The Secret Reason George R R Martin Will Never Finish A Song of Ice and Fire

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  • Опубліковано 21 лис 2024
  • A small interview that was put into one of his books as an afterthought turns out to be the most illuminating information regarding George R R Martin's writing style and why he will never finish A Song of Ice and Fire.
    I hope I'm wrong. I hope years from now people look back at this video and call me an idiot, but based on his own words I think George will never finish his series.

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  • @oscarlindahl5662
    @oscarlindahl5662 8 місяців тому +187

    Leave this man alone and go outside

    • @marcellusrobinson1465
      @marcellusrobinson1465 8 місяців тому +86

      No

    • @oscarlindahl5662
      @oscarlindahl5662 8 місяців тому

      @@marcellusrobinson1465 valid

    • @SirBallsDeepOfHouseManthrust
      @SirBallsDeepOfHouseManthrust 7 місяців тому +20

      I don’t buy that logic. We’ve all given our money to him and he kind of does owe it to his fans to finish what he started. I’m not into harassing anyone, but that whole “he doesn’t owe you anything” thing is bullshit. It’s literally how he makes a living.

    • @bry8636
      @bry8636 7 місяців тому +54

      I think we can all appreciate the irony of someone who just watched a 20 minute breakdown on something they don’t agree with telling others to ‘go outside’.

    • @IAmTheEagleHTM
      @IAmTheEagleHTM 7 місяців тому +20

      ​@@bry8636if he even watched it that is

  • @jamesgravil9162
    @jamesgravil9162 Рік тому +171

    "Do I really look like a guy with a plan?"
    - George R.R. Martin. Or The Joker, possibly.

    • @EtLi-i6j
      @EtLi-i6j 8 місяців тому +3

      The likelihood for Mr. Martin to be out of this world this year is higher than that of his book being out in this world this year.

    • @Dani_1012
      @Dani_1012 5 місяців тому +1

      😂😂😂😢

  • @phillipmargrave
    @phillipmargrave Рік тому +1030

    I think he doesn’t want to finish. Partially he doesn’t want it to be over and partially he’s afraid the ending of the story won’t be epic enough to justify all the hype and attention it got before it was completed.

    • @blacktemplarbrotherlucius1935
      @blacktemplarbrotherlucius1935 Рік тому +92

      It probably doesn't help (for him) that the GoT community have made alot of predictions using any information they have at hand. George probably doesn't want people's predictions to be right given them that satisfaction, rather he likes to come from a left field to stab you in the rib then scurry away like a friend.

    • @pancakesean6888
      @pancakesean6888  Рік тому +153

      In making this video I watched dozens of interviews with him and he seems to suffer from a bit of a confidence issue. That part where he talks about checking his email and thinking he has no talent is quite telling.
      I imagine that combined with his lack of discipline really creates a recipe for disaster. Despite shitting on him in this video I truly do hope he gets some help and completes this amazing series.

    • @elgringogordo
      @elgringogordo Рік тому +41

      @@pancakesean6888 i dont like this lack of discipline point. dude has been publishing novels since the late 70s and was a competitive chess player and professor. I get he hasn't finished one series, but he's 80-- what is your 80 year old grandpa doing?

    • @noirekuroraigami2270
      @noirekuroraigami2270 Рік тому +3

      @@pancakesean6888 y'all people need to relax, you guys sound crazy

    • @spencers4121
      @spencers4121 Рік тому +56

      @@elgringogordo Never finishing a series is the very lack of discipline.

  • @jonathancampbell5231
    @jonathancampbell5231 Рік тому +345

    To be fair, when Stephen King wrote his own epic fantasy saga (The Dark Tower), it took him years to finish it as well, and it took being run over with a car to get him back into it.
    Neither King nor Martin plan out their stories much (Martin probably plans it out more); they both prefer to write intuitively and see where the story is going. The problem is that this style of writing is better for stand alone stories, not 7 book doorstoppers.

    • @waseom
      @waseom Рік тому +31

      I think this is exactly right - this writing style can actually be fantastic and work out great, but ASOIAF has turned into a cautionary tale about applying that writing style to projects this huge.

    • @collaborativelearning1
      @collaborativelearning1 Рік тому +5

      Made it too complex probably to wrap it up easily.

    • @olofacosta3192
      @olofacosta3192 Рік тому +10

      ​@@collaborativelearning1 true but still. 13 years is a lot of time

    • @SteveChiverton
      @SteveChiverton Рік тому +25

      Yes but in reality we are now talking about ONE book taking 13 years rather than a seven book series. And he's definitely NOT going to finish the next one [and thence the seven book series] as I think the planet would die of natural causes before that happened. And as for King doing the same style at least King FINISHES AND DELIVERS THE BLOODY BOOKS!is YES, it took King 22 years to complete his Dark Tower series, BUT between publishing The Gunslinger in '82 and finally publishing Dark Tower VII in 04 his output was a further 24 novels, 14 screenplays, 5 essay collections, and 7 short story and 'other' collections. Thats only his output from BETWEEN 82 and 04's publication. That's Kings DISCIPLINED output for 22 years whether he's mapped them out or not. Quite immense really. Martin just doesn't possess the discipline and is happy to let his extremely frustrated readers down whilst insulting them for their criticism of him failing to deliver a series THEY committed to and invested in with THEIR CASH. Whereas King....well how does he ALWAYS refer to us? DEAR READER. THAT says a lot. What is the true 'big difference'? I think it's that we KNEW that despite the delay, Stephen King WOULD deliver the final volume. I don't think there is anybody left really who thinks that Martin will. And sadly, he doesn't even seem to care.

    • @petrilofberg1758
      @petrilofberg1758 Рік тому +5

      @@waseom grr martin should try
      Cocaine

  • @aithjawcraig9876
    @aithjawcraig9876 Рік тому +550

    The fact that Martin didn't plan out his stories in advance and the fact that they don't follow the typical set up/pay off format is what made them so popular in the first place. It was almost like a sprawling D&D campaign.
    At this point though, ANY ending would be good enough.

    • @collaborativelearning1
      @collaborativelearning1 Рік тому

      eventually it must end. In my opinion it can be done by him if he puts himself to it.

    • @grigturcescu6190
      @grigturcescu6190 Рік тому +43

      well you have an ending in the show. Is that good enough?

    • @MightyAvengingLeo
      @MightyAvengingLeo Рік тому +30

      Having had several multi-year sprawling RPG campaigns where the players wanted a proper ending, this comment makes sense. A person has all these cool side characters and neat plot seeds that need an ending but the same person doesn't really have a clue on how to wrap it all up in one nice package. That being said...if in these situations I had millions of fans wanting an ending and didn't have to work 40 hours a week, I think I'd "do my duty" to the fans. Maybe not.
      BTW, Pancake Sean asked if Stephen King is a better writer because he finishes books, I'd say it's more a matter of Stephen King not being afraid of bad endings. He's had some great books with lousy endings.

    • @MrMilla22
      @MrMilla22 Рік тому +19

      Well not any ending look at the show

    • @Dendelin007
      @Dendelin007 Рік тому +4

      @@grigturcescu6190 haha good point sir

  • @drag0ngam31ng6
    @drag0ngam31ng6 Рік тому +439

    As a writer, I can defiently say our minds don't work right. I come up with stories from scenes, most often endings, and I work backwards to figure out how everything got there. Not having a plan isn't bad in of itself but I do think you should know where you're going.

    • @Spongebrain97
      @Spongebrain97 Рік тому +10

      Im writing a story right now and think I have a pretty good understanding with the setting and overall plot but I am fuzzy about where it is going and how it'll end. Like I keep switching back and forth between a document on world building/each character's plot and the chapters themselves

    • @KevinSorbo.
      @KevinSorbo. Рік тому +3

      Cause you can’t know where you’re going without knowing where you’re from ROOTS

    • @rockmangurlx4973
      @rockmangurlx4973 Рік тому +5

      Outlining exists for a reason.

    • @saldiven2009
      @saldiven2009 Рік тому +1

      Knowing where you're beginning and where you'll end is really important to writing a good story; the story is about how you connect those two points. Interestingly, that's how Wheel of Time was done (though, Jordan let himself get carried away with connecting the beginning and ending that he had in mind from the very beginning).

    • @porky1118
      @porky1118 Рік тому +1

      I should try this, too. Some time ago I've written an ending for a story. Maybe some day I should try to make a whole story out of this?

  • @runkelpokk9
    @runkelpokk9 Рік тому +212

    8:18 Tolkien made up a language and was like "oh boy i better write some history about it"

    • @NicoleSams
      @NicoleSams 9 місяців тому +11

      Imagine if he didn’t? And Quenya, Sindarin, Black Speech were all improvised with no lexicon? I wonder about Dothraki.

  • @RJ-xj2vf
    @RJ-xj2vf Рік тому +125

    George started writing A Dance of Dragons in the year 2000. The book became too big so he split it in two. Released the first half, AFFC, in 2005. Then released the actual titled book ADWD in 2012! But the book ADWD was also too big. So its ending had to be pushed to the beginning of TWOW. Which we still haven't gotten! We have some sample chapters
    So technically speaking the book "A Dance of Dragons" has been in writing process for over 23 years now and it still hasn't been finished.
    For example, we have the first Arya sample chapter for TWOW. George wrote it back in 2001. It was supposed to be the first chapter for Arya in ADWD. but it kept getting pushed up. And it still hasn't been officially released.

