What? Fast 308 Winchester Loads?
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- Опубліковано 6 жов 2021
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A fast 308 - whoever needed that? What started out as a search for a low-recoil hunting load ended up as a flat shooting deer load, with great accuracy and high velocity. In this video, we get into it!
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![[Don't Try This] Pushing the 308 Win to 300 Win Mag (Bat Machine, Alpha Munitions)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/uXkmcpk7Brc/mqdefault.jpg)
I hate the 308.
It made me get into reloading, One rugged hole with my first 3 shots.
That was sooo many dollars ago.
I hear ya:)
$2.50/rnd or match ammo... Reloading at less then $1/rnd. We just won't discuss the cost of equipment where my Sig Other might read this and well... kill me. I have heard that "Some" reloaders have quite the investment in... say 9-10 various presses, and say 30+ different calibers they reload for.
@@Thomasr435 When we die what if our wives sold our guns for the price which we claimed they cost.
@@Thomasr435 I look at it this way, "When your factory supplier fails to deliver, become your own factory." My last Fiocci bad spec .308 proved it to me. I think they mis-packed 7.62.
@@Greyzonecompliant In my case she knows since she looks at Gunbroker too. 🤠
I would love to see video around light/fast vs heavy/slower 308 gel tests.
ua-cam.com/video/SAUp2bBE4Eg/v-deo.html
Here it is in .308
Me too though my application would be 7.62x54R.
@@mkshffr4936 8mm .312 not the same weight class 30-6 7.9mm.309 would be more Worthy of an competitor.
did they ever make that video? if so please link it if possible. thanks
After sighting in at 60 feet, I could easily cover 5 shots with a nickel ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxQt2uORDRfFOVSrO4idv4B90ThT6EOnEL ! Truly a pleasure to shoot! Scope was easy to adjust for eye relief. Only problem the varmints must have seen it delivered lol!Update: So impressed with shot groups at 30 yards I purchased a Hammers 3×9 with adjustable Objective scope! Now a true nail driver!
I shoot the 130gr TTSX out of my 308 for deer. It's laser beam flat and extremely lethal. Also, it doesn't scatter lead throughout your venison. Accuracy is excellent, and at over 3100 fps it absolutely devastates game. The solid copper will perform at extreme velocities with no worries about jacket separation. They always exit as well, leaving a good blood trail if you do have to track. I shoot through both shoulders if possible, and generally don't have to track at all.
This is an unbeatable load in 308 for hunting. I also use this load.
App 25 years ago I hunted roe deer with a M14 (Win - production rifle and in Europe..) with 5 round mag loaded with 125 NBT@3100fps. With the 20 round mags I was ready for the Russians to cross the border.
@@agskytter8977 I've been really impressed with that bullet. I was a bit concerned about sectional density, but I've discovered Barnes bullets don't care about it. I really like those bullets.
When the 130gr tsx first came out I had some issues with it. Shooting 10 shot groups, I'd get 9 inside of an inch and 1 bullet 4-5" right and up nearly every group at 100 yards. The 'flyer' always ended up in about the same spot, relative to the group.
Ended up with a case of 1,000 of the newer (new packaging, plastic box) at an auction. I don't know what changed from the original (ogive? Quality control?), but this lot has been amazing. I've got maybe 15 coyotes with them at 3,100fps. I'll probably end up taking a deer with them this fall.
It's worth taking a look at bullets that didn't work for you again after a few years. I guess the mfg can work out some of the early production kinks. I need to give the Honady gmx bullets another chance I guess. Those really sucked when they first came out...
@@jonathonschram3429 I think the Barnes bullets in general have gotten better throughout the years. I guess I never tried them before all the kinks got ironed out, because I've never had any issues I can remember. They're all I use for hunting anymore, mostly because they're lead free, but they're also extremely lethal if loaded correctly. You just have to throw all the old thinking out the window. Sectional density and that kind of thing just don't matter with these as they are going to penetrate no matter what. In my experience, you can take 20 or 30 grains off your old lead bullet load and get the same or better penetration with Barnes. I used to love a 180 ballistic tip for my 300wm, but I like the 150 ttsx even better. And the 130 in .308 has terrible sectional density, but it just doesn't matter because it will still go through a deer's shoulders and chest cavity every time. There's just a little learning curve with them.
Just bought 100 130tsx's and with Ramshot Tac on initial load development got about a .230" group. Not a temp stable powder but shows the accuracy potential with barnes bullets. My rifle shoot about 1.25" average with various factory loads.
Guy is fantastic, thank you for having someone who’s so qualified yet so humble and knowledgeable on the show!
Yes please, all things 308 Win are of GREAT interest to me.
