after all these years I still don't understand and still seek answers, this stream is the closest I've gotten to those answer, I sincerely hope there is a 'Part 2'.
As someone who really, really dislikes the End Times, I think it’s important to cut the authors of the books some slack. It’s well known that GW’s whole handling of the event was a corporate clown show designed to rush everything into AoS, and the BL portion of the company has an earned reputation for foisting narratives onto authors that don’t really want to handle them. All the deserved criticism around the End Times should largely be directed at the company, not the poor bastards who were absolutely writing about things they weren’t fully comfortable with because they wanted to get paid. I’m not saying you guys did this, just that it’s important the root cause for the End Times being how it was should be kept in perspective.
I feel like the Celestial Dragon Emperor was passed over for the Wind of Heavens was passed over too easily. Hes infused with the wind already, is a possibly the strongest user of it in the setting (depending on the lore), and has had a plan based on future sight since the birth of Chaos. He could also have a similar situation to Mazdamundi in that he has a last hurrah and then the wind leaves him. Especially I would love to see him leave the world with only the Shugangan and some of the dragon kids to make a dragon centric AoS faction. The fey enchantress IS a super interesting choice but she has always representing Life more than Heavens to me. Lore of fire is a toughy maybe Imrik we just dont know enough about the Fire dragon kid yet for me to like it but I hope that changes soon!
@@gaaaarg633the problem is that Cathay really hadn’t been fleshed out well by the time the end times came around, so he was really a background character
I wished we would have had End Times as a multy theatre conflict with different factions fighting conflicts which influence the greater picture. With not just chaos being handed victory after victory. And whilst I know they never wanted to expand the setting, an event like this would have been great to do so. E.g. we have chaos pushing down as usual. Then we have Nagash as another major threat equal to chaos. Grimgor assembles his ulttimate ragnaork Waagh! and goes east. The Lizardmen act on a grand scale to rescue the Great Plan etc. Theatre 1: The Empire/Kislev. Chaos is pushing down en grande. Empire/Kislev/Karak Kadrin/Sylvania under Vlad are pushing against Warriors of Chaos/Norsca/Kurgans/demons/Beastmen/Clan Moulder etc. Theatre 2: Nehekara and the northern Southlands. Nagash oustes Settra and Khalida from Nehekhara but they are not wholly beaten yet. Meanwhile Araby and the empire/bretonnian colonies down there try to survive against waves of undead. They are far from Nagashs primary priority, but their ressistance binds his ressources he cannot sent elsewhere. Also skaven hate Nagash sooo... Araby/Empire/Bretonnia vs Nagash vs Tomb King remnants vs skaven. Theatre 3: southern old world/Badlands Nagash marches a massive force through the badlands towards the Empire to counter Archaeons invasion. Meanwhile most orcs there follow Grimgor eastwards so it is relativly empty. So the dwarfs may choose to reclaim lost holds or fortify against Nagashs invasion to protect the empire. Skavenblight meanwhile spews put skaven in numbers unseen. They want to backstab the empire from the south. Kemmler joins chaos fully and unleashes his hordes to weaken the defenfers further. So Tilea/Estalia and the Grey Mountain dwarfs, Southern Bretonnia vs skaven/ Kemmlers undead and Nagash undead vs greenskin remnants vs Karaz Ankor Dwarfs. Lots of overlapps too. Theatre 4: Cathay. Grimgor fights through the Mountains of Mourn with a massive, massive Waagh. Meanwhile Chaos attacks in force from the north. Zhao Ming and Greasus try to secure the west, whilst Miao and else try to hold the Great Bastion. Again with Skaven there as well. So Cathay/Ogres vs Greenskins vs chaos forces of all kinds but especially kurgan/hung. With the chaos dwarfs trying to outlast the greenskins too. Theatre 5, and the most important thratre in my opinion: Everyone major wants to control the Vortex. Nagash sents a massive fleet of vampire coast under Harkon to invade lothern and break through the inner sea. Chaos lands in chrace to fight itself through the north. Dark Elves land in Tirannoc to use the chaos for their own gains. Even the Lizardmen show up, because they want the Vortex protected/manipulate it for their purposes. So HE/Lizardmen vs Vampire coast vs DE vs chaos Of course many other theatres could be added. But with a set up like it the story could have felt much grander and complex, even if it still ends with the setting ending. A last hurrah were even unplayable factions step out to fight for their worlds survival. Edit:some spelling
Estrielle was the Everqueen when Finubar became Phoenix King. She died when Tyrion was around a 100 years old in the second book of the Tyrion and Teclis trilogy. That's when Tyrion and Alarielle (Estrielle's daughter) met and fell in love with each other. So Alarielle is then Finubar's daughter? 19:43
Re: Azyr, this is not something Teclis would ever deliberately do, but it almost feels thematically appropriate for Kairos the Fateweaver to have a centuries-long scheme to nick that wind from whoever it would be given to?
1:53:46 better idea, final book we turn Ulthan into a flying troop carrier before we crash it into the swarms of chaos. We shall call this maneuver “black ark rain”.