    • @olofacosta3192
      @olofacosta3192 Рік тому +18

      Yup. Another reason why the book has taken so long is that George quite literally hasn't even released the ending for a dance with dragons. I remember when the book first came out,he got Hella criticism for leaving out the two climactic battles of the books. The battle of fire and the battle of ice. We still haven't seen them and I think that was a MASSIVE mistake

    • @Dani_1012
      @Dani_1012 Рік тому +3

      Well this at least gives me a little hope that if the book does come out some part of ADOS will be written, so that even if he passes it will still be the last book and finding the hints of what will be the ending will be easy to find in TWOW

  • @stealth11
    @stealth11 Рік тому +149

    The last novel came out in 2011, the same year that the TV series premiered. The show became too large in a sense of George, and the characters that were once only in his mind, were suddenly in flesh and blood on the screen being interpreted by actors. I think this messed up his own head canon and made it more difficult for him to return to that world.

    • @collaborativelearning1
      @collaborativelearning1 Рік тому +4

      got tired, probably.

    • @questmarq7901
      @questmarq7901 Рік тому +11

      Exactly. Ive been trying to come up with my books story for 3 years now, if i had someone else also trying to make a version of it, it would totally had derailed me

  • @pinecactus9672
    @pinecactus9672 Рік тому +195

    Writing is part creativity and part discipline. It is also like a muscle, you can get tired and need a break but take a too long break and it's hard to get back into it.

    • @terrylandess6072
      @terrylandess6072 Рік тому +5

      He's spent a great many years with just these characters - I'd be getting burnt out as well. It'd get to the point where I have a number of 'outcomes' in a hat and just start randomly choosing, then writing it together and moving on. It's wouldn't be too different from what we got.

    • @collaborativelearning1
      @collaborativelearning1 Рік тому +6

      interesting insight. In my opinion he expended too many of his best ideas over so many pages. It takes time to develop new, equally good ideas

  • @masterg6882
    @masterg6882 Рік тому +434

    I don't think George is alone in his approach. Leo Tolstoy, who shares some similariries with Martin, never had any idea, how his story will end. He cried, when he understood than Anna Karenina have to die in the end of the book. He even started writing War and Peace as a story about Decembrist revolt but got sidetraked so much, he wrote a novel about Napoleonic wars. For a contemporary example, Hirohiko Araki allegedly doesn't plan his stories ahead, and you can see it. But I still agree that the Ice and Fire won't be finished, George created an amazingly complicated and fantastic world, too complicated for his own good

    • @twilightgardenspresentatio6384
      @twilightgardenspresentatio6384 Рік тому +10

      I hate realizing my favorite characters die in stories when I’m writing. I think my problem is that to me- no story ever ends. How do I choose where to stop?

    • @todortodorov5299
      @todortodorov5299 Рік тому +16

      It's not complicated, he likes it for you to think it is.

    • @rudolffatransky581
      @rudolffatransky581 Рік тому +3

      Maybe you can use this writing method, if you want to write one book, but writing a series of books is incompatible with this method.

    • @tuckernutter
      @tuckernutter Рік тому

      I like how you reference Araki because he forgets stuff all the time, sometimes it's intended because he doesn't like looking back and strives forward but that has its drawbacks. Like spoiler but the ending of part 6 is the best example although he was apparently being rushed by his editors.

    • @ceinwenchandler4716
      @ceinwenchandler4716 Рік тому +1

      @@twilightgardenspresentatio6384 Try to arrange for many of the plot threads to have been wrapped up by a certain time. That time should be right before the climax. The climax should be the biggest, most exciting & cathartic part of the book. Then, tie up what remains in the resolution, in which you may hint at more story to follow but should not start up an entire new thread. Not yet.
      I'm sorry if that isn't helpful. I used to have the exact same problem you say you do - to me, the story didn't end until all the characters had died of old age and the civilization they were in had fallen. I still write out that much material; it just stays in my writer's notes rather than making it into the story.
      And somehow, I can't remember how I made it from point A to point B.

  • @marcelocoronado7805
    @marcelocoronado7805 Рік тому +90

    GRRM is never going to finish. While he is kind of right, in that Tolkien never finished his entier Legendarium either, Tolkien did finish his main series. Just not all the supplemental work that he kept tweaking, rewriting, and rethinking until the end of his life.

    • @mateuscristianschannelen961
      @mateuscristianschannelen961 8 місяців тому +8

      And the reason Tolkien didn't finish the Legendarium is because he DIED before finishing the next book.

  • @SmashboiSchwift
    @SmashboiSchwift Рік тому +932

    You can't compare lines from Tolkiens books to the Dickon trash D&D wrote

    • @SalamiCheeks
      @SalamiCheeks Рік тому +276

      Yea that was just dumb to compare George’s writing with those late season lines.

    • @MarcusBlackfyre1
      @MarcusBlackfyre1 Рік тому +151

      yeah I don't understand what he's trying to do there

    • @Jimabair
      @Jimabair Рік тому +26

      Agreed

    • @tjcalderwood8441
      @tjcalderwood8441 Рік тому +76

      Exactly. Of course he wouldn’t put in tyrions trial as a comparison. Show or book. So many gems in the first 4 seasons of the show.

    • @jdsawyer7895
      @jdsawyer7895 Рік тому +29

      Yeah that was stupid. Just read AGOT Daenerys X or Septon Meribald’s broken men speech.

  • @DavidSmith-mt7tb
    @DavidSmith-mt7tb Рік тому +172

    The Gardner approach often makes characters feel more believable cause you're letting them write themselves and such, and it works in standalone novels cause you can go back and make changes when things didn't work out. But for a multipart epic you have to be more of an architect. To do it great you have to design your characters to where it will make sense they make the choices you need them to make. You can do some limited gardening on the way, but too much and you write yourself into a corner.

    • @pancakesean6888
      @pancakesean6888  Рік тому +25

      100% agree. For something as large as ASOIAF I just don't think being a gardener will cut it.

    • @drummerguy438
      @drummerguy438 Рік тому +14

      @@pancakesean6888 As a writer yourself you should know that statement is a little silly though. It sounds like you far prefer to outline your work before you get to it. How would it feel if someone said you had to write your next book entirely unplanned? would that be something you could "just do"? It's the same for Gardeners. We can't just "decide" to plan out the book.
      I don't deny that Martin is in quite the pickle with his writing, and that gardening made this whole process more complicated for himself, but that's how his mind works. It's how he processes information. There is no one size fits all strategy here. There is no easy fix.

    • @olofacosta3192
      @olofacosta3192 Рік тому +14

      ​@@drummerguy438 George doesn't need to be an architect but he does need to learn how to trim his garden. You can't wait 13 years for one book when you previously made 3 books in 4 years. Clearly something has gone wrong there

    • @drummerguy438
      @drummerguy438 Рік тому +6

      @@olofacosta3192 Oh for sure. He's found himself in a predicament. If I were him, I'd be asking for help honestly.
      He's 5 books in, he's got so many characters all bouncing around in his head, its bound to be challenging.
      I have a personal theory, fully unsupported but just through context and situational awareness. I think WoW was genuinely taking longer to write for a time, but then season 6,7,8 of the show came out. He started to see how his prompts for David and Dan were being received. I think he saw the negative feedback on plot points from the show, plans he'd made and intended for his book.
      I think he figured he'd need to change things to avoid the blowback, but as a result suddenly things stopped making sense, characters stopped having natural motivations. He found his garden tangled and marred by indecision.
      As I said before, If I were him I'd ask for help. He's clearly struggling, and there's nothing wrong with admitting it.

    • @machandelverlagcharlotteer8698
      @machandelverlagcharlotteer8698 9 місяців тому

      Not true. I know "gardeners" who succeed with 10 volumes of their story. But - and that is a very big but, they take notes, and add a timeline - after writing the book - so that the next book they write fits in neatly.
      Ane they re-read the whole thing they have written before writing the next book, so it is all fresh in their memory. That of course takes discipline as well.

  • @otakubullfrog1665
    @otakubullfrog1665 Рік тому +44

    Tolkien actually left plenty of writings unfinished, but everyone forgives him for that because he finished Lord of the Rings. If he'd never gotten around to releasing The Return of the King and instead managed to complete a few more books of tales rather than leaving them for Christopher to sift through, he might not be so well regarded today. We're all here on this earth for a limited time and how we choose to set our priorities does a lot to affect our legacies.

    • @rickpgriffin
      @rickpgriffin 8 місяців тому +13

      Tolkien was also not a career writer. He was a professor who dabbled in this world in his spare time.

    • @ignaciocamargo
      @ignaciocamargo 2 місяці тому +2

      Well to be honest he actually finished
      the whole trilogy in at once it was the publisher that divided the book

  • @rotwang2000
    @rotwang2000 Рік тому +127

    It is foreshadowed in Dragons, the story is expanding with yet more characters, when really it should be in cruising mode and trimming off plot lines rather than add them. GRRM is so enraptured with the world he wants to expand it and add more and more and that's why he can't finish Winter because he expanded it too and now it's huge and bloated with too many side plots and characters and he's stuck because he added too many bits rather than trim them.