All things of that case family as well, but especially the 308 Win.
@vettelover2009 I bought a used and abused Savage Axis in 270 as a build gun. The first thing I did was install a Shaw 260 Rem barrel on it. It had a 1:8 twist, was 26" long and I had a throat reamer run into it to handle high BC bullets better. What a sweetheart, the barrel and trigger work cost $300 but that 260 will give any 6.5PRC a run for it's money with the Hornady 143 ELDX bullets and 6.5 Staball powder. I seat the bullets out and add a little extra powder for just over 3000 fps across my shooting Chrony. Win ......
@vettelover2009 You got that right, sounds like an awesome rifle.
Great video! Awesome to discuss the versatility of an old workhorse rifle like that one. Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for the clarification.
I usually shoot 178 eldx bullets in my 308 but I tried the 110 sierras and you are spot on.
They shoot real flat and with less recoil.
Thanks for the great information.
Keep up the great stuff. This video kicked me off of the fence about my future gun build. Alot of info in a short period. Now im jonesing for the green machine in action with the various loads.
I have loaded the 130 barnes as well in a reduced recoil for youth whitetail deer. Works really well and I am sure you will see great results as well
I did the same with a 308 for my 10 year old, 44 gr of IMR 4064 with a 125 gr Sierra pro - hunter. Was lookin for a low recoiling round that could get him into shooting centerfire and hunting. I don't have a chronograph, but it is listed around 2900 fps in the manual. Hammers game.
I did this with my mosin nagant sporter a few years back. It's a very nicely done rifle. Used .310 123gr vmax with BLC-2 powder & got 3400fps. Actually used hornady .310 123gr interlock soft points with same powder & it put holes through our ar500 3/8 steel targets at 100yrds.
I've used this same combo on a deer, 125bt and 48gr of Varget. Shot it from 40 yards and lost 5lbs of meat from the explosiveness, and dumped the innards of the buck out, but it also didn't run far. So as far as recoil shy shooters, the only drawback I would see is the narrower window of optimal performance. Which your guest covered probably being at that 100 to 150yd window.
Thank you for the great videos. 308 Win , 125gr nosler ballistic tip @ 3000fps. Shoots flat and accurate. I use it as a varminting load for caracal & jackal with a few warthogs also going down hard with this load. I have achieved 3225 fps (26" barrel) with faster burning powders without excessive pressure signs. Barnes ttsx 130gr should be an excelent load. I also use a155gr hornady ELd-m @2800 fps and works great!
I am loading the Barnes TTSX with 47.5 grains of Varget in Winchester cases and Winchester Large Rifle Primers for my Remington M7 with a 20" barrel . Under an inch groups at slightly over 2900 fps . Excellent penetration on coastal North Carolina whitetails .
Best show and best technical information for load development! Thx
Thanks for your service guy!
I am using a factory loading from Winchester (Deer Season XP 150gr) in a Remington 700 SPS varmint in .308. Compared to the other factory loads I tested it was significantly more accurate and the recoil is noticeably lighter. I have yet to handload anything for it so I'm sure there is room for improvement. That being said it was 1moa or better if the dummy behind the gun did his job. It nice to see guys very local to my area with such amazing content keep it up!
I’ve used the Deer Season XP in 300 BO, .308 win, 270 win, and 7mm REM Mag.. easily sub-MOA in every gun! Being apprehensive, due to the cheaper price vs other brands, I made sure and shoot enough to rule out “good days”.. man… that is the BEST, as in most consistent and accurate, factory load I’ve ever used. Federal blue box was my go-to for seeing if a rifle wanted to shoot or not. The XP is a tender bullet but it shoots amazingly well. Dropped a nice 7 pt 3 years ago with the 300 BO 150 grain version, 80 yards, broke both shoulders and found the bullet in the offside shoulder, still fairly intact. Impressive. The 140 in the 7RM is a laser beam!
Love this video as an illustration for a small frame or youth shooter. Many people just go the 243 route and then when your shooter gets older or gets use to recoil they will buy a 308 or 30 06. My way of thinking is get them one gun for everything and do reduced loads or smaller projectiles. Your recoil is a couple of lbs above a 243 and you can move up any time you want. For me a 243 is to small for Elk and Moose. If your shooter desires to move up to bigger game when they get older or more experienced they have enough rifle to get the job done.
Thanks for another great video.
I've done something similar in .30-06 with a 130 gr Barnes with fantastic results, 30 caliber rifle bullet versatility is wonderful.
Do you by chance know what the velocity was on those 130 barnes
@@sladesmith5651 I was running around 3,200 fps, around 8,000 ft w/ about 14% humidity, through a friend's chronograph in NM.