Khazrak the good Beastman incarnate of beasts would be so fucking good. I love the concept of good beastmen. I love that they exist in 40k, though they never show up. Khazrak would be amazing.
Didn't know much about the end times, just a lot of people hating it. I started my warhammer journey at the end of AoS 1st edition, didn't know there was a fantasy before that for a long time. Moved onto 40k quite soon after. And now learning more and more about WFB. I now get why people HEAVILY dislike or flatout hate the end times. Years or even decades of lore pretty much straight down the drain. That sucks big time. Can't wait for part 2 with more inevitable rants!
When writing the end times, you need to make a list of all of the major characters and at least one thing the HAVE to do. The second thing to keep in mind is that any victory, on any side, needs to be pyrrhic one.
So, here's a random thought, I know this is a bit of a long haul suggestion, but What about if you did like a once a month you pick a single faction and discuss what happened to them in the end times and how you think they should have been done differently. The thing that brings this thought to my head is when you were talking about the dwarves and how the old runes would have regained their old power, to go into a deep dive on what things could or should have happened with the various factions, this also would allow you to break the end times up into more manageable segments.
I assume what you say is accurate, but the wiki says something different about Settra's end, which I much prefer. Basically, Nagesh tears his body apart, his soul is becoming unbound to his corpse, the Tomb King equivalent of bleeding out, and the Chaos Gods offer to empower him and make him king again, and Settra just ignores them. We know Settra would never serve, so he doesn't even have to say anything for us to know he's going to choose death, and it's a quiet, tiny moment of strength for the character. Maybe it got retconned or something, or the wiki is wrong.
Just about the most wholesome nerd-rage I've seen. You two seem like the right people to have this talk, to express your negative opinions without too much negativity and with plenty of humour.
"If you're going to set up your new game, do you really want it to be the game of White guy with blue eyes and blonde hair. Is that the game you're really trying to start. It is not what I would have I thought the best art of their next game anyway. But sure, that's what they went for." -Andy Law
Celestial Dragon Emperor has got to be the pick for Azyr. He's basically already an incarnate of Azyr and arguably the entire nation of Cathay only exists because he saw the future and has some plan. Though I also think that one could be another Chamon situation but with the Celestial Dragon Emperor having crafted some device to capture it. He's been working on something. What has he been working on?
3:22:38 Shame I missed the stream, cause I will die on the hill that Kinslayer is a top 3 Gotrek and Felix book, sometimes I think it might be my favorite. Slayer has some really cool shit too. Thanquol only getting a cameo was a little lame, but that is entirely due to the role Thanquol was playing in the other End Times books.
Okay but hear me out. Bring the Haven to AOS as Old World introduces the Bretonnian line proper, so everybody can use the new models for both games. Have AOS bretonnians be champions of the Lady who's become a goddess in her own right thanks to the centuries of faith and dying in hwr name. Have new Brets and Lady be holy undead or at least animated holy armor to directly oppose Nagash and his 75 different models lol. Bam, Bretonnia in AOS
Also your ideas about Karl Franz and Archaon got me wondering how much story is there about Karl in the lore? I know hes popular now because of the TW games but there doesn't seem to be much story about him like no books or anything.
GW and their "but Warhammer Fantasy wasn't profitable" in a single question. They applied the same 40K logic to fantasy's guidelines and rules in black library, and they refused to support Fantasy. Part of why I call all of AoS's "huge initial success" a fat lie.
I don't dislike Mallobaude becoming a vampire, but I definitely think that it should have been more along the lines him knowing about the blood knights and or the Red Duke, and feeling he need's the power to take on his father, but Arkhan doesn't make sense, for sure, unless he was sort of behind the scenes if you really wanted him to show up for the staff of nagash or something. But I do like the Idea of Mallobaude embracing the darkness for "The Right Reasons".
Much like the suggestion of the wind of metal going into the throne of power, i almost like the idea of the wind of life going into the oak of ages. Giving Athel Loren a magical supercharge to grow out of control, have the world itself fighting for survival as well. And because demons vs forest spirits is always badass in my opinion.
I think Settra could be a good choice for the Wind of Fire: He’s a fiery temperamental person, he has a ton of solar and fire imagery, and there’s a level of irony as Tomb Kings are typically weak to fire but he embodies Fire, and it would build up Settra as more of rival to Nagash.
Sounds like they could have fixed the Settra weirdness by having Nagash leave Settra bound to his ruined body in the same way that he left Alkadizzar alive. As one final petty fuck you to force Settra to sit and watch helplessly as Nagash won. And from there you have the Chaos Gods, just like the Skaven did for Alkadizzar, offer to help.
Narratively speaking I find the lizardmen idea very unsatisfying, I agree that they should leave eventually, but it would feel very bad if they literally don't matter for the end times (like they do in the actual endtimes😓). I think it would be a lot more exciting if they make one last desperate attempt to rectify the great plan, only leaving after that fails and the planet is truly lost.