    • @oceanpacific3841
      @oceanpacific3841 Рік тому +17

      I noticed that too with dance of the dragons the story which is expanding getting bigger more characters and I was thinking man you got to wrap this up but he didn't

    • @gdbssa
      @gdbssa Рік тому

      If I created the most fleshed out fantasy series of all time I'd want to add more to it too.

    • @ceinwenchandler4716
      @ceinwenchandler4716 Рік тому +13

      @@gdbssa Yeah, but if it's better for the story, you have to know when to suppress that urge. It's a necessary skill if you want to be a fantasy writer. Maybe you could write binders full of lore that DON'T make it into the story instead, then gab about that endlessly any time someone gives you the slightest chance.
      ...that's what I do with the stuff that doesn't fit into my stories. It's not the greatest coping mechanism, but whatever.

    • @anon2427
      @anon2427 9 місяців тому

      @@gdbssahe could’ve written more lore books after like the Silmarillion but now it’s not going to be fleshed out in writing at all. Now we get nothing and his legacy will be a “what if?”.

    • @donaldjgumpofficial5754
      @donaldjgumpofficial5754 2 місяці тому

      @@anon2427 It will probably benefit his legacy not to finish. I find it hard to believe that the ending would've been good considering the amount of answers the last two books need to provide. As it stands, a lot of plot threads make little sense right now and we're heading into the 2nd last book(assuming they're similar in size to the other 5).
      How is he going to rationalise Jaqen H'ghar's actions? What is Doran's plan if any? What is even going on in the Riverlands right now? What are the Hightowers doing? What is up with the Shrouded Lord? etc. Are some or most of these going to be abandoned?
      That doesn't even include main characters like Daenerys, Arya, and Bran. How is Daenerys going to get from her current situation to taking over Westeros, fight against the Others and/or the Children of the Forest in two books? It feels like he'll have to rush it. She's set up to return to Vaes Dothrak, maybe Qarth, maybe go to Asshai. We probably don't have the time for that so much of it will just be abandoned. They really dropped the ball with late season Arya in the show but what does George even do with her? She only made it to Braavos in AFFC. She can't be in Faceless Man training for more than a year or so and still remain in the story which doesn't seem long enough to become an expert assassin like in the show. The whole Faceless Man concept is so ill-conceived anyway and this story needed a time gap like Martin originally planned. With Bran, it's really difficult to make time travel make sense especially in a convoluted story such as this. How is this character not just going to steamroll everybody that opposes his plans?
      A finished ASOIAF is probably going to be a mess. In hindsight, he rushed the first few books and got tangled up. The show actually did a pretty good job of simplifying the world to the point where it could be adequately finished(they fumbled it of course).

  • @jimboslice214
    @jimboslice214 Рік тому +126

    In one of the appendices from the extended edition of LOTR they mention how Tolkien was literally in the trenches on the front lines of WW1 already writing stuff about middle earth, nearly 50 years before Fellowship was published

    • @TheSorrel
      @TheSorrel Рік тому +30

      Yeah, and none of that was important for the characters or the plot of the story. Tolkien wanted to write an episodic sequel to the Hobbit, which somehow turned into the Lord of the Rings.
      Planning is really not the issue here.

    • @pancakesean6888
      @pancakesean6888  Рік тому +20

      @@TheSorrel I would half agree with you here. You are correct that Tolkien wanted to write a sequel to the hobbit that was a little adventure. If I recall correctly he had written the story all the way to when they arrive in Rivendell before he knew exactly where it would go. I could be wrong about that but I think I read that somewhere.
      Where I would disagree is that because Tolkien had a wealth of foundational writing he was able to pull from that foundational work (including The Hobbit) in order to steer the story in a good direction and not hit a brick wall. I think Martin has found himself in a similar, albeit far deeper, hole but because he had no foundational writings or planning for Asoiaf he is really struggling.
      So I think the issue is twofold with planning being one part of the issue and dedication being the other part.

    • @V_i_vi_an
      @V_i_vi_an Рік тому +6

      @@pancakesean6888 George has said, time and time again, that he knows where he's going. There's an outline online detailing the whole story when it was concieved as a trilogy. George has a plan, the issue is his world expanded, he started to write about the secular regions and now he's having issues bringing the original plan together, that's very different to what you're arguing here. Again, bad faith argument.
      Also, the quality of his prose is completely subjective. I find his writing extremely brutal but also melancholic at times, if you don't appretiate it, that's ok, but saying it's season 8 quality of writing, that's just you being kind of a c*nt.

    • @TheSorrel
      @TheSorrel Рік тому +7

      @@pancakesean6888 I dunno man, I can't really bring myself to agree with the points in your video.
      You're basing all if it on tales about how he started off working on the books, and assume he hasn't changed his writing process at all in, like, 30 years. Then you criticise things like how he approached world building, which would be fair criticism if his world building was actually, you know, shit.
      Then you compare him to yourself, put some faint self-criticism in front so people can't use it against you (my book sucks lol) just to call an Author lazy who has published more words on a page in your current lifetime than you might ever write.
      And then, finally, you have the nerve to use "Avalon" of an exsample of a work he dropped because it was "too hard". Are you insane? If you really write so much, you should have a drawer full of scrapped ideas, scripts and stories too, just like any other writer.

    • @michaelwills1926
      @michaelwills1926 Рік тому +3

      @@TheSorrel Tolkien finished his book 🥴

  • @serobesehightower4041
    @serobesehightower4041 9 місяців тому +13

    Just occurred to me the guy that interviewed George in fire and blood, the British historian Dan Jones, has written 8 history books and 2 novels since a dance with dragons was released.

  • @purefoldnz3070
    @purefoldnz3070 Рік тому +28

    as someone that has written two novels. Having a good outline is a necessity, even if you throw it out the window.

    • @bad-people6510
      @bad-people6510 Рік тому

      As someone who has written four, and I still don't consider myself a writer, even a vague outline will get the job done.
      I'm a creative, not a writer. I jump radically between genres and mediums. But when I'm in a writing phase I write pages. I kicked myself for writing only four pages in a day specifically BECAUSE I knew I'd lose interest.

    • @purefoldnz3070
      @purefoldnz3070 Рік тому

      @@bad-people6510 yes exactly you have to keep the momentum going

  • @Spartacus547
    @Spartacus547 5 місяців тому +9

    A Dream of Spring! When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, when the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves, then you'll get the last book

  • @minerman60101
    @minerman60101 Рік тому +17

    My position has always been that I'll read the books when he's finished the series (never)

  • @lmaoashley
    @lmaoashley Рік тому +103

    There's a really good video by AdmiralKird called "How can The Winds of Winter fit into The Winds of Winter" that I think also highlights one of George's big problems. His gardener style of writing has made his story so big and full of so many characters that it's IMPOSSIBLE to bring all of his random story threads together into this next book. He's written himself into a very shitty corner.

    • @DavidSmith-mt7tb
      @DavidSmith-mt7tb Рік тому +15

      Exactly. Pretty sure he worked backwards from the end initially. Like he set up the R+L=J thing and unfolded it slowly. Clearly the White Walkers were designed to be a looming threat that would hit fully at the end, throwing everything else into chaos. Given he tested Benioff and Weiss about this stuff at the start of GoT, I'm pretty sure their ending was mostly similar to his "outline" at that time, at least regarding the major parts.
      But as he wrote stuff he added things, got sidetracked with new ideas he liked, etc. Often you have to realize that certain ideas you think are great may not be in the best interest of the story. So I think he diverged too much by the end and it was hard to reconcile all those changes with all the stuff he set up and foreshadowed before. And then with the end of GoT not being well received, I think he felt he needs to come up with a "better" ending but he still has to reconcile all these plotlines and foreshadowing. It's too hard so he's not doing it.

    • @akeelyaqub2538
      @akeelyaqub2538 Рік тому +1

      Theres a very very easy way to resolve that issue... make the book two issues. The fact that hes so against doing that just shows that he doesnt actually want to finish and release this book. His biggest issue has the easiest fix and he's stated that he doesnt want to do that.

    • @mnirwin5112
      @mnirwin5112 9 місяців тому

      Then let him just say so, instead of continually offering vague and feeble excuses. At this point I wouldn't care if he did finish it; it's been just too long.

    • @a.c.slater7989
      @a.c.slater7989 8 місяців тому

      ​@@akeelyaqub2538Or just start wrapping up character and plot arcs with lightning speed.

    • @nont18411
      @nont18411 4 місяці тому

      That’s why he had to kill a whole lot of characters in his story to conclude it

  • @FearandLoathinginLandonND
    @FearandLoathinginLandonND Рік тому +39

    I think d&D's ending was mostly accurate. GRRM has been rewriting the book since then.

    • @terrylandess6072
      @terrylandess6072 Рік тому +11

      That's why you never start a tv/film series with an unfinished book series - and with the internet making it worse since writer egos can't help but read and try to adapt the material - this covers both Martin and the TV hacks.