Bet you didn't know this, way back in the 30's, they were actually using 130 gr bullets in 30/06 for deer hunting an found out it was the perfect bullet for thin skinned game back then. Alot of old timers swore by this for hunting, as it dumped all of its energy into your game.
@Brian Duffee..thanks.
Thank You for all your service Guy.
Thanks! :)
I've loaded 155 Palma match bullets to very good effect for stretching a .308 out "a bit farther than normal". Powder was Varget, primers were Federal, and I'd have to go look up my data for the powder weight, because I will NOT do that from memory. Pretty reliable load, and after turning necks, and sorting brass etc. etc. I found that by simply seating the bullet twice, even with "standard" dies, and rotating the case 90 degrees between seating strokes, the runout was reduced to a very respectable .001 or less. I've used various presses, including a Dillon 550 (one round at a time), and an RCBS rock chucker ... thanks for the video!
I started my son and daughter on .308’s, not having a fondness for .243’s for large critters, the .308 got the nod. 130gr Speer hot-cot SP, then later 125 Nosler BT… loaded with H-4895… 2500-ish fps from 20” youth model Remington 700 SPS’s.. Those loads flattening deer better than I would’ve imagined. The so-called varmint bullets expanded perfectly and killed consistently. I later moved them to 150’s ahead of RL-15.. staying around 2600 fps… soft shooting and very reliable on deer. I’ve since switched my daughter, now 22, to a REM 700 SPS 22” in 7mm/08… the 120gr Nosler BT at 2700fps, (still under loaded) is absolutely amazing… and she doesn’t flinch! 😉
I have been putting off getting in to reloading now i am going to get a single press for 308 and 338 lapua..... Love the versatility of the 308...
I load those same 125gr BT's over a reduced charge of H4895 in my wife's 30-'06 (03A3). She's taken half a dozen deer with those loads, which run around 2,600fps. Recoil is about like a 243 and we keep the distance down to 200 yards or so.
The 125 Balistic tip is an awesome bullet. I've shot a lot of 125 Speer TNT's in my Garand. Another awesome bullet. Working up a load with them in my 20" 308 AR that will be just over 3,000 fps.
I used to shoot those in my Match M1 at 200, standing and sitting. Worked pretty well most days.
I use the barns 130 grain TSX in my 300 wm at 3700 fps for deer. It works very well it usually stays in one piece and exits. Most deer die instantly for a lung shot.
Excellent video! I just got into reloading, and I'm developing my process using 308 Winchester. I'm currently developing a load using Lapua brass, Fed 210M primers, Ramshot Tac, and 180 gr Berger Elite Hunter bullets. I think that bullet is an excellent candidate for ballistics gel testing.
Tac is a great powder for the 308 Winchester, 180's are great in the 308, and Berger makes a fine bullet. Perhaps I can convince Gavin to let me test that combo? :)
try IMR 4064, you wont be disappointed. It's also more temperature stable. I shoot mainly 175-180gr bullets, produces one hole groups @ 100
I'm working on a load for my Ruger American right now with the 130grn Barnes ttsx. Had very promising results first time out with 53 grains of cfe223. Federal brass, CCI 250 magnum rifle primer, trimmed to 2.008. 2.738 OAL. Had an average velocity of 3092fps. Shot a 3 shot group at .29 inches @100 yards ! Only loaded 5 at that powder weight. Used other 2 to adjust impact. Hope to try again at 200 yards, soon. Also loaded 5 at 54grains (3146 fps) but they were showing high pressure signs from the plunger/ejector on the casing.
As I was watching this I was also reading an old Speer reloading manual. Looking at the .308 Winchester it says," An experimental cartridge known as the T-64 is precisely the same thing as the cartridge known as the .308 Winchester. If the T-65 becomes the U.S. service cartridge it will become an exceedingly popular one." From a 1954 Speer handloading manual. It seems Speer was correct.
My good friend uses a 130gr Barnes TTSX bullet for deer here in Indiana and she has great success. I’ve considered giving it a try myself because most of the shots we get are 200 yards or less. Most are actually 50-100 yards. She (I think) loads with 3031 powder.
Sounds like a good friend.
Ask her to work up a deer load for your rifle.
Kick back some prime deer meat for each deer she helps you get.
Win-win, take good care of your friend ...
No luck yet with the 180ttsx in .308dd5v3..tryin varget now so we’ll see…to seat one right it makes oal2.69” instead of normal 2.80” and not sire bout the crimp grooves…don’t crimp any my .308 and never had a problem and put 5 on a 20oz lid@100 with smk’s and 178bthp hornady
Great video. Appreciate & enjoy these. I considered a load like this from my 308 for my young son to hunt deer this year. But it is so large & heavy(Rem 700 vssf 26") so I got a Ruger American Compact in 243.