That's largely what was suggested in the stream, although the step-by-step process may have been lost in the nerd-raging and counter-suggestions. I.e.: the Lizardmen fight, and fight hard. Near the end, the Incarnate plan is enacted by Teclis. Mazdamundi realises what the Great Plan actually is at that point and enacts the getaway right before the end, just before the Lizardmen are destroyed. Or something similar. Lots of potential for Epic there.
Personally I think Azyr would have been a chance to introduce Cathay as it goes into the Emperor. He fits the description of a "thing or person" that could wield it to a T... Lore of shadow for the Empress(too many cathay characters get a lore though so) my next suggestion would be someone like Sniktch or Morathi, she's all about deception and illusions and peering all into the future with some Hekarti bs, and being about the darker side of elves). And for lore of Beasts maybe even Thrott the unclean with his endless maddenning hunger would make a great incarnate since we won't be using Thanquol for shadow.
Honestly if you wanted to get rid of Krell, he should have faught Harald Hammerstorm and lost to him. To have a former champion of chaos, now undead, fight the first-written champion sounds very poetic, in a way.
Id reference the End times, but certainly redo it start from scratch and do a FULL fucking end times. They want to milk the Hours Heresy for all the bullshit they can, give us our 20ish books about the end of the world.
Nagash did not kill Settra. He tore his limbs and head from his torso. This left Settras head to witness Khemrus destruction. Nagash did not want him dead.
After watching so many of these I have decided to do an unserious campaign of Warhammer fantasy roleplay where the characters are given a vision sent by an aspect of tzeentch and sigmar that otherworldly "writer" entities have mucked about with fate and the Characters need to stop key aspects of this fate from coming to pass so that the world may continue.
In an alternative universe where Andy and Sotek's reimagined End Times was the actual lore of the End Times release, i probably would've looked at Age of Sigmar with a bittersweet interest rather than such immense disgust.
honestly i believe if skrag and greasus fought greasus would kick skrags ass in, like my man has the power of sky titans and is smarter than any ogre and he would make a good beast wind avatar think about it beasts dont have to be mindless wolves will stalk prey, animals use camo to wait for food. and he has the power to back it up due to his scepter. (and also belakor is the type of mofo to betray chaos and teclis goes "fine fine" and just tosses him the wind)
also small thing felt that drycha should have done the "wounded arial" thing then got cured like the main plot and the fused allarial just uses magic to kinda just make her go back to sleep that would have been a great ending in my opinion
My incarnates Fire: Gotrek, Dragon Emperor, li dao, imrik, or Tyrion Life: Alarielle/Ariel Beasts: Mother O, Nakai, or Orion Metal: Gelt, Grombrindal, or Go-Rok Heavens:Dragon Empress, Miao-Ying, or Kroak Light: Sigmar/KF, volkmar, or Kroq-Gar, or mazdamundi Death: Nagash Shadow: Alith Anar, oxyotl, or monkey king Chaos incarnates(for fun) Fire: Archaon, skarbrand, drazoath, or gaulrauch Life: Festus o kugath Beasts: malagor, throgg, or throt Metal: astrogath, ikit, or taurox Heavens: kholek, gaulrauch, azazel, or kairos Light: moonclaw or sigvald Death: snikch, queek, kemler, Krell, Harald hammer Shadow: snikch, Belekor, changeling, or manfred
It's a long stream so I'm going to be catching up to it throughout the week during my commute. But ever since the Lawbeards Malekith video I had a theory as to why Malekith is the "True" Phoenix King. Why Asuryan forgives him etc in the End Times. It's honestly very simple too. Malekith is the "True" Phoenix King for one reason. He is to Asuryan at least, his son. After all Aenarion was his Avatar.
Thanks to total war series , i am introduced in to warhammer fantasy . Karl Franz, Tyrion, Teclis , GRIMGOR , cathay's dragon, warhammer dwarf, Skaven etc etc. Other than characcter or race, warhammer fantasy have a interresting world with various of meaningful, historical landmark. These are familiar to me, my first memory on this fantasy settings. About five years ago, in the same year after i get into total war warhammer game, i realised that there is a book about the end of this fantasy series. The moment i learned the story, i hate it very much. My first thought is , these group of character should not be the one who facing the end. Of course history tend to repeat itself, so end times eventually came, but it should be like after some time or centuries later.
So... as a complete newcomer to the lore of WHFRP.... this episode contains a huge amount of interesting lore, although it gets quite confusing. But there is also description of a truly apalling amount of bad design and sickening writing. Thus: It is a useful thing to watch for a newcomer, but maybe keep notes as one does so.... and for the subject material I am going to bite my tongue. Except it does beg my question: How might the fan-base rewrite the Endtimes "properly", and so they don't end in despair? (I can endure the nerd-rage largely because I totally relate. What I found difficult to cope with was the amount of poor quality subject material!)
I hope we get a part 2 at some point, I don't want the discussion cut short.
We'll have a part 2 at some point. But give us a bit of time to relax from all the nerd rage first!