    • @stevem2323
      @stevem2323 Місяць тому

      Dany going into madness or war crimes maybe, Bran maybe too. But the way they did is idiotic and white walkers are not gonna be stopped like in the TV show

  • @remo_1231
    @remo_1231 Рік тому +36

    The “discipline creates talent“ is an incredible quote I must say. Cheers

  • @undead9999
    @undead9999 Рік тому +65

    He wrote himself into a corner. He probably had the events mapped out roughly how they played out in the series, and seeing the abysmal reaction to that he doesn't know how to change the story now
    Ps love the Balamb Garden soundtrack ❤

    • @terrylandess6072
      @terrylandess6072 Рік тому +7

      I've seen enough to know there was a significant difference between the books and show with anything they actually shared beyond the basics. Characters locations events . . . . . It wouldn't surprise me if the books were incredibly skewed from the show by now and because the show both died an ugly death and Martin is incredibly rich - why bother? Seriously.

    • @undead9999
      @undead9999 Рік тому +5

      @@terrylandess6072 yeah. That's another point. He simply lost interest in everything. Shame

    • @wshyangify
      @wshyangify Рік тому

      Gotta keep everyone lean to keep them all mean.
      Worldwide communism for the win.

    • @stevem2323
      @stevem2323 Місяць тому

      That could be, but Dany going mad still can work, just written and expanded, not in absolutely idiotic manner like in the TV show.
      Also, white walkers will be something in the books.

  • @apollyontw7863
    @apollyontw7863 Рік тому +33

    I think you are spot on !! I also think one of the things that makes it hard for George is the success of GOT… the millions he has made between book sales and the tv show will have him living comfortably for the remainder of his life…and if he is a “gardener” and he is getting no real spark or inspiration and has no financial motivation to continue with a project then it will most likely never get finished…it’s sad because he could go the route the Wheel of Time went and find a different author to at least help him finish the series but he seems to proud to do it…which means he would rather see it get shelved indefinitely than another author even have a small piece of the pie….sad

    • @terrylandess6072
      @terrylandess6072 Рік тому +2

      Because most anything I ever liked gets cancelled quickly enough, I waited 4 seasons before beginning to watch - and they still got me with a 'less than optimal' ending. Never start a TV/Film series on an unfinished book series.

  • @nont18411
    @nont18411 4 місяці тому +5

    “If you think this will ever have an ending, you’ve never been paying attention.”
    - Ramsay RR Martin, perhaps

  • @Neonsilver13
    @Neonsilver13 Рік тому +12

    He seems happy to ride on the success and just do some side projects for fun, instead of working on the series. Also I think he said in an interview that he doesn't want someone else to finish it when he dies.
    Personally I would even insinuate that a reason why the series went from the initially planned trilogy to the 7 book series it's supposed to become now, is because he had absolutely no idea how to finish it.
    I don't blame him for just wanting to relax now in his old age, but I would have a lot more respect if he came out and admitted that he has no plans to ever finish that series.
    Though just because I don't blame him, doesn't mean I agree with him, as it is likely the only ending "A song of ice and fire" will ever get will be the mediocre tv show ending, personally I would be ashamed if that was my legacy.

  • @gwem1979
    @gwem1979 Рік тому +28

    This is wonderful. As someone who has had a story(stories) in his head for decades now it’s motivating

    • @pancakesean6888
      @pancakesean6888  Рік тому +9

      Two things to keep in mind with writing:
      1. It takes 21 days to develop a habit and 66 to get it embedded in your routine to the extent that not doing it makes you feel uncomfortable. If you want to write daily the first 21 days are the hardest, but once you hit that 66 day mark you will actually feel off when you don't write.
      2. Good books aren't written, they're edited. I've walked away from my 1000 words before thinking "Wow that's total shit." However you can't edit blank paper. Writing total garbage that you can then edit is better than not writing at all.
      Good luck!

    • @gwem1979
      @gwem1979 Рік тому +4

      @@pancakesean6888 good advice. I’ve been using world anvil for a few months and I’ve found its helped provide a bit of focus in regards to worldbuilding but actually writing the story? That’s hard. But I’m slowly getting toward the prologue actually being done

  • @nickwittednonpareil
    @nickwittednonpareil Рік тому +150

    Although it's almost certainly not the case, there is a part of me that hopes Winds has been secretly finished for years and will only actually be released and published by a clause in Martin's last will and testament. The dedication would simply read "Valar Morghulis". A fully planned out post-mortem release to seal his legacy would be absolutely badass.

    • @Bewbscueser
      @Bewbscueser Рік тому +73

      Dad will be home from buying cigarettes any day now!

    • @sagebuchanan9725
      @sagebuchanan9725 Рік тому +3

      That would be amazing

    • @orangmawas3858
      @orangmawas3858 Рік тому +17

      okay, but then what about "a dream of spring"?

    • @michaelxie4084
      @michaelxie4084 Рік тому +32

      Biggest cope theory Ive heard so far. But I'm sympathetic

    • @SvenDzahov
      @SvenDzahov Рік тому +3

      @@orangmawas3858 the books were merged im pretty sure. So instead of two it’s just one massive book

  • @Derekivery
    @Derekivery Рік тому +61

    George gives Gardeners (both literally and figurative) a bad name. If you are growing a garden you have to take care of it every single day.
    As a writer you can be a gardener, you can have no idea how the story will end when you start writing... but you have to write. Most writers say real writing isn't writing it's editing. You do a first draft and then you tweak that until it's perfect, so in that case the first draft can just be "shit happens" writer has no idea where things will go, and then on the re-writes you make sure it makes sense and it flows etc.
    But you have to write. George doesn't want to write Ice&Fire anymore, he's done with it, he's bored with it, he wants to do other stuff.

    • @pancakesean6888
      @pancakesean6888  Рік тому +16

      "If you are growing a garden you have to take care of it every single day."
      Fantastic comparison.

    • @holyleech2159
      @holyleech2159 Рік тому +2

      Goerge is not giving gardeners a bad name, hi still wrote an amazing and huge fantasy world, hi is more showing the limitations on gardeners especially when it comes to long stories.

    • @donaldjgumpofficial5754
      @donaldjgumpofficial5754 2 місяці тому

      The problem is he can't change the old books that he made.

    • @stevem2323
      @stevem2323 Місяць тому

      ​@@holyleech2159Huh? He absolutely left his garden to die and went into a different one.

    • @holyleech2159
      @holyleech2159 Місяць тому

      @@stevem2323 A better description would be that his garden grew too big and complicated and is now incredibly difficult to expand.

  • @luckybynn5788
    @luckybynn5788 Рік тому +48

    I heard him say before that some superfan couple were asking him about details of the books that they remembered better than him. They had been delving into his world and trying to sort everything out with charts and stuff and had actually organized his information better than he had. I'm pretty sure he hired them to keep doing it or something like that.

    • @bishopcruz
      @bishopcruz Рік тому +11

      That's not actually that uncommon. Writing and reading are two different experiences and stick in one's brain differently.

    • @collaborativelearning1
      @collaborativelearning1 Рік тому +7

      Fire and Blood was made with the help of superfans

    • @NicoleSams
      @NicoleSams 9 місяців тому +5

      @@collaborativelearning1those very two superfans.

  • @pulloutchamp3219
    @pulloutchamp3219 Рік тому +39

    I agree with you but you can't blame George for those later seasons wait what am I saying if he would've finished the books like he said they would've had the material to adapt. You right

    • @DarthNicky
      @DarthNicky Рік тому +1

      It has nothing to do with material to adapt. George gave them an outline to end the series. The showrunners just didn’t want to follow it and rushed the ending when it could have gone on for 3 or 4 more seasons

    • @alex30425
      @alex30425 Рік тому +7

      @@DarthNicky having an outline is very different from an actual full length novel. The showrunners also did follow George’s outline but without the connected tissue, more time, and episodes the show faltered. Even if they had taken their time the show would’ve only gone another 2 seasons since there’s no way a majority of the cast would’ve wanted to go 11+ seasons.

    • @Derekivery
      @Derekivery Рік тому +3

      The “outline” could have been “Dany and Jon have sex, night king steals a dragon, battle at Winterfell, Dany burns kings landing, bran becomes king”
      No one has any idea on how detailed George was, but if he had a detailed outline it is unlikely he would need over 13 years to finish one book

    • @trollfacemafiagaming6036
      @trollfacemafiagaming6036 4 місяці тому

      Not really the show made pivotal changes that are clear to come back later even in early seasons like Starks not all being wargs and later you have Stoneheart, young Griff ect the show didn't adapt feast and dance other than random plot points and if you've read uptill that point you have an idea of the first 25% of winds so no they didn't even adapt all that they had

  • @HierophanticRose
    @HierophanticRose Рік тому +22

    The thing is; the very thing people are hyped about in ASOIAF, namely the interweaving of plot and foreshadowing that comes true and not at the same time, is backing Martin into a corner with all these interlaced stories that he is not able to resolve.
    Also, yes - Tolkien grew his world bit by bit over years but he was much more deliberate with the story and of course a more legendary literary figure I agree. But Martin's prose itself isn't that bad. Things like Broken Men speech, Jaime's prophecy scenes, Euron's scenes etc all have good writing (although a iterative of the evocative language of Lovecraft). The point is, he is not Tolkien, but he's got the writing chops. The issue is he is not very good at making the landing.
    Martin writes fine, he just writes himself to a corner

    • @pancakesean6888
      @pancakesean6888  Рік тому +2

      Your last line is the most succinct way to describe my point in my video, I love it and you are absolutely right.