But this is great encouragement for the 308 shooters.
The 243 is a great little hunting cartridge! Best of luck to you and your son on your hunt.
@@guyminer3168 Thank you. Very much appreciated. Happy hunting to you as well.
I've used the 125 Ballistic Tips and TNTs out of my 308 AR10 for Heavy Division in 3 Gun. I was looking for a lighter recoiling load for fast and up close but still accurate enough to hit the long range targets. H4895 and 8208 XBR gave me really good results out of an 18" Armalite. the same loads also worked really well out of an 18.5 ' Model 7 bolt gun. Really noticable difference in recoil from the 165 and 180 grain bullets .
Used a similar load for ages - using Hornady 125 spire point and AR 2206. in a BSA Majestic.
This shows the versatility of the beloved 308 Winchester, I’ve great hand-loads for my Savage model 10 (Law Enforcement) with Nosler 165 BT, 168 Gr SMK’s. Going to be testing the 147 Gr FMJ-BT’s as well as the 175 Gr SMK’s .
I’ve been loadin a yr for my dd5v3 and 46gr of h4350 puts the 147s n the milkjug cap size groups…I use them and 20oz caps to decide if I like one..175smk are king and I used alpha brass for some…mostly just factory brass I keep reusin..
Years ago, using the same bullet out of a .308 M14 at about the same velocity, a top load of 748 shot sub half inch for 5 shots. Loaded 100 rounds and shot a timed long range steel match. It was great to 600 yards, after that I couldn’t pick up the impacts. We did well, it was a team match. First and last time I fired that load, moved on in calibers. But it was a great experience. Some of the new ball powders with temperature insensitivity might do well and load easier.
Gracias por los buenos videos de siempre... saludos desde Argentina...
Thx for the vid, it was interesting to say the least
I’ve shot that same 125gr .308 Nosler BT and Varget in my .308 definitely cuts down the recoil! Haven’t gotten the greatest accuracy with it, but on par with other 150 and 165/8gr bullets in the .308
I used to do a load for my Tikka M55 308, 20in barrel. I used a 71gr Hornady 32cal pistol bullet run through a sizer die from .311 to .307. With a compressed load of Accurate 2200 I was getting 10 shot sub moa groups average velocity of 3980FPS. Always wished I had a longer barrel to get a more complete powder burn and higher velocity.
I run 125g sierra soft point with 40g of ar2206h. Pushing 3k. Excellent hunting load
I loaded up 150gr TTSX bullets in 300WM with IMR4350 and got 3350fps MV. Took a nice Whitetail buck with it at around 150yds. Notable was the fact that the entry and exit holes in the rib cage were the same diameter indicating that the bullet expands very rapidly. The joy of this load is the 366yd maximum point blank range for an 8” kill zone. 330yd MPBR for 6”KZ. 290yd MPBR for 4” KZ.
Now THAT is FLAT!
I don't know squat yet, but your videos are always educational and I appreciate them!
I really like this segment ..real reloader with a real load and a real gun. Not options for that kind of story out there
Thank you, thank you, thank you for listening to our feedback on testing at realistic hunting ranges.
I just started loading 125 grain Nosler Accubond for my 308 win. I'm getting very good accuracy, I'm going to try them on whitetail deer. I've shot 130 grain Winchester silver tips in my 270 win. and have taken many deer with them, so fast smaller bullets is what I'm used to.
I've been using a nearly identical load in my 20" barrelled Savage Precision Carbine for years. 49.5gr of Varget and 125gr Nosler Ballistic Tip runs 3100 fps for me and produces consistent 5/8" 5-shot groups. I've shot this little bullet out to 700 yds regularly with excellent results.
When you say excellent results out to 700 yards, are you speaking in terms of accuracy or also in terms of terminal performance on game?
I would like to see more in depth vids on this subject especially with lighter power loads in gel to judge longer distant shots!
125 grain ABs and 130 ttsx are in my brass. I did retire my Abolt after last season though; replaced with a Howa super lite after almost 40 years of faithful service. It will still go to the woods occasionally for nostalgia.
Love all your videos. Will love to buy the reloading press you showed here. Also for a 308
I load the 125 nosler with tac powder and I'm getting 2950 fps out of my 16.5" .308
And it shoots about 1/2 moa. Was very little recoil. My 9 year old daughter loves shooting that load.
Very nice, my 20'' 308 shoots the 178 eldx at 2500fps haha. But its an insanely accurate load that is perfect for under 300 yards.
Same here, I'm loading 125 Accubonds with H322. 3170 from a 20" barrel.