Gelt Rant when, Andy 😢
Cut short like the EnDtiiiMeS?! Lol
@@depitagraphy9393 Was this stream not ranty enough? 😂
@@LAWhammer
Mr. mustache man, I think I can speak for all the Gelt bros when I say, “the Gelt Rant is needed to make my soul whole”
I am mostly a 40k fan lore wise but I started Warhammer in general with fantasy through Total War. I love soteks vids and his Q&As but I have to say: ANDY YOU ARE A TREASURE! You are the smallest youtuber I ever subscibed too out of passion but you deserve every iota of support and I literaly never felt bad before for not being able to support a content creator finacialy because I cant afford it. With just 2.5k subscribers at the moment of this comment I think you are one of the most criminally underrated youtubers in the WH section of UA-cam.
Your passion and knowledge are just unreal and as far as I understand (english is not my first language, correct me if I am wrong / misunderstanding) you were even involved in CREATING some the lore to some extend (back in the days?)!!!
While most WH fantasy content is / was just background information for my Total War playthroughts you (and sotek in your collabs and in general) fully ignited my interest in the fantasy franchise and I am firmly planning to buy the books, available merch, etc. and getting really involved like I do with 40k (already made my first steps with the gotrek and felix books).
Keep up your amazing work and content and THANK YOU! very much for making me have such a fatastic time watching you and your takes on the lore !!!
For sure. These guys are incredibly entertaining and engaging to listen to. It's crazy that their sub count is this low. It definitely has the potential to blow up if enough people find out about it even outside the Warhammer fandom (in the same way that Adeptus Ridiculous blew up well beyond the 40k fandom).
This was the bestest episode yet. Loved the nerd rage, absolutely made my night. Keep it up boys!! Your passionate telling of warhammer lore makes me such a happy little nerd. ❤
I need a picture of Volkmar on a missing image on the side of a carton of milk
Volkmar is present all the time..he´s Nagash body after all
I had a Warhammer "hiatus" from around the time of late 7th edition WFB to until about when the pandemic hit. During that time I only heard distant rumblings about The End Times. How Warhammer was now dead and had been replaced with this strange Saturday Morning Cartoons version called Age Of Sigmar, where everybody would ride dinosaurs and every model would look like a special character. This video is a perfect way for me to catch up on my decade of darkness away from the hobby. Thank you for that! I'm very happy that Warhammer - "the original and best" - is very much alive and well in games such as Total War: Warhammer and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. Not least thanks to the dedication and passion of people like yourself and mr. Sotek. Cheers!
As im sure sotek and surely Andy aswell would agree, Age of Sigmar is prettu good now. It's obviously something completely different and much more high fantasy, but it has carved out It's own niche and many of us enjoy it for that (ofcourse endtimes still sucks). And perhaps more important than all, the models look absolutely amazing, sooo much character and variety in every single one, imo the best GW are making
@@albertdrevdal4233 Different folks, different strokes. Technically the miniatures look amazing. Like, in terms of the craftsmanship. Completely agree. The level of detail has never been better. Tonally though, it's just not for me. They're way too "busy" and flamboyant to my tastes. There's too much going on. Everyone wears a cape or have long pony tails. The swords are ridiculously big. It looks like a cartoon. It's like Masters Of The Universe meets DinoRiders and My Little Pony. I like my Warhammer "grimdark" and gritty. AoS looks the opposite or, to coin a phrase, "flashybright". I'm happy it has an audience who enjoys that. But I'm very happy that the original Warhammer is still around in aforementioned games, as well as in the upcoming Old World tabletop game. We can all just enjoy our own flavor of ice cream and that's fantastic!
@@NisGaarde I reckon it's also a fantasy vs aos problem. Most people ive introduced to the hobby really like aos, because it has so much diversity, some models are very bombastic, other units and factions are much more grounded and gritty. Meanwhile Most people I know who played fantasy are not interested at all and will come with all sorts of reasons why they don't like it. The obvious implication to me is that people who played fantasy (I did not) felt betrayed and put off by GWs abandonment of fantasy, and rightfully so. Now obviously you don't have to like aos (it's a lot cheaper not to...) and maybe you wouldn't regardless. But it's something to consider.
@@albertdrevdal4233 I've never played AoS. I'm sure the game mechanics are awesome. I'm not trying to knock it. I'm only speaking for myself and how I'm just not drawn to the aesthetic and look of it. Maybe it's a generational thing as well. IDK.
AOS does not exist. Sigmar is a primarch.
I am OBSESSED with the idea of Mazdamundi taking in the wind of light, and the clarity of thought it would provide, particularly with the emphasis in 8th ed. on Chaos befuddling the slann generally and clouding their minds/distracting their thoughts. It would be the literally LIGHTbulb moment as he wakes up to the state of play as well as providing an acceptable explanation for how to suddenly activate the Exodus and launch their temple-ships. Light raises him to a higher state of consciousness/awareness such that he can remember what had been otherwise forgotten over the long, slow decline of years.
I'm equally obsessed. It's just a great fit and a great story.