    • @stevem2323
      @stevem2323 Місяць тому

      Tolkien also have planned out way to finish and he believes, he has faith. Martin is leftie and a cynic and that shows, and influence his chances to finish.

  • @ruanialuvizotto2521
    @ruanialuvizotto2521 Рік тому +17

    He will never finish ASOIAF simply because of the hype. I think he believes that no end will be good enough for the fans. He will not be able to access all the plots he left open. It's just too big. I don't hold hope anymore 😢

    • @rainy7106
      @rainy7106 Рік тому +4

      Tbf, look how his fans act. I would be terrifying to drop anything too if I knew I was throwing my creation to the wolves. Just think about how bad faith this video is, I would be spooked to drop off my video to some idiot who tried to compare my writing to Tolkien by using scenes from adaptations that didn’t even use my material.

    • @stevem2323
      @stevem2323 Місяць тому

      ​@@rainy7106Bad faith? Dude is writing a book for a 10 years, are you kidding me? He deserves some criticism too. Also, he has has far off Tolkien in every regard.

  • @zerospacer
    @zerospacer Рік тому +10

    Reminder that it was only later when his publisher requested a sequel to The Hobbit and rejected Tolkien's submission (The Silmarillion) that he relented and sat down to write The Lord Of The Rings, an attempt at an epic adventure story with more hobbits.

  • @DeAngryDan
    @DeAngryDan Рік тому +17

    As a man who read a game of thrones when I was sixteen it's refreshing to finally hear a young person realise that this isn't happening, also yes he's no Tolkien,oh and I'm now Forty three and still no sixth book.

    • @olofacosta3192
      @olofacosta3192 Рік тому

      Wow lol

    • @thorr18BEM
      @thorr18BEM 9 місяців тому

      I was also 16 when the first book was published and I felt it was the best thing I'd ever read. I remember a time I was wondering if GRRM would live long enough to finish the series but I stopped that. Now I figure I won't live long enough to see the end of the series.

  • @Spongebrain97
    @Spongebrain97 Рік тому +56

    Dude this video is the slap in the face I needed. I write for fun on the side while in college and obviously that takes priority but a flaw I have that you pointed out about George is being undisciplined. Specifically writing when the mood hits me and not sticking to a specific word count

    • @pancakesean6888
      @pancakesean6888  Рік тому +13

      I love this comment! Happy to help other writers! Copying and pasting some advice I gave to someone else below:
      Two things to keep in mind with writing:
      1. It takes 21 days to develop a habit and 66 to get it embedded in your routine to the extent that not doing it makes you feel uncomfortable. If you want to write daily the first 21 days are the hardest, but once you hit that 66 day mark you will actually feel off when you don't write.
      2. Good books aren't written, they're edited. I've walked away from my 1000 words before thinking "Wow that's total shit." However you can't edit blank paper. Writing total garbage that you can then edit is better than not writing at all.
      You can do it!!

    • @legrandliseurtri7495
      @legrandliseurtri7495 Рік тому +3

      @@pancakesean6888 Those numbers seem to fit. During the Christmas vacation, I tried increasing my word count per day by a lot(600-700 to 1300-1500). It was really really difficult during the first few weeks of doing this. Then, when college started again, I lowered my word count to 1000-1100. It was surprisingly easy to maintain. When I finished my first draft three weeks ago, I decided to not look at my writing project for a week.
      And I didn't...but it felt so wrong and so uncomfortable to not be writing anymore that I wrote a random short story in that week lol.

    • @pancakesean6888
      @pancakesean6888  Рік тому +3

      @@legrandliseurtri7495 It's funny you say that because after making this video a took a break from writing for five days in a row which was my first break longer than the odd day in three years and it felt awful! I was going to take a week since I just hit a milestone in my book I'm writing and made this video but I was pulled back in.
      Congrats on finishing your first draft! That's a HUGE achievement!!

    • @Spongebrain97
      @Spongebrain97 Рік тому +1

      @Pancake Sean I gotta ask, do you have any tips on how to make character dialogue feel natural with how it flows? I think Im getting better in terms of letting the character's personality seep into how they talk and what they say but I want it to sound like a real conversation you'd hear people have.
      My biggest fear is some of the conversations sounding wooden. The last thing I want is for two characters talking to sound like they are from the Star Wars prequels where there is little banter, they only talk about their current goal, and comes off as robotic.

    • @pancakesean6888
      @pancakesean6888  Рік тому +2

      @@Spongebrain97 It's funny one of the things I hate about the book I published is the dialogue. It's total rubbish.
      The best thing I can say is to just keep writing. In my writing now my dialogue is a lot more natural and that comes from experience as well as reading more books and watching more quality movies. After awhile you'll find dialogue comes natural.
      But don't let your fear of bad dialogue stop you from writing. It's better to write some shit dialogue and go back to make it sound better than to write nothing at all.

  • @ceroscentauri7045
    @ceroscentauri7045 Рік тому +6

    Harlan Ellison had a similar approach I've found useful: 1,000 words a day, no more, no less.
    If you are in the middle of writing something once you hit, say, word 3,000 and you haven't finished the sentence as an example you are still 'locked in' so to speak. So even if you take your break for the day without finishing the sentence, paragraph, chapter, etc. you will still be thinking about where to go next. Keeps your mind active. I found in the past if you commit to finishing a work, say a short story, or a chapter or paragraph first and end off the day there, its the equivalent of reaching the end of the race, mentally. You've made it to your short-term destination, sure, but the finality of the completion creates an unnecessary roadblock in your mind. Better to end a day's work in the middle of something to keep the mind attentive, without being overstressed from the unknowns that linger beyond the current finish line.

    • @gaozhi2007
      @gaozhi2007 Рік тому +1

      Interesting. Where did he say that? I have a lot of his books.

    • @ceroscentauri7045
      @ceroscentauri7045 Рік тому +1

      @@gaozhi2007 It should be under his UA-cam channel, from one of his Harlan Ellisons Watching episodes on Sci-Fi. It was a serialized thing where he would give his two-cents on topics.

  • @NIL0S
    @NIL0S 8 місяців тому +13

    Gardeners actually plan their work quite meticolously. Except if they are sunday gardeners. Sunday gardeners can take all day and just sit there smelling the roses. So yeah, Tolkien is a garden architect, Martin is a sunday gardener 😂

    • @Gandalf-The-Green
      @Gandalf-The-Green 3 місяці тому +1

      Best comment here, so true. Im am a sunday architect btw, they also exist. I can look all day at the plans of my castle and fine tune stuff, or compare my plans to existing castles out there, and never lay a single brick.

  • @UAPReportingCenter
    @UAPReportingCenter Рік тому +7

    I finished Dance a week after it came out and been waiting ever since. Brutal.

  • @Jerthanis
    @Jerthanis 9 місяців тому +3

    I did Nanowrimo one year, and did the 1666 words every single day without exception that it takes to squeak out the 50,000 words, finished one day early and I have never written anything as good since. Sometimes when I get down about my writing since, I'll go read one of the later chapters of that book to remind myself that I can write at all. It's not the planning, it's not the inspiration, it's not the ideas. It's the doing it every single day that makes good writing.

    • @pancakesean6888
      @pancakesean6888  9 місяців тому +2

      Awesome! That's fantastic!! One thing I've been thinking about lately is how I don't think I really believe in writers block. I simply don't think it's a thing. I've been doing one thousand words a day for a few years now and there are days where I write my thousand and think "Wow that was shit," but ultimately you can make something brilliant in the edit. Even if your daily writing isn't up to your standards it's far better than nothing and through editing you can make it great.
      Proud of you for your writing, keep it up!

  • @adamprieto121
    @adamprieto121 8 місяців тому +4

    This was a great video and really convinced me that the problem is with George and not the series. As a follow up, could you also do of Patrick Rothfuss/ Kingkiller Chronicle?

    • @pancakesean6888
      @pancakesean6888  8 місяців тому +3

      I think it's a similar story with Rothfuss. The thing that gets me is his series is a trilogy and I feel like the lore behind it isn't as deep as some others so I really don't know why it's taking so long. It's been 12 years and if Doors of Stone will be 1000 pages long that's about 1/4 of a page a day to get him there.

  • @juanarango4307
    @juanarango4307 3 місяці тому +4

    I think he is overwhelmed. Every time he ends a plotline, he opens a dozen new ones.

  • @JotaP1n
    @JotaP1n Рік тому +7

    I think the same, but it is not 100% lazyness or because now he is rich or whatever, he wrote Fire and Blood not long ago. It’s something deeper, I truly believe he has stopped enjoying telling ASOIAF story. He has no idea how to wrap the whole thing with the quality he wants. And makes sense if you look at Martin’s work, he is really good at little stories in where you can explore a lot of ideas, characters, etc, but after that brainstorming you need to put down all that and follow a strategy or plan to follow and finish, otherwise you are going to walk in circles if the story becomes too big. And this is the scenario. Probably he is not into his own ideas or paths to follow and he’s been trapped into a creative dead end in where the guy is clearly uncomfortable. Probably at this point he should ask for help, I mean from another writers, but I guess his ego is stronger than his commitment with the story.

    • @terrylandess6072
      @terrylandess6072 Рік тому +1

      I feel like the books and TV shows have deviated so much from the original concepts (and each other) due to 'success' which allows 'fan interference' in both to the point of no return.