Tac powder is awesome! 3k with the 110 vmax out of my 16" ar10. Ruthless on pigs!
Another great video 👊🏻🇺🇸and thanks for your service.
The .308 has always been a great one
308 with a 130 TTSX is an awesome match! It will punch straight through a deer or elk. Shot placement is more important due to less expansion but at 130 grains you should be able to achieve 3100-3200 fps. My preference is to keep impact velocity above 2000 fps.
Frontline Rejects has a very good video on this bullet and it's expansion properties in 308.
I use 110g Nosler’s in my 20” Steyr Scout with H335 and they do 3050fps very accurately 👌🏻
Perfect for foxes and head shooting small game and deer at sensible ranges.
I just got the ssg04 in 308 and I just started reloading 175 SMK with H335 (my first time reloading ever) I did a load development with 38, 38.5, 39, 39.5 and 40 gn of H335. The best group was with 39gn 5 shot group 1inch @ 100 meters. Unfortunately my chronograph run out of battery and couldn’t get any velocity readings. But I’m very impressed with this rifle and that 1-12 twist Cold hammer forged barrel.
Out to 600 I love the 308 in standard factory loads. In handloads I love it just as much as the 6 or 6.5CM. I've noticed out of most factory .308's shot; the cold bore has been about 1.5-3" off from the rest of the group. I'm still convinced Nosler makes the best hunting bullet on the market.
I have loaded 125 gr. Speer Hot-Cor bullets in a .303 British for around 3000 fps (published estimate). They were accurate in a sporterized Enfield I used to own. I never shot an animal with them, but hear that they killed deer like a lightning strike with a properly placed shot.
Lots of love in here for the Barnes 130's which is what I was going to point out. The mono bullets are typically a weight class lighter for the same effect so you also get to run them a touch faster, too.
Great hunting bullets!
I had been shooting 165g Ballistic Tips. Good load, accurate. A friend gave me a box of 125’s. Wow! Cloverleaf group at 100yds! Fast! Just under 3000fps. Dropped a few mule deer with it, no problem.
I have been working up a new load for my new 308 that has 26 inch barrel with 1 in 11.25 twist 5R rifling. I ended up settling on 130 grain Barnes with average vel (ft/s) of 3245 with half inch groups at 100 yards. Overall length 2.815 with 50g of Varget.
I was looking at smaller calibers for lighter recoil, but the thing is even if you're not handloading there are SO many .308 options available that it's just as easy to find .308 loads of the same bullet weight, even compared to smaller diameter cartridges.
I hunt with the 125 gr Sierra Pro Hunter and Varget. My favorite all around load! I will have to try the Nosier some time too.
Excellent video! As a mil Sniper and Instructor I found this fantastic!
Thanks!
Had great success with the 125 BT’s to lower recoil and gain FPS on my XP-100 and being a XP …dam accurate 👍🏼
Been running a .308 with 125 grain Nosler Accubond with H4895 in my T/C Venture for quite a few years for deer now.
X2
That Accubond version should add some structural integrity to the stubby 125 gr bullet. Since you've been using it for a few years I'd expect that you have had good results?
@@guyminer3168 Drops whitetails very well!
A 30BR, a wildcat round based on the 308 but with about a .5'' shortened case, shooting around 34 grains of 4198 or VV 130 will push a 118 grain .308 bullet at very close to 3000FPS. But the kicker is that the accuracy is astonishing up to 300 yards. Custom rifles chambered in 30BR commonly shoot 100 yard groups in the 0.10" (one tenth of an inch) range and less.
Competition level barrel life is 3000+ rounds but most of us have spare barrels laying around that we can install in 15 minutes or so.
I use LE Wilson dies and an arbor press but have to "bump" the shoulder every 5th round or so. We use exclusively Lapua brass, Fed 205M and can wear out a barrel with 100 pieces of brass though the brass has to be trimmed to length now and again.
You sir, are in that rarified class of serious benchrest shooters! Thank you so much for your input! I was a competitor in NRA across-the-course matches, 600 yard prone matches (not F class, sling stabilized), and some practical/tactical matches before PRS was a thing. Neck injuries keep me from shooting prone anymore. :( I've heard of that 118 grain bullet you use... Fellow named Elzie Scott turned me on to the arbor press and Wilson dies long ago. At one point he held the championship for "Hunter Benchrest" and I am forever grateful for his mentorship.
Such a humble guy.