Y ou know, from an in-lore perspective, I find it really hard to believe that chaos was inevitably meant to win. Sure, they keep telling us that chaos is inevitable, that the world is doomed, but what do they show us? Chaos is beaten back time and time again, but this time they just happen to be extra strong for some reason? Why? I think it’s really telling how the end times had to do so much stupid nonsense to nerf the order factions into the dirt, constant infighting, Lileath being the most effective force for chaos, named characters struggling to tie their own shoelaces and an invincible and endless tide of Skaven Deus Ex Machina wiping out 90% of the world offscreen, and chaos STILL almost loses against the remaining 12 dudes or whoever.
Chaos feels to me like an underdog faction with delusions of grandeur. It is dangerous because it is creeping and insidious, not because it has anything close to the raw power to destroy the world, everchosen or no. They had a better chance the first time they tried and one elf with a spooky sword held them off for years.
It’s a hot take, but I think making chaos end the world goes directly against the spirit of warhammer.
What an episode! TRULY A MASTERPIECE WORK!
Oooh this gunna be joocee!
Edit: Of all the episodes of Law Beards out now, I return to this one the most, the End Times has to be the most confusing story within the Warhammer universe and even after all these years I still don't understand and still seek answers, this stream is the closest I've gotten to those answer, I sincerely hope there is a 'Part 2'.
I look forward to these every week. Love these lore discussions.
As someone who really, really dislikes the End Times, I think it’s important to cut the authors of the books some slack. It’s well known that GW’s whole handling of the event was a corporate clown show designed to rush everything into AoS, and the BL portion of the company has an earned reputation for foisting narratives onto authors that don’t really want to handle them.
All the deserved criticism around the End Times should largely be directed at the company, not the poor bastards who were absolutely writing about things they weren’t fully comfortable with because they wanted to get paid.
I’m not saying you guys did this, just that it’s important the root cause for the End Times being how it was should be kept in perspective.
I'll still give shit at Gav Thorpe because he had the original idea for this shite, he was VERY displeased because Storm of Chaos didn't go his way
Amazing stream as always! The passion you both bring is infectious. Maybe next lorebeards you could talk about Queek?
I'm really happy we got this. I know very little about what happened with the end times that made everyone hate it, but I understand now.
Lol, where did the last four hours go? You guys are killing it with these streams, absolutely love it!
I feel like the Celestial Dragon Emperor was passed over for the Wind of Heavens was passed over too easily. Hes infused with the wind already, is a possibly the strongest user of it in the setting (depending on the lore), and has had a plan based on future sight since the birth of Chaos. He could also have a similar situation to Mazdamundi in that he has a last hurrah and then the wind leaves him. Especially I would love to see him leave the world with only the Shugangan and some of the dragon kids to make a dragon centric AoS faction. The fey enchantress IS a super interesting choice but she has always representing Life more than Heavens to me. Lore of fire is a toughy maybe Imrik we just dont know enough about the Fire dragon kid yet for me to like it but I hope that changes soon!
I agree although I wished we also talked about the humans of cathay too. They are just as much people just like those from the empire and brettonia.
@@gaaaarg633the problem is that Cathay really hadn’t been fleshed out well by the time the end times came around, so he was really a background character
Honestly Gentlemen, pop off! Your energy and passion for the topic is fantastic. Don’t worry about being negative, you’re just mad about bullshit.
Glotkin was a point for point retelling of The Battle of Minas Tirith from Return of the King.
Prove me wrong.
Stark difference in quality though 😂
Andy law rewriting end times sounds like a good ass idea.
I wished we would have had End Times as a multy theatre conflict with different factions fighting conflicts which influence the greater picture. With not just chaos being handed victory after victory. And whilst I know they never wanted to expand the setting, an event like this would have been great to do so.
E.g. we have chaos pushing down as usual. Then we have Nagash as another major threat equal to chaos. Grimgor assembles his ulttimate ragnaork Waagh! and goes east. The Lizardmen act on a grand scale to rescue the Great Plan etc.
Theatre 1: The Empire/Kislev. Chaos is pushing down en grande. Empire/Kislev/Karak Kadrin/Sylvania under Vlad are pushing against Warriors of Chaos/Norsca/Kurgans/demons/Beastmen/Clan Moulder etc.
Theatre 2: Nehekara and the northern Southlands. Nagash oustes Settra and Khalida from Nehekhara but they are not wholly beaten yet. Meanwhile Araby and the empire/bretonnian colonies down there try to survive against waves of undead. They are far from Nagashs primary priority, but their ressistance binds his ressources he cannot sent elsewhere. Also skaven hate Nagash sooo... Araby/Empire/Bretonnia vs Nagash vs Tomb King remnants vs skaven.
Theatre 3: southern old world/Badlands
Nagash marches a massive force through the badlands towards the Empire to counter Archaeons invasion. Meanwhile most orcs there follow Grimgor eastwards so it is relativly empty. So the dwarfs may choose to reclaim lost holds or fortify against Nagashs invasion to protect the empire. Skavenblight meanwhile spews put skaven in numbers unseen. They want to backstab the empire from the south. Kemmler joins chaos fully and unleashes his hordes to weaken the defenfers further. So Tilea/Estalia and the Grey Mountain dwarfs, Southern Bretonnia vs skaven/ Kemmlers undead and Nagash undead vs greenskin remnants vs Karaz Ankor Dwarfs. Lots of overlapps too.