    • @JotaP1n
      @JotaP1n Рік тому +2

      @@terrylandess6072 to bee honest the last 2 books, specially the last one was not so good.

  • @GreenKnight2001
    @GreenKnight2001 3 місяці тому +3

    Dance of Dragon is what proves he'll never finish: lots of pages, no closer to a conclusion. Man has NO IDEA how to finish.

  • @AscendantStoic
    @AscendantStoic 9 місяців тому +2

    To some extent you are right, that's why Martin needs a more organized co-writer (someone who is more of an architect style writer) or a team of assistants to help him warp up the book, there is no shame in that whatsoever, they only thing that would stop him from doing that is ego.

  • @Mini-Toast_
    @Mini-Toast_ Рік тому +7

    I always believed that the manuscript was always completed. I mean he knows how it's going to end, considering he told the showrunners. I always thought his hesitation for conclusion came from the series getting far too famous. Now there is so much anticipation for a series that wasn't trying to be a fantasy epic. It was a story trying to subvert many fantasy tropes. He would have to suffer a lot of criticism and disappointment from long time fans if the ending isn't everything it was hyped up to be. If he has the ending mapped out, why not end the series? I believe the hype has killed his desire to deliver the ending. And if the final book is published, it will be when he is no longer with us.
    Edit: And truth be told, I can't compare ASOIAF to other stories written by the likes of King, this story has become WAY too convoluted with all the different plot threads and characters. Maybe he wants to masterfully finish all their stories, but considering how many perspectives he's written the story from, he probably bitten off more than he can chew.

  • @CrazyHorse2505
    @CrazyHorse2505 5 місяців тому +2

    I genuinly enjoyed your video. I was here to have fun and I came out with a lot of motivation to continue my novel. Thx dude ;) continue what you're doing

  • @sanseverything900
    @sanseverything900 Рік тому +5

    GRRM should just feed ChatGPT all his notes and have it write out the rest of the series for him.

  • @sodapop7520
    @sodapop7520 Рік тому +8

    your videos are so well put together for such a small channel. Really glad to be here to watch your channel grow

  • @leeboy26
    @leeboy26 Рік тому +7

    He's like a Santa that never deliveries.

  • @hex_gekko29568
    @hex_gekko29568 Рік тому +20

    I think that the end of the show was actually pretty close to what he had planned for the books and he knows it is going to suck. He would rather have his publisher finish it when he dies so they can take the blame.

    • @appropriate-channelname3049
      @appropriate-channelname3049 Рік тому +8

      I think the end of the show could work. It just has to be set up better and could have used more episodes to flesh everything out properly. DnD rushed the shows end. George can write as much as he wants in those last two books. He just needs to make sure to limit new characters and plot lines to a minimum,

    • @hex_gekko29568
      @hex_gekko29568 Рік тому +1

      @@appropriate-channelname3049 I really hope Bran being king in the end was D&Ds idea and not George's lol

    • @maestercraig3990
      @maestercraig3990 Рік тому

      @@hex_gekko29568 - Considering his series is about the redundant and tragic nature of mankind, the three eyed raven seems fitting. I dont expect to see Dany, nor Jon on the throne. Maybe in a traditional fantasy, but this is grimdark fantasy here. As far as we know, Bran will be what is needed after the clash of kings has ended.

    • @hex_gekko29568
      @hex_gekko29568 Рік тому

      @@maestercraig3990 Bran becoming king is retarded and those themes don't breed good stories hence why season 8 sucked.

  • @someirishguy1662
    @someirishguy1662 Рік тому +5

    I think it would be beneficial for EVERYONE if he brought on a ghost writer or understudy to take on the project.
    Youre right about Discipline = Talent, never seen it that way before!

  • @cendiacocri
    @cendiacocri Рік тому +3

    Great work your 're doing here!
    Some will understand your sarcasm, some won't. You just keep being real! It's lovely!

  • @mohammedsdafiah4132
    @mohammedsdafiah4132 Рік тому +9

    I also feel the shows ending did not help. All that negativity will get to you and he might be changing some plot lines from how the executed them in the show

  • @jonthorn2003
    @jonthorn2003 Рік тому +9

    8:16 Tolkien created the language and the lore of the Legendarium before he even had the idea for the hobbit, and then had the idea of connecting the hobbit to his previously created mythology. Just wanted to point that one out for those who are interested.

    • @NicoleSams
      @NicoleSams 9 місяців тому +1

      I fucking love the ancient, prolific lore of the Silmarillion.

  • @AnthonyAvon
    @AnthonyAvon Рік тому +13

    As an artist for a living I can only add that the delay on Winds has no excuse. I know what blocks and burnouts are, and they've never stopped me. And the rare days when I don't paint at all are absolutely necessary breaks or I'm just hard at work on something else. And is it ego that keeps him from collaborating with people to figure out the basics of the plot? So much art and entertainment benefits from team work.

    • @rainy7106
      @rainy7106 Рік тому +3

      No offense but there’s no way you truly get George’s position. You aren’t a world renowned artist who has a massive audience waiting on the edges of their seat for their next work, you are not attempting to finish off the works that will end up being your primary legacy and what remember you for.
      You cannot seriously pretend to know the pressure that would put on a man, specifically a man rearing the end of his life who is consumed by matters of legacy.
      That’s fine you’re not in that position but please stop pretending you know what position he’s in because you’re an “artist.”

    • @AnthonyAvon
      @AnthonyAvon Рік тому +2

      @@rainy7106 Being an artist, at least for me, means being under constant pressure to meet expectations. He is fully capable of realizing that he has a problem, if he does, and there are options to solve that. I had therapy after panic attacks caused by work, and I had that issue taken care of.
      So, stop pretending to know what I know?

    • @legrandliseurtri7495
      @legrandliseurtri7495 Рік тому +2

      @@rainy7106 But OP also isn't a millionaire who has infinite free time...

    • @rainy7106
      @rainy7106 Рік тому +2

      @@AnthonyAvon you need to stop pretending you know more than you know. Again, your panic attack is not anywhere near the same as a man facing his legacy. Seeing as you’re not even of a mature age, it’s literally impossible for you to see things from his perspective.
      It’s basic psychology lol

    • @rainy7106
      @rainy7106 Рік тому

      @@legrandliseurtri7495 that has almost nothing to do with it, why you thought it did, I have no clue.

  • @randomnerdery6511
    @randomnerdery6511 8 місяців тому +2

    Pretty sure GRRM has gone on record saying he will NOT do as Robert Jordan did, and will not name a proxy to finish ASoI&F if [when] he dies prior to finishing it, thereby leaving it unfinished.

  • @frankvandorp2059
    @frankvandorp2059 8 місяців тому +4

    I remember as a child having a REALLY hard time having to wait for a full year every time, for the next Harry Potter book.
    JK Rowling wrote her entire Harry Potter series in 11 years. George RR Martin hasn't written a single book in 13.

  • @TheMrOkamiden
    @TheMrOkamiden 8 місяців тому +2

    I am working on my own book. Been writing on it since 2018. Only now reaching the end. While I have been working on it, I have gone through 2 years long writer's block, gone through 5 jobs, and suffered a health crisis. But when I have written, I have gone straight from work to the book. And I usually end up writing about 2 to 3K words a day. My chapters are usually 10K. But because I work, even at half, I don't have the time, or the energy to write every day, the health crisis was a part of that. That and I don't want to lose what connections I have outside of my book. But every day I can write, I write. No matter if it is 1 hour to 3 hours, to 6 or 7 hours. It's gotten me this far. The endgame of my first book.

    • @pancakesean6888
      @pancakesean6888  8 місяців тому +2

      Congrats! It's a fantastic feeling to get there, and yeah it's impossible to write every day. I hold myself to 6 days a week. I can usually hit 7 but sometimes my health takes me out for a day or I literally don't have a free moment.

    • @TheMrOkamiden
      @TheMrOkamiden 8 місяців тому +1

      @@pancakesean6888 My schedule is usually 4 days a week. 3 after work. Then a whole day. One day, I don't have time for writing after work as I do grocery shopping and other such necessities. Saturdays are my social day. And Sundays are for planning the next chapter.

  • @gustavorocu
    @gustavorocu Рік тому +10

    There is only one logical explanation. George RR Martin is not the ASOIAF author. He meets the actual author when he writes the first three books. Recognizing the saga's quality, he kidnaps the author, traps him in a basement, and makes him write two more books. At some point, the author revolts against Martin who has to kill him. Now he cannot end the saga.

  • @macflod
    @macflod Місяць тому +1

    I did hear some one say- the golden rule to writing is- you have to write. Sit down, no distraction write.

  • @ThatGuy-mt7hq
    @ThatGuy-mt7hq Рік тому +31

    Finally somebody said it. George is at his best with short fiction.

  • @Happyland1971
    @Happyland1971 3 місяці тому +2

    I was born in 2011. George R. R. Martin has been writing WoW for my entire life time.

  • @mladens1779
    @mladens1779 Рік тому +5

    A shame you didn't mention Terry Pratchett since he wrote 2 books per year. And he didn't stop when he got diagnosed with Alzheimer's. The quality did drop a bit, but he was still pushing forward. As for GRRM's 13 years... It took James Joyce 17 years to write Finnegan's Wake. He has no excuse.