Hi. I has a significant projectile failure with Hdy 130g SST. Basically exploded on a deer shoulder at 120yards. It damaged and lead shot a lot of meat. I found, on special, some 110 grain Barnes TSX. 50GN of 8208 and they work a treat on Chital dear. Accurate and flat shooting out of my 16" barrelled scout at 3100fps. No meat damage to talk of and great through and through penetration. I've since tried the 110 TTSX through a 22 inch barrel for 3350 fps with great accuracy but no game shot as yet.
TL;DR - downloading the muzzle velocity to simulate long range impacts fails to account for the angular velocity at impact, which may affect expansion dynamics, and at low velocities there may be insufficient angular moment for stability in long, high BC bullets that are typically used for long distance shooting.
DISCUSSION:
Unfortunately it is not as simple as taking the same rifle and "downloading" the charges for lower velocity to emulate long range impacts. If you follow along in ballistics literature you will come across the discussion regarding stability factors, twist rate, velocity, and rotational velocity. You have two issues:
1) the rotational velocity (RPM) will be different in a bullet launched with a "fast" muzzle velocity (MV), but that has slowed at distance due to wind drag to say 1800 fps (a typical minimum 'expansion' velocity for hunting bullets) compared to a "downloaded " bullet launched at the slow MV to emulate the at-distance velocity. The reason is that the bullet's angular velocity at the muzzle given by
AV = MV * (12 [in/ft] / TR),
where AV is the angular velocity in RPS (revolutions per second), MV is the muzzle velocity in feet per second, and TR is the rifle's twist rate in inches per rotation. Because of this relationship, it is clear that the bullet's initial angular velocity is directly proportional to its muzzle velocity. What makes this a complication for this test is that the forward velocity of the bullet is degraded rapidly due to wave drag (supersonic flight), form drag, and skin friction, while the rotational velocity of the bullet is only mildly degraded from skin friction. Therefore, even at distance, the angular velocity of the bullet stays close to its muzzle angular velocity. Hence, in the experiment of "simulating distance via low MV" will produce a bullet that is at different angular velocity at impact than that of the true long distance bullet. Lower angular velocity means that the forces contributing to expansion of the bullet will be different. In a spinning body, the internal centrifugal stresses are proportional to the SQUARE of the angular velocity.
We do a thought exercise of comparing the size of the stresses on a lead bullet at terminal impact velocity of 1800 fps with some angular velocities corresponding to an 1800 fps MV, a 2700 fps MV (e.g., 6.5 CM), and a 3000 fps MV (e.g., 6.5 PRC), here, the bullet radius, R, is relevant to the centrifugal stress, which is R=1/2 * 0.264 inches if we are sticking with a 6.5 cartridge thought experiment. Let's assume a barrel twist of 1 in 8" (i.e., 1 twist in 2/3 of a foot).
The relevant stresses are: stresses due to impact in meat (a water-like density material): Fn = 0.5 * (density) * Vt^2, here Vt is the terminal velocity of 1800 fps. Density is a 1000 kg/m^3 and 1800 fps is about 550 m/s, therefore, the stresses due to impact are something like 150 MPa.
The centrifugal stresses are due to the spinning lead (density is about 11x that of water): Fc = 0.5 *(density) * (2*pi * AV)^2 * R^2. If we plug in some of our numbers, we can look at how big the centrifugal stresses are and how they change relative to the MV.
Since we know that angular velocity is going to be directly proportional to MV, we can see that the centrifugal stresses will vary in proportion to the square of the MV.
at 1800 fps MV, we have an angular velocity of about 2700 rotations per second and using appropriate units in our Fc formula, we can see that the centrifugal stresses will be on the order of 18 MPa. This is more than 10% of the impact stresses, so it is a non-negligible contribution to the stress state acting on a bullet undergoing impact.
an MV of 2700 fps generates an angular velocity 1.5x that of an 1800 fps MV, therefore, the centrifugal stresses at this angular velocity are 1.5^2 x more (2.25 X) which is a little over 40 MPa.
an MV of 3000 fps generates an angular velocity 5/3 x that of the 1800 fps MV, and correspondingly a 2.8x larger centrifugal stress, which is a little over 50 MPa.
As you can see, centrifugal stresses in terminal impacts at distance can have stresses approaching 25% -- 33% of those due to the impact velocity alone, and those centrifugal stresses could be missing by 60% from a low MV simulated shot.
The copper jacket is holding the bullet together. The thinner the jacket (e.g., like in match bullets) the weaker the bullet is against centrifugal forces and therefore the more affected its expansion performance will be by the specifics of is angular velocity.
The reason a lot of high velocity, thin-jacketed varmint bullets can "grenade" off of a piece of grass is that the ultra-high velocities generate ultra-high centrifugal forces that the bullet is just barely able to hold itself together against the rotational forces - especially in fast twist rate barrels. Even at long distances, the bullets are still rotating extremely fast that they easily expand/explode readily at the slightest impact.