Theatre 4: Cathay. Grimgor fights through the Mountains of Mourn with a massive, massive Waagh. Meanwhile Chaos attacks in force from the north. Zhao Ming and Greasus try to secure the west, whilst Miao and else try to hold the Great Bastion. Again with Skaven there as well. So Cathay/Ogres vs Greenskins vs chaos forces of all kinds but especially kurgan/hung. With the chaos dwarfs trying to outlast the greenskins too.
Theatre 5, and the most important thratre in my opinion: Everyone major wants to control the Vortex. Nagash sents a massive fleet of vampire coast under Harkon to invade lothern and break through the inner sea. Chaos lands in chrace to fight itself through the north. Dark Elves land in Tirannoc to use the chaos for their own gains. Even the Lizardmen show up, because they want the Vortex protected/manipulate it for their purposes.
So HE/Lizardmen vs Vampire coast vs DE vs chaos
Of course many other theatres could be added. But with a set up like it the story could have felt much grander and complex, even if it still ends with the setting ending. A last hurrah were even unplayable factions step out to fight for their worlds survival.
Edit:some spelling
Estrielle was the Everqueen when Finubar became Phoenix King. She died when Tyrion was around a 100 years old in the second book of the Tyrion and Teclis trilogy. That's when Tyrion and Alarielle (Estrielle's daughter) met and fell in love with each other. So Alarielle is then Finubar's daughter? 19:43
Re: Azyr, this is not something Teclis would ever deliberately do, but it almost feels thematically appropriate for Kairos the Fateweaver to have a centuries-long scheme to nick that wind from whoever it would be given to?
oh shoot, i can't believe i missed this video.
Andy, can you tell LM to just release the Queek video already?
He’ll release it when I have 5K subs on this side. 😁 Or so he tells me.
He's holding Queek hostage. We need more subscribers for Lawhammer or else Sotek kills Queek in front of us all.
love these yall! keep them up!
Mazdamundi as the elemental of light I so cool!
I kinda did that for one of my games. It was a crazy game, though...
Incredible episode, thanks guys.
1:53:46 better idea, final book we turn Ulthan into a flying troop carrier before we crash it into the swarms of chaos. We shall call this maneuver “black ark rain”.
commenting to help the algorithm, thanks for info boys :)
Khazrak the good Beastman incarnate of beasts would be so fucking good. I love the concept of good beastmen. I love that they exist in 40k, though they never show up. Khazrak would be amazing.
Great discussion subbed 👍
I wonder if the Chaos Gods were so willing to allow the End Times play out was because this wasn't the only world their influence touched.
Didn't know much about the end times, just a lot of people hating it. I started my warhammer journey at the end of AoS 1st edition, didn't know there was a fantasy before that for a long time. Moved onto 40k quite soon after. And now learning more and more about WFB. I now get why people HEAVILY dislike or flatout hate the end times. Years or even decades of lore pretty much straight down the drain. That sucks big time.
Can't wait for part 2 with more inevitable rants!
Shen Yang and Quai Yin must've left the planet before the end times concluded, hopefully with the dragon children and the people of Cathay.
I’m relatively new to WH. Really loved this. More please esp about how it could have been handled differently!
When writing the end times, you need to make a list of all of the major characters and at least one thing the HAVE to do. The second thing to keep in mind is that any victory, on any side, needs to be pyrrhic one.
So, here's a random thought, I know this is a bit of a long haul suggestion, but What about if you did like a once a month you pick a single faction and discuss what happened to them in the end times and how you think they should have been done differently. The thing that brings this thought to my head is when you were talking about the dwarves and how the old runes would have regained their old power, to go into a deep dive on what things could or should have happened with the various factions, this also would allow you to break the end times up into more manageable segments.
and yes, I understand that this sets you guys up for a few years worth of content XD
I assume what you say is accurate, but the wiki says something different about Settra's end, which I much prefer. Basically, Nagesh tears his body apart, his soul is becoming unbound to his corpse, the Tomb King equivalent of bleeding out, and the Chaos Gods offer to empower him and make him king again, and Settra just ignores them. We know Settra would never serve, so he doesn't even have to say anything for us to know he's going to choose death, and it's a quiet, tiny moment of strength for the character. Maybe it got retconned or something, or the wiki is wrong.
Just about the most wholesome nerd-rage I've seen. You two seem like the right people to have this talk, to express your negative opinions without too much negativity and with plenty of humour.
"If you're going to set up your new game, do you really want it to be the game of White guy with blue eyes and blonde hair. Is that the game you're really trying to start. It is not what I would have I thought the best art of their next game anyway. But sure, that's what they went for." -Andy Law
Celestial Dragon Emperor has got to be the pick for Azyr. He's basically already an incarnate of Azyr and arguably the entire nation of Cathay only exists because he saw the future and has some plan. Though I also think that one could be another Chamon situation but with the Celestial Dragon Emperor having crafted some device to capture it. He's been working on something. What has he been working on?