  • @jasonabc
    @jasonabc 9 місяців тому +1

    Thank you I already kind of know about GRRM and his lack of motivation and discipline but this video really reminded me that the key to success from the greatest is always continued daily hard work at your craft. Thank you for helping me realize that.

  • @KatAdVictoriam
    @KatAdVictoriam Рік тому +8

    As a writer, I can sympathize with George. I am not a plotter, but a pantser/gardener. I map out the details of the world building first but I will usually flesh out the beginning, or a few scenes, rather than know how, precisely, things will end. I have been attempting to complete a (very large) book for 5 years. I have been trying to nail the final chapters for 2 whole years. I write and/or edit every single day. Every day. No exceptions. I am incredibly disciplined. George may not have that in him. But, it's very plausible that George has an anxiety about finishing, which I can relate to. I almost don't want to wrap up this world and the characters and so I'm "indecisive" about sticking with one ending and thus, keep re-writing. Also, he expanded so incredibly, it's going to be jarring to shrink the world back down and wrap it all up. That said, I am optimistic that I'll have this book finished, and maybe even another written and published before he ever finishes this series. I stopped expecting Winds years ago.

    • @bad-people6510
      @bad-people6510 Рік тому +1

      Take a medium approach. I'll often come up with scenes before the story, yeah. It's not something I'm proud of, I consider it a bad habit. But What I'll do is figure out how to make those scenes work BEFORE putting fingers to keys. Now maybe that's what he's doing. Maybe he's having trouble with it. But he keeps claiming to actually be writing the thing.

    • @holyleech2159
      @holyleech2159 Рік тому +1

      I do not think George is undisciplined as he wrote the earlier books at a decent pace, the problem is that game of thrones became too big, to many round characters, to many plots, to many things to build up to, even the most disciplined writers will struggle to continue.

  • @Crunchy_Troll
    @Crunchy_Troll Рік тому +10

    Honestly I feel that George is coasting on the success of GOT
    And buying time so he can not finish the series

    • @spencers4121
      @spencers4121 Рік тому

      He never finishes his series, was never going to happen even before the success.

  • @Mrryn
    @Mrryn Рік тому +3

    Tbh adding on to the show perspective and a bit of my own hot take, it's possible that there were baseline elements in the show (post Dance with Dragons material) that are planned to be the same in the books but now with how Season 8 ended, it's made George feel in no rush to go through with things. He can just as easily coast on the work he has done and the success he's earned, go at his own pace, and if it gets done, it'll be done. And if not, he will have enough good faith that he won't have a legacy of losing the plot at the finish line, like the show did.
    Part of me that thinks that looks to the comment about him not having an outline for the story. Yet he was quick to assure that his ending is/will be totally different from the show...but if he just kinda writes on his whims with no outline, that doesn't exactly line up. Especially when the showrunners were iirc given specific key plot points to base the major events of the show around (like, presumably, R+L=J being a thing and that being a big reason reportedly why George signed off on D&D for the adaptation - by answering correctly who Jon Snow's mother is when George asked).
    So either George does have an outline (even if very basic) and that was what the showrunners had to go off of after book material ran dry but then Season 8 was panned and now he's backtracking and stalling...or he really does have no outline, the showrunners were left in the dark, and George actually has no idea where his story and plot points are even going. Both of which don't bode well for very different reasons and could contribute to the constant stalled writings/releases of further books.

  • @destroctiveblade843
    @destroctiveblade843 Рік тому +2

    if you want to see a writer who's masterful in his planning that would be oda. He already knew how everything should end up and planned the major events. the he adds what he thinks would serve that arc as he goes along.

  • @sergiovela7686
    @sergiovela7686 Рік тому +5

    I just need TWOW. I've made my peace with A dream of spring never coming out

    • @Mrryn
      @Mrryn Рік тому +2

      The Winds of Winter big twist: The Others bring The Wall down, they win, everyone dies, world ends.
      A Dream of Spring is the title because that's all it - spring for Westeros, the book for us - will ever be: just a dream of what could have been.

  • @9148H2
    @9148H2 Рік тому +2

    I started writing my own fantasy stories, and am committed to having them released when I'm done with the final drafts. I have learned two things from George's Mistakes that every Author should take seriously. One, is never sell the film rights of your work to Hollywood or you'll end up regretting it. And two, never sell the film rights of your work if they are not completed. George doesn't have it in him anymore. He's become lost in his own trappings and he has given up. He just doesn't want to finish it, and that's a shame because the books are something special. If he just wants to do nothing about the story and is getting older and unhealthier year by year then he should write out an outline, and give the task to someone else who knows him very well and finish it for him. Kind of like with Robert Jordan with Branden Sanderson.

  • @2011szaman
    @2011szaman Рік тому +10

    This is my theory- while D&D and George had a great start to the show, they very quickly started to have conflicts on various things, primarily the plotlines. The more George wanted to stick to the original book plots, D&D started to focus on other less important character development. For example, George was very keen on Lady Stoneheart storyline which D&D rejected and they started focusing on characters like Bron and others. They skipped many major plotlines that could have been amazing. George got really pissed off but didn't let it known to public. He started to distance himself from the tv show more and more. I think that's when he decided to not provide them with any new material and (secretary) swore to not publish another book as long as the show is on. As suspected, the show ran out of original materials and totally bombed! While the writing was terrible, they kind of showed roughly how George wanted to end the story but he (obviously) would have made everything so much better! I think seeing how terribly the last two seasons, especially season 8 bombed George was struggling to justify his original ending and also in the process probably lost interest!

  • @anniecoxdraws
    @anniecoxdraws 3 місяці тому

    Came from the Sims video and subscribed! Your voice, humor, and editing style scratches my early UA-cam nerd brain. Your writing background shows!

    • @pancakesean6888
      @pancakesean6888  3 місяці тому +1

      Appreciate ya! Also as someone who has 0 artistic ability anyone who can draw is a god in my book. Great art!

  • @robertsmiley2207
    @robertsmiley2207 Рік тому +4

    He should let other writers ✍️ finish the stories with him overlooking the work so they don't stray away from his original vision

    • @johno1544
      @johno1544 Рік тому +1

      I agree that isnt unprecedented either especially when a author is in his mid 70s

  • @nightwishfan1991
    @nightwishfan1991 3 місяці тому +2

    My theory has always been that Martin screwed himself in the later books. Feast of Crows and A Dance with Dragons, which was meant to be one book initially. From what I know there was suppose to be a 5 year time jump. But rather than do the time jump Martin decided to flesh it out. A decision which bit him in the ass because he had to add all of these side characters. My theory is that he knows the main story beats for the primary characters, but when it comes to the secondary characters he now has this weeded garden that has grown beyond his control. Thus he has no clue how to wrap up the tangled mess of storylines he has now trapped himself in.

  • @macejaso
    @macejaso Рік тому +15

    This is why I am a die-hard for Wheel of Time. The man put out a book on time every three years and only missed a deadline cause he died! Never felt the quality dropped either!

    • @Wolltazar
      @Wolltazar Рік тому +1

      Well it could drop. consider the wheel of time series lucky to be finished by another great writer who understood the story well. I have seen the book series where it wasn’t that lucky

  • @itismydump
    @itismydump 3 місяці тому +2

    My thoughts a long time ago was he will never finish. What makes the books great is also the weakness: too many characters with detailed ancestral and story lines that interconnect to all the other characters. The only way he finishes before death is to go the way of D and D, with plot holes and all. He is more willing to meander around stories of newly created characters and connections them to what is already written. Not to mention, there has to be a fear of not having a satisfactory ending because he never dreamed this book series would be this big.

  • @paultapner2769
    @paultapner2769 Рік тому +3

    He can easily finish it.
    'Ned woke with a start. He looked around. He was in bed. In Winterfell at home.
    Ned? Cat asked. What's wrong my love?
    Cat, I just had the most terrible dream, Ned replied. You know, you're right. I'll tell Robert I can't be his Hand after all.
    Oh Ned! Cat cried.
    The two embraced.
    Then the White Walkers attacked the Castle. Everyone died.
    One moment later, the Red Comet crashed to Earth, and all of Westeros was destroyed.
    The end.'
    Some things I have accepted will never finish. Comics like All Star Batman and Robin. Or Kevin Smith's Batman trilogy. I've been waiting since 1993 for book five of David Gerrold's science fiction series War Against the Chtorr. I didn't read the Kingkiller chronicles till 2013-2015.I have no expectations on Door of Stone. But I just can't let go of Winds of Winter. Probably because it's so high profile. I accept that I am most likely wasting my time though.

  • @benhramiak8781
    @benhramiak8781 6 місяців тому +1

    i come back to this every so often to motivate myself.

  • @thalmoragent9344
    @thalmoragent9344 Рік тому +3

    Honestly, sounds like he just needs like, a solid co-writer to help him out, tbh.