2) Stability. The long distance bullets that are of interest for the "long range, low velocity impact" tests are typically pushing to the limit of the stability for the twist rates used in the rifles to shoot them. By shooting a low MV, the angular velocity of the bullet may be insufficient to prevent tumbling. It doesn't do any good to simulate a long distance shot with a bullet impacting sideways into the test gelatin.
Great write up! We have actually discussed this, that it's very difficult to truly simulate the long range impact at short ranges. Slowing the velocity is only part of the equation, but it may be all that we can actually do. Whenever possible I'm going to pop in with bullets that were actually recovered from game at various ranges, I've managed to collect quite a few over the years. That should help folks with bullet selection.
Love watching you two characters!
I picked up 2000 pcs of Brass so loaded up 500 rounds using 125gr loads to form to my chamber. I found max then backed off so I could shoot them in winter and summer. Which was fine cause at about 1.5 gr reduced they shot even better. Cheers
Yeah, I'm glad Guy is on this channel too.
Thanks! :)
I run the exact same load in my 20” . 308 with Peterson brass and it yields just over 3200 fps. Haven’t used it on game yet to see first hand how it does but I might have to this year.
Great video!
Thanks!
I don't have a 308, but my 30-06 with the same 125g Nosler is running about 3400 fps. Its my go to load for antelope out to about 400yds. Very accurate and they don't go very far!!
Ya, the good ol' 30-06 can really belt these lighter bullets out at high velocity. Nice to know that you're getting good accuracy.
Seeing a gun that has actually worked against bipedal targets is mumbling. Great video guys, I'm getting closer and closer to hand loading. Thanks for the motivation.
I submit the 100 and 130 gr Cutting Edge Raptors for consideration for a light bullet. They shoot unbelievably well in everything I've tried, have super easy load workup, and awesome terminal performance
I think you all are right, I need to load my own cartridges. I have a .308 carbine and really only want to hunt deer and pigs on the east coast. I need to load a smallish BTSP bullet with just the right powder to burn it all before the bullet exits the 16” barrel at the max velocity I can get.
Great video. I hunt 18" ruger American 308 with 130 ttsx at 2980 fps and works great
There is a lot of love for that little 130 gr Barnes TTSX... You must enjoy that light handy rifle too.
Gavin, you’re the man 👍
Nice! I have been interested in that weight myself for my Savage 340 in 30-30, to get better velocity and juat for the sake of experimentation. I expect about 2500-2550 fps, which should help trajectory. One thing i like is that the irons are nice and crisp, even with my now 49 yr old eyes and bifocals since i was 11. Was planning to try them in 308 as well. Great to hear Guy's results. Did not know he had been a SWAT sniper- that explains some of his rifle knowledge. The BT seems like a good bullet in all bore sizes. I plan to experiment with 140's in 7x57 as well. I was slightly surprised to hear Guy went with a 1:12" rwist. I know the standard is generally 1:10. I am sure he had good well thought out reasons. Great to hear that the rebarreling worked out well. Have always liked the 700 VSS- it seems like a good starting point. Keep Guy coming back. He is great!
im also curious about the twist rate. this is the second time ive heard someone going with one. im sure theres a use case and id like to know what it is
Hey Gavin
Great video Mate , it would be awesome to see more reloading videos for .223 and .308 bolt rifles , nobody seems to be interested in making them any longer with is a pity as heaps of people still own and shoot them over here still being used a lot in competition out to 1000 yards , thanks for your time l love and look forward to every video you put out , Aussie Steve .
Check out some of our more recent threads on the "223 Trainer" that Gavin built. My goodness! Most accurate rifle I've ever shot!
Ballistic gel test 165 partition in decreasing velocities so we can make a call on max range for game; same test for a Barnes would be awesome
I have two light .308 loads.... 125gr Hornady V-max 45gr ImR 3031 CCI BR2 primer and 110gr Speer TNT 46gr varget CCI primer... no idea what velocity but very accurate. Dropped every deer I've shot with them on the spot....(under 200yrds) ....
Re: lethality of lighter bullets. My dad shot many deer over the years with either a 22-250 +55gr nosler BT or a 30-06 +~180 gr rem bronze tip. Every one of the 250 fell in their tracks. Several of the - 06 dripped for a long run. Granted this was a long time ago and one man's experience
Good info, thanks! Ya, a small high velocity bullet can work well. I wonder if those 180 gr Remington bullets weren't opening up quickly enough to drop the deer right away?
Good video guys, Jim Cloward was an awesome gunsmith, rifle builder and shooter, now retired. Old friend and one hell of a guy.