Li dao the Fire Dragon as the Incarnation of Aqshy is hilariously spot on to me.
Late comment but I would KILL for a fan made supplement for like Old World rules of the End Times by Lorebeards
3:22:38 Shame I missed the stream, cause I will die on the hill that Kinslayer is a top 3 Gotrek and Felix book, sometimes I think it might be my favorite. Slayer has some really cool shit too.
Thanquol only getting a cameo was a little lame, but that is entirely due to the role Thanquol was playing in the other End Times books.
Okay but hear me out. Bring the Haven to AOS as Old World introduces the Bretonnian line proper, so everybody can use the new models for both games. Have AOS bretonnians be champions of the Lady who's become a goddess in her own right thanks to the centuries of faith and dying in hwr name. Have new Brets and Lady be holy undead or at least animated holy armor to directly oppose Nagash and his 75 different models lol. Bam, Bretonnia in AOS
Also your ideas about Karl Franz and Archaon got me wondering how much story is there about Karl in the lore? I know hes popular now because of the TW games but there doesn't seem to be much story about him like no books or anything.
Old lore but he is in the Drachenfels novel
GW and their "but Warhammer Fantasy wasn't profitable" in a single question. They applied the same 40K logic to fantasy's guidelines and rules in black library, and they refused to support Fantasy. Part of why I call all of AoS's "huge initial success" a fat lie.
Dear God these ain't getting any shorter are they?
No, they are not. And this time we only covered about half what we wanted to!
SHORT?!?!
@@LAWhammerdo the other half! We wants it, precious!
I think Finubar was married to Alarielle's mother before the Great War started. She died in the prologue of Sword of Caledor.
I don't dislike Mallobaude becoming a vampire, but I definitely think that it should have been more along the lines him knowing about the blood knights and or the Red Duke, and feeling he need's the power to take on his father, but Arkhan doesn't make sense, for sure, unless he was sort of behind the scenes if you really wanted him to show up for the staff of nagash or something. But I do like the Idea of Mallobaude embracing the darkness for "The Right Reasons".
Bela'kor as Shadow Incarnate would make for strange bedfellows. He could work against the Chaos Gods.
Much like the suggestion of the wind of metal going into the throne of power, i almost like the idea of the wind of life going into the oak of ages. Giving Athel Loren a magical supercharge to grow out of control, have the world itself fighting for survival as well. And because demons vs forest spirits is always badass in my opinion.
Know what?
Feck it
You have another subscriber, Andy
Wooooooooot! Thanks so much!
who ever gets to add to albion lore down the line I hope this is where we could get some order like beast-men.
Monkey King and Deathmaster Snikch or Nightlord Sneek fighting it out for being the Incarnate of Ulgoo?
I think Settra could be a good choice for the Wind of Fire: He’s a fiery temperamental person, he has a ton of solar and fire imagery, and there’s a level of irony as Tomb Kings are typically weak to fire but he embodies Fire, and it would build up Settra as more of rival to Nagash.
please please please tell me how i can stop this channel constantly playing!
Sounds like they could have fixed the Settra weirdness by having Nagash leave Settra bound to his ruined body in the same way that he left Alkadizzar alive. As one final petty fuck you to force Settra to sit and watch helplessly as Nagash won. And from there you have the Chaos Gods, just like the Skaven did for Alkadizzar, offer to help.
Yes please do talk for hours. 24 hour sleepstream please. 😂
Narratively speaking I find the lizardmen idea very unsatisfying, I agree that they should leave eventually, but it would feel very bad if they literally don't matter for the end times (like they do in the actual endtimes😓). I think it would be a lot more exciting if they make one last desperate attempt to rectify the great plan, only leaving after that fails and the planet is truly lost.
That's largely what was suggested in the stream, although the step-by-step process may have been lost in the nerd-raging and counter-suggestions.
I.e.: the Lizardmen fight, and fight hard. Near the end, the Incarnate plan is enacted by Teclis. Mazdamundi realises what the Great Plan actually is at that point and enacts the getaway right before the end, just before the Lizardmen are destroyed. Or something similar. Lots of potential for Epic there.
So, in essence, agreed.
@@LAWhammerah, that makes alot of sense, I thought the incarnates appeared sooner in the story
Azyr would have gone to the Dragon Emperor. No doubt about it.
It's Yuan Bo for Azyr, he can cast comment of cassandora in dragon
the fact we lost out on a fight between the massive titans of skytitans and dragon ogres is pretty sad.
All the lightning that never happened!
Personally I think Azyr would have been a chance to introduce Cathay as it goes into the Emperor. He fits the description of a "thing or person" that could wield it to a T... Lore of shadow for the Empress(too many cathay characters get a lore though so) my next suggestion would be someone like Sniktch or Morathi, she's all about deception and illusions and peering all into the future with some Hekarti bs, and being about the darker side of elves). And for lore of Beasts maybe even Thrott the unclean with his endless maddenning hunger would make a great incarnate since we won't be using Thanquol for shadow.