  • @hkehk7811
    @hkehk7811 Рік тому +1

    man I died laughing when u put ur book up there. I'm about to do the same so I'm ready to join the club. Love the vids

  • @Derekivery
    @Derekivery Рік тому +15

    George is to blame for the later seasons. It is a fact that D&D created the later seasons based on notes George gave them. So for better or worse, the later seasons of GoT are actually the closest we have to proof of how George wanted to finish the series.
    For all we know it was George's intention for Dany to drink starbucks at winter fell, anyone who wants to argue I'm wrong, please point to the page in George's completed book that says otherwise.
    George saw what D&D did to his work, and rather than rush to finish the book so people know he did have an idea on how to end it, he just said "meh whatever"

    • @redtexan7053
      @redtexan7053 Рік тому +4

      I’d agree, but for different reasons. The fact is that D&D were *great* at adapting George’s work. They were still the guys in charge for Seasons 1-4, and we all love those. The fact is that they were not hired to create their own narrative, and it shouldn’t have come to the point where they were in the first place.

    • @Derekivery
      @Derekivery Рік тому +6

      @@redtexan7053 that is a 100% valid point. We can all shit on D&D's work on the later seasons... but they did an outstanding job adapting George's work... ADAPTING! That's what they signed up for, that's what they were hired to do. George promised them (and the world) to have stuff done before season 4. Season 5 and 6 was mostly the show doing nothing waiting for Georgie, then season 7 and 8 they rush to an end cause it was clear George would never finish. D&D are not blameless, they made some bad choices, but George is as responsible if not more responsible for the dumpster fire that was the last few seasons.

    • @rickpgriffin
      @rickpgriffin 8 місяців тому +1

      From the consensus I've seen, even if you like... give the showrunners the benefit of the doubt, squint your eyes, tilt your head, and try to see what they were TRYING to go for if they had the room to do it... it's not even a good IDEA for the ending. Maybe GRRM could have written it more intricately rather than the blunt hammer to the face we got, but it's been said many times: even with all the "anyone can die" attitude the story tries to impart, there's still aspects of the story that should be inviolate if you want ANY chance of it working out. The mere fact that Jon Snow's parentage and lineage is brought up so much means it's building to SOMETHING. In individual scenes, sure you can build up to a shocking swerve that still fulfills narrative promises if not in the expected way, but over a whole story? It gets much, much harder to twist out of the way of the "expected" result. There's too much narrative momentum. You need a way to make the audience not feel like they wasted their time on a shaggy dog story when you're already deep into the fifth hour.

    • @magikman481
      @magikman481 7 місяців тому

      @@Derekivery they also did a bit more than adapting in the first 4 seasons. there are show only scenes that are very good in their own right. an example being littlefinger's "chaos is a ladder" speech, entirely made be D&D

    • @stevem2323
      @stevem2323 Місяць тому

      ​@@redtexan7053i love season 6 too, very much so.

  • @lagadema16
    @lagadema16 Рік тому +1

    4:34 I'm a writer too, and it is a very common thing to not do any outline. It keeps writer being interested in his own book all the way along writing. It is more fun. And I write science-fiction and fantasy too, so it CAN be done this way.

  • @victuss1413
    @victuss1413 Місяць тому +4

    He is a nihilist who expressed his beliefs in a novel. The problem is, since there is no plan, purpose, creator of the soiaf world in canon and that its all meaningless, there is literally no point to finish.

    • @stevem2323
      @stevem2323 Місяць тому

      Cynic and leftie who has no faith in humans, religion or anything else, he has ideology to finish it.

    • @bearforfun
      @bearforfun 10 днів тому

      He is not lol

  • @collagefrolic
    @collagefrolic 3 місяці тому

    Couldn't agree more and thanx for that 1991 grrm!
    George was a working writer. Slogging it out in Hollywood, writing for tv, waiting for the big one. He isn't hungry anymore.

  • @reelman243
    @reelman243 Рік тому +3

    My thoughts on this are that since the TV series actually put an ending on it, he just mentally considers it already finished, and so doesn't feel the need to write more. Plus , all the TV projects take up a LOT of time away from the job.

    • @terrylandess6072
      @terrylandess6072 Рік тому

      Imagine having access to the largest 'attention buffet' in your life.

  • @BrianRosborough
    @BrianRosborough 8 місяців тому +1

    This might be the third time I’ve watched this video. Pancake Sean, I hope you see this comment just so you have some affirmation today that I think you’re freakin brilliant brother. You made me laugh out loud a few times this video, and on the whole your take is spot on. Keep on keepin on brother, your channel is gonna blow up soon enough! God bless mate

  • @vasilijvasiljevic1781
    @vasilijvasiljevic1781 Рік тому +10

    I'm glad that Mr. Plinkett inspired other content creators to pursue this type of humor 🙂
    I LOVE IT! 😊

    • @ryanm.6005
      @ryanm.6005 Рік тому +1

      He's a hack. Not even doing 3D printed coke sponsored by Disney.

  • @photoboyjet
    @photoboyjet Рік тому +1

    I feel you. Fans of David Gerrold's, "The War Against the Chtorr" series have been waiting since 1993 for the last two novels.

  • @grantcole8898
    @grantcole8898 Рік тому +4

    I very recently started to watch the show and it's pretty good! I am an avid reader, so i definitely want to check out the books, but i am hesitant to add yet another unfinished series to my brain. Too many cliff hangers keep me lying awake at night.

    • @askechad7478
      @askechad7478 Рік тому +11

      Do yourself a favour and read the books before you watch the show

    • @Dan-vo7vc
      @Dan-vo7vc Рік тому +3

      If you don't like cliffhangers you should avoid both, tbh. There are entire characters and narratives that just... dangle. Forgotten.

    • @grantcole8898
      @grantcole8898 Рік тому

      @Askechad i'm a heavy binge watcher, so i'm halfway through season 6 already

    • @spencers4121
      @spencers4121 Рік тому

      The show is really good, the last season is a let down. And was clearly rushed, but even then if they had another season to have stretched it out. Would have had the same ending but just felt better, with more time / story in it.

  • @vincentcleaver1925
    @vincentcleaver1925 Рік тому +2

    A gardener has a plan, they just are willing to change their minds when they need to. They build up the soil, they rotate crops, and they are quite willing and able to change the plan, yank the plants out and yeet them into the compost bin.
    But.
    They.
    Had.
    A.
    Plan

  • @ryanratchford2530
    @ryanratchford2530 Рік тому +23

    I think you’re right about the discipline.
    But very wrong about having to outline.
    George is a pantser (gardener) which is just like Stephen King.
    It’s a popular writing method.
    But George actually has had a rough plan of where the series is going (check his letter to his publisher) & all the information he told D&D.
    The reason George isn’t finish is just because he isn’t writing or working. Probably a lazy thing.
    Has nothing to do with outlining vs pantsing.

    • @DarthNicky
      @DarthNicky Рік тому +8

      Might not even be laziness. He has just taken on way too many projects that he reasonably could get done all at once, especially with the way he writes. I imagine it’s also pretty intimidating to try and bring one of the most successful book series ever to a satisfying conclusion, which certainly isn’t helping.

    • @phillipmargrave
      @phillipmargrave Рік тому +5

      I think he’s lost his fire, his passion for the story.

    • @sbeaber
      @sbeaber Рік тому +3

      Do you know any good writers that are pantsers outside of King? King has interesting story ideas (like a lot of writers) but the books I've read of his always seem like King lost interest halfway or 3/4ths of the way it and end up being poor novels in my opinion. Maybe Martin is trying to avoid putting a poopy story on paper but good ideas won't come to him?
      Cheers

    • @spencers4121
      @spencers4121 Рік тому +1

      @@phillipmargrave If not mistaken he's never finished any of his series, pretty sure he gets tired / burned out on stuff.

    • @rayman9983
      @rayman9983 Рік тому

      I hope your wrong about the outline he gave HBO. If the white walkers get beat so easily I will be more than upset. Winter is coming, but it will be over quickly.

  • @seangreen5876
    @seangreen5876 9 місяців тому +1

    May not have millions of subs. But you got my axe. You are +1

  • @bry8636
    @bry8636 7 місяців тому +3

    Tired of the trope ‘Martin owes us nothing’
    When you pick up the 1st book in a series, there is the very reasonable presumption that the author is going to finish that series. Or at a minimum do their best to do so.
    I’d call it an unwritten contract between the reader and the author.
    I’m buying this based on the supposition it will one day be completed.
    Not only does Martin owe it to his readers, he owes it to his profession.
    Because if this is now the rule, that the author has no obligation to finish the series, why would I ever pick up another 1st volume again given the author can just decide not to finish at any point?
    So Martin owes it to his fans and to his profession in general to do his level best to finish the series.
    But he won’t. We will see WoW at some point.
    But DoS?
    Dream on.

  • @pacoramon9468
    @pacoramon9468 4 дні тому +1

    0:49 How can you miss that by over 10 years?

  • @liftedmarco4976
    @liftedmarco4976 Рік тому +10

    Honestly it’s beyond impressive how good this story is considering the lack of planning. In terms of thematic writing I think it’s the goat of fantasy. Also tbf Tolkien came up with a language and then wrote a world for the language not the other way around.

  • @quikinn527
    @quikinn527 Рік тому

    This my first time seeing one of your videos. I was already having a good time, but then I got to 12:00 or so and got hit with the random Balamb Garden music. You have earned my follow, sir.

  • @astrinymris9953
    @astrinymris9953 Рік тому +4

    Also, as the daughter of an actual gardener, I know that gardeners actually do quite a lot of planning before planting anything. You don't just throw seeds on the ground and see what happens. Not hatin', just sayin'.