He taught me a fair bit about long range shooting.
@@guyminer3168 me too, the knowledge and experience he has is priceless.
@@larrybassett5559 - for several years I competed with a Win Model 70 308 that Jim had built for Gary Rasmussen. Wow! That thing could shoot! Of course Gary shot it better than I did, but it was quite a rifle. Much respect for Jim and his accomplishments.
@@guyminer3168 Indeed! Another great shooter and nice guy. Pretty rare occurrence if Gary attended a match and didn't 🏆 win overall.
Dang! That'd also be a pretty nice pronghorn load!
Love this mix... I have a 125gr Nosler load that is wicked on hogs...
My go to hunting gun is my Remington 7400 308win... I love that gun....... I haven't reload any ammo for it yet..... maybe in the near future.
I run 110gr ttsx at 1000 m/s with n530 powder in my 308s...works well on everything from roedeer to moose!
What a nice video.. Thanks
I loaded a 30-06 fairly hot with the 125gr NBT as a coyote rifle.. found it dropped deer fast in their tracks also.
Also made armordillo parts hang from trees.
I love my bone stock Remington 700 Police Model . It shoots 1/2 inch clover leaf 5 shot groups @100 yards with 42.8gr Australian AR2206H powder and 168gr Hornady A-Max bullets . I’ll be swapping out the HS Precision stock for an MDT Chassis next week .
Mate I have the Remington vsf in 308 heavy varmint barrel and it always shot moa.
2 years ago dropped it into an mdt lss xl gen 2 as well as a trigger tech trigger and dropped it from moa to under half moa instantly.... You won't regret it...
Look at Barnes 7.62x51 (not .308) load data for their 110 grain bullet. I got 3500+ fps using this data and Ramshot TAC with 24” barrel. The Barnes blue tipped 110 grain TTSX #30362 is a great deer bullet.
My super fast light 308 Winchester load: 125 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet, 51.5 gr of Hodgdon Bl-C2, Lapua brass cases, CCI-BR4 primers. Velocity: 3,242 fps average with a SD 14 fps for 10 shots. Typical group size for a 5 shot group at a target 100 yards away is 0.17 to 0.25 inches c-t-c. My rifle used with this load is a standard production Remington 700 Varmint made in the early 1990 with a 26 inch heavy barrel toped with a Bausch & Lomb 6-24X 40mm target scope.
44 grains of 4064 Lapua Brass CCI LRM primers 175 Berger OTM's. My Labradar says they are cruising at 2821 fps from my 26" 1/8 Schneider barrel. I get teased alot at the matches but it's fun to see their faces when that little pill screams downrange.
Love to see some more light for caliber shows. Everyone seems to go heavy for caliber to get those high BC bullets. Love to see just how the light bullets compare. 110 gr TTSX in a 6.5 PRC or 7mm08. They'd be screaming but how about accuracy. The 308 did great for sure.
130 Barnes. TTSX 46 Grains IMR 4064. OAL 2.775. Work with the OAL and grains and you may have found a good combination.
Bullet technology has improved a lot over the years... Now and days you can get extremely heavy duty lightweight bullets that you can turn the velocity up on them and they hold together instead of fragmenting on impact. My wife and mom really don't like hard bucking cartridges and sense me and my dad both shot Creedmoors already buying 2 more Creedmoors and loading everyone up with a 100 or 120gr Barnes TTSX is what I do and everyone shooting the same bullet it makes loading hunting ammo for everyone a lot easier. I'm getting between 3100-3300fps with an all copper 6.5mm bullet so it's extremely flat shooting, very little recoil, and with the really high weight retention of an all copper bullet we're still getting great penetration. If I remember right I've only recovered 3 or 4 bullets and they were the 100gr bullets but they still retained almost 100% of their original weight. Great video as always keepem coming brother!!!
There is a lot to be said for the performance of the Barnes TTSX, Nosler E Tip, Hornady GMX and the other unleaded bullets. I anticipate testing more of those in the future. Some hunters have to use them because of where they hunt, others choose to for the wonderful on-game performance. We are living in an era with amazingly good hunting bullets available.
@@guyminer3168 I've always been a fan of bonded bullets and still am but when I tried monolithic bullets for the first time in 6.5 Grendel on a thermal hog hunt I was getting complete pass throughs at 200ish yards with the 100gr TTSX on 150 lb hogs I had to start exploring my options with other cartridges. They can be a little finicky with accuracy, a touch on the pricey side and not going to have those really high BC numbers but none of that is a deal killer for me. They're not for everyone but most people I know who put in the effort to getting them to shoot good dont really hunt with anything else now. Take care brother!!!
Great stuff