Andy gave Aqshy to the Cathayan Dragons, so was loathe to give another wind to them. 1 was enough.
Honestly if you wanted to get rid of Krell, he should have faught Harald Hammerstorm and lost to him. To have a former champion of chaos, now undead, fight the first-written champion sounds very poetic, in a way.
Id reference the End times, but certainly redo it start from scratch and do a FULL fucking end times. They want to milk the Hours Heresy for all the bullshit they can, give us our 20ish books about the end of the world.
Mother Ostankya is the Incarnation of Beasts 😂
Nagash did not kill Settra. He tore his limbs and head from his torso. This left Settras head to witness Khemrus destruction. Nagash did not want him dead.
Archaon using Ghalmaraz to smash and crack the world at Middenheim is my end.
Unless Nagash stops him and saves the world.
What if the maw was the incarnation of beasts and it got legs and walked away
After watching so many of these I have decided to do an unserious campaign of Warhammer fantasy roleplay where the characters are given a vision sent by an aspect of tzeentch and sigmar that otherworldly "writer" entities have mucked about with fate and the Characters need to stop key aspects of this fate from coming to pass so that the world may continue.
Sotek and Andy, why dont you do a Kickstarter to rewrite the endtimes books.
Yes its Fanfic but it would be awesome
...but why would anyone hate Volkmar?
>Play against him as Settra/Mannfred.
Oh that's why.
In an alternative universe where Andy and Sotek's reimagined End Times was the actual lore of the End Times release, i probably would've looked at Age of Sigmar with a bittersweet interest rather than such immense disgust.
honestly i believe if skrag and greasus fought greasus would kick skrags ass in, like my man has the power of sky titans and is smarter than any ogre and he would make a good beast wind avatar think about it beasts dont have to be mindless wolves will stalk prey, animals use camo to wait for food. and he has the power to back it up due to his scepter. (and also belakor is the type of mofo to betray chaos and teclis goes "fine fine" and just tosses him the wind)
also small thing felt that drycha should have done the "wounded arial" thing then got cured like the main plot and the fused allarial just uses magic to kinda just make her go back to sleep that would have been a great ending in my opinion
My incarnates
Fire: Gotrek, Dragon Emperor, li dao, imrik, or Tyrion
Life: Alarielle/Ariel
Beasts: Mother O, Nakai, or Orion
Metal: Gelt, Grombrindal, or Go-Rok
Heavens:Dragon Empress, Miao-Ying, or Kroak
Light: Sigmar/KF, volkmar, or Kroq-Gar, or mazdamundi
Death: Nagash
Shadow: Alith Anar, oxyotl, or monkey king
Chaos incarnates(for fun)
Fire: Archaon, skarbrand, drazoath, or gaulrauch
Life: Festus o kugath
Beasts: malagor, throgg, or throt
Metal: astrogath, ikit, or taurox
Heavens: kholek, gaulrauch, azazel, or kairos
Light: moonclaw or sigvald
Death: snikch, queek, kemler, Krell, Harald hammer
Shadow: snikch, Belekor, changeling, or manfred
Deathmaster Sniktch should be the incarnate of shadows in my opinion.
Wind of fire should have brought hashut/one of the chorfs to the forefront
Lileath has a woman moment.
Universe blows up.
Yep, thats about right.
It's a long stream so I'm going to be catching up to it throughout the week during my commute. But ever since the Lawbeards Malekith video I had a theory as to why Malekith is the "True" Phoenix King. Why Asuryan forgives him etc in the End Times. It's honestly very simple too. Malekith is the "True" Phoenix King for one reason. He is to Asuryan at least, his son. After all Aenarion was his Avatar.
Yuan boo should be azyr incarnate
Oh my god I knew Lileath was stupid but it is worse even. How can it even still be canon when it directly contradicts even Old World
just call it a gas leak year
Listening to lore master and shrek talk about warhammer was a highlight for me
Thanks to total war series , i am introduced in to warhammer fantasy . Karl Franz, Tyrion, Teclis , GRIMGOR , cathay's dragon, warhammer dwarf, Skaven etc etc. Other than characcter or race, warhammer fantasy have a interresting world with various of meaningful, historical landmark.
These are familiar to me, my first memory on this fantasy settings. About five years ago, in the same year after i get into total war warhammer game, i realised that there is a book about the end of this fantasy series. The moment i learned the story, i hate it very much.
My first thought is , these group of character should not be the one who facing the end. Of course history tend to repeat itself, so end times eventually came, but it should be like after some time or centuries later.
So... as a complete newcomer to the lore of WHFRP.... this episode contains a huge amount of interesting lore, although it gets quite confusing. But there is also description of a truly apalling amount of bad design and sickening writing. Thus: It is a useful thing to watch for a newcomer, but maybe keep notes as one does so.... and for the subject material I am going to bite my tongue.
Except it does beg my question: How might the fan-base rewrite the Endtimes "properly", and so they don't end in despair?
(I can endure the nerd-rage largely because I totally relate. What I found difficult to cope with was the amount of poor quality subject material